bad idea to lower yourself to these people and take a chance on the debate stage, it'll only have the power to pull him to the right and make him look like he's going to the right, at a time when, to your point, he is running a general election campaign a lot of people say he is pivoting to that i think he's been doing that all along, with the one exception he keeps punching desantis as hard as he can. >> seems to take delight in that you're right, general election moves on both with the auto workers and language on abortion, too. jonathan allen, thank you. we appreciate it this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now what do you say to people back home who may not follow this closely but expect you guys to get this very basic function of your job done and fund the government >> we're dysfunctional. >> that simple >> we are so dysfunctional you know, we have nobody at the head >> republican tim burchett of

tennessee with a candid assessment of congress and what is happening or not happening on capitol hill it comes as house speaker kevin mccarthy will again try to pass a defense spending measure, a measure that typically passes very easily, after far right members blocked it from moving forward. meanwhile, the senate finally confirmed a top military officer yesterday, an air force general that president joe biden nominated for the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff four months ago one getting through. we'll show you what republican senator tommy tuberville had to say about his blockade that is preventing hundreds of promotions, because that still stands. also on capitol hill today, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy will meet with house and senate leaders, hoping to secure more military aid in the fight against russian forces. willie, what i'd disagree

with the congressman, he says, we have nobody at the head, as far as the republicans they certainly do. they just have a lot of crazy people behind him. i mean, you know, there are six, seven, ten, 15 people, and we k knew this from the beginning, they're just gesturing they want to raise hell. they don't want too get anything done they don't want to get their business done. because, again, just so people understand, this is about money. it's about economics it's not about balancing the budget republicans don't care about balancing the budget, and they haven't for the past 20 years, especially when republicans are in the white house donald trump spent more money with this congress than any president and any congress in the history of the republic. now, it's about making money so they can raise hell and go, oh, great. they get on tv they go wild saying, "oh, kevin mccarthy is not a real conservative," and they raise money.

>> yup. >> it's all it's about they go online they can send out, you know, fundraising emails they can tweet they can do all this it's all gesture, and it's all crazy republicans. who are the people who lose because of this other than their const constituents these republicans that won in joe biden's seats. they're going to lose in 2024 if this continues. >> that's why we're hearing the moderates. we'll have congressman lawler of new york, upstate from here, he's in a swing district, a close race he won, he's speaking out. you don't hear, typically, republicans coming out of the press, the caucus meetings and saying, "we're terrible right now. we're a mess." usually, it's democrats describing republicans, but you're hearing it from republicans, saying that this is a disaster it's not clear what kevin mccarthy does to get out of it he caved a little to the minority who, yes, they're trying to get podcast audience,

stay famous, stay relevant that's what they're doing. it's not clear how he finds his way out of this and, more importantly, how we fund the government, because the shutdown is a week from saturday. by my count, that's nine days from now, without a clear path out of it. >> yeah, and this is what happened, democrats will say this is what happens when you put these trump republicans in charge of something. again, it's just a complete, clear indictment. >> you have "the wall street journal" there. >> "wall street journal" editorial page, jonathan lemire. >> we're going to jump right to this. >> donald trump afraid to debate. >> definitely. >> "the wall street journal" asks a question, lead editorial, why is donald trump afraid to debate they go through a series of things, but the bottom line is, they complete by saying, "mr. trump's advisers may be telling him not to appear,

should he say something that hurts his legal defense, but that's a sign of weakness, not strength, and he'll have to answer those questions eventually what is former president afraid of?" asks "the wall street journal" editorial page. >> it's the right question obviously, it does a disservice to voters, republican voters, our democracy, if he doesn't participate in the debates he should, period, full stop right now, they're sending no signal that he will. he skipped the first debate. he showed no slippage in the polls. in fact, his lead has only grown. he is not going to participate next week, partially because of a personal animosity he has against the ronald reagan library, of all places he's sending signals he won't go to the third one, and aides raised the possibility of, why do it at all they feel if he shows up, he just elevates those around them. he becomes subject to their attacks. he could get pulled to the right on certain issues, trying to

out-conservative someone like a mike pence or governor desantis, whoever it might be. there remains the chris christie factor, where they're afraid of christie going at him one-on-one christie said that's what he is born to do at this moment. we also should raise the possibility of trump, were he to be the nominee, not participating in general election debates either. remember what drama was around it four years ago? none of this is good for the democracy, full stop, but, also, it's not good for the other candidates who try to swipe at him. it seems like donald trump, maybe it is an effort not to say something incriminating, though he does that anyway, doesn't seem like he is going to participate. he feels he can glide path to the nomination and think of a general election stance with issues like abortion and visiting the auto workers next week. >> not only that, "the wall street journal" suggests -- i mean, if you look at what happened last weekend, willie, where you looked at him and he just got lost, he just blanked

