that kind of writing can do. so i appreciate your writing. thank you for coming on. >> see you in philly. >> do not forget, msnbc.com slash with broadcast tour. scan the qr could on your screen, buy tickets to our live show in philadelphia, on october 16th. naomi we'll be there. we will have an extended version of this conversation. joy reid will be there as well. and i personally cannot wait. that is all in for this week. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> alex wagner will be selling cheese sandwiches out of the back of her deep vw hoping to get a ticket. a miracle if you. well >> we will hook you up. >> into the with pod live show. congratulations on finishing out this week strong, my friend. >> thank you very much. it was dragging towards the end, but i made it. >> you made it on a high not, alone night in terms of american society, but a high note in terms of content. as always. >> have a great weekend. >> you too. thanks to at-home for joining me this evening. it is friday night. we are on the verge of finding out the answer to a question that has been hanging over this country for eight years, can

anyone or anything stop donald trump from lying to the american public? we are learning new details about a request from special counsel, jack smith. who is asking a d.c. federal court to restrict trump's public comments about that case ahead of the trial, which is scheduled for march 4th of next year. smith's team writes in this filing, since the grand jury returned an indictment in this case, the defendant has repeatedly and widely disseminated public statements attacking the citizens of the district of columbia, the court, prosecutors, and prospective witnesses. through his statements, the defendant threatens to undermine the integrity of these proceedings, and prejudice the jury pool. put simply, those involved in the criminal justice process, who read and hear the defendants disparaging and inflammatory messages, from court personnel, to prosecutors, to witnesses, to potential jurors, may reasonably fear that they could be the next targets of the defendants

attacks. the special counsel then goes on to say a laundry list of trump's social media posts and public comments, disparaging anyone and anything related to his various indictments. the prosecution cites, trump's vague but ominous all caps threat to the day after his arraignment, warning, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. for the record, trump campaign claimed that that statement was about his political opponents. okay. prosecutors cite trump's various attacks on judge tanya chutkan, herself, the person overseeing trump's 2020 election case in federal court, who he has called a fraud dressed up as a judge. a radical obama hack, and a biased trump hating judge. the prosecution cites trump's attacks on the city of washington d.c., which trump has called a filthy and crime ridden district that is over 95% anti trump. and the prosecution cites trump's repeated attacks on,

well, the prosecution. in the special counsel himself. look okay, so if the judge, judge chutkan, chooses to grant the prosecution's motion here, it could mean that donald j trump will be legally prohibited from his chosen strategy to undermine institutions and sow doubt and resentment, and escape accountability. that strategy being the strategy of flooding the airwaves with false, inflammatory, and derogatory statements. now, this unredacted motion from jack smith's team was released today, but it was actually filed ten days ago. that means that trump and his lawyers have known all along, and especially in the last ten days, that his public comments were going to come under scrutiny from the court. yet, both unsurprisingly and unbelievably, trump has continued, throughout the last days and the last ten days, to make wild and irresponsible, and possibly legally perilous

public statements. this is trump talking to conservative radio host, hugh hewitt, last week. >> you are confident on these cases? you don't think you are going to be behind a defendant table throughout the entire campaign, crippled and unable to campaign? >> i mean, you know, if i am, if i am, it's going to show what a fake deal it all is. it's all fake. it's all just fake stuff. >> do you want to televised? >> they made it up in order to interfere with the election. this was election interference at the highest level. >> here he was just yesterday, with an interview with another conservative broadcaster, meghan kelly. i will note, just for everybody listening at home, this interview includes some very strange video edits that we are not responsible for. take a listen. >> we have a deranged guy named jack smith, who has been overturned at the supreme court a number of times. you talk to me about all of the different prosecution, these are prosecutions. these are biden indictments.

there is a crooked politician. he said, indict my political opponent. >> even today, while responding on social media to this unsealed motion, trump again referred to the special counsel as deranged. twice. as der anged. all of this, the lies, the allegations, the threats, are presumably going to factor into the judges decision on this. the question is, can the court to actually stop donald trump from attacking the people who might put him in jail? can anything? joining me now is the washington post columnist, philip bump. and former federal prosecutor, joyce vance. oh, on a friday night. thank you for joining me guys. joyce, first of all, it's wonderful to see you in person. i love -- what practically is the special counsel asking the court to do here? >> here's the problem. you know and i know that when trump calls jack smith deranged, so what? >> it's become the norm.

