>> that's as far as you'll go. look, you started say i'm not quoting on "the beat," and by the end, you're quoting on "the beat." >> look where i'm at. i'm going to get run out of my neighborhood. >> appreciate it. thanks for being here. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> you're entitled to believe and trust advice of counsel. you have one of the leading constitutional scholars in the united states, john eastman, say to president trump, this is a protocol that you can follow. it's legal. that eliminates criminal intent. >> trump's attorney just last month saying that trump cannot be held responsible for his alleged crimes because he was only listening to the advice of lawyers and learned constitutional scholars. this weekend, trump himself blew that argument out of the water, saying it was all his idea. also tonight, new reporting on

the alleged nexus of justice brett kavanaugh and dark money millionaires, and alabama's open defiance of court rulings on unfairly drawn legislative maps. plus, have republicans no shame? lauren boebert's public groping is just the latest in a string of bad behavior by the party that pretends to care about family values. but we begin tonight with what appears to be one of the hardest jobs in america. being one of donald trump's lawyers. first, you have to worry about whether you will ever be paid by the man notoriously known to skip out on paying his bills, including to his very own lawyers. ask rudy giuliani. speaking of giuliani, there is the second worry, which is that working for trump could put you in legal and professional jeopardy or at a minimum, could make you a witness like another trump lawyer, evan corcoran. and then there was the third worry, how to mount a winning defense for the twice impeached, four times indicted former

president who has a penchant for suddenly demolishing his lawyers' strategies by making ill advised confessions. they sent out a letter in april saying they have seen no indication that trump knowingly possessed any of the marked documents and that in fact any classified documents that were sent to mar-a-lago were due to mistakes by white house staff and the general services administration. just two little weeks later, trump not only undercut that defense, but he did it on live tv. >> i have ever right to under the presidential records act. you have the presidential records act. i was there, and i took what i took, and it gets declassified. just so you understand, i had every right to do it. i didn't make a secret of it. >> and in the other federal case brought by the special counsel involving trump's attempts to try to overturn the 2020 election, his lead attorney john lauro tried to set the stage to point the blame at his election lawyers claiming trump was just

following their advice. whether or not that defense strategy would have worked in court, we may never know because over the weekend, trump turned to his lawyers and said, hold my beer. >> you called some of your outside lawyers, you said they had crazy theories. why were you listening to them? were you listening to them because they were telling you what you wanted to hear? >> you know who i listen to myself, i saw what happened. i thought the election and thought it was over at 10:00 in the evening. >> were you calling the shots though, mr. president, ultimately? >> as to whether or not i believed it was rigged? sure. it was my decision. >> also might be causing his lawyers a lot of heart burn is the fact that trump has claimed numerous times in the past few week he's ready and willing to testify under oath during his trials. it's okay, trump lawyers. nothing to worry about. let's not forget what trump claimed back in 2015. >> i know more about courts than any human being on earth. >> okay. with me now is catherine

christian, former manhattan assistant district attorney, and joyce vance, former attorney and alabama law professor and msnbc analyst. it's so hard to do your intros. i have to talk to you catherine first. as a prosecutor, how much wouldio have given to have the defendant in front of you simply confess to all the crimes on television? that can be used against him in court, those interviews? >> this is a gift to the prosecutors, as his lawyers are crying, the prosecutors guaranteed, there's a member of each team, four indictments, who are culling all of his interviews on radio, on tv, his postings on social media. and going, yippie. this is a continuation of his confessions tour. he contradicts his prior statements. he contradicts his lawyers. constantly. so even if he doesn't testify at trial, and i think he won't, the prosecutors will play these statements during their direct testimony. they can do this during the direct case. >> can they, because he's given

public interviews, can they subpoena -- they can't make him testify? >> no. >> it's up to him. >> he has the absolute right to remain silent. >> he ain't using it. let's say that. >> he's speaking so they can use it against him. >> joyce, but wait, there's more. we played this before. i want just to give you and the audience the gravity of the amount of times he keeps confessing to the things he's accused of in court. roll them. >> if you're the president of the united states, you can declassify just by saying it's declassified, even by thinking about it. because you are sending it to mar-a-lago or to wherever you're sending it. >> in other words, whatever documents a president decides to take with him, he has the absolute right to do so. that's the law. and it couldn't be more clear. >> as president, you have every right to have these documents, personal belongings and whatever else there is. >> many people have asked me why i had these boxes. why did you want them?