he couldn't even remember, one, who he was running against in 2024, and then -- and i know it was almost eight years ago it was a long time ago if you're -- we've all been around people with dementia, people getting older, forgetting things. >> or not knowing history. >> well, it was his history. so if his mind wasn't gujumbledt that moment, he would have remembered he ran against hillary clinton in 2016. he couldn't remember who he ran against in 2016, so he just slid obama in there he couldn't remember who he was running against in 2024. what he did, he just slid obama's name in there. just a catch-all i guess if you start your career with a racist conspiracy theory about obama, he's got that back there somewhere. he is living somewhere in 2011 i'll just say obama's name

people seem to like that "the wall street journal" editorial page actually suggests about as much, that maybe he is afraid he's just so oltoo old t this they write, "why is mr. trump afraid to confront other republicans without the aid of a teleprompter is he worried he'd look his age at 77 next to younger candidates?" you know what? i know, for donald, that line hurts, because he's seen the video of how addled he looked and how confused he looked and how shaken he looked last weekend when he couldn't even remember who he was running against. now, you've got "the wall street journal" editorial page saying, hey, i guess this guy is, you know, afraid he can't do this without a teleprompter, and he's

too old. which i guess starts raising questions, willie, like, is this really who the republicans -- if they don't look at the four indictments and the stealing of the nuclear secrets and the stealing of war plans and the attempt to steal an i electi sui think they are, hey, there's a reason donald trump is afraid to debate maybe he's getting too old he may lose his mind like he did on the stage when he thought he was running against barack o obama. if you're debating someone and you don't know who you're running against in the general election, that could cause a problem. i'm not good at this politics thing, but that could cause a problem. >> i think just throwing obama out as a stand-in for all democrats, that works. it's hard to remember all the names of all the people you've run against over the course of your career. >> so many of them. >> yeah, it's one thing to stand at a rally with a friendly crowd

and to play the greatest hits to get all the cheers, to have the music play you off the stage it is another thing to stand on a stage and be under attack. though it is an open question whether this field would attack donald trump, given the reference they've shown for him. but to be on the stage, on your feet, having to react and answer criticism, answer substantive questions from a moderator, that is probably not the best format for him. as john says, he is looking at the polling. even inside places like iowa, where he lost last time, and he's up by 25, 28, 30 points new hampshire and the national polls show him up 50 points. if you're playing with that big a lead, why would you mess with that sounds like "the wall street journal" is trying to bait donald trump into getting to one of the debates with the age question, but if you're advising donald trump and you're up by 50, why risk it >> i guess you say, these are perilous times we're living through, mika. if you ask donald trump, we keep going in this direction, we may

start world war ii [ laughter ] >> i'm glad katty is here. we can warn her about that. >> katty kay might need to know about that jen palmieri is here, as well. we're going to get everybody in in just a moment there's a lot for him to be concerned about when it comes to getting on the debate stage. mine, he might have his own personal insecurities about looking old, but his lawyers, come on, man, they don't want that guy talking anywhere. they want that mouth shut for sure new reporting suggests he might help himself a tiny bit by doing that donald trump is spending a lot of time thinking about the possibility of going to prison, despite what he said on "meet the press. >> when you go to bed at night, do you worry about going to jail >> no, i don't really. i don't even think about it. i'm built a little differently, i guess, because i have had people come up to me and say, "how do you do it, sir how do you do it?" i don't even think about it.

these are corrupt people i'm dealing with they're destroying our country i don't even think about it. all i think about is making the country great, making america great. >> i mean, i've got the question, how do you do it how do you do it, sir? i'm talking about the hair did you see that hair? >> well, i can't talk today. >> i'm jell-oed. >> how do you do it, sir what certain says, sir everybody goes, sir? how do you get the hair to do that it's going in -- >> listen -- >> -- a variety of directions. it's a medusa thing there. i would ask him, if i saw him, how do you do it, sir? how do you do it >> i don't know what there is to get out of a donald trump conversation at this point >> well, the hair. >> he lies so much >> the hair. >> you have to do a full stop with the lies. >> inside the lying, though, there's always an admission that's going to send him to jail for even more years. so, i mean, this time, the