>> it has. i worry, frankly, that we are a little bit too immune to. that there is a big wide jury pull out there in d.c., down in florida. the problem is people who aren't following carefully, but who may be called to jury service. what do they take away from these sorts of tweets and comments? the judges shown some sensitivity to prejudice over the jury pool overtime. >> that seems like a huge concern for everybody involved in this. philip, asking donald trump to not call, for example, jack smith deranged, it's like asking a very hungry toddler not to reach into the cookie jar, right? it seems impossible that this will -- it's clearly not the threat of it is not cowing him. it seems almost antithetical to his brand as a politician at this point. do you think -- i mean, what is your expectation in terms of how this affects his campaigning? >> i think that fundamentally, if it can be pressed upon him that this does him harm, he may

scale it back. there are ways in which he can say, hey, i think it's possible. we've seen him do some checking up himself in the past. not to a broad extent. but this is really -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt, but what is the best example of that? >> you put me on the spot. i was going to sense that it occurred. >> there were moments, the one-week stretch where he said allege, he used the word alleged in some of his rights. in terms of real behavioral change? >> no, this is fair. he's never been held to account. this is what this is what we're really talking about. no one has really ever held him to account. the thing i found most striking, actually, about the filing, was its recognition that he does this for political purposes, right at the top, the line that is drawn is between his attacking the people in his cases, and his inciting people before january 6th. he there recognized that he is doing this because he sees the political strategy as his legal strategy. i think that's very smart and correct. and i think that's the important thing that they are trying to tamp down. making sure that it is clear

that they are also cognizant that's what he's doing. >> i do wonder when we talk about the incentives to behave himself, judge chutkan, at the outset of this, at the beginning of this process, said, i may decide to move up the trial for. effectively, depending on how you behave yourself. do you think that's a possibility here? >> so, here's the problem. how far is the judge prepared to go to enforce her order? it would be, i think, difficult, if she decided, for instance, to put him in custody. that is something you can do. issue a complete gag order. you can't talk about this case at all. that would be difficult to do, because he's a political candidate. we protect political speech in this country. >> yeah. >> so i think what you point to, this notion that she can speed up the trial, she can do it some, she can't do it too far. or she would run the risk of creating an issue on appeals for trump, violation of my deep process rights. he could use if he is convicted.

>> march 6th is really soon, joyce. >> she's very limited in what you can do here. that's why this gag order that the government has proposed, which is very limited in scope, very, very narrow. it essentially says, you can't say bad things about witnesses, you can't say things that in danger courthouse staff. that may be the best she can do. the question is what do you do if trump violates? it >> right, also, i think there's this sort of martyr complex here too. donald trump would seem, philip, relish, a gag order. then he could tweet about a gag. order in the same way he's like i need and never indictment to become president again in 2024. >> yes, anything that happens, he's going to try to spin it as being politically advantageous. the entire framing of this. his framing to his base that they are doing this to me because they're coming after you. which has been very effective and successful. even though to an objective observer it's baffling. everything is framed in the same context. everything is framed the political lens. yes, whatever happens, he'll be

able to spin it. i just want to point out, i thought of an example. he wore a mask one day. remember, during the covid pandemic. >> he had covid when he wore the mask. >> oh, yes he actually wore it ones. >> right, it's almost as if he's during the judge, and the prosecution -- the fact that this drug request was filed ten days ago. trump's lawyers knew very well that it had to do with trump's speech. you saw how trump curtailed his speech, which is to say, not at all. joyce, i would love to get your thoughts on other comments trump has made in interviews that could potentially exacerbate his legal peril. this is -- i think this is sound one, yes. trump talking about a subpoena and the documents in the mar-a-lago case. this is with meghan kelly, let's take a listen. >> all i know is i'm allowed to have those documents. >> but once you get a subpoena, you have to turn them over. >> i know this. i don't even know that.

