georgia starting as soon as next months? you can tell me at ari melber on any of the platforms you see. or you can always go to arimelber.com and connect with me there. arimelber.com or tell us @arimelber. is it good the new cases will be televised? thanks for spending the hour with us here at "the beat." and keep it locked on msnbc. . tonight on "the reidout" -- >> if it happened i think you would have problems in this country the likes of which perhaps we have never seen before. i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it. >> what kind of problems, mr. president? >> i think they would have big problems. big problems. >> you know the legacy media will say you're attempting to incite violence with that statement? >> that's not inciting. i'm just saying what my opinion is. i don't think the people of this country would stand for it.

>> donald trump exactly one years ago trying to rile up his maga base if he got indicted in the classified documents case. now we're learning that federal prosecutors warned that trump's knowledge of their efforts to access his twitter account could precipitate violence. and late today, special counsel jack smith asked a judge for a narrow gag order against trump in the election interference case. claiming that trump's inflammatory remarks have led to threats against witnesses and could prejudice the jury pool. and we begin with that breaking news involving the d.c. criminal case against donald trump. in a brand-new court filing, special counsel jack smith is asking judge tanya chutkan to issue a narrow gag order against trump, specifically regarding what he can publicly say about potential witnesses. arguing that his statements could present a serious and substantial danger of prejudicing his election

interference case. the government writes that trump, quote, made clear his intent to issue public attacks related to this case when the day after his arraignment he posted a threatening message on truth social, which stated, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. trump, they write, has made good on his threat, since the indictment in this case, the defendant has spread disparaging and inflammatory public posts on truth social on a near daily basis, regarding the citizens of the district of columbia, the court, prosecutors, and perspective witnesses. like his previous public disinformation campaign. regarding the 2020 presidential election, the defendant's recent extra judicial statements are intended to undermine public confidence in an institution, the judicial system. and to undermine confidence in and intimidate individuals, the court, the jury, the jury pool, witnesses, and prosecutors. the motion goes on to highlight

several screen shots of posts on trump's truth social account, attacking jack smith, judge chutkan, the justice department, and his former vp, mike pence. it also lays out various examples of individuals who have been threatened and harassed after being publicly attacked by trump. the names of those individuals are redacted but our reporters have gleaned that former cisa director chris krebs and georgia election workers ruby freeman and shaye moss are among those cited. joining me is harry lipman, former deputy assistant attorney general and former attorney. charles coleman jr., former brooklyn prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, and lisa reuben, msnbc legal analyst, and i'm going to start with you, lisa, because you have been poring through this filing, so give us the highlights. i have been reading through as well, but i would like to hear your legal eagle read on what this filing entails. >> there are two things i think our viewers should know.

one is the characterization of this as a gag order is i think a little overwrought because what the department of justice and specifically the special counsel is trying to do here is get the judge to impose a narrowly tailored order that would restrict only certain types of judicial statements and in particular, i'm sorry, extrajudicial statements meaning out of court statements, and in particular, statements that i'm reading from the brief right now, regarding the identity, testimony, or credibility of perspective witnesses and statements about any party, witness, attorney, court personnel, or potential jurors that are disparaging and inflammatory or intimidating. you have this reaction already from the far right on twitter saying of course they're trying to gag him. they can't gag all of us, or that's the only way they're going to win this case. the opposite is true. jack smith has a very strong case against donald trump, and all they want to do is try it fairly. if anything, they are trying to insure an atmosphere of fairness

that donald trump himself does not want. >> and you know, charles, we have a history here. this is some of the examples of misleading and inflammatory statements that trump knew or should have known would cause others to harass and harm people. this is from the filing, targeting an individual on twitter because he said there was no election fraud. publicly derogated an individual for certifying the election, resulting in an individual's family getting threats of violence. issued posts threatening a individual certifying the election, threatening communications, targeting an individual on twitter for rejecting one of the defendant's election challenges. resulting in individuals requiring additional police protection. let me play for a minute what happened when donald trump on january 6th tweeted, mike pence didn't have the courage to essentially steal the election and break the law. take a look. >> here is what the president wrote in his 2:24 p.m. tweet, while the violence at the capitol was going on.