admission was, i didn't take -- now, i know people have said i took advice from lawyers can you not do that anymore? that's what people used to say about donald trump donald trump, of course, got rid of that defense by, oh, no, i didn't rely on the advice of counsel. i thought about overthrowing the federal government all by myself >> yup. >> again, this is why his lawyers don't want him to talk. >> i turn to my brain. three sources familiar with trump's comments tell "rolling stone" the former president has been hammering his attorneys with questions over the past several months about what prison could look like for him. they include, would he have to wear a jumpsuit? would he will sent to a bad prison would he serve out a sentence in a plush home confinement situation? those questions are in direct contrast with trump's public comments regarding his legal problems trump faces 91 felony counts 91. >> 91, that's a lot. >> keep this in mind

in four different cases. he has pleaded not guilty to all the charges against him. i say that 91 thing with emphasis because i think about republicans on capitol hill who have fallen so far away from their core republican values. >> yeah. >> and for what? for a four-time indicted rapist? >> well, not rapist. the judge -- >> a judge says rapist. >> judge says that what he did, what the jury found him liable for was what everybody else defines as rape. >> four-time indicted, found liable of sexual abuse but the judge calls it rapist? >> yes it doesn't flow right out, but yes. >> watch the deposition in that case see how he treats the attorney this is a misogynist this is a disgusting man. >> well, stealing nuclear secrets. >> there's that. but people don't care about that. >> nuclear plans.

>> if you care about your children acting that way -- >> they don't. >> i mean, what gets to christians in america who -- >> people who call themselves christians you mean? >> i was just thinking that perhaps appealing to what they want for their children might break through. >> no, they don't care they're putting him up as the example for their children their words mean, you know -- >> a man who would have sex with a porn star, use campaign money for it, lie about it, admit it is true, then treat the attorney of another woman who claims he raped her in a dressing room, and he is found liable of sexual assault of that woman and defamation, then he defames her again, then she goes back to court and he is found liable of defaming her again i mean, do you want your children to act this way >> yes, they do. yes, they do they're part of the cult i mean --

>> i don't get zbit. >> at the same time, so many of these people will go out and judge other people, right, for doing one thousandth of that in their life the kids would call it bizarre, really screwed up. i'd use another word, but it is early. this is a kids' show it's why we have a cuckoo fran and ollie cartoon in between breaks a lot of kids tune in and watch this show. jen, here's the reason why donald trump -- and we know, by the way, i mean, we have known for a very long time, this guy isn't going, oh, i'm built a different way. he worries he worries he's not sitting around. he frets he's the most insecure guy on the face of the earth behind that facade. he has to know what his fiercest defenders on fox news

say. 91 counts. if he goes 90-1, he's going to jail for the rest of his life. 90-1 he could win 90 and lose one every one of those counts. basically, at donald trump's anyone, that equals a life sentence so, yeah, the guy is worried i could see, if i were carrying that around, you, anybody, we would forget what decade we were living in, too, just like donald trump. we'd be going around, you know, did you get your grocery list? yeah, obama gave it to me. you're going to watch your kid play tonight yeah, yeah, he plays with obama. i mean, we'd be throwing people's names around. 91 counts. every one of them is a life sentence the guy, obviously, is crack i think he is losing it, which is why the last thing he wants to do, the last thing his lawyers want him to do is go out

and debate he may give admissions, and his political people don't want him to lose his mind on stage like he did last saturday. >> facade is the right word. it's why this facade of the strongman exists it's because of the insecurities behind it. what i find so interesting about "the wall street journal" editorial, i mean, they really threw, like, all the bait out there, right maybe he's old i don't know, maybe he's scared. i don't know, maybe that's it. to try to prey on his ego, to try to get him to do this. i mean, with the things he's scared about in the "rolling stone" interview, the jumpsuit is just, like, you know -- like, the ideation of what may be coming but republican voters are allowing this all to happen. they don't seem to care he's not willing to debate and, you know, they seem to be willing to back him anyway

you see when he does come up against reporters, you know, in the welker interview, he gets himself tripped up he doesn't seem to be able to -- he's not ableto volley these questions effectively. you can see why they're not wanting to do that plus, the legal concerns >> katty, also love the question, will it be one of the bad prisons? [ laughter ] >> there are no good prisons, mr. president. >> no. >> to jen's point, all of what joe and mika and we've all been saying here is true, but, also, it's true that his lead remains mass i ive within the primary we're not talking about the general election his lead remains massive the rebuttal again on capitol hill yesterday was, yeah, yeah, all the stuff mika laid out, yeah, but what about hunter biden's laptop what about the other bad stuff, the biden crime family what about joe biden being old change the subject that is the message that republican voters, primary

