today. i'm alicia menendez, i want to thank you for making us a part of your weekend. be sure to follow the show on twitter, instagram, and on tiktok. that is at alicia on msnbc. we'll see you here tomorrow, six pm eastern, four more american voices. for now, i handed over to my colleague. hello, amen. >> alicia, it's great to see you as always. i have to ask you before i let you go, what is the over under on kevin mccarthy retaining his speakership after this week with all the way things are going on that front? >> i think we've been asking ourselves this question -- >> since the day he became speaker. >> the only person who's asked that question more than your eye is kevin mccarthy. >> exactly, i think he wakes up every day wondering, is today going to be the day? great show, as always, my friend. great to see you, enjoy the rest your evening off. good evening to you. welcome to ayman tonight. here's some new breaking developments. special counsel, jack smith, formally requesting a gag order

to limit what donald trump can say about his federal election interference trial. and then, kevin mccarthy, his shrinking speakership. the republican leader caving to the radical right with his impeachment push. the intensifying effort to block donald trump from state ballots in 2024. my conversation, one-on-one, with the harvard constitutional law professor. that is coming up soon. let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ so, developing late last night, special counsel jack smith asked judge tanya -- to issue a gag order against donald trump, prohibiting him from attacking prosecutors. including the judge herself, or potential witnesses who may testify in the federal criminal trial, seven from his effort to subvert the 2020 election. prosecutors said, quote, the defendants past conduct, including contact that is taken

place after, and as a direct result of the indictment in the case, amply demonstrates the need for this order. adding that trump's pass all those had already resulted in harassment of potential witnesses. of course, to no one surprise, yep, donald trump responded by doing what he always does, lashing out. this time on social media. claiming that president biden had weaponize the doj and the fbi. of course, there is no evidence to support that whatsoever. and its requests, the special counsel's office contends that trump's posts amount to more than a mere breach of to quorum, because his public victory all has a history of unleashing harassment by his followers. of course the prosecutor specifically cited donald trump's and from his attacks on his former -- then there was the georgia election worker, ruby freeman, the former lieutenant governor, jeff duncan. all of those, just a few examples of the figures who face direct threats as a result

of being singled out by donald trump on social media. that same day, a federal appeals court also unsealed records showing that the same prosecutors had fought in court to block twitter from telling donald trump about a pending search order, worrying that informing him could precipitate violence, or enable him to attack and intimidate witnesses. so when you kind of take a step back, take it all together, the governments finally presented these extraordinary pictures of a former president as a uniquely dangerous threat, not just to the courts, but the justice system. those who would align against him in this criminal case. let's bring in my saturday night panel, and msnbc political analyst and executive price presidents at -- and a monte international, an international pollster. former congresswoman, donna edwards, she's also an msnbc political analyst and columnist for the washington post.

finally, -- a federal prosecutor. he is a legal affairs columnist at politico. an all-star panel. lots to talk about tonight. we're not all -- those scope with this potential gallagher. i specifically recall a couple weeks ago when this trial was just beginning, everyone was saying it's just a matter of time before donald trump goes up for the judge, goes after witnesses, goes up to special counsel. we are going to find ourselves in a situation where the judge is going to have to, at some point, make a decision about how to constrain his attacks on the actual process [bleep]. what do you make of the former president effectively saying this to do away with his right to free speech? >> he's putting the issue front and center. he's essentially trying to create a situation where he can mount a first amendment challenge to the gag order. something that might be grounds for him to try to have an immediate appeal and affect the

appeals. i think the judge lay forward for how she is going to deal with him in the future when he violates her orders. she says at a prior hearing, she said that if he can keep his mouth shut, and keeps for making statements that are going to undermine the process, that potentially change the jury poll, that would be grounds to move up the trial date. i think she's more likely to do that, because it's not on appeal, which is why discretion to do so. i can see her moving up the trial day, this is sending a message to donald trump, rather than getting ourselves in this challenging situation where she's trying to police a speech. this is always a tricky situation for a judge to make. >> congresswoman, what's your take on that, and how all of this is playing out right now? the fact is, perhaps on this particular panel, you are uniquely poised to be able to talk about the politics in the legality of it as we hear about the legality of, at trump is

exploiting this politically. he is turning around in framing this to his base, to voters. there are silencing. made their silence in my free speech because they know that this is the only way they came out at the ballot box. >> you know, judge chung and really laid out, early in august, what the parameters would be. i think, you know, no one could argue that from that time until now on his social media platform, and in his public appearances, that he continues to attack the judicial system, attacked potential witnesses. he has talked about a tainted on fair jury pool and washington post, ct, where he thinks he can't get a fair trial. all of these things actually point to what would be rather extraordinary, but it's about, it's not about silencing donald trump. he can say lots of things out on the campaign trail.

