to what this means for democracy. look, when roe v. wade was overturned, we saw the impact immediately. and what we're seeing from donald trump, not necessarily from other republicans but from donald trump, as he's trying to figure out a way to talk to his base and voters that he thinks he's going to need to when another term. but the reality is, i think the biden campaign is doing what they should continue to do. fact-check that, put those outs out there. he's literally making these ads for us, and as we continue to do this, voters will continue to remember the policies and positions as they go into the ballot box. >> alencia johnson and david plouffe, thank you both, i appreciate it. alex wagner tonight starts now. good evening alex. >> i do not know know how you appeal to the hard-line conservative base on abortion, and also trying to recruit people who care about reproductive freedom. i do not understand how it is possible. >> the thing he was able to pull up in 2016 is that people look to the sky and they're like, this guy is not a true

one for banning abortion. and it helped him win an election. >> except now that the republican minority or majority is empowered, there is a very -- you can't just hope that someone isn't a real anti--- >> that ship has sailed. >> well, we'll see. thank, you my front. as always. and thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. one of the recurring characters in donald trump's classified documents indictment, the superseding indictment, that is, is somebody named trump employee number two. that employee gave trump this photo, showing the number of boxes in the mar-a-lago storage room in november of 2021. there were a lot of boxes. then the next month, in december of 2021, trump's ballot walt nada texted this photo to the same trump employee number two. the photo showed documents, including a document clearly marked secret, spilled all over the floor at mar-a-lago.

mr. nauta and employee number two coordinated for months and personally moved several of trump's boxes around the property. now, while nbc news has not independently concern this, the new york times in the washington post and abc news have all identified trump employee number two as his former executive assistant, a woman named emily michael. and abc news reports that when trump heard that the fbi wanted to talk to miss michael last year, trump didn't overtly tell molly michael to live. it wasn't as straightforward as that. instead, trump reportedly told his assistant, molly michael, who he knew a ton about these boxes, he reportedly told her, you don't know anything about the boxes. you don't know anything about those boxes. that kind of mafia like double speak is really helpful, as we try to begin to understand the former presidents defense here. just last week, trump said this

to my colleague, kristen malcolm. >> i want to ask you about the case related to mar-a-lago, a new charge suggests you asked a staffer to delete security for him up footage so it wouldn't get to the hands of investigators today. , let me tell you to >> testify that under oath? testify that? neuro >> it's a fake charge. >> now testifying under oath about whether or not he asked staff to delete security footage does not sound like a good idea for mr. donald trump. we know from the criminal indictment that on june 22nd, 2022, the justice department told trump's lawyers that they were drafting a subpoena for security camera footage from mar-a-lago. and the next day trump at a very 24 minute phone call with mar-a-lago property manager and gentleman called carlos de oliveira. a few days after that de oliveira pulled mar-a-lago's i.t. director into a closet and said again according to the indictment, the boss wanted the

security camera server deleted. but if donald trump did have to testify about that but whether he has to member of his staff to delete security camera footage, what if his little answer to that question is no one of his instruction was more like would be a real shame if something were to happen to that security footage? . but the meeting is pretty clear, and that is the way it seems trump operates. say it but don't actually say it. remember trump's lawyer evan corcoran? after trump got a federal subpoena demanding that heat trump return all the classified documents in his possession, evan corcoran noted in a meeting about the subpoena trump asked him, well what happens if we, what happens if we just don't respond at all or don't play ball with them?

the evan corcoran was set to return a full of classified documents to the fbi, trump didn't even use words. evan corcoran noted at the time that trump made a phony motion as the well, why don't you take them with you to your hotel room if there's anything really bad in there you know, take it out. and that was emotion made. he didn't say that. nothing direct, just hint hint, nudge nudge. former white house aide cassidy hutchinson testified to the house january 6th committee that the lawyers trump set her up with instructed her the less you remember, the better. remember, the less you remember, the better. in 2019, trump's former attorney, fixer michael cohen offered this explanation of trump's penchant for thinly veiled suggestions. >> he doesn't give you questions, he doesn't give you orders he speaks in a code and i understand the code because i've been around him for a decade.