and here is what the rioters thought. >> nothing but a traitor and he deserves to burn with the rest of them. it's all escalated after pence. pence didn't do what we wanted. >> pence voted against trump. >> okay, that's when all this started? >> yeah, that's when we march on the capitol. we have been shot at with rubber bullets, tear gas. >> mike pence is not going to reject any fraudulent elector votes. >> charles, that is the quality of donald trump's supporters. if this were a mob boss, being prosecuted, it would be obvious there would need to be some sort of gag order to protect the witnesses. do you think it will be that obvious to the judge that we need one here? >> joy, i do think that it will be pretty obvious for judge chutkan to understand the severity of what she's dealing with. to pick up where lisa left off, i think this is an interesting

collision between donald trump the candidate who we have been talking about and donald trump the defendant. the reason i say that is the court cites or rather the prosecutor cites to a 1966 supreme court case called shepherd versus maxwell. in that case, what it did is allowed the supreme court to take measures in order to protect the fair and impartial trial of any defendant. in this case, however, the interesting thing about it that differs from that case is the notion of a circus like atmosphere is being created by the defendant himself. and so the reason why i say with donald trump the candidate, this is an interesting collision of worlds is because what i anticipate his attorneys are going to argue in their reply brief is that because he's a presidential candidate, it infringes upon his first amendment rights to actively campaign and use social media to campaign. but the genius and brilliance in jack smith's request is he narrowly tailored as lisa talked about the request to basically include court personnel or other individuals who are not necessarily going to be opposing

political parties. the only person who i can think of who might be at risk would be mike pence. other than that, there's no argument to be made his first amendment rights as a candidate will somehow be infringed upon by judge chutkan granting this order. i think it was a great job by the doj and jack smith and i anticipate some version of their request is going to be granted by the court because she does understand this is someone who has a wide platform and his acolytes, his followers, they are prone to action, and when we see them act, we know what happens. >> yeah, and let me play one more. this is ruby freeman testifying. i'll just read it, in the great state of georgia, the great state of georgia did with ruby freeman mess, why not just tell the truth? get rid of the turmoil and guilt and take our country back from the evils and treachery and the radical left monsters who want to see america die. that resulted in ruby freeman getting insane death threats as well as her daughter getting them. she had to move out of her home.

we know what trump is capable of. can he assert he has a right on the campaign trail to attack ruby freeman, to attack judge chutkan, to attack jack smith, because the latter two are a part of his campaign stump speech so far. >> they are, and this is exactly his m.o. so i just want to say that first of all, it's absolutely legitimate what smith is saying and the narrow -- the tailored order is designed specifically to keep him from intimidating witnesses and prejudicing the jury pool. on the other hand, we're really going to the heart of his m.o., and i think lisa read the most important part of the order. it's really not so narrow when you think about trump's desires and technique. and the sort of compelling part of the motion when you see it all together, we have kind of gotten ineured to trump's daily tirades but you see it all and there's an overwhelming since,

not simply that he's letting off steam, but he's trying to get at witnesses, the jury system, the judges and court personnel. so that's what this gag order, and i agree with charles, some version of it will probably be entered, will in fact handcuff him about, they'll say of course, you can still do everything else and protect your first amendment rights. but i think it is designed to hamstring him specifically in some of the things he most wants to do on the campaign trail, and he'll be in, you know, something of a straight jacket if she imposes it. he should be, but of course, that will make the next confrontation all the more likely. >> how do you enforce it, former prosecutor harry lipman? how do you enforce it? >> in the clink. that's what underlies all of this. we have been talking about this since the start. she doesn't want to do it, but she's now come to one more

really strict, if she enters this, command. and at the end of the day, her power is this pretty severe ability to control her courtroom and the case by putting him in jail. i think there would be maybe another warning, another warning, but that's the thing. she's really -- he's really bringing her -- he's burning a fair bit of the rope between him and going into the jail for a short time anyway. >> charles, you don't have to -- we have talked about this before. trying to get witnesses in a mob case is hard enough. trying to get witnesses against donald trump who uses truth social to individually target people. people have had their home addresses posted, pictures of their home posted, names of their children posted. then donald trump's hate troops attacking those people and threatening those people. they threatened federal law enforcement. they're not afraid to threaten

fbi agents. that's where it's gotten. so his people are dangerous, and he knows it, and he uses them against individual people. is there a concern here that it's going to get hard for witnesses to take the chance, if they can't afford to get 24/7 security for themselves? >> joy, i can tell you as a former prosecutor that's always a concern when you have a defendant who is willing to go out and basically spew vitriol and hatred around the proceedings, around the people who are responsible for conducting the proceedings, and also around any of the witnesses you put a direct target on their back. i think judge chutkan's order is likely going to include some allusion to talking about how the world we live in is different now and you could be doxed, you're talking about shaye moss and ruby freeman, both of whom are actually named in the indictment as people they tried to intimidate based off the defendant's efforts here. that's all going to play a factor in how the decision is made.

