do you think trump can beat this case in washington against jack smith? >> no, i don't. >> convicted trump aide peter navarro discussing what may await donald trump in that same courthouse where he was convicted earlier this month. we heard from him, we heard his arguments and we will soon find out what he will face at his federal sentencing. that does it for us. "the reidout" with joy reid starts right now. ♪♪ tonight on "the reidout" -- >> hunter biden made a lot of

money, got paid a lot of money over those years. >> president bringing hunter biden around to state dinners. >> millions of dollars of ill-gotten and undeclared income to hunter biden. >> hunter's major tax offenses. >> hunter biden probe. >> hunter biden. >> hunter biden. >> hunter biden. >> the republicans hunter biden derangment syndrome on full display today as attorney general merrick garland appeared before jim jornd's judiciary committee to defend the work of the doj. also tonight, interesting developments in georgia. as d.a. fani willis names lawyer lynn wood who worked to overturn trump's election loss as a state witness. oh, these trials are going to be wild. plus, a new book from author michael wolf reveals what was actually going on behind the cameras at fox. how it enabled donald trump, even though rupert murdoch thought he was an idiot and why rupert murdoch kicked tucker carlson to the curb.

but we begin tonight with your tax dollars at work and kevin mccarthy's republican led house of representatives. we are staring down the barrel of a potential government shutdown that could paralyze our economy. we're going on six months of zero military promotions, leading our military paralyzed due to one republican senators obsession with controlling women's bodies. all of it due to republican intransigence. today under the pretense of oversight, the house judiciary committee led by the world's worst wrestling coach jim jordan grilled attorney general merrick garland. and for one moment, you thought republicans might take their oversight role seriously, look no further than this insight into their vision of the most pressing issues facing americans. >> there's a world naked bike ride in madison, wisconsin, just a couple months ago. and i sent you a letter two months ago asking if you had a

problem with that. >> world naked bike ride. the republican display today was a peek for those of us on earth one into the bizarre-o world of right wing fever dreams on earth 2 that would only make sense to the most fox viewers with a heavy emphasis on one thing and one thing only. >> doesn't it look weird that he's making -- he's become this immediate success in the art world as his dad is president of the united states? isn't that odd? >> i'm not going to comment about any specific -- >> not going to comment. not going to investigate. >> i don't know when it happened. i don't know what happened because i'm not involved, but it happened under the previous administration. that's so logically filet shous. >> i'm sorry, i'm not following. >> that doesn't involve the president of the united states. oh my -- >> i think i tried to make clear that i don't know the specifics of the investigation, much of what you're describing occurred during the trump administration, during justice department

appointed by president trump. >> no, it didn't. this is 4.5 years this investigation, the last few years. >> never mind the fact that republicans went down that road after attorney general garland spelled out, like a high school civics teacher, exactly what his role is and how the justice department functions. >> i am not the president's lawyer. i will add i am not congress's prosecutor. the justice department works for the american people. our job is to follow the facts and the law and that is what we do. >> now despite reiterating the independence of the doj over and over and over again, republicans throughout all manner of allegations accusing the justice department of malfeasance in the investigation into the president's son, by a trump-appointed prosecutor no less. one republican member suggested that garland be held in contempt of congress, leaving democratic

members eric swalwell and adam schiff to remind that it's another justice department's special counsel investigation, jack smith's probe into donald trump's attempt to overthrow the 2020 election that committee chairman jim jordan is trying to whitewash. >> that is quite rich because the guy who is leaving the hearing room right now, mr. jordan, is about 500 days into evading his subpoena, about 500 days. so if we're going to talk about contempt of congress, let's get real. >> the chairman would abuse the power of this committee by trying to interfere in the prosecutions of donald trump, by trying to use the committee's power of subpoena to compel criminal discovery, in effect, making the committee kind of criminal defense firm for the former president. >> in fact, despite questioning attorney general garland for more than five hours, it was largely up to democrats to do the committee's actual job and cut through republican's nonsense. >> it is just sad that this

committee has also been transformed into a soap box for political conspiracy theorists, instead of focussing on the really important issues that the american people care about. >> the rhetoric regarding the biden case have any bases in reality? >> no, it does not. >> what we're doing here today is talking about a lot of conspiracy theories. >> i implore the public to see through the sham. i have no doubt that you will hear a deluge of conspiracy theories and baseless accusations. they will, quote freely from so-called whistleblowers who have been broadly discredited or contradicted. >> all at the same time of a looming shut down. the other side of the aisle cannot govern, so they have this hearing which was supposed to be oversight, and use it as a big distraction because they are failing to govern. >> joining me now is the congress woman you just saw, mad lean dean of pennsylvania, who took part in today's hearing. and andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and msnbc legal analyst. thank you both for being here.