i have the right to have those documents. >> do you catch that? i know this. he admits that a subpoena means you have to turn over the documents, then immediately in the next freeze says i don't know this. >> you know it's actually happening there? his lawyers talk to him about what he can do. the first phrase comes out of his mouth, he thinks, oh dear, i'm in trouble with the lawyers. so he shifts skier. this is something he's so used to doing. truth is, no barrier. trump says one thing, says something that is diametrically opposing. he just doesn't usually do it in two back-to-back sentences. this is glaring. some place the doj, there's a young prosecutor, or someone who's taking all of these clips and they are making a big book of them in case donald trump really does take the witness stand in one of these cases. the cross-examination will be lethal. >> yeah, this is all admissible. everything he is saying to meghan kellyanne hugh hewitt's theoretically some minimal. >> --

he's opened the door, it all comes out. >> then, philip, there is the political peril here about his comments regarding the impeachment inquiry, and what is actually at the root of that. can we play that? i believe that is sound too. >> nancy pelosi, crazy nancy said, we are going to impeach him. i think had they not done it to me, i'm very popular in their region, i like me, they like them. the republican party, perhaps you wouldn't have it been done to them. >> admitting that the impeachment inquiry into president biden and his son is really retribution for the impeachment proceedings against trump. if you are a house republican, that is not something -- that's not commentary you necessarily need right now. >> agreed. obviously, part of the goal here is to, from donald trump's perspective, remember, he's been advocating to some extent, we know his allies have been advocating explicitly to have these expunged, have them wiped off the record. he sees these as black marks, whether or not he's willing to admit it.

what he's doing here is he is basically saying that was all nonsense. therefore, we are responding. all it is about diminishing what happened to him, less than it is about what is happening to president biden. >> it's also basically burnishing his own -- and attempt to burnish's own record, while recapping the guys in congress who are effectively his foot soldiers. if that's not the trumpiest thing that you can do, and on television, or whatever that was with mailing -- megyn kelly. weird video edits. philip, thank you for your wisdom, your thoughts, your person in the flush on this friday night. joyce vance, please stick around. it is a very, very big friday for all of us here at 30 rock. because the #sistersinlaw, barbara mcquade, jill wine-banks, kimberly atkins stohr, and of course, joyce vance, they are also, all of them, here in new york. in a major reunion. they said it couldn't be done. here we have some of the sharpest legal minds in america on television, we have so very

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new restrictive order we are learning about tonight in the federal criminal case against donald trump over the 2020 election. there is a bunch of other stuff happening in the wild world of trump trials. today, fulton county judge, scott mccarthy, ordered subpoenas to be sent to 900 perspective jurors for the set -- first trial and d.a. fani willis's r.i.c.o. case. jury selection in that trial for trump lawyers kenneth chesebro, and sidney powell, that starts on october 23rd. now, donald trump himself is not going to be tried on that date. but he is almost certainly paying close attention to jury selection here. that is because a criminal trial requires a unanimous verdict from the jury. and all trump, or any of his codefendants will ultimately need here, is one juror to vote not guilty. and even though fulton county, where the jury pool will be drawn from, is so deep blue that trump lost to biden by 47

percentage points, even there, there is hope for trump. if you remember, last, week upon the release of the report by the special purpose grand jury, that recommended indicting trump in the first place, we got to see the breakdown of how those special grand jurors actually voted. and every time donald trump's name was mentioned in that report, there was at least one juror who voted not to indict. joining me now, i am so honored to announce, are the co-hosts of the #sistersinlaw podcast. former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, barb mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, joyce vance, litigator turned journalist, kimberly atkins stohr, and former department of justice prosecutor, who of course worked on watergate, the great, jill wine-banks, the sisters in law. i feel it chill running down my spine. it's historic all the brainpower at this table. mine is adjacent. friends, barb, let me start

