congressman -- and he's coming up first. plus, a remarkable new filing, jack smith asked a federal judge to impose a limited gag order on trump. our in-house -- is back, standing by with reaction. also today, congressman -- on what was the most factual thing trump said in an interview on meet the press. republicans have no idea how to talk about abortion rights. and later, mitt romney announces he won't run for reelection, and you better believe he's naming names on the way out. don >> -- ,, --

,, -- ,, -- that will be the dominant storyline of this campaign. in part because donald trump refuses to talk about almost anything else, he is relentlessly attacked prosecutors in the justice system on truth social and on the campaign trail, and all along jack smith has been listening, clearly. special counsel now seeking a gag order against trump in his election interference case, so if the judge issues that kate order, trump is going to have to really -- go to strategies, like getting his cronies to do's dirty work for him. he's tried that in the past. house republicans did get a bit of a head start this week, by launching their baseless impeachment inquiries into president biden. in an interview that just aired on meet the press, trump said he had nothing to do with it.

>> did you talk to speaker mccarthy about this house? >> no. no, no, i didn't do that. i don't think he'd do. that he wouldn't do it based on me, no. >> to talk to republican allies on capitol hill and say you should support this? >> no, are at the top. they were more proactive than i am. they think it's terrible. i will say, this they think i was too dearly unfairly. >> whatever trump says, we know this is largely happening because of him. and just take my word for it, ultra conservative congressman ken buck said, quote, directly or indirectly's impeachment inquiry was a result of president trump's pressure. of course it was. just what we already know. the former president has been speaking weekly with house gop conference chair woman, louise stefanik, who just happened to be the first member of republican leader, coincidence, i think. not the new york times reported that trump has been talking regularly by phone with members of the house freedom caucus,

another congressional republicans who pushed for impeachment. and just days before kevin mccarthy's announcement, trump had dinner with the speaker. i mean, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, otherwise known as. the manual included halibut, diet coke, and reportedly talk of impeaching a political rival. on the record, marjorie taylor greene even told the new york times that they released to trump, they wanted the impeachment inquiry to be, quote, long exclusively painful for joe biden. and i'm not even sure that is saying the quiet part out loud, because this has all been so incredibly loud. we know what is going on here. the truth is that this is an inquiry in search of a pretext, in search of a purpose. and it is not as if the orchestrator's are even hiding that. >> this is about transparency and answers for the american people, and ultimately, accountability for what i believe will uncover the political corruption scandal in our nation's history.

>> will uncover, that is a key phrase there. there is not a single solitary shot of evidence at this point to suggest anything with a misdemeanor. it's not i have not been looking, they've been hunting for the past nine months. house republicans have been investigating biden and his family, they've issued subpoenas, they've obtained thousands of bank records, and the revelations, and they've yet to find any actual wrongdoing. so, if there is any actual evidence, and it isn't about facts, what is it all about? >> well, james comer gave us a hint way back in may. >> you look at the polling, and, right now, donald trump is seven points ahead of joe biden, and trading, up were joe biden is trending downward. and i believe that the media is looking around, scratching their, head and realizing that the american people are keeping up with our investigation. >> polling just a blatant mission is that what they're

doing right there is about poll numbers, in just a few days ago, donald trump himself, said quote, they did it to me, i think had they not done it to, me perhaps you wouldn't have it been done to them. there you have. it this has been the game all around. the scores gonna determine before the kickoff. it doesn't matter about high crimes and misdemeanors, it's not about congressional oversight, this is about politics, and it's about payback. in the words of marjorie taylor, green it's about inflicting pain on president biden. this is about republican revenge for trump's own impeachments, this is about is this political opponent down a pay. once upon a time, i'm sure you remember this, he did try to pressure the ukrainian president into digging up dirt on biden. this time, he's just found some more willing participants. joining me now is democratic -- the ranking democrat on the house oversight committee. congressman, it's good to see this afternoon. >> great to be with, you jen. and before we get to

impeachment, and there's a lot to discuss there, i do want to ask you about the gag order that jack smith is seeking on trump and trump's response was to say it was that jack smith want to take away my rights under the first amendment. you're an expert on such things. explain to us what is wrong with that argument. >> well, what jack smith is asking for is, of, course standard in courtrooms across the country, where there are very slim limitations put on what different parties to a case can say in order not to prejudice the jury pool, or otherwise compromise the proceedings. so, it is not a first amendment question. >> now, moving on to impeachment, which, obviously, was big news on the hill this past week, trump denies involvement in this impeachment effort. we heard him say that i meet the press interview this morning. but, do you think this would really be happening if trump didn't want to happen given the reliance of so many leaders on him in the party?