he can actually talk about what he wants to do in his second term. he can't attack the judicial system in the process, and all of the people involved in that as a way to get his way, and try to influence that pool. i think that judge chutkan is going to come up with a scope of what donald trump can and can't do, and then he'll be in the position of other violating another order and been forced to come back in front of her. i don't think it looks pretty for donald trump because they can hardly keep his mouth shut. >> we'll, quick if the council grants this gag order, what happens, next it moves up the court? the beginning of the trial? >> i think that's what she is likely to do, if she does grant smith's request, at least in part. what i think should be doing is essentially, you know, what having an additional order that tries to limit his social media

posts. i mentioned that there would be motions granted after that. in which trump's arguing that he's been silent, he's a presidential candidate, and so on. she's just been so savvy up till now. she's a very experienced litigator. i think she'll use the immense power that she has over this trial, the schedule, to try to make seven downside for donald trump, make it so he has an incentive to, you know, a bexar orders. right now, he doesn't have any incentive. he basically sees it in his advantage to dump his nose at the judge, and try to rile up his base, is campaign donations, and so on. >> if you look at the ceiling of the documents, there's a significant development there. that was, and we learned that, as you know, this, week that twitter had turned over 32 direct messages from the former presidents account to the special counsel.

then, we actually got our hands at a court filing that finds that federal prosecutors had secretly argued in april that of donald trump learned of their efforts to access his direct messages on twitter, his public disclosure of that development could precipitates violence. it seems like a pretty significant development just because it shows to the extent that jack smith is worried about what donald trump can do on social media, but also, what may have been set in those direct messages. >> it is as significant developments. i think there is a dimension to the special counsel's request for the gag order that we haven't really gotten into in this discussion yet. it is not just the specter of what trump is trying to do to shape public opinion, to rally his base, and to potentially influence the jury pool, but it's a specter not just a violence, but of potential harm and death to one of the participants in the trial.

remember, the maga base, as we've seen from the actions of january six, and other incidents before and after, has proven to be a response to the calls of the leader of the personality cult. and this case, donald trump. i don't think that special counsel smith's plane, or playing games, or trying to do this as a tactical maneuver. i think there's an element of real danger, or given what we've seen has been a weaponized base that trump is used. on occasion, and in the past, the fact that he's been charged with some of these federal crimes, i don't think that we can discount the fact that violence is on the table. i think that is really what judge chunkier needs to take into consideration. not just the threat of moving up the trial, which of course would not be to trump's legal advantage, but to the protection of herself and all of the participants, the jurors, the special counsel's themselves. we've seen donald trump stoke and engage people to act, and

his wishes an interest in violence, and i don't see what would stop him from doing it again. >> we're not, joe just moving up the trial jeopardize the fairness of the trial that donald trump could exploit if he's convicted to not given due process because i was not given a fair amount of time to prepare for this? on appeal, which i suspect, if he is convicted, he would certainly do an appeal. would he be able to argue, look, she moved up the trial, claiming that it was because of my violation of these gag orders. i get a right to appeal. >> yeah, there's no question that he is going to -- but the constitutional floor, in terms of how much time you need to prepare for trial is very, very low. it would really take a significant shift for the court of appeals, the united states supreme court to say, actually, defendants are entitled to ample amount of time. months of time to prepare for trial. as a practical matter, and i'll