voters who watch cable tv and listen to certain radio shows, that's what they're being fed. none of this is real the real question is about joe biden. >> i'm just making a note to myself, that when i get to 77, i have to drop all the hair dye because it doesn't help, actually the strawberry blonde, however much you put on, you're still 77, apparently must be frustrating, no matter how much hair spray he uses. you're right, that's what they're fed on capitol hill, and that's what republican voters do if you and i tune into conservative news outlets on a regular basis, and the story is all about hunter biden and all about the biden crime family you heard it in the questioning of merrick garland yesterday, this sense of outrage and you can call it faux outrage, but it is there on bucketfuls on capitol hill the question is, yes, he is so far ahead in the polls but democrats would be mistaken to

think it means, if he would be the nominee, his support would crumble. >> right. >> we're in a 46-46 proposition, and even if he gets the nomination, he's going to have a reasonable shot at winning the white house. it's going to be a question of which persuades voters more, the stories about hunter biden and the biden crime family, or the realities of what happened with abo abortion, because there isn't much enthusiasm for either of the candidates, as far as we can see. you have to have the driving forces and see which one gets the few voters who are left to be decided, who knows why, out to the polls >> yeah. jonathan lemire, let's follow up on that. think about that logic as willie said, on the hill, you have people on the hill who are, like, yeah, yeah, he may have raped a woman, and he may have stole nuclear secrets, and he may have -- >> sex with a porn star. >> he may have illegally paid off a porn star. he may have stolen secret

documents that show america's vulnerabilities and also how we're going to invade iran and he may have actually set up a fraudulent scheme to steal the election he may have been responsible for a riot that ended up causing the death of four police officers. but did you see the way google responded to hunter biden's laptop i mean, seriously, they really can do that. and the fact that they can do that is going to be the greatest of mysteries to historians 30, 40, 50 years they're going to be aghast this is going to make the mccarthy era look like a walk in the park >> yeah, they have elevated what aboutism to an art form. one wonders, though, about the electoral dividends they think this could pay in a general election it is obviously different in the republican primary, where most

republicans, just few exceptions, are loathe to criticize donald trump on just about anything we're seeing, and i know we're get into it in detail as the morning goes on, we're seeing an utter civil war among the republicans in the house of representatives right now. a handful of the far-right members are going to likely shut down the government out of loyalty to donald trump and trying to remove kevin mccarthy from his position. and we are seeing so few challenges to trump, and they're letting him. they're turning a blind eye to all of this, but they do so in a small media ecosystem. yes, in the echo chamber on certain websites, on fox news, they can get traction there. they can have this conversation among themselves, but there is no sense of it breaking through the larger electorate. there are worry signs for this president as he heads into the re-election year next year, but there remains the sense that none of the arguments will penetrate with the independent swing voters who are actually

going to decide elections in the handful of states that are going to put the next president in office then we combine that with the images of donald trump next year, no matter what his hair looks like at the time, sitting in a courtroom, actually sitting in a courtroom that's going to resonate, too. there's a sense that, certainly, this white house believes that too many americans will say, we can't go through that again. >> all right we've got a lot to get to this morning, including information out of cassidy hutchinson's new ook she worked in the trump white house. we saw her during the hearings on capitol hill. >> on january 6th. >> which is about, you know, probably the worst day of a lot of people's lives there. she found a story to tell that actually made it worse we'll get to that. >> and it involved rudy giuliani. >> no joke, so gross >> assaulting her. >> so gross. >> well, it's also, i would

guess, a crime. >> twisted and a million other things. ahead on "morning joe," big moments from a contentious house hearing for attorney general merrick garland, where republicans pressed him on january 6th and hunter biden. plus, secretary of state antony blinken is our guest. we have a lot to cover with him, slug including the continued need for military aid to ukraine. did you hear this? there's optimism ahead of a meeting today between the writers guild of america and hollywood studios. >> let's hope. >> we'll have the latest on those negotiations you're watching "morning joe." obama. we'll be right back. oh, oh, oh...i'll be the judge of that.