with you. the idea that they are going to have to find a jury in this trial on its own is difficult. but multiple juries for the presumed multiple trials we are going to have in fulton county. how much of an uphill climb is that? >> it is an uphill climb. but i think it's important to understand that you don't have to find jurors who have never heard of donald trump before. that would be impossible. but you do have to find jurors who will agree to decide the case based solely on what they hear in court. not what they have heard in the media, or what they've discussed with their friends. so, those will be the kinds of questions they are asking jurors. not so much what have you heard and what do you know, but can you be fair in this case? they will ask a number of questions to delve into that. because i think that that might be the biggest hazard to jack smith, frankly, or in fawn fulton county, to fani willis, is a holdout juror. the evidence might be strong, but if you have one, as you mentioned that you saw in the grand jury process, that could take the whole thing. that's what the government will be looking to avoid. >> kimberly, i wonder how you

read that special purpose grand jury all results, if you will. no one no vote every time trump's name is mentioned. and whether, legally speaking, is that unusual? and what kind of -- how did you interpret that? in terms of what lies ahead for jury selection. >> it's not unusual. it's not -- it doesn't indicate necessarily that this is a trump supporter. we've had other cases where there were people on juries that trump went before, who were supporters, but still found him liable in the case, for example, in the e. jean carroll case. still found him liable. the fact that fulton county is mostly blue isn't the goal either. somebody can be a supporter or an opponent of a political character, but still be able to look at the evidence put forward. still know that the prosecutor has the burden of proving it. and still make that determination at the end. i think the biggest thing here is time. in fulton county, fani willis has another r.i.c.o. case. the jury selection has been

going on for months and months, and months. without anybody being seated yet. if she is going against the clock, that is what i have a big question about, whether she will be able to even c.j. jury before the election, let alone get a trial. going >> and multiple potential trials. jill, i think judge mcafee has said, oh, we are going to finish jury selection by early november. does that seem overly ambitious? >> with a speedy trial act request, they have to go to trial by the time that was set by the courts, by the law. so he has said, i'm going to stay here longer than normal hours, if i need to. and i'm going to restrict the number of questions you can ask. and that's it. so he is intent on getting the jury seated, and swarm, before november 4th. in order to start the trail. >> i guess to barb's point, knowing what the jury's -- potential biases are, and getting to the bottom of that

at the outset seems imperative. if you are working in an abbreviated fashion, do you worry that there may not be a full plumbing of the depths, if it were? >> yes, but i'm one of those people who really believes in the jury system. i would turn to the manafort case, where there was a really strong trump supporter, who said after the trial, talking to the press, i believe everything donald trump says. but i was sworn as a juror to make my decision based on the evidence i heard in this courtroom. and i voted to convict him on every single count, because the evidence showed it. i think that people will take seriously their oath. now, it doesn't mean you aren't going to have some creepy guy -- or woman, who says i'm going to not vote for conviction of him no matter what, to themselves. but doesn't say any of the things to the lawyers questioning him. so, it is a risk. it's definitely a risk. >> especially in these polarized times where donald trump is such a divisive figure, and peoples allegiance to him

is based in large part on a motion, and it's a construct no one can seem to break. joyce, there is concern about the jury selection, and jury tainting, all over the place. in parts of the order that the motion that the special counsel filed that was unsealed in part today, we learned that they are concerned about donald trump's defense team polling the jury. i will read an excerpt. because of the potential prejudice that jury polling may cause, the government respectfully requests that the court set forth a process to review efforts by either party to engage in contacts with members of the jury veneer a, in this district, i apologize for the latin, this was in there, undertaken for the purpose of discussing case specific facts, including any pretrial survey, poll, focus group, or similar study. i read that, what do you talking about? poll, survey, focus group with potential jury members. what is that? yes, so jury selection has