but i also want to talk about the importance of not tainting a jury. and in the world we live in that is wrought with misinformation, it is very important there is some limit placed on donald trump around how he discusses what's going on at this trial, because that misinformation as we have already seen on so many different occasions, fuels that mob. it fuels his angry followers and makes them believe that something is going on when it really isn't. not only does that erode the trust in our fundamental democracy and our democrat, institutions but it taints the jury pool in such a way where they have preconceived notions about the notion of fairness before they're even sworn in for this trial. >> we're going to talk about this in the next block, but in the other trial, him just saying presidential records act over and over again, i think that's his straltagy to get people to believe there is something to this idea that he's allowed to have documents. but lisa, let's talk timeline. sometimes it seems like donald trump is a little more canny than people give him credit for. he throws this stuff out there and does stuff he knows is going

to invoke filings maybe from people like jack smith, and then there's time you have to litigate that. what kind of a timeline should we be looking at for there to be a decision on whether this limited gag ord happens? >> judge chutkan in unsealing this brief earlier today said that donald trump has until september 25th to respond to it. the government then has until september 30th to file its reply, and then we should expect a decision from her, i think, relatively shortly after. i should note also for your audience that all the pretrial filings that donald trump has due in this case to get ready for trial, those are all due on october 9th. the window of time, even though it feels like we have a lot of time between now and march when the trial is supposed to begin, the windows of time are really shortening for both the judge and the litigants here. but i want to call your attention to one more thing. it's not just about the fairness here. i really want to underscore the safety risk and the safety concerns here. because one of the things that the government is saying is that people involved in the criminal

justice process, whether they are u.s. marshals or court security officers or potential jurors, they will read and hear what donald trump has to say on truth social or on television, and they may reasonably fear, this is the government's words, they could be the next targets of his attacks. so this is not an effort to clamp down on trump and his lawyers just because of what they might do to the trial. they raise time and again the threats to individual people and how it threatened their security. i should note also that 2:24 tweet about mike pence you noted earlier, in the indictment in this case, that's followed immediately by the fact that mike pence was evacuated from the capitol by his secret service detail at 2:25. so trump's words have consequences. they are not always consequences that he himself carries out, but he's well aware of had fact his followers are hanging on his every word and the department of justice and the special counsel's office are trying to take precautionary measures to

insure the safety and security of anyone and everyone who might be involved in the case and also just personnel involved in the administration of justice writ large. because it really does impact federal prosecutors and federal agents all across the country right now, including judge chutkan herself who was threatened by a woman in texas who has since been arrested who called up the chambers and made a threat. these are not idle concerns. >> they're not idle concerns. it's not theoretical. >> very quickly, we have to go to break. >> we compare him to a mob boss. in this way he's worse because he says things and then lone wolfs, go out and do things, you never know know they're going to come from. that makes it a grave concern for judge chutkan. >> absolutely. lisa reuben, thank you. harry and charles are sticking with me to talk about trump's burning desire to testify in his own defense for some reason, because apparently, he hasn't done enough damage already with his repeated public confessions. "the reidout" continues after this. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network

