refuse it. it's not enough that you know, the theater came out and said hey, we removed her because she was being disruptive. she came out with her own version, she tried to spin it. and then, they were compelled to release the video, to show that she was vaping, that this was happening, this behavior was happening, because nowadays, republicans have the ability to tell their followers straight applies even in the face of hard evidence. >> don't believe your lying eyes. >> don't believe your lying eyes, exactly. great show as always, i enjoyed it, have a very good evening. >> coming up tonight on ayman, breaking reaction from president biden on republicans evidence free impeachment inquiry, and how damaging this could be, for the republicans 2024 chances. plus, democrats plans for fighting back, i'm speaking with congressman robert garcia, the hills oversight committee. and then, fani willis's case, live and in color, the critical importance of broadcasting this week's hearings, in the georgia election trial. e georgi election trial

♪ ♪ ♪ all right tonight, there is new reaction from to top democrats to house republicans impeachment inquiries. the inquiry that was launched, with no formal vote, no outstanding evidence of wrongdoing. and, no hope of being taken seriously by the american people. here is former house speaker nancy clark pelosi, on msnbc earlier. >> impeachment is deadly serious. this is a remedy that our founders put in the constitution, to for a rogue official. they could foresee would have a rogue president of the united states they, couldn't foresee that we would have a rogue president, and a rogue senate, a rogue congress. but nonetheless, for them to use this in a frivolous way and that they are, it's really a disservice to our country, into our constitution. >> all right, let's recall what

that robe president was, was actually doing back in 2019. donald trump, using american taxpayer funded military aid, as leverage, tried to get the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyy, to dig up dirt on his opponent, joe biden. in a transcript of that phone call came to light, then speaker pelosi had no choice but to immediately open impeachment inquiry. and that move infuriated that minority leader kevin mccarthy. he was supposedly so outraged, because pelosi had not linked her inquiry with a formal vote in the house. now, in a public letter to pelosi, he asked do you intend to hold a vote of the full house, authorizing your impeachment inquiry? by answering no, you would create a process completely devoid of any merit or legitimacy. i'm going to repeat that. a process, completely devoid of any merit, or legitimacy. it's pretty rich, considering

that's exactly what kevin mccarthy did this week. but of course, it's really no secret that kevin mccarthy contains multitudes of hypocrisy's. the real question i have is, why? why he flipped on impeachment so dramatically? because putting aside the constitutional implications of what he is doing with this inquiry, his decision is all but certain to impact next year's house elections. there is new reaction from president biden tonight. >> what do you think of republicans opening an impeachment inquiry into? you >> lots of luck. >> kevin mccarthy, why put your razor thin, five seat house majority at risk one, that includes 18 republicans who represent districts that president biden actually won in 2020. the answer is actually pretty simple. he is just simply trying to save his job. as russell berman writes in the atlantic, mccarthy does not

have the support to open impeachment inquiry, through a floor vote, but to avoid a revote from the hard-liners, he had to announce an inquiry anyway. >> and, so for the short term when of maintaining his lead script on the speaker's gavel, mccarthy as perhaps doomed his party to electoral disaster. and i say perhaps here, because nothing is ever certain in politics. but, we actually kind of have seen this play out before. look at 1998. then house speaker newt gingrich, who led the successful republican revolution in the 1994 midterms, allowed his disdain for president clinton, and his desperation to remain in power, to override basic political instincts. he and his republican's, chose to spoke stoke the anger of his right-wing base, and impeach clinton for his affair with monica lewinsky, ignoring polls that actually showed an overwhelming majority of americans wanted clinton to remain in office, despite his acts. gingrich's ego trip resulted

another disaster in november, 1998. republicans ultimately lost five seats in the house, made no gains in the senate, making them the first party since the civil war, to lose seats to the party of an incumbent president, in his second midterm election. and republicans that quickly turned on new gingrich, they forced him to step down as speaker, in the days after that crushing defeat. so, i'm not a politician, but here's my advice. if i were kevin mccarthy, i would be sweating. history doesn't always repeat itself, but, it often rhymes. joining me now, danny -- and msnbc legal analyst, and a critical defense attorney dániel -- host of woke a f daily podcast, and coats of the democracy -- and the new abnormal podcast. and maria teresa -- msnbc contributor and president and ceo of voto latino. it would have all three of you with us. danielle, i'll start with you. as i noted, the last time republicans ignored the public sentiment, and pursued an