>> you don't know anything about the boxes. the less you remember the better. there is a lot of plausible deniability there, but there is also very clearly a pattern. joining me now, andrew weissmann former fbi general counsel, former senior member of council of mueller's investigation, george conway, lawyer and columnist. thank you both for being here, as i lose my voice steadily throughout the hour. that was our hope. let me first start with you george. it is not subtle what trump strategy here is right? there's a reason the godfather imagery is around us. this is out of a francis ford coppola movie. can it work? >> no, not in this case because there's just too much of it. if you have one of these incidents where he is saying, she's, what if we didn't have these co-op documents to cooperate. maybe alone, that might not be

enough, but you have the movement of the documents, have the direction about destroying the videotape footage. now you have the statement that he made to molly michaels which was pretty close to the basic thing >> you don't know anything -- >> you don't know anything, he knows darn well that there were 59 boxes and the ones that weren't turned over to the government. you've got that, you've got the plucking. court if there's say there's anything bad in their. his lawyer felt compelled to write all of that down. and there is the telling he, was hiding the documents from corcoran so the courtroom wouldn't tell the government. he just doesn't stop. that's why all of this evidence, it all fits together. when we see count 33 of the indictment in the mar-a-lago indictment which is the conspiracy to obstruct, they listed these things a, b, c d, e, f g and.

they got so much. he is dead to rights in all of this. >> george conway as an opinion all this natalie dead to rights is the phrase he used. >> right. >> andrew it seems like a fairly rudimentary strategy. i'm not going to say the words, i'm gonna wink wink, and nudge nudge my way through what could be criminal behavior. i do prosecutors go about proving about what trump's actual intent was? >> that's what juries are for. he basically said to a jury to use your common sense, that there is too many instances. this goes back to what somebody wrote to me about the nelson priest. let's just remember, somebody who is the leader of the free world. and this is basically time when you say to a jury, let's just go up and look at this like an adult. what would a president wants to comply with the law be saying? he would be saying, have we turned everything over?

have we found what to model the right behavior was, and then you go through all the things that he did. i have to say, italy is plausible, i think it's implausible the deniability, and let's just remember it's not going to be denied because donald trump, no matter how many times he says now that he's going to testify to it, i am 100% positive that that is not happening for the same reason that i'm old enough to know he said don't worry, munich come in and talk to you during the mueller investigation. that didn't happen. by the way, it was the right move for him, it would've been awful for him to come in and testify for us. in the same way they would be really bad thing if he went in and testified in any of this cases. >> andrew why do you think we are getting this reporting largely from abc news about molly michael. why are details of her testimony leaking? is this molly michael worried about her own legal peril? >> you know, i doubt that. i assume that that has been

resolved, that she is council and that has been worked out. if she is somebody who is employee to in the indictment, and that is not something that the government has left dangling. that means they are fairly confident that she would be a witness. why it is leaking now? the one thing i'll say, obviously comes from the government, it is correct to say it is like. if it comes from molly michael or some lawyer who knows that, that is not a leak. they are entitled to speak to whoever they want to speak to. they are giving that information, but there is no law, there's no ethics rules that would prevent that. why is it happening now though i don't know. could be a whole variety of reasons but it is happening, and it seems entirely consistent with as george said all the other information in a charge. >> what keeps happening with each one of these nuggets of information that we get, trump

continues to do press, he continues to talk about it, and he continues to dig a hole for himself in terms of his own defense right? it's gonna be just a few minutes before someone asked him about what he's done to -- >> he would be destroyed on a stand in about 30 seconds by any decent cross examiner. he just cannot pull the stuff that you can pull of the town hall or even a one-on-one interview with a good interview or. you just can't pull that stuff. it can't just folded in on some other subjects, you have to answer questions and get pinned down. all these people, every single one of the, they're all lying, this one, that one, when. and you can draw him out. there's one different point many techniques you can use. and the prosecutor after asking those questions can say, so you heard it from him self. everybody is lying except for him. does that make any sense to you? >> ready for cross. >> i just saw like perry mason. >> what is also remarkable and