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one of donald trump's greatest weaknesses is that he does not know when to stop talking. much to the chagrin of his lawyers, and in his trial involving classifies documents all of his public comments which he seems to think is boosting his defense, turn out to be admissions to the crimes he's accused of. he provided yet another confession, saying this is all about the presidential records act. i'm allowed to have these

documents. i'm allowed to take these documents, classified or not classified. frankly, when i have them, they become unclassified. people think you have to go through a ritual. you don't. in my opinion, you don't. no, actually, you do. none of that word salad is true, and when reminded by someone on his side that once he was subpoenaed by the fbi, he was obligated to turn over all the documents, he did a head turning 180 within seconds saying, i know this. i don't even know that. because i have the right to have those documents. so i don't really know that. and they question biden's mental acuity. mind you, this is the guy who had said multiple times in the past ten days he's looking forward to testifying under oath at his trials, and if you listen really carefully, you might actually be able to hear trump's lawyers banging their heads against the wall. remember, this is also the guy who in the days following the search of mar-a-lago and again earlier this year, claims that perhaps anything found at his resort was potentially planted

there by the fbi. and since those first days he has also made repeated public confessions to the charges against him. >> i had every right to under the presidential records act. you have the presidential records act. i was there, i took what i took. and it gets declassified. just so you understand, i had every right to do it. i didn't make a secret of it. >> in other words, whatever documents a president decides to take with him, he has the absolute right to do so. that's the law. and it couldn't be more clear. >> if you're the president of the united states, you can declassify just by saying it's declassified. even by thinking about it. because you're sending it to mar-a-lago or to wherever you're sending it. >> as president, you have every right to have these documents, personal belongings and whatever else there is. >> many people have asked me why i had these boxes. why did you want them? the answer in addition to having every right under the presidential records act is that these boxes were containing all

types of personal belongings. many, many things. shirts and shoes and everything. i hadn't had a chance to go through all the boxes. it's a long, tedious job. takes a long time, which i was prepared to do, but i have a very busy life. i have had a very busy life. >> yeah, when the president does it, it's not illegal, said richard nixon. it's completely understandable with the upcoming trials so many believe this to be the most open and shut case against him. and that that only becomes more clear each time he appears opcamera confessing to the crimes. if someone were really trying to help him out, the only option at this point would be to delay or slow down the proceedings to keep the trial from starting. perhaps in the way we're seeing things play out in judge aileen cannon's court in florida. returning with me, back with me are harry lipman and charles coleman skrr. donald trump's argument is designed to spoil the jury pool

and get jurors to think presidential records act means he can have them, taint the jury pool. that seems to be the only explanation that makes sense to me. he cannot be dim enough to believe that because you're president for four years everything shown to you at that time belongs to you. that's like saying i stayed in this airbnb for four days therefore i can clean the place out and take it home with me. or i have a job and when i leave my job, i get to take everything in my office that was the work product of my profession and take it home. no one believes that. but do you think this is a successful attempt to poison the jury pool? >> joy, i'll put it this way. if i have $100 ipmy bank account and go to the bank and take $100 out of their safe without telling anyone or talking to anyone and walk out, it doesn't matter if can believe that money is mine. i'm going to jail for burglary because i have stolen $100. it's really that simple. what donald trump believes and what he talks about believing has no bearing on what the actual law says and what the actual law is. for those of us who are not

lawyers, i'll make it plain in terms of what defense attorneys attempt to do. you deny what you can't admit and admit what you can't deny. donald trump cannot deny that those boxes and those papers were there, so he's admitted that. he said of course i had those documents, of course they were at mar-a-lago. these are things i had a right to do. that's the part he can't admit. he can't admit he knew he wasn't supposed to say these things. he wasn't supposed to have these things. so any notion of admitting guilt with respect to the responsibility that he had with those documents are things he's going to continue to deny because if he doesn't, it's a flat out admission and this is an open and shut case. be clear, it's open and shut case anyway because we already know absent the admissions of him knowing that he wasn't supposed to have these, there are so many different things he's done throughout the course of this timeline that shows that he was aware in fact that he had not declassified these things, that he did not have any right to them and he was supposed to turn them over.

i want to point out for viewers, even though he talks about it wasn't a secret, he also orchestrated a dry run when he knew federal investigators were going to come to his property to try to get them because he didn't want to turn these documents over. this is not someone who acted without the mens rea or the mental capacity of knowing that he did not have or that he had something he wasn't supposed to. this is not going to work. it's not going to fly, and ultimately, i think the prosecution and jack smith are doing to be able to make a straightforward case in front of the jury that won't be tainted by the very weak argument. >> if it ever goes to trial, harry, because it does seem like the judge is dragging it. i took the liberty of speaking with somebody who has an association with the apprentice and this person confirmed to me when you're on the apprentice, the show donald trump used to be on, you do all these projects. i never watched it, but when you're on it, you do these projects and stuff and create like products. there's a lot of product placement. when you leave the apprentice, you don't get to take that with you. he knows that's how things work,