>>, no more than i think that the january six insurrection would've happened in the absence of donald trump's insistence and direction. he obviously is at the center of the whole thing. his wounded pride will not allow him to run for president against joe biden as a twice impeached four times indicted former president looking at 91 criminal charges. if he couldn't say the other guy has been impeached as well, it is pretty much a simple. is that and the evidence, who cares whether there is no high crime or misdemeanor. it's just within the house majority power from trump's majority perspective to deliver. >> you're the ranking democrat on that committee, and a very busy job. you've talked about what they've requested for, and what they've got in the past. and republicans on the committee are really leaning into what they think they will uncover from bank records. they've already obtained thousands of them, and correct me if i'm wrong there, but is there anything they have not

had access to that they've requested? >> no. in fact, chairman comer has repeatedly boasted that he has gotten 100% of everything that he was looking for in terms of subpoenaed documents and witnesses, in order to prove to his party that he's been doing his job. he's been saying, i've gotten everything, i'm looking for and we've looked at 12,000 pages work of bank documents, 2000 sars reports, suspicious activity reports. and tons of witnesses who've come in, including the presidents book keeper and hunter biden's business partner, devin archer and so there's no shortage of evidence. there's overwhelming evidence, it's just evidence of absence of culpability on the part of joe biden for any crime you can imagine. they have not laid a glove on him. so, if they go forward with this ridiculous impeachment, we will make them demonstrate what are the factual building blocks of it.

and i think a lot of them, including marjorie taylor greene, and matt gaetz, would love to rush this thing to the floor so they can all make a bunch of phony speeches. but there is no evidence there so we're gonna say, all right. if this is really about high crimes and misdemeanors, show us the evidence. what is the factual evidence, what are you talking about. and if they had a single factual episode that demonstrated the high crimes and misdemeanors that they are alleging everybody would know about. it but there is just nothing there. they are completely empty handed. so, we will put them to the test. >> facts to back up and impeachment feels very reasonable, congressman. and president trump also told nbc's kristen walker that it is. quote, very unlikely hill pardon himself but that he could have when he was president. let's take a listen to that. >> mister president, if you are reelected, would you pardon yourself? >> i could've pardoned myself. do you know what?

i was given an option to pardon myself, i could pardon myself when i left people said, would you like to pardon yourself? i said had a couple attorneys that said, you can do it if you want, i said i would never give myself a pardon? >> even if you are reelected in this moment? >> i think it's very unlikely. what did i do wrong, i don't do anything wrong? >> there's been so much reporting, congressman, about why he's running, his team, have said why they think he's running. what do you make of this claim that he says that it is unlikely he would pardon himself? >> i'm sure john eastman and rudy giuliani have been advising, him that he can render a self pardon. he can surround himself with whatever kind of legal sycophants he wants to tell him that. but it cuts against the cardinal principle of the judicial system as james madison laid out in the federalist papers, where he said that the premise of our law is that no man, no person

can be a judge in his own cost, in his own case. and, of course, that is a recipe for authoritarianism and fascism, because, at that point, he could not only try to overthrow an election and the constitution as he's advised several times he can brag about it, and then pardon himself for his crimes. so i think that i would hope the entire judiciary and the american people would rebel against such an obnoxious concept. >> also the subject of pardons, i might listen to what trump told nbc about parting members of the proud boys. >> proud boys leader, enrique tarrio was sentenced to 22 years in jail. now that you know with the sentences, 22 years in jail. will you give him a pardon, will you give other proud boys a pardon? >> a ton of, him i never met, and i never heard of him until i started reading this. but i want to tell you he and other people have been treated

horribly. ? will you pardon him? >> i would look at, that looked all the other people have suffered. the j six people. >> men r.i.c.o. tarrio, which you know well is a leader of the insurrection, part of the problem to state it mildly. mr. trump certainly try to dodge their. he didn't say no, but what did you make of his answer and how concerning is that to you? >> i mean, it's predictable, but utterly outrageous and scandalous. you've got a former president of the united states who is running for president saying that he will consider there by telegraphing his real intent to all of his followers parting people who've been convicted of seditious conspiracy, which means, conspiracy to overthrow the government of the united states, and of course, trump set all of those events into motion with his determination to overthrow the 2020 presidential election, to avoid out joe biden's victory by more than 7 million votes in 306 to