impeachment against a democratic president, do you know what happened, the american people hammered them come election season. do you think kevin mccarthy realizes the political risk he is taking here? >> i do, and i also, i disagree with the fact that people aren't calling kevin mccarthy a hostage. he is not a hostage, a hostage is a victim. he is a willing accomplice to the right wing of his party. he wants power, they promised him power, as long as he would do their bidding. and that is what he is going to. and yes, you are right, history doesn't often repeat itself, but it does rhyme. and it rhymes for -- looser. he has a five seat, slim majority. he is not going to hold that, in 2024, and he knows it. and so, he has to try to flex now. but he doesn't have the votes, he doesn't have the base, and everyone knows that he is a jellyfish. but you know, go off. >> so let me ask you this danny, for those of us who have been following this now for months,

james comer had an oversight committee, he had an investigation, he has been looking into this. what is the legal difference between an impeachment inquiry, and the investigation into republicans that they have been doing since day one of their leadership in the house? is there something different, do they have any more thorny than what they've had over the past several months? and, why is he catching this as some kind of new twist and turn. because he is very clear he is like, it may not lead to impeachment, but it is an impeachment inquiry. >> yeah, i've heard the analogy that just because an impeachment inquiry starts, doesn't mean there will be an impeachment. i've heard that analogize to jumping out of a plane. you can't and jump back into the plane, when you're halfway down, and you're skydiving. [laughter] i can't take credit for, i read it somewhere, i don't remember where. but the point is, the distinction isn't so much legal, as it is political. because, there is precedent for it by passing the entire impeachment inquiry process, and just going straight to impeachment. almost every present, i think with the exception of obama, since 1981, has had impeachment

resolutions introduced against him. however, impeachment inquiries, there have only been a handful of presidents who have faced them. but, the net reality is that it is really just a political formality, congress can still issue subpoenas, they could have issued subpoenas before. so, the change is really more symbolic. >> yeah, i was going to say that. because really, it's about how much these subpoenas can be enforced. >> congress does have a subpoena enforcement problem, to be sure. and as difficult as we have seen for them to enforce subpoenas, they have to make referrals to doj, they want to take it to the alternate level. and then, the doj can still declined to prosecute them, because the doj ultimately retains independents. so, the distinction is not so much legal, it is much more political, and probably even more than, that. symbolic >> are you suggesting that kevin mccarthy has engaged in a political gamesmanship, and yet a theater? >> i guess i would have to say impossibly --

this weekend, minority leader hakeem jeffries said the house gop is in the midst of a civil war. i mean, it's obvious that anyone who is watching this can see. that impeachment, potential government shutdown, are just the latest leaders of this battle, where the extreme right of the party are going to go against the less extreme far-right of the party. what is your reaction? >> well i think goes back to this idea that, kevin mccarthy needs to keep his job at all cost. and he recognizes, while impeachment may be farfetched, he needs to get matt gaetz and the freedom caucus in line, to avoid a government shutdown. so he is using this as a strategy,, as a tactic to get the most extreme part of his party at the table, to a void of government shutdown. because you know what voters don't like? they like less than this ability not to impeach a president? what they like less is not getting a paycheck, but they like less is a spiraling economy. so the end of the day, this is a tactic that we have seen. we recognize that right now while the election is right around the corner, we have,

right now, a possible government shutdown, at mccarthy's front door. >> and danielle, speaking of the impeachment, as me and mattie were talking about here, the texas attorney general ken paxton, he was acquitted on his impeachment trial this week. there was a lot of pressure in the campaign that was launched by steve bannon, and other trump allies. if the house ever does vote to impeach biden, i imagine, will we see similar threats directed at republicans in the senate, who are hesitant to fall in line? >> absolutely, i mean this republican party, that's what they do, is that they threatened one another, right. they use the power of their weaponized base, in order to threaten these people. i mean, we were listening about mitt romney's upcoming book, in the fact that oh, we don't want to vote for impeachment of donald trump, because we are afraid for our families. so, in any way that they can lie over these people, threats of violence, they will. and so, it's just, this republican party is it's not your grandfather's republican

party, it's not your father's republican party, and they need to be called out for what they are doing. that impeachment down in texas, it was a sham. of what they put together, and the fact that steve bannon could walk in, and just flip the switch, is wild, it's wild, and it's dangerous. >> let me ask you about, just looking at. i don't know how, to an extent you have seen the kind of merits of the conversation around the impeachment itself, and what republicans consider to be evidence. but as a lawyer, what do you make of what has been presented publicly so far, by republicans? because they keep seeing to the american public, there is something there. and then when you asked him, when reporters asked a well, what's the evidence? they i, they don't really present anything concrete, definitive and say, here it is, we have the receipts of the 10 million dollar bribe that is alleged to have gone to the bidens. there is no hard proof, but as a lawyer, objectively speaking, have you seen anything that you think warrants this impeachment inquiry? >> yes, and i will summon up

quickly. there would be yes, there is evidence of impeachable offenses, if, hunter biden where the president. and he is not. so therefore, the answer is no. there doesn't appear to be any evidence, other than suggestions. we can dive into the evidence. some of the evidence that joe biden may have profited from hunter biden's misdeeds, or alleged misdeeds, or shenanigans, are really little more than rumor, and innuendo at this point. is there evidence that hunter biden has done not-so-great things? yes, absolutely. but he is not the president. and that he connection, you need that nexus between hunter biden, and the president. now, is their rumor and innuendo, sure. and that is the republicans bassist for going forward. they are saying essentially well, there seems to be some smoke, let's go look for some fire. >> but that's my point really quickly, is that for the last nine months, they have been doing that in these committees. and i said this last night on the program. hunter biden, if you don't like hunter biden, if you think hundred biden has done something illegal, everyone is

saying, clearly he should be held accountable. he is not running for office, he has never been in office. the question, is whether or not you impeach the president. and my question again is, again, in the past nine months they've been holding these inquiries, they've been bringing in witnesses, they say they have documents. they have not yet, and correct me if i'm wrong, they have not yet proved that nexus between hunter biden and the president. >> i would agree. especially in terms of, if you are talking about the criminal standard of probable cause to go get an indictment. i haven't seen any of. that but you asked about impeachment. you know, the key thing to remember, and if i may criticize the framers of our constitution, they get it they did a great disservice, when they framed the idea of impeachment as something akin to, or cause medically similar to a criminal trial. amen, it is nothing like that. in reality, it is little more than a congressional debate. because, there is no criminal trial in the world, where the jurors are this biased, or that you can get a head count, and know the outcome of a criminal trial, from the jurors, before the trial even begins. that would be a trial that

would be totally unacceptable in the united states. and yet, for impeachment purposes, no problem. >> for the most powerful position in the land, nonetheless. maria, teresa some question, the same question to you that i had earlier about biden and paxton impeachment efforts, as examples. what role do facts even play, when it comes to impeachment efforts at this point? >> well facts should be critical in deciding whether or not you go with a proceeding. but, as your guest said, that's not what's happening here. it's completely biased, and -- it's a disservice not to political parties, but it's a disservice to democracy, to our institutions, to the peoples trust. and what is really difficult to see is when you start pulling americans, depending on whether or not they -- this it depends on what they are, watching what they are, hearing who their friends are. and it is that type of media silos that we have, that really impacts whether or not somebody has a fresh analysis. so it's great, ayman that you

are going into this analysis right, not so that we can continue to say that americans who are ready to listen to the truth, are getting attention. >> all right panel, please stick around, we're going to come back to you later on in the air. we got a lot more to discuss with all of you. after the break, and speak with congressman robert garcia, about how the democrats plan to fight this evidence free impeachment inquiry. but first, my friend richard louis is here with the headline. hey. richard >> well -- the uaw as spoke with gm, and has productive conversations with forward today. the union rejected still insist proposal, and will resume talks monday. 13,000 auto workers, now on strike for a third day. the biden administration also saying it will send a team early this week, to help resolve that strike. ukraine's president plans to meet with senators at the capitol thursday, and says a senate leadership aide who spoke with nbc news. also if that agenda, a meeting with president, biden at the white house, and the un general assembly, at new york city. and, to people face murder charges, after four children were exposed to opioids at a

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we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. democrats on the house oversight committee are preparing for an active defense of president biden, as their republican counterparts pursue their evidence free impeachment inquiry. nbc news reports that the

ranking member on the panel, congressman jamie raskin, has held several strategy sessions with his fellow democrats this year. and the very latest meeting, which took place just last week, raskin told members to prepare for a bruising battle. but according to politico, the white house isn't too concerned about this inquiry. quote, in the white house's eyes, the gop is moving headfirst into an impeachment inquiry that has no evidence of partisan actual wrongdoing, no process, no timeline, and no requests for interviews. to that, it all suggests that the house gop isn't prepared to make a convincing case to their own moderate members, let alone the broader american people. joining me now is a member of the house oversight committee, democratic congressman robert garcia of california. congressman, great to have you back on the show. you know, let's kind of delve into this a little bit. what discussions are taking place right now among you, and your oversight colleagues? can you share with us what, if at all, the strategy that you have developed to defend the president in the face of this

evidence free inquiry? >> absolutely, happy to be here. i mean look, i think what you just said here was absolutely right. the truth is, there's absolutely zero evidence linking the president to any sort of wrongdoing. we have seen now for months and months, james comer, who of course heads the oversight committee, just trying to come after the president, the president's family, with all of these essentially bogus investigations. their star witness at one point, do you remember and being in arms dealer. and so, we had zero linkage to the president. we understand that right now, hunter biden is going through the judicial system. we support that. but we are coming up with strategies to protect the actual president, who is an absolutely nothing wrong. and, jamie raskin is absolutely right. what we are doing every single day as house democrats, on the committee, is focusing on the facts. and what we know, most importantly, is that if this inquiry is all about reelecting donald trump. it's been very clear, by folks like marjorie taylor greene, who basically runs the caucus

now for the republicans. this is all about a political stunt, to help get donald trump elected. she has also made a very clear that if we do not inform, or have an inquiry, then she is, ready and others like matt gaetz and others, already to shut down the government. so this inquiry actually, it's not based on any sort of reality. there is nothing to actually go on. and so, we know they're going to throw this political stunt, and we're gonna come back with facts, and truth, every single time. and as we know right now, as you said with your guests earlier, there's just nothing to link the president with any sort of wrongdoing. this impeachment inquiry is a joke. >> all right so, there's two things that i want to discuss if you. one is the evidence, and the facts. and then two is the politics of this. because as we have been hearing, and i am in agreement with you, republicans are doing this because they want to have something to hang over the president, politically, going into the election. i believe they want to be able to say look, president trump has been impeached, president biden has been impeached. let's overlook, that and just focus. that's the strategy here, but

republicans are also showing they are supposed insights into biden's crimes, they don't really hold any weight. they are coming up empty handed. i mean, you've got the oversight chair, james comer, lying about his request for hunter biden's bank records. where, how do you defend against both the politics, and the evidence? >> well first i mean, james comer has done a terrible job of actually trying to lead the committee intimate with any sort of credible facts. there are people now within his own caucus, that are starting to turn on him, and realizing that he himself is essentially lying in the press, exaggerating claims, a claim that he has found certain witnesses, folks that get deposed actually end up saying that there was no link to the president. comer of course, ends up essentially creating a storyline that doesn't exist. and so, i think that he is more and more getting really, i think, some serious concerns from his own caucus, about him

leading this impeachment inquiry. and on the democratic side, we are united. we know there's no, like we know there's no facts. and we really focus on just ensuring that every single day, we tell the truth. then if we do not allow this to become, essentially, a circus run by marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz, which is essentially what it is. you see, kevin mccarthy no longer has control over this caucus. he has no control over the agenda, and so we have folks that are now essentially running this impeachment inquiry, to damage president biden, to help donald trump, and they are willing to shut down the government over. and as far as the politics are concerned, honestly, we are not concerned, we were to focus on the truth. and i think the president is right, he should be concerned either. this whole impeachment process has no. wait >> so, it seems that. i want to get your thoughts on this. we've got a glimpse of it with president biden's response, when he was boarding, or d boarding air force one, or marine one at the white house today. someone asked him about, and he wished them lots of luck. it seems that biden is trying to prove the american people that he can keep his focus on

the presidency, rather than the republican manufactured chaos, that they are trying to engulf the men. what do you think we might see from the white house, in its response to the impeachment inquiry? i mean is there a risk that if they don't take it seriously, or they don't engage with it, that something like what happened with the benghazi committee affecting hillary clinton and her political chances in 2016 may happen, with president biden? are you at all all concerned about that? i mean look first, the president is right. he and the white house are focused on an agenda for the american people, and i think of the accomplishments that happen. we want the president focus on governing the country. and so i think that is the most important thing. but look, we are also preparing, and the white house is engaged with any time the oversight committee has information, or we need additional support, to help us in our own, increase in our own process, the white house is, they're getting us all the information that we need. but the president himself needs to be focused. so, while the president's governing the country, us in

congress are going to push back on these lies, every single day. the white house is, they're supporting our efforts, every single day. and so the team, as democrats, as folks that actually want to save our democracy, we are doing that work. i think the president should be focused on the job he is doing, delivering results, more lower prescription drug prices, getting infrastructure done. and, the public knows. i mean look, just what a week ago, marjorie taylor greene essentially telegraphed to the entire country, that she basically was pushing this, to essentially shut down the government. and for her, the most important thing was just getting rid of biden, to help donald trump. and so that's where this impeachment inquiry is all about. >> congressman robert garcia, always a pleasure sir, thank you so much for coming back on the show. >> thanks so much. >> and next, we are to discuss the importance of televising the hearings, in a trump's criminal trials. stay with. us stay with. us

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news out of fulton county, georgia for you. on thursday, the judge overseeing d.a. fani willis's election interference case against donald trump, and his 18 codefendants, officially severed the trials of two of those defendants. former trump lawyer sydney powell, and kenneth chesebro, who had both invoked the rights to a speedy trial. so, what does that mean? well, it means that donald trump, and 16 of his invited coconspirators, are now off the hook hook for an october 23rd crowded. instead, they will be tried at a later date, most likely next year. judge mcafee's ruling dealt a blow to d.a. willis's team, who had actually hoped, and believed, they could try all 19 defendants indicted in the same sprawling conspiracy case, simultaneously, starting next month. the hearing also marked the second time that the american public was able to witness a hearing in this case. or frankly, any case involving the disgraced, quadruple indicted ex presidents, unfold on tv.

viewers across the country, in the political spectrum, we're able to tune in, draw their own conclusions, on the merits of the arguments presented by both prosecution and the defense, as it should be. and that kind of raw, unfiltered access, will become even more crucial, as the october trial date approaches. all right let's bring back my sunday night panel. so danny, i will start with you, what did you think of judge mcafee's ruling here in this case, to sever the trials about sydney powell, and kenneth chesebro? >> i think it was the right call. and i think, we may see more motions for severance before this is said and done. as the other defendants consider their options, and as the case moves forward. but, even that severed case, i don't think it's likely to go forward, on the date that the judge sets. >> the 23rd? >> yes. we will talk about the remaining codefendants. remember this number, 2025. i think it's a very distinct possibility that opening statements do not start until 2025. and i am using a little bit of

misdirection here, because i said opening statements. and i say that because number one, i think there will be considerable delays in georgia. number, two there is currently a case in fulton county, a r.i.c.o. case, involving a much less notorious defendant, that has been in jury selection for eight months. jury selection, so even if they get started with jury selection in 2024, there's a decent chance that the other defendants don't seek trial until 2020. five >> so how is that, fair or, that a trial can take that long, is it just procedural delays? i mean we know that that is going to be trump strategy, right? welcome to the world of criminal defense, there is nothing fair about its. [laughter] oh if we can, yes we do. and, really, that's the problem with criminal defense. and for prosecutors, there is virtually no way to plan your life, because you have no idea when a case that you expect it would take a week, might take six weeks. and in this case, i am just airing on the side of longer. let me just give you exhibit a.

we are what, a month into the georgia indictment? we've got motions to sever, the case was briefly in federal court. and, i thought it had a very good chance of staying in federal court, and then if it had, there would've been a chance that all defendants would have been in federal court. that's just a month into it. and this is already a procedural ball of yarn. i still, i stand by -- nolan saves the date -- 2025 opening statements. >> is that a legal term, political ball adjourned? >> yes absolutely, a procedural ball adjourned. [laughter] >> -- trump has managed to avoid this october trial date, as a defendant. but he will no doubt play a big role, both in sydney powell, and chesbrough's defense. you know if, it does start, if it doesn't turn october 23rd, we will see. that trial will be broadcast, what kind of impact do you think this could have on trump? >> i think it's a very similar to the impact that we witness from the january six committee, aired all their hearings. it creates a level of

transparency for the american people, so that they can be part of the proceedings, and see for themselves. and -- as i say earlier, in a moment where americans don't trust institutions, they think that the cards might be stacked against the president in this. case it allows them to see what exactly he is on trial for, and a very clear way. and, it's also vindication, i think for a lot of folks that have been saying for a long time, that there is a reason why trump is going to court. it also gives us an opportunity to, again, demonstrate that even in a democracy, as ours, we are so many people are constantly questioning whether we are strong or not, worldwide. it demonstrates that even someone with so many indictments deserves a fair trial. in a place where democracy still rules. as you know, our democracy right now is increasingly under threat -- most people, that have been indicted, as the president has been, would not get a fair trial. this demonstrates that our institutions are still strong, despite that. and, it also makes sure that

again, the american people are witnesses to what is happening in the courtroom every day. >> so danielle, the big question i have for, you at the georgia case, it's unique because of the presence of cameras in the courtroom. we are not going to see that in any other trump trial, at least for, now unless there's some kind of massive shift, which i doubt, but who knows. how crucial is it for the american people, to be able to watch these hearings, and then ultimately, a trial unfold in realtime? do we risk, as danny was suggesting, if this thing drags on, that viewers become, they tune out, or there is viewer fatigue, if every procedural hearing is shown live, because we are drawn to, it because of the interest we have in it? >> i mean, i think that there is a risk, in the fact that people are just exhausted by donald trump, and his criminality, altogether. but i do think that being able to see with your own eyes, as opposed to getting secondhand information from fox about -- is really important, for the

american people to see what is happening, and what donald trump is on trial for, to be able to look up the information themselves, and to see how this judge is acting. and right now, i think that he is acting pretty fairly, right. which is the idea that 19 people, sitting in one courtroom, with all of their lawyers, all of their staff, was never going to happen. and so, while i hope that day is gone, i always at least appreciate the insight. i really hope that it is not 2025, that we are hearing opening statements, and i hope that we can get this logistical nightmare done sooner, rather than. later danny is always, wrong he does not have a really good track record, but we still love him here on the show. that's why apartment. no i'm joking [laughter] . >> a little bit here and there, -- we >> hang on, when you brought up an attempt to delay, more on him to delay, but a time to get mark meadows to move it to federal court, the judge rules against, him saying he didn't have grounds for this case, to force truly moved to federal court. does, is that the end of the

road for mark meadows one, and two, does that have bearing, to think on, what happens after with trump, trying to have this case of the federal court. ? >> yeah, mark meadows's removal effort is still in play, in my view, in the appellate courts. because i believe it was a close call. i think it could have gone either way. and i can't say enough, what a massive sea changes would be, if mark meadows could not only drag his case up to the federal court, and also if that meant that the other defendants, headed to federal court. a great example, if you watched that hearing, just last week in georgia, in state court, the defense pointed out a number of times, and i was sympathetic to the defense attorneys, if not the defense. but, the idea that state prosecutors are very accustomed to prosecuting in their courtroom, their, way their style. if the defendants can get this case into federal court, it's a significant strategic advantage, than using federal procedure, in an unfamiliar place. most days offices are in the same building as the courthouse.

this va's office, i believe, is just across the street. so, if mark meadows, if all he did was lose a bid to stay, that means just we pause these proceedings while this case works itself out, in the appellate court. in this case, it's already moving slowly enough, that the stay is necessary. meadows could still prevail, but the important thing about this particular removal statute provision, that the criminal case does go on, while he is fighting that removal. >> all right, we're going to hold on to the tape, just to see if danny is right. danny -- danielle moodie -- thank you to the three of, you greatly appreciated. coming up, the man who is sounding the alarm on our democracy, head of the 2024 election, don't go anywhere. n't go anywhere.

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report titled, 24 for 24. the report issues 24 policy recommendations for safeguarding the integrity of our upcoming 2024 elections. among these reprimand they shunts, quote, state should adopt permanent, general emergency statutes to protect the right to vote. states should strengthen laws to protect elected officials from violence, threats of violence, and alleviate unnecessary burdens on such officials. and folks, social media and what website platform should preserve their capacity to address false information about when,, where and how people vote. and other threats to free and fair elections. look, it's frankly sad that 2023, when need to discuss how to secure our elections. but, the truth is that is the wild donald trump and his allies have created for us when they attempted to overturn the 2020 results. and when an alleged coup plotter says that he wants to return to the white house?

i think we all have to pay serious attention to it. ucla law school professor, rick hansen, is the founder of the safeguarding democracy process. the group responsible putting together this report. he joins me now. records great to have you back on the show. really appreciate you taking time for us. i want to start with what motivated you and your colleagues to write this report. what are the warning signs that you see blinking right now and whether or not there was something specific that you witness that made you say i need to do this? >> well it is actually the second time that we have done this. a group of us got together in the run up to the 2020 election. we started deliberating just before covid hit the united states and we recognize we were gonna be facing some new threats to the integrity of the election. with the candidates who claimed the election was going to be stolen and with people not being able to vote in a safe and healthy way in their usual places. so we came up with a rush of

recommendations. some of those recommendations were followed. it seems to me that we now face new challenges. mercifully the covid situation has gone better. the situation when it comes to peoples confidence in the election system has gotten worse. and the number of election officials who are leaving because of threats of violence or just because they don't want to put up with a hassle. those people are leaving and that creates new opportunities for people to we, bad actors to get in there. but also you lose a lot of the institutional membrane for people in elections. so it seems now with a little bit more time before we actually pulled the election in november of 2024, there are things that can be done and media politics to make things better. >> speaking of bad actors. i guess one of the dangers you could say or argue is that the 2022 in the midterms you had some bad actors that were running. people like kari lake, mastriano for example. people who are all in on the trump lie that the election was

stolen. and people vie for the political conditions. secretaries of states. they end up losing their races but is there now a greater threat we and you now have officials pursuing these who are now prescribe is on the big lie, and could not only in the cycle, but future cycles, undermined the actual processes of the election? >> first of all, not every election denier who ran for elections last. it's true they lost in swing states. there are secretaries of state to parodied the false claim that the 2020 election was stolen. all signs say that we had good and fair elections even during the pandemic. we have since 2020, some election officials who have been accused of leaking software that shows how ballot counting technology works so there is a new insight and we

have specific recommendations and we keep looking at some of the recommendations that comes out of the federal government program that deals with election security and how to ensure that we have a good chain of custody that people can be confident that votes and people cast will be accounted. and we have a centralized system and we have checks in every chance of that system that people were not only -- but we have a free and fair election. >> the setup here, some of your recommendations. let's talk about some of the potential roadblocks. obviously, it's one thing for new york in california to adopt them, but what about states like georgia and wisconsin? how do you make progress in states that frankly need to implement your recommendations the most, but have these very ideological officials running their elections? >> you know when you get down to the local level, and in my