oppose this to both of you guys is the way in which trump has left, the government hasn't left things hanging, but trump is not things hanging with some of the people who are gonna be critical to his own defense. i have to ask about rudy giuliani, who is being sued by his former lawyer bob costello for one point $4 million. 's new york apartment is up for sale for 6.5 million. he's been ordered to pay $133,000 court ordered legal fees for the women he supposedly allegedly reportedly shames moss and ruby freeman. he's been disbarred, he can't work. this person is someone if you were trump you would want to take care of, and yet he's hanging out to dry. >> it's one add to that, in case that's not a big enough litany, he is under criminal indictment, he is awaiting civil trial in the dominion case just like fox and it's not an allegation with respect to

shea moss and ruby freeman. beryl howell has found liability deservedly and he is awaiting an upcoming imminent trial on damages. and that is one where it is hard to see how a jury wouldn't take that unbelievably seriously given what they went through. it's sort of ties in with trump thing a mob boss, because they have borne the brunt of that kind of defamation from the former presidents. >> but doesn't amal bostic the lesson that when your underlying, when the screws are tightening, you keep your couples close to the vest right? >> he's trying to raise money for him, $1 million to a guys in the hole for to the tune of multiple nadler's, with more expenses to come for an unindicted coconspirator in a case, in a codefendant in the georgia case. >> here is a trick.

first of all those to. things >> what is the trick? >> you are the mob boss. you are the one thing. 0.2 is you have caused everyone to join everyone in the conspiracies of every machismo duration as you do. it's went 20 sentence someone, you want to become a made man, and so tony sends out some >> tony soprano? >> tony sense christopher to put out the hit on the cop remember that? it's exactly the same thing. once you do his bidding, you are you owe him, because he did everything he did. and it's amazing. but the third is there's trump's absolute stupidity, because there is nobody other than donald trump who is more responsible for the two impeachments that rudy giuliani. you would think he would've learned his lesson about dealing with rudy, but he can't help himself. it boggles the mind.

i understand rudy giuliani is quite literally implicated in all of this and yet he is so sentient to the case. do you think jen ellis, another trump lawyer calls trump milligan i'm likely narcissist this weekend cannot vote for him. he's losing his foot soldiers in this alleged conspiracy. >> that is the brazil brilliance of the fani willis indictment. this is what happens, it focuses the mind to be facing charges. there is no more deniability where you think that maybe i'm going to escape the fact he might be named as one of the unindicted coconspirators by jack smith everybody can read into that that's just a matter of time before they become indicted coconspirators serves so they would be facing federal and state crimes. there's a lot of pressure also to people to cooperate. but one thing. that is clear tonight, that is that neither prosecutor needs people so in many ways their window for doing this is not

over but it's not the ideal time. >> you think that rudy giuliani might not be as of interest to the prosecution at this point in terms of cooperating with them? >> reminds me a lot in special counsel mueller's investigation there were people that we didn't need to have as cooperators but we wanted the information. so paul manafort after he blew the trial and he offered to cooperate and we had a lot of suspicions that wouldn't be real but the reason we went forward is that you have to plead to every single thing they did. but we wanted the information because it was so important to the country to know what he knew he was going to be truthful. so, i could see jack smith and fani willis thinking that if he's going to be truthful, there is information there that is important. >> but he's useless as a witness because he said so many things, you can't count the

number of ridiculous and stupid and false things that rudy giuliani has said over the years. >> we're gonna try george, over the next course of the next several months. i'm an records saying we're gonna try to do that. it will rolls the dice. it's been a theatrical block between my voice problems in perry mason here. gentlemen, thank you very much. he andrew weissmann, we don't even say the co-host of the independents defensible msnbc broadcasts, prosecuting donald trump, it's delighted pleasure to have you with us sir. and george, we're not done with you yet. hang out for one more segment. we have a lot to get to this evening including the detroit auto workers rally that donald trump is conveniently scheduled to counter program next week's second republican debate. but first, there are a lot of things that people accidentally may be changing cables in public restaurants. could be pacifier, spare diapers, i have myself put on one, but one reporter today

said he found something altogether different in a bathroom inside the u.s. capitol and speaker kevin mccarthy's fate may hang on it. we'll explain, coming up next. ain, coming up next. new dove men bodywash gives you 24 hours of nourishing micromoisture. that means your skin still feels healthy and smooth now... now... ...and now too. get healthier, smoother feeling skin all day.