2:32 and the electoral college, and now, he's further giving aid and comfort to the insurrectionists by promising them, or at least heavily intimating that he will give them a pardon for what they did. so we are up against exactly the same kind of authoritarianism that we witnessed on january 6th. and america needs to understand that we are just in the middle of the struggle. we are not over it, in a sense and i know that there is a way in which the republicans opposition to trump's impeachment, or conviction, except for a noble ten members in the house and senate, that their opposition was a tragedy. and there's a temptation to look at all of this as a farce. but it is a farce that could bring the republic to its knees and i would much rather see the dissolution of the republican party than the u.s. constitution and the american

republic. >> before that you, go congressman, i want to ask about kamala harris being on the ticket as the vice president ticket. you've been such a support of the biden harris agenda, presidency, in vice presidency. are you confident in the ticket and how do you feel about the vice president remaining on the ticket? >> great. i feel excellent about it, there should be no confusion about it. i think someone was trying to get me to pick a fight with my friend, nancy pelosi, which i'm not going to do. we are all behind the biden harris administration which has delivered a spectacular remarkable victories in a 1.2 trillion dollar infrastructure of america in inflation reduction act in dramatic reductions in health care costs for the american people, and the medicare program in real climate chinese advocacy, and defense against the nightmare of the climate change.

so we've been making tremendous progress under biden harris. and we are all for the ticket and, i know that, again, there seems to be an effort to say well, there's chaos on the republican side, there's gotta be chaos on the democratic side. there is not. and i think that biden and harris have done a remarkable job against all the political odds, as they face a rule or ruin faction within the republican party, which arrived at work this last week with just three goals. one to shut down the government of the united states, to to impeach the president of the united states, and three to overthrow the speaker of the united states. >> congressman -- >> it's like alfred penny worth said in batman. cemented like to burn everything down. >> no way to end it on batman. congressman jamie raskin, always a pleasure, thank you for mining us what is important. and coming up after jack smith

requests a gag order on donald trump, the former president basically dares the judge to impose one. andrew weissmann and we'll catch all join me, next. plus, republicans speak very articulately about abortion. trump's words, not mine, congressman joins me with reaction to that. and later, standing revelations and reflections on the republican party as mitt romney announces his retirement. we are just getting started today, and we'll be right back. today, and we'll be right back. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. (dad) we got our subaru forester wilderness now's the time to see to discover all of the places that make us feel something more.

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to but neil, i don't start with this gag order request. because i think all of us people are wondering what is the judge going to do and what are the consequences? so what factors is she looking at? >> the prosecutor, jack smith, is saying to the court, look. this defended, donald trump, is running his mouth and really dangerous ways. prejudicing the jury, pool prejudicing witnesses, and alike. and so jack smith as file this piece of paper saying, hey, stop him from doing this. and it goes back to 1976 supreme court case called the nebraska press association versus stewart. and basically the, question is, is jack smith's limited request here limited enough to gag donald trump, and i suspect the answer is yes that he will prevail on this in some limited way. and that's because jack smith wrote a very narrow strained document, one that just said, look, if he's gonna be attacking witnesses or attacking court personnel, that goes too far. and i think the next step is for the judge hearing where donald trump sits in that

courtroom looks at her in the eye and explains himself. and then, from there, some sort of tailored remedy, including possibly moving the trial date up. >> wow. so, i has until believe next friday, if i'm remembering correctly, to respond, or his team does. and what are the consequences? donald trump does not change his behavior easily, his jalen option here if he violates it? >> jail is an option, but i don't think that would be the first thing or even the second thing that the judge would do. i think as neil alluded to, judge chutkan has already said that if you continue to engage in this kind of behavior, not just a part of the jury but inflaming the public in ways that could lead to violence, that you could move the trial up. she also couldn't find the defendant, she could also impose restrictions that are overseen by his own council before he engages, for instance,