the answer, in addition to having every right under the presidential records act, is that these boxes were containing all types of personal belongings, many, many things. shirts and shoes and everything. i hadn't had a chance it go through all the boxes. it's a long tedious job, takes a long time. which i was prepared to do, but i have a very busy life. i have had a very busy life. >> there is a risk i think in a lot of the media of giving trump more credit for intelligence than he probably deserved based on his just actual behavior. but at the risk of playing that game, is there a world, joyce, in which doing this helps him in the sense that it poisons the jury pool because it convinces a certain set of voters that somehow the presidential records act does apply and even if he according to the latest abc news headline, wrote to-do lists on the classified documents, the things are marked classified. he uses them to doodle to-do

lists and literally sort of destroyed the documents by doing that. but even if he's doing something that outrageous that then there are some jurors who have heard him say this enough times that that jury pool is then poisoned? >> so i think you're exactly right that that's what he's trying to do. when the evidence is this strong against you, you have to try to poison the jury pool, i guess, if you're trump, thinking the way he does. but here's the reality that he will face. during voir dire, they'll have an opportunity to talk with potential jurors. most jurors will have heard something about the case and some will know a great deal on the commitment the lawyers will look for and that the judge will enforce is that those jurors can set aside everything they have heard outside of the courtroom and decide the case based solely on the evidence and the laws the judge instructs them on. although sometimes people are incredible and don't believe that actually happens, it does in courtrooms.

we don't need to look any further than paul manafort's trial, where one of the jurors was a woman who said she was a strong trump sproerter, but she listened to the evidence in the trial, manafort was quality and she voted to convict. >> the same thing happened in the e. jean carroll case. one or two lawyers who people when they heard about what happened, there's a couple of real trumpees in there, but they looked at the evidence. would one of the things the prosecutor dooz in the closing or during the trial is just explain the presidential records act? will they get the opportunity to debunk that claim? because he is injecting that into the sort of atmosphere. >> they should be able to, or the judge will instruct the jury. now, this is the classified documents judge is different than the january 6th judge. >> good point. >> because he's just wrong on the law. that's just not the law. he can keep his shirts and golf shirts, but he can't keep classified documents. the law is clear that the official documents have to go to the national archives. his personal belongings can go to him. >> no one wants his shirts.

joyce, the thing about it is, donald trump, all the way back to 2015, and 2016, made the argument that hillary clinton should be in prison because among the personal records on her personal server were things with a c on them, that were incidentally part of the stuff that was in her personal server. they have made the argument that you need to lock her up. there have been military people, high military officials who have been prosecuted for taking classified documentses. former government officials. it is just not the case that anyone gets away with this, so it's wild he can even try to do it. i want to go to one of his other claims here. he's also trying to inject into the atmosphere that it was really nancy mosey's fault that january 6th happened. he said in the "meet the press" interview he ordered tens of thousands of troops, a claim that is patently false. in fact, his own former defense secretary, acting defense secretary, gave interviews on the record saying nope, there was never an ask for that. could a claim like that, donald

trump lying and trying to cast blame on speaker pelosi, is that something that might be at issue in the january 6th case? because he's also lying about that stuff? >> so i think to catherine's point earlier, some place there are a couple lawyers on each of these trial teams who are taking meticulous notes every time trump does an interview. they're probably putting together video clips. and at some point, these juries will be able to compare trump's statements, these lies that he's telling in public, to what the truth is. that might be witness testimony or in the mar-a-lago case, i think it's very likely that people who advise trump about the rules for handling classified documents will testify and the jury will see the classified documents with their clear markings, and then they'll hear trump saying crazy talk about the presidential records act. so yes, these public interviews that he's giving are ill-advised to say the least, and

prosecutors will end up hanging him with his own words. >> let me talk about the lawyers for a second. the idea that donald trump's own attorneys are going to wind up being witnesses for the prosecution really in both of these cases, john eastman and others, and mr. clark that was going to be his acting ag, and in the case of -- there's so many cases, even the georgia case, his own lawyers, and in the mar-a-lago case, he was trying to fool and trick his own lawyers into breaking the law for him. what is the kind of -- are there any stipulations on calling his lawyers to the stand, any limitation on calling his attorneys to the stand in either of those cases in. >> they're all now codefendants. on the fulton county case. so and they as defendants they have a right to remain silent. and if that case -- if the january 6th case goes first, so they will still have the fulton