become a matter of science, or at least of social science. in these high value cases, there are companies that will go out, and they will pull communities to get a profile of what juries might look like. it can be a fairly intrusive process. if you've got enough funding to do it. it might be telephone surveys, there are different ways of doing it. so the judge has done something really smart here. for one thing, she has put this time constraint on it. if you are going to pull, you've got to be done in 30 days before trial begins. that gives people time to get a little bit of distance from the experience. she has also said that they can only use any kind of jury science, if she signs off in advance. i assume she will have very strict parameters that she will impose. >> just to be clear, barb, the reason they might be the focus group-ing a jury pool is to make the case that there is no way trump can get a fair trial in washington d.c.? is that sort of the endgame here, in theory? >> i think it could be part of

it. in a general case, it might just be, we want to get a feel for what the people in this community think about this case. we might shape our defense in a certain way, depending on the kinds of answers we get from these people. but, to your point, i think the concern is they are actually going to take the jury pool. one of the things asked for and that request is that there be no suggestion of what the facts are in the case. because you can imagine, donald trump objected full spots into the jury pool. they don't remember where they heard it in court, or they heard. it they end up acquitting based on some facts that aren't even part of the case. i also think, to your, 0.1 of the goals might be to say, look judge, we pole to this community. judge, we pole to this community. they are all against donald, trump we should change venue from washington d.c. to some other area where you view more favorably. >> -- donald trump is out there tweeting about washington d.c., full disclosure, my hometown is a 95% anti trump filthy crime

ridden hole. that does not seem to be someone who is going to spend any capital trying to convince the people, the good men and women of washington d.c. that donald trump is innocent. it sounds like someone who wants to get the hell out of dodge. >> right, it's someone who wants to take the jury pool, so that they can say, oh, i can't get a fair trial. i live in washington d.c.. i can say, not only is that the goal, but the people in washington d.c. are also pretty savvy. they really don't care what donald trump may post on social media about them. they have the ability to put things aside. listen, polling of a jury can try to find out so many things. if you've ever been on a jury, it sometimes doesn't have anything to do with what somebody thinks on them. i've been on a jury once where we reached a unanimous decision, except for one, who understood that the decision had to go the way that it did, not guilty, but was just like, i think he did it. but do you think the prosecutor made the case? no. but i think he did it.

a holdout could be for any reason. this is a big case for prosecutors, as you pointed out. they have to shoot and not miss. so, the more information that they can get to prepare, the better. the more the defense can get in order to prepare their case, the better to. it's not necessarily nefarious. >> the prosecution to do this jury pulling to find out information. i only thought of it asymmetrically, as a defense move, jill. >> absolutely, the prosecution can. i think that he's already, trump is already trying to taint the jury pool. he has at least in mar-a-lago said, oh, i will testify that i absolutely did not order any of the surveillance tapes to be destroyed. that is clearly an attempt to get to potential jurors. so, i think, if you go back to the case of having him a gag order, a little teeny bit of a gag order, which i don't think is enough right now, i think there has to be a lot more detail put into it to prevent

him from doing that kind of thing. >> yeah, a few more sticks. carrots have not worked. you are going to take a quick break, but the #sistersinlaw remain in the building. coming up, there is a multi state push to keep donald trump off the ballot in 2024 using the 14th amendment. is it legit? the sisters in law are going to weigh in on that. but first, we have this. >> we have to own even the darkest parts of our past. understand them, and vowing never to repeat them. >> was an extraordinary speech from justice, ketanji brown jackson, the 16th street baptist church in birmingham alabama, that's coming up next. iming up next keep your laundry smelling fresh waaaay longer than detergent alone. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks, make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters.