in truth social post, and there are a variety of options. i should make sure the people know. this is a standard thing in high profile matters. entering these orders. so we have them routinely in special counsel mueller's cases, and it's because you want to make sure that the jury is deciding the fact based on what happens in court. and you notice the asymmetry in terms of what is going on, where you don't hear a peep from the government, but you do hear sort of ag nauseam from the defendant. >> this is so fascinating and interesting to watch. i want to ask you about an exchange that kristen vallow, or the new moderator beat the press, had with trump, that stuck out to me so let's play that and then we're gonna talk about that on the other side. >> you called some of your outside lawyers, you said they had crazy theories, and why were you listening to them? we listening to them, because they were telling you what you

wanted to hear >> i saw what happened. i watched that election, and i thought the election was over at 10:00 in the evening. >> so, this is interesting, because they've been using this advice of counsel arguments. so, what did you think about that exchange? >> so, jim, anyone who is any critic of christian walker in meet the press who's like, oh, she's not making news, she just made huge news this morning. because donald trump's defense to january 6th has been one basic thing, which, is i relied on the advice of my lawyers, i didn't have bad criminal intent, it is my lawyers who were telling me to do this, and she got him through a masterful interviewing, and playing to his ego, to go, oh no, i did all myself. . and if you're jack smith this morning, you're going, thank you. that's what i always thought, and yes, you hired these kind of cockamamie crazy lawyers, but at the end of the day, this was you, through and through. this demonstrates his culpability right there and then. and i think makes this case

that judge chutkan has going to trial a march 4th a lot easier. >> so, andrew. if you're jack smith's team, what are you doing is that footage gonna be played in the courtroom, do you think? >> it could be. just to add to gals excellent point the other thing that kristen walker got the president to say is essentially a part of this scheme apart of the obstruction, a part of the 2:41 civil rights scheme, which is the stop of the electoral. count and if you'll remember everyone thought there would be a red mirage, that the night of the election, trump would be ahead, because the mail-in votes had not been counted. and sure enough, trump had said, stop counting. , well that is a crime. he was saying at the time, and he just said on air to nbc, stop counting the votes. well, that is not allowed. that is part of the scheme here. so it's sort of a twofer here.

one, as neil said, not relying on council. and two, saying that he wanted to stop the votes of american citizens. >> so, before i let you go, i want to ask you the other piece of news this week which was about hunter biden's federal indictment, and i know andrea said he's never seen the sort of federal gun charges in his 21 years as a prosecutor, but what did you make of, them and do you think more is coming? >> so, first of, all i've never seen republicans so excited about enforcing gun control laws. so, you know. i think andrew has been absolutely right. these aren't cases that go to criminal prosecution with jail time normally. and that's, of course, with the deal was before, between hunter biden, and this prosecutor, and somehow, that fell apart and that prosecutor has not explained why he's now turning around. but a month ago, no jail time was totally cool. with him now, all of a sudden, very same crimes, he now wants it. and maybe there is an explanation, i think, let's let

that play out and so on, but right now, i'm left more confused perplexed than anything. . >> neil catchall, andrew weissmann, thank you both, as always, and coming up next, congressman camilla jayapal on a looming government shutdown as her republican colleagues trade f bombs behind closed doors. and later, mitt romney says there is one republican senator he could not disrespect more. we will tell you who and break down the refreshing honesty from romney on his way out the door. we are, back after a quick break and year after year, you weathered the storm and just lived with the damage that was left behind. but even after all this time your thyroid eye disease could still change. restoration is still possible. learn how you could give your eyes a fresh start at tedhelp.com. subway refreshed everything. and now, they're slicing their deli meats fresh.