say this is somebody who's is a prosecutor, i've defended a lot of substantial cases, yes, it does take a lot of time to prepare. as a practical matter, in terms of where the law is, courts of appeals gave judges like judged -- very, very broad authority to manage the calendar. the first amendment, however, the courts take seriously. they have strong discretion in the first amendment. i can just see her taking a position where she doesn't want to touch that as much, she's so experienced, i could see her using her levers of power. there are a number of different levels, to try to give some downside to donald trump. i agree, she should be concerned about her safety. i know what it's like, i've been in that circumstance, where i've had serious threats. it is very significant as a situation. >> congresswoman, the question of the gag order comes after trump's lawyers demanded that trump kim bocuse d'or cell from the federal election case because she has prejudice, or she has prejudged, we should,

say his guilt, or he has prejudice towards him. what is your take on that? >> just as we've learned in terms of the judge, the trial judges ability and latitude to manager calendar, she also has the power to make a decision about whether she should refuse or not. i fully expect, i mean, she's not going to recuse herself from this trial. there's no reason for her to do that. again, i think that the trump lawyers are just trying to muddy the waters, and cause multiple delays. i think that judge chutkan is savvy enough to know what's going on here, that she's going to manage that process really well. >> i was going to say, it switch from trump and his team to us that judge shrunken recuse herself while at the same time not saying anything about the judge he appointed in the mar-a-lago case, aileen cannon, from doing any measures, or taking any measures. the perception that he thinks she's going to be favorable,

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announced their long-awaited impeachment inquiry into president biden. not so fearless leader, our speaker mccarthy, now has task three committees. the oversight, judiciary, and ways and means with carrying out the probe into the president and his family's business dealings over gop allegations of abuse of power, obstruction, and corruption. these are allegations that house republicans have been chasing, as i mentioned, for months. so far, to no avail. so, i'm sure you're asking, what brings this goose chase to the level of a full blown impeachment trial now? it seems that mccarthy is appeasing his far-right members who have repeatedly threatened to oust him. this was speaker nancy pelosi's response when she asked if mccarthy's concessions have impacted the work of the office that she and others once held. >> i call it the incredibly shrinking speakership.

at some point, you had to say, why do i want to be speaker? >> but mccarthy's appeasement operation already looks like a total failure. in fact, here is one of his top critics, florida congressman, matt gaetz, openly mocking the speaker, on this very network. >> yeah, i couldn't tell if you cutaway to kevin mccarthy or commercial for t. yesterday's impeachment is somehow today's thought impeachment. good gracious, if we have to make the case against joe biden, let's hope we have affected people like jim jordan and kobe are making the case, and maybe turn off kevin mccarthy's microphone for a while. i could peel back the curtain here. kevin mccarthy is going to advance in impeachment on joe biden, a lot like he was going to advance an impeachment on ali mayorkas. months kevin got power, all of that went by the wayside. i think you're witnessing the same gaslighting, and the same allusion, in the same mirage right here. he doesn't really need it. >> and then there is the shadow

that has been looking over his speakership in the form of donald trump. this, week both the new york times and political reporter don trump porcupine the scenes turned gop lawmakers to, in fact, impeach president biden. it is clear who is actually pulling the strings here. there's no doubt about it. unfortunately for kevin mccarthy, there is nothing more motivating than revenge. for trump, you know, this impeachment mission against joe biden isn't just about playing politics or distracting from his own multiple indictments. it is, personal. it is democrats first impeached him back in 2020, one he has been desperate to repay the favor. if you don't believe me, all you have to do is just listen to him. he admitted as much in a recent interview with making kelly, saying, in part, quote, i think that if they had not done it to me, perhaps you wouldn't have been done to them. that's bring back my panel. congresswoman, i'll start with you. i want you to listen to what

congressman adam schiff said, who led the impeachment against donald, trump had to say about kevin mccarthy. watch. >> mccarthy realizes that he doesn't have the votes to do a real impeachment investigation. he doesn't have the support of his own members to do it. at the same time, his motivation is, what do i need to do to stay speaker one more day? or one more week? he's got donald trump pushing him to do an impeachment inquiry, he's got the marjorie taylor greene's pushing him to do an impeachment investigation. he knows he doesn't have the votes for, and he knows he's going to contradict himself in just two weeks ago, but none of that really matters. this is the problem he has with his own conference, and that is that he stands for nothing. his only reason for being is to try to cling to that job. >> so you served in the house, you know a lot more about that body than i do. have you ever seen a speaker as week as kevin mccarthy? >> well, we often described,