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live picture of the united states capitol as the sun just starts to peek up. 6:29 in the morning. the senate has voted to confirm its first military nominee in months yesterday, lawmakers voted to confirm general charles q. brown as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the military's top position president biden nominated brown four months ago. a republican senator, tommy tuberville of alabama, has been blocking him and hundreds of other military promotions due to the abortion policy. it provides time off and reimbursement for service members who need to travel out of state for reproductive health care yesterday's decision to hold a vote on an individual nomination circumvented tuberville's block. the senator threatened to call the vote himself, but majority leader chuck schumer beat him to

it tuberville, though, says he will continue his protest. >> i've called for individual votes on these nominees for almost six months. instead of voting, democrats have spent months complaining about having the vote. they want us to use floor time for things like liberal judges, like the one we confirmed a couple hours ago senator schumer could have confirmed these nominees a long, long time ago. democrats still have never shown me one fact to show we were behind on readiness. it's just not true to be clear, my hold is still in place. the hold will remain in place as long as the pentagon's illegal abortion policy remains in place. if the pentagon lifts the policy, then i will lift my hold it's as easy as that >> senator tuberville is essentially trying to make

himself the gatekeeper of which officers are promoted and who sits and waits instead of just getting out of the way and allowing the senate to approve the promotions that these decorated military officers deserve, the senator from alabama, unfortunately and wrongly, is using them as pawns. >> the senate will hold confirmation votes today for the new army chiefs of staff and marine corps commandant. not clear if there will be individual voters for the remainder of the promotions. joe, there are hundreds of them. literally hundreds if they do this one by one, the point to senator tuberville is it will take months to get it done usually, you do these in blocks. >> he knows that. >> for senator tuberville to point his finger at democrats to blame them for this is pretty rich. >> it's preposterous he is holding up, it is important to remember, holding up all these promotions. that's impacting families. that's impacting children of men and women who have dedicated

their lives to serving this country in uniform impacting spouses who already had jobs set up and lined up in other towns. >> schools. >> schools lined up. >> homes. >> again, it's very callous personally, but it is hurting readiness. willie, there was something that stuck out. shows, again, tommy tuberville's ignorance of the united states military and where you go for your information, how the military is doing. he said the democrats have never given me any example, one example of how this is hurting readiness. go to the pentagon talk to the men and women in uniform that have fought in wars, that have dragged their families around from base to base to base for 20, 30 years. talk to them they will tell you how this is impacting readiness for the

ma marines, for the army, for the air force, for the navy, coast guard, everybody it is impacting readinreadiness. it proves he is in this political world, and all he cares about is politics. the politics of making america less ready, of hurting the readiness and the well-being of our troops he's like, oh, no politicians have told me how this hurts readiness. talk to the men and women in uniform, they will tell you. their children will tell you their spouses will tell you. this is bad. it's bad for readiness, and it's bad for the spirit of the troops >> and it's not a partisan question you can ask a republican, ask mitch mcconnell, for example, and will say what you just said. ask military leaders across the political spectrum this is not a good thing to spin this as something that is a democrat's fault is

preposterous let's bring in mychael schnell walk us through how this vote came to be yesterday the question for a lot of people is, if they could have confirmed the new joint chiefs chairman with a vote, why didn't they do it four months ago when his name was put forward? >> yeah, look, willie, this story starts back in march that's when senator tommy tuberville first put his hold on these military promotions, which has lasted a few months now. essentially sen nalt ate democr said they didn't want to hold the one-off votes for two reasons. a, it'd set a bad precedent. these are typically dealt through on block or unanimous consent. there was concern this would change the precedent second the timing, right these take a long time procedural votes and final confirmation votes senate democrats express ed concern that going through the 300 promotions could take

upwards of 150000 days. tuberville said he was going to force a vote on moving ahead with a single vote for the joint chiefs of staff chairman, then senate majority leader chuck schumer did that himself essentially saying tuberville forced them into this position the current joint chiefs of staff, general milley, his term expires october 1st. if the new joint chiefs of staff was not confirmed, the spot would be vacant, which was a concern for a lot of law make rs on both sides of the aisle this week, we went forward and saw the vote yesterday senator shschumer stall -- saw h vote. >> austin yesterday was talking about the family members joe is right, if you want to put your kids in school, want to

know where your family will live, these holdups in promotions are causing problems on that front. what is the pushback been against tuberville from other republicans? have you had republicans saying behind the scenes they don't like this strategy that he is deploying, or are they falling in line? >> it's been public condemnation of this strategy from senator tuberville as mentioned before, senate minority leader mcconnell said this isn't the way to do it. other republican senators have expressed frustration with this being held up. again, you know, it's interesting because the military and defense, of course, is a key priority among republicans historically it's opinion a key priority among republicans. this holdup, this blockade by senator tuberville blocked more than 300 military promotions let's think about the fact there was a real possibility on the table that the joint chiefs of staff chairman position was potentially going to be left vacant i mean, that's a really significant thing. yeah, there has been public