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subject, i watch some of them without the exceptions, et cetera, et cetera. i say, other than certain parts of the country. you are not going to win on this issue,. >> a fair point he is making their, and one that trump kind of proved himself during the same exact interview. >> we are going to agree to a number of weeks, or months, however you want to define it, and both sides are going to come together, and both sides, this is a big statement, both sides will come together and for the first time in 52 years, you will have an issue that we can put behind us. >> at the federal level? >> it could be state, or could be federal, i don't frankly care. >> inarticulate indeed. i honestly don't know what that was, what he was just saying. but messaging is bad. the policies that. so, what is trump to? >> well, he spews outrageous and offensive lines that have repeatedly been debunked in the

same interview. >> the radical people on this are, really the people, the democrats, but say, after five, months six, months seven, months eight, months and even after birth, you are allowed to -- >> act have to say, democrats are not saying that. that is not true. >> democrats are able to kill the baby after birth. nobody wants that. >> let me tell, you democrats want that. either >> you've some states that are allowed to kill the child after birth, and you can allow that. >> but, mister president, allow. that no one is calling for a child to be killed after birth. >> again, trump is not only spreading outrageous lies, he is using the most extreme language he can, purely for shock value, and despite kristen mogul correcting him at every turn you to saw, there that fact-checking is not necessarily what the republican base is going to hear. joining me now is congressman -- from washington, she's the chair of the congressional progressive caucus. so i really wanted to just start right there.

because, you've been outspoken about abortion access and what was your reaction when you heard the former president just discussing abortion in that way and access in that way. >> well, he was flailing around. which is what republicans have been doing, is flailing around because they want to push this extreme, nationwide abortion ban, and 80% of the american people do not want that, including 65% of republicans. so they're in a tough spot. they're trying to push something very extreme, that caters to their extreme right of their party but not even republicans want that. and you can see that with donald trump trying to do the thing that he always does, which is my, and say things that simply aren't true. but he, himself, acknowledged that they are not gonna win on this issue. at the very beginning. and i, believe it or not, jen, i agree with donald trump. republicans are not having great aggressions. the chair of the professional caucus.

we all know a shutdown is looming. >> matt gaetz threats every day to bring a motion to vacate remove speaker kevin mccarthy, we've heard f bombs being dropped in closed-door meetings, what do you say about what is happening around right now with your republican colleagues and the inability to make government function? >> that's, it they cannot govern. and it is sad, i don't take any joy from the situation. because, at the end of the day, the fact that they are pushing this baseless, absurd impeachment of joe biden, the fact that they can't keep a speaker in the chair, and they've essentially made it to the kevin mccarthy is handing the gavel to marjorie taylor greene, and the extreme right wing of his party. but got nothing in return for that. they have not been able to pass 11 out of the 12 appropriations bills. and if you look at the senate, they've passed all 12. that is with a bipartisan majority. and so, what does that mean? it means the american people are ultimately going to lose. they want to cut health and human services funding to 2007

levels. that means people are not gonna get paid, they're not gonna get their childcare, they're not going to get their food stamps, and we're not gonna have fda inspections, which actually people care about, to make sure that their drugs are good. so there's just so much of this that you are going to land on the american people's shoulders, if we have a republican shutdown. and that is what it's going to be. they can't use their own majority to pass appropriations funding bills. >> the impact on people's support and also happening, there's no shortage of things happening in washington right now is this bogus impeachment inquiry into president biden. you wrote an op-ed where you said, mccarthy's impeachment creates a sham, henry did many facts and proof of high crimes and misdemeanors. do you think democrats should be calling this out and the absurdity of it? should they be ignoring it? what is the right strategy? >> we can't ignore, because i'm a judiciary committee, you had jamie raskin from the oversight committee, they are going to bring hearings forward. so we can't ignore it. we should go fully into the

details, because i think the american people understand that this is not about joe biden. this is about republicans putting a shiny new object out there to distract people from the fact that they can't pass funding bills. but, i think, you know, i've sat through an impeachment jury myself on judiciary of donald trump, and those were serious charges. there is 91 felony counts indictments against the former president and there just isn't anything there with joe biden, and even republicans are saying that as well. so i think we can't ignore it, but we can't distract from the fact that that is a distraction of the real work and the fact that republicans can't cover. >> congressman, before that you go really quickly. there is of course a strike happening in michigan right now. and a huge impact on workers kevin impact on our entire auto industry. what should people know about the economic impact of that?

