richard, very quickly, do you think the president zelenskyy mentions this week from the u.n. and now goes to washington that will move republicans at all? >> no. i think he'll be in some ways a casualty of the gridlock to use the word again in washington over budgets. but, no, i don't think he changed the international debate about ukraine or the u.s. domestic debate unfortunately about ukraine. >> richard haass, terrific analysis as always. we appreciate it. thank you to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. i think all of you know i'm not a fan of government shutdowns. i've seen a few over the years. they never have produced a policy change. and they've always been a loser for republicans politically. >> senate minority leader mitch mcconnell with that warning for house republicans. mika, it's what we said yesterday here. i have been through government shutdown or two.

>> yes, you have. >> you never get what you want, first of all. because it's a democracy. right? but secondly, it always cuts against republicans in favor. it always hurts republicans at the end of the day. it did for us. it did for the other government shutdown. so i think that's why we're now seeing house republicans looking at the clown caucus as people are starting to call them and the republican party say, listen, where are they going to get this done with you guys? are we going to work with the democrats to get it done. >> house speaker kevin mccarthy is struggling to round up the votes to avoid a government shutdown and faces an uphill battle to unite his party. meanwhile, house republicans set a date for their impeachment inquiry into president biden. we'll have new details on that effort and, quote, i am not the

president's lawyer. >> you see, actually merrick garland has to explain that to trump republicans because trump republicans actually thought that barr and the rest of those attorneys were trump's personal attorney. >> attorney general merrick garland is expected to speak those words this morning when he faces republicans on the hill who accuse him of weaponizing the justice department. nbc's ken dilanian is standing by with a first look at garland's testimony. >> i think that's precious, willie. i think it's precious they're talking about weaponizing the justice department when they get behind and still are behind the guy who went to his attorney general two weeks before the presidential election in 2020 and demanded that bill barr arrest joe biden and joe biden's family. >> yep. >> two weeks before the presidential election. and when he didn't it was the

beginning of the end for barr. >> yeah. this is an annual hearing that merrick garland, the attorney general, will go before the judiciary committee. usually it's oversight, routine thing. but we know what this is going to be. we know they'll sit and ask him about hunter biden the appointment of the special counsel, which by the way, the attorney general garland did to separate himself to sort of disabuse hopefully those republicans of any appearance that he was running this on behalf of joe biden. he appoints a special counsel who is a trump-appointed u.s. attorney on and on it goes, trying to do the right thing to show this group of republicans that, yes, there is a wall between the executive branch and the judicial branch. i have a sneaking suspicious this will not suffice for this members who yell at the attorney general of the united states and grand stand. >> they're yelling to appoint a special counsel. he appoints a special counsel and they yell that he appointed a special counsel to delay

things. it's exhausting. it's wednesday, september 20th, welcome to "morning joe." we have the host of "way too early" jonathan lemire. attorney and contributing columnist at "the washington post," george conway is with us this morning. and congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie el mayny, an msnbc contributor. good to have you all on board this morning. so jonathan lemire, should i ask the red sox win last night? >> when i went to bed they were winning. when i woke up this morning, they had lost. so -- >> go team. >> why did you ask? >> that's our boys, joe. those are our boys. >> well, i think you just neatly summed up -- i'm serious, our entire season. >> yeah. >> good hitting. go to the bull pen, lose games. >> the 2023 red sox.

>> yeah. i guess we start -- >> all right. you guys can commiserate. i'll give you more to commiserate about. house republicans continue to fight amongst themselves over two critical bills to fund the military and full government. on the government funding front, a vote planned for yesterday was scrapped after roughly a dozen republicans said they would not support it. and some freedom caucus members are threatening to oust speaker kevin mccarthy if their demands are not met. they are very important. >> blah blah blah, you're so important. why don't you try it. >> 11 days left before government funding expires and a full shutwn begins regarding the military spending bill, five republicans joined all democrats to kill a vote just to debate the defense funding measure. all five cited spending as their main reason for voting no. house speaker kevin mccarthy and some republican members who

represent biden won districts aired their frustrations yesterday. >> you're asking me a lot of questions -- >> coming backwards, please. >> why are they voting against being -- think about what they're voting against. they're voting against even bringing the bill up to have a discussion to vote about it. vote against the bill at the end. 170 amendments. change it if you don't like. >> i'm disappointed. i am pissed off. our inability to bring this package to a floor vote because of these five individuals who decided to put their personal agendas ahead of the basic requirements of our troops is extremely upsetting to us. it is a bad look to not be able to get a rule through the floor. when you do that, what you've effectively done hand the kees of the majority over to the minority. >> not conservative

republicanism. this is stupidity. the idea that we're going to shut the government down when we don't control the senate, we don't control the white house, these people can't define a win. they don't know how to take yes for an answer. it's a clown show. you keep running lunatics, you're going to be in this position. >> amen. >> don't know how to take yes for an answer. >> and again, you see this once in a while. i'll tell you when i was in congress, we were blessed to actually have people who wanted to balance the budget. so we balance the budget four years in a row. only time it's happened in a century. here, though, george conway, this is -- this is -- unlike that group that balanced the budget, paid down the debt, did a lot of other things, this group doesn't really care. >> absolutely. >> about balancing budget. they don't really care about policy. they have shown us that time and time again. it's all gesturing. >> right. >> so we're going to try to shut down the government.

why? just because we want to gesture. we want to gesture to somebody. we really don't care about policy. we don't care about balancing the budgets. we don't care about the troops. we don't care about military readiness. so we're going to shut down the government. we're not going to even bring -- >> we're going to say no. >> we're not even going to bring the bill up, the funding bill up for a vote. we won't let it go to the floor. meanwhile on the senate, you have tommy tubervillle and the senators doing everything they can to gut military readiness, too. what a long, long distance there is between the republicans we were and what we have now in the age of trump. >> absolutely. these guys don't care about anything other than just getting on tv and being able to perform. and you know, have people send them money and contributions and to get air time. and they clearly don't have any policy positions that matter to them because if they were trying

to do that, they would try to work towards some compromise where they would get some of what they want, even though it's not possible to get all of it. it's all about performance. it's all about -- they don't even care about having a majority. they're willing to sacrifice those moderate republicans that you just showed on air here, that they're willing to basically jettison them because who needs them? they don't need a majority any way because they're not governing. all they want to do is throw sand in the gears. if the car keeps on going, oh, it's a terrible car. it's a terrible car any ways. so they just nihilists. >> jackie, we should point out all the voices you heard critical of the republicans were republican voices as george said, moderates like mike lawler in new york, a swing district, who won narrowly will have a tough race ahead next year as well. we should also point out that these votes that were thwarted by this small group of republicans yesterday are just procedural votes, just votes to open debate. these aren't even the big votes.

so how is kevin mccarthy, how is the speaker clearly frustrated there, how does he clear this hurdle with such a narrow majority in the house? >> it's a really good question, willie. and i think the fact that these procedural votes fail obviously does not bode well for mccarthy who is only a week and a half away from a potential government shutdown. he needs to get this resolved by october 1st. there are several lawmakers who said they would be open to passing a continuing resolution if mccarthy actually promised a $1.47 billion top line discretionary spending for all of these various appropriations bills. there's 11 left that need to be hashed out, but these handful of lawmakers who have continued to vote against these initial appropriation bills have said they haven't heard that from mccarthy. they haven't heard his -- him following through on his promise to cut the budget at the end of the day. but, you know, there are still

this thought that even if mccarthy does agree to -- willingly continues to be held hostage to this small vocal minority who are willing to cut -- shut down the government, people like andy biggs yesterday who told me that his constituents realize that there was a difference between a government shutdown and a government pause. and that his constituents care more about cutting the budget than they did about allowing the government to keep running. there are several members who are going to vote no no matter what, which puts mccarthy in untenable situation, which is why i think that there is concern growing especially amongst mccarthy's allies that the only outcome and option ahead here is that motion to vacate the speaker for mccarthy potentially to lose his job is really the process that's unfolding at the moment. >> so i think it's important that we all just stop for one

second here and remind each other this is a clown show. and these clowns, along with donald trump, over donald trump's four years in the white house, spent more money over four years than any congress ever spent in the history of this country or any other country. they accumulated 8 trillion -- these people who are now saying we're going to go to the barricades and shut down the government because he won't cut spending. these are the people that wer part of donald trump adding 8.2 trillion dollars to the national debt over four years, over four years. reagan only 1.86 trillion over

eight years. bush 1.55 trillion over four years. trump over four s, jonathan lemire, contributed me to the national debt than the first 42 presidents combined through 2000, those 42 presidents accumulated less debt than donald trump and these same republicans, these same republicans time and time again -- by the way, i'm just going to repeat it again. it's not like we didn't warn them. it's not like i wasn't tweeting something out every other day. it's not like i wasn't going to the hill talking to them. it's not like we weren't saying, here, they need to stop being reckless. they can't be conservative only when a democrat is in the white house. but a democrat is in the white house, so suddenly they've remembered that they like balanced budgets.

it's just an absolute -- an absolute joke. and the fact is kevin mccarthy doesn't need these clowns. he can just work with the democrats because that's what the republican moderate said yesterday in the republican caucus meeting. saying to the clowns, hey, if you guys want to shut down the government, so you can raise more money on social media. that's what this is about. they don't give a damn if they have a majority next year or not. in fact, if they don't have a majority, they can be even crazier on social media, even crazier on the house floor and raise more money. you look at the craziest people in the house republican caucus that are destroying their chances of a majority right now, they're the people who make more money in the minority because they can say crazier things on the house floor and on social media. that's all this is about. gesturing for money.

>> yep. it's predictable republican hypocrisy when it comes to spending and the note. we should note 8.2 trillion there for donald trump and only a portion of that is pandemic spending and president biden, even factoring the pandemic spending of his administration well behind trump's pace. and this, of course, was a deal on expanding the debt ceiling deal that was struck earlier this year and we have seen these hard-right republicans decide to make that the hill they're going to die on. that that's their reason for this anger. so they can indeed appear on podcasts, put out campaign ads, raise money. to your point, yes, when you're in the minority, you get to have a bigger flame thrower. maybe they're thinking about that for next year. but we're now just days away from a government shutdown. the white house is preparing like this is going to happen. they have all along suspected that there would be some sort of brinksmanship here. they wondered if mccarthy offering an impeachment inquiry to the far right, that might be enough to get their votes here. that's clearly not the case. impeachment inquiry is moving forward and these right wingers

have not moved off their demands at all. the white house is fairly confident that the political blowback here will fall pretty squarely on the republicans. they'll take the blame, they'll be viewed as the clown party, held responsible for a government shutdown, even just a brief one. there's anxiety. it could rattle voters, who are already feeling anxious about the economy, could play into those concerns. so that's worry for a president seeking re-election when the strength of the economy is always paramount. >> federal employees get furloughed. george, when you look at this group of five holding all this up, ralph norman is one of them, this is a lot of these guys the insurrection crowd as well. remember he texted mark meadows and said martial law. have the president invoke martial law. to joe's point, ralph norman says this brings me no joy to have to do this. i'm not going to stand by and watch us have run away government spending as he participated four years prior in

run away government spending. >> no, it's just amazing. donald trump raised -- increased the federal debt by the same -- by t amount that obama raised it for eight years. eight years, really, twice the fund. it's just incredible. >> but wait, there's more. just two days before a possible government shutdown, house republicans plan to hold the first hearing on an impeachment inquiry into president joe biden. a week from tomorrow, house oversight committee spokesperson says the panel will discuss, quote, constitutional and legal questions surrounding the president's involvement in corruption and abuse of public office. committee chair james comer intends to issue a subpoena -- >> i hope we find something. i hope we do. i wonder if he's going to bring around the pig to the

ceremonies. >> he intends to issue a subpoena as early as this week for the bank records of president biden's son and brother. so far, republicans have presented no evidence showing any wrong doing by the president. >> nothing, nothing. "wall street journal" editorial page even said that. >> so, in a statement yest the white house blasted the planned hearing, writing that publicans, quote, baseless personal attacks on president biden are more important than preventing a government shutdown and the pain it would inflict on american families. if you take the quote of what they plan to do, you literally could apply it to donald trump 1,000 times over, which makes the hypocrisy even worse because this is actually -- you could apply it to trump. this you can apply to people around biden, but you can't apply it to the president, but they do. they just have to do it. as we mentioned, attorney general merrick garland will testify before the house judiciary committee today.

the republican-led committee is expected to grill the attorney general at the hearing entitled oversight of the u.s. department of justice. it is scheduled to start this morning at 10:00 a.m. garland is expected to stress doj's objectivity, despite the gop's impeachment inquiry and anger over the special counsel's probe of hunter biden, an excerpt of e attorney general's opening statement reads in part, quote, our job is not to take orders from the president, from congress, or from anyone else, aboutho or what to criminally investigate. as the president himself h said, and i reaffirm here today, im not the president's lawyer. i will also add that i am not congress's prosecutor. the justice department works for the american people. >> how shocking that must be to donald trump and his supporters in congress. >> well, they still don't get it.

let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian who is following this. what more can we expect today? >> good morning, mika and joe. yeah, these are some of merrick garland's most aggressive comments yet, pushing back the idea that his justice department is -- he's a former federal judge. they've been working on this for weeks over at the justice department prepping him for this hearing because they do take it seriously. to them, this is a big lie, equivalent to the notion that the 2020 election was stolen. the idea that somehow there are political operatives over at the justice department pulling the strings and orchestrating these investigations of donald trump or going easy on hunter biden, there's just no evidence to support that. and in fact, you know, merrick garland has appointed special counsels to the chagrin of the white house. in fact, a lot of people joke over the doj political

appointees they won't ever be working for the biden administration. there's a bit of gal low's humor for any other part of the biden administration. but in addition to pushing back on that notion, merrick garland also plans to talk specifically about the kind of rhetoric that house republicans have been using, which he and others believe is dangerous because there have been threats. we have reported on this, to individual members of the justice department and the fbi, lying fbi agents, families have been threatened, they have had to get security protection. he says, look, all of us at the doj, the work comes with oversight. singling out individual career public servants just doing their job he's going to say is dangerous, particularly at a time of increased threats to the safety of public servants and their families. and he goes on to say or will say, we will not be intimidated. we'll do our jobs free from outside interference and we will

not back down from defending our democracy. so this is something they worked on. they have given considerable thought here. they decided it's time for the attorney general to push back against these bogus republican charges and this environment that's really creating dangers to their own employees, guys. >> well, and of course, after the mar-a-lago search, you actually had reports of trump and his allies trying to get the names of the fbi agents to put them under pressure. jackie, i've got to say, this all has to be a real shock to donald trump who went around telling everybody the department of justice was his department of justice. that he had control over the department of justice. and he thought that barr was his lawyer. of course barr, often acted like he was donald trump's lawyer. so, garland's comments, though very normal to anybody else that's ever sat in the white

house, must be a shock to donald trump and trump supporters because trump really did believe that the department of justice should act under his direction and arrest his political opponents. >> yeah, joe. and garland sought to be the anti-barr. a lot of his allies even will say that that has come to a detriment of his job performance, that his, ambition to distance himself and to be a-political as possible has hurt some of his investigations and some of the justice department moral at a time when the justice department is clearly under assault from -- in an active bid by trump and the house gop conference and the republican party. you'll hear democrats try to re-enforce this idea that david weiss was a trump-appointed u.s. attorney. he was someone who was barr's guy. he was expected to investigate

hunter biden very aggressively. that investigation lasted three to biden obviously, that plea deal fell apart. and you're going to see, i think, merrick garland show that he tried to keep his arms length as possible from this, which again some of his allies will say that that potentially caused some confusion in terms of the communication between him and weiss and the authority he was given. but the bottom line that you're going to hear from democrats and from merrick garland as well is that david weiss did have full authority to pursue whatever charges he wanted. and obviously still does as we have seen an indictment was released last week from him indicting hunter biden on felony charges. but this -- i want to underscore what ken said about rhetoric here and sort of what this does to the line attorneys, line agents and investigators, all of the civil services and the people who make the justice

department run everyday, this is something that has come through in a lot of transcripts that we recently seen from people who have been disputing a lot of the whistleblower accounts, the irs whistleblower accounts in particular from gary shaply and joseph sooeg ler, these two people who really were sort of the cause of a lot of skepticism of the now special counsel david weiss to begin with, but this fear that people are unable to do their jobs because of the threat environment and the rhetoric from republicans. you're going to see merrick garland, i think, really try to defend his rank and file today. >> so ken, it sounds like merrick garland will be one part high school civics lesson, telling the panel of republicans this isn't how it works. i'm not an attorney for president biden. another part defense of the justice department. jackie just mentioned gary shackly, the irs investigators who testified he was told to slow walk the investigation, he

couldn't go too far because it was the president's son. fbi agents said no that's not the way that was communicated to us. and importantly, mr. weiss himself, the special counsel, the trump-appointed u.s. attorney said, no, that didn't happen actually. but, we can expect that to be a big focus of republicans on the committee yesterday. >> that's right, willie. >> go ahead, go ahead, ken. >> to be clear, look, the irs agents who have come forward are credible figures. they're not like those previous fbi alleged fbi whistleblowers that this committee brought forward who had all kinds of problems in their past. these are real investigators who have come forward with credible allegations that the case, the investigation of hunter biden, wasn't handled the way they wish it had been. by the way, that happens in almost every federal investigation if you talk to people. prosecutors and agents get in disputes. what we have seen, as you said, fbi agents have come forward who are also working on the case and told the committee that, no,

they didn't see any political interference. they didn't see anything inappropriate by weiss. just to underscore what jackie said, their names have been seized upon by the very republicans who were interviewing them in transcribed interviews and put out and have been the subject of threats. one of the prosecutors in the hunter biden matter, i'm not going to name her again because she has been the subject of threats, had to go to the u.s. marshals to seek security protection because her name was put out as someone who went easy supposedly on hunter biden. so this is -- so, not only is there really no evidence to support the idea at the end of the day that there was political interference in hunter biden investigation, those very charges are causing danger to line employees at the fbi and justice department. >> so george, on a related matter, let's talk about the criminal investigations into hunter biden right now. just get your analysis of the charges that have been filed.

some suggestion that some sort of tax charge could still come. there's been hints from republicans that maybe something on foreign lobbying as well we should stress none of that has actually been charged. do you think what has happened so far was fair? do you think what is happening to hunter biden would happen to other americans were their last name not biden? >> i think the bidens -- the hunter biden does have a case that he is being treated unfairly. on the other hand, if you are connected to a public figure in some fashion, you're more likely to be subjected to prosecutorial and other scrutiny than other people. it's just the risk -- it's just a risk of being in the public eye. and i think that's partly what's happened here. i think the ultimate thing that matters is if he's innocent or if these crimes aren't that serious, he will win in court or he'll get a light sentence. he wasn't going to get -- i didn't think he was going to get prison in the first place, but the ultimate test we should ask here is what would donald trump

have done? if his son had gotten indicted for anything, any of his kids had gotten indicted, the attorney general would have been gone. and the other thing about this, it doesn't matter what garland does for the republicans. it doesn't matter. if you appoint a special counsel, you should have done it earlier. you appointed one to fix the case. if you don't appoint a special counsel, how can you be handling the case. you're not independent. if you indictment hunter biden, it's -- the charges weren't strong -- weren't heavy enough. you should have done it earlier. and if you don't do it, well, obviously you're doing it to protect him. and so, none of it -- and nothing garland will say will matter to these republicans because they're just looking for something -- they'll go from one thing to a completely inconsistent thing the next moment. it doesn't matter to them. it's all about, as we're talking about earlier with the budget and everything, it's just all about making noise. >> george conway and jackie

alemany, thank you both very much for being on this morning and nbc's ken dilanian as well. we appreciate your reporting this morning. coming up, president biden yesterday urged the world to stand with ukraine during his speech at the united nations. we'll show you the new call to action as he tries to counter war fatigue at home and abroad. plus, donald trump said he could end the war in ukraine in 24 hours. now president zelenskyy is daring him to share his peace plan publicly. also ahead, quote, the rage of a toddler caucus on capitol hill, why our next guest says that not even a biden impeachment inquiry can soothe republicans out of a government shutdown. also some other stories we're covering this morning, as you look at the capitol, rudy giuliani sued by his own lawyer for not paying his bills. the bbc has had enough of russell brand.

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i oversee approximately 20 people and my memory just has to be sharp. i always hear people say, you know, when you get older, you know, people lose memory. i didn't want to be that person. i decided to give prevagen a try. my memory became much sharper. i remembered more! i've been taking prevagen for four years now. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. putin said, quote, we surely hear that mr. trump says he will resolve all burning issues within several days, including the ukrainian crisis. we cannot help but feel happy about it. what do you make of that? do you welcome this? >> i like that he said that because that means what i'm saying is right. i would get him into a room. i would get zelenskyy into a room and bring them together and have a deal worked out. >> publicly share his idea now

not to waste time, not to lose people. yes, and say that my formula is to stop the war and stop all this tragedy and stop russian aggression and he said, how he see it. how to push russians from our land, otherwise he's not -- i mean, presenting the global idea of peace. so the idea is how to claim the part of our territory and to give putin. that is not the formuwill. >> that is ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy criticizing donald trump promising to swiftly end the russian invasion without offering any specifics on how he would do that. get them in a room. zelenskyy will address the u.n. security council here in new york today. he'll be in washington tomorrow where he is expected to meet with president biden at the white house. let's bring in richard haass and

msnbc contributor, our good friend mike barnicle. guys, good morning. let's start with yesterday before we look at what's happening today, richard. president biden's address focussed on ukraine to the general assembly. zelenskyy spoke as well. what's the tone, the tenor of what's happening in new york this week. >> it's interesting what the president did yesterday was a shift in words. instead of talking about this is a battle between democracies and authoritarian systems. he talked this is about world order. you should not be able to invade other countries with immunity. this ought to be a message that resonates. i actually think most countries in the world already made their decisions about this war. like the indias, they said, okay, we'll stay close to the russians because that's who where we get our cheap oil and arms from. i don't think there's a lot of changing of minds yesterday even though what the president said was right and what president zelenskyy said was right. >> so zelenskyy today will speak to the u.n. security council. potentially russian foreign

minister sergey lavrov. is there a chance these two guys are face to face. >> there's a chance. it doesn't matter. it's not a negotiating session. and basically if sergey lavrov is there he will exude contempt and so forth. look, the u.n. is not a serious negotiating forum. at best it's a talk shop. what we're seeing this week is how sidelined it. when you have the great powers on opposite sides of an issue, in this case, china and russia on one and u.s. and france and britain. it's gridlocked as the new york streets. >> richard, you once worked for a republican administration and republican president, seems like a long time ago, in listening to president zelenskyy yesterday, did anything occur to you having to do with the fact that it used to be that the republican party specifically, democrats as well, but the republican party specifically would be saying, yes, yes. go get russia.

we're behind you 100%. yet now the fracture within the republican party leads to a very real possibility that there would be a shutdown or di min ewuation of funding for ukraine to continue this war. >> yeah. the republican party used to be the serious party of national security of american leadership in the world. not so much anymore. there's a romance with russia that is just bizarre. obviously donald trump participates it in. but think about it, three decades ago. what was the big issue in the world, sue dam hussein invaded kuwait. under republicans the united states led the world and u.n. to reverse this aggression. once again the same principle is at stake. republicans no longer believe in american leadership in many cases, clearly are not as principled in terms of standing up for the rule of law. >> you know, richard, i want us to step back and look at the u.n. general assembly this week

in the absence of china and russia obviously. to rivals who consider the united states their enemies. i remember dr. brzezinski in the 1980s writing that the soviets, they had no interest in contributing to the world order because they were inferior to the united states economically, militarily, politically and every other way. so for them disruption was their best play. disruption was their only play. disruption cynically was the logical play. it was always fine because that's who the russians were. that's who the soviets were. now we have the chinese doing the same thing, the sagging economy, feeling like they're on their back heel with the united states, finally doing the asia pivot. what is the impact with both china and russia deciding to delink and disengage in the

building out of the world order, which of course china was participating in from 1979 when they normalized relations up until a few years ago. >> well, you've got it right. it's a really fragmented world. so we talk about international community, there isn't an international community. we talk about world order, there really isn't worlded or memp so you have china having its own views clearly about taiwan. russia has these romantic dreams of incorporating ukraine into mother russia. so principles of world order take a distant backseat to national priorities for both these countries. same as iran. same as north korea. we've reached a moment in the world in just three decades if you think about it, from the end of the cold war, things have really deteriorated badly. much less consensus, and willing and ability to work together. no longer agreement on what ought to be the basic principles or the rules of the road. >> so let me ask you, what is

our best play looking forward? right now and moving forward for five years, nothing is ever static. i understand you've got china and russia on one side going their own way. you've got the united states and the eu and our allies all across the world, the richest nations in the world trying to build up a world order, whether you're talking about for the economy or for the environment, et cetera, et cetera. we talk a lot about these not aligned players. what do we do to influence and to move india, to influence and move saudi rabia and to influence and move other nonaligned countries like the uae, who considers themselves to be the middle of everything. what do we do to move these countries more to our direction? if you ask them, the united states hasn't always been a

great ally. >> first thing, joe, is maintain really close partnerships with the countries we know we can count on. the nato allies in europe, japan, australia, south korea and so forth. that's going to be the bases -- >> how are we doing? >> pretty well. i actually think pretty well. that's one of the unsung accomplishments of the united states. the indias, the saudi arabias, the others, they're up for grabs. they're not going to affiliate or align themselves with us. they're transactional. they're hedging their bets trying to play us off on russia and china depending on their narrow. that's the policy. we know we're not going to have anything cooperative with russia or china. and then each time -- it's almost like a pickup game. you show up and choose and decide who in the schoolyard you're going to have. every issue that comes up, we're going to have a different constellation of countries working with us.

we just know, though, we're not going to be able to count on with any confidence the saudis, the indians the brazilians and others. they'll basically keep their options open. >> do the saudis consider themselves to be in an adversarial position with the united states or hoping that donald trump is elected to president. >> i think they prefer donald trump in the white house. i wouldn't use the word adversarial. keep a lot of independence or autonomy. one of the interesting things to watch is this u.s./saudi negotiation. we want the saudis to normalize with israel. saudis want a security arrangement from us. even a treaty. they want a nuclear program we're going to support. what are they prepared to basically do to reassure us -- >> what are they doing for us? i'm sorry. how much money do we give them a year and what do they do for us? what do they do for us? >> that's what congress -- >> what do they do for us? >> that's the question congress ought to be asking. if we're going to hitch our wag on the the saudi? what are we hitching our wagon to? >> what do we get out of it?

>> that's the right question to ask. >> because you look what they've been doing. you look at what they're doing with oil prices. you look at what -- you know, it's one thing if a country is doing what's in their best interest, but they made some moves on oil that actually other people in the region disagreed with, other countries in the region disagreed with and seemed focussed only on hurting the united states or the political prospects of joe biden. >> things about oil and human rights treatment, whether it's mr. khashoggi or what they do with people at the border. so i think congress has the obligation to ask some very tough questions. normally we only have alliances with countries whose social and political systems are similar to us with democracies. saudi arabia would be something qualitatively different. do we want to go down that path? what kind of conditions or stipulations would we set? that's where congress has to ask tough questions. >> richard haass, thank you very much for your insights this morning as always. coming up next on "morning joe," while president biden was

calling for a global cooperation, donald trump was calling for domestic chaos with comments about indicting democrats if he wins in 2024. "new york times" correspondent peter baker and new yorker staff writer susan glasser joins us next to discuss the war of words. plus, the bbc banning russell brand's content, saying that it falls below public expectations. we'll discuss the growing fallout surrounding the comedian as he faces sexual assault accusations. "morning joe" been right back. and look at that shot of new york city. oh my god. >> it's beautiful. >> it's gorgeous. ♪♪

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now if i win, and let's say somebody comes along on the democrat side and they're looking very strong, i can call my attorney general, i guess. am i allowed to call him and say, you have to indict him on something. just find anything. >> you know, that's actually what he already did. >> we have learned -- >> again, that's what he did two weeks before the election, called barr, told barr he should indict joe biden and biden's family. but that was donald trump saying if he gets elected president, he's going to just start indicting democrats for no reason. let's bring in right now staff writer at "the new yorker" and peter baker, co-authors of "the divider: trump in the white house" which is now available in paper back. susan, i don't want to

catastrophize, it looks like four more years of him could be constitutionally catastrophic. he's talking about just going out and arresting people for no reason. he actually called for my arrest back during his presidency. he's talking about terminating the constitution. this is amped up considerably, has it not, even since he left office? >> joe, i totally agree. the two key words, like you said, one is definitely terminate as in terminate the constitution. the other thing is retribution and revenge, and trump, as you saw in that clip there, has made it clear again and again and again, this is the playbook he'll be turning to. it's not only a lot of talk from republicans on capitol hill about weaponizing the

government, that essentially is donald trump's approach to the white house, which is the idea that it would become a personal instrument of retribution. he actually said in another recent interview, why should they launch an impeachment inquiry of joe biden, because they impeached me. it wouldn't happen if they hadn't impeached me. this extreme personalization of power is the way in which donald trump is most an outlier from any president of the united states we can ever imagine. he truly sees no division between his own kind of strong man aspirations and those for the country. >> so, peter, beyond weaponizing potentially the department of justice to go after his political opponents which, in itself, is a breathtaking breach of norms and the rule of law, we know that the trump team were he to be re-elected, want to gut the federal bureaucracy. tell us about that, how they plan to reshape washington, reshape the federal government,

and turn it into an instrument that donald trump can use at his whim. >> that's exactly right. one of the things about this back susan and i wrote, "the divider," we thought it was a work of history but it's a work of prologue. if you want to look at what he wants to do in his second term, what he couldn't do in the first term, gutting civil service, including turning positions in the government that are meant to be apolitical into political appointees, people who only do his bidding. you will not see in a second term the kinds of people in the first term who restrained him, people like john kelly or h.r. mcmaster will not be there in a second term. you'll see people who want to help him attack the deep state, as he likes to put it, who will help to reshape the federal government in his image, to make more agencies quasi independent or autonomous, report directly to him, to put more power in the hands of the oval office directly in his hands. he wouldn't appreciate it if joe

biden did it because he doesn't think joe biden should be president. if he's in there, he wants all power to rest in his hands, and he's mapped out a plan for how to do that. >> and, susan, to that point and that you all write about in the book, we should take donald trump at his word now when he says things like we heard him say about prosecuting his opponents, because there was a sense when he was running last time, he was elected but our institutions will hold and people will put guardrails around him. those people aren't going to be there and if eastman or rudy giuliani is attorney general in the second term, they're going to carry out his orders along with perhaps a speaker kevin mccarthy in the house. what are the fears in washington about a potential second term for donald trump? >> yeah, i think, willie, that's a really important point is imagine donald trump without the guardrails, and that was the view in washington in january of 2017. it was a legitimate view. it turned out to be in many ways

a wrong view. if anything, i think, studying what happened especially at the end of trump's term in office, you come away with a perception not so much that the institution held but it was a close-run thing as the military folks like to put it. just one vice president, one attorney general away from donald trump accomplish perhaps the unthinkable thing of seeking to overturn the election. so, for example, impeachment. essentially a dead letter when it comes to being a meaningful constraint on the president and, of course, that was the constitution's basic idea for how to constrain a rogue actor in the executive office. and now the meaningful prospect of a senate conviction for any president certainly including donald trump is gone. trump doesn't have a real impeachment constraint. if he is somehow elected, remember, that will be after these four criminal indictments, again, an unprecedented thing

and in this hypothetical he somehow survived it and was re-elected. so i think that it's really a much more radical prospect than the first term. >> the paper back edition of "the divider" is out now. "the new yorker's" susan glasser and peter, thank you for being on. one of the president's top advisers, retired admiral john kirby, joins the conversation. plus, as rudy giuliani continues to drown in debt, a lawyer who defended him in numerous cases has filed a complaint for nearly $1.4 million. what his lawsuit now alleges giuliani failed to do. plus, a colorado state player and his family facing death threats after he was involved in a play that hospitalized star player of a rival team. we'll tell you about the backlash he's receiving and how

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in the 20 years i've served in congress, i've never seen the rule brought down on a defense appropriations bill. you know who is enjoying this more than anybody, kaitlan, is chairman xi in china. he says to the president's side in taiwan or to us, democracy doesn't work. democracy is a failure. i can make a decision like that, and i am more effective than democracy. and what i worry about, we justed proved him right with this vote. >> thank god. thank god you have a republican saying this because i know there are many republicans who are feeling this. they're feeling this when tommy tuberville is getting in the way of writing this. we focus on the commandant of the marine corps, other leaders of the service branches who aren't stepping in there, but

think about the chaos, the chaos that it causes for all the hundreds of military personnel, people have committed their lives to serving the united states. most importantly for them, their families who should be moving to another base, kids should be starting at other schools, and the republicans in the senate are stopping that from happening. for hundreds and hundreds of not only officers but families, mika. it's heartbreaking because that cuts at readiness, something we learned on the armed services committee that you can't separate how a soldier or a sailor or an airman or marine is being treated and the way his or her family is being treated. that goes into readiness. >> yes. >> and so the republicans in the

house are now not even allowing a vote on the military. certainly not the chairman, thank god, but so many republicans who run around the hill saying that our military is weak, and tommy tuberville says they're woke because they read a poem, because somebody reads a poem. it's insanity. other senators are saying they would rather our troops be more like russian soldiers. do you know who says that? nobody. nobody. we have the best fighting force in the world, the best fighting force ever here in the united states of america. you ask the russians, they have no idea what we do with our ncos. it's not top down. it's bottom up. that's how we train. that's how we train them, to be the best in the world, and we are the best in the world. our military is the strongest in the world. they're the most professional in

the world, and i'm sick and tired of republicans on capitol hill undermining that, trying to undermine that, saying they're weak and they're woke. they're not. that's a lie. that is a lie that is spread by these trumpers. i don't get why they hate the military so much. but i know that it's damaging. it's really damaging to the psyche. it's damage to go recruiting. it's damaging to so many things. this is what we republicans, when i used to be a republican, we would push back against. this is what republicans push back or conservatives pushed back against in the '60s and the '70s. and now you have trump republicans doing it. and thank god, again, that you have the chairman speaking out against it. >> yes. >> make no mistake, and the chairman said it, these republicans that are standing in the way of funding the military, they're providing aid and comfort to xi.

they're providing aid and comfort to putin. they're providing aid and comfort to the iranians and every dictator, every tyrant that says democracy does not work. so i thank the chairman for saying it, and i hope other republicans will start saying it out loud, because we have to support our military. we have to support our men and women in uniform. we have to support the leaders of the military who devoted their entire lives to this country and have fought in wars to protect and defend the united states and our interests across the globe. >> what these republicans, the republican party, is supposed to be the party of law and order and national security, and some of these republicans if they look in the mirror, they will not recognize themselves. joining the conversation we have national security counsel coordinator for strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby. i guess we'll start right there with senator tommy tuberville. is there anything that can be done to pressure this one

senator who is wreaking havoc on military promotions in the lives of so many who serve this country, as you have, and also, quite frankly, making the military a place that will lose a lot of great women if his position on abortion is held. >> yeah, that's true, mika. one in five of our service members are women, and they have every right to expect when they raise their right hand and agree to serve this country and defend our constitution the military and the system will look after them and their health care and the health care of their families. so you're right, some may vote with their feet. some make tough decisions. i had to make this decision myself in 2015 to retire and walk away from the uniform. it's never an easy decision to make. some of them are now facing that very decision whether it's worth staying in and waiting until we don't know when this hold will be lifted or getting on with our

lives. as for what can be done, the thing that needs to be done now, his republican colleagues, particularly in the senate, need to step in and get him to lift this hold because it is really starting to have deleterious effects. >> republicans, including mitch mcconnell, say out loud publicly, i disagree with what he's doing. put pressure on him. it's one guy. can you speak to the argument tommy tuberville has made this isn't that big a deal. the united states military is top heavy, to many admirals, too many generals already. don't worry about this. meanwhile, we're sitting here for the first time in 150 years without a senate confirmed commandant off the marine corps. what are the real world impacts of this to the military? >> let's just take the jobs themselves. let's talk about erik smith, general smith, a great guy. he's the acting commandant but is still in a role as assistant.

they are two different jobs that he's doing all at once. and because he's not senate confirmed in that job, he doesn't have all the authorities that a senate confirmed commandant would have. there are certain limits, moving money around, that kind of thing. it's actually having an effect on the marine corps. it's not just eric is tired because he's doing two jobs. it's making a big difference in the way he is administering the united states marine court. >> trump republicans who co-opted the word patriots, we're patriots. the campaign will send out emails, patriots, help my dad pay his legal bills for his attempt to lead a coup against the united states government. there's nothing patriotic about what's happening here with tommy tuberville standing in the way of our military being ready. that's not patriotic. that's the opposite of it. >> republicans and specifically republicans talk about patriotism a lot. none talk about complicity with tommy tuberville for allowing him to continue this that's been going on for months and months

and months and is damaging. i would like to ask you, admiral, one word, the word is deploy. and the word meaning all of the families of the military who sit now waiting to find out months after they thought they were going to be deployed to some post around the world, the country, waiting to see what's going to happen. schools, health problems with children, the impact on families. >> jobs, let's talk about spouses, their jobs. we have military spouses -- and this isn't just an example. this is an actual anecdote where military spouses have applied for and accepted jobs in what they thought was going to be the next duty assignment, and now they can't move, so they're having to turn those jobs down. we know of one senior officer, the secretary of the army, talked about the one senior officer that she knows, they are now having to pay out of pocket

for the care of an elderly parent because they weren't able to effect the move to the next place to get that parent into the assisted living facility they had already registered and subscribed to. talk about schools, students now that have been accepted into schools, either private schools going forward or have been prepared to go into public schools at the next assignment. now they can't. and schools are in session now and they are not able to go to the school that they thought. housing. before you move, every one of us does this. you set up your housing at the next duty station. and that means often paying out of pocket to get a down payment on rent or a mortgage loan for a home. now all of that's frozen. so if you don't think this backs up on the families, it absolutely does. and let me tell you something, we have a saying in the navy you recruit a sailor you maintain a family. the family sitting around the

kitchen table will make the final decisions whether this is worth doing anymore, whether it's worth staying in. do we really want to grind this out for how long until he decides to lift this hold or just get on with our lives? that will be decided again at the kitchen table by these military families. >> admiral, let's turn to the president and the united nations this week here in new york, a number of meetings today. he delivered his centerpiece speech yesterday and, of course, calling for those to rally around ukraine was at the heart of the speech. facing two sort of difficult audiences. there are many nations represented there at the u.n. yesterday who have stayed on the sidelines of this, who have not jumped in to help out the u.s. and its allies back kyiv and also the domestic audience, republicans right now who are flat-out saying they're not sure they want to keep the funding going. how do you think this was received by both? >> i think the president made a very compelling case yesterday in his remarks for why it's important to continue to support ukraine. and the other aspect of that speech, and the president spent quite some time on it not just

in terms of ukraine but in terms of the u.n. charter and the u.n. general assembly as a viable venue, is the idea of sovereignty. every nation has to decide for itself what it's going to do here and, you're right, not every nation has decided to come in on the side of ukraine and some are sitting on the fence. president zelenskyy, i think you'll hear from him to try to talk to some of those fence sitters and get them moving more in the right direction. but we have to make sure that in defending ukraine's sovereignty, we're not violating the principle itself. we're not browbeating or arm twisting. we want every nation to support ukraine in every way they can, military weapons or financial assistance, but we absolutely don't want anybody. if you're not going to support ukraine, that's your sovereign decision, but you shouldn't do anything, anything to make it easier for mr. putin to kill more ukrainians. >> and why, admiral, do you suspect china or india, for example, not putting more pressure on vladimir putin? what is their interest in

materially supporting the war but not intervening on behalf of ukraine? >> well, it's difficult for me to speak to other nations but i'll tell you in china's case, i mean, you haven't seen a full-throated endorsement of what mr. putin is doing, and they haven't provided lethal capabilities to putin's forces. but -- >> they could do more. >> they could do more. in that case, they sort of share -- the one thing they share with mr. putin is bristling at american leadership on the world stage, the kind of leadership president biden showed yesterday, they don't like this international rules-based order that the united states helped put in place, and they don't particularly like american leadership on the global stage. putin's war -- putin's efforts sort of go akin to that, but they aren't all in. and, look, india has its own relationships to manage. they do have a long-standing relationship with russia that they're working their way through but they, too, have not come all in.

>> the good news five americans returned home from iran. the front page of "the wall street journal," going back to russia, evan gershkovich was denied at pretrial yesterday, said let me be released, denied that by russia, being held as a chip. what are the efforts like to get evan gershkovich home? where does that stand? >> very active. i can tell you there's not a single day since evan has been incarcerate that had we haven't worked on that case as well as paul whalen who has been there some eight-plus years. we want to get both of these gentlemen home. they've been charged and accused with espionage, which we know is completely ridiculous, not true. because it's espionage, the russians sort of treat them differently, so it's going to be -- it could be potentially tough to continue to work to get them back. i can honestly tell you we're working this every single day. unfortunately, i don't have any developments to speak to or progress that i can announce, but i want evan and his family to know as well as mr. whalen and his family to know we are

still actively, actively working it. >> let's hope like brittney griner they get home soon. retired rear admiral john kirby. russell brand's tour dates are postponed and the bbc is pulling the plug on the star's content following allegations of sexual assault. what is next for brand as he denies those allegations? plus, florida governor ron desantis going after house speaker kevin mccarthy. we'll explain what's behind that feud. also ahead the ranking democrat on the house intel committee congressman jim himes is our guest on a busy wednesday morning on "morning joe." dove invited women who wanted their damaged hair trimmed. yes, i need a trim. i just want to be able to cut the damage. we tried dove instead. so, still need that trim? oh my gosh! i am actually shocked i don't need a haircut. don't trim daily damage. stop it with dove. whenever you're hungry,

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defensive back henry blackburn was flagged for a late hit during saturday night's game against the university of colorado in boulder that left colorado two-way star hunter with an injury. the addresses for blackburn on campus and for his family's home. colorado coach, pro football hall of famer, deion sanders, spoke out strongly yesterday against those threats. >> he made a tremendous hit on travis on the sideline. you could call it dirty, you could call it he was just playing the game of football, but whatever it was, it does not constitute he should be receiving death threats. he does not deserve a death threat over a game. at the end of the day, this is a game. someone must win. someone must lose. everybody continues their life the next day. very unfortunate. i'm saddened if there are any of other fans that's on the other

side of those threats, i would hope and pray not, but that kid was just playing the best of his ability and he made a mistake. >> joe, good for coach sanders there. that's leadership, telling the fan base to stand down, knock it off, and actually travis, the kid who took the hit and got a serious injury to his liver actually, he said, look, it's football. he made a late hit. it happens. that's the guy sitting injured. good on the colorado buffaloes, good leadership from coach prime. he went on to say at the end of the press conference, let's all pray for blackburn, the kid on the other team receiving the death threats, calling for prayers for him. >> willie, it is football, and i've looked at the hit, like, several times yesterday and today. i'm going to say, you know, the ref was right there. so he had a much better view of

it to call it a late hit. we've all seen flagrant late hits. this kid blackburn was running across the field full steam, hits him, you know, the ball is over his head. you know, the kid is still on the playing field. he doesn't see the ball go over his head. and he hits him hard. you know, hatch the time a ref is not going to throw a flag there. again, hitting inbounds is not like some late hits that we see where a quarterback is three or four yards out of the field of play and then gets hammered. so, again, it's really a bizarre play to generate such hatred and animosity. no play should because it's kids playing a game. >> that's deion sanders' son. >> good for deion for saying

that and calling out his own fans and saying, come on, come on, cut it out. and so nice that they're talking about prayers for henry blackburn right now and his family who are not used to this. the kid strapped on a helmet, played football, played it hard, and he and his family is getting death threats now. >> it was a penalty. the ref called it. it was a late hit. we've seen much, much worse, guys leading with their helmets and knocking people unconscious. the penalty was called and good for coach sanders for just telling the colorado fan base to knock it off. joe, i want to point out one other thing about the game we're talking about. that game started after 10:00 p.m. eastern time on espn, ended almost 2:30 in the morning eastern. the number for that game, this is what deion sanders is doing for college football, 9.3 million people watched the game. >> unbelievable. >> by comparison the average last season for that timeslot for espn was 1.7 million viewers. it was the most streamed college

football game in the history of a nonplayoff game in the had history of college football. take this game a year ago, joe, you know, it's buried somewhere on, i don't know where, some other channel. it's on espn and 9 million people stayed up until 2:30 in the morning to watch it. >> yeah, i mean -- >> that's amazing. >> a year ago it's on rocky mountain cable access channel 47. >> a good network. >> now 9.3 million people watching it and jonathan, we watch "wheel of fortune" 6:30, lights out. man, i wish i could stay up to watch this game. you had the back and forth between the coaches. deion is doing for coaching what he did for the atlanta braves, what he did the nfl. he's pretty extraordinary.

>> i always pegged i as more a "murder, she wrote" household. >> you know, if we're going to do crime, i mean, it's "matlock," right? >> that's reasonable. deion sanders has electrified not just that school but college football. there are whispers he'll move on to the next thing later because he's such a rocketship right now, but this is extraordinary. and these games are all must see he. he brings celebrities with him. his sons are playing for him and they're both excelling. we should note that the poor kid who was hurt is arguably their best player. let's hope he makes a full recovery. he's been hospitalized for a while. it was a borderline hit, maybe late, but sanders did exactly what you're supposed to do yesterday. this is a kid. these are kids. it's a game and everyone needs to take down the temperature. >> listen to the coach. okay, another story making headlines this morning, the bbc

has removed all programming featuring russell brand. the decision comes as the comedian is accused of rape, sexual assault and emotional abuse. brand denies the allegations. the bbc says it only removed content when there is a justification for doing so. adding that it assessed programming featuring brand and decided it, quote, falls below public expectations. it's not clear which shows have been removed. youtube suspended monetization on brand's channel saying it takes action if creators' off platform behavior harms our users, employees or ecosystem. closing in a little bit on russ brand as these allegations are looked into. coming up congressman jim himes with his take on the

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welcome back. it is half past the hour. as house speaker kevin mccarthy struggles to contain his republican caucus, he is not getting any help from candidate ron desantis. >> what is he doing? >> he's an anti-vaxxer now. >> he's chased off so many contributors with a six-week abortion ban, which is extreme even by most republicans' standards. he says that he supports tommy tuberville in gutting the readiness of the united states military. >> great. >> he's just taking these extreme positions, and what he doesn't understand is -- i mean,

he's never going to get donald trump's voters, right? so why is he trying to fill that lane when that lane is taken there are the 50% of republicans who don't want to vote for donald trump, that would be a better lane to take. again, it's insanity. he keeps getting more extreme, and it is hard to remember, but, his first year or so as florida governor, he actually reached across the aisle. he did a lot of things right on the environment. democrats were saying. >> and on covid he was pushing the vaccine. helping people be healthy. >> he had, like, 60% approval rating in the state of florida with a lot of support from swing voters so, again, this guy is just sort of moving wherever -- but i don't know what he thinks the play is going even more extreme to the right. >> desantis and house speaker kevin mccarthy are locked in an

emerging feud that is now spilling out into the public. here is what the florida governor said yesterday on fox business. >> since kevin has been in congress they've added trillions and trillions to the debt even when we had unified republican government. i think it's the people that want to continue the status quo from favor of shutdowns because this excessive debt and spending has shut down the american dream for so many americans. >> ron desantis in congress, i'm not sure what he's talking about. >> that came after mccarthy predicted donald trump would win the nomination and added this about governor desantis. >> i served with ron desantis. he's not at the same level as president trump by any shape or form. he would not have gotten elected without president trump's endorsement. >> it gives me a headache, they're going to argue over who is more trumpy.

>> embracing government shutdown if the democrats won't meet their demands. jonathan lemire, i have to say, these are all the same people that kept pushing to spend more and more and more money, record deficits, record federal debt, record budgets. they spent more in every four years of donald trump's presidency than anyone had ever spent before pre-covid. pre-covid. >> yeah, that's an important point here is that, yes, the covid inflapted things just as it did for president biden at the beginning of his, but that pattern existed long before then. republicans, as we see it time and time again, only care about spending when a democrat is in the white house. it is a political truism in washington.

let's get someone to weigh in on it and that's the ranking member of the house intelligence committee, republican jim himes of connecticut. so good to see you this morning. let's start there, the idea of a government shutdown on the horizon. republicans this week, well, they can't seem to get out of their own way. at this point how likely do you think it is the government will shut down and tell us what the consequences may be. >> yeah, look, i think yesterday we all came to the conclusion it's a certainty and just to tell you why, yesterday the republicans in the house failed to move a procedural vote on the defense spending bill. two things, number one, this used to be so easy to do, defense. we all support defense. this bill in particular, they loaded it down with every maga fever dream toxic appendage you can imagine, so much so not a single one of the democratic hawks would vote for it and it's not that they couldn't pass it on the floor, they couldn't pass

a procedural motion to get it onto the floor. if you can't do the basic thing, the idea kevin mccarthy will pull off the political equivalent of a triple axel to stop the shutdown given that he refuses to lead against his 5, 10, 30 crazy freedom caucus chaos agents just not going to happen. >> and of course now one wonders how much longer the speaker will be able to hold on to power. in congress some thought he s hoping to get a deal on the budget if he could placate those on the right byffering an impeachment inquiry into president biden. that's not the case. the inquiry moves forward. the first hearing is scheduled for next week. talk to us about your assessment of that and what will democrats do to stand up for president biden? >> the good news is, and we've seen this this entire congress, the facts and the truth are on our side. every week a combination of jim

jordan or comer offers up sensational fox news bait this is the week we find the witness that shows joe biden is, in fact, the head of a mafia corrupt crime family and it nerve turns out to be true. witnesses say joe biden didn't know anything at all about his son's business. he made the occasional phone call to say hello, whatever the. they build up expectations with these spectacular dangled promises and they fail. the impeachment inquirpy will do the same thing. i've seen a couple of impeachment inquiries. there was a transcript to the ukrainian president saying if you don't give me dirt on joe biden, i'm not giving you foreign aid. it is evidence. mccarthy for the first time has started an inquiry with precisely zero evidence. >> congressman, you're working in an institution now known for the absence of governance, you

can't govern so you have to sit across the aisle from people who don't want to govern. president zelenskyy is in washington, d.c., i believe, later today. or tomorrow. and there's an element committed to cutting off any future funding or reducing future funding for ukraine in the war against russia. how scary is that? >> it shouldn't be scary, right? that element is, according to a vote we took probably two weeks ago, 60 or 70 republicans, ordinarily that would not matter. but in this world where matt gates or tommy tuberville can lead the leadership around by the nose hairs, tommy tuberville

in the senate -- we used to have leadership in this building. tommy tuberville is single-handedly eroding in very meaningful ways the national security of the united states, and where is mitch mcconnell? where is mitch mcconnell to say what leaders used to say, i will take you off your committees, make sure you don't get a dollar from the senatorial committee. today we have a speaker who wakes up in the morning and does the equivalent of calling up matt gates, what do you want today? with the knowledge that whatever the matt gates says, it ain't going to be enough. >> i really can't understand why there isn't a republican or someone who can get to tommy tuberville and stop this one man from wreaking the havoc he's creating and what he's doing to our military, to our readiness, to families. it's brutal. this blockade needs to be

stopped. i can't imagine one person in congress who disagrees with that. maybe there's one. when it comes to funding ukraine, the government shutdown, impeachment inquiry into president biden, you mentioned these republicans who seem to be in control. are there any republicans that you can work with at this point? and who are they? >> there are, mika, and here is what makes me most sad. there's lunatics in every asylum, right? that doesn't surprise me. why is mitch mcconnell -- look, i don't like where he comes from on issues but i admire his operational acumen. why is he being led around in a desperately dangerous way by tommy tuberville who until 15 minutes ago was a football coach, not an expert in national security, right? why is speaker mccarthy not doing what he knows he needs to do to stop a shutdown to do what

he did on the debt ceiling deal, okay, look, we're going to hold our nose and make a compromise. every day kevin mccarthy does is make sure i stay as speaker even if the cost is a shutdown that will hurt hundreds of americans who don't get paid, who have to cancel vacations to national parks, social security put at risk. it's an absence of leadership. here is what they say, i want to be speaker of the house. leading means you make tough decisions and take some fire. >> ranking member, democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut. thank you very much for being on the show today. we appreciate it. the writers guild is returning to the bargaining table with the group who represents the studios and streaming service amid a months

long hollywood shutdown that has impacted thousands and cost billions of dollars. entertainment correspondent chloe miloss has the details. >> reporter: a pivotal moment in the months long strike in hollywood. >> what do we want, fair pay. >> reporter: the wga representing more than 11,000 writers and the amptp representing streaming services including comcast, the parent company of nbc universal, sitting down for a face-to-face meeting. >> anytime you're actually sitting at the table, something can happen. if you're not talking, nothing can happen. >> reporter: wage increases, residuals, and the use of artificial intelligence. negotiations are resuming amid the strike that has shut down the entertainment industry for more than four months. writers pacing the picket line since the beginning of may, many say they're facing financial distress. >> people are losing houses,

losing their cars, need to go to food banks. >> reporter: "our focus is getting a fair deal for writers as soon as possible." a source familiar with negotiations telling nbc news talks are expected to last several days and the amptp is not expected to have revised its previous offer made in august, the last time the two sides met, a meeting not productive. the impact of strikes is being felt across the country. the most recent jobs report showed a monthly decrease of 17,000 jobs in the motion picture industries. >> i don't know how i'm going to pay these last two months' rent. >> reporter: it's hurting hospitality, trucking and dry cleaning businesses. costing the state's economy more than $5 billion. california's go of gavin newsom hasn't been on the picket lines but says he's paying close attention.

while not involved in the talks, newsom has been engaged in conversations with both sides. he is encouraged they're talking and is hopeful for a resolution. with fall tv schedules feeling the fallout filled with unscripted programming, all eyes will be on these meetings including the people behind talk shows scheduled in the coming weeks. bill maher, sans writers. an ending to this hollywood drama. >> all right. we'll be following that and up next here on "morning joe," $1.4 million, what rudy giuliani's lawyer wants him to pay up. why he's now suing his former client and what giuliani had to say about it. plus, a former member of the british parliament, rory stewart, joins us to discuss, quote what to do when your party

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i understand all those feelings and our job as the government, my job, is to bring this country together now and take us forward. the most important thing to say tonight is this is not an end but a beginning. this is the moment the dawn breaks and the curtain goes up on a new act in our great national drama. >> which led to liz trust. >> that is boris johnson

announcing the official exit from the european union. brexit was a contentious issue central to johnson's win to become the uk's leader in 2019. some in his own party objected to completely pulling out of the trade deal by prompted johnson to expel them. our next guest was one of those 21 members of parliament who was ousted for voting against johnson's brexit deal. now all these years later he's reflecting on how england's conservative party has changed and the similarities he's seeing here in the u.s. joining us now former member of the british parliament and senior adviser of gibb directly, rory stewart. he is also the author of "how not to be a politician." >> let's talk first about what

you grappled with, a once conservative party, and -- >> the real cure is the center or the more moderate people need to sort their act out. i think i hate the populists deeply. i resigned from parliament and lost my seat because of it, but when one reflects on it, it's not just the fault of boris johnson, it's the fault of us, because we created an opportunity for the populists to come back, and it's true in the united states and in britain and across europe. it's terrifying. it's to do with many things from the economy to social media. this is the big challenge of the next decade. >> why sit mainstream republicans, what i used to call

main street republicans, independents and democrats in the united states as well as torys and some member's of the labor party, why do we have such a hard time of dealing with the falsehoods where they are coming from boris johnson's office, or donald trump's campaign, and there are revealed to be lies by video and as time passes, and yet so many people in britain and the united states stay with these populists who have been caught in lie after lie after lie? >> i think part of the answer is that there's a little bit of truth hidden in those lies, and the truth is the economic system let a lot of people down. the 2008 financial crisis revealed there were big crisis in our communities, and the

democracy was not performing for many people, and iraq and afghanistan were disasters, and they are often racist and divisive, and part of the problem is that moderates, like myself, yes, we need to stands up to the populist, but we also need a very clear and bold emotionally compelling way to defend the future. >> brexit is often the political landscape of europe and the globe, actually, and it began -- well, you will bear this out in whatever your answer will be, but david cameron is prime minister, and he's glib and articulate, and he threw it out there, vote it up or down, we

have confidence in you. did he do it out of indifference? ignorance? >> he did it out of complacency, and my book is the ten years of the journey through this, and yes, it's how complacent the people that preceded them were. david cameron felt everybody had been sorted and everybody agreed with him, and there were a few fridge lunatics on the right, and now he has weakened britain. >> tell us about the book and the journey you have taken, and what you see for yourself next and for your country? >> the book is partly about the journey of being a politician.

i feel when i talk to u.s. senators and u.s. congress people, people underestimate how modern politics is bad for your body, mind and soul, and how much time you spend simply fundraising, and how much time you spend simplifying. the truth of the matter is whether you are moderate or whether you are on the extremes, the punishing impacts on your family, your mental health and your life, and you end up with very, very strange people. the people we end up seeing on our television screens are not normal, people that can endure this are not normal. >> that's for sure. we witness it every day. >> yeah, that's an underestimate for sure. >> rory, you are in new york for the u.n. general assembly, and that's happening this week. you say extreme poverty is the

number one thing the u.n. should be working on. how does that play into all of the other issues that are crisis in the world right now, issues that should be addressed as well? >> it's terribly difficult, as you say. we have to think about climate and a.i. i represent an organization that does unconditional cash tran furs to give directly to the extremely poor, and the hope is there for addressing the extreme poverty, and budgets being cut allver the world and the focus is going away from the extreme core. >> the new book is entitled "how not to be a politician." rory stewart, thank you for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. congratulations on the book. still ahead, jens stoltenberg joins us, and he

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i think all of you know i am not a fan of government shutdowns, and i have seen a few over the years, and they never produced a policy change and always have been a loser for republicans politically. >> that senate minority leader, mitch mcconnell, with a warning for house republicans, mika, and yesterday what we talked about here, i have been through a government shutdown or two. >> yes, you have. >> you never get what you want, first of all, because -- >> it's a -- >> it's a democracy. secondly, it always cuts against republicans, always hurts

republicans at the end of the day, and it does for us in other government shutdowns, and that's why we are seeing house republicans looking at the clown caucuses people are starting to call them in the republican party and saying, listen, we are either going to get this done with you guys, or we are going to work with the democrats to get it done. we are going to see movement on this. >> house speaker kevin mccarthy is struggling to round up the votes to avoid a government shutdown and faces an uphill battle to unite his party. and then meanwhile, there's a date into the impeachment of president biden, the inquiry, and quote, i am not the president's lawyer. >> merrick garland has to explain that to trump republicans because trump republicans actually thought barr and the rest of the attorneys were trump's personal attorney. that's how stupid they are.

>> and merrick garland will speak those words this morning when he faces the republicans on the hill when they accuse him of weaponizing the state department. >> i think they are precious when they are talking about weaponizing the justice department when they are behind a guy that demanded bill barr arrest joe biden and joe biden's family. two weeks before the presidential election. when he didn't, it was the beginning of the end for barr. >> yeah, this is an annual hearing that merrick garland, the attorney general, will go before the judiciary committee, and it's oversight, and we know they will sit and ask about hunter biden and the appointment

of the special counsel, which by the way, he did to separate himself, and he appoints a special counsel who is a trump-appointed u.s. attorney, on and on, trying to show this group of republicans that says there's a wall between the executive branch and the judicial branch. i have a sneaking suspicious suspicion this will not suffice. >> yeah, they will yell he pointed a special counsel to delay things. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, and attorney and columnist, george,

and a reporter for "the posts" and an msnbc contributor with us. >> jonathan lemire, did the red sox win? >> when i went to bed, they were winning. when i woke up, they lost. >> glad you asked. >> those are our boys, joe. >> i think you just neatly summed up, and i am serious, our entire season. good hitting. go to the bullpen. lose games. move on to football. >> you guys can commiserate. i will give you more to commiserate about. house republicans continue to fight amongst themselves over two bills to fund the military and the government. a vote planned for yesterday was

scrapped after roughly a dozen republicans said they would not support it. freedom caucus members are threatening to oust speaker kevin mccarthy. >> blah, blah, blah -- >> if their demands are not met. they are very important. >> you are so important. >> there's 11 days left before government funding expires and a full shutdown begins. regarding the military spending bill, five republicans joined democrats to kill a vote just to debate the defense funding measure. all five cited spending for their reason for that. and some republicans aired their frustrations yesterday. >> you are asking me a lot of questions? why are they voting against -- think about what they are voting against.

they are voting against bringing the bill up to have a discussion on it? you have to more than 170 amendments, and the idea that you vote against a rule that you don't bring up. >> i am disappointed and pissed of, and our inability to bring it to a package vote because of the five individuals to put their individual needs ahead of our troops is upsetting. it a bad look to not be able to get a rule through the floor, and when you do that you hand the keys over of the majority to the minority. >> this is not conservatism republican, it's stupidity. the idea that we are going to shut the government down, we don't control the white house -- you keep running lunatics, you

will be in this position. >> amen. >> they don't know how to take yes for an answer. >> when i was in congress, we were blessed and we had people that wanted to balance the budget, so we balanced the budget four times in a row, and the only time it happened in a century. this is unlike that group, and this group doesn't really care about balancing budgets. they don't really care about policy. they have shown us that time and time again. it's all gesturing. we will try and shutdown the government. why? just because we want to gesture. we want to gesture to somebody. we don't care about policy or balancing the budgets, and we don't care about the troops or military readiness. we will shutdown the government.

we are not -- >> we are going to say no. >> we are not even going to bring the funding bill up for a vote. we won't let it get to the floor. meanwhile in the senate you have tuberville and others doing everything they can to gut the military bill. what a long way between the republicans' we were and what we are now under trump. >> yeah, they are just interested in getting on tv and being able to perform, and having people send money and contributions and get airtime. they don't have any policy positions that matter to them, because if they were trying to do that they would work towards a compromise where they would get some of what they want, even though it's not possible to get all of it. it's all about performance. it's all about -- they don't even care about having a majority. they are willing to sacrifice

those moderate republicans that we just showed on air here, that they are willing to -- who needs them? they don't need the majority because they are not governing. all they want to do is send sand in the gears and if the car keeps going, they will say, oh, it's a terrible car, and it's a terrible car anyway. >> all those voices critical of the republicans were republicans, moderates like mike lawler, and he will have a tough race ahead of him. and the small votes are just to open debate. how is kevin mccarthy, how is the speaker, who clearly is frustrated as you heard, how does he clear the hurdle with such a narrow majority in the house? >> it's a good question, willie, and the fact that these procedural votes fail does not

bode well for mccarthy who is only a week from a government shutdown. there are several lawmakers that said they would be open to passing a continuing resolution if mccarthy promised a $1.47 billion top line discretionary spending for all of the appropriations bills, and there's 11 left that need to be hashed out, but these handful of lawmakers that continue to vote against the initial appropriation bills said they have not heard that from mccarthy, and he has not followed through his promise to cut the budget at the end of the day. even if mccarthy does agree to -- and sort of willingly continues to be held hostage to this small vocal minority who are willing to shutdown the government, people like andy

bigs, yesterday, he told me his constituents realize there's a difference between a government shutdown and a government pause, and his constituents worry more about cutting the budget than they do about allowing the government to keep running. there are several members who will vote no, no matter what, and that puts mccarthy in an unattainable situation, and the only outcome and option ahead here is that a motion to vacate the speaker for mccarthy potentially to lose his job is really the process that is unfolding at the moment. >> so i think it's important that we all just stop for one second here and remind each other, this is a clown show and these clowns, along with donald trump, over donald trump's four years in the white house, spent more money over four years than

congress ever in the history of this country or any other country. they accumulated eight trillion -- these people who are now saying, we're going to go to the barricades and shutdown the government because he won't cut spending -- these are the people that were part of donald trump adding $8.2 trillion to the national debt over four years. over four years. reagan only 1.86 trillion over eight years, and bush $6.1 trillion over eight years, and trump over four years, jonathan lemire, contributed to

the national debt from 1789 to 2000, those 42 presidents accumulated less debt than donald trump. these same republicans, these same republicans, time and time again -- by the way, i will repeat it again. it's not like i didn't warn them and i was not tweeting something out every other day, and i was not going to the hill talking to them, and we said, here, you got to stop it, and now a democrat is in the white house and suddenly they remembered they like balanced budgets. it's an absolute joke. the fact is kevin mccarthy doesn't need these clowns. he can just work with the democrats, because that's what the republican moderates said yesterday in the republican

caucus meeting. saying to the clowns, if you want to shutdown the government so you can raise more money on social media, because, again, that's what this is about. they don't care if they have a majority next year or not. in fact, if they don't have a majority, they can be crazier on social media and crazier on the house floor and raise more money. you look at the craziest people in the house republican caucus that are destroying the chances of a majority right now, they are the people that look more money in the minority because they can say crazier things on the house floor and on social media. that's all this is about. gesturing for money. >> yeah, it's predictable, republican hypocrisy when it comes to spending and the debt. 8.2 trillion for donald trump, and only a portion of that is pandemic spending, and looking

at president biden well behind trump's pace. the debt ceiling was struck earlier this year, and we have seen these hard-right republicans decide to make that the hill they are going to die that, and that's the reason for this anger. they can, indeed, put on podcast and put out campaign ads and raise money. when you are in the minority, you get to have the bigger flame flower and maybe they are thinking about that for next year. we are days away from the government shutdown. the white house is saying, this is going to happen. they have all along suspected there would be a brinksmanship here. the impeachment inquiry is moving forward and these right wingers is moving forward and they have not agreed to the budget at all. of course, there's anxiety to

that, too, willie, because any kind of shutdown could rattle voters who are already feeling anxious about the economy, and that could play into those concerns, so that's worry for a president when the strength of the economy is paramount. >> yeah, and george, when you look at this group of five holding all of this up, ralph norman is one of them, and this is the insurrection crowd where he texted mark meadows and said have the president invoke martial law. and he participated over four years prior in runaway government spending. >> it's amazing. as the chart showed, trump increased the federal debt by almost the amount that obama raised it in eight years, eight years, really, and twice -- it's

incredible. the secretary of nato is standing by, and we will talk about the war in ukraine and that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." [ horns honking ] ♪ california love ♪ ♪ now let me welcome everybody to the wild wild west ♪ ♪ a state that's untouchable like eliot ness ♪ ♪ say what you say, but give me that bomb beat from dre ♪ ♪ let me serenade the streets of l.a. ♪

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♪ just two days before a possible government shutdown, house republicans plan to hold the first hearing on an impeachment inquiry into president joe biden. a week from tomorrow a house oversight committee spokesperson

said theanel will discuss, quote, constitutional and legal questions surrounding the president's involvement in corruption and abuse of public office. committee chair, james comer, also says he intends to issue a subpoena -- >> i hope we find something. i hope we do. >> oh, god, just -- >> i wonder if he will be bringing arnold, the pig, to the ceremonies. >> he is subpoenaing the bank records for president biden's son and brother. so far republicans presented no evidence showing any wrong doing by the president. >> nothing. nothing. "wall street journal" editorial page even said that. >> in a statement yesterday, the white house blasted the planned hearing, writing that baseless personal attacks on president biden are more important than preventing a government shutdown and the pain it would inflict on american families. you know, if you take the quote of what they plan to do, you literally could apply it to

donald trump a thousand times over, which makes the hypocrisy worst, and -- >> they don't care about that. >> you could apply it to trump, and you can apply it to people around biden but not the president, but they have to do it. and the republican-led committee is expected to grill the attorney general at the hearing today entitled oversight of the u.s. department of justice. it's scheduled to start this morning at 10:00 a.m. garland is expected to express the doj's objectivity despite the inquiry and the anger over the council's probe of hunter biden. it reads in part, quote, our job is not to take orders from the president, from congress or from anyone else about who or what to criminally investigate.

as the president himself has said, and i reaffirm here today, i am not the president's lawyer. i will also add that i am not congress' prosecutor. the justice department works for the american people. >> how shocking that must be to donald trump and his supporters in congress. >> they still don't get it. let's bring in our intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian, who is following this. what more can we expect today? >> good morning, mika and joe. these were some of merrick garland's most extensive comments today, and it's merrick garland and we are grading on a curve here, and it's a former judge. they have been working on this for weeks at the justice department preparing for the hearing because they take it seriously. to them it's a big lie equivalent to the notion the

2020 election was stolen. the idea there are somehow political operatives at the justice department pulling the strings and orchestrating the investigations on donald trump and going easy on hunter biden. there's no evidence to support that. garland has appointed special counsels to the chagrin of the white house, and people joke they won't ever be working for the biden administration, and that humor for any other part of the biden administration. in addition to pushing back on that notion, garland planned to talk specifically about the kind of rhetoric house republicans have been using, which he and others believe is dangerous, because there have been threats. we have reported on this, individual members of the justice department and fbi and their families have been threatened and they have to get security protection. he says, look, all of us at the doj recognize the work comes

with public scrutiny, criticism and legitimate oversight, but he says singling out individual career public servants that are just doing their jobs is dangerous, particularly at a time of increased threats of the safety of the public servants and their families. he goes on to say or will say, we will not be intimidated, we will do our jobs and not back down from defending democracy. this is something they worked on and have given considerable thought here, and it's time for the attorney general to push back against these bogus charges. >> after the mar-a-lago search, you actually had reports of trump and his allies trying to get the names of the fbi agents to put them under pressure. i have to say, jackie, this has to be a shock to donald trump who went around and telling everybody the department of

justice was his department of justice and he had control over the department of justice, and he thought barr was his lawyer. of course, barr, often, despite what he is saying now, barr often acted like he was trump's lawyer. garland's comments very normal to everybody who ever sat in the white house, and it must be a shock to trump and trump supporters, because trump really did believe the justice department who act and arrest his political opponents. >> and garland has sought to be the anti-barr, and a lot of his allies said it has come to be the detriment, and it has hurt some of his investigations and some of the justice department morale at a time when the justice department is clearly

under assault from -- you know, in an active bid by trump and the house gop conference and the republican party. but you will hear today, democrats try to really reinforce this idea that david weiss was a trump appointed u.s. attorney, and he was barr's guy, and he was expected to investigate hunter biden very aggressively. that investigation lasted through to biden, obviously, and that deal fell apart. you will see, i think, merrick garland show he tried to keep an arm's length far away from this as possible. the bottom line that you are going to hear from democrats and from merrick garland as well, is that david weiss did have full authority to pursue whatever charges he wanted. obviously now, he still does, as

we have seen an indictment that was released last week, indicting hunter biden on felony charges. i want to underscore what ken said about the rhetoric here and what this does to the line attorneys, line agents and investigators, all the civil servants and the people that make the justice department run every day. this is something that has come through in a lot of the transcripts we recently seen disputed, and the whistleblower accounts, these two people who really were sort of the cause of a lot of the skepticism of the, now special counsel, david weiss, to begin with. the fear that people are unable to do their jobs because of the threat environment and the rhetoric from republicans, and you will see merrick garland, really try to defend his rank

and file today. >> sounds like merrick garland will be one part high school civics lesson, telling the panel of republicans this is not how it works, and then the defense department, gary shaply, he said he could not go too far because it was the president's son. fbi agents in the same meeting with notes said it was not the way it was communicated to us, and weiss himself, the trump-appointed u.s. attorney said that doesn't happen. we can expect it to be the big focus of the republicans in the meeting today. >> to be clear, look, the irs agents who have come forward are credible figures, and they are not like the alleged fbi

whistleblowers that had problems in their past, and these weather have -- that happens in every federal investigation if you talk to people, and what we have seen, fbi agents have come forward who are also working on the case and told the committee that, no, they didn't see any political interference or anything inappropriate by weiss. to underscore what jackie said, their names have been seized upon by the very republicans who were interviewing them and transcribed interviews, and they have been the subject of threats. one of the prosecutors in the hunter biden matter, and i will not name her again, because she has been the subject of threats, she had to go to the u.s. marshals to seek security protection, and not really is there any evidence to support

the idea at the end of the day that there was political interference in the hunter biden investigation. those very charges are causing danger to line employees at the fbi and justice department. >> george, on a related matter, let's talk about the criminal investigation into hunter biden right now. just get your analysis of the charge that has been filed, and there's some suggestion some sort of tax charge could still come. there have been hints from republicans that maybe something on foreign lobbying as well, and we should stress none of that has been charged so far, but do you think what has happened so far was fair and do you think it would have happened to other americans if their name is not biden? >> well, biden is being treated unfairly, and if you are connected to some figure in some fashion, you are more likely to be connected to scrutiny.

it's the risk of being in the public eye. i think that's partly of what happened here. the ultimate thing that matters, if he is innocent and if the crimes are not that serious, he will win in court or get a light sentence. i don't think he was going to get prison in the first place. the ultimate test that we should ask here is what would donald trump have done if his son got indicted for anything, and any of his kids at that rate? the attorney general would have been gone. it doesn't matter what garland does for the republicans. it doesn't matter. if you appoint a special counsel, you should have done it earlier. or you appointed one to fix the case. if you don't appoint a special counsel, how can you be independent. and you should have done it earlier. if you don't do it, well, oh, well, obviously you are doing it to protect him.

so none of it -- nothing garland will say will matter to these republicans because they are just looking for something, you know, and they will go from one thing to a completely inconsistent thing the next moment. it doesn't matter to them. it's like we were talking about with the budget and everything, it's all about making noise. >> george conway and jackie, thank you very much for being on. coming up, the next guest is no stranger to budget issues in washington, d.c. steny hoyer now joins the conversation when "morning joe" comes right back. " comes right back rsv is out there. for those 60 years and older protect against rsv with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone

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deal worked out. >> publicly, share his idea now, not to waste time or not to lose people, yes, and say that my formula is to stop the war and stop all this tragedy and stop russian aggression, and he said, how he see it, how to push russian from our land, otherwise he's not -- i mean, presenting the global idea of of peace, so the idea is how to obtain the part of our territory and to give putin. that is not the peace formula.

>> that is ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy criticizing donald trump for promising to swiftly stop the russian invasion with specifics. he will address the u.n. security council here in new york today. let's bring in richard haus and mike barnicle. let's look at yesterday before we look at what is happening today, richard. president biden's address focused on ukraine yesterday to the general assembly, and zelenskyy spoke as well. what is the tone and tenure of what is happening this week? >> what the president did say was a shift in words, instead of saying this is a battle between democracies, but he talked about this is about world order and you should not be able to invade other countries and this ought to be a message that resinates,

but i think most countries in the world already made up their decisions about the war. the indias said we will stay close to the russians because that's where we get our arms from and cheap oil, and i don't think there was a lot of changing of minds even though what the president said was right and what zelenskyy said was right. >> potentially, sergey lavrov will be there. >> it's not a negotiating session. if sergey lavrov is there, the u.n. is not a negotiating form and at least it's a talk shop. what we are seeing this week is how sidelined it is. when you have great powers on the sides, the u.n. is -- it's as gridlocked as the streets in new york. >> richard, you once worked for a republican president and a republican administration, it

seems like a long time ago, and in listening to president zelenskyy yesterday, did anything occur to you having to do with the fact that it used to be that the republican party specifically, democrats as well, but the republican party specifically would be saying, yes, yes, go get russia, we're behind you 100%. yet now the fracture within the republican party leads to a real possibility there will be a shutdown of funding for ukraine to continue the war. >> yeah, the republican party used to be the party of national security leadership in the world, and not so much. this romance with russia is bizarre, and donald trump participates in it. three decades ago, what was the biggest issue in the world,

hussein, and once again the same principle is at stake and the republicans changed over the last decades, and they do not believe in leadership, and not standing up for the rule of law. >> richard, i want us to step back and look at the u.n. general assembly this week and the absence of china and russia, obviously, two rivals that consider the united states their enemies. i remember dr. brzezinski back in the 1980s writing that the soviets had no interest in contributing to the world order because they were inferior to the united states economically, militarily and politically and every other way, so for them disruption was their best play, disruption was their only play. disruption, cynically, was a logical play. it was always fine, because

that's who the russians were and soviets were, but now we have the chinese doing the same thing, a sagging economy and feeling like they are on the back heel with the united states and doing the asia pivot. what is the impact with both, china and russia, deciding to delink and disengage in the building out of the world order, which, of course, china was participating in from 1979, when they normalized relations until a few years ago. >> you got it right. it's a really fragmented world and we talk about the international community. there is not an international community. we talk about world order, and there isn't world order. you have china having it clues about taiwan, and russia has dreams about incorporating ukraine in to mother russia, and so principles of world order take a distant backseat to national priorities for both

countries, same as iran and north korea. we reached a place in the world in three decades, if you think about it, from the end of the cold war, things deteriorating badly. there's a less ability to work together and no agreement on what ought to be the basic principles for the rules of road. >> thank you for your insights. coming up, why our next guest says it's groundhog day at the u.s. supreme court. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." big tea drinker? yeah. there's a podcast about tea. he knows and he wants you to know too. i was listening to a podcast on if dogs know they're dogs there's a podcast about that? just like he'd want you to know about allstate. there's a podcast about fly fishing... ...called why is that person doing that? ...it's called tea-rrific. are you listening to a podcast? yeah, it's about multitasking. some people just know there's a podcast about that. those are the people who know you're in good hands with allstate.

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if i win, and let's say somebody comes along on the democrat side and they are looking very strong, i can call my attorney general, i guess, and i have to call him and say, i have to indictment him on anything, just find something. >> that's what he did two weeks before the election, called barr, told barr he should indict

joe biden and biden's family, but that was donald trump saying, if he gets elected president, he's going to just start indicting democrats for no reason. let's bring in staff writer at the new yorker, peter baker, and the author of "the divider." i don't want to -- i always tell people they need to stay calm, but i think based upon reading your book and looking at what donald trump has been saying since 2021, it looks like four more years of him could be constitutionally catastrophic. he's talking about going out and arresting people for no reason. he actually called for my arrest back during his presidency. he's talking about terminating

the constitution. this is amped up considerably, has it not, even since he's left office? >> yeah, joe, i totally agree. i think that, you know, the two key words, like you said, one of them is definitely terminate, as in terminate the constitution. the other is retribution and revenge. trump, as you saw in that clip there, he has made it clear again and again and again, this is the play book he'll be turning to. it's not only, you know, there's a lot of talk from republicans on capitol hill about weaponizing the government. that essentially is donald trump's approach to the white house, which is the idea that it would become a personal instrument of retribution. he actually said in another recent interview, why should they launch an impeachment inquiry of joe biden because they impeached me. it wouldn't be happening if it hadn't happened to me. i think this extreme personalization of power is the way in which donald trump is most an outlier from any president of the united states we can ever imagine. he truly sees no division

between his own strongman aspirations and those for the country. >> so, peter, beyond weaponizing potentially the department of justice to go after his political opponents, which in itself was just a breathtaking breach of norms and the rule of law, we know that the trump team, were he to be reelected are plotting to gut the entire federal bureaucracy. tell us about that, how they plan to reshape washington, reshape the federal government and turn it into an instrument that donald trump could just use at his whim? >> that's exactly right. one of the things about this book that susan and i wrote, the divider, we thought it was a work of history. it turns out to be a week of prologue. look at what he tried to do in his first term and couldn't get away with. including gutting the civil service, turning positions in the government, meant to be apolitical, you know, into political appointees, people who only do his bidding. you will not see in a second

term the kinds of people in the first term who restrained him, people like john kelly or jim mattis, hr mcmaster there not be there in a second term. people who want to attack the deep state, reshape the federal government in his image to make more agencies that are currently quasi independent or autonomous, report directly to him, put more power in the hands of the value office directly into his hands. he wouldn't appreciate if joe biden did it because he doesn't think joe biden should be president, but if he's in there, he wants all power to rest in his hands, and he has mapped out a plan to do that. >> to that point, and you write about in your book, we should take donald trump in his book, when he says things about prosecuting his opponents. there was a sense when he was running last time, he may be elected but all of our institutions will hold, and people will put guardrails around him. those people aren't going to be

there next time, and if john eastman and rudy giuliani is attorney general in his second term, they're going to carry out his orders, along with, perhaps, a speaker, kevin mccarthy, in the house, so what are the fears in washington about a potential second term for donald trump? >> yeah, i think, willie, that's a really important point is imagine donald trump without the guardrails, and that was the view in washington in january of 2017. it was a legitimate view. it turned out to be in many ways a wrong view. in many ways, i think studying what happened, especially at the end of trump's term in office, you come away with a perception not so much that the institutions held as that it was a very, very close run thing as the military folks liked to put it. just one vice president, one attorney general away from donald trump accomplishing, perhaps, the unthinkable thing of seeking to overturn the election. so, for example, impeachment, essentially a dead letter when

it comes to being a meaningful constraint on the president. of course that was the constitution's basic idea for how to constrain a rogue actor in the executive office, and now the meaningful prospect of a senate conviction for any president, certainly including donald trump is basically gone, so trump doesn't really have a real impeachment constraint. if he is somehow elected, remember, that will be after these four criminal indictments, again, an unprecedented thing, and in this hypothetical, that means he somehow survived it, and was reelected. so i think that it's really a much more radical prospect than the first term. >> the paperback edition of the divider is out now. the new yorker, susan glasser and peter baker of "the new york times" thank you both very much for being on this morning. coming up best selling author, lawrence wright joins us with his new book on the

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a live picture of san francisco as you approach 6:00 in the morning there. it is coming up on 9:00 a.m. here in new york city. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." with the war raging in europe and global tensions on the rise, president joe biden took to the stage in new york yesterday with a message of support for ukraine. in his third address, mika, as president, to the u.n. general assembly. >> yeah, he urged allied nations to not abandon the war-torn country. nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell

has the latest. >> we have to stand up to this negative aggression today and deter other would be aggressors tomorrow. >> in an impassioned speech, president biden urged world leaders to stay united behind ukraine, warning of dire consequence ifs russia's aggression goes unchecked. >> if we deny the core principles of the united states to appease an aggressor, can any member in this body feel confident that they are protected. >> reporter: with growing calls in the u.s. and abroad to withhold additional aid to ukraine, ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy appearing in person this year to warn other leaders russia could target them next. >> the goal of the present war against ukraine is to tear our lands, our people, into a weapon against you, against the international rules-based order. >> reporter: today at the u.n.

security council zelenskyy will present his peace plan calling for a full russian withdrawal and payment of reparations to rebuild his devastated question. tomorrow, zelenskyy will travel to washington to meet with president biden at the white house. and plead with congress to continue its military support. republicans are deeply divided over the biden administration's request for an additional $24 billion for ukraine. >> where's the accountability, what is the plan for victory? >> the consequences of pulling the plug are enormous, it will lead to more war not less. >> reporter: it comes as the u.s. unveils a new round of sanctions on iran, targeting the production of iranian drones used by russia against ukraine. one day after the u.s. sanctioned iran's former president and other iranian officials for imprisoning americans including the five detainees freed tuesday who returned to an emotional home coming after years of captivity. >> we have been apart for eight years, and finally we're

together, and it's just completely unbelievable. >> nbc's andrea mitchell reporting there. joining us now in studio is nato secretary general jens stoltenberg, mr. secretary general, good morning, good to have you with us. we had president biden and president zelenskyy both making case for ukraine, for continuing support of ukraine. there has been some wavering even here in america after a year and a half, how much money is going to ukraine. how do you make that case that it is important, and indeed, an investment to support ukraine? >> the main message is that we support ukraine because it's in our security interest to ensure that the president putin doesn't win in ukraine. if he wins, it will be a tragedy for ukrainians, but it will also be dangerous for us and make the world more dangerous because then the message to putin, but also to beijing is that when

they use force, when they invade another country, when they violate martial law, then they get what they want, so we will become more vulnerable if putin wins. a win for russia will be a win for china, and therefore we need to invest in our security by supporting ukraine. >> among the many miscalculations made ahead of this war by vladimir putin is that the west would back away. it would not support ukraine in the way that it has, and in fact, your institution, nato, has only grown and become stronger with the addition of finland, pending addition of sweden and perhaps down the road, as you said, ukraine itself. first of all, are you confident that turkey will continue in its support of sweden and that sweden will, in fact, stand up and be a member of nato? >> turkey made it clear at the nato summit in july, and president erdogan stated publicly that he will submit to the papers of ratification of

swedish membership. he stated also that will happen as soon as possible. and the turkish parliament will convene later this fall, and deliver what they have promised. and swedish membership, for nato, and it also sends a very clear message to putin, that he went to war because he wanted less nato. he wanted nato store to be closed. what he gets is the exact opposite. he gets more nato presence and more troops and nato presence there, but also gets more nato membership. finland has already joined, and with finland and nato, we have doubled our border with russia, and soon also with sweden, and demonstrates he gets exactly the opposite of what he wanted. >> the reality of nato today is different than what people assumed it would be three or four years ago. given your leadership, president biden's leadership, it's a

strong coalition told against russia in defense of ukraine. but what is the sense within nato membership, within europe, any level of concern about the potential of a return to the politics of the past, given the american elections that are coming up next year? >> well, for me to comment on domestic political issues in the united states, what i can say is that it is in the security interest of the united states to have a strong nato. it's good for europe, but also good for north america and the united states. especially if you are concerned about china. the science of their economy, the investments in new modern capabilities by china, of course, is a challenge to all of us, but remember that the united states has something that no other major power ha a that is more than 30 friend and allies in nato. russia doesn't have that. china doesn't have that. and together, europe and north

america, we are 50% of the world's global economy. gdp, and 50% of the world's might, so as long as we stand together, we are safe. we can handle, tackle any challenge and any threat, and that's also in the security interest of the united states. >> so you're a veteran of u.n. week when leaders from all around the world come together here in new york city. and they all have something to say or try to have something to say to have it noticed. were you surprised at all about the remarks of the president of iran, which are basically threatening towards the united states yesterday from the podium of the u.n.? >> well, we have heard similar messages from iran before, and it just demonstrates the importance of investing in our security, partly by spending, allies are doing, and european allies are now really stepping up the defense spending across europe and canada, and also by staying together in nato because

then we're more able, better prepared to deal with those threats and challenges from, for instance, iran. >> mika. >> mr. secretary general, i'm curious just, i want to go back to the sweden issue because you have said, you know, as long as we stand together we can keep the world safe. you're warning of a long war in ukraine. isn't time of the essence to get the nations like sweden -- this was supposed to be a done deal, was it not? what more can you do or say to get the two countries that are standing in the way of sweden in line in terms of nato unity? >> first of all we need to remember that so far, this has been the quickest succession forces in nato's modern history. finland and sweden applied in last may, june, the nato summit in madrid. both were invited. finland is a full fledged

member. sweden has all the -- started to be very much integrated because when they are invited they get invitee status and i expect the final radification to happen in turkey season because that is what president erdogan stated clearly when we had the nato summit in july. i expect sweden to be a full fledged member in the near future, that's what we have agreed as allies. >> i'm curious how you're looking at the long scope of this war in ukraine, which is to say president biden has prepared the american people that it's going to be a long haul. we need to continue our support. do you see a solution through vladimir putin, a guy who has shown no willingness to sit down and discuss handing back territory he has taken or pulling out of ukraine. how do you see this in a year or

two years or five years, how does this get resolved in a way that's satisfactory to you at nato and to the west? >> first of all, i think we all need to recognize that wars are by nature, unpredictable. >> right. >> no one can say today with certainty how and when this war will end. surprises may happen, but so far we have seen no indication from the russian side that they're really willing to sit down and to negotiate to some kind of just, lasting peace. they're preparing for more war, so the only thing we know is that the stronger ukraine is, the more land they're able to liberate, the stronger the hand at the negotiating table. if we want a negotiated solution, that ensures that ukraine survives as a sovereign democratic nation in europe, then we need to support ukraine with military aid, and that's exactly what we're doing. so the only way to convince putin that he can not win on the

battlefield has to sit down and negotiate a fair and balanced or enduring peace is to support ukraine, and that's exactly what european allies and the united states are doing. >> nato secretary general jens stoltenberg, thank you very much for being back on the show today. we appreciate it. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. returning now to a story we first brought you yesterday. "the new york times" has now confirmed reporting from abc news that an ex-trump aide told federal investigators that the former president wrote to do lists for her on classified documents. the outlet site cites several sources familiar with statements from molly michael who worked for donald trump until last fall. the "times" also confirms that after the president became aware that the fbi wanted to interview michael, he allegedly told her, quote, you know nothing about the boxes containing classified

documents. in response to the new allegations, a trump spokesperson said that the reporting comes from sources, who, quote, lack proper context and relevant information. willie. >> an awful lot of sources, though. rudy giuliani, meanwhile, his own lawyer is suing him for unpaid legal fees. that's according to a lawsuit from robert costello who alleges giuliani failed to pay him and his law firm for legal services related to election interference cases in georgia and washington and in a variety of other legal matters. they claim giuliani is on the hook for nearly $4 million in outstanding fees and that he's only paid a fraction of the tab, about $214,000 since november of 2019, when he retained costello. however, the complaint does say giuliani made a partial payment of $10,000 last week. in response, giuliani criticized the lawsuit a costello saying, quote, i can't expre h personally hurt i am byha bob

costello has done. it's a real shame when lawyers do things like this, and all i will say is their bill is in excess of anything approaching appropriate fees. donald trump raised money to help with giuliani's legal defense fund. unclear how much the event actually raised for giuliani personally, but clearly he is having some trouble with his bills, mika. >> i mean, who didn't see this coming. that is as pathetic as this whole situation is with rudy giuliani. it was so obvious trump was not going to pay any of their legal bills, holding fundraisers instead, and now he's getting sued. didn't see it coming, did you. all right, house republicans continue to fight amongst themselves over two critical bills to fund the military and full government. on the government funding front, a vote planned for yesterday was scrapped after roughly a dozen republicans said they would not support it.

and some freedom caucus members are threatening to oust speaker kevin mccarthy if their demands are not met. there are fewer than 11 days left before the government funding expires, and a full shutdown begins. regarding the military spending bill, five republicans joined all democrats to kill a vote just to debate the defense funding measure. all five cited spending as their main reason for voting no. they care now. house speaker kevin mccarthy and some republican members who represent biden won districts, aired their frustration yesterday. >> you're asking me a lot of questions. why are they voting against being -- they're voting against even bringing the bill up to have a discussion about it, to vote on it. if you're opposed to the bill, vote on the bill at the end, you have more than 170 amendments, you can change it if you don't like it.

the idea that you vote against a bill to even bring it up, that doesn't make sense to me. >> i'm disappointed, pissed off, our inability to bring the package to a floor vote because of these five individuals who put their agendas ahead of the basic requirement's of our troops is extremely upsetting to us. it's a bad look to not get a rule through the floor and when you do that, what you have effectively done is hand the keys of the majority over to the minority. >> it's not conservative republicanism. this is stupidity. the idea that we're going to shut the government down when we don't control the senate. we don't control the white house. these people can't define a win. they don't know how to take yes for an answer. it's a clown show. you keep running lunatics, you're going to be in this position. >> let's bring in democratic congressman steny hoyer, we appreciate your coming on the show this morning.

what's the way forward? >> well, the way forward really is quite clear and quite simple. rather than simply want to do it on your own when the republican party has shown itself to be a deeply divisive and dysfunctional party, do john boehner and ryan did from time to time. look, we've got to come to an agreement. they did that on the debt limit, while holding hostage the credit worthiness of the united states, they ultimately made a deal through their speaker, their elected speaker with biden and with the senate republicans and made a deal. then what happened? this group of as one of the republicans said, lunatics, clowns, that was their words, not mine, said, look, okay, we're going to make a deal, and let's do it. 165 democrats voted with 147 republicans, and over 300 people

made sure that the credit worthiness of the united states was maintained. unfortunately, starting in 1995, it's been a policy of the republican party, led by gingrich in 95 to use shutdowns as a leverage point of getting their way. they have shut down the government some 80 days since 1995 when they did a 19-day shutdown. here we are, i believe that the majority of republicans want to see a functional congress. they can do that easily, but they'll have to, a, keep their deal that mccarthy made and 314 members of the house voted for, just keep the deal. >> right. >> and you'll be able to pass something. >> but they have this very willful crowd that don't care about the functioning of the government, the responsibility to the national security or the responsibility to the domestic policies. >> that's what i want to ask you

about, a willful crowd because you were talking about speaker boehner and paul ryan. i mean, the reality is whistleblower dealing with matt gaetz, kevin mccarthy, lauren boebert, marjorie taylor greene. these are the loudest voices and -- >> but they can only do that because the overwhelming majority of the house and house republicans who are angry with them don't say, okay, let's keep our deals, let's talk to one another. let's have some trust, and we will see bipartisan movement forward. i am hopeful that ultimately mccarthy, who did that on the debt limit, he knew the debt limit should not be breached, and he did the responsible thing. i hope that that happens in the near future because we ought not to allow the american people to be held hostage by these very willful, irresponsible members who total maybe 20 -- there were only 5 yesterday, but 20 out of

435. that's unacceptable. it's like the senate having 99 people thinking that the military leaders ought to be confirmed and we ought not to undermine, again, the national security, and we ought to be rational, are allowing one guy, one guy, to hold up and put our security at risk. it's not responsible way to run a party or a congress. >> congressman, good morning. it's good to see you. so you have been in that building. you have been working there for some time. you've seen a lot. you've watched nancy pelosi as speaker, people like john boehner lead his party when shed the gavel. what's your assessment of kevin mccarthy as speaker, what he's up against with this freedom caucus, and how he's handling them so far. obviously they are treating him with a lot of disrespect, even out in public saying, you know, you are not in compliance. we gave you your job, you need to do what we tell you to do. what is he dealing with in that

caucus, and how is he handling that? >> they didn't give him his job, and we ought to send that message to congress to anybody who's this willful to undermine the overwhelming majority that want to move forward. we don't like the defense bill. there are a lot of irrational and irrelevant things in regard to our national security, that aside, i think what speaker mccarthy needs to do is frankly what john boehner and paul ryan, and newt gingrich did in 1998. he did a perfectionist caucus, what would then be the freedom caucus people, we want your way, but we don't have the votes, and the american public has elected republicans, democrats, and they expect us to make the government work, so he did. and he and clinton made a deal. he kept it. we moved forward. we funded the government, we passed the budget. i hope speaker mccarthy will do that as well.

because it is irresponsible, in my opinion, for the overwhelming majority of republicans to allow a very small, willful, irresponsible group of people to undermine the confidence not only of the american people but of the international community and the ability of democracy to work in the congress of the united states and the majority to rule, a majority, in this congress, democrat and republican, want to see us move forward, and make sure the government is funded and serving the american people. >> so congressman hoyer, you arrived in the united states capitol to represent prince george's county, maryland, and other suburban elements of maryland, and tip o'neill was speaker of the house when you arrived. >> yes, 1981. >> you've seen a lot, you've experienced a lot, but have you ever seen a moment in your lifetime in congress when a specific portion of one political party, a specific portion of the republican party

seemingly has been devoted to destroying government? >> i'm going to say no because i think it is more stark at this point in time, but i want to say, and repeat, it's been the policy of the republican party in the congress and the house of representatives in particular under newt gingrich and others not necessarily speakers, but to use a shutdown as a cudgel to force the minority to do things it wanted done. that irresponsibility, the shutdown of government has been 80 days under republicans for significant periods of time over government spending, over the affordable care act, and other issues that they were focused on. when the majority of the congress wanted to make a compromise and move forward. they shouldn't let that happen

to the united states senate, and they shouldn't let it happen here in the house of representatives, and i'm hopeful that speaker mccarthy and a majority of the house republicans, overwhelming majority of house republicans will act in a responsible way, will come together. we made a deal on the debt limit. we want to see that debt deal kept. that was at funding levels at fiscal year '23, and the republicans abandoned that, why did they abandon it? the small willful majority shut down the house of representatives for a week, and essentially shut it down last week because of their refusal to cooperate. >> they've only got ten days to sort this out. we'll see if they do it, congressman steny hoyer of maryland, thank you for your time this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you very much. coming up next, los angeles angels superstar, show-- show

hay ohtani has surgery: and pulitzer prize winning author, lawrence wright joins us with his new book. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. w book you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. those are e who know to choose allstate. the service road is faster. gps: turn left. not happening. he knows better than any gps. and he'd point you in allstate's direction. go all the way down the road, past the big gray warehouse. gps: take the next exit. you're not from around here, so you don't know the back roads. i don't want to be late for the party. i'm gonna save us five minutes. some people just know what road to take. gps: you're on the fastest route. those are the people who know safe drivers save 40% with allstate. we always had questions. who do we belong to? who are our ancestors? i know we have them. oh my god, here it is. when i found that immigration record on ancestry®, it was amazing. everything was there. the u.s. was in dire need of nurses during world war ii. tía amalia as a nurse in el salvador decided to answer that call. it's a lot of excitement finding something new. i feel like a time traveler.

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texas is a mosaic of cultures, which overlap in several parts of the state and form layers, with the darker layers on the bottom. the cultures are black, chican, suburban and kicker. texas is not a civilized place. texasans shoot each other a lot. different types do not like each other, nor do they pretend to. >> that was the voice of the late legendary texas journalist, molly ivans, strong texas women like ivans and the colorful characters that live in the lone star state and who work in the

state government are the subject of a new novel called "mr. texas," which takes a satirical look into the world of texas politics, and boy do we need a latch today. joining us now is the book's author, pulitzer prize winning writer, lawrence wright. lawrence, so this took like 25 years because mr. texas before mr. texas became a novel, it was a tv series concept, broadway musical concept, a movie script, and now a novel. tell us about that process, but also the historical figures, the political figures who inspired mr. texas. >> this started back in the anne richards era. molly was still a figure in austin, and i had the idea that the characters that inhabit our political world in texas are whatever you think of them, they are larger than life. and oftentimes there's a plausibility problem because they're so crazy that to try to

satirize them, you know, is hard to do sometimes. i decided i would select the house of representatives. it's my favorite political body . and i went to see, at that time, the speaker of the house was pete laney. a democrat, and the lieutenant governor was bob bullock, also a democrat, and george bush became the governor after anne, and so i went in to talk to the speaker, and i had this idea of writing a movie or television series. he said it's been the dream of my life to have a television series set in the house of representatives. here i am. you know. it's gone a long way since then, and has wound up as a novel. >> we talk about some of the real life characters. i was just reading through remembering the one you mentioned, mike martin. >> oh, yeah. >> can you tell us story of mike martin, part of the inspiration? >> yeah, he was a representative from longview, texas, and he

was, i guess, worried about his reelection chances, so he had his cousin shoot him, to get the sympathy vote. he said he was shot by the mafia, which we don't have much of in texas, and then the texas rangers tracked him down and he was hiding in his mother's stereo cabinet. and molly ivans said he always did want to be the speaker. >> did he win reelection? did it work? >> no. >> it didn't work. let's talk about the protagonist, sonny lamb, who is he, and how much of the real life characters are built into him? >> there's a little bit of mr. smith goes to washington, but sonny comes to washington, he has a dream. he wants to be somebody, and he also has this bill that he's hoping to pass, desalination, we have a salty aquifer in a very drought ridden part of the state, and he's recruited by a

lobbyist who has other plans for him. the lobbyist sees him as his pet vote, and so the clash between these two entities becomes the education of sonny lamb, about the real world of politics. >> you know, lawrence all of this is in front of your eyes for all of your years living in texas. i'm thinking of things that i've seen in state legislatures like in massachusetts. the characters, the stories, how long did it take you to finally assembly this as a novel, years, 25 years? >> no, it didn't take that long. honestly, i have been working on this project for a long time. >> yeah. >> and when i started, sonny was a democrat because there were democrats in texas back then. but it's in all of these different incarnations, and i've, you know, started as a movie script. then it became a play, and we had a couple of productions of that, and then a broadway

producer came down and said it should be a musical, and i started writing music, and she changed her mind saying it should be a television series, i sold a pilot to hbo, and i called my agent, and said what should i do, podcast. finally i thought, wait a minute, i can write a novel. i know i can get that done, but all of that long tale that i am describing, mike, gave me more weapons to use in a novel. >> i'm thinking about big bob bigby, your speaker of the house in this, and i'm thinking about a specific speaker, and messages to the legislature. years ago, there was an important bill before the legislature, it was a close vote, he needed a vote from the fellow, state representative called him up and gave him an envelope, he said go back and look at the envelope, and i want you to vote yes, and he had $5,100 bills in the envelope, and the guy stood up on the floor after looking at envelope

asked for a recess, approached the speaker during the recess, i've got to give it back to you. he said, what's wrong. i can't cash those bills in my district, i need smaller bills. the stories in these legislatures. >> all the action in politics really is in the states, and we had a similar situation where a chicken magnet beau pilgrim walked on the floor of the state senate and passed out checks of $10,000 on the floor. >> just out in the open. can i ask you about a real life character, ken paxton, the attorney general and what just happened a few days ago in texas where there were articles of impeachment brought up against him, some democrats saying he's the most corrupt politician they had seen in texas, which is saying something. for a national audience tuning into this, what were the dynamics at play there around paxton?

>> first of all, how grateful i am for keeping texas in the news. >> there you go. >> ken paxton was indicted eight years ago on securities fraud and that has never come to trial. in many respects, this battle between this house of representatives, which impeached him with an overwhelming vote, an overwhelming vote of republicans, and this goes into the senate, and dies because dan pat republic, the lieutenant governor, doesn't like the house of representatives, and, you know, they don't speak to each other. the house of representatives doesn't call the senate the senate, they call it the other place, and so during this session in particular, the spat between dan patrick, and dave phelan, the speaker of the house became quite personal. we no longer have partisan divisions in texas. we have personal ones, but on the partisan level, you know,

there is a split in the republican party. it was really evident in this battle, but it's true, you know, in republican parties in states all over the country. >> the novel "mr. texas," is out now. lawrence wright, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. congratulations on the novel. thank you. >> happy to be here. thank you, guys. >> we'll see you. coming up, what colorado coach deion sanders is saying about an opponent receiving death threats over a play in a college football game. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes right back. game. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes right back

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the sun is up over los angeles, 6:39 in the morning. 9:39 here in new york city. well, l.a. fans, angels fans, some news for you. two-way superstar shohei ohtani

likely will not pitch again until the 2025 season. ohtani who cleared out his locker at angels stadium over the weekend underwent season ending surgery to repair the torn ligament in his throwing elbow that removed him as a threat from the mound last month. his doctor says he expects the player will be available as a hitter on opening day next year, and will return to the mound as a pitcher in 2025. ohtani announced he had the procedure in a post on instagram writing, quote, it was very unfortunate that i could not finish out the year on the field, but i will be rooting on the boys until the end. i will work as hard as i can and do my best to come back to the diamond stronger than ever. mike, best player in baseball, obviously a free agent, too, i guess the question for him is what does this do to what's expected to be a monster record setting deal for him. >> it would offer the finances of what he's going to be offered. it will be a massive amount, but prior to the surgery, whether it

was tommy john or nerve surgery, we don't know. but you were betting on two magnificent players, a pitcher and a hitter, and now you're basically bidding on one player, a hitter and pitcher in the future. we'll see. it will probably cost him 50 or a hundred million dollars. >> trim him down to half a billion on his deal maybe. meanwhile in colorado, police reportedly are investigating death threats against a member of the colorado state university football team and his family. the threats began after senior defensive back henry blackburn was flagged for a late hit during saturday's game against the university of colorado in boulder. left colorado's two-way star travis hunter with a serious injury to his liver. cell phone numbers for blackburn and his mother reportedly were published on the internet as were the addresses for blackburn on campus and his family's home. colorado coach and pro football

hall of famer deion sanders told colorado fans and people making the threats to knock it off. >> he made a tremendous hit on travis on the sideline. you could call it dirty, he was just playing the game of football. whatever it was, it does not constitute that he should be receiving death threats. he does not deserve a death threat over a game. at the end of the day, this is a game. someone must win. someone must lose. everybody continues their life the next day. very unfortunate. i'm saddened, if there's any of our fans that's on the other side of those threats, i would hope and pray not, but that kid was just playing the best of his ability and he made a mistake. >> good for coach there, mike, and as we said earlier, travis hunter, the young man on colorado who took the hit, he was just playing football, he

wasn't helmet to helmet or anything like that. an important thing for deion sanders to do there. >> you're exactly right on the hit, by the way, as well as exactly right on deion sanders and what he said. the hit was not unusual for football. it wasn't use of hands, it wasn't use of the helmet. it wasn't spearing. the bottom line is football it a violent sport. i have had the opportunity to stand on the sidelines of a professional football game. it's astounding. >> they're small car accidents. >> and good for deion sanders for stepping in and telling people to just quit with that. >> coming up next, our guest says it's groundhog day at the supreme court. we'll explain what she means by that straight ahead on "morning joe." at she means by at straight ahead on "morning joe.

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lawsuit against west point. the group, students for fair admissions, argues that the court's ruling which struck down race conscious college admissions should also apply to the nation's military academies. it's possible this new lawsuit could also make its way to the supreme court. joining us now, slate senior editor and msnbc law and politics analyst, dahlia lithwick, she's also author of "lady justice, women, the law and the battle to save america," which is now out in paperback. we have so much to talk to you about, but let's first talk about this new lawsuit against west point, and in the grand scheme of things, the impact of the supreme court's decision. >> good morning, mika. i mean, i think the real story here is that it used to take ten years for a justice to put a winking note in an opinion. clarence thomas in 1997 would be like, huh, someone should bring a gun case saying that the

second amendment is an individual right, ten years later, you get the case. now we get the winking note in the opinion and three months later we get the case, and so you're seeing that here where there was a carve out in that big affirmative action decision that effectively gutted affirmative action in june that said, well, this doesn't apply to military academies, so, here we are, before the ink is dry, going after military academies. >> and so what are the prospects for this lawsuit. obviously they were successful going after harvard and north carolina with wide ranging impacts to schools across the country. do they appear like they're on a fast track with the military academies as well? >> i mean, this was the obvious follow on. hasn't been briefed s case, it hasn't been argued, they're not parties to this case. he has a little note in the majority opinion in the last affirmative action case suggesting that there's different interests at work here in military academies. so he's left himself the out,

but i think it's also worth saying we have brief after brief after brief since we've been having affirmative action cases from the military, from high ranking former military folks saying we must have an office corps that is reflective of what the soldiers are. we remember what happened in vietnam when we had 2% african american officers and huge proportions of black soldiers serving, and there was a huge meltdown in the military. the military is aware of that. they keep filing briefs including in that last case in june saying this is serious. there's a national security interest here, so whether john roberts takes that seriously or whether this was just kind of a wink to bring the next case, i guess we're going to find out. >> a lot of life has to do with marketing and imagery and everything like that and things that people read and hear that appeal to them. so the title "students for fair admission," the ordinary person is going to say me.

well, that sounds fair. i want that group in on this. who are they? >> well, i mean, this is a group that is constructed by a millionaire in texas called ed bloom. if you remember back to the abigail fisher case that lost at the supreme court. that was his case too. the same guy. he essentially puts together these groups and says i'm going to find -- as he did in this west point case -- two people who want to apply. they're white, they say they're not going to get a fair shot under the equal protection clause. he essentially cherry picks somebody who feels that they would get that slot but for affirmative action, and as i said, he's lost and lost and lost until he won. >> so this lawsuit names the department of defense and defense secretary lloyd austin himself as defendants in this case, so we'll see how that moves forward. i want to talk about your lates piece for slate.

it's called brett kavanaugh's whoop psys forcing ground hog day. the state of alabama openly defying a ruling of the supreme court. >> this is a different iteration, same problem. before the ink is dry on the opinion in the big, big section 2 of the voting rights case that surprised a lot of people because john roberts and brett kavanaugh end up siding with the liberals in this instance, and they say alabama, you have a racial gerrymander, you have to fix it under section 2 of the voting rights act, so fix it. so here we are, alabama, the republican legislature just look at that opinion and says, yeah, no, we're just not doing it. we're not going to redraw our maps. they come rocketing back to the supreme court. what's the theory? the theory is brett kavanaugh had a concurrence that said if we had brought this case under a d different theory, neither argue nor brief, we might win,

so we think we're going to win. they think they're going to win either because they have inside intel about what brett kavanaugh's going to do, and there's some reporting suggesting that, but even more depressingly they think they're going to win because they think they're going to win. again, the idea that there was a time when the supreme court handed down an order, said draw new maps. you violate section 2 of the voting rights act and the state drew new maps. now we're in a moment that everyone thinks they have a sure thing going at the supreme court so why not roll the dice. >> can they do that? can you just not enforce in your state a ruing from the supreme court? >> i had mark elias on my podcast last week, and he said this is literally like little rock. this is massive resistance. this is states refusing to comply with court orders, so the answer is unless you send in the national guard like we did last time, you can in fact nullify a

supreme court order, and i think in some ways what's scary is how easy it is to do that. >> wow, both of these cases extraordinary, we'll be watching them closely. the book "lady justice: women, the law and the battle to save america" is out now in paperback. coming up, live pictures from capitol hill where attorney general merrick garland in a short time will testify before the house judiciary committee in which you can bet will be explosive with previously unknown levels of grand standing. a preview of that next on "morning joe." "morning joe." age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein.

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merrick garland. our job is to uphold the rule of law. our job, willie, is to follow the facts and the law wherever they lead, and that is what we do. it sounds like he's going to be sending back some simple truths, willie geist, to the judiciary committee. >> yeah, i mean, reading the excerpts of his testimony which will start a couple of minutes from now, as you can see the members of congress taking their seats, led by jim jordan, matt gaetz. it sounds like a high school civics lessons. because you have suggested that i work for the president of the united states that's wrong. i'm going to separate myself on a point of counsel who happens to be a trump appointed attorney. >> stay tuned for a couple of hours of pure performance art on

the republicans' part. that's all this is going to be. >> okay, we'll watch it. that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. verage after a quick final break. ard) yeah, that's on howard's campus. ohhh, she's so powerful, she carried on the family legacy. we were blown away. (chuckles) i not only was a student and an undergrad, but i've been a professor there for twenty years, so it's really a special moment to know that i had a family member who over a hundred years prior have walk these grounds. it's deeply uplifting. yes, it is. we're walking in their footsteps. tired muscles and joints were keeping me from doing the things i loved most. not anymore. blue-emu gave me my freedom back. it supports healthy muscles and joints. shop our expanded family of products at major online retailers.

dude? dog food in the fridge? it's not dog food. it's freshpet. real meat. real veggies. real weird. he was bad luck anyway. right now on "ana cabrera reports," breaking news from capitol hill, attorney general merrick garland taking the hot seat as we come on the air. he is about to testify before the house judiciary committee