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mccarthy works to manage the utter chaos of the house republican conference, independent journalist matt glaslyn said he found something very interesting today on one of the baby changing tables in a rescue in the u.s. capital. he found a document and it reads resolve that the office of the speaker of the house of representatives is hereby declared to be vacant. that is correct. it appears, it's hard for me to even describe this without even

laughing. it seems like somebody left a draft resolution to boot kevin mccarthy from his speakership. it appears that they left that draft on a baby changing table, and it quite literally has congressman matt gaetz's name all over it. now nbc news has not verified whether congressman gaetz has drafted such a motion, but it sure seems on brand doesn't? back with me's lawyer and columnist george conway. george, this is too cute by half to leave a motion to vacate on the baby changing table. let everybody work their minds through. that >> it's theater of the absurd, but i want to talk about theaters. >> i don't know whether was done on purpose but for this to come up at this particular moment when kevin mccarthy is having one of the worst weeks of his entire political career and may just get worst, it just doesn't seem like a coincidence? >> it doesn't make any sense. why are you carrying that

around? doesn't like it has to be six words long. so why are you carrying it around? move a calm here in there, i can't imagine that. but it's not like it's a big secret though. they've been threatening to do this basically from day one. >> that's not the horse's head in the bed to continue with the mob metaphors. but do you think, to you think we are inevitably heading towards kevin mccarthy being ousted at this point? >> i have no idea. all i can tell you is that nobody cares about governing, they just do not care. and it's all about competing for attention. that's why they're going to have such trouble maintaining a majority. they don't really care, these people from these districts where they're gonna win no matter what, like mtg and so on, they don't care about governing. why do they need to be in the

majority? they just want chaos and they are going to get. it >> if you were a democrat in the house, what is the calculation here? democrats can also raise a motion to vacate. none of suggested that they would. is kevin mccarthy their best option for someone who seems vaguely tethered to the notion of index institutional functionality? >> my attitude is if i were a democrat is the old political adage of when your opponents are basically hanging themselves, they're doing themselves harm, just get out of the way. and that's basically i think what they have been doing. i'll have to do is poynette look at this dysfunction. >> that said, there is a government shutdown looming. all it is distinctly bad politics for republicans, democrats would like to see the government function. >> yes and i think the only way can do that is, they'd have to work out some sort of deal with a lot of republicans. the real problem is that speaker mccarthy can't play any

role in that because he will lose his job. he's in a complete box. i don't know whether -- but the problem from a republican standpoint is if you cooperate in any way, you get some think that is useful from your position as a republican. and they got something for their troubles and gave something up to the democrats, there is going to be a significant portion of the republican base that says use you are collaborating with the enemy. that they are just not capable of governing, they have no desire of governing. that is basically their appeal to a large swath of republican electorate, is that they don't want governance. they just want destruction. >> you have been warning raising the alarm bells about what is happening inside the republican party for a long time now. what is unfolding right now, between donald trump being the presumptive nominee for a party facing 91 felony counts, the republican party in congress

being effectively nonfunctional, being completely non interested in governing. is this the nightmare, is this worse than what you can see? >> i concede in 2018 i, registered as an independent in march, 2018, and i stated reasoning for doing that then was that i thought the republican party had become a personality cult. it was nothing in 2018 compared to 2023. i could not have conceived, i did come to the conclusion that donald trump was a criminal and a the cinemas criminal, but the notion that he would be charged with these documents, foment an insurrection, that he would do all the things that we now know that he did, even i couldn't conceive of that. i thought he committed obstruction. and drew weisman here, than 300 page volume about all victims obstruction he committed. i thought the ukraine scandal was extortion and attempt to

solicit a bribe. i thought that was chargeable as well. but i didn't think -- i didn't think he would try to overthrow american democracy altogether on once the way he did. i thought it would just to undermine it bit by bit by bit. >> and effectively find many versions of insurrectionists in the hall of congress. george conway, scary thing when we have exceeded even your darkest imaginations. other what the republican party might become. thank you for joining need to conjure this dystopian analysis of. this >> there's more to come. >> i'm sure you're right. thank you for your time sir. we have a lot more up tonight including the political fallout from the uaw followed and what it means for both joe biden and donald trump. white house press secretary kareen jean-pierre will join me right here in the studio when we come back. stay with us. stay with us type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight.