county, you know, indictment hanging over their head. so if they were called to testify, they would plead the fifth amendment. so they're not going to be unless they cooperated, they're not going to be witnesses against donald trump. though, witnesses for themselves, they're already pointing fingers at donald trump. >> absolutely, and joyce, you are now going to have some of these cases go first. that is a really good question. if any of those two people that are going to have an early trial in georgia get convicted, can they still be called as witnesses against donald trump when he goes to trial? >> so it's a little bit complicated here because when you're talking about a fifth amendment privilege to avoid incriminating yourself, yes, their liability in georgia will be at an end. either they'll be acquitted or convicted, but because the federal case is still hanging over them, they could refuse to testify, saying that that case is still out in the atmosphere, and avoid testifying that way. although, joy, to your point,

sometimes defendants post trial decide they want to cooperate, even after a conviction with sentencing down the road, that can provide some powerful motivation at the 11th hour. >> yeah, if i'm one of the jan 6 defendants cooling my heels in prison, i may consider a little payback time. we'll see what happens with those folks. joyce, thank you. catherine is going to stick with me. up next, a supreme court ruling ordering new congressional maps gave hope to black voters in alabama. why are they still waiting? new reporting on that infuriating republican boondoggle. >> and the dark money behind it, when "the reidout" continues. shingles. some describe it as pulsing electric shocks or sharp, stabbing pains. ♪♪ this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. a pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you.

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in june, the supreme court ordered alabama to redraw its congressionp maps because the maps republicans drew back in 2021 denied black voters the opportunity to elect a candidate of their choice. in almost all of the districts. in july, an open defiance of that court order, the republican controlled alabama legislature gave the middle finger to the supreme court and submitted yet another map that once again denied black voters equal representation. a lower court's three-judge panel had enough of the republican obstruction and ordered a court appointed special master to draw the map. at the time, the legislature's defiance was pretty much shocking and confusing. until the alabama political reporter and online news site dug a little deeper, uncovering

the real reason. according to its sources, the state's decision to ignore the court is part of a larger strategy intended to force the high court to rehear the entire case and to strike down section 2 of the voting rights act all together. they described a plan concocted by d.c. based attorneys and championed by alabama attorney general steve marshall and other alabama republican officials. these sources say that republicans believe that they would win their argument if the supreme court reviewed their new map. how can they be so sure? well, these same sources revealed that republican lawmakers believe their d.c. connections have intelligence that justice brett kavanaugh is open to hearing the case on its merits. nbc has not confirmed that reporting. now, what the alabama political reporter could not tell us at

the time was who in washington, d.c. was backing this open defiance. well, today in a new report, they seem to have figured it out. and it will not surprise you to learn that leonard leo, and people close to him, play a central role in pushing alabama to defy the supreme court. namely, a d.c. based law firm called consaboy mccarthy, which works hand in glove with right wing groups tied to leonard leo. another member of another leo group of the federalist society who argued the original case before the supreme court is working with the d.c. law firm, since he is the original architect of the defiance plan. his wife also happens to work on brett kavanaugh's confirmation team. a direct link from alabama to a sitting member of the court which was unknown until it was reported just today. the state's attorney general, steve marshall, looking to capitalize on this obstruction also has tied to multiple leo

organizations including the federalist society and the republican attorney generals association which gets a whole lot of money from leo. this comes days after politico reported leonard leo has created an extensive infrastructure to push key conservative issues like gerrymandering, abortion access, religious liberty, and pro fossil fuel cases before a friendly court, with the heb of one of the justices' wives, ginni thomas. you can understand why republicans across the country are emboldened to strip people of their rights given the majority of the conservative court has direct links to leonard leo's federalist society. we'll hear soon what the court thinks about alabama's defiance. they have asked the supreme court stay the lower court's decision which forced a neutral arbiter to draw a new map. joining me is the man who broke all this new and important reporting, bill britt, and back with us is catherine christian. let me just let you explain to us please, mr. britt, and great