and it is true, the nancy pelosi was one of the most powerful it's effective speakers that we've had in generations. as much as that is true, and mccarthy is one of the weakest. he demonstrates that every day. one of the things that made pelosi effective is the fact that she understood her caucus, she managed at, and she created a set, a discipline in the caucus. kevin mccarthy has done none of that. part of it is how he got started. those first 15 votes to make him speaker meant that he had to give concession after concession. you heard matt gaetz say that's in any case. i don't think it stops here. he promised a vote on impeachments two weeks ago. he did a full circle on that. now you have this inquiry. it's going to come to a vote. it's going to put all of those members who want him biden

district, there are about 18 of them, it's going to put them all in jeopardy because kevin mccarthy is so weak. that leads right into his weakness going into a possible government shutdown in the next two weeks. he is absolutely no control over that public inquiry. >> what's your reaction to the calls the trump's been making behind the scenes to push this impeachment probe along? it's not surprising on one, hand but on the other hand, it is revealing. what it says about the republican party, that they are happily carrying out his revenge mission for him. >> to me, it's the democrats who are happy to see the republican party carrying it out. i don't think the democrats can't believe the luck that has fallen into their hands. it's kind of like on the abortion issue, which to the republicans use for decades, but when they push the policy

through, it saw of facts from that. at the same, time with this impeachment inquiry with, the republican -- president biden star works in the white house along with -- their cutting billy dollar deals with guilt saudi arabia. oh, wait no, that was garrett trump, jared. so the point here is that the american public a poll after poll say, are you crazy, about the idea of a biden impeachment. there are no charges, it's completely a legitimate, and i think from the democrat perspective, they are loving this, so they're not going to say, up they're not going to admit, because this is only going to drive up president biden's numbers that a time when they're a little soft. i think the longer this impeachment inquiry goes forward, the more they're going to be behind the scenes propping it up. kevin mccarthy is going to be speaker for the remainder of his term because he's going to have democratic votes in the house to keep him there. as an act of and out for trump,

pardon the pun, the caucus, if republicans try to move mccarthy, it's going to make their life worse. >> that will be quite an interesting political move by the democrats. i have to say, you could almost, and i use the word almost here, very loosely, you could almost believe the republicans if they would have opened an investigation into jared kushner and ivanka trump for everything that they did while they're in the white house. you could almost say that they were genuine about looking into all this, but that is not the case. ronaldo, if you go back in january 2020, the trump logistics department formally declare that impeachment inquiries by the house are invalid unless the chamber takes formal votes to authorize them. that move, actually, came after that house speaker, nancy pelosi, launched an impeachment inquiry into trump without initially holding any votes for it. let's say that the biden doj plays this trump card, and

chooses not to cooperate. what do you think happens in a court? >> i do think that the house would go to court to court. ultimately, they would likely be put in a position where, i, think they would want to take a vote in order to strengthen their legal position. obviously, we just heard a moment ago they may not have those votes. so ultimately, this may, you know, this may be something where the republicans ultimately don't push the white house in court to try to get all the documents that they might want, to roll the testimony they might want, because this is really about putting a cloud over president biden. this is really about using and abusing this process in a way that hasn't been done before. even controversial impeachments, like the impeachment of former president clinton, that was after a laid the investigation where there were specific allegations of wrongdoing. here, there's no allegations of wrongdoing that are specific, there's just and you endo.

there is vague statements about corruption. really, this is, to me, about growing up with the dust cloud, rather than any inquiry into specific allegations and facts. >> it's no secret that donald trump is staring down multiple indictments. you have this attempt by the gop to blur the lines, to ronald's point, where they basically just want to have something to be able to say to the voters, look, joe biden is under an impeachment inquiry, forget about donald trump's legal woes. the current president is the one that's corrupt. that's how they're trying to position it for the voters. how did democrats make sure that americans do not fall for that, and do not fall for that baseless comparison of trying to pick these two men against each other because they are both now impeached. hey, if they've both been impeached, just ignore it. >> i think democrats do, and continue to do what they've done, which is govern. fix the problems of the country,

and that is why, david, when you see in the public opinion polls, my job as a pollster, there is no basis. there is no majority support in any group, with the exception of republicans for this impeachment inquiry. i don't think democrats really need to do anything, because the american people can see it for what it, as ronaldo set. they are weaponizing the most sacred, and what should be untouchable tool and the arsenal of federal government, to deal with an out-of-control elected official. the american people know that that does not apply to president biden. where is the american people who did now, it did apply to president trump. that's why you've seen public opinion poll support the impeachment of president trump. his actions around january 6th, and what he did with ukraine, holding money and that disputed phone call with salon ski in order to get what he was looking for. i think as long as that happens, democrats are going to be -- there is no danger for that with this impeachment inquiry. >> donna edwards, --