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trump is planning to skip the second republican debate next week and will instead hold a rally in detroit to court striking auto workers. this is not a new gambit. in 2016, trump who as a reminder has always been an ultra wealthy coastal elite, branded himself as a champion of blue-collar union workers helping him win support in key swing states like michigan and ohio where the union workers are. here is at a campaign rally in michigan in 2016. >> i've been talking about michigan for a long time. we can't let them take your car industry out or your industry out of your state any longer. it's not gonna happen. >> and so now trump wants to run that play again. he wants to show the union workers that he is their man. except president trump spent four years in office distinguishing himself as the most anti union president of the last three decades.

he appointed eugene scalia one of the nation's top anti union lawyers to be his secretary of labor. under trump's administration, a national labor relations board implemented sweeping new rules that made it harder for workers to form unions, rules by the way that joe biden reversed when he took office. trump packed the courts with anti labor judges, people like thomas far, he spent his career bringing cases before the courts to weaken unions. president trump made it harder for workers to earn overtime and he got a defender agency in charge of workplace safety. now by contrast, president biden has pushed it steadily pro labor agenda since taking office. his voice support for striking autoworkers demands, he's met with workers unionizing big businesses including out his own starbucks, and even as republicans continue to block president biden's candidate for a century of labor, the biden administration as needed to

dramatically expand union rights through his appointees at the labor relations board. but now looking for an opening with a key demographic in key swing states, the trump team is trying to use biden's push for things like electric vehicles to drive a wedge between biden and the unions that have supported him. is it going to work? all we know is that this strike could end up deciding a lot. joe biden won michigan by less than three percentage points. he won in pennsylvania by just over a single point. i'm gonna ask white house press secretary karine jean-pierre about that all that and much more coming up next. coming up next.

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biktarvy can go with you. talk to your healthcare provider today. united auto workers strike is entering a sixth day and as nick oceans fela make more meaningful progress by friday the extract will likely extend on beyond where the workers have walked off the job. donald trump is heading to michigan next week to court made in the same union votes while the white house is trying to balance union support with potential fallout from an extended strike. joining me now is white house press secretary karine jean-pierre. it is a pleasure to see. >> thank you so much for having me. >> thank you for taking a little bit of time of year extraordinarily busy week. we will talk about why the president -- but first i want to ask you about this strike because i am watching it unfold. first of all, spent the last week outlining the ways this

administration's been decidely prone union, a yet there is the reality that union workers, rank-and-file workers, you are seeing a lot of them pretty disillusioned but with with the democratic party. want to read a quote. this is from political reporting. democrats were for the working party people. that is changed. i'll tell you what, the democratic party was not what it was 2030 years ago. 2030 years ago they were signing nafta so we won't get into that. what to do about this perception and what is at the root of it? >> we have to just keep talking about. you did a fantastic job laying out what the president has done, really undoing a lot of the damage that the last administration did when they were not pro union, when they were not about the workers. and so here's the thing, and the president talks about this every time we talk about the economy, every time we talk about these types of issues, about how much he has been for unions, how he is a pro union guy, how he believes that we have to continue to build an

economy that really puts workers in the middle. the middle class city, unions built the middle class which is incredibly true. he's been saying that for years. but here's the thing, if you look at the last two years, you can see how collective bargaining has really played a role here. you saw that with the westport situation. you saw that with uaw, i'm sorry the u.p.s. in teamsters. and so, he is going to continue to say that and continue to be incredibly forceful about about how it is important that they have a collective bargaining, how they have the right to strike. the president has been talking about that for sometime now. now look, we are going to continue to do that, the president is going to continue to do the work, and if you think about just the policies that he has passed in the legislation that has gone through that is now law and how it puts workers at the center of this, when it make sure that we are creating good paying jobs, union paying jobs, because it is incredibly important to continue to do

that. and the president speaks from experience when he talks about that. >> and i get the things that have been done and i think that there is a weird look oona about what is reality. but do you need to change the messaging? should president biden go to the picket lines? should he walk with the striking workers? >> so look, what he's gonna do with it that relates to uiw's he's gonna basically continue to say hey, we support the unions. we believe that when companies make record profits, so this contract should be a record contract for uaw. he's gonna say they're the right to have collective bargaining, they're the right to strike. and there is going to let them give them the opportunity to continue to negotiate. it is up to them to negotiate. we will engage, we will assist in any way that we can but we will have to give them the space to have those conversations and that where the president is and that's basically what he said not too long ago.

>> are you guys worried at all about the way trump and republicans are trying to find a wedge to drive between the president and workers over the president question over elective eagles and his agenda? >> i'm glad you asked that question. the last administration, president trump and again be careful not to talk about this election 2024. we're not gonna talk about that. and when it is >> an administration official the cares about that! >> shocker but what i can say is when you look at the ev future, the last administration seeded that to our competitors. he ceded that to china, and the president did everything he can to move forward with legislation, with his policy to make sure that we focus on and ev future makes us competitive. and not only that, builds in america, made in america. that's one thing we've continued to say that we have to bring back those

manufacturing jobs. when we think about the ev future, that is what we are going to do. we are going to able to make that america, that's what matters. so we can be competitive as a country. >> when you talk about evs, that's obviously a huge part of the presidents climate agenda, this administration cares about climate change, acknowledges that it's real, and yet it can't be one country pushing forward. a capital of countries. needs literally needs to be the entire globe. is the u.n. the right form anymore for global initiatives. >> as you know -- >> for those who don't, know the un general assembly there's one -- and one loser. >> it still the world stage. you saw the president this morning. he laid out how he sees the future of this country moving forward and it is working with our partners, working with our allies. one of the things he talked about is how it's important to make sure that we secure, we

are more secure, more prosperous, not just for us as americans but for the world. that's how we're going to move forward. he talked about how climate is an existential threat, we see the extreme with weather, you think about the flooding and the heat, that's not just here but that is globally. that is why the inflation reduction act which is the biggest investment in climate change to deal with the climate crisis is so important. and so the president is going to continue to move forward in that way. he talked about that, you talked about russia's aggression, how russia things were going to be weary and we will leave ukraine in just forget about it. that's not something we are going to do. i was in the hall when the president gave those remarks. when he said that continuing to make sure we give ukraine the support that they need so they can beat back russia, so they can fight for the freedom, fight for their democracy. you heard that room just clap and really react to the president's comments.

and so that is the world stage that the president stands on. let's not forget, he has changed the perception of america in the last two years and what we saw in the last administration to make sure that we continue to be leaders and that's what has been important this week to continue to have those conversations. >> now just needs to get republicans in the same room clapping for support for ukraine. >> look, we have seen bipartisan support for the financial security support, financial support that we have been able to give ukraine. we've seen that been incredibly repressive, continue to have those conversations. it's important to do so, it's not just us it's our allies and partners. because we've been able to do that, ukraine on the ground, we've seen them fight very bravely, they've been able to have successes on the battlefield. we have to be there for as long as it takes. >> mitch mcconnell and our nation turns a slowly eyes to you. white house press secretary karine jean-pierre, truly one of the busiest people in this

nation. i'm so appreciative of you taking a few minutes to visit us. thanks for your time. we have one more story for you this evening. supreme court justice brett kavanaugh send a not see right wing message to not see activists. what is really going on and the scenes over one of the most important civil rights laws and of our time? that is next. e? that is next [sniffs] still fresh. still fresh! get 6 times longer-lasting freshness, plus odor protection with downy unstopables. ♪♪ we're not writers, but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets.

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yes! [ cheers ] yeah! woho! running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into so we have some new bombshell when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. reporting from an investigative journalist and alabama that helps explain something that was previously kind of inexplicable. earlier this year, alabama republicans decided to defy a direct order from the supreme court to change their racially gerrymandered congressional maps, ones that were in direct violation of the voting rights act. according to the alabama political reporter, that's the outlet, as alabama try to redraw their congressional maps, they got intelligence and