reporting, great job on this. where was this plot to openly defy the court order hatched in alabama or in washington? or was it a joint operation? >> it was a joint operation. because what happened was this idea came down from washington. but it was accepted by steve marshall and edmund l'ecuyer, who then went to the legislature and convinced the senate, the state senate to pass these defiant maps. while the house of representatives in alabama resisted it. but the fix was in because you had the connections, as you had pointed out, between the l'ecuyers, marshall, leo leonard, and all of the machinations of this ultra right

dark money network that wants to come to the birthplace of the civil rights movement and disenfranchise black voters once again. >> right, because let's not forget that the first case gutting the voting rights act also was in the state of alabama. that was the case that happened in 2012. 2013. so let's go back again. how are they so confident that brett kavanaugh would rule in their direction? >> well, one of the things they have done is they have cited justin kavanaugh repeatedly in their appeals and in their arguments. how he argued that race-based voting or redistricting cannot go on forever. the same sort of argument that was made under the 14th amendment to strike down affirmative action. and what they're counting on is

that kavanaugh will say, well, when i heard the case on the merits, because they didn't hear it on the merits, but when we hear the case on the merits, i changed my mind. because you know, he was not all in with chief justice roberts and the other judges, the other justices. he was only a big toe in. but it was a significant in. this time, they're hoping they can change their mind. no, i cannot say with any certainty that justice kavanaugh will join in the scheme, but when you look at the bed fellows, it is an awfully crowded queen sized bed. >> well, and ginni thomas is in it as well. talk a little bit about the fact that ginni thomas, our insurrectionist wife of a supreme court justice, she's also tied to this dark money operation. >> she is, and this is the thing that i hope people can come to

understand, that leonard leo is called the architect of our current supreme court. and you have ginni thomas, who is literally in bed with one of the justices. and he is bent on changing american jurisprudence and disenfranchising black voters even though he's a black man. but i would say he went from being an angry young black man to a very angry old black man, since the day he was confirmed. and this is the problem that we're having, is that there is a cabal, or a group as you may call them, that are working to turn america into a white, christian nation. i can't even find three churches in alabama that agree on what christianity is, much less who gets to decide what a white

christian nation looks like in the united states of america. >> and to turn to you, catherine, they're doing this by making the argument that allowing 27% of the population to have more than one congressional district, 27% of the population has one congressional district, is the real racism. it is racist in their argument to force white voters to vote next to black voters in the same district. your thoughts. >> that's ridiculous. this is sort of -- it's not sort of, it is like reverting back to what happened after brown v. board of education in 1954, when the southern states said, f you, so to speak, to the supreme court, and there was a massive resistance to it. this is the same. the supreme court is 5-4 in june. if kavanaugh flips it will be 5-4 and it will be reverting back, and this one district will survive. >> legally, doesn't this state still have to draw these new districts? they have been ordered by a

judge do it. can they avoid it? >> they can unless they get a stay, which is what they want. that's why they're fighting it to the bitter end. they want that stay from the supreme court. >> i'll give you the last word, mr. britt. this is your reporting. is the legislature or is the special master seated to your understanding, and are they prepared to start drawing maps as ordered by the court? >> a man named richard allen. he is known to be fair, but he is very right wing. he is not some moderate, so it gives us pause to think that we do not have a neutral map drawer, but i have been told, and i know him, that he is fair. let's see if he's fair in a state that doesn't play fair. >> well said. bill britt, congratulations on the great reporting. please come back and keep us posted on what's happening in this case. catherine christian, thank you so much for doing overtime with us. still ahead, lowering the

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okay, i want to talk to republican voters for just a second. i mean real talk. when you look at the people who

supposedly represent your values in government, if you're honest with yourself, aren't you kind of embarrassed? i mean, are you really proud to be represented by marjorie taylor greene and george santos and matt gaetz, or what about lauren boebert, this lauren boebert in the streets. >> speaking as a mother of four boys, enough is enough. i don't send my boys to school to receive indoctrination from the woke mob or to be sexualized by groomers. >> but this lauren boebert in the dark. i mean, citizens of aspen, this is your congresswoman. for once, reaching across the aisle, shall we say. look at her. and just keep it real. that's not even her soon to be ex-husband, hashtag #no fault divorce, who has a police record for exposing himself in front of

teenagers. come on, aren't you embarrassed? that's the same laurent boebert who called democrats and lgbtq people and drag queens groomers. is that the quality of representation that you genuinely want? as a side note, her new friend is reportedly a liberal who runs a bar that holds lgbtq friendly events including drag shows. just for added irony. so are all of the pretend christians who can't find a shred of compassion in their hearts for hunter biden and his drug addiction going to give boebert the grace she has asked for in her apology? apparently, this christian grace thing is politically situational, and only available to republicans who commit adultery and catch the feels with someone not their husband. or vape in front of pregnant women, for that extra pro-life spice. meanwhile, the only colleague coming to her rescue at the moment appears to be the equally embarrassing matt gaetz who said he stands by lauren boebert because she's effective. effective at what, exactly?