>> yes. two things. one, that ceo pay for these autoworkers has gone up by, 40% in the last four years. worker pay has gone up by 6% in the last four years. these three auto companies earn a quarter of a trillion dollars in profit over the last ten years. and, what happens to these workers is they can't even keep up with inflation. they can't pay their rent, they have a full-time job, but they're classified as temp workers. they don't have guaranteed pensions, they can't live. and it is wrong, jen, and it's why i'm so proud of the united auto workers for striking, for using all of the tools in their tool box to say, you can't treat us like this. this inequality is not fair. >> congressman, thank you for covering a scope of issues of. me it was great to see you today. >> thank, you jen. >> up next, mitt romney pulls back the curtain assumptions on his own party, as he announces he won't seek reelection next

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now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. on wednesday, utah senator and former republican presidential nominee, mick romney, announced he would not run for reelection in 2024. since arriving in washington in 2019, he has been one of the rare and disappearing

republican voices in congress who is willing to push back against donald trump and his strain of maga politics. he is a fascinating public figure who in just over a decade went from the republican standard, the nominee of his party, to an anomaly within the party he wants blood. as he prepares his exit, he is speaking pretty candidly about what his party has become, and his concerns about that. the same day that romney made his announcement, the atlantic published this piece. what mitt romney saw in the senate. it's a very good read. it's an excerpt from a forthcoming biography by author mccabe -- who for the past two years has had incredible access to romney, his personal journalist, correspondents, and notes. much of what mitt romney describes seen in the senate is what we have sensed is happening behind the scenes, even those of us who are behind the scenes. what's so striking about his account? donald trump is not the sole problem, he describes a party of enablers who are desperate to stay in power. republicans publicly playing

their parts as trump loyalists, but in private, they are quick to roll their eyes and ridicule him. as ramy recalls, muncy new republican senator says, he has none of the qualities you would want in a president, and all of the qualities you wouldn't. many of the republican lawmakers see what we see, it's clearly not entirely partisan to believe that donald trump is unfit for office, so why have so many of them stood by him, time and time again? well, senator romney shed some light on that as well. prior to the senate trial of trump's first impeachment, romney says mitch mcconnell urged him to end the trial as soon as the opening arguments were completed. mcconnell's calculation was that keeping power was more important than anything resembling accountability. in a similar calculation that romney watched for publicans make just a year later, when they endorsed donald trump's election lines. romney says republicans like josh hawley and ted cruz were both making a calculation that

put politics above the interests of liberal democracy and the constitution. in the months after january six, romney realized it wasn't just them. he said, quote, a very large portion of my party really doesn't believe in the constitution. now, for me, it is both incredibly refreshing to hear republican lawmakers speak bluntly about what we've all watched with their own eyes about donald trump, and it is also extremely frustrating. each time republicans make that calculation and rationalize what is convenient over what is right, the line of what is acceptable moves further away. we have seen where that can lead us. the calculation by far too many republicans to enable trump for political expediency has served to radicalize members of their own base. to the point that the threat of political violence has become very real in america. romney details that after january six, during trump's second impeachment. members of congress were afraid

to vote to convict him out of fear for their own families. one republican senator of leadership was talked out of voting to conduct after other members urged him to, quote, think of your personal safety. think of your's children. let's pause on that for a moment. elected members of the senate, in leadership, were afraid to vote their conscience because they were afraid their families would be at risk of physical harm. that is both shocking, and not entirely surprising. it isn't theoretical. election workers, judges, lawyers, and so many others have faced threats of physical violence from maga extremists. what mitt romney, the lifelong and vote republican details here, is a party that's accepted those threats as business as usual. one but romney details as a party that's only got in principle, at the top, is the pursuit of power and literally any costs. hopefully, america will listen to his warning. kevin madame, a longtime senior