justice brett kavanaugh who had originally voted against those gerrymandering laws, they got intelligence that justice kavanaugh was open to re-hearing the republicans case under a different different legal theory. lo and behold, just last week alabama republicans petitioned the court for the re-hearing. and now the alabama political report is adding to its reporting with revelations of a decision to defy the court in the first place which by nationally connected political operatives at the center of the well-documented right-wing effort to overturn the -- established by the 1965 voting rights act right. goes on between alabama republicans, justice kavanaugh and a web of dark money groups connected by conservative activists leonard leo. joining me this volume, i hope it's gonna talk more than i am, senior editor of the amicus

podcast as well as the author of the book, lady justice which is out in paperback today. i'm just gonna wave it around today and stop talking. delia, first talk to me a little bit about what seems to be happening with conservative activists taking whack wink, nudge nudge from the supreme court justice? saying come back with the same case in a different fashion otherwise over one of a better term. >> this is in over under any other guys nullification. this is what happened when southern states said we are just not going to comply. you would think any of the nine justices on the supreme court would be horrified when a state simply says, you wrote in allen versus milligan, the ink is not dry, said create another majority black district. new maps, this is what it looks like, go back and know, says alabama, they said no, and the

reason is. he either of these theories are horrifying right. alex one of the theories that they have intel, because one third of the alabama legislature is in bed with leonard leo that's awful. the other possibility is they don't care, and that's almost worse right? that they are just going to take this course back to the supreme court under the theory that brett kavanaugh is really into a recording opinion we think we can flip them this time. >> it seems like for those of us who are expecting bad for civil rights ruling on affirmative action and were given exactly that bad ruling, the anna alabama ruling was a look surprised, the court isn't denying our country's racist history in the way we thought it would. it now seems that affirmative action ruling may be of use to people who want to get rid effectively of the ruling the supreme court made in alabama.

can you explain that better than i have? >> you have exactly nailed it. justice kavanaugh's theory in both cases is that there is -- remediation of centuries of civil rights abuses is like milk and it has a shelf life. in the affirmative action cases, he won on that theory. that's what the court said. he said being, your pop-tart is done and we can't use affirmative action anymore. it almost makes more sense for him to square the circle and say the same thing, that's the theory, neither briefed nor argued in the alabama gerrymandering case, that's the theory he pops in the concurrence is like, oh i think section two of the voting rights act also has a thing shelf life date and, come back to me and let's see when it happens. i'll just keep sniffing the milk. >> come back to meet two minutes later. it just issued this opinion.

they are petitioning to get this case back on the docket. is it going to happen? >> it's been hustled back to the court on emergency basis. we may find out a better sooner rather than not. mark joseph stern and i wrote a article today. justice clarence thomas used to do this trick. he drop a footnote or write in a dissent, well you know it's 1997 i sure hope someone brings a case making the claim that the second amendment isn't invade individual right. and then years later, that case is bright, brought before the court in the court changes the law. now that timeframe is so pancaked he can have justice kavanaugh right, hi, i'm just gonna kind of wink at you and bring it back under this theory and then in three months, i might change my mind, so what is astounding is not just the

defiance and certainty shown by the alabama legislature, it is that we are now in a climate where this conservative super majority, six justices on the court, can literally signal to the country, to judges around the country in legislatures around the country, we are in the bag for you, just bring us a little bit better thing. >> it's unbelievable, the transparency, and i say corruption, because the other thing the alabama reporter, alabama political reporter, the outlet that we cited the beginning of this block, is that they establish a web of connections between the justices and we have long known leonard leo is kind of this finn galley of this court, but conservative donors, people are on the payroll, jenny thomas. it is to elaborate for me to go into into the remaining minutes of television that we have, but the relationship between dark conservative dark money and the justices on the supreme court is not hard to trace.

and in this particular case, it seems like that is very much at the root of how these justices send out their smoke signals, and how the lawmakers and the lawyers on the other and understand them, and read the smoke signals to begin with. >> that's what, sean glad you said, that that's why this particular incident is so telling. we tend to completely vibrate the supreme court coverage. we cover the cases, we cover the docket, on one was a chevron top it is in the overall this time. then we cover the corruption and the scandals and the pay to play. this illuminates that they are the same story. it's the same story that the pay to play guys who are all involved with leonard leo was involved in efforts to suppress the vote, they are now paying to play the game of managing the docket itself, of doctrine itself. it's one story and we have to start treating it like one like it is. >> devastating a deeply distressing. it's truly no better person to talk to especial o