so he knows this is bs. but is he benefitting right now from the fact that there is a judge in florida who seems more than happy to drag out this open and shut case so that it is pushed into what may be somebody around there hopes is his presidency? >> sure he is, and he's already eaten up a month and a half or so, and he's just got to go another four or five. but i just want to say, charles is right down the line, and to summarize, it doesn't matter what he thinks the law is. all these admissions are making clear he's done the conduct in the indictment, but even so, he's also made admissions that show he does know it's illegal. remember, he says to people who are there, i could have declassified this before but i didn't so it really puts the lie to the notion it happens automatically. he's the worst client in the world. it's just admission after admission after admission.

and it's not going to be cleaned up at trial by his testimony. that is false bravado, axiom number one is donald trump won't testify. so his ability even to make this kind of defense is very thread bare at best. look, i think it's only for the public consumption, and that's the whole bet that he's making, but he has no real prospect of winning a trial. he does have a prospect, of course, or a hope that it goes past the election and he wins the election, and then at least the federal cases he can make go away. >> to stay with you for a second, i want to switch to hunter biden for a minute. i have a question. i think you might have talked about this on "morning joe" earlier today. if prosecutors made a deal with hunter biden that they were going to adjudicate this case and put him in pretrial diversion, how can they go back on that incan't his lawyers say no, you have to live with this thing. you signed it, and number two, apparently the law that he's

being prosecuted under for the gun crime is a law that's being challenged as unconstitutional. so what happens if that law is then found to be unconstitutional? >> okay, so on the second question, he was charged both with lying on forms and possessing it. if that law is found to be unconstitutional because the second amendment rights expand to people who have used drugs, the third count goes away. i think, though, the first two stay. i think if he's lied about it, some would say oh, it's not material then, that's a legal requirement, but you lie on that form, even if it goes away, i think he's still in the soup. and as to the -- i'm sorry, remind me of the first question. >> being if there was an agreement to put in a pretrial diversion and both his lawyers and the prosecutors signed it -- >> yeah, a plea agreement is a contract, but a contract has to be stitched up. so there are some open ended

things, did probation sign, what happened in court? it's an argument he has. it's not air tight. all the things that you think about the prosecution, i think a lot of them do, can't necessarily be remedies in court. and this is one of them. he'll have an argument. got a very good lawyer. but is it really completely stitched up enough to be enforceable? iffy. >> we'll see. okay. i wanted to clear that up. harry lipman and charles coleman jr., thank you. we want to make sure dad is the coleman. he's junior. thank you very much. still ahead, republican congresswoman lauren boebert is caught in a lie before being kicked out of a theater as they double down on dangerous vaccine information. what a time to be alive. more next. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50.

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the republican party is really really good at preaching a militant message of family values wrapped in christian conservatism. what they do privately is an entirely different story. take for example colorado congresswoman laurent boebert. earlier this week, the sarah palin on the western slope was escorted out of a denver performance of beetle juice. police reports state that boebert was unruly, taking flash photography, singing and dancing all throughout the show. and here's the best part. the pro-life quote/unquote

congresswoman was also accused of vaping during the show in front of a pregnant woman, no less. the woman kindly asked her to stop, but boebert tossed out her pro-baby values as they now like to call it, and ignored the woman. after multiple warnings, she and her new parahour allegedly an aspen liberal, were given the boot, but not before asking do you know who i am and giving the usher the single finger salute. her representatives denied the claim of vaping. as you can imagine, that wasn't the truth. as you can tell clearly from the video of boebert vaping. it should come as no surprise her office lied because lying seems to be another thing maga misfits have adopted from donald trump whose lies have gotten him indicted in florida, new york, and washington, d.c. joining me now is fernand amandi, democratic pollster and msnbc political analyst and wendy oseffo, democratic strategist and assistant professor at the johns hopkins