trolling, rampant hypocrisy, making beetlejees into a rom calm. everything is another iteration of the staggering entitlement of today's republicans. the same kind as texas attorney general ken paxton showed in his impeachment trial as his own republican staff testified he abused his office to do the bidding of a wealthy donor. and in how he handled his own extramarital affair. well, over the weekend, the right wing republicans in the texas senate heard all about that and decided they weren't embarrassed at all, and acquitted him right back-to-back. acquitted him right back to being the state's top cop. embarrassing behavior is at ever level of the republican party. democrats have obama, republicans have a pretend obama, vivek ramaswamy, who loudly did this impersonation in the first debate. >> let me address a question that is on everyone's mind.

who the heck is this skinny guy with a funny last name and what the heck is he doing in the middle of this debate stage. >> lifted from obama. this is the guy who made the ridiculous claim that the nra worked to free black people after slavery and he would have passed election reform if he was vice president, and would somehow magically have putin quit china, he would make him do it. that is so dumb, harvard and the soros family should disown him. oh, wait, you didn't know he was a soros affirmative action recipient despite supposedly opposing affirmative action and he got gutted by our colleague mehdi hasan. >> did you make $700,000. >> not at the time that i had applied for the scholarship. >> yes, you did. >> that december. >> yes, you did. this is awkward for you because you did. i have got the tax returns in my face. >> awkward for him. that is your bootleg obama, republicans? really? then you have donald trump who

apparently thinks he ran against obama in 2016 and world war ii hasn't happened yet, and you claim it's biden who's noncorpas mentis. just admit you're embarrassed. whether you agree with alexandria ocasio-cortez or adam schiff, jamie raskin, you can say they're not embarrassing. i mean, vote for who you want to vote for, but shouldn't voters at least have some standards? we'll give you more on what the republican cringe caucus is up to next.

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mr. speaker, you are out of compliance with the agreement that allowed you to assume this role. the path forward for the house of representatives is to either bring you into immediate total compliance or remove you. >> seems like only yesterday that congressman matt gaetz of florida began his on going slap fight with kevin mccarthy and it's only gotting more embarrassing as gaetz and the rest of the maga fringe caucus inches closer and closer to a government shutdown by opposing mccarthy's efforts to get republicans to, i don't know, paz a bill to fund the government. in the meantime, gaetz has real priorities. sources tell nbc news he's widely expected to run for governor of florida in 2026, because of course. joining me is david jolly, former republican congressman, who is no longer affiliated with the party, and i wonder why. you are the perfect person that we really wanted to talk to this on this, david, because you have

been one of the people who has been the most candid, that you actually did feel embarrassment about this party, which is why you're not affiliated with anymore. at some point we have to talk about the voters who are the taste level of someone like a matt gaetz or kevin mccarthy. how are these people even electable? make it make sense for us. >> yeah, i take it one step further, joy. i felt embarrassment at some of the actions and then regret, not so much that i didn't try to address it when i was there, but i failed. even on policy issues like guns and marriage equality, campaign finance, climate change, things i tried to do even as a republican, i failed. it was a clear signal to me as i became ostracized this was not my party. and then you look at the contrast of those who really are carrying the heartbeat of today's republican party, matt gaetz, lauren boebert, marjorie taylor greene, even kevin mccarthy who allows all this, and it's an embarrassing club to be considered a member of.