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on at the courts and in the world right now, would you choose this moment as your first visit to this great state? i guess, the honest answer is, i felt in my spirit that i had to come. >> in birmingham, alabama, today, supreme court justice, ketanji brown jackson, stood in the pulpit of the 16th street baptist church. the justice was there to commemorate the 16th anniversary of the day the ku klux klan bombed the building, and killed four young black girls who were getting ready for church, in the ladies

restroom. in her remarks today, justice jackson honored those four children, and she spoke in personal terms about her own background, and the reaction to her appointment to the highest court in the land. >> all of the attention to my race, and my gender, and the historical nature of my appointment has caused me to develop an intense yearning to better understand why. why has it taken 232 years, and 115 prior appointments for a black woman to serve on the supreme court? >> but when a supreme court justice speaks, her words are never just personal. in this case, they also revealed justice jackson's vision of what makes a more perfect union. >> if we are going to continue to move forward as a nation, we cannot allow concerns about

discomfort to displace knowledge, truth, or history. we cannot forget, because the uncomfortable lessons are often the ones that teach us the most about ourselves. >> those words, in alabama, conjured images of what's happening all around the country right now. especially in a neighboring state of florida, where the movement to to ban books and sensor lessons about history is front and center. justice jackson today, in paying tribute to the four girls who were denied the chance to grow up, made a specific choice to be unvarnished in her criticism and deeply personal in her rhetoric. she asked questions of herself, while pushing the country to do better. in a few weeks, justice jackson will take her seat on the bench as the supreme court begins a new term. she will undoubtedly articulate her vision for the best version of america, through the rule of law. we will have more on that when we come back, with the sisters in law. stay with us. us

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an all-in-one cleaning tool with a 360-degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just can't. mop smarter with the new swiffer powermop. >> in addition to all of donald trump's legal troubles and criminal in civil court, there's a whole other series of efforts underway to keep him off the ballot. in several states, using the 14th amendment to the constitution. specifically, using section three of that amendment, which states that any elected official, who engaged in insurrection or rebellion against united states or has given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof, should not be

able to hold federal or state office again. lawsuits filed in colorado last week, and minnesota this week, aim to force elections officials in those states to keep trump's name off their ballots in 2024. similar suits are forthcoming in other states across the country. still with me at the table are the co-hosts of the #sistersinlaw podcast, barb mcquade, joyce vance, but kimberly atkins stohr, and jill wine-banks. barb, let me just ask you about the sort of standing issue that i should start with, maybe in terms of minnesota's eight minnesota voters suing the minnesota secretary of state. the lawsuit is filed by, i think it's called free speech for people, if that's correct. do you think that this case can be successful in a way -- just in terms of going through the judicial process in a way that, for example, the lawsuit in florida was not, that failed entirely? >> yeah, it's really difficult to know. this provision is obviously

been in the constitution since the 14th amendment was passed, post civil war era. aiming at the rebels of the south. but, it's never really been tested. so, the standing question is one that is open. to citizens who say that they've been adversely affected, or would be adversely affected if donald trump appears on the ballot, it's an unknown question. the biggest question, i think, is whether this is self executing. is there some other provision congress has to pass before this can happen? look what's the mechanism, can you just file a lawsuit? who gets to make a finding that they engaged in insurrection or they provided comfort? i think the courts are going to have to sort this out. real question is whether there is time to sort it out before we get to the 2024 election. >> right, just to talk about that idea, michael luttig and larry tribe pop co-wrote an op-ed in the atlantic where they basically said the whole thing is self executing. donald trump doesn't need to be convicted of aiding and abetting those who would try to seek to overturn --

those who are guilty of insurrection. i'll read an excerpt. the disqualification clause, in section three, operates independently of any such criminal proceedings and indeed also independently of impeachment proceedings, and of congressional legislation. section three requires no legislation, criminal conviction, or other judicial action in order to effectuate its command. that is, section three is self executing. the sound so definitive, kimberly. >> i happen to know both professor tribe and judge luttig, i actually think they are right. but i come to a different conclusion on this, in part because of what barb said. that may be true. that is my reading of the constitution to. but that is not how secretaries of state act. they don't read the constitution and decide this is what they're going to do. they need a court decision, they need a statute, they need a law to follow in order to do that and we don't have that. even if the most learned scholars that we know believed that that exists. i also have a different concern.

