>> reporter: demos of the f-35 b aircraft posted by lockheed martin show's ability to hover and land if a vertical column. as for the truelocks, they said they saw the plane in tact and didn't think much about a boom they heard later until they heard reports of a missing fighter jet the next day. what call did you make? >> i called, but it wasn't -- it probably wasn't until 4:00-ish and i think they had already zeroed in about where it was, you know, at that point. >> reporter: hours later, the debris field was confirmed. >> sam brock, thank you very much. and that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. on capitol hill today, the justice department, it really exists for those of us on earth one, came crashing up against

the fictitious alternate reality of a supposedly weaponized justice department on which the republican party lives. merrick garland was before the committee chaired by ohio republican jim jordan. he reiterated the independence of the justice department. >> our job is not to take orders from the president, from congress, or from anyone else about who or what we criminally investigate. as the president said and i reaffirmed today, i am not a president's lawyer, i will add i am not congress' prosecutor. >> now, over to the news on earth two. republicans made it clear before the hearing started with members telling reporters that nothing, nothing merrick garland could or would say today was going to satisfy them, but they would

pedal so peddle all sorts of conspiracy theories. the fix is in. what jim jordan had to say, even as garland said over and over and over again that there was no interference in the hunter biden case. >> has anyone from the white house provided direction at any time to you personally or to any senior officials at the doj regarding how the hunter biden investigation was to be carried out? >> no. i'll say again, termination of where to cases and which kinds of cases to bring was left to mr. weiss. this investigation was being conducted by mr. weiss, an appointee of president trump. you will at the appropriate time have the opportunity to ask mr. weiss that question. >> but declarative, definitive

answer wasn't enough for republicans. when republican member went so far as to suggest that merrick garland should be held in contempt of congress. the response, here is what a democratic member of the committee, congressman eric swalwell, had to say. >> that is quite rich, because the guy who is leaving the hearing room right now, mr. jordan, is about 500 days into evading his subpoena. about 500 days. so if we're going to talk about contempt of congress, let's get real. are you serious that jim jordan, a witness to one of the greatest crimes ever committed in america, a crime where more prosecutions have occurred than any crime committed in america refuses to help his country and we're going to get lectured about subpoena compliance and contempt of congress? jim jordan won't even honor a lawful subpoena. are you kidding me? are you kidding me? there's no credibility on that

side. >> merrick garland also had to swat down right wing conspiracy theories including the notion that doj is targeting people of faith. >> attorney general, through the chair i ask you do you agree that traditional catholics are violent extremists? >> i have no idea what you're -- what the traditional means here. let me just -- >> catholics who go to church. >> may i answer your question? >> yes, sir. >> the idea that someone with my family background would discriminate against any religion is so outrageous, so absurd that -- >> mr. attorney general, it was your fbi that -- >> the gap between life on earth one and life on earth two on full glorious display today. the hearing about the justice department on capitol hill is where we begin. from "the new york times," washington correspondent mike schmidt is with us. joining us, former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the u.s. department of justice, mary

mccourt. with me at the table, former chief spokesman for doj and former senior adviser to garland who is bursting with analysis, and top state department official during the obama administration, msnbc political analyst rick stengel here for the hour. >> so, this was spicy garland. and i'm glad that the public got a chance to see that. this is what we call him when he shows up at these types of meetings at doj. what was so important here is that i think what animated him the most are these attacks against doj prosecutors, and agents. nicolle, i remember when i was at doj, there were two moments in particular that moved the attorney general. the first was when he had a phone call with the family of george floyd after that first federal indictment. but the second concerned a conversation about the security of doj personnel. and what we have seen in recent

months since i left is even an increase in uptick of those threats and not just against prosecutors and agents themselves, but also their families. so what we saw today, i think was an attorney general that was frustrated, really, with the downstream impact of these spur ilous charges. >> my gut would have been to call that an oxymoron. i'll let you prove your case. let me show you some of this, this was attorney general merrick garland being asked by congressman nadler about the dangers of defunding the justice department. let me play this first. >> funding the fbi would leave the united states naked to the influence of the chinese communist party, to the attacks by iranians on american citizens, and attempts to

assassinate former officials, to the russian aggression, to north korean cyberattacks, to violent crime in the united states, which the fbi helps to fight against, to all kinds of espionage, to domestic violent extremists who have attacked our churches, our synagogues, our mosques, and who have killed individuals out of racial hatred. i just -- i cannot imagine the consequences of defunding the fbi, they would be catastrophic. >> straight talk there. >> really straight talk. and in many ways what we saw were different conversations, nicolle. these people were talking past each other. what we were talking about earlier is that in many senses, in one sense you have the attorney general talking about

criminal investigations, not just in this clip, but throughout the hearing. criminal investigations begin with facts, and the facts of prosecutors where to go. what we see on capitol hill are quite different with political investigations, with political investigations, members of congress start with the end in mind, and then they try to fill in the facts to prove their narrative and so that's what we saw throughout this hearing. we saw crazy things, crazy notions of republicans suggesting that defunding the fbi is the right way to go, but none of this, none of this is the appropriate conversation that this country should be having right now. >> well, it is not the conversation that the whole country is having, mary mccourt. it is the conversation we're having on earth two, where maga

republicans live. i want to show you a little bit more about what merrick garland had to say about who the real victims are of this deep state conspiracy. >> as a rhetoric regarding the biden case, does it have any base nice reality? basis in reality? >> no, it does not. >> how does this affect your ability to do your work, doj and fbi employees? >> the agents of the fbi and the prosecutors understand that criticism comes with their job. and they will continue to do their jobs without fear or favor. but the idea of threatening their safety or that of their families is just abhorrent. >> and yet, mary, that's where we are with an unprecedented threat level underwhich fbi agents are working, those working on a hunter biden case

have a unit erected to protect the fbi from those threats, unprecedented threat level against the irs, doj and unprecedented amount of level being spent by members of congress to protect them from these threats. what did you make of this part of the hearing today? >> so, i -- two takeaways. one is that -- we talked about this before -- this used to be the party of law and order, right? respect for the fbi, respect for the department of justice, respect for the rule of law, and that just seems to be out the window. but maybe even more startling than that is the types of questions and the types of rhetoric filled dialogue that many on the republican side of this committee were directing those questions, they were directing to merrick garland, many weren't questions at all. they're just rhetoric and

commentary, they sound so much like what i see from researchers who spend their time in the online extremist milieu. >> wow. >> conspiracy theories, nods to violence on those online -- in that online space, the talk about violence is much more direct than some of what we saw here. but, it is almost like the members of congress are just careful enough to stop right before that last sentence or that last phrase directing violence. but everything that is animating extremists online and agitating them toward violence and saying things that are very, very clearly threatening and violent, it is the same thing you're hearing here. conspiracies about the hunter biden investigation, conspiracies about the trump investigation, conspiracies about the fbi staging january 6th. it is just -- it is just lies

and it is just of a piece, if you could put these things side by side, the kinds of things that get sent to me from online researchers in these forums that most of us have never even heard of before, unless you to this kind of work, it is the same thing you're hearing from people like jim jordan. >> and, mary, if you could just tell me the consequence of hearing the conspiracy theories that fuel your violent fantasies come out of the mouth of elected leaders. >> well, it is just a permission system for those who are in those online spaces, suggesting violence, right, suggesting what should happen to fbi agents, what should happen to jack smith, his team of prosecutors, and their families. what should happen to the judges in these cases. and then it goes beyond that. beyond the department of justice. what should happen to election officials, what should happen to other elected officials, and that is regardless of party. as we talked about before, oftentimes the harshest threats

and harshest rhetoric is against republicans because i guess of some notion they have been traitorous to the party at this time. and i tend to try not to divide things up into republican and democrat because i think there are republicans that are not maga, that are not trump, but when you look at a hearing like this, and you see so many of them engaging in this, giving permission to extremists out there, really justifying their threats and violence, it is unforgivable, it is shameful, and we just have fallen so far. i mean, it is just amazing. there have always been fiery people on capitol hill that during oversight hearings will push attorneys general, they'll push the fbi director, push secretaries of the different departments of the federal government, but -- and they'll disagree. but it is usually so much more civil and it is usually based at least on some version of fact that exists as you say on earth

one and not something that is entirely made up. there are legitimate things to ask attorney general garland about. cori bush raised some of them. zoe lofgren raised some of them. let's hear the answers to those legitimate concerns. let's have the debate about the things that are true oversight, things like the government's -- the reauthorization of the 702 surveillance program. there have been some problems with it. what are the acceptable reforms to that? those are legitimate questions. this made up stuff, it is a waste of everyone's time. >> i think, you know, mike, it also illustrates the discomfort that some members have of being in the majority. it is more acceptable to be delusional and deranged if you're a minority member using your time to get a good sound bite for the media. it felt the democrats who were in the minority to do some of the only fact checking. let me play you an attempt to fact check and sort of get under

the root balls of the most rabid conspiracies about hunter biden. >> who appointed mr. weiss? >> mr. trump was the last person who appointed mr. weiss to the position of u.s. attorney. i appointed him to the position of special counsel last month. >> who initially appointed john durham? >> mr. durham was, i believe, also appointed by president trump. and mr. barr appointed him special counsel. >> and again, these guys are so upset that donald trump's appointed prosecutors aren't doing enough of the corruption that donald trump wants them to do. they are just following the law or they're not as corrupt and not willing to go as far as they think that donald trump deserves. >> it is an interesting jumping off point, mike, to ask you if the republicans attacking the hunter biden case just willfully ignore the fact that if trump appointed u.s. attorneys are in

charge of that case and seems like garland hadn't touched it until he elevated the u.s. trump attorney if they think their theory is that he's in on the thick and what is the theory about the fact that it is a trump appointed republican who investigated hunter biden? >> they don't like that the hunter biden investigation didn't turn out to be what donald trump wanted it to be. and said it was going to be. they were banking on this investigation being sort of just like the way the clinton email investigation was to them in 2016. they thought this was going to take down an american political family that had been around for five decades, and show corruption all the way to the top. there was a lot of talk about this, a lot of deep breathing, donald trump was very upset that more stuff about this didn't come out before the 2020 election. and what happens in the investigation is that despite the fact that the justice

department looks at all these different things and hunter biden's life, the investigation narrowed to tax and gun charges. and those tax and gun charges are not going to put hunter biden behind bars for decades and decades. they may not even put him behind bars for any time. so, those investigations, which they had been banking on, which they had hoped would give them that october surprise that they got in 2016 never came to fruition in 2020 and then when the work was finally done on it, and it looked like it had come to an end, it was not the stuff that they had hoped for. it was not showing widespread corruption on the biden family, and money that went directly to the president of the united states from, you know, illegal means. and that's a huge letdown to them. >> mike, what do they say about jared kushner's $2 billion from the saudis and the trump

family's corruption, which they operationalized and probably have on power points at this point at the trump org, and their obsession with as you just said jailing for many years the president's only surviing son who struggled with addiction. what is their -- amongst themselves what is the rational for that? >> i'm not going to try to give their rationale. i'm not exactly sure. their rationale on different things. but obviously there is not the same level of interest on their part in, you know, jared kushner's foreign business dealings, why was it that jared kushner couldn't access the most sensitive national security information that the government had, why was it that the intelligence community was so concerned about this. look, democrats are not that interested in looking into hunter biden, but, you know, some democrats will say that, look, you know, what hunter biden did, you know, may not have been, you know, the most

prudent thing, you know, certainly for, you know, his family's political well-being. but, on the republican side, there is no interest in that. there is no interest in -- or curiosity and also on the democratic side, when the democrats have had power, since trump left office, they didn't seem at least from what i could see to be able to push and investigate on the kushner issue that really brought forward answers. donald trump has been out of the executive branch for over 2 1/2 years now. democrats have had different control in the house and the senate, you know, over that period of time. and those questions about kushner, they were never able to answer and they were never able to really dig into in a way that moved the ball. >> it is just an interesting -- i'm fascinated by the -- i think when you're shameless, you can actually get a lot of stuff

done. and the question about the republicans, it wasn't fair to leave it to mike to answer for the republicans, but they're pushing on this door of hunter biden who wrote about his own struggles about addiction and details the conduct under scrutiny for five years by a trump-appointed u.s. attorney. there is not on the left or in the right or in the biden family to mike's point, not a lot of people saying he shouldn't be held accountable for the mistakes he made as a human being. nobody is attacking the justice department for not charging the president's son with a crime, there is no threat to defund the justice department from democrats or anyone on the left, there are no threats being leavied we're aware of from the most recent from the recent fbi and dhs and being animated by grievances for the justice department from the left for the hunter biden investigation and hunter biden has been under investigation for five years and charged with a felony, there are none. no crimes from the left. the conduct that mike describes is that a guy who was so suspect

to the united states intelligence agencies that he could not receive a security clearance. jared kushner negotiated middle east peace, his official job on the white house website, and he had no right to see the state's secrets that were generated by the u.s. department intelligence agencies or any of our five allies. cia, people investigated him, fbi said no go. and when he left he got $2 billion. to mike's point, why doesn't anyone want to know why? >> i think people do. and it is sort of a false comparison because you have jared kushner, who was working in the white house, and hunter biden who was outside the white house. >> one is much worse and it is jared kushner not being investigated by anybody. >> yes, the son-in-law also rises. but i want to go back to what mary said, which i think is really important, which is really the theme of what we're talking about, which is there is this echo chamber between what

is happening on the dark web in this fact-free conspiracy -- >> it is not that dark. you can find it -- >> exactly. it is ebbing upward and it is ebbing on to the committee. you have these congressmen, call me old-fashioned, but you need to actually have a little bit of evidence to make a charge against someone and they seem to not have that at all. but the danger is is that it is colored by this aura of violence, that they are aiding and abetting these people in the dark web who are violent. we have seen an increase in domestic violence, there is a lot of research about showing the connection between the two. that's really dangerous for the republic and to your point about it is hard to respond to that, hard to respond to things that are fact free that are conspiracy theories other than saying it is absurd and that is part of the leverage that they have. that's dangerous. >> nicolle, on the kushner point if i may, democrats still control the senate. there is no -- >> why aren't they doing anything?

>> this is why i raise the question. my hope is that the senate judiciary committee will have an investigation into this. and i don't understand why they haven't done it now. >> mary, i want to give you a quick last word, really quick, because they're trying to interrupt me for a couple of minutes here. did anything that happened today, to your point about what was coming out of their mouths was totally synced up with the content of domestic violent extremists fantasy and lure, are you worried about the six hours of hearings? are you going to be tracking where there are statements and where all this video lands tonight on the websites? >> i'll be asking the researchers with whom i work, what is the reaction, are people paying attention, these are not always people tuned into to cspan all day long. but it only takes one or two to start it. so what that they didn't watch it. so what they didn't actually read the transcript or pay attention to what merrick

garland had to say. so to be determined where this goes. >> all right, we'll stay on it with your help. mike, mary, anthony, thank you for starting us off. rick sticks around for the whole hour with us. when we come back, one of the leading voices who has been fighting for our democracy and against disinformation for the last several years, eight years, as far as i can count, adam schiff will join us. we'll talk to him about what happened today, the republican effort to ignore the criminal counts against the ex-president. and big move today on capitol hill in response to senator football coach tommy tuberville holding up all military promotions. we'll get a live report on what could finally be happening in terms of progress on that front. and later in the broadcast, a new campaign mobilizing against maga extremists, calling out those trying to strip the foundations of the country from all americans from a fascinating coalition of individuals. we'll bring you all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us today. use" continua quick break. stay with us today more energy !

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the chairman would abuse the power of this committee by trying to interfere in the prosecutions of donald trump by trying to use the committee's power of subpoena to compel criminal discovery, making the committee a criminal defense firm for the former president. in doing so, the chairman of this committee would establish a very different proposition, through mr. jordan's actions he would establish the principle that the rule of law should apply to almost everyone, just not the leader of his party. >> that was california democratic congressman adam schiff, a member of the

judiciary committee, calling out the facts as they really are, about chairman jim jordan for his attempts today to undermine attorney general merrick garland and the department of justice's investigations into the ex-president. democratic congressman adam schiff is with us, a member of the house judiciary committee, also candidate for senate in california. congressman, that was a powerful moment. not just from you, but of the whole hearing. take me through what it was like to sit through this. >> i couldn't help the -- escape the conclusion that the alternate fact world ushered in by the trump administration is alive and well in jim jordan's judiciary committee. the facts seem to have no bearing on the arguments they make, there was a lot of grandstanding and not letting the attorney general even have a chance to respond to what was reported by being asked. but it just goes to show how little regard the members of the committee on the gop side have for the truth, for facts, for

our democracy, for the rule of law. they're willing to use the committee to undermine these prosecutions of donald trump, to interfere with them in any way they can, and they're also pushing out false information about the prosecution of hunter biden, and, you know, as i tried to bring out during the hearing, imagine the human cry, the outrage if merrick garland had removed the trump appointed prosecutor overseeing the case against hunter biden and replace him with someone else. they have been incensed. but he didn't do that. he did the right thing. and nonetheless they remained incensed. and why? because it has nothing to do with facts. it has to do with the fictional world they want to create around donald trump to try to protect him and try to preserve their ability to hold power. >> congressman, mary mccourt, former senior state justice department national security official just said that there is a lot of synchronicity between

the content and the substance of what the republican members alluded to and the conspiracies and the substance in content that she sees on domestic violence extremist sites, the hunter biden investigation, about january 6th being a fake government production, about the trump investigation. i wonder if you could give me your expert analysis of which side is winning, the truth or the falsehoods. >> i have confidence the truth is winning. but it is kind of a brutal test of that idea, that proposition, because you're right, there is this very destructive dangerous synchronicity between the false claims that are made online often that are associated with violence and violent extremism and what you hear from the republicans in congress. the false claims about january 6th, the continuing effort to rewrite history about that dark period of our history here on

the hill. and as i have seen personally, when you have that kind of thinking online and often turns out to manifest itself in very real threats in the real world. so it is dangerous, but i have confidence ultimately the american people will see through this, this is part of what i was underscoring today, there are two propositions being tested, one that the rule applies in the united states of america to everyone, and a different proposition that essentially you can fool the american people and you can fool them completely and the rule of law is inconsequential. i think those that have such little confidence in america will be proven wrong again. they always are. >> i'm intrigued by your optimism and i'll let it be the last word on that question. i do want to ask you about threats because that came up and that seemed to animate attorney general merrick garland the most. the idea that he is now leading

a workforce under threat of violent attacks because of these lies that were peddled to his face, the shamelessness is staggering that they were in there in a hearing in front of the attorney general himself peddling what had to be known falsehoods to his face knowing the cameras were rolling. you're someone who has been targeted by donald trump. i won't repeat, but i remember some of the harsh and brutal and personal insults and attacks against you and i wonder what you thought, if that was triggering or if you have words of wisdom for this doj workforce and fbi workforce now under unprecedented threat. >> well, you know, we have seen a dangerous level of acceptance of the idea of political violence, which never was something people contemplated in this country, but i have all too much empathy for what the attorney general was talking about today, because you see prosecutors under threat, you see grand jurors being

threatened, you see judges being threatened, and sadly i think the members of congress understand only too well this is the consequence of the falsehoods they with peddling. it is putting people's lives at risk. it is putting our very democracy at risk. and it just doesn't matter enough to them, which is really quite shocking and they should know better because many of them are the subject of threats themselves and so they have to understand the consequences of their words and actions. but i was proud of what the attorney general said today. proud of the way he conducted himself, he is, i think, speaking for the many tens of thousands of hard working people in the department of justice, at the fbi, who continue to soldier on in the face of these threats, doing their jobs, doing their duty and i think american citizens who will be called on for these juries, likewise, do their duty, but it shouldn't be as hard as they're making it.

>> congressman adam schiff, thank you for spending time with us on an extraordinary day up there on capitol hill. >> thank you. up next for us, democrats moving ahead after months of top military appointments being held up by one lone republican senator. how that came to be. we'll go live to capitol hill next. ame to be. we'll go live to capitol hill next rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. but i'm protected with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can be serious for those over 60, including those with asthma, diabetes, copd, and certain other conditions. but i'm protected. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems

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as soon as today, the sene could vote on three senior military level promotions, three of 300 such nominations that have been held up for months by senator tommy tuberville. the alabama republican has used these confirmed promotions as a bargaining chip in his protest of a pentagon policy protecting access to reproductive healthcare. joining us now from the capitol, nbc news correspondent ali vitali. just out of the capitol. ali, tell us what is going to happen and why this wasn't the preferred way of having a couple of these folks confirmed. >> reporter: you're right. this wasn't the way that democrats or even some republicans wanted to see these promotions get confirmed and this is just a small number, three of the hundreds that have stacked up here now because of this months long hold on the part of senator tuberville of alabama, all out of protest for the dod policy to support funding and travel logistics for those veterans seeking abortion care. now, we know that policy hasn't

changed, but tuberville over the last 24 hours sort of attempted some procedural slight of hand, trying to get more than a dozen of his republican colleagues on board with forcing a vote with just the person that would head up the marine corps. instead when senate majority leader chuck schumer got wind of this, schumer procedurally one upped him and said, okay, we'll do not just the one for the marine corps, but all three of these top positions over the joint chief of staff as well as the marine and army. that, of course, allows tuberville to go back and say he thinks this was a win for him, this allows schumer to go and say he thinks this was a win in terms of actually getting some of these key positions promoted and passed. what they're trying to do right now, nicolle, is just in the last hour or so they tried to move to file cloture on this, which is effectively the procedural step that has to happen in order for them to actually vote on these promotions. if they're able to do this on the timeline they want, by 6:30, 7:00 tonight these three key

promotions will be dealt with, but when you mention that this is not the preferred way of going about it, several democrats were concerned that by doing this one by one, or three by one in this one singular instance, that it opens the door to doing these piecemeal in a way it never has been done before. the senate is not long on time. they have to deal with whatever the house sends them on a government shutdown. they have other things to do. they don't have time to go through one by one hundreds of promotions going through vote by vote and that's the concern that was had here, is that by opening this up and showing that you're willing to do it for some of these positions, does it then put you in a position where there is a precedent set that you can do this for all of them? that's what tuberville might be holding out for. certainly that's not something that schumer is going to concede. but it is progress, however small, in terms of these military promotions. >> ali, as you're talking, i'm just keeping thinking of the movie "dave," wasn't does

schumer say we're going to do 30 a day and in ten days when chairman mark milley leaves washington, d.c. and an honorable career in the military, they'll be all done and sit your asses down, republicans, you're not going anywhere until all 300 are done. why can't -- why isn't there any innovation up there? >> he could, but right now i think one of the key battles on this is over the principle, which is that these promotions -- >> well, they lost, right? they lost. they lost. all of the -- there are no confirmed heads of -- they lost on principle, didn't they? >> reporter: i think just to be clear, everyone here is a loser on this one because even -- i just think that's really important when you play with games like this, where you're using military promotions as pawns, and i think it is why we're not seeing this as one of those clean partisan issues. even mcconnell has gone so far as to say that tuberville doing this is a mistake. i think for all of us covering it over the last few months, we have all been wondering if and when and how he would find the

off ramp to this. the military is not changing its policy, and also clearly the military needs these promotions in place. they were starting and have said over the course of the last several weeks and months that this is a national security concern, i have heard democrats on the senate side echo that, i have heard republicans on the senate side echo that. this is not one of those clean sweeps in terms of partisanship. i think that both sides here are able to argue they won, they lost. i guess it doesn't matter as long as you're confirming these folks, but the reason that you're not seeing schumer say, let's do batches of 30 is because there is really a reluck reluctance to concede the point here and these positions have which never been held hostage before, there is an upside to holding them hostage now and it gums up the process here, nicolle. the senate is one of those places where if all 100 people as you know decide they want to do things quickly, they can do that. but it is very rare to find 100 people who on an issue like this

that has become so public and thorny are going to be able to go along and get along now that they're months and months into this blockade. that's not something i see happening. there is a lot of different dynamics here between democrats, between republicans, between people who want to argue the principle. it is not a place where innovation thrives as you and i both know. they're trying to do this as by the book as they can without conceding the point. >> i think it is one of those things that puts so much distance between that institution and the american people. american people can't for the life of them understand why anyone who says they support the military would let it get to this. >> reporter: that's true on the shutdown too, right? we saw this yesterday in the house, with five republicans not voting for military spending. things are not going according to plan in congress here. >> ali vitali, your insights and your candor are both singular. thank you very much for your reporting on this. thank you, my friend. up next for us, we'll talk about shutting down lies and conspiracies online. it is so bad out there that

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so, just how addicted to conspiracy theories is the far right? look at these two photos. pennsylvania senator john fetterman on the left. and on the right, or is it, is that second photo actually a photo of senator john fetterman's body double, put in

place to replace him in the senate following his stroke earlier this year? well, of course it isn't. but for some people of the extremely online conservative apparatus, it is easier to believe democrats replaced fetterman with an identical 6'9", 270-pound doppelganger than it is to believe that that person went to a barber and improved his health after having a stroke. it would be comical if it were not a symptom of something much larger and much darker, this addiction to misinformation and disinformation over matters large and small combined with a new unwillingness to police it or care when it abuts domestic violence threats and the unwillingness to police it on social media all contribute to our current state of affairs. ahead of the presidential election, the biden campaign is trying to adapt to this new normal. politico reports this, the president's team is overhauling its strategy to fight

misinformation on social media, recruiting hundreds of staffers and volunteers to monitor platforms,buying advertising to thwart bogus claims. joining us, miles taylor and rick is still with us. this is something that runs through every story we covered today. i always worry that you're coming in too late to actually solve the problem. what do you think? >> that may be true. you know, the point you made earlier about the synchronicity between what is happening in the dark web and the far right and extremists and what is happening in congress is -- has been going on since the the conspiracy then chief was elected in 2016. it's just getting worse. >> you're right, you're right. that's devin nunez. >> he's the prime mover. these other guys are trailing along. what i was interested in in and

the story about the biden team amping up efforts to fight dinfmation is there is something new, generative a.i. what does a.i. do to disinformation? and i would argue that it multiplies it exponentially. if the internet research agency in st. petersburg had a.i. in 2016, it would have been way more powerful. and remember, part of the reason it didn't work is that these young russians didn't know english. now you could just say to chatgpt, write this in the style of a 35-year-old woman from tallahassee, and it would do it. so it's going to turbocharge disinformation, it's going to make it better, and i think if you lock into some of that conspiracy stuff, it's just going to make it even more widespread. that's dangerous. >> well, and i guess i like it rootarticulated. it's already happening, right?

we are here. we're not talking about the next stop. this is where we are parked right now as a country and our politics. and i wonder what you're thoughts are, what your counsel would be for the biden team. >> well, i've got to agree with rick. this had heroin because of that expect if you think 2020 was bad because of biden, 2024 is going to be vastly harder to cobb tend with because it's not justice political agitators, it's what rick said. it's politicized algorithms. that's the threat we're going to be facing. it's going to be hard, this is more than just whack-a-mole. this is probably a double exponential more threatening than what we saw digitally in those cases. i think's really good what we've seen with this recent news about

the biden team recognizing that because up and until this point, my concern has been that a lot of nefarious actors have been looking at how to abuse these tools, and only recently have the fact-checkers and the good guys realized, oh, wait, we also can use these tools to thwart the misinformation, to do real-time fact checking, and you're starting to see that. one of the things that's problematic, nicole, is there's been a chill in engagement between the tech companies and the administration and the executive branch because of court decisions, and that's going to be a big factor. this is worst time for tech companies to be afraid to engage the administration the subject. there needs to be close communication. and because of that, i'm holding an emergency meeting next month in washington, d.c., an a.i. policy lab, to get experts, government officials who worked on election security, together with technologists so we can give them concrete recommendations on the government's side today about how to deal with these changes we're going to see in 2024.

again, as rick noted, generative a.i. is going to completely change the landscape of this election, and federal authorities have to be prepared for it. >> i don't want to sound pessimistic, but we're starting on such a damaged foundation, and that lifelong republicans came out and said in is the most secure election in american history. latest polling shows 69% of americans think that president joe biden won because of rampant voter fraud. so you're starting on a country so uneven, sort of like on the san andreas fault if you're a californian and used to earthquakes. what are we building sound a.i. policies upon? >> yeah, it's a big, big deficit that we're starting off from as a country. and you know, you know what chris said in 2020 about it being the most secure election. that was the product, nicole, of four years of effort that chris

and myself and a group of other people put in to try to make 2020 the most secure election in modern history. we don't have that kind of time now to help educate the american public and put in place the structures to deal with the generative a.i. explosion. so part of it is going to have to be out of the government. and it will be responsibility in political circles. we're seeing that, of course, with the biden campaign needing to go on defense. but we also need to see civil society and state and local officials around the country get into the game. i had a conversation earlier this year with a guy who's an adviser to one of the richest people in this country. i won't say the name, but it's someone who invests a lot in important civic causes and voter awareness. his comment to me was, none of our peers are investing in the good guy side of generative a.i. in this upcoming election, none of them. we're seeing the bad guys spending money on it.

that's got change. we've got to see big donors, big civil society groups invest in this tech, again for facts checking purposes, transparency purposes, and to make sure the conspiracy theories don't spread and get halfway around the world before the truth can put its pants on. >> the point you made earlier is also a problem now. the history of right-wing pressure on the platform companies that you're violating first amendment rights by -- which is a lie, but what that has done is it's made them reserved and scared to actually deplatform things that violate the terms of service. remember, they're private companies, they're not violating the first amendment by taking people that violate their terms of service. they should be turbocharging those efforts leading up to 2024. >> they won't. >> they're not. >> then what do we do? >> well, i mean, myles' point is the way up and the way down are the same. you can use generative a.i. to fact check, but i don't think

the private sector is enough. i mean, the government has to be -- has to keep pressuring the platform companies to take off stuff that violates their terms of service. i know people on the right say you're just doing that to win an election. they're doing that because they're trying to make them stick up to their own rules. >> amazing conversation we'll have over and over. rick, thank you so much for spending the hour with us. myles sticks around longer. next fighting against book bans and book burning. trying to block the right to vote, the rewriting of history, some of the very ideals the country was built on. wild show you what's being done to protect the country after a quick break. don't go anywhere. s go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom!

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wrong is just wrong. you know it when you see it. >> but it's by toni morrison. she won a nobel prize for literature. >> we know better. >> but it's hard to know what to do. easier to let it go. so you just kick the can down the road. >> hi again, everyone. we'll explain. it's 5:00 if new york. kicking the can down the road, an easy, easier but dangerous thing to do. extremists in our country and in our politics are getting more organized, energized, more vocal, and yes, more violent. that's the message of a brand-new video put out by the bipartisan group mission democracy. their goal is to publicly call out maga republicans and make sure that voters know that it is our nation's fundamental ideals that are at stake in the next

election. here's more from that ad. >> please, i didn't do anything wrong. it was a miscarriage. >> it's for the courts to statewide, ma'am. >> wrong is wrong, but what can you do? >> they want you to think slavery was all bad, but slaves learned valuable skills like being a blacksmith. >> that's racist and a lie. >> it's in the school curriculum. endorsed by our fine governor. >> it's ridiculous. what are you doing? let go of me. stop touching me. >> politicians who lie are manipulating you so they can gain or maintain power, turning families and friends against each other andon leading to violence. surely you have to do something about that, don't you? because if you keep kicking the can down the road, eventually you run out of road. [ chants ] >> one people, one nation.

>> stop! >> banning books, seeking to overturn elections, attempting to erase parts of our history, taking away and criminalized women's health care. these actions by the maga movement republicans, can only be described as fascism, mission democracy argues, a threat they say is no longer a foreign threat and one we see just today as splashed across the fronts page of today's "the kansas city ar." "as a republican candidate for governor of moody's is vowing is running on a promise to burn oks. "the star" reports this vow from state senator bill igel came after he was criticized for a video showing him burning card business board boxes. he said,in the video i am taking a fla thrower to cardboard bepresenting what i am going to do to the leftist policies and rhino

corruption of the city swam let's be clear, you bring those woke pornographic books to ri schools to try to brainwash our kids, and i'll burn those, too, on the front line of the governor's mansion." that's where we start the hour with our experts and friends. democratic strategist, pollster and founder of brilliant corners research is here, miles teller still with us. with me at the table, host of "fast politics" podcast and "vanity fair" correspondent is back, and u.s. special correspondent for bbc studios and msnbc contributor katty kay is here. i'm going to start with you, cornell. this ad was made by a coalition, i don't think they'll be insulted if i call it sort of a motley crue of effective messengers of important voices from across the -- i think the ideological spectrum is a relic, so i won't say that it applies today. but people that maybe used to find themselves on -- in

different parties, and our understanding when talking to joe walsh is it's an effort to publicly call out the maga movement as fascist and using that word is deliberate. what do you think? >> i think that this is an important day -- it's funny because i was watching this ad earlier this morning before i got a plane because i was watching focus groups. i think this ad is important because it is something that i think we've brought up before here. because i think it does raise the stakes for those middle american voters out there, right. it is -- we talked about this before, democracy can't just be something that's important and what black and brown people want to hold on to as right. we need middle of the road white americans to have skin in this game, for them to say, oh, wait a minute, if democracy is under attack and if fascism becomes a thing, it doesn't just hurt those people, i'm a part of

this, as well, and i have skin in this game. i love this ad because i think it does raise the stakes for middle america who -- let's be truthful, they have been kicking the can down the road. and it puts a consequence to kicking the can down the road in a really important way. >> cornell, if you looked at all the cans in america they have republican shoe prints on them. what they've done for eight years. i want to push you on the politics of this because one of the things that i think is important to connect to is that republicans could come back when their party doesn't represent the toolkits used by the world's most vicious autocrats, but being against health care for trans families and making them think they're not safe is different from wanting to debate appropriate ages for medicine or how -- i mean, these some complicated issues that the maga

movement has made so authoritarian. and i think the right to vote fits in here, too. i mean, in this ad they seem to be taking things that are real and putting them together in ways that republicans can do very brutally and saying a vote for the maga candidate is a vote for book bans, for division as our new normal, for abortion being criminalized. that clip about abortion with the woman saying she had a miscarriage being hauled off by law enforcement. that is where some republicans want to take abortion policy in this country. and i think it falls -- it is the obligation of former republicans to tell the truth to their neighbors about how dangerous this version of the republican party is. >> well, again, i think it's important -- it's not about two parties with two different ideological agendas, right, it's not a party about -- do you believe in free markets versus

some government regulation. no, this election that we're having is coming up is really about do you believe in democracy, or do you -- are you cool with authoritarianism. and i think that -- those are the stakes, and those have to be the stakes that -- to understand. again, maga republicanism, you know, if you're -- it's almost -- if you're voting for republicans right now, you are embracing that other side of the coin which is anti-democracy. look, i just came from north carolina, and voters down there are talking about, you know, they're stripping the governor of -- of what has been the governor's rights for a long time, the republican legislaleg, and stripping him even of his rights to appoint people to the electoral board and sort of overlook elections. this is power going out of control, and at some point it's not partisan, nicole we've got to make more americans

understand this isn't about partisanship, this is about democracy or no democracy. >> yeah, and i think, myles, as added burden that i feel republicans have in articulating the danger and the threat is around what cornell's talking about. it is making clear what liz cheney made clear before the midterms, when she went out and endorsed democratic candidates, that it wasn't enough to simply call out donald trump and his enablers, you have to go out and help democrats win elections. and i wonder where you are in that process. >> yeah, i mean, it's what i would call coalition campaigning. and you -- we're in one of those moments where right now it's not our conservative issues going to prevail over issues that liberals care about, it's whether the foundations of our democracy are going to survive, and those are the moments where you put country over party, you work with the other side. you support people who actually embrace those tenets. i mean, look at the things we're hearing out there on the

campaign trail already about burning books and don't say gay and nullifying elections and denying the results of elections and replacing duly elected officials and suppressing dissent and censoring speech. it's pretty shocking stuff, the type of things you hear in authoritarian regimes. you don't normally imagine that it could happen here, but it is happening here. and there was a moment the other week that was jarring for me. i'm teaching a class right now on the future of conservatism, it's a really interesting moment to be teaching that class. and we brought in some of the top conservative voices in the country. and i've asked each of them what they want to see happen in the coming years with the republican party to reframe it on conservative issues. i expected to hear things like tax reform or balanced budgets or whatever. two very prominent speakers, one the leader of a major conservative publication and one a very senior republican said

their biggest concern was anti-constitutionalism. anti-constitutionalism. not that the republican party had veered away from key issues, but that it was veering toward opposing the founding social contract of there country itself. that's how serious the moment we're in actually is, is that republicans with a conscience, the handful left in the upper ranks of the party and conservative movement are saying they're worried that this is a party that's turning against the constitution itself. so that's what we're unagainst, and that's why people like liz cheney and adam kinzinger and others have embraced this concept of coalition campaigning. now's the moment to put those partisan divisions aside, work across the aisle, and get people who support the constitution and democratic institutions elected to office and get bhaga types who don't -- maga types who don't out of office. >> let me push back gently and with faekds for your conservative -- affection for your conservative icons. trump ran as an

anti-constitution guy. were they new to these positions? again, what do they ambulance to do? do they plan to use their platforms to encourage their readers and followers to vote for democrats because they're the only ones that will make sure we continue to live in a democracy? >> yeah. i think they, and i hope so. folks like this, it's not like they're going to win over that maga base. and you know, you and i have analyzed that segment pretty extensively. you're not going to move those people to go coalition campaign with democrats, but there is a sizable number of disaffected conservatives in this country, and they show up again and again in the polls, they're the ones who quietly say, oh, i wish the party would move on from donald trump. they're just looking for an excuse to be able to vote for someone else or to not vote, and when a rock-ribbed conservative like a liz cheney decides to go do a tour around the country to give them those justifications, that can actually make the difference, it can have a real tangible electoral impact, and

we've seen that in the numbers. i think we saw it clearly in 2020 when just enough republicans came out against trump and provided that air cover for people to switch their votes, people who voted for him in 2016, voted against him for 2020, and for the first time in their lives voted for a democrat, joe biden. we can't let that tactic fall by the wayside. and i do worry when i'm having conversations with other conservatives, a lot of them who are this cohort of concerned conservatives are tapping out this cycle. this is not the cycle for them to tap out. in fact, more of them need to come forward, otherwise we're going to see donald trump back in the white house. >> i think there's some degree of anxiety in democratic circles that this group of voters if they care that we continue to live in a democracy should turn themselves out, and that the real focus should be on the most essential, vibrant parts of the democratic party. that in the wake of almost 500 voter suppression laws racing through 48 states, predicated on

a lie that everyone knows is a lie, the focus and the energies have to be in communindicating with the democratic base -- communicating with the democratic base about the president's agenda and the stakes for our democracy. why do you -- they seem complementary, but no campaign can do all thins at once. where do you see an ad like this and the folks behind it fitting into sort of the -- the main course, if you will, of the campaign conversation? >> remember with this space, you just want enthusiasm, you just want -- they're going to vote for biden or they're not going to vote. >> right. >> so those people are not trump voters, but you have to get them out in order to win. i think that if i think back to the midterms when, remember, biden gave this huge speech about democracy and a lot of pundits said this is silly, no one cares, people don't vote on that, we've seen polling that shows they don't vote on it, and then we saw exit polls that showed they did vote on it. people are very concerned with that. and you saw in that ohio special, like people are

concerned. like they do not like this. and you know, you don't have to like -- this is not -- we don't have to imagine what these red governors are doing. we can look at florida and texas, and we can look at places where they are -- desantis is removing people from office because he doesn't like them, right. he's passing laws like don't say gay. i mean, you really can say it in action, and you see around the country that a lot of times people are pushing back. and you see democratic governors in states that really are not blue states are not even purple states. i talked to a guy who's running for governor, ryan bucy in montana, and he says people are embarrassed by trump and are sick of making excuses for him. >> so interesting. we'll talk later in the hour about abortion and some republicans' appetite for criminalized abortion. tommy tuberville damaging combat readiness is the assessment of the military over his extremist

views on abortion. do you think we're over thinking this? do you think there's so many structural issues that cut against republicans that they should just focus in on these -- book bans are easy to understand, criminalizing women's health care, easy to understand. >> i'm certain the book ban -- the interesting thing about the book bans, many of these positions, you could put abortion in the same category, is that it's a minority aryan movement. book bans, the overwhelming majority of democrats and republicans don't like book bans. >> 12% issue -- >> it's a 12% issue, 8% of republicans think there are many titles that should be banned. it's 8% of the republican party. yet it seems to be holding sway in certain states. it's putting off people like -- i remember speaking to mitch daniels who was thinking of running for the senate. and you know, moderate republican governor from indiana who wanted to get thing done, and decided there was no place for him in the u.s. senate on the republican side to try and get things done. the question is whether it ends

up turning offer more people than it excites. that's what the democrats are hoping. it's interesting on the biden and democracy thing is i wonder if he would still be giving that speech, david lenart, in "the new york times" has an interesting piece saying the biden administration is moving away from the framing of democracy versus authoritarianism on a global stage. i wonder on a domestic stage whether they feel that's such a winning issue, and yet in ohio we saw that it was. democracy was part of what drove that vote over the summer on the kind of pre-vote on abortion in ohio. so it's clearly something people are still concerned about. and they don't like things like banning books or extremes on abortion, they don't like them. it's amazing you have the structures of government that don't -- on multiple issues in this country that don't support where the majority of americans are, on either side of the aisle. >> gun safety legislation. >> gun safety legislation, abortion. >> it's a 70% -- 63% to 70% depending who you ask the question. cornell, i'm coming back to you

because i want to ask you if -- i worry that we make these false choices, right, as observers and media folks. it seems to me that president biden is making a democracy argument in the same way that the governor shapiro made a freedom and democracy argument when he said what freedom is and isn't. freedom is not criminalizing a woman's right to make a decision about her own body. freedom is not limiting the right to vote in the year 2023. i mean, it doesn't -- it seems like a false choice to say is biden going to focus on democracy or these other issues. >> it does seem like a false choice, but it's a -- it's real because, listen, nicole, i don't take for granted one moment democrats' ability to screw things up. you know, i don't take that for granted for one moment for them to be given a big mobilizing issue like democracy and then wanting to talk about, you know, small bread basket issues. so i take this very seriously,

and i know some of the people, you know, who are in the class who even going into the midterm where we did see reproductive rights and freedoms and to that point, look, democracy and threats to democracy were, in fact, a part of the -- the mix in the midterm, and democrats won voters overwhelmingly for voting on that issue. without those voters, we don't have a tossup midterm. we do have 2010 again where democrats lose 40-some seats there. so even going into the midterm, there were democrats saying we should stop talking about, you know, women's reproductive health and freedoms. so i don't take this for granted. we've got to keep the pressure on to keep saying we've got to make the election about bigger things, not smaller things. so many in the party want to kick the can down the road, bringing us back full circle, and not make this about bigger ideals about democracy. >> well, keep you on this

platform making that bigger argument because i think it's true, i think it's where we are. i think the threat to our country isn't over one party's ideas on tax rates. i think the threat to our country is whether or not we remain a democracy. experts saying if trump were re-elected it wouldn't be for four years, it would be until he died. i think there is ample evidence and data and research that the stakes are in category one, cornell, that bigger frame. cornell, myles, thank you so much for having this nversation and starting us off today. the table sticks around. a note to our viewers -- banned books are the topic of my friend and colleague ali velshi's book club. and nicole hannah jone author of "the 1619 project." one of the books relentlessly targeted by republicans. scan the qr code to listen to vel me to banned bookclub wherever you get your podcasts. when we come back, cassidy hutchison has a brand-new book

out, and in it a stunning accusation. she says rudy giuliani groped her on january 6th no less. that's ahead. plus, a new name and broader mission to fight for access to reproductive care for every american who needs it. it comes as republicans continue their all-out assault on abortion rights and as the presidential candidates fight over who will be the most draconian when it comes to women's health care. and later in the broadcast, ukraine's president zelenskyy tough message for russia at the u.n. security council today. we'll get reaction from two dear friends of the show, former adviser to president zelenskyy and retired lieutenant colonel alexander vinman. we continue after a quick break. stay with us. quick break. ay with us ♪ we're not writers, but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help

keep your information secure. ♪♪ we're not architects, but we help build stronger communities. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪

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some disturbing allegations to tell you about fro a really important voice, one we've covered a lot and a cruci january 6th witness. according to "the guadan, "former trump aide cassidy hutchinson reveals in her book she was groped by rudy giuliani on january 6th, the day of the insurrection, behind the scenes of the rally that preceded the capitol attack. a spokesperson for giuliani denies the allegations. hutchinson, according to that reporting, describes the forr new york city mayor-turned-election conspiracy theory peddler and trump co-defendant there way, quote, like a wolf closing in on its prey. more from the rert, quote, describing meeting with giuliani backstage at daltrump's speech near the whise before his supporters m on congress in an attempt to overturn the 2020 el.

hutchinson says the former new york mayor-turned-trump lawyer put his hand, quote, under my blazer, then under my skirt, end quote. we're back with molly and katy. i'm sorry you got the gross block. two things. cassidy hutchinson testified before congress in taped depositions and live for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours, and after her first interactions with the committee when she was represented by someone on the team in the family, after she broke with that person, she was viewed as highly credible. she's also been before all of the prosecutors, i believe, who have indicted donald trump. her credibility not really an open question. the allegations against rudy giuliani have been made by other people, as well. and i wonder what you make of this new chapter of really finding out from trump insiders what it was really like not just on the inside but on the inside on january 6th. >> yes. i mean, in cases like this, you stack up, as we learned during me too, you stack up all the

pieces of the puzzle. giuliani is being sued by a former assistant for sexual harassment. the level of detail in what cassidy hutchinson describes, it's -- it made my sort of skin crawl when you read about his frozen fingers on her thigh. it's really awful kind of descriptions. and then giuliani's team pushing back and saying why is she only coming out with this after two years. we know that it takes victims of sexual abuse years sometimes, if they ever do, to come out with these kind of allegations and a degree of bravery that cassidy hutchinson showed in her january 6th testimony. you can kind of -- you tick off all of the reasons to give her the benefit of the doubt and at least in the hearing over this. but then she also goes to say that she had to kind of run off through the tent on a -- another mission for mark meadows. reminds you of what this one individual was going through on that day, of the chaos of it and at the same time john eastman hered at her, seeming to see what rudy giuliani was doing. it looks like an incredibly

unhealthy environment for any woman to have been in, to have -- to be in that situation. >> i had the same feeling that this was a predatory climate for young women, and that not only were they carrying out a coup in which mike pence was in danger, but the women based on this reporting, were at risk every day. the other thing is that you had the bandwidth to plot an insurrection, revel in the violence, and grope a woman is just next level sick. >> yeah. i mean, i'm not surprised by any of this, and remember, we saw rudy do this in the "borat" movie. >> right. >> there's video -- it didn't take much to get him in that bedroom. this is -- look, all the reporting about donald trump is, you know, misogyny and bad treatment of women and calling his -- his friends' wives on the phone -- very -- nothing that is honorable in any way.

so i was -- i actually got kind of a chill, too, thinking about these two men and this -- girl who's young and pretty terrified in the middle of what is an interaction, and i mean, it was like something out of a movie a little bit. >> it was something out of -- do you remember kind of, i think back to when i started out working and the kind of early '90s and thinking this is what you had to do, and being so glad after me too that my daughter didn't have to go through what i went through. and thinking, oh, this description is the kind of thing that we sort of, you know, people of my generation or older thought was just normal and what you had to put up with to go to work. and i thought that had changed. >> well, you -- you look at the top of any organization, you're right, you can analyze organizations that have these issues. the top of the organization was donald trump who spoke about his own daughter in highly bizarre and sexualized ways. that was the -- i guess color my unsurprised that his top lawyer is accused of doing these

things. >> yeah. and the age difference is partly -- the power -- it's the power. >> the power. >> i want to do something because we are not them, this is a statement from rudy giuliani's team, quote, asked cassidy hutchinson why she's just now coming out with these alletions from 2.5 years ago as part of the marketing campaign for her upcoming book release. this is a disgusting lie against rudy giuliani, a man whose distinguished career in public service includes taking down the mafia, cleaning up new york city, and comforting the nation. that's from a man named ted goodman who describes himself as a political adviser to mayor rudy giuliani. >> no one's saying we should play judge and jury, right, on incidents of this kind. i think we learned that during me too. we the public cannot play judge and jury, but you can go through a pattern of behavior, and then you can come to conclusions. >> we've also seen video -- i mean, i think this -- this is not coming from nowhere, right. we have other -- >> this is not like oh, i can't imagine. again -- >> and there is somebody else suing him for similar behavior.

>> and if you've read the transcript -- i'll leave it there. for to learn more, cassidy hutchinson will be on ravenle maddow's program monday for her first live interview since serving as a key, a vital, i would argue most important witness in front of the january 6th select committee. ahead, we'll move on from rudy. we'll talk about making republicans pay for their hard right deeply unpopular attack on reproductive freedoms. that conversation's next. n's net . ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had

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the democratic governor of kentucky, andy beshear, is out with a powerful new ad attacking his opponent, daniel cameron, highlighting just exactly what republican policies on abortion really mean for women and even more devastating for children. take a look. >> i was raped by my stepfather after years of sexual abuse. i was 12. anyone who believes there should be no exceptions for rape and incest could never understands what it's like to stand in my shoes. this is to you, daniel cameron, to tell a 12-year-old girl she must have the baby of her stepfather who raped her is unthinkable. i'm speaking out because women and girls need to have options. daniel cameron would give us none. >> takes your breath away, right? surprise no one that republicans are stumbling all over themselves to try to launder the

truth, and the truth is that they are committed to taking away all women and girls' freedom and rights to make their own choices about their bodies. over the weekend the disgraced ex-president attempted to claim that he opposed a six-week abortion ban despite previously championing them. he tried to paint himself as moderate despite previously calling for criminal punishment for women who receive abortion health care. president joe biden quickly called him out tweeting this, quote, let's be clear, donald trump is responsible for ending roe versus wade. if you vote for him, he'll go even further. joining our conversation, president and ceo of the organization formerly known as naral and newly re-branded the reproductive freedom for all. molly and katty still with us much let's deal with the name in a minute. let me ask you about this ad first. we've been talking all day about truth and its abilities to compete on an even playing field with disinformation.

and adip shipp is the only one that represents that and it's ads that confront republicans with the truth of their policies that will go a long way. >> you're right, but it's shameful. it's shameful that a young woman had to do this. it should make daniel -- it should make cameron and his cronies feel humiliated that this young woman had to get on television and tell an incredibly excruciating, heinous personal story to break through. i commend her bravery. you know, we've talked about some of the women who are litigating these cases and these tough red states, and i commend all their bravery. but it's outrageous, and we should be outraged for them. >> i mean, minnie, i feel that way when i -- i feel so invasive as a questioner when i speak to moms who have lost babies they

desperately wanted, right, willow was lost, baby spooky was lost, and their moms are on tv telling their stories in service of this effort, right, this effort to make sure no women go through what they went through, of almost dying to receive health care that they needed to save their lives after they lost babies they desperately, desperately, desperately wanted. this degradation of the woman's experience and a woman's body seems to be where the window has normalized the conversation. >> yeah. and one of the challenges with that -- so it's really -- it's really powerful and important that these horror stories are coming out. it's dramatically shaping and shifting american public opinion on abortion. it's shifting republicans and independents toward support of abortion access. but i just want to call out the fact that women of color, particularly women in states like my home state of texas, even with roe v. wade as the law of the land, did not have access

to care. so it's so important to understand that there's hundreds of thousands of these stories that existed pre-dobbs, and when we think about a proactive solution for this, we have to be looking at not just restoring that federal right to abortion, but increasing access and removing barriers for care. because now we're seeing these really horrible stories come out, but you know, as i movement we've been working for years, particularly since planned parenthood v. casey to make sure folks understand that the right alone is not enough. >> mini, by extension the damage that's been done disproportionately affects access to cancer care and gynecological surgery and other screenings. can you talk about the blast radius of the elimination of health care services? >> yes. i mean, we know that the states with the worst and most egregious abortion bans are the states with the highest rates of maternal mortality, right. we know that the same states that are facing the most extreme childcare cliff right now.

we know that they're not investing in resources for families, and we know that where abortion bans are in place, doctors are leaving, particularly rural areas, and we're having ob-gyn care deserts. so it's the perfect storm, and it's actually why we've started to frame our work as reproductive freedom and the broader range of consequences that happen when you go after that tip of the spear abortion access, which is still our primary goal. but you have to look at the whole spectrum of care and what happens when it deconstructs, and what it does to the community. >> so the amazing thing about republicans' position on abortion is one that totally committed to their extremist views, and two, they all know it's a loser. here's trump. >> i'm also proud to be the most pro-life president in american history. got rid of roe v. wade, and by doing that -- [ cheers ] -- by doing that it put

pro-lifers in a very strong negotiating position. i did something that nobody thought was possible, and roe versus wade was terminated. the moral and constitutional atrocity known as roe v. wade. they rolled to end roe v. wade. that was a big thing. >> who's going to tell him that roe versus wade is decided upon by multiple justices appointed by republicans? it really wasn't the abomination that someone briefed him on. it also now is more popular than it ever was in its history. this is the republican -- this doesn't require investigative reporting to get to the bottom of where they really stand on an issue where they're losing in ohio. they're losing their voters in kansas. they're losing their voters in north carolina. this is a loser among republicans. >> i'm reminded of the lindsey graham tweet, you know, if we nominate trump, we will be destroyed and we will deserve it. >> totally. >> i mean, they did this to themselves. they caught the car, they -- they said it was about states' rights. it was never about states'

rights. you see now they want a federal ban in the debate, the republican debate that was talked -- who would support a federal ban. it's a loser for them, and you know they can't make their base happy, right, because their base wants abortion gone. blue states, red states, everywhere. what we're seeing is that abortion is health care, and we're losing doctors and having women being forced to bleed out in parking lots. i mean, every story is just nightmare fuel. >> the facts are going to bury them on this one because they're so accessible to anybody. >> which donald trump realizes, which is why after the midterm elections he criticized republicans for the way that they talked about abortion, for being too extreme, which is why this that interview on "meet the press" he was hedging about what his position was going to be. and the concern i think for some democrats that i've heard heading into 2024 is if it is a trump-biden match-up and trump somehow manages in that kind of intuitive way he has with politics to try to reframe his

own position, even though he was the one that got us into the position of dobbs ruling, if he tries to reframe himself as being somebody that is actually more moderate than some other people in the republican party, that will that -- how will that play in swing districts -- >> attila the hun. >> it's the comparative thing that we were talking about. >> yeah. >> the relativity. >> such an important conversation. we'll stay on it. mini, thank you so much. we'll talk some more next time about the new name and -- and the new landscape, if you will, for the conversation in the coming months. molly and katty, thank you so much for being at the table for a broad span of topics. we appreciate you. when we come back, ukraine's president zelenskyy delivers a powerful message to russia at the u.n. security council today. we'll show it to you and talk to two good friends of the show.

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(♪ ♪) the walking tree is said to change its entire location in pursuit of sunlight (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business? accenture. let there be change. translator: we should recognize that the u.n. finds itself in a deadlock on the matters of aggression. ukrainian soldiers now are doing at the expense of their blood what the u.n. security council should do by itself vote, and they're stopping russians and upholding the principles of the u.n. charter. >> ukrainian president zelenskyy's stern and important warning and plea today demanding

more from the united nations security council to stop russia's brutal and illegal war in ukraine. let's bring in our friend igor novakov, former adviser to president zelenskyy, and retired u.s. army lieutenant colonel alexander vinman, a former director for european affairs for the national security council. igor, tell me -- tell me the last -- two part question, lou are you doing, and what did you think about the president's speech today? >> well, first of all, i think -- i'm doing well, as well as i could be doing in the middle of the war. now let's switch to the more important topic, president zelenskyy. look, i think it was a very powerful speech, and what most people don't get is that after nearly two years of this war, time in ukraine is no longer measured in seconds, minutes, hours, days. you know, it's measured in human lives, in lives lost. and you know, to be honest, sometimes it feels like we're just paying the ultimate price to win not the war but some

really obscure waiting game of indecisiveness. and that's how it feels. i think the president needs to reiterate that message over and over again to keep the west united and guide us to victory. >> alex, i think that president zelenskyy being here is certainly palpable in new york. and it makes a meeting that can feel ceremonial feel like what igor just described, life and death. they are dying for the ideals we say we believe in, right. democracy over autocracies. i thought that what president zelenskyy sought to do this week was to sort of gently and artfully suggest that we aren't living up to what we say we're committed to. >> well certainly that's true. i think in both the speech today and the speech to the general assembly yesterday he felt very comfortable in his shoes. he's now not just the leader of ukraine but also world leader. i think countries around the world look to him for some sort

of leadership and guidance. today he focused his comments -- yesterday he focused on the fact that this is a global conflict. today he focused comments on the fact that the general assembly and u.n. needs to be reformed. he laid out a pretty broad vision of how that should happen. also of course, his principal effort was to continue to rally support around ukraine. he did that quite effectively. he demonstrated himself to be the leader that he's grown into being years into this war and years into his presidency. the question is can other leaders around the world step up and match him. and at times it doesn't feel like we're doing nearly enough. certainly the u.s. could be much more fulsome some support. there was an expectation that there would be a an expectation would be a bigger announcement around aid to ukraine, that maybe some critical systems like attack 'ems would be delivered, that there would be notable commentary on other systems coming in.

that is still lags and not matching the rhetoric. president biden himself said this was a global war for security but our actions don't seem to match that, and hopefully we follow president zelenskyy's lead in this regard. >> i'm sympathetic to what president biden has to deal with at home, a republican party that's blinking, and i'm wondering what you make of -- biden seems to be doing more than anything else and, it feels like president zelenskyy would like to see the body he addressed today and yesterday do more. do you separate them out the way i have? or do you think there's a sense of exasperation for everybody? >> i certainly do because first of all, i understand where president biden's coming from, and unfortunately, yes, ukraine is once again turn booing this domestic political tennis ball that everyone's going to be playing next year running up to the election.

but to be honest i feel more strongly than you do in this regard. my message should i have the opportunity to address the republican crowd, even the maga crowd, i would say, look, the only way to make america great again is to make it great again, and there's no greatest in running scared from a geopolitical rapist and trying to make a deal with him at the expense of america's leadership in the world. so i think, you know, this is the wrong morals and values that are being sold to the electorate there. and to be honest, to counter that, i understand why president biden, his administration, and all the same politicians need to figure out a way to count that level of populism. >> igor, i think you're making a gut issue, which in my time in politics i always think is more powerful than an intellectual argument. i want to ask both of you on the other side of a break how we keep the plight and the war and the stakes front and center in an increasingly distracted

environment. no one's going anywhere. we'll be right back. e. we'll be right back.

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needs to help ukraine win this war, end this war. that's his most important foreign challenge, and domestically that's a democracy at home. he needs to show strength in those two areas and that will allay a significant amount of fears about his age and his effectiveness if he shows strength in these two major areas that will also be the way he communicates to the american public why this war is so critical, why the american taxpayers should be investing resources, so i'd like to see him show quite a bit more strength on the american security at home and abroad. >> igor, you get the last word. >> in terms of fighting ukraine fatigue, it's like, how do you compete with cat memes on social media? you have to figure out a way, and we're doing just that. to be honest, it's all about truth, honesty, and integrity, and we're going to keep it up. >> igor we'll have you back to continue this situation. you too, alex.

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thanks so much for letting us boo your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber start right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. thank you very much. welcome to "the beat." i am ari melber. let me tell you from the start, we are tracking several stories on this busy news day and we have a special guest about to join me life tonight. peter navarro is back for his first interview on "the beat" in 15 months. he joins us at a time when cases against trump and