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out his own party and prepare us to step off the national stage, who better to talk to than somebody who worked on both of his presidential campaigns and knows the senator quite well? joining me now is mitt romney a former senior adviser, kevin madam. i can't wait to read this book. i think i'm not alone. >> it's a page turner. >> it's going to be a pace. general lot of us reading the piece in the atlantic saw sides of senator romney that we had not seen. maybe we suspected. you know, well did anything surprise you in the piece that came out in the atlantic? >> one of the things that surprised me as mitt romney is a very private guy, right? i know that he would run for public office. it's sort of an invasive process, a lot of people saw and heard mitt romney, but there's a lot of things about emotions, private thoughts. i think some of the stuff that he agonizes over, he was previously, you know, kept us a close hold.

sort of an old school approach,? right to that. and it really opened up. i think genuine emotion, genuine feelings, and things that he agonized over, assorted given that some air to the public. that surprised me the most. the thing that i liked the most about the excerpt was that it talked about how he had genuine and noble intentions when it came to the senate, and as you so genuine and noble attempts to do good work on behalf of the people of utah, but also to bring a statesmanship, i think, to a lot of the natural debates. whether it's about public, whether it's national security, your public response to covid. that there is a real agony, again, i use the term because i hadn't really seen it in public before, the way i had through these excerpts. , about the canyon that is emerged between what people are saying publicly about the threat of donald trump, and what people are saying privately. >> reading nets, there is an anchor that came across, right? it comes, he made clear that he

came with great intentions. he came to work across the party lines when warranted. it's the angry? is he angry that he couldn't do more to change things in washington? >> i don't think it's anger. i, i thought there was a bit of an element of a confessional to it, all which is that he was genuinely struggling with some of the intentions of his colleagues, and wanted to sort of give them the best, season through the best view, but then oftentimes i think he came to the conviction that oftentimes they were not stepping up to their public rule the way they should be when it came to confronting some of the challenges that they see not only inside the party, but the challenges that the country faces if we are going to go in the right direction. that's, yeah, i think he was going to bring some of that sunlight. >> it really struck, we worked on opposing campaigns. they ran against each other. you forget how much politics has changed quite a bit in that way. lots of policy disagreements.

given romney is one of these where republican voices in congress right now, he's actually not afraid to say what he thinks out loud, not just behind closed doors. he talks about passing the torch. who does he want to pass the torch to? >> that was one of the other genuine question marks, i think, that came out of this. i think he is really cognizant of the fact that his age, and his station in life right now, that there are some limitations that come with that. this idea that the people, and i think it's accurate, an accurate assessment, that somebody needs to step up for the new generation, take the country in the right direction, and really give a voice to some of the forensics inside the party, and the challenges the country faces. when you look at the question he asks republicans, who is the next generation? he was the next mitt romney. when you look behind, you see some of the people listening in the, party like ramaswamy, that's not about romney and the party. so there are probably more out there than there are made from

me. i think this is a genuine instinct that he has that is right, but it is actually still going to require the voice of mitt romney, and others who are mitt romney supporters like me, inside the party to really crystalize that message, and play a bigger role going forward. >> it is, did i mean, you've been a republican operator for a long time. i know you're in the private sector now. what gives you hope? is there anything that gives you hope about the future of the party? >> while, i am certainly optimistic that we can make, we can have our arguments about public policy where i can say jen psaki is wrong, not jen psaki as bad intentions for this country. i think that it's increasingly, we have to find forms that provide that type of platform for people who disagree. i am hopeful that that could continue. i do think that some of the lines that mitt romney has identified, they still need work. >> thank you for joining me today. it was such an interesting read.

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here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. that's it for me today. be sure to follow the show on twitter, tiktok, instagram. a reminder that you can listen to every episode on the show as a podcast for free. search for jen psaki whenever you get your podcasts. we'll be here, next sunday, noon eastern. stay right where you, are there's much more news coming up on msnbc. >> in fact, this hour, more jen

psaki. she's with me just a few minutes. we're going to talk about the lack of an impeachment case against president biden, and the huge rescue republicans are taking by pursuing its. a new column criticizing biden's inner circle, plus, the had made in hainan about the vice president that seem to come out of left field this past week. later, the new trump interview on meet the press, and whether the former president just added to his own legal problems. >> as they put you all a very good day from msnbc world headquarters here in new york, welcome, everyone, to alex witt reports. we begin with donald trump in an exclusive interview. sitting down with new meet the press moderator, christian walker, on a wide array of issues, and his role in the january 6th capitol attack. here is his take on