i have a few. one is that this does get to the supreme court in time, and the supreme court issues a decision that we don't want. i don't necessarily -- act law, i don't necessarily want this litigated. i also fear, given how divided our nation's, if the supreme court essentially decides the next election, i don't know what that would do to the nation. i would prefer for the voters to go to the polls and decide definitively, the next election, rather than have people, many of whom don't trust the supreme court as an institution, we talk about that all the time, making his final decision and having the electorate feel like that decision was taken away from them. i think that can do a lot of damage. >> yeah, the political implications of it are fairly extreme. but before we get -- i mean, you know, before that would even happen, jill, it's the question -- the secretaries of states that they are targeting in many cases are democrats. they think they are going to get a more favorable outcome there. it is, as kimberly points out, asking a lot of an elected

official to take a former president and would be president again off the ballot in that state. and yet, come january 6th, everybody saw it play out. it is pretty clearly worded in section three. >> i agree with you. the thing i worry about, though, is the next time, it will be the republicans going to republican secretaries of state. the case in colorado is stronger, because they have a special statute there that says the citizens can do this. so they have standing, they have a right to do it. and as you say, this is a unique set of circumstances. this is something that every single american saw. now, 30 million of them misinterpreted it as nothing bad happened. so, i don't know what would happen politically if this goes forward, even though most of america would say, definitely, he engaged in a crime.

he engaged an insurrection. he gave aid and comfort, just by not telling them to go home, he gave aid and comfort to them. i think he's guilty. i think politically, it could lead to really bad stuff. >> yeah, joyce, where do you stand on this? i think that there's a -- you hear about these lawsuits happening across the country. it's such a break glass emergency mechanism, that i think a lot of people have dismissed it as never going to happen. this is only going to be used in an extreme case. although, it's pretty extreme the fact of the matter is people are filing these. lawsuits across the country. there are more to come. there's new hampshire, i believe ohio is on the list. there are a number of states where there is an authentic movement to try and use this, that is going to make its way into courts. >> look, i think that's right. textualists, who have traditionally been the conservatives on the supreme court, who believe that you should read the language in the statute, and follow it where it is explicit.

they have a very good point that the 14th amendment is self executed. but we've got competing values here. we've got, on the one hand, the constitutional principles. and opposed to that, we have this notion that the people should elect their leaders. and that that decision should not be taken away from them. ultimately, i think that ends up in this situation, millet taking in favor of letting the people decide. it is fraught. we are in a dangerous moment in this country. it's up to the americans to go and vote. >> kimberly, i will just say, having you guys all he'll, contextualizing the moment that we are in, every day we talk about law. i did not go to law school. the whole country is getting its law degree, because this person, donald trump, is stressed testing many institutions. but our judicial system, in particular. it is just such an extraordinary time to see the president of the united states maybe have to have a gag order, because he keeps threatening witnesses and prosecutors, entire cities. we are talking about using

constitutional amendments to disqualify him from running for president, again. i just wonder if all of it is tara incognito. how do you, as a legal mind, process and immediate future that no one can even begin to determine -- where no one knows what's going to happen? >> i think even the four of, us who studied the law, and spent our careers focused on, it didn't really realize how fragile the guardrails were in democracy. and how much of it is garnered by norms. and that actually by executed things. donald trump has, as you said, stressed tested every single one of those guardrails. to the point where we are sitting here talking about things that are usually reserved for law school classrooms. what does this provision of the constitution made? that is not usually where the rubber meets the road. this is how far we are stretched out. so we are figuring this out as we go. we are bringing the public with us to try to educate everyone. i think people should be watching closely, not just for

the civics lesson, but that this affects all of us. this is our democracy. >> this is our future. there's no better resource for all of it and the #sistersinlaw paul cast. farber mcquade, joyce vance, kimberly atkins store, and jill wine-banks. it is indispensable, the #sistersinlaw podcast, especially in this era of trump madness. thank you for all coming to new york city, it's a treat to have. you and honor to have. you thank you for your time. when we come back, united auto workers on strike, donald trump sees a political opportunity. what democrats and biden might do about it, coming up next.