university school of education. thank you both for being here. there apparently is no penalty for not just lying, not just vaping in front of a pregnant woman, although they claim to be pro-baby. and apparently also not being with your husband anymore and having a new man. christian values. your thoughts. >> well, first off, what the fog machine is she talking about? that's not even a quasi-decent lie. when it comes from the mouth of laurent boebert. i understand she's got to let her freak flag fly a little bit when she thinks the camera is not on, and i understand she's got the stress of being on 24/7 lying talking points, but again, to do that, knowing that she's in front of a pregnant woman, and not, i guess, knowing she was on camera, i think just speaks to what the republican party is today. a party that will invent an alternate reality to suit its needs and justify its grievances

every step of the way. so are we shocked? no. i'm just a little disappointed with the what the fog machine lie. she's got to come up with something better than that. >> we live in an era where women are being stripped of their right to an abortion in state after state, driven by republicans. and they are saying it's because they have these values that they say are christian. and yet, you have multiple members of their party, women and men, donald trump on the male side, this person, laurent boebert, but also marjorie taylor greene, there's no penalty apparently. i thought they were against no-fault divorce, but apparently it doesn't matter. they can do whatever they want in terms of relationships in and out of their marriages and there's no penalty from their christian base. does that make sense to you? >> it makes absolutely no sense, and it's clear as the kids would say, she was caught in full k. when you're caught on camera doing something, and then your team still goes on and denies it, it's quite laughable.

it seems as though the republican party only cares about values when their feet are on capitol hill, but it's not about values when you're doing the responsibilities of your job. it's about values when you're at home, when you are outside of the camera, what do you stand for? after everything transpired, she went on her social media, decided to taunt people by letting them know, let me know what happened at the end of the show because i wasn't able to catch it. it seems like she didn't have any level of remorse. even when she was caught with her hand in the proverbial cookie jar, she decided to double down and let people think it was a laughable. i think it's paramount to what the republican party stands for. they want to destow upon people what they think are the right values, bestow on people what they think is the right conduct and behavior. when it comes to their own selves, ie donald trump, they do not do what they say they stand for. i think this is another mosaic of what the republican party often lies to people and is often smoke, fog, and mirrors.

>> yeah, and we have a look at the taste level of some of these voters on the republican side. you have to want someone more dignified. i think you should want more for yourself. let me go back to you, fernand. let's talk about florida. we have to talk about your state, my former state. white is the surgeon general of florida lying about vaccines again and making it official policy now telling people not to get boosters? >> well, look, i want to draw a clear picture. what we saw with lauren boebert certainly lying, certainly devious lying. but there's a fine line between lying and looking like a fool in the process, as opposed to what's happening in florida where these lies are very cavalierly costing people and potentially costing people their lives over this misinformation. i know for a fact there are people that have died in the state of florida believing the covid misinformation on not taking vaccines. we had a whole host of republican maga types on spanish

language television here talk specifically about how the virus was going -- sorry, how the vaccine would give you cancer, and a lot of people delayed taking it and died as a result of this. these are life and death lies, joy. that is even more problematic. now, why is desantis doing this? of course we know why. he's trying to double down and do whatever he can to put some life into this corpse which is his campaign by continuing to appeal to the ultra right. he's not going to beat donald trump. his candidacy for president is over, so i don't understand the forward thinking of this, but it is consistent with how he has behaved in this very cavalier, disinformation, and misinformation style when it comes to issues like this, the most precious type of life and death. >> yeah, they're embarrassing lies and they're dangerous lies. thank you for making that distinction. fernand and wendy are sticking around. they're going to play who won the week. you should stick around too. you should stick around too.

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felt like if you did not announce that you are getting a divorce or separation this week, then you, my friend, have won. congratulations. >> mazel. you won the week, it sounds like, funand. as far as i know, you and your cutie are doing great. you want to add anybody else? >> tough to top that one. i'm going to go with the guy who came out with a blow torch and a flame thrower this week. mitt romney saying adios suckers to the republican party. he gets it. he understands what this election is about. it's not about the economy. it's about democracy. and he said most people in my party today no longer believe in the constitution. for that moment of truth and courage, mitt romney won the week. >> i love that. by the way, jason and i also won the week, so i'm happy about that. wendy, i appreciate you. my winner though is of course the great coco gauff. icon in the making, granddaughter of a grandma that

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to move forward as a nation, we cannot allow concerns about discomfort to displace knowledge, truth, or history. i know that atrocities like the one we are memorializing today are difficult to remember and relive. but i also know that it is dangerous to forget them. we cannot forget because the uncomfortable lessons are often the ones that teach us the most about arson's. >> that was the first black woman to serve on the supreme court, justice ketanji brown jackson. already incorporated, i should add -- speaking today at the 16th street baptist church in birmingham, alabama. on this date, 60 years ago, three weeks after the 1963 march on washington, just before 11 a.m. on a sunday, a dynamite bomb planted by ku

klux klan members exploded during the church's annual youth day. dozens of congregation members were injured in the blast. while in a church basement, for young girls were killed, 14-year-old addie mae collins, cynthia wesley, and carole robertson. an 11 year old carol denise mcnair. a fifth little girl, adding her sister sarah, survived the explosion. and joining me now is sarah collins rudolph, survivor of the 1963 16th street baptist church bombing. and latosha brown, cofounder of black voters matter, and the southern black girls and women consortium. thank you both for being here. i do want to start with you, miss collins rudolph, how should we think about what happened to you 60 years later? what have we as a society learn from it? >> well, we have learned from it that we, you know, we want to know the end, not to hurt one another, because there was so much racism going on during

that time. and in this time, we needy we really need to change our hearts because god is -- so we needed to get together because if those girls were here today, we don't know what they would have been. so we would have stopped all the violence. >> amen. and, latosha, i know that you found it on your southern black girls organization in memory of these little girls who perished from birmingham. tell us why you did that? how they inspired you? >> you know, growing up in alabama, as a little black girl, when i am thinking about even the time when we say little black girls, oftentimes, the only time that is said, it's associated with terrible things that happened to these children, a kind of hate that actually killed these children. we still see that on some level

even in our communities, where we actually see in schools the young girls, or we see the marginalization of black women and black girls, and the lack of funding in the south, and the support that black girls and women need. so in part it's inspired by the legacy of these young woman but it's also around how we build a better society that black girls and all children will be safe. >> and miss rudolph, let me ask you this. we've been having these conversations about reparation. and there are people who are living witnesses and victims of the horrors of the past that people are now trying to hide and bury. and i wonder for you, have you ever received compensation from the state of alabama? as anything, anything been done to try to write what was done to you and your sister and your friends? >> no, i haven't received any compensation. and i know that i deserve it because of what our history, it

was about racism and hatred. they haven't given me anything. and i had lost my rights, and the bombing. i know i should have compensation received for my injuries. >> you should. and, you know, latosha, this is the thing, you think about all the history. you have governor george wallace ten days before these growth were murdered saying what these countries need is a few first-class funerals and some political funerals too. eventually, the three of the clan members who were involved in these bombings were convicted, one in 77, one in 2000, one in 2002. they all died in prison. there was some justice. and then more irony, doug jones, the former senator from alabama, he was the prosecutor in that case. so these are not ancient history. doug jones, the senator from alabama, he was literally there. do you feel sometimes doing that work that we do, that we take every step forward like

three steps back, because we don't seem able to get past the ugliness of the era that miss collins rudolph suffered in. >> on the contrary, we refused to actually face and deal with racism. when justice ketanji jackson said today that at the end of the day, we have an element in this country that said we don't even want all the history of what happened. so you can't even correct it. and so, what we have to really be able to recognize is it wasn't just what happened then. the hatred that happened then that led to this, it's the same kind of rhetoric from the people who are running for president. we are seeing that from trump. we are seeing that from desantis. at the end of the day, racial hate leads to violence and the killing and the murder of innocent people just like those four girls. for not standing up against desantis and his likes at the moment, we're just as guilty. we have blood on our hands. >> absolutely. i'll give you the last word, sarah collins rudolph, what do you want us to do to move forward? what do you think is the best

advice for us? >> well, we got a trust in god. you know, that's one thing. after being injured, i got a lot of hate and sad to me for what happened and for what happened to my sister in birmingham. just we went to god, because the devil came to destroy -- >> well, it's not sunday. but you can't get and amen. sarah collins rudolph, and my friend latosha, brown, thank, you thank you very much. that is tonight's reidout. all in with chris hayes starts now. now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> with evening from new york. i am chris hayes. our lead story tonight is that the candidacy of donald trump for president is a national emergency, four alarm fire threat to democracy. and i can hear you saying to