condemnation from both sides of the aisle, particularly, you know, including republicans on this blockade from senator tuberville. >> let me turn to an even more complicated subject, if that is possible, which is, this funding, the bill that kevin mccarthy is fighting this small group of republicans holding things up. there is a narrow margin for the votes in the house where he leads. friends at punch bowl are suggesting that mccarthy already caved to the group in the way he is moving forward with this. what is going on at this moment? will there be a shutdown in nine days >> all important questions, willie answers of which are not right now known. we're trying to figure them out up on capitol hill first, talk about where things stand in the house gop conference it's true that speaker speak nmsspeaker mccarthy did have to cave. he has a proposal for a new resolution, that giving into the

demands from conservatives would bring funding levels down to fiscal year 2022 levels, a number that conservatives had been pushing for it'll also include a bulk of the house gop conference's marquee border bill, minus a controversial provision, and it'll include a study and a commission on the federal debt and the federal deficit. now, the main question s will this have the votes to pass? that remains to be seen. right now,though, it's not looking great. after yesterday's closed door meeting, three conservative republicans came out and said that they are opposed to the bill then you also -- we also heard from congressman matt gaetz and congressman tim burchett they're both saying there are at least seven republicans right now who are a no on this legislation. quite frankly, any cr possible that leads to the question of, will there be a shutdown well, the fact the house republican conference can't coalesce around something right now, it is not good for the shutdown odds. >> no, not good at all

jen, you were -- jen palmieri, you were with the clinton white house and certainly understood when idiots like me banged my head against the wall over and over again we were so sure the government shutdown was going to play well. this never turns out well for republicans. it never does. the reason why is because republicans are the party, from my time forward, that have used government shutdowns for political purposes now, we actually ultimately did balance the budget four years in a row, so we looked -- i look back at it and go, ah, it was kind of rough but, you know. but that's not happening here. these are the same people that raised the national debt more than anybody else untiin the hiy of the united states of america. this congress, these republicans, with donald trump

did that it seems to me, i'm curious what your take is because you were on the other side of this shutdown. at the end of the day, though, this -- doesn't this -- this just hurts every republican, except for the handful that are using it to raise money and raise their political profiles. >> yeah, totally and the small ecosystem that they -- sort of the maga republicans operate in and it works for them but, you know, a few things on this one, you know, the american public has been conditioned for the last 30 years, that when the government is shutting down, it is normally because the republicans and there's normally a bad reason for it. but even allowing for, you know, back in the '90s, the focus was on spending. remember, earlier this year, the house republicans made a deal with the white house to lower spending that's already happened. now, kevin mccarthy and the agreement he reached last night, he is bwalking away from that agreement. what's left here what's left here is the argument

is about trump donald trump tweeted last night or whatever, truth social or whatever he does, to say that republicans should oppose a continuing resolution because it doesn't defund investigations involving him, right donald trump has squarely made this about the government shutdown about protecting him. i mean, people don't like dysfunction anyway, but if the dysfunction is about protecting donald trump from, you know, being held accountable under the law, that's even a bigger loser for the country, but also, you know, for the republicans that are representing districts that president biden won. >> he has an uncanny way of making everything about himself. >> and he has an uncanny way -- this is so important for people right now getting paper bags out and breathing into it, catastrophizing. he has a way of making things

about himself, and he's got way of making the republican party lose elections, as they have every year since 2017 i won't even go down the list. you can do it yourself go from 2017 to 2023, they've lost every year. it's because of the donald trump. he's doing it again. you're combining a government shutdown with a bs impeachment with donald trump being indicted. >> four times. >> stealing nuclear secrets. 91 counts. all of this is a toxic mix for this party again, i talk about historians all the time i'm fascinated by it because i read political history, p presidential history, and i'll be fascinated to see what the take is on why this party couldn't move past donald trump when it became obvious years ago that it was in their best

political interest to do so. >> this was a hot, hot stove that you were told not to touch a million times, and it will be interesting to see why you kept doing it congressional reporter for "the hill," mychael schnell, always good to see you. thank you for your reporting this morning. coming up, the federal reserve keeps rates unchanged as inflation slows down so is the fed done raising rates this year? >> let's go to the big wall and find out. >> oh, yeah, steve rattner is standing by to break it down. >> the southwest wall? >> and what this signals. >> the southwest wall. >> guess what? