>> hi there. happy monday. 4:00 in new york. mark meadows woke up this morning to the grim new reality he's now in a legal vice. on the one side legal mistakes of his own making as detailed in new reporting in the new york times and on the other an ex-boss who is not even pretending at this point not to talk like a mob boss. quote, one morning last month in an atlanta federal courtroom mark meadows, former president trump's chief of staff was in the hot seat, and he put himself there. meadows lawyer made the surprise move of asking his client to testify in an effort to have the georgia election interference case against him moved to a federal court. a venue where his chances of acquittal or having the case thrown out may be better than in the state court where he's been charged. "the new york times" goes on to

report how meadows did himself grave legal harm in an exchange in which meadows appears to lie about his own role in the fake lectors plot. meadows hit a snag, a prosecutor asked whether he had, quote, any role in coordinating the bogus electors used in a last-ditch effort to keep trump in power after he lost the 2020 election. i did not, he replied. prosecutor then introduced into the record a december 2020 e-mail mr. meadows wrote to a trump campaign staff member. in it, mr. med to wrote this, quote, we just need to have someone coordinating the lectors for the states end quote. the exchange, which prosecutors will almost use against meadows at trial, underscore the high stakes gamble he took by testifying so far the gamble has not paid off. in early september u.s. district judge steve jones declined to move meadows' case to federal

court. meadows has appealed. as we said the swamp of alligators waiting to bite meadows head off, trump telling nbc news this about meadows, quote, well, i hope he's loyal to me. that hope-warning comes as, quote, trump has been warned by the federal judge in the case also stemming from his efforts to stay in office brought against him by the special counsel jack smith, to avoid saying anything that might affect the testimony of witnesses. his comment about meadows could attract new interest. it should come as no surprise that ex-president would want to keep meadows close. few people have a better fwraps into every aspect of the coup plot than the former chief of staff. here's cassidy hutchinson. >> leaning against the doorway saying, interesting conversation with rudy, mark.

sounds like we're going to go to the capitol. he didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, there's a lot going on, cas. but i don't know. things might get real, real bad be on january 6th. >> i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. mark responded to the effect of, you heard him, he thinks mike deserves it. i remember glancing, still sitting on his phone, and pat saying to him, something to the effect of, the rioters have gotten to the capitol we need to see the president now. and mark looked up at and said, he doesn't want to do anything, pat. >> miss hutchinson, did white house chief of staff mark meadows indicate he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6th? >> mr. meadows did seek that pardon, yes, ma'am.

>> questions today around the future of a co-defendant and essential witness to the trump coup plot where we begin with our favorite reporters and friends. former top justice official andrew weissmann back with us, director for counterintelligence at the fbi, frank is back, with us at the table new york times reporter katie benner. i want to start with the "times" analysis which gets at something that meadows did himself a lot of harm lying and contradicted by his words in that e-mail. that seems to have set in. do you think that plays into jack smith's negotiations with him if there are any over his testimony? >> yeah. so, you know, this is one where, you know, mark meadows might have thought that in order to carry his burden with respect to moving the case to federal court he needed to testify.

we know from jeff clark who has had his hearing today if you don't testify it's hard to carry your burden of going forward. that may have been a miscalculation because of reasons you and i have talked about, that "times" is reporting on, which is that he really got caught in what is hard to describe as anything other than a lie, where he said he had no role ha whatsoever in the fake elector scheme. you don't have to just rely on cassidy hutchinson, the state and government has his own words in e-mails and text messages. so here's the issue. it makes it very hard to now be a cooperator if you have committed perjury. that makes it harder for him to have that as a potential out. but it also means that it's easier to charge him. i remember as a prosecutor very

often being sort of on a razor's edge as to whether we had enough proof whether to charge somebody, and then we discovered that person lied about something in our case and that can make the difference between -- because you're trying to show intentionality. if you have somebody lying that goes a long way for a prosecutor to solve that issue, so i think he did himself just a whole world of hurt even if he's able to convince the 11th circuit they should remove the case from state court to federal court. he will face trial, but he is in my view lied to get himself there. >> and just andrew to go through what meadows would get jack smith if he were to cooperate fully, we don't know that he is or would or isn't actually, to be blunt, meadows is the connective tissue between the willard meeting and whether

trump knew anything going on there. meadows is the connective tissue between knowledge of violence. he was on the receiving ends of the briefing about the presidential protective detail was seeing from the white house to the capitol, the pence attacks and threats telling other senior white house officials, he doesn't want to do anything. the fake lectors, as recounted in his e-mails. coordinating efforts to create fake slates of lectors. rudy, at the white house, bringing him in for these meetings days ahead from january 6th planning to move trump down to the white house when cassidy says looks like we're going down there, rudy with mark meadows' knowledge is planning to move him down there. talk about how valuable he would be as a full cooperator. >> sure. well, there's no question that the government can make its case against donald trump without him. they've brought the case without

his being a cooperator and they can also get lower level people like a cassidy hutchinson, like a taveras in the florida case. this is, if you've got john gadi as a defendant and the underboss sam my decides it flip, that is mark meadows' relationship to donald trump. he is there for everything. mark meadows testified and tried make it seem like he was literally like a booking secretary, sort of arranged rooms and moved people around. no. he was the chief of staff to the president of the united states. you cannot get a more central, instrumental person to the functioning of the white house as you know, nicole, so i really do think this is like getting somebody's underboss, number two, the vice president, you

know, the president, the underboss, the boss, whatever analogy you want to use, you do not get anybody who is more inside than a mark meadows. >> so, frank, i have know i am at post gasp when anybody makes a mob reference. whenever you or andrew or pete compared any aspect to this as a mob. i think this is a bad thing, but i now kind of nod along like yeah. anyway, i want to read you from jack smith's request for the gag order a story that broke on friday. it says this, quote, steadily since indictment, the defendant has publicly bolstered certain perspective witnesses in this case and attacking others in an effort to influence the public and jury pool impression of potential witnesses outside the courtroom. his targeting of specific witnesses seeks to boll ter or impeach witnesses, not before this court, but instead in the court of public opinion before that trial begins.

clearly the ex-president had squel, describing trump as near death when he had covid. timing wise on the timing, with meadows' cooperation and lack of cooperation with the january 6th select committee, so there is, again, a call and reaction from meadows when trump speaks. what do you make of his comments about meadows, quote, i hope he's loyal? >> we've seen the loyalty comments before in the form of former fbi director jim comey who was suddenly called to a one on one dinner at the white house with trump, didn't know it was a one-on-one dinner and asked for loyalty to trump, and he never truly responded to trump and led to his demise as fbi director not to mention he was leading the russia investigation and now here it is again, and yes, we can absolutely compare this to

both an organize the crime group and a cult. that is both are incredibly hard to get out of. it tears people up as they try to determine their own fate and realize they have to choose between loyalty based on fear, retribution, physical harm, ostracized from the group, or some positive motivation, a carrot that says maybe if i hang in with this guy, i'm going to get some kind of personal benefit. i'll get a pardon if he wins. i'll get some kind of role in the next administration. if he wins. a big if. if you're the fbi agent or prosecutor trying to flip him, it is incredibly difficult to do. especially while every day former president trump is indeed

inciting potential violence where he intends to or not i don't think he cares. we know from a chicago university of chicago, over 12 million americans support the idea of the use of force to bring back trump into office. that's got to also include in that universe violence against witnesses. violence against people like mark meadows. all of this going thu his head, all of it thought through by prosecutors and agents as they try to figure out the best way to get him to flip. >> katie, i think about, and i think you did the earliest body of reporting when senate judiciary was investigating the role of the doj officials during the attempted coup, and its testimony from mr. rosen and donahue. there's no evidence in any of the notes they turned over that meadows is ever a moderating force on trump. he's an enthusiastic supporter of overturning the results in georgia. he does nothing as violence is breaking out, the dramatic

moment in the congressional investigation where donahue goes down there. there's a split between the doj officials and meadows and trump on that day. can you talk about what jack smith likely already knows from them about meadows' role? >> i think what he knows is what we've referred in other publications that he was trying to play all sides in some ways. he was naig a lot of information. in fact, you could say he was kind of a traffic cop for all sorts of messages coming in, from people who wanted to overturn the election or justice department officials saying there is insane. there was no election fraud at the level that would necessitate any of this activity. he took in all of the information and then he passed it on to his boss. only he knows what his boss said back. only he knows whether or not donald trump said absolutely i know that i lost. that is something that mark meadows is aware of. the justice department officials told jack smith he was taking in

information and wasn't pushing back as far as we can see and never helped our cause when we said that what was happening was wrong. i don't know for how long mark meadows can sort of play that role of pretending that he was completely neutral at all times. it's going to be interesting to see. it's like an avatar for the republican party how long can people stay quiet and go along and curry favor with donald trump and where will it get them. >> andrew, when you assess the lawyering under way, we've always held george up in a different class, what do you make of what appears to be a mistake or gamble that didn't work out that his client lies in court and i mean, looks like it takes about 60 seconds for the fani willis prosecutors to say really, i have it right here. seems like a "law and order"

court scene, lies in court and is caught instantly. >> yeah. so, you know, i think what was going on is he essentially was sort of doubling down on two lies because what he was saying was, oh, it wasn't a fake elector scheme. it was a contingent lector scheme. he knew enough to try to say oh, the lectors were only going to be there in case a state court said that trump had won. that, of course, was not the scheme. the scheme was to use the fake lectors to actually pressure congress, pressure mike pence to overturn the votes regardless of what a state court had found or not found. and so he remembered to say that part, but then he proceeded to say i didn't have any role in it and you could imagine the defense lawyer might have prepped him a lot and then you it, one of the thing you have to know who is your client? are they going to be on the

stand and a good witness. he, obviously, was not. i think the main issue i see is he has really hurt himself in terms of if he's going to try to cooperate now with jack smith. jack smith is going to be saying, you know, you're going to have to plead to so much more. in other words, mark meadows was saying immunize me and i will be a witness, you cannot commit perjury recently and hope to get that deal, nor do i think that's how jack smith is built. so i do think the lawyering is probably a backfire or misfire, but just to keep our eye on the ball that is a decision that mark meadows made to give the testimony that he gave. that's where the sort of primary responsibility is, you know, because nobody forced him to say those things. no one forced him to take the

stand. and to swear to tell the truth in court. so what happens at this point is something that's going to be as a result of his choices. my word this is somebody who is a long-time leader in congress, he was the chief of staff to the leader of the free world, these are liss decisions. he's a grown up. so what comes from this will be a result of his own actions, not anyone else's. >> i think, frank, what's interesting about the meadows' conversation it's always shielded in the mystique he has a real lawyer he's going to be fine. i think maybe we overplayed that hand, and he may be in, i know it's not a legal term, deep do-do. >> he does have a respected lawyer and i think the lesson here, we'll see where this goes, but the lesson is you can't out lawyer crime. i mean, it's -- you know, trying to say you're acting in your

official capacity, for example, when you're committing crimes that have to do with the campaign is laughable. he's got the best argument more than anyone i think on this attempt to go to federal court, but it's not going to win. it would be a shocker to win. yeah. i kind of empathize with his attorney. this is the card that we were dealt an he, for all we know, his lawyer might be counseling mark meadows to cooperate and mark as we said earlier is thinking i'm in this, i'm going to against the organized crime group, how do i survive? should i hang in for a pardon. i think time is on the side of jack smith in that over time, it's been my experience, as prison becomes more and more a possibility, particularly in the state of georgia, not pleasant, been there, done that, in terms of my work there in the fbi, yeah, he might go i'm a not going down for this guy.

it's a tough long road. >> why do you think trump didn't give meadows a pardon? >> i don't know. i feel like trump has always thought mark meadows would be exceedingly loyal to him. there's always that chorus of people that have gone down for him and they have. we saw it with trumts cooperation. he's betting on mark meadows not flipping and caving. meadows is in some way, if you track his career, he's uniquely good at figuring out where the power center is going to be, tracking it and seizing power for himself and becoming leader in that the party. whether or not he's going to follow trump down that road will say a lot about whether or not republicans like him believe trump will continue to have that kind of power, that could get him out of hot water. >> the road might take him to federal prison. frank, thank you for starting us off on this.

aty and andrew stick around. lawyers for trump's would-be attorney clark trying to move his case out of fulton county. the official working in the natural resource division have with elections and voter fraud. katie was inside the courtroom to explain how clark's team tried to sell that. the president's son hunter biden fighting back against his legal troubles with the lawsuit against the irs. it's an escalate from his team after last week's indictment on gun related charges. the ukrainian president will be in the united states this week as he continues to warn all of us about the dangers of an emboldened vladimir putin at a time when the russian leader is embraced by donald trump and much of the republican party. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. a. . my customer was enjoying her new car,

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discussing what he planned on doing, i said, good [ bleep ] sorry, deal. congratulations. you committed your first act as attorney general would be a felony. you're clearly the right candidate for this job. i thought the proposal was nuts. he's a guyed at a certain point best i can tell the only thing you know about environmental and elections challenges is they both start with "e" and based on your answers i'm not sure you even know that. >> that was former white house

lawyer eric herschmann, in terms of the potty mouth in the hearings recounting his experience in donald trump's attempted coup jeffrey clark. along with the ex-president, clark devised ways to use the doej doj on joe biden's win and donald trump installed clark as acting attorney general over the objection of bosses at doj. clark was charged alongside the ex-president and 17 other co-defendants in fulton county, georgia, for their work as part of a criminal enterprise to overturn joe biden's victory in georgia and attorneys for clark asked a federal judge for his case to be removed to federal court arguing at the time he was carrying out the coup plot he was acting in an official capacity as the country's assistant attorney general. okay. let's bring in msnbc host and legal analyst katie fang, in

atlanta for us, who was in the courtroom. tell me what jeffrey clark's team argued and how it seemed to go. >> well, i'm glad you asked me to tell you what his team argued. it wasn't jeffrey clark. no oil spills here today. according to eric herschmann there would not be a jeff clark around. there's where the rubber meets the road. with jeff clark being missing today his defense was going to fail. at the beginning of the hearing, there is, obviously, the missing jeffrey clark and the state brings up the fact that there's been no waiver filed to which his attorney says, quote, judge i didn't realize i had to file one. thereby sets the tone for what happens today during the alleged evidentiary hearing. all kidding aside, nicole, you know, the burden is on the defense to be able to convince the court to remove the case from state court to federal court. all we heard was argument, not evidence by any stretch of the

imagination, from the lawyer for jeff clark. now the state of georgia was prepared. they called to testify today jody hunt, if his name sounds familiar, he was counsel for cassidy hutchinson when she testified before the january 6th select committee and jody hunt was an assistant attorney general in the civil division the same position that jeff clark held and it was important testimony because under oath jody hunt explained to the courts that the only person in the department of justice who has the ability to have the authority to have people do stuff that jeff clark did, would be the attorney general himself. we know for the record that jeff rosen, the acting attorney general and the deputy attorney general at the time richard donohue, made it clear to jeff clark there was zero evidence of widespread fraud. and so that letter that jeff clark prepared that he was demanding that rosen and donahue sign to send to the state of georgia ordering them to basically hold a spshl assembly

to have the fake lectors get together and vote in a new certificate of lectors that was never approved and we know there was going to be a wholesale resignation of lawyers at the department of justice if donald trump was to force that through. it was important because jeffrey clark is saying, nicole, everything i did, i did as a federal officer, put importantly saying donald trump, quote, ratified my conduct. the law allowed donald trump to put this in my lane and because that was in my happen and because it was what donald trump wanted me to do, that's what i did. the judge in this case, you could look, you know, from the bench, he was expressing maybe skepticism about that argument and at the end of the day the state of georgia making it clear in the absence of any evidence they didn't carry their burden today. >> andrew weigh in on that defense that jeffrey clark said wasn't my idea. i was doing what trump told me to do.

>> so yeah. i have a question for katie on that because it's my understanding that i know she was there, was that one of the things that clark's lawyer said could be highly prejudicial to donald trump. jeff clark drafted a letter that was fraudulent, that he was told not to do by his two bosses, the acting attorney general and acting deputy attorney general and that letter said that not only was doj investigating fraud, but it had found fraud, and he wanted to send that as an effort to help undermine the election in various states. and as i understand it his lawyer may have told the judge that jech clark only was writing and doing that at the direction of the then president of the united states donald trump.

i don't know if that reporting is accurate, but that seems highly incriminating. i don't think it helps jeff clark with his removal petition but it certainly suggests that jeff clark was acting at the direction of donald trump in drafting this fraudulent letter. >> yeah. if you don't mind i will answer that. it was clearly argument that was being made but in the absence of jeffrey clark the only thing you can rely upon is his lawyer, and he made it clear because jeffrey clark was acting pretty much outside of his lane of his ability to do stuff the fact that donald trump ratified his conduct and said it was okay it made it okay to do what they were doing. they acted in concert. there was no sunlight between the two of them and that was made clear today. it's notable the defense lawyer here in georgia steve sadow was sitting in the courtroom from the gallery the lawyer for

donald trump listening to this unravel and we're watching it unravel in real time. >> it's interesting because i mean, he doesn't work for trump. he works for these two gentlemen who testified under oath they told him not to send the letter. let me show you rosen and donahue. do we have that, control room? so here's what rosen says. testifies, quote, i told mr. clark i thought he was making a colossal error in judgment but hoped to persuade him to be rationale and understand we understood there's not a factual basis for the fraud assertions that have been made. my hopes were disappointed in clark that continued to express the view of fraud even though he had not been a participant and don know shoo hue testifies i made the point that jeff clark is not competent to serve as the attorney general and pat

cipollone weighed in i remember saying ta letter that this guy wants to send that letter is a murder-suicide pact and going to damage everyone who touches it. we should have nothing to do with that letter. i don't want to see the letter. there's testimony he's told there's no basis for fraud, that the department, for better or worse, went in and investigated the craziest allegations of fraud and found none. the department officials are in a unique position to know it's a lie and he's warned not to send the letter. >> i don't think this is going to necessarily help jeffrey clark in court, but there is a chance, you know, when i spoke to people for some of the stories i wrote about him, he may have been a true believer there was fraud that nobody knew about and we saw -- >> mystery fraud that the department couldn't find and rudy couldn't find. >> absolutely. >> 61 judges couldn't find. >> absolutely. he even moved to try to meet with intelligence officials on his own and when donohue and rosen found out they exploded

and were furious. he was trying to set up meetings with intel officials to get to the bottom of something he thought nobody else knew. i don't know if that's going to help him in court but he could have been a true believer which would help explain why he took extraordinary actions he did. why he and jeff rosen, they've worked together in the bush administration, why he defied him and didn't trust him. it was an extraordinary moment. >> i mean, andrew, wiseman believing the earth is flat doesn't make it flat when on trial in a court law. this is eastman's defense. i'm still looking for the fraud and four more inches in my height but i'm sure at this point in my life i'm not going to find it. this is my height. is the true believer thing a thing? >>, so i can't believe i'm doing this going to quote pat cipollone to the january 6th committee, at some point you have to put up and say what facts are.

so, you know, you might want to believe something is true, but, you know, there's a difference between that and evidence. even rudy giuliani said we only have theories. we don't have evidence to i think it was rusty bowers. the other thing that for jeff clark and i don't think this is going to -- i don't think that this argument that he might have been a true believer will prevent him from being charged. i do think that of all the people after trump, the department of justice is going to have such a keen interest in holding somebody like jeff clark to account given what he did at the department. remember, one of the things that he did allegedly is lied to the acting attorney general and to the deputy attorney general. that is a crime. making an intentional false statement to them. so even if he truly believed that the election was stolen, but see, there is no evidence, so i think he'll be charged with

that, but he also lied to them and whether you believe the election was stolen or not, it is still a crime to lie. very much in the way that the former president keeps on saying i could keep all the documents, it doesn't matter, i could declassify in my head, all of that, even if you believed that, when he got a subpoena he had to turn the documents over. it's similar in that you don't get to lie and not comply with a subpoena. those of what the former president called process crimes are things that have been charged against donald trump and they can be and i suspect they will be charged with respect to jeff clark. >> two brilliant katies, thank you for spending time with us. there's breaking news to tell you about on the classified documents case. we'll tell you about it on the other side. it on the other side [it's the final game, folks. this one wins the series.]

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told investigators that more than once she received requests for taskings from trump written on the back of note cards and recognized those notecards as sensitive white house materials with visible classification markings used to brief trump while in office about phone calls with foreign leaders or other international related matters. continuing from abc's reporting the note cards with classification markings were at trump's mar-a-lago estate when fbi agents searched the property on august 8th, 2022, but the materials were not taken by the fbi according to sources familiar with ha molly michael told investigators. when michael who was not present for the search returned to mar-a-lago the next day to clean up her office space, she found the documents underneath a drawer organizer and helped transfer them to the fbi that same day. that source telling abc news. the source says michael told federal investigators that last

year she grew increasingly concerned with how trump handled requests from the national archives for the return of government documents kept in boxes at mar-a-lago and she felt that trump's claims about it at the time the would be easy to disprove according to sources. it is a remarkable -- let me read you trump's response here to be fair to them. quote, a trump spokesperson said that what abc news was told through what the spokesperson called, quote, illegal leaks, lacks, quote, proper context and relevant information. andrew weissmann, this is the case that you and marry m mccord and on the intelligence side, john brennan, think represents a grave threat to u.s. national security and thinks is one so clear in the facts and the criminality it's pretty open and

shut. this seems like this is another reason this is the case. >> absolutely. we didn't need this piece of proof, but this is an aide to donald trump who is saying she knows firsthand that donald trump knew that he had classified information that he should not have had at mar-a-lago. that she told him that his claims to the government that he had returned everything would be, quote, easily disproven, unquote and when donald trump learns she was going to be spoken with by the investigators, she said that donald trump told her you don't know anything about the boxes. so you have not only a firsthand witness to the illegal retention

of the national defense information, but you have yet another instance of alleged obstruction of justice which is lying to investigators. i would point out this would make the third instance of obstruction because two are already charged in the indictment and this is somebody who, again, could be just yet another i will say not even piece of a puzzle because the puzzle has been complete for so long, this is just an overwhelming rock crish of a case if this reporting is accurate from miss michael. it certainly has the ring of truth but, obviously, we will wait and see what she has to say at trial and she will be subject to cross-examination like every witness in the case. >> it's an interesting piece of

reporting that abc includes the observations. quote, as abc news has reported michael is believed to be the person identified in special counsel jack smith's indictment as trump employee two described in the indictment as someone who handled many of trump's white house government boxes at mar-a-lago and who provided trump with photos of the boxes that were included in the indictment. then this line, this is also from abc news, quote, sources said after trump heard the fbi wanted to interview molly michael last year, trump allegedly told her, quote, you don't know anything about the boxes. there's only one way to take that knowing that she's the one who handled the boxes for him according to abc's reporting and sent him the photos that ended up in the indictment. what do you make both of this new piece, that puzzle is complete but sort of like a

spare piece, as well as what we're learning about how trump treated her? >> i mean, look that sounds, you know, very obstruction-y. you don't need to be a former federal prosecutor to know when you have someone in such a position of power like a former president saying to an aide, you don't know anything about the boxes, that type of thing is easy to get your head around. you don't have to understand the presidential records act, you don't have to understand the sensitivities of classified informationp you have to understand how investigations work and how there's an assumption in this country that when investigators ask you questions, you're going to provide them with truthful testimony. you don't need a law degree to figure that out and understand that. i think that speaks to part of the strengths of the documents case, where the documents case

is something that is a lot about obstruction and pretty easy for people to get. the whole process of how documents are classified and used at trial is you confusing, but the way to understand someone didn't give back something they were supposed to and on top of that false statements made about that, those are easy concepts to get your head around. it's not braided together with presidential powers. it's just sort of someone trying to throw sand in the gears of an investigation. >> i mean, andrew, i want to ask you and continue to read from this. to mike's point, this -- if you have a principal complying with a subpoena from the fbi and find something underneath your desk organizers that wasn't turned over. you get it to the lawyer and fbi. the fact that women like cassidy hutchinson had to after having a lawyer that a made her lie to

the 1-6 committee and then find a new lawyer and then proceed to give truthful testimony, to have someone, i believe molly michael worked for trump until this investigation heated up, until rather recently, she certainly went with him in the post-presidency, to have these individuals who have to take these extraordinary risks to their reputation, their career, their career opportunities, it really says more about trump and the commitment to obstruct the fbi's efforts to regain control of classified material. >> absolutely. you have these people who you can say they should have known better, but you do see with miss michael when push came to shove and she knew there were these representations made by donald trump which she says in this recording she knew was false, i think one of the more remarkable things in addition to what mike says about the simplicity of

this, is her saying there would be nobody that would know better what was in the boxes than donald trump because he was so possessive of them. that's a devastating statement. to your point about not turning stuff over, it is worth noting this kind of witness goes a long way in the court of public opinion when thinking about what mike pence did when he found classified material that shouldn't have been in his possession, when joe biden found material, although that investigation is not over, it remains to wait actually what the findings are, but there's no evidence they took these kinds of actions. what you would normally do when innocently holding these and inadvertently taken them is you would have had a completely different conversation and you

would have said oh, my god, we need to call them immediately and get these back and call them and find out what's the best way to get them back because if you're the president of the united states you know how important these are to the country's national security. instead, it's exactly the opposite. i would like to engage in a crime and keep these and lie for me, which is exactly the kind of thing that's already alleged in the indictment he said to his lawyers he wanted them to lie for him and they refused. so this is definitely yet another very strong piece of evidence if the reporting is accurate in a case that was already very strong and i should say, people concerned about the case in florida, i mean, you have to give some credit to people, you know, a jury that will have common sense. this is just such an overwhelming case. it is really impossible to think

that the president when he is tried will be acquitted of these charges. >> mike, it seems to provide some more evidence ability what they had on walt nauta. sounds from the abc reporting, i'm going to read it again some of this was captured on the surveillance let me read from the story. or from michael's testimony. "speaking to federal investigators, michael recounted how by late 2021 as many as 90 boxes of materials from trump's time as president were moved into a basement storage room at mar-a-lago and how as pressure from the national archives mounted she and trump aide walt nauta would bring the boxes to trump's residence for him to review. trump eventually agreed to turn over 15 boxes which michael told investigators she viewed as a positive sign. but then according to what she told investigators around the same time that the national archives found nearly 200 classified documents in the 15 boxes and referred the matter to the fbi trump began to seem more

reluctant to cooperate with the agency and he asked michael to help spread the message that no more boxes existed, sources said she recounted." so that feels like an important piece of evidence that the government may have ascertained and that may have bolstered their -- as you're all saying, their obstruction case against trump. >> i was just thinking as i was listening to that, listening to andrew, there are instances in previous major federal investigations where obstruction happened and the government had to go in and prosecute those cases. i think in most instances, in most investigations lawyers and those under investigation try and do the right thing. but you know, sometimes things go wrong and obstruction cases are brought. it just seems like in the documents investigation every time there was like a decision whether to do the legal thing or not they just decided not to do

the legal thing. and that left an extraordinary amount of evidence in all different forms, whether it's in surveillance footage, whether it came in testimony, whether it came in the text messages that we saw. it's just like at every turn this thing went in the wrong direction. and that's just sort of dumfounding. >> it does also, though, i think cement the narrative, right? i mean, again asked to say it isn't so about "the new york times" reporting. pardons are dangled in front of people, adding criminality to criminal acts and creating more obstructive acts. mike schmidt and andrew weissmann, the story broke while we were on the air. thank you both for talking us through it and spending some time with us. still ahead for us a development today in the matters swirling around hunter biden. his legal team filed a lawsuit of their own this morning with some pretty major accusations aimed at the irs and the

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we've got a pretty clear indication this afternoon that hunter biden and his legal team do not intend on taking republican-led congressional inquiries laying down. the president's son along with his attorneys are now suing the irs. they contend the agency's investigators violated privacy rights by publicly disclosing

details about the younger biden's taxes along with the investigation into his conduct. at the heart of the dispute is whether the public disclosures in question were covered by whistleblower protections. white house republicans insist yes, they were. congressional republicans, sorry, insist that they were related to what they maintain was government corruption. hunter biden and his team argued this, that irs agents made other disclosures in more than 20 interviews and public statements. from the lawsuit filed today, "mr. biden is the son of the president of the united states. he has all the same responsibilities as any other american citizen and the irs can and should make certain that he abides by those responsibilities. similarly, mr. biden has no fewer or lesser rights than any other american citizen and no government agency or government agent has free rein to violate his rights simply because of who he is. yet the irs and its agents have

conducted themselves under a presumption that the rights that apply to every other american citizen do not apply to mr. biden. we will follow that story closely. but up next for us, how donald trump and the gop's embrace of vladimir putin is being received and responded to by the ukrainian president as he prepares to arrive here in the united states. much more news after a quick break. don't go anywhere. quick break. don't go anywhere.

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yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. the russians have suffered grievous losses without resorting to nuclear weapons, and i wonder if you believe that the threat of nuclear war is now behind us. >> translator: i think he's going to continue threatening. he's waiting for the united states to become less stable. he thinks that's going to happen

during the u.s. election. he'll be looking for instability in europe and the united states of america. he will use the risk of using nuclear weapons to fuel that instability. he will keep on threatening. hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. a grim warning there from ukraine's president zelenskyy when accused war criminal russian president putin's strategy to simply wait it out, wait for more political instability here in the u.s. as he looks to advance his own interest while being aided in the public information and propaganda space by a high-profile snub from the top republican in the house, kevin "sorry i gave away my speakership to matt gaetz and marjorie taylor greene" mccarthy. politico reports that mccarthy and zelenskyy will not have a one-on-one meeting when the ukrainian president comes to washington, d.c. this week. some reporting on why that is. politico reports this, quote,

the notion of moving any ukraine aid has appeared on the litany of grievances the hard right is using to threaten mccarthy's speakership. and even marjorie taylor greene, one of mccarthy's top allies on the right, told playbook recently that no amount of border funding could compensate for another injection of u.s. taxpayer money overseas and calling the battle against russia's invasion, quote, a war that should be over. mccarthy this afternoon confirmed that when he does see president zelenskyy on thursday it will be in a group setting, a bipartisan group, that the gop position on aid for a u.s. ally in a hot war with russia is being driven by marjorie taylor greene is only the second most outrageous part of this story. here's zelenskyy on the stakes of withdrawing u.s. support. >> translator: i just think they're not supporting only ukraine alone. if ukraine falls, putin will surely go further.

what will the united states of america do when putin reaches the baltic states, when he reaches the polish border? he will. this is a lot of money. we have a lot of gratitude. what else must ukraine do for everyone to measure our huge gratitude? we are dying in this war. look, if ukraine falls, what will happen in ten years? just think about it. if the russians reach poland, what's next? a third world war? >> but not even the very real threat of a third world war could stop the gop front-runner donald trump from gushing when he heard about vladimir putin's warm fuzzies for him. trump telling nbc news this, quote, well, i like that he said that because that means what i'm saying is right. republican party leaders in the u.s. bending to putin as united states ally and democratic leader of ukraine president

zelenskyy prepares to make a personal appeal before the united nations general assembly here in new york tomorrow for our continued support is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. retired four-star army sxwren msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrey joins us. join pleg at the table democratic congressman eric swalwell of california is here. and writer at large for the bulwark and msnbc political analyst tim miller is here. congressman, i start with you. it's embarrassing, right? it's not just the marjorie taylor greene keeping kevin mccarthy from pledging ongoing support for an ally in the region. it's at the same time trump playing coochie coochie coo with putin over his compliments in an interview. when you see zelenskyy, what do you say about that? >> i'm sorry. i'm sorry that the person -- -- the person that's second in line to the presidency has reduced himself to such a weak pathetic position. we're talking about a potential

world war 3, and the line for freedom is in ukraine and the tip of the spear is what we're doing to help ukraine. so mccarthy leads a putin bloc in congress and donald trump, by the way, when he says i'll end this conflict within 24 hours, vladimir putin hears two things. one, i should stay in this conflict until, you know, at least the next presidential election. he's got the men and the ability to just grind it out. and so there will be more, you know, dead children because putin's going to stay in. and two, well, i know how to get donald trump elected because i helped him do it last time. if kevin mccarthy and his conference are so hellbent on going after china, which really does unite the congress, the best way to keep china out of taiwan is to show strength in ukraine. if we pull out of ukraine, not only could we see further losses in europe, xi and china would certainly see a green light to invade taiwan, and then that's a real world war 3 scenario.

>> so i guess my question is if we know what putin is willing to do to help a reality tv star win in '16 because he feared a hillary clinton presidency and we know how willing trump was to publicly embrace putin, russia, if you're listening. we also know that this time the stakes are so much higher for each of them. trump is running to stay out of jail, and put zinn running to prevail in a hot war against america's allies. do you worry about a failure of imagination to protect the country against what those two will do together? >> we were too late to call out the disinformation, the hacking, the leaking, the dumping campaign that putin led in 2016. and i faulted, you know, the obama administration in many ways for holding back because they heard donald trump say the election was going to be rigged and they felt like if they called russia out it would validate trump's concerns about a rigged election. we can't do that. we need to call out russia every time we see it and we also need to make sure that the private sector, social media companies

are also called out if their platforms are being used to launder russian disinformation to get a preferred candidate in the presidential election. >> are those conversations ongoing? >> yes. certainly. i have expressed that on the homeland security committee and the judiciary committee. and also all of us, your viewers have a role to play and the expectation is that they can show us. i said to social media companies that your platforms cannot again be used for foreign interference. >> let me just ask you and then i want to bring in barry and tim. when you say that on the homeland security and judiciary committee, do the republicans nod and say yeah, we better? what do they say? >> they want the disinformation. they're inviting the disinformation because they don't want, for example, homeland security or any agency to go to a platform and say it's being used for misinformation. they helped file lawsuits to stop that. now, thankfully, you know, those lawsuits are not working. but they're not allies here. and i'll tell you what, if you're not condemning a foreign interference campaign on our platforms, then you're pro

putin. it's as easy as that. >> general mccaffrey, i want to ask you, i mean, there's this moment in the republican primary debate that's probably as seared in tim miller's mind as mine when lindsey graham goes to the debate stage and he apologizes to the families, military families who've served the country, i think it's in the wake of trump's muslim ban, and he says -- basically acknowledges that it's an affront to all the people who fought and died to protect the country. and now of course he's his part-time caddie, so that didn't mean much. but i feel like an apology along those lines is owed to president zelenskyy as he very passionately said during the "60 minutes" interview what else do you need us to do? we are sending line after line after line after line to the front lines and dying to protect our country. but it isn't just ukraine against russia. it's democracy against autocracy. and it's not too much to ask that we help fund them and help

keep their country afloat and their economy functioning. what do you say when the republican primary for the presidential election is literally, you know, cooing at vladimir putin's compliment of him, vladimir putin lined up behind trump is calling the prosecution's persecution, and kevin mccarthy snubbing zelenskyy who i'm sure understood the importance of a one-on-one with the house leader. >> well, it's the most toxic political environment we've seen since the civil war. it's hard pressed for me to understand it. where is the republican party that was pro u.s. armed forces, that was internationalist in scope, that understood the value of nato, the primary defensive alliance we take part in. so here we have a request for $24 billion additional aid in front of congress right now with

the speaker of the house shunning zelenskyy in a one-on-one visit and much of his caucus saying they're not going to fund it and they're going to shut down the government at the end of september. it's just impossible to understand this. never mind trump, this former president, saying in public how much he admires and welcomes the support of mr. putin, who is a crass murderer who conducted a criminal, failed invasion of ukraine. our security is at stake. so the biden team, you know, secretary of defense lloyd austin, secretary of state tony blinken, have managed to pull together nato, the european union, the 50 nations of the contact group to support ukraine, but the republicans in the house are balking against this. it's unbelievable to me. it's a shameful situation. >> tim, i've made a pledge to abandon nostalgia but i do have to quote mccain on -- i think he called him a two-bit thug,

murderer, dictator. and i only point that out because i'm sure that's what mcconnell and mccarthy and all the republicans who aren't marjorie taylor greene and the one playing footsie in the movie theater actually think about putin. but i think what we've learned from the romney book and the romney reporting is that for some reason none of them will speak the truth. they see putin the way you and i do. they just don't exist in a world where they can articulate the truth. and i think that is as grave of a risk to ukraine as putin. >> maybe not as grave but it's certainly one of the gravest risks to ukraine right now, is the republican party. and we don't have to do nostalgia or compliment the republican party of the auts or 2010s to say it would be kind of crazy to go back to then, john mccain's republican party and say we will be in a moment where russia will invade ukraine and the biggest weak link in the entire world, in the entire western world in determining whether or not we would support ukraine is not anybody in

europe -- remember we used to make fun of france and the chicken hawks or whatever. no, it's the republican party in america is the biggest weak link in the whole western world as far as general mccaffrey was just saying. the alliance to stop vladimir putin. i think to congressman swalwell's point, it is actively helping vladimir putin right now to look at the republican primary and say well, donald trump is the leader for sure but even look, second, third place, vivek, ron desantis, like 80% of the republican primary now is with somebody that is basically saying in one way or the other we'll coddle putin, we'll dial back on the help of zelenskyy. so why wouldn't russia hold the line for an extra year and see what happens, an extra 15 months? who knows? >> well, not just watch but help, right? >> yeah, exactly. >> i wonder. you're one of your party's apex communicators. how do you message that? >> again, that they're in a putin bloc and you're either helping america or you're helping vladimir putin.

you're either for democracy or you're for fascism. and just speak plainly about why we have to be in this fight. but i also cannot emphasize enough, all i hear is anti-china rhetoric. and we have good reason to go after them for their trade practices, for their intellectual property theft, their steel dumping, their currency manipulation. their bad actors, their human rights violations. but if you want to help china, pull us out of ukraine. and i think that's how you talk to republicans. it will be a hell of a lot cheaper to stop china -- >> well, you've got to talk to their voters, right? because i understand what you're saying but i think people are very, very smart but it does have to instantly connect -- what you're arguing is it's the height of hypocrisy to say we're worried about this threat over here, not that one over there. your point is that if you talk to people in taiwan they're gravely concerned about how the u.s. conducts itself in ukraine. >> yes. and today i'm in town, you know, taking meetings around the u.n. general assembly. i met with the taiwanese

delegation. and they very much are in support of what we are doing to help ukraine because we recognize every day that we help ukraine we deter xi and we help taiwan get ready for that potential invasion. again -- >> strength begets strength. >> strength begets strength. and the good news here is we know how to stitch together global alliances. the good news here is these leaders, quote unquote leaders, mccarthy and the gang, were not in charge in the 1940s when we needed, you know, to call the country together. the bad news is they're in charge of too much right now. and too much is at stake. >> it's so phony, by the way. you can just come out and say this. who would believe that these guys would stand up for taiwan? they can do the tough on china rhetoric now, but look at what -- like we are seeing what they would do in taiwan with ukraine right now. >> they're flinching right now. why would you not flinch there? >> general mccaffrey, what is the view from inside the pentagon where republicans won't even let military promotions go

forward? >> well, i wouldn't want to speak for mark milley, the chairman of jcs or secretary austin, but i do believe we're facing sort of an unprecedented lack of support in congress of the defense of the united states. and by the way, in the background a lot of it is just reflecting trump's rhetoric in which he threatened to unilaterally withdraw from the defensive alliance with south korea, in which he threatened to charge japan for the u.s. naval and air power presence on the japanese islands, in which he threatened to unilaterally walk away from nato. so we're on the verge of dismantling those institutions that have kept the peace largely since world war ii. it is hard to understand what's going on. but i think congressional toxicity just reflects trump in the background. i think that's where we are. tubarville blocking the armed

forces promotion list is astonishing. we're up to 300 of the flag officers now that can't assume office. we won't have a chairman of the jcs confirmed. we don't have a com man of the marine corps confirmed. the chief of naval operations. the chief of staff of the army. he's unilaterally applying political extortion on the armed forces instead of arguing it out in congress. >> it's an unbelievable state of affairs. i feel like a lot of people are owed apologies. general barry mccaffrey, thank you very much for starting us off this hour. congressman swalwell and tim miller, stick around a little bit longer with us. when we come back, the dangerous spread of election denialism and election deniers, they're everywhere. new report finds that in fully 1/3 of the states election deniers hold high office. they're in charge of lots of stuff. and they're wielding their power to weaken our democracy. that's ahead. plus, a brand new report about the skyrocketing cost of security lawmakers are paying to

stay safe since the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. we'll ask the congressman about that. and later in the broadcast as president joe biden secured the freedom of five americans who were imprisoned in iran, iranian-american activists and journalist massey alinejad makes a stunning revelation for the first time on capitol hill. she'll be our guest later in the hour. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. " continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. oh, that's nice... oh!! searchable, verified reviews. that's better than the ham, and i've never said that. booking.com booking.yeah [it's the final game, folks. this one wins the series.] struck out with the cheap seats? important things aren't worth compromising. at farmers, we offer both quality insurance and great savings. (crowd cheers) here, take mine. (farmers mnemonic)

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they went forward with this unlawful vote.

this is a really troubling sign from our senate that they are fully on board with the types of attacks on our elections that we've been seeing since donald trump came on the scene. >> that was wisconsin attorney general josh kaul on this program on friday telling us about the unlawful effort by the legislature in his state to remove their non-partisan election chief from office. all in service of the disgraced ex-president and his big lie. and it is not just happening there. a new report by states united democracy center finds that inside state legislatures all across our country election deniers are using their power to weaken free and fair elections. quote, in all 23 election deniers currently hold a statewide office with election oversight power in 17 states." they include seven governors, five secretaries of state and 11 attorneys general. the report details the critical steps these election deny err whys have taken. quote, nine states have pulled

out of the electronic registration information center, a partnership that helps make sure voter rolls are accurate. election deniers have moved to restrict donations to support election funding, hampering election officers that are already dealing with an onslaught of threats and conspiracy theories. election deniers who hold office are also creating or expanding special units to prosecute election crimes including voter fraud, which is practically non-existent. it is about scaring voters and keeping election lies alive. joining our conversation, former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the u.s. department of justice mary mccord is back. and award-winning author and professor of african american studies at princeton university, eddie glaude is here. congressman eric swalwell and tim are still with us. mary mccord, this feels like one of the most dangerous big lie stories i've covered on this show. tell me your reaction to this report.

>> i think it was really sort of a red flag to say all those things we were worried about in 2020 and we were worried about before the midterms in '22 when so many election deniers were running for office, don't feel like it's over because even though many of those election deniers, particularly in the swing states, lost those elections the threat did not dissipate and we already had election deniers in office in many states, as indicated by the map you just showed. we also have a number of them in congress as i'm sure congress member swalwell can speak to. but i think the other thing that's so dangerous about this is election denialism is really a core piece, the core piece of the fraud narrative that has driven violence many, many places across this country and most, you know, obviously the january 6th insurrection, the attack on the capitol. without election denialism, without lies about election

fraud and a rigged election, without the lies suggesting that donald trump actually won that election there would not have been an insurrection. so election denialism even though 2020 is over, we have 2024 already just right in front of us and an expansion rather than a retraction of election denialism at least in some quarters. so i think the narrative there is what we need to worry about because that narrative provides the justification for people to engage in acts of political violence. and that's where we need to be very, very concerned. >> so eddie, the threat of political violence and domestic violent extremism is very real. and voter suppression has already happened. past tense. the big lie fueled 400 and i think 78 voter suppression laws in 48 states being introduced. several dozen have been passed and signed into law. my viewers don't need to hear

this, but it's important to always say there was no fraud. trump couldn't find any. bill barr couldn't find any. rudy couldn't find any. full stop. and they went on trying to pass hundreds of voter suppression laws masqueraing as election integrity laws. the damage is so, so, so wide and so deep. and i wonder what you make of our sort of inability to focus on both pieces of that. >> yeah, i think it's the spectacle. you know, to my mind, nicolle, the insurrection has been ongoing. there is the moment of the assault on the capitol january 6th. that's the equivalent of storming the bastille. but then there's been these other elements that aren't really just about the spectacle of violence but really the ongoing assault on institutions, on the very ways in which we conduct our elections, but most importantly generating a crisis

of legitimacy where people are questioning whether or not the elections are actually fair, just sowing doubt at every turn, which of course means people will doubt the results. so in all of those instances what we have been doing is focusing, and rightly so, on the character of donald trump. and his minions. but we haven't done enough work, i think, in focusing on the ongoing insurrection that is happening across the nation that's impacting american democracy at its foundation. >> and mary, i think we as a group here, i mean we as a country. you don't see a lot of floor speeches about the big lie. and we'll ask the congressman why that is. we don't see a lot of white house events about injecting truth into these local debates about election integrity laws or voter suppression laws when they're passing. i usually know when they're zipping through a stitt legislature because of news reporting, frankly. and i wonder -- you know, now that it's timed to this threat

of political violence what should we be doing about it, mary? >> well, those statements need to come from the national level. elected members of congress, the white house, other elected officials at the state level. people in positions of leadership. because i will tell you just last week i was talking with local election officials and county boards of supervisors, who have been subject to just endless threats and harassment and intimidation because you know what? they were republicans and they said there was no evidence of election fraud. so if we are asking our folks at that local level to come out and make those strong statements, to tell the truth -- i guess i shouldn't call it a strong statement. right? to tell the truth. and they are doing it even knowing what's going to happen, even knowing that the former president is going to basically sic people on them to threaten them and harass them. some of them had to testify at trial against their threateners

and those who have sent very, very vicious and explicit messages to them. if we're going to ask that at that local level, we need to be modeling the behavior at the national level. and certainly people like congress-member swalwell have been doing that, but there are too many people who have stayed silent. and silent is complicity here because that message needs to be loud and clear. now, it's going to be less impactful among some quarters if it's coming from the current biden white house, but there are certainly many, many members of congress and i would also say former presidents. we've heard some of this. former presidents of both parties. former high-level cabinet officials of both parties. this needs to be a unified message, that there was no election fraud in 2020, there was no election fraud in 2022, and our systems are secure. it is very, very hard to commit election fraud in any kind of way that would affect an election in this country. that's been the message under republicans and democrats in the

very places that administer our elections. >> can you run -- does the government work? what mary said is true. can the government work in a post-truth, post-fact environment? i mean, there's no evidence of fraud, right? 30% of americans, 80% of the trump base think there is. again, rudy couldn't find any. bill barr couldn't find any. the only thing that's actually rigged is the scales that trump uses to weigh himself on. there's no election fraud. there wasn't in '16. there wasn't in '20. there wasn't in '22. how do you -- do you feel like you're talking to a wall? where does this conversation go from here? >> well, it's breaking down and it's affecting everyday lives, right? because if in your crazy head you want to enact election reforms and leverage the funding of the federal government to do that because you won't accept the outcome of the election, then you're affecting people who rely on the government to function. and oh, by the way, that's kind of where we find ourselves right now with republicans who want to

defund doj, who want to defund any election disinformation programs that we have in the country. but i am optimistic because i believe that if we get this right democracy just needs to live long enough to live forever. that means getting through just one more election. so worst day for democracy is probably 2016. then what did millions of women do? they marched. they registered. the parkland generation showed up, beat 19 members of congress. won the house in '18, won the house in '20. kept the house, won the senate. beat expectations in '22, won a supreme court seat in wisconsin, one in jacksonville, florida. just won in ohio. so we are winning when we organize and mobilize. and so if we can just beat down maga-ism one more election, i actually think that we're going to do enough to protect democracy. now, there's one more theater that we have added in in the last couple years, in this battle, it's not just the ballot box. it's the courtroom.

and people like marc elias and others have recognized that if we go to court there's still enough reasonable judges who can be a firewall for many of these abuses. >> are you optimistic? >> i'm less optimistic than congressman swalwell. i would say one positive thing before i give my pessimism. i like that map that you showed earlier of the states with election deniers. there were some states that didn't have any. wisconsin, pennsylvania, arizona. because we beat them in the midterms. like you said, the worst election-denying candidates lost. that's a good thing. here's what makes me pessimistic. how are you breaking -- this can't work forever. right? our democracy cannot rely on the fact that the democrats have to win every time. >> i know. it's too scary. it's too much pressure. >> when you're talking about the red flashing light on friday, it's like what if we have an economic recession right before the next election or the election after that? and voters are voting on their pocketbooks instead of democracy. just enough. right? like the 2020 election was too close for comfort. 2022 is better than expected but too close for comfort. >> i agree with you. the threat for losing an election can't be that our

democracy ends. >> right. and i think that if we cannot break through in the maga world, and i'll just put some names to what mary mccord said. if the people who work for donald trump don't speak. if people that speak to maga world can't tamp this down and take that number from 35% of the country, or whatever it is down to 20%, a real minority, then i think we're in big trouble. that means john kelly, jim mattis. that means the people that were on the committee -- >> powell. yeah. >> the committee that wants to save america need to save america. >> leaving it to democrats to win you will at the elections p. >> we can't make it just about democrats. we'll turn off people who don't want to be under that label. that's why i think it has to be team community versus team chaos. and you may not be with us in future battles but for this battle, for freedom we all have to be in it together. otherwise -- >> sort of like liz cheney's mid-term message. i hope to not be out here for you next time.

just taking a quick break. nobody's going anywhere. we'll ask the congressman about another tragic and scary biproduct of the maga base's conduct on january 6th. the skyrocketing costs lawmakers like congressman swalwell are being forced to pay just to protect themselves and their families. a brand new report is out on that. stay with us. new report is out n that stay with us shelves. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. so caramel swirl is always there for the taking. after switching to the farmer's dog we noticed so many improvements in remi's health. his allergies were going away and he just had amazing energy. it looks like nutritious food, and it is. i'm investing in my dog's health and happiness. get started at longlivedogs.com

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no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. between the 2020 election and the 2022 midterms candidates running for the u.s. house and senate increased their campaign

spending on security by more than 500%. that's according to a new analysis from the "washington post," which examined filings with the federal elections commission. the post writes this, quote, spending by house and senate candidates rose from 1.3 million to nearly $8 million in that time. and according to the post's reporting the data shows that, quote, campaigns spent more on security during the final two months of the 2022 election cycle than they did during the entire 2020 cycle. everyone is back. we want you and your young family to be safe all the time, and this seems like a lot of money. >> it is a lot of money. and it's a lot of time. my chief of staff estimates that she spends eight to ten hours a week working with the fbi, capitol police, department of justice just dealing with the threats. it terrorizes the interns, who are the ones who take the calls. i remember being an intern. it usually was someone calling about, you know, a bill they didn't like. now it's a specific -- >> or a tour. >> or a tour, yeah, ideally.

but my first priority is to protect my family and my staff. and we do that. and we're not going to do that on the cheap. but it's kind of a two-fer for people who make these threats, right? because not only do you get to terrorize somebody but you also force them to spend out of their campaign funds. and so you can, you know, weaken their ability to defend themselves because the capitol police don't have the resources. look, we have seen at the very top, you know, a republican party that prefers violence over voting and refuses to condemn this. nicolle, the speaker of the house a couple months ago didn't like something i said and came up to me on the house floor and said he wanted to fight me. that's where they are right now. violence is -- >> what did you say? >> i told him i wasn't going to do it in a certain way. but violence is the lowest form of communication. and they have reduced themselves to condoning that. and if we don't call it out, if we don't see unity as an antidote you are giving a lane

to people who make these threats. >> we're already there. they've already greenlit violence and it's connected to the last story we had. the reason the election denier story is so important is because what the election deniers are doing is putting election crime commissions in place. do you know how many people commit the crimes of voter fraud? very, very, very, very few. so the whole reason to have a commission is to scare people. the whole reason to threaten lawmakers who you don't agree with is to intimidate them. the whole reason to threaten election workers is so there aren't any. it's working and i feel like we don't rumble with that as often as we should. >> you know, i agree with you, nicolle. for some folks in this country there's an existential threat, that their very idea of america is at stake and they're willing to die and kill for it. and you know, i'm reminded of this extraordinary column written in 1963 by eugene

patterson, nicolle. he was the executive editor of the "atlanta journal-constitution." and he wrote it the day after the bombing of 16th street baptist church. and it's called "flower for the graves." "flowers for the graves." and what he does in that piece is he doesn't blame, you know, the sick people who threw the dynamite. he blames the south, the white south. he says we own that shoe. he blames the politicians who stoked hatred and grievance. he blamed the nation that the nation bore judgment. so here we are in this moment where we're playing fast and loose with what we're actually seeing. we know what we're seeing. there is the condition, the environment for violence that may very well take shape and somebody's going to get hurt. in fact, what did the secretary of state in georgia say? somebody's going to get killed. and we still haven't. how can i put it? we still haven't kind of told the truth about where we are in

this mess, it seems to me. >> so eddie, let's pull that up tomorrow and read it together because i tried to start that conversation on friday because of the number of people who say to me off the air they're really worried about all this, about the attacks on election officials, about the attacks on secretaries of state who say they're looking at the 14th amendment, about attacks on republican politicians that mary's talking about, attacks on everything except one group, right? so let's rumble with that together. eddie, mary, congressman swalwell, tim, thank you so much for being at the table and having this conversation with us. coming up for us, friend of our program iranian american activist and dissident masih alinejad reveals that she was advised to go into hiding, into witness protection after dozens of threats on her life. she'll be our guest next. y day. so big, we'll have you saying...

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americans who were wrongly held captive in iran are on their way back home. they were released as part of a prisoner exchange that saw the united states free five iranians convicted of crimes in the united states as well as the united states unfreezing $6 billion in oil revenue. all of this coincides with the one-year anniversary of the murder of mahsa amini, the 22-year-old iranian woman who died in police custody after she was detained by the government's morality police for not wearing a hijab in accordance with

government rules. her death set into motion a historic wave of citizen protests inside iran with women and men in iran protesting women bravely taking off their hijabs in defiance of the iranian regime. perhaps there is no better person that we have access to to talk about what's happening on the ground, what's happening to women and their parents and children and boys than masih alinejad. she has been a voice for the voiceless, for the shut out of the conversation humans in iran where she has been exiled and she's now a target of that country's oppressive government. earlier in the year three men with ties to the iranian regime were charged by the department of justice in a murder for hire plot targeting her. and last week she revealed that she was advised to go into witness protection for her own safety. masih alinejad has not taken up that advice and she does not plan to. she joins us now.

>> it's not in my dna. >> no, i know. when i read that, i told you in the break, i had two minds. i'm happy they're trying to protect you. and two, have they met you? >> to be honest, when i read the e-mail i was excited that wow, this is, you know, my adopted country, they're trying to protect me because they said that high-level protection. i was like wow. and then in a conversation on the phone i found out this is witness protection. it means for those of you if you don't have any idea what prints protection means, that i have to change my name, my identity, my maybe appearance and go in hiding, into hiding, like just get disappeared. this is not in my dna. i want to be loud. i want to give voice to voiceless people. >> and i think i understand the why. we've talked about how difficult it is for us to cover what's happening in iran and you are their voice. even if you wouldn't do it for yourself, i feel like you wouldn't do it for them. >> not at all. look, right now that i'm talking

to you, everyone in the media, they're talking about five americans got free. i am happy. for sure. but how come the biden administration gave $6 billion -- to me it's more than 6 billion. my sources tell me it could be $20 billion. so they give this money to islamic republic, but how come? they left the one that is in the death row. he's an american as well. there are a lost political prisoners they wanted me to give them a voice. right now when i'm talking to you the family members of mahsa amini and other people who got killed last year, they got arrested. the family members of more than 70 people. so to us iranians this $6 billion is a gift to you are o'killers from biden administration. >> it points to the asymmetry of an american administration and an american government that values life so much negotiating with a regime like the iranians.

it's never going to be equal. it's never going to be fair. because they don't value life and there is no even trade with a country that values it more than anything else. and i think it's a fair criticism. i want to ask you what you understand about the arrest of mahsi's family? >> her father got arrested. the islamic republic have fear of any potential uprising. they know these family members, they can mobilize people. people can sympathy with their pain and struggle. what actually bothers me that you can't see the news about the cam members of these 70 people, especially those who got executed. you remember you invited me here. i was begging everyone to stop the islamic republic from executing these protesters.

now their family members are in prison. that is why i'm saying that all i hear in the west is about nuclear deal, which i believed this is allowing the islamic republic to bury human rights, or about this prisoner swap that nobody talks about 22,000 innocent protesters who are in prison. that is why i believe that handing out money to the hostage takers and giving them visa, the butcher who ordered the killing of mahsi amini and 1500 protesters in november and 700 who got killed recently, he ordered that. but he's being welcomed here in new york. the members of revolutionary guard are on the terrorist list, which i actually gave some of their names to jake sullivan. i asked them, how come you designate them as a terrorist

organization, but they can come and get visa and be part of the delegation? >> your fundamental issue -- and this is a practice that our government engages in, is with separating out -- the nuclear deal was done separate. >> you can't. >> your point is if you're living in iran, you don't separate what happens to you. >> not at all. you're talking about a regime that kills teenagers, kills children. how you trust them? >> they benefit by the fact that we don't have cameras there. we can't show the world. >> how come you're going to have a deal with a regime that they hide their nuclear activities? they actually cheat. they lie. how you trust them? but i have a solution. look, right now that we are talking here, the u.s. citizen, the u.k. citizen, german

citizen, french citizen, swedish citizen, all the citizens of western countries are being hostage in iranian prison. they have been used like bargaining chip. instead of giving them money and sending them signal, okay, come and get more hostages. downgrade your diplomatic relation. that is how the u.s. government should do. the western continues are looking to u.s. government. what they do they're going to follow. right now i'm sure that more money is going to go to the islamic revolutionary guard to kill innocent people in the name of prisoner swap. this is a slap in the face of mahsa amini and other innocent prisoners. >> they're so lucky to have you and your voice for them. thank you. >> that's why i don't want to go into hiding. >> i read it. i told you, i said i am sure they are right about the threats to her and i'm sure they haven't

met her yet if they think she would ever go. >> never, never. i refuse to be silent. thank you for not abandoning iranian women. >> thank you for being here. iranian women. >> thank you for being here. we're not writers, but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help keep your information secure. ♪♪ we're not architects, but we help build stronger communities. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. our top story begins with this iconic vigil, surveillance footage as feds went to search a man who was almost attorney general during trump's most extreme coup efforts. that's jeffrey