right now, however, matt gaetz, the leader of the club, has kevin mccarthy exactly where he wants him. i don't think we should feel bad for kevin mccarthy because he has created this moment. if there are republicans in the caucus tonight who feel embarrassment, you created it too because you elected kevin mccarthy speaker on this corrupt bargain he struck. >> i have to say, no woman, nancy pelosi could never have become speaker exhibiting the kind of mediocrity we have seen in kevin mccarthy. let's be honest. no woman could get that far in politics in the democratic party. it just wouldn't happen. i'm not saying democratic voters are better or smarter. it's just there's a certain minimum standard they demand. a lot of these democrats are lawyers, they're constitutional scholars. they get up and articulate, they're people like obama, and democrats will punish you if they don't think you're smart and there, but in the republican party, somebody like a matt gaetz can legitimately say he's going to be the governor. look at the current governor. he thinks slavery benefitted

black people. it's like, how is there a way to pull back republican voters, and say to them, you can have better than laurent boebert? >> yeah. >> you don't need her. >> i don't think so. this is a path that republican voters have chosen by elevating these people. they continue to re-elect them. and joy, i would suggest assigning mediocrity to kevin mccarthy is very generous of you tonight. you must be in good cheer. because the bottom line is the only reason kevin mccarthy got the job after 15 votes is because nobody else would take it. if anybody else had challenged kevin mccarthy, he would have lost, and even today, the only thing that might be saving kevin mccarthy from a motion to vacate is nobody else will take the job. elise stefanik, maybe steve scalise is looking at it, maybe elise is salivating for it, but not in this moment. gaetz also knows that. a motion to vacate is a nuclear trigger that removed kevin mccarthy, and but then what?

the one reason matt gaetz might do this, and he's very deliberative and conniving, if he does it will be a reason, and that reason is likely because he intends to win the republican nomination for governor in the state of florida in '26. >> yeah, and don't get me started on elise stefanik. she's just faking it, and that's even more embarrassing than actually being mediocre. i want to talk about donald trump for a moment. i'm still old enough to remember when a republican saying liberal jews are ruining america and israel, something like that would get you excised bah the party. no one would want to be seen with you. how are we at a point when the former president of the united states attacks jewish people broadly on rosh hashanah, and no one says anything? >> part ignorance and part a permission structure culturally that allowed anti-semitism, bias, and racism to proliferate and elevate itself within the republican party. donald trump is making a case that some have tried to make embedded in the qualitative

process of policy, but he's making an anti-semitic conkwlugz because it's based on the fact he thinks jewish americans are a monolithic voting block. they're monolithic in their view of the world and their politics. when you assign a monolithic quality to any race, any gender, to black and brown communities or the jewish american community, you're committing intrinsic bias. those words resonated with every community that has felt that intrinsic bias. >> we saw mitt romney, you know, be very candid. let's be clear, mitt rumny humiliated himself having that dinner with trump. he had his moments too, but he seems to have sobered up. and i wonder if behind the scenes you still -- you have conversations with any sitting members, if you're talking with them, that admit behind the scenes they too are embarrassed by where the party is today. >> yeah, but they cut the wood and sanded it for the coffin

that mitt romney just put a nail in. mitt romney's departure is one more nail in the coffin of the republican party that died a long time ago. it is not coming back, and i think his words of resignation really reflect that. mitt romney's type in the republican party are gone. they have been out of power for a long time. his departure is an affirmation this party is dead, and the question is, can democrats go into a debate with a party that is no longer coalescing or rooted around ideology and politic but instead this angry populist cultural theme and can democrats beat that back with traditional policies that try to lift all people up? it's a contest of ideas that democrats must win. >> or we won't have a democracy, we won't have voting rights, and women will essentially all be living in a red state with no rights over our own bodies. they want a national abortion ban. david jolly, always appreciate you. coming up, rolling stone

cofounder jan winner comes under fire for offensive comments about black folks. we'll be right back. and last for weeks. it can make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. (♪♪) rsv can be a dangerous virus... [sneeze] ...for those 60 and older. it's not just a cold.