congress woman, the other day i did a little rant that i sat home and wrote just in watching republicans on television and asking whether isn't there any chance that republicans are simply embarrassed by what their representatives are doing? i have to be honest with you today, the bits that i watched of this hearing today, i'm embarrassed. i'm embarrassed that this is our government. i'm embarrassed for republicans, though they seem to have no ka patsty for being embarrassed for themselves. i just wonder how it felt for you to sit through this day of -- i can't call it anything other than nonsense. >> i feel embarrassment for our committee, for the dignity of our work. i feel that embarrassment. speaking to other moderate republicans who are sadly too quiet, they are embarrassed for this. i'm on other committees. i'm on foreign afairs. there is a dignity to our disagreement. you see in this committee, the judiciary committee, there's no dignity. there was no oversight. this is fecklessness and feelty to one former president. and i was thinking, you know,

the attorney general was sworn in to tell the truth. i wish that all of us had been sworn in to tell the truth. you saw lie after lie after disinformation on this committee. it is shameless. but they know no shame. >> you've talked about the fact that if he had stayed in the room, the chairman of the committee, jim jordan, so this is someone who is in defiance of subpoenas himself. >> yes. >> and yet is attempting to command people to honor the subpoenas that he wants to throw out about, i guess, i don't know hunter biden's personal life, whatever it is that he wants. did any republicans remain to listen to their counterparts on the other side of the aisle? because you talked to me before this start and said you sat through the hearing. did they? >> i sat through most of the hearing -- i'm one of the later ones to speak and ask questions. i wanted to be there. because we do have a responsibility for oversight. we have a responsibility to the serious problems this country faces. and so, while i began by saying, look, this is a sham.

this is not oversight. this is actually them just politicking and doing the bidding of a former president. the very same m.o. that he uses, which is to tear down american's confidence in the independent institutions. you saw attorney general merrick garland with real pride talking about the rule of law, the 115,000 members of his team in the department of justice, who are trying to keep us safe. all the while they are being threatened by this political rhetoric that is full of lies. some of the republicans stayed, but they mostly popped in and out. many of the democrats stayed not in defense of the attorney general. he is independent. he's doing his job. he's doing it with allegiance to the constitution and the rule of law. i think he did extremely well. i think they did extremely poorly and the american people are witness. >> you worked in the justice department, andrew, the thing is that part of the reason republicans are able to get away

with so much of the shenanigans that they do is that a lot of americans don't really understand necessarily how these institutions work. and so, when donald trump talks about the attorney general as if that is his lawyer, i thought it was really important for merrick garland to say, no, i'm not the president's lawyer. wouldn't be trump's lawyer if he was president and i'm not biden's lawyer and i'm also not your lawyer. i'm not the congress's hatchet man. can you talk the civics of it? no, he is personally not prosecuting donald trump. >> that is the key difference to my mind is somebody who worked in the justice department under many different administrations, between donald trump and everyone else. and that includes republican and democratic presidents. jeff sessions was essentially canned by donald trump because he understood that the justice

department has to be independent. now, the justice department is in an unusual position because of course it is a part of the executive branch. it is overseen by the president. but the norm that has to be followed if we are not to become an autocracy is that the jus it is department has to be independent, independent of congress in terms of who gets charged. doesn't mean there's an accountability, an oversight. it doesn't mean that the presidents and the white house don't get to talk about priorities. but who gets charged and who doesn't get charged has to be apolitical. that is -- whatever one can say about merrick garland, you know he understands that to his core. that's what he was saying. and you know, just to repeat what the congresswoman is saying, it was so important today for congress to take on so many significant issues. there are issues about not

enough federal defenders to represent people who are charged. there are issues involving our national security tools and how they should be reformed or not. that is a perfect issue for congress to be taking up to do oversight. none of that was addressed. instead, we're talking about the son of the president who has a drug addiction, who by the way, has separate trump-appointed counsel in charge of that case and is charged. and so, he will have his day in court. so, that is just such a distraction from real business that americans should care about. >> right. this committee could have talked about police reform, could have talked about the federal role in protecting voters and access to the ballot. there is a lot of stuff that actually oversight would be really significant to have and democrats did try to do that. but i just want to play one interchange. this is specifically about the trump indictments because this seems to be a bone that

republicans have to pick with garland, who again, he is not the one who indicted donald trump but were grand juries. here is the interchange between congressman adam schiff and ag garland. let's play that. >> was the president telling the truth or was he lying when he said that president biden told you to indictment him? >> no one has told me to indictment. and in this case a decision to indictment was made by the special counsel. >> so that statement the president made on sunday was false? >> just going to say again that no one has told me who should be indicted in any matter like this. and the decision about indictment was made by mr. smith. >> and one more to you on this, andrew, because again, the special counsel it's one of those things those old enough to remember living through the clinton era, feels like the

person if they want to can go far afield, but jack smith seems so by the book in the way he's put these cases forward and seems so straight forward. the fact is donald trump did attempt to overturn the 2020 election. we had an entire january 6th hearing about that. what do you make about that interchange and mr. garland's defense of the doj in that instance? >> well, one thing that's notable, i think both from the congress woman and from the witness today merrick garland, is a sense of propriety and what it means to take an oath of office and to be a public servant and what you owe the people who you are sworn to represent and who you are there for. when i worked for the department of justice, it was keenly understood you're there because of the public and they pay your bills and your salary. and you know, you saw merrick

garland there very -- in a very dignified way trying to give a completely honest but apolitical answer and to stay out of the news and not to be calling anyone a liar or not. the import was clear, but he was trying to stay in his lane as he should. and there were people, like the congresswoman today, who acquitted themselves i thought very, very well. now as a private citizen, understanding even in this sort of political season that we're in that there still is, as you said, joy, so many real issues confronting the country and it's a shame that people aren't willing to spend the time and energy focussing on them. >> yeah, indeed. let me read a white house statement. extreme house republicans are running a not so-sophisticated distraction campaign to try to cover up their own aions that

are hurng america to a dangerous and costly government. is going to shut down the government in a matter of days. hurting our economy and national security and jeopardizing everything from troop pay to fighting fentanyl. these side shows won't spare house republicans from bearing responsibility for inflicting serious damage. i'm going to give you the last word on this, congress woman. while that circus is happening, we are on the verge of a government shutdown, behind the scenes, are there -- a plan b in the works involving democrats and minority leader hakeem jeffries potentially leading a path forward to do the actual work of government? >> i know we're doing our part, the democratic caucus is doing our part. this is on mr. mccarthy. he has had the majority all these months. we have been here ready to do the work. we have serious problems to deal with. that's why in my conversation with the attorney general i wanted to talk about fentanyl. i have a son in recovery. i have too many friends who have lost children to fentanyl poisoning and overdose. that's the serious work we need

to be doing. why we did this oversight hearing which was not an oversight hearing this week i have no idea. why next week? they're going to open their first hearing in oversight on the faux impeachment of president biden with fact-free nothing. i have no idea. it shows you the utter dysfunction and i think malpractice on the side, that's the nicest word i can use, on the side of republicans. we owe it to fund our government. at a minimum, to fund the folks who work in the department of justice who are trying to keep us safe from fentanyl, from terrorism, from violence in communities. how about our troops? we owe it to our troops. they are training. they are fighting. they are working. and it could be that in a matter of days they will be doing all of that without any pay. extraordinary disrespect. extraordinary lack of understanding of your oath of office and what we were sent here to do. >> yeah, indeed. my answer why they're doing it, they're performing for fox. they want to get clips on fox

and they leave. they leave the chamber. that's what they're doing in my opinion. congress woman, thank you for the work that you tried to do today and democrats tried to do today. what a day. andrews weissman, our friend. thank you very much. up next on "the reidout," it's a strange turn of events. a far right conspiracy theorist becomes a witness for the prosecution in the fulton county case against trump and his co-defendants. "the reidout" continues after this. continues after this ♪ oh what a good time we will have ♪ ♪ you can make it happen ♪ ♪ yeah oh ♪ now, try new dietary supplements from voltaren for healthy joints.

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we all know that donald trump did not work alone in his attempts to overturn the 2020 election. many of those who aided in trump's efforts have either be named as his co-defendants or identified as co-conspirators. but there are some names that we have not seen, names that you might have expected to be prominent in all of this, like roger stone, mike flynn and steve bannon. they're all part of the story, but don't seem to appear in the indictments. and then there's lin wood, the prominent right wing attorney election denier and pro-trump fanatic who was all over the place defending trump in the months following the 2020 election. wood told cnbc that shortly after the 2020 election he hosted a who's who of conspiracy theorists at his plantation in south carolina. yes, i did say plantation. including kraken lady sidney powell, mike flynn, overstock ceo patrick burn and cyber ninja doug logan to coordinate their

efforts. wood did file a series of meritless lawsuits on frump's behalf and his his name attached to at least one legal case in michigan alongside one of trump's actual lawyers, the aforementioned sidney powell, that case resulted in a federal judge sanctions them for their historic and profound abuse of the judicial process, calling the lawsuit, quote, frivolous. well, now we may have discovered why we haven't heard lin wood's name in the indictments in a filing today from fulton county district attorney fani willis regarding conflict of interest among some of the defense lawyers for the 19 defendants in her rico case, she revealed that wood is now a witness for the state. wood tells the atlanta journal constitution that while he has been told he will be subpoenaed by the prosecution, he has not flipped on trump and claims he wouldn't have any knowledge with which to flip on him any way. joining me now is congressman jamie raskin of maryland, former

member of the house judiciary january 6th select committee. congressman, thank you so much for being here. i'm sure your ears perked up as mine did when we heard that lin wood would be a witness for the prosecution. i just want to ask you what you make of it because he was -- he's been sort of kind of a shadow figure but hasn't been a central figure that we've heard of in this case. >> well, you know, one day there will be a legal ethics or professional responsibility course designed just around the lawyers who were involved in the trump insurrection in an attempt to overthrow the presidential election because there were so many rules of professional responsibility that were violated in addition to the underlying law itself. it does not surprise me that some of them may be turning state's evidence and trying to speak as if they were mere legal advisers and were not participants which is probably, you know, the best life

preserver they're going to try to grab on to here. >> i'm going to put up on the screen the list of some of the people, there are 21 people, who the grand jury recommended indicting in georgia in this rico case. among them, senator lindsey graham, mike flynn, kelly loffler, david purdue, a former senator, mitchell, the right-wing lawyer who we know was part of hatching all these plots and then there's lin wood, he's in that list, too. i wonder as part of the january 6th committee, did you all ever consider subpoenaing lin wood? was he someone that you all thought about bringing in to the narrative of the january 6th conspiracy given that he hosted, you know what he called a who's who of these conspiracy cysts and election deniers at his plantation? >> i don't remember specifically whether lin wood was someone within, you know, the scope of the investigation at this point.

and i'm actually -- i continue to be amazed at how many new substantial players have been discovered who i had never even heard of before, you know, and we spent more than a year on this obviously. >> there is that aspect of it, as you said, and then these indictments each one sort of pulling new threads to your point of people we hadn't been introduced, characters including these fake electors who some of them now have been indicted, as part of the conspiracy, particularly in the rico case, in georgia. what do you make of just as a constitutional expert, i love getting nerdy with you and talking constitutional stuff. the idea that some of these people are now trying to make the same claim that jeffrey clark, the former doj official made, mark meadows, donald trump's former chief of staff made without success that our cases should be federal, that you can't do a state rico indictment against us because we somehow federal. what do you make of that argument?

>> in order to make that very difficult proof, you have to show that you were a federal officer working on fulfilling a federal mission, specially doing your federal job at the time. and that's not at all what presidential electors are. presidential electors are appointed by the state legislature through the election laws and through the election process, which incidentally is something that the republican party has been emphatically insisting upon with the so-called independent state legislature doctrine which was basically rejected by the supreme court in a recent decision. but they, above all, have been insisting that these people are state actors and not federal actors. just because you're a state actor who has a federal function of casting elector doesn't make you a federal employee or a federal officer. that's ridiculous. it's not like presidential electors have an office in washington or a department or even meet other than when they meet in the state capitol to

cast their votes. and at that point, the governor certifies the electoral college and sends it to washington. these people really were fake electors. they had not been certified by the official georgia state election process. so they were -- even if they were real electors, they wouldn't be federal, but they were fake electors. and so, they were fake state officials, impersonating state officials in a way to try to strip the public of our right to elect our own president through the process we've got. >> it does feel in some ways like one of the things that these maga republicans do is they take advantage, we talk about this in the previous segment of people not understanding how the system works to say things like well the vice president can decide who the president is, right? the vice president can make that call in the well of the senate which is not true or electors you can have different ones from the ones that are chose mn ch do you feel like in some sense it is a civics problem that americans really because the system seems so vague to so many people that republicans are just

introducing these kind of lies into the system that are very difficult to extract? >> well, you've got it. it's definitely a civics problem if we're going to maintain a completely archaic and antiquated and obsolete system like the electoral college. it is the system. we have to be faithful to it in implementing it. some of the right wing supporters the insurrectioners saying it's a problem with the electoral college. no we have to enforce the electoral college as long as it's the law. it would be good we adopted the interstate compact agreement which has been adopted by 15 states now in the district of columbia of course the republicans are opposing that. and that is a method to try to get us to a national popular vote. i mean, it just makes no sense in the 21st century we're not electing the president the the way we elect everybody else who ever gets the most votes wins. and that's easy to understand. and it doesn't have all these nooks and crannies that can be

exploited by a strategic bad faith actor like donald trump in an attempt to foment chaos in the system. >> oh, but congressman, republicans can't win the presidency with the popular vote. you know they're never going to go with that. at least in the modern era, six out of seven times. i have to ask you this with apologies because you're such a dignified individual i have to ask you about this because she was the star witness in the january 6th hearings, cassidy hutchinson does have a book out made a lot of allegations. we know there was a lot of intimidation she faced. we know she had to be pretty brave to go against donald trump's lawyers and what they were telling her to do to lie. she now also made an allegation attempted to sexually molest her, made advances toward her, lewd advances that would be one rudy giuliani. i want to see if you have any comment about her allegations that essentially back in the ellipse area she was back there with rudy giuliani and he

attempted to get quite handsy with her. >> does that surprise anyone? does anyone doubt that story for one moment? she was about the most believable, credible witness i've ever seen in my life. and rudy giuliani is obviously full of it and completely undependable and unfaithful as a witness. if america had believed the women who came forward about donald trump's sexual harassment and if we had followed what we heard with our own ears in the "access hollywood" tape, we never would have gotten into this situation. usually sexual assault and tolerance for misogamy and sexual harassment go hand in hand with authoritarianism. it does not surprise me for a moment that on that most sinister of all days, january 6th, rudy giuliani decided that that was the moment that he was going to grope cassidy hutchinson. i want to say to cassidy and to molly michael and all the other

young women in the republican party who served faithfully and are testifying honestly now about what has taken place, there's a party for you called the democratic party. come on over. it's a big tent. we got room for you. it's the party of democracy and freedom and equality in america. and that's how we're going to make meaning out of all of these savage experiences that people have had. >> and respect for the autonomy of women. this is me staring in e. jean carroll. so, congressman jamie raskin, always a pleasure, sir. thank you very much. and now, this quick programming note, next monday night, rachel maddow sits down with the aforementioned foer white house aide cassidy tchinson for her first live sper view since serving as, a, if not the key witness as the january 6th hearings. coming up next, a blistering new book predicts the fall of fox and the end of the murdoch dynasty. dishing shovels of dirt on

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we have some brand new insight on what happened over at fox in the days and weeks before and after the massive dominion defamation settlement. this comes from the forthcoming book by famed media, michael wolf, entitled the fall, the end of fox news and the murdoch dynasty. what we learn in the excerpt

posted in new york magazine is that fox and its 92-year-old rupert murdoch always had a tortured relationship with donald trump, the man they boost and empowered. it's no secret that fox is an extension of the republican party. fox and murdoch embraced trump because it was politically expedient, that is until he became a loser. according to wolf's reporting, after the 2020 eleio murdoch saw trump in clear terms. in addition to being an a-hole, pl nuts and idiot, fool who couldn't give a flip who had no plan who just wants the money, trump was an f'ing crazy man and a loser. murdoch was furious that trump kept lying about the election results and as a direct consequence his network was being sued by dominion for repeating those lies. murdh created his own gremlin and now he was angry it bit him back. according to wolf, murdoch was angry because in his mind it wasn't fox's fault, it was donald trump's fault. he wasn't going to pay for what donald trump did.

sue donald trump, he figured. that didn't happen. and fox would wind up coughing up $787 million to dominion for magnifying trump's lies and murdoch got that number under the billion dollars that dominion originally wanted with a wink and nod plan of culling the herd. murdoch considered firing sean hannity who he couldn't stand and wound up sacrificing tucker carlson he likes instead, not because of his racism, conspiracy a putin fan dom, but rather because murdoch was bothered by reports that carlson might run for president. nbc was not able to confirm these reports. joining me now is president and ceo of media matters for america. >> like wise. >> let's just get into this. it is fascinating. rupert murdoch, we learned from multiple books despised donald trump, does not have any respect for donald trump, yet went along with donald trump's rise and

flaking for donald trump, only to be angry that donald trump caused him to pay out all that money. what did you make of this reporting? >> yeah. there's a lot to be said about this because he wasn't just a passive participant who sort of endured this happening. there was a moment at fox news, inflection point, they actually gone from challenging trump's election lies in the initial days of the results to making a flip, making a business decision and a political decision that they were going to carry the water for it. that's why they ultimately got sued. and there were moments along the way, in fact, on january 5th, the day before the insurrection, rupert murdoch where he says the only entity that could correct these lies for the american public is fox news. the only ones who have the trust relationship. he made an active decision the day before the insurrection not to use fox news to actually correct that misinformation. so my point is that he can -- he wasn't totally a passive participant in this, not just in this moment, he actively enabled it and you mentioned in your monologue is they seeded this. they incubated this extremism.

we didn't get here over night. fox news was the lead steerer for the republican for decades. >> we call them fox. it isn't a news organization. it's an extension of the republican party. the interesting thing is when you talk about the only people who could really defuse the lies, it's true. that's what most republicans watch. >> yep. >> tucker carlson at the time, though now unemployed, was the most powerful voice there. >> yeah. >> there's some interesting things about here as well. and when they fired tucker carlson, instead of firing sean hannity and sort of tucker is portrayed as being locke's murdoch guy. this is what they wrote. fox's casest carlson retailed through the liberal media in the weeks after he was taken off the air was a case against itself. fox might be white conspiratorial in its views carlson in his six years in

primetime had become more fox than fox. what do you make of that? he transformed somebody who worked here at msnbc and didn't do so well at cnn to that thing he was on fox and got fired. >> there's a lot to that. obviously i know these things can be suspect. i appreciate that. there's actually a lot to that because keep in mind that the 2022 election was the first time in aurt kwaer century where rush limbaugh was not the single largest get out the vote. there was a massive void in the right wing media. an echo chamber you need a conductor for that chore rhus. tucker was the only person that stepped into that center of gravity why he started to give speeches in iowa, for example. because he started to experiment with just how much -- how much influence do i actually have over this massive engine of misinformation and ideas. and so if you are the murdochs and you're in this precarious position, especially after the dominion settlement, knowing all the head winds you're heading into, all these changes in

consumption, all of this political upheaval, you need to have tight control of the reigns. there's no way that you can do that from a financial perspective or a political perspective if you have tucker carlson there, who is too big. >> his hubris in thinking, i can be president, too, because they created the sort of atmosphere where donald trump thought he could be president and got to be president. this is the third thing i want to talk to you the attempt to replace trump as the fox preferred candidate. succession episode, with desantis and the disaster that was because he has no personality. here is the little bit. he got to go to dinner, desantis did, with tucker carlson and his wife who is sort of stay at home mom. and he spoke with his outdoor voice indoors, failed to observe any ritual or propriety and may have even kicked their dogs under the table. he was uncouth and gross and that didn't work out. your thoughts? >> that certainly sounds like it would be accurate. i mean, the dog thing stuck out to me because one of the --

there's a few publications in florida pro desantis, one called florida voices. it is heavily funded by a massive puppy mill operation. ron desantis gave endorsement videos for this outlet and then when the news came out that it was funded by a puppy operation didn't say anything. when you're pro puppy mill, you want to distance yourself from it. all this se lay shous, that i could see. at its core it rings true. >> puppy mills and pudden fingers not a good way to become president of the united states. still ahead the shadowy group between the supreme court challenge to affirmative action sets its sights on diversity efforts in corporate america. rsv is out there. for those 60 years and older protect against rsv with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are

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challenging the fearless fund, an atlanta-based group that towards 20,000 dollar grants to black women who run businesses. bloom he's ironically titled other organization, the american alliance for equal rights, allege that the grant for black women's discriminatory. joining me now is ayana parsons, cofounder of the fearless fund, and benjamin crump, the civil rights attorney retained by the fearless fund to fight a lawsuit, and, of course our friend, friend of the show, my friend. it's great to see you both. thank you for coming on. i just want to have you point out -- and have you explain to -- us what the fearless fund does. >> yes. so, the fearless fund is the first venture capital fund founded by women of color, investing solely in women of color lead businesses. so, we are an investment vehicle. we invest capital and we take an ownership stake in those companies. there is also a completely separate 501(c) (3) called the fearless foundation. and that is where we deploy grants to deserving women.

>> and then i just want to point this out, just statistically. women -- black women owned businesses right now receive just 0.39% -- for anyone who is now the math person, that is less than 1%. the idea this person, edward blom, who is definitely fixated on things black people are trying to achieve, is going after you all for 20,000 dollar grants that are less than -- that a prize less than 0.39% of venture capital fund -- >> well, joy reid, it's abysmal. so, that 0.39% is all women of color -- >> -- >> it's not even black women -- black women our 0.13% -- latino, asian, more than 20% of the population. so, let's talk about equity. let's talk about fairness. that is what this is about. and that's why he must be stopped in his tracks. >> it does seem like it is sort

of -- in a way. but, as a legal case, how can it be possible that it is discriminatory for this organization, an organization founded by three individual private citizens, canada ward grants to black women. how can that be even the case? >> joy reid, this is nothing but a frivolous attempt of the enemies of equality to try to prevent the progress of women, to prevent women, especially women of color, from having a seat at the table, they are on the wrong side of history. and ayana parsons and aaron simone has done something that is a sea change. they have raised almost $100 million to say, black women and women, you all will have a seat at the table, and he said, oh, i've got to protect white men. >> yeah. and so, is that the basis of this case? that white men should be given some of the 20,000 dollar grants? >> he said, you can't ever be intentional about trying to increase diversity, because that, to him, is a violation of

the civil rights act of 1866 that was created after the civil war to give black people an opportunity to do business, to enter into contracts. so, it is so disingenuous, joy. but now he's trying to use that same law to stop black people from doing their business. >> it feels like this is one component in an attempt to dismantle all of the structural attempts to kind of bring african americans, bring women of color, bring asian americans, bring latinas, into equity. is that how you feel? >> it is absolutely how i feel. and you see what has happened with corporations and diversity, equity and inclusion funding. we have seen that to come to a halt. we have also seen, with this lawsuit, what i would call the dismantling of the american dream. we are supposed to be able to come in this country, be born in this country, pull ourselves up by abu traps, and this is a dismantling of that. if black women can't be entrepreneurs and get the funding that they so deserve to grow their businesses --

>> right. >> -- how will they care for their families? how will they create wealth for future generations to come? >> do you have any faith, if this lawsuit goes to the supreme court, that the six that, apparently, don't believe in affirmative action, and don't believe in trying to create equity, would ever rule in favor of the fearless fund? and when they just wipe out any kind of attempts to help nonwhite people? >> i know, this joy. if i can articulate it to you in particular, the intellectual justification of discrimination is rampant in america. and the supreme court has shown us that they will engage in it. but the great victor hugo said, not all the forces of all the power of all the armies in the world can stop an idea whose time has come. the fearless fund, giving women a seat at the table, is an idea whose time has come. >> we will be watching this case. ayana parsons, thank you, best of luck in this lawsuit, our friend ben crump, thank you -- >> thank, you joy reid.

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reidout" blog. john jahan jones -- he says rapper meghan the stallion -- keep up, gender -- and listen to her and jahan -- that is tonight's "reidout". "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight,r