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hunter did not earn money from his businesses and china while he was serving as vice president. nearly three years later, we actually learn from hunter biden's court testimony that he had been paid in china, but it is unclear whether joe biden was actually aware that that was the case. because, as the president said during his 2020 campaign, he and his son never discussed his overseas business dealings. republicans have produced any evidence to the contrary. in fact, here's kevin mccarthy's next flimsy claim. >> i witnesses have testified that the presidents joined on multiple phone calls. he had multiple interactions, dinners, resulted in cars and millions of dollars into his son's business partners. >> okay, this summer, hunter biden's former business associate, devin, archer told the house oversight committee that biden put his father on speakerphone during business

meetings about 20 times. never to talk business. quote, as he described, it was all casual conversation, niceties, the weather, what's going on. there wasn't a single conversation about any of the business dealings that hunter had. congressman dan goldman told reporters that after a closed-door meeting. again, there's no public evidence that the president ever participated in business dealings with his son. no one else has cooperated that. then there's the claim that payments totaling $20 million were directed to biden's family members and their associates through shell companies. there is some truth to this claim, as a pertains to biden's family and associates of biden's. again, there's no evidence. once again, the joe biden received any money for that. republicans also point to his associates creating llcs to accuse them of creating shell companies. again, there's nothing inherently nefarious about simply creating llcs. and, fact it is commonplace to

create them when starting a new business. take a listen to kevin mccarthy again. >> the treasury department alone has more than 150 transactions involving the biden family and other business associates that were flagged as suspicious activity by u.s. banks. >> hunter and james biden, the president's younger brother, have reportedly wrapped up at least 150 suspicious activity reports for their business transactions, but emphasis here is on reports. the sole existence of these reports is not hard of advance of wrongdoing, nor does it necessarily trigger an investigation. senate investigators in the justice department have reviewed these reports, and again, no criminal charges have ever resulted. republicans have also found that as vice president, jill biden allegedly participated in a bribery stance scene with a -- this is our ukrainian energy

company which hunter served on the board, may two 5 million dollar payments that the bidens. again, this claim was debunked by testimony from hunter's former business associate, devin archer. he said that he was not aware of these payments. what's more, a executive said in 2019 that no one at the company had ever been in contact with joe biden. finally, there is a claim that you've probably heard about the most. that hunter biden has somehow receive special treatment from the justice department. well this week, hunter was charged with two charges related to purchasing a gun, and a third count of possessing a firearm while using a narcotic. these charges stemming from an investigation that hunter biden lied about his drug use all of those gone up locations. as our friend explained it a column for politico entitled hunter biden got exceptional treatment, especially harsh, quote, until this week i had

never heard of a prosecution of anyone for possessing a firearm while addicted to a controlled substance. mary adi says that according to the data, federal prosecutors charged 12,000 cases involving a firearm last year alone. the overwhelming majority of those cases involve the possession of a firearm by a felon. these cases are usually a way to get felons with violent histories, or gang involvement, off the streets. this sounds nothing like joe biden's son. so if you take away anything from, thus let it be this. yes, hunter biden may have used his father's name and cachet to pursue business deals overseas. this may be distasteful, but so far, it is far from a legal. if you aren't a fan of hunter biden, i have some really good news for you, he's not running for president in 2024. he does not serve in the government, nor does he serve at the white house. yet republicans are trying to

pin his actions on president biden in a transparent attempt to distract from the very real criminal charges that the republican front runner, donald, trump is facing. including obstruction of a official proceeding, and ultimately, plotting to overthrow this government. rest assured, we, on this show, or not getting distracted. the efforts to get trump removed under the state ballots is expanding. constitutional law professor will response those efforts next. e effort next that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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here's to another 150 years of adventure. there's a story in every piece of land. run with us on a john deere gator xuv and start telling yours. a judge has denied donald trump's request to move to federal court in colorado that is a bit removing him from the 2024 state ballot. the lawsuit was brought by colorado voters that cited that trump violated 14th amendment that -- that engage in an active insurrection from seeking office. due to the ex presidents role

on january the six. this week, a group of minnesota voters filed a similar lawsuit to remove trump from that state's 2024 ballot. that lawsuit was brought with the help of a liberal election and campaign finance organization called free speech for people. the group's legal director tells nbc news that it plans to fall more legal challenges and other states, and work to persuade secretaries of state to use their authority to exclude trump from state ballots. many secretaries of state are not on board with that, including michigan secretary of state, jocelyn benson, who writes in the washington post, quote, whether trump is eligible to run for president again is a decision dot for secretaries of states but for the courts. joining me now is laurence tribe, professor at harvard law school, and coauthor of the book, to end the presidency, the power of impeachment. you and i, professor, we've spoken about this a couple weeks ago. the conversation got a lot of people's attention. we want you to tell us after, especially because you wrote

that piece, the former can institutional judge. you made the argument that the constitution bars trump from running for president. we long ago came to the conclusion that the 14th amendment can taste within it a protection against the dissolution of the republic by a treasonous president. given that perspective, how do you view these particular efforts in colorado, minnesota to disqualify trump? >> thanks for having me back. i think these lawsuits are very carefully and thoughtfully designed. they amass a great deal of evidence that what happens, not just on january six, but in the lead up to it, with fake electoral slates, and all the rest. this was an insurrection, as the constitution uses that term. that donald trump was a the

center of that insurrection against the constitution of the united states. he gave an aid or comfort. that does not mean that he gets punished. that would depend on whether he is prosecuted for insurrection, and indicted, or whether the pending indictments stick. this is not a punishments. when you said that he violated section three, that is not quite the way that some people would put it. some people would say, section three, like the requirement that you not run a third time after you've been president twice, or like the requirement that you be old enough, and natural born citizen, it's just an eligibility requirement. when secretary of state of michigan said she thinks the courts have decided, that is really the theory of these lawsuits. they proceed by suing the secretary of state, because

under the laws of colorado in minnesota, that secretary it's their responsibility not to let someone on the ballot, if they're ineligible, to hold the office. we know, quite clearly, that the human tendency to pass the buck. this is what all the secretaries of states are likely to do. it's going to end up in the courts. this is where i think it belongs. the courts will hold a hearing, and then they will decide whether, under the constitution, and under the facts, say demonstrated that the syrians, the former president is disqualified. simple as that. it would go up to the u.s. supreme court, and ultimately those nine justices. my wish we can trust them a little more than we can, but that's what we've got. those nine justices will render a decision, and it's likely to happen fast because they don't want chaos, they want this to be settled before the primary season. >> let me ask you a kind of

procedural question first, and then i want to get to something a little more legal. you have, it looks like, that we see a dozen states that are going to pursue this legal strategy, if you want to call that. saying that he does not meet the requirement because he was involved in an insurrection. how does that play out when you have 12 states? you're not going to have all 12 cases proceed to the supreme court because at their essence, they're all about the same requirements. what happens in this situation, would you have these 12 different states considering this legal question? >> while, it's just like a horse race the 12 horses. one of them gets their first. whoever gets there first with the supreme court's discretion to say, no, we don't think that's a good, case we'll wait for the next one. there will be a case. the supreme court agrees to hear first. when it does, that's the case that everyone is going to be

talking about. it's really fairly straightforward. the cases differ. in minnesota, for example, procedural -- on the petitioners, the citizens, to go straight to the top, to the highest court in minnesota. this is going to render a decision without the usual kind of trial. that might get to the u.s. supreme court very quickly. and colorado, it's going to go up the chain, trial, in the state court, in the intermediate court, or maybe straight to the colorado supreme court. when the colorado supreme court, of the minnesota's corridor, any other court, when they disqualify trump, if any of them do, trump is bound to challenge that in the u.s. supreme court. if none of the states highest courts disqualify him, that's going to be much more of a difficult problem because ordinary citizens who are bringing these cases don't have standing in the federal courts.

that might be a difficulty. we're going to have to see how it all pans out. >> let me ask you the second part of what i wanted to ask, you which is, correct me if i'm wrong, there are two parts to this decision. one is, was january 6th an active insurrection? and two, was donald trump involved in it? is this what the courts are going to have to decide, and this is what the secretary of state don't want to decide? they don't want to decide a january six meets the legal definition of insurrection, because i think for the american public, and certainly for a lot of the secretaries of state, donald trump was involved with whatever happened on january the 6th. he told people to come to the -- that part is irrefutable. the question is, what happened on january 6th, is it actually legally get defined as an insurrection? >> well the real question is, does the whole course of conduct leading up to and including january 6th, including the fake electoral slates, constitute an

insurrection, or rebellion? that word is in there to, against the constitution of the united states. if this was not an insurrection or rebellion, it is very hard to imagine what could've been. you don't need army, like the confederate army kind of insurrection. everyone agrees with that. and this provision is not a dead letter, than anyone who tries to overturn the constitution, and is forced away, as donald trump appears to have done, is the very person against to make this provision was designed to protect the country, and the constitution. the courts are going to have to decide, all of those things. there are also more technical questions. even if it was an insurrection against the constitution, even if he let it, is this something where you have to have a conviction first? the history is clear, the purposes of section three or clear. some people try to argue that

you have to be convicted of an insurrection. there are even some people who argue that the president is not an officer of the united states. that is a wild one, since he has been described as an officer nine times in the article defining the executive power. that just shows how desperate people are not to apply the constitution as it was written. the very people who insist on being original us, and historically minded, want to turn their backs on tax on purpose, and on history, when it comes to this provision of the constitution. >> i've said it before and i say it again, these are uncharted waters that we are heading into as a country, but there is no one better to help us break it down legally speaking. professor laurence, it's always great to have you. thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> next, the cowardice of texas republicans. texa republicans. rs

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general will remain in office. i know that is a shocker, it certainly was for us when we saw the news today. today, he was acquitted on 16 articles of impeachment. the remaining four were promptly dismissed by the senate. paxton is the first texas official to ever be and peach and acquitted. this is following a two-week trial that was filled with a slew of witness testimony alleging that he repeatedly used his office by trying to

help his friend and donor, nate paul, only two senate republicans voted to convict paxton on any of the articles. paxton had been on unpaid suspensions since may, when lawmakers overwhelmingly voted to adopt the 20th trickles of impeachment. 100 and 21 to 33. it wasn't even close on the health side. paxton support in the senate's proved unrelenting. now, he likely won't face accountability from his colleagues in the state legislator. let's not forget, controversy has followed this man since the very beginning. yes, let us not forget that he is still under investigation in texas for securities fraud charges dating back to 2015. that was his first year in office. the impeachment trial really stems from more recent allegations, namely in 2021 his own aides, his own aides, accused him of misconduct. they were subsequently fired. he was facing 20 separate counts, including district guarding his official duty,

making false statements on official records, constitutional rivalry. well paxton and his republican allies are celebrating today's acquittal, the texas democratic caucus issued a statement reading, and part, the senate, quote, great ability to see through the fog of politics does not change the fact that they are now etched in the granted of the texas capital. senate republicans in the state may have been able to turn a blind eye to the mountain of evidence but beforehand, but the attorney general still faces a federal investigation that mirrors the allegations laid out and the impeachment charges, and that 2015 felony fraud case and mentioned a moment ago. paxton, he might be able to stay in office for now, who knows? but the other investigations, if they don't go his way, he could be worrying about something much bigger. that is prison time. s prison time. learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? -uhuh. the designer's eyeing sequins. uh no plaid.

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live from miami florida, we have lots of news to come, lots of questions to answer, so let's get started. bumpy roads ahead, -- to end a historic strike that could cripple the u.s. economy. the -- joins us and minutes to weigh in on the path to resolution. trump, muzzled. special counsel jack smith with the twice impeached, triple indicted, one term ex president can say about the election interference case. how will this interfere in the other cases against trump and