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and roll hall of fame board out one of its founders, after he said, black and female musicians were not intellectually articulate enough to be included in his new book. an interview with the new york times, the rolling stone magazine cofounder was pressed,

and why his book, the masters, yes that is the actual title, which contains interviews with seven rock legends, only features white men. he responded regarding the woman of rock, just none of them were as articulated enough on an intellectual level. he expressed a similar have summit about black artists, who historically are the ones for creating the genre and culture that he has profited from in rolling stone. >> black artists, i mean, you know, stevie wonder, incredible genius, you know, these are genius artists. i mean, i suppose when i use a word as broad as, the masters, the fault is using that word. you know, but, maybe marvin gaye, i could cut -- , they didn't articulate at that level. for public relations to say, maybe i should have one black and one woman artist to include here that didn't measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of

criticism. >> joining me now, is nelson george, filmmaker, cultural critic, and author of the hippest trip in america, soul train, and the evolution of culture and style. mr. nelson george, it's good to get a chance to talk with you. i'm just going to let you comment on the fact that jan weiner was not articulate enough to form a - defense for his own to be racist comments. >> i want to preface my remarks by saying all of the artist that he list our great artists. i want to say blue springs a couple weeks ago. that said, the underlying prejudice behind his comments speak to the overall impact of rolling stone over the last 40 years. because rolling store was the, quote unquote, music magazine of the rock era, their influence was very wide. so, radio programmers, tv stations, other magazines,

newspapers, all took a cue from what rolling stone said was hip. so, if your measure of greatness is a white guy with a guitar, a white guy with a guitar that jann wenner likes, more importantly, that means that joni mitchell, that means that marvin gaye, stevie wonder, that means that alternative patti smith, there is a whole range of artists who could've gotten more coverage, but never got the coverage they deserve. i would even say, when you look at what mtv did, they took their cues from rolling stone to some degree, and that defense of what is rock. so, what rolling stone did is take rock from the founders of the music, and make it into white music. and that idea isn't becoming into the entire culture and sort of reframe the history of american culture in a very way. >> --

to not include jimi hendrix, one of the greats, he thinks that the people who derives their arch from somebody like hendricks or the other founders, mick jagger admits to the influence of people like tina turner. he went to see aretha franklin and stood in the back that she did a concert and marveled at her. they even acknowledge, you're right, these are great artist, people like bono, they acknowledge that they took that music that was black music and repurposed it admitted their own. black folk invented it, little richard, if these people invented rock and roll, let me read some of his -- dismissed or contribution, black and the artist, and i apologize wholeheartedly for those remarks. the masters is a collection of interviews i've done over the years that seem to need to best represents an idea of rock and roll's impact on my world, they're not meant to represent the whole of music and this diverse and important retailers, but you reflect the points of my career, interviews i felt illustrated the bread and express not career. my appreciation -- rotating artist music and

ideas. i will celebrate -- okay, that's his response, your thoughts? >> he called it the masters. if he called it my favorite artist, we wouldn't be having the conversation at the same level. we would still be pitched on some level. the masters, come on dude. >> that says irony. the ten white men you called it the masters, and their music is literally lifted, as great as they are, from black people, and he called it the masters. to me, it also tells the story of who is around him. no one in his circle said, we might not want to call this the masters. known in his circle said, that's only ten white guys, there's no >> doesn't is also tell you the story of why they hate dei, but why they need diversity in the room when you're making these decisions. >> from the 70s, 80s, i would argue into the mid 90s, almost no black writers wrote for rolling stone. asian writer with a founding

member, he had many great stories, but, throughout the 80s, all those years, they were very, not that many women, one but almost no black writers. so, when you look back at the era, boston's or kansas or chicago or any group named after a city or state, rock band and rolling stone, but, other brothers johnson, funk, urban fire, they wouldn't have gotten equivalent coverage. so, that's cute because everyone uses rolling stone for a long time as the measure for what's going on. so, the entire history -- >> david bowie viscera mtv that, took them out for that that they weren't putting black artists on. >> so, this kind of criteria that he created means that if you are a sinker, if you're not a singer songwriter, if you are a whitney houston who's an interpreter or --

you don't fit into it. the army, of course, is the articulate question. one of the things i cited in my video that i put up about his response was, an article in history they didn't 83, where they kind of got the history all wrong. you can't tell me that they were in more articulate than chuck d. or ice cube. >> i hear you, i got to go, chris hayes got a show no. thank you, this is tonight's reidout. all in with chris hayes starts now. go chris! h chris hayes starts now. go chris >> so on all in. >> leading by a lot, including obama, i'll tell you what, you take a look at obama and a look at some of the things he's done. >> the entire republican front runner makes his case to remove his judge. tonight, the ever expanding era of the con man, and how donald trump assured it's in. plus, what we learned in jeffrey clark's hearing, the move his case out of