experience most of those people who are actually running elections, the county run officials, and the county election officials, they want to do the right thing. sometimes they face interference from state legislators that have ideas. but the question is can we find common ground and one of the things that i thought was really important to this, when we brought together this group of experts it wasn't just experts in politics and in tech. it was experts across the spectrum. get people in the room they're not going to agree about immigration or abortion or those kinds of topics but they're going to agree that we need to have free and fair elections. that's the whole idea behind the safeguarding of democracy project. once we can agree upon, and make things better, that can make our elections more secure and ensure that people can be franchise who are allowed to vote, and there is a lot of common ground and hopefully some of those things can be done at the county level. and one of the biggest things that congress and the states can do is come up with enough

money. a lot of complaints from conservatives that mark zuckerberg foundation spent a lot of money trying to prop up the elections in 2020, well, we never would've needed that money if congress and states what it stepped up and recognize that it was gonna cost more in the general election and the pandemic so we say private funding should be a last result but we need public funding. and that's something that will help everybody across the spectrum can agree on. >> elon musk, i mean your report goes into detail about how social media platforms should be doing. and as you know, x, thou read by elon musk. there is been this back and forth that he has brought on, president trump back on to the platform. certainly facebook as well. how do you work around what we are seeing right now play out on social media platforms, something like x? >> my views are social media companies are private actors. they have social media rights

to exclude content. so the question is can the public and those who work for these companies pressure them to do the right thing? if people are going to lie about when or how people vote. that needs to be corrected. unfortunately a lot of the companies like meta, and x, and google have decimated the teams that they have to deal with these trusted security questions. so one of our recommendations is units of people in place to deal with this. we do not want people to be disenfranchised by getting false information about just the very mechanics of voting. i'm not talking about people making contested political claims. we're talking about where is your polling place. am i allowed to vote? there is a guy back in 2016 who try to have people told black americans they should vote by social media hashtag or text. he's now been convicted of a crime to try to interfere with our people vote. that basic stuff needs to be policed by social media companies. i hope they are going to do so. >> now you have people by a blue check mark and pretend that they are polling station

in georgia and say hey are pulling numbers are gonna be x and y in that turns out to be wrong and people get thrown into a chaotic situation. recast and it's always a pleasure. thank you so much for joining us and sharing your insights on this. we will be following the story very closely. up next, a rare and powerful moment of truth from justice ketanji brown jackson. tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪

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justice jackson spoke at the 16 straight baptist church and birmingham, alabama this week. where she commemorated the 16th anniversary of the racist bombing that killed four young black girls. >> i have come to alabama with a heart filled with gratitude, for unlike those four little girls, i have lived. and have been interested with the solemn responsibility of serving our great nation. they could have broken barriers, they could have shattered ceilings, they have grown up to be doctors, or lawyers, or doctors to serve on the highest court in our land. i know that a atrocities like the one year memorializing today are difficult to remember and relive. but i also know that it is dangerous to forget them. >> the public remarks are rare for justice jackson and her warning not to forget histories ugliest moments.

of course comes as a crucial time in this country's, as elected republicans take us back in -- and civil rights. i wanna let justice jackson of the last word. >> if we are going to continue to move forward as a nation, we cannot allow concerns about discomfort to displace knowledge, truth, or history. we cannot forget because the uncomfortable lessons are often the ones that teach us the most about ourselves. >> and with that, i want to thank you for making time for us this evening. you can't catch a man back here on nbc's saturdays at, eight sundays at nine. make sure to follow us on tiktok, twitter, and instagram. all at him in msnbc. until we meet again, i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good night! ime. (jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level.

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to the special edition of the bait. over the next hour we will be covering some of the developments in the several cases pending against donald trump in the trial, and the allies, and enablers caught up in what we are seeing as a season of accountability. also in a few moments i have one of the special reports that we do around here and it is on donald trump's tv confessions. but we begin with a key development in what might be the largest, and soon his threat to donald trump's actual liberty. the jack smith coup trial. jack smith in that case has