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which they have, should be shared by a record contracts for the u and w. that was president biden earlier today supporting the demands of the united auto workers union, which is now on strike, pushing for higher wages, in three of america's biggest car company. for decades, biden has touted himself as one of the most

pro-union politicians in washington. that stands in fairly direct contrast to all of his republican poll opponents in 2020. for somehow, his most likely opponent, former president trump, who just this week refused to pick a side in these negotiations, and told my colleague, kristen welker, he thinks the uaw workers are being sold down the river by their union leadership, somehow, donald trump manages to get support from union workers without actually supporting them himself. in 2016, trump got more support from union households than any republican candidate since ronald reagan. in 2020, the uaw estimates that a third of its members voted for trump. what exactly is happening here? joining me now is tim miller, former communications director for the 2016 jeb bush campaign, and writer-at-large at the -- time, thank you for being here. how important is the way each man weighs in on this uaw strike? how important is that? how critical is that to the 2024 election? >> it's a lot more critical

than some of the other stuff we talked about. in the daily news cycle, because this is a crucial swing demographic. the working class white folks that defame donald trump voters, they're going to be some big swing democratic in 2020. for not the only, one but key. won both men are cross pressured. joe biden, i, think has the feeling that is not him, but maybe the democratic party is culturally not in line with where a lot of workers are. fair or not, there's that sense that's out. they're economically, joe biden, as you heard in that clip, it's much more aligned with them. in trump, it's the inverse. culturally, trump has spoken to that community, stereotypically, not every person, but stereotypically. but economically, there's no substance to it. trump screwed over workers in the private sector. he's on the side of corporations and big businesses on economic policy, i saw a bunch of treats from bright winners today mocking the workers for their demands. they both have the inverse issue and need to figure out how to address the area where

they are falling short with those voters if they want to win him over. >> i would argue their ability to speak to exactly these kind of americans, blue-collar, non-college-educated, white men is why they may end up being the nominees. biden's still with this group of the american electorate and trump's, it's this thing that has been inch large part determinative of the party's nomination process. i wonder what you think of biden and how he sort of tries to keep these people on his side with the cross pressures of his climate agenda where electric vehicles are a huge part of that. >> yeah, this is a huge question. i think for biden, that's right. it was this group in addition to older black voters, in particular, that i think would carry him across. i think it undermines his pitch that he could democrat losses with this pitch. there are gonna be some issues where there are differences on green, on climate in particular. and so where joe biden,

scranton joe element, the fact he's been on the side of unions, maybe he can mitigate some of the losses, with a group that is, let's be honest, been moving the republican direction for quite a few cycles. >> i do wonder, the thing is singular, no one else in the republican party has the residents he does with those folks. do we have nikki haley on the tractor? it is laughable to think that anyone that votes for trump in this group is somehow going to go for nikki haley or even run desantis. can you talk a little bit about it >> run desantis looks like the corporate boss. he smells and looks like the corporate boss. there's nothing he can say. you can sense that he's on the other side of this line. trump is definitely unique enough in that degree. >> to some degree it's why they can't seem to quit donald trump. because there is an understanding that no one else has the, for lack of a better term, magic sauce, with this key part of the electorate that he does. thus, they are saddled with him.

for the time being. tim miller, my friend, thank you for closing out this friday night with me. i appreciate your time and wisdom. as always. >> thanks alex. >> that is our show for this evening, now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell on a friday night, america, good evening, lawrence. >> alex, don't act so surprised. > it's enthusiasm. it is not surprised. it's just excitement for lawrence o'donnell on a friday night at ten. >> it is a five-day work week around here, for once. >> yet. is for once. for you. >> thank, you alex. >> have a good show. >> thank you. thank you. in a motion filed under seal, weeks ago, and released publicly today by the judge in the case of the united states of america versus donald j trump, special prosecutor, jack smith, asked the judge to issue two separate orders. one of which was, to shut up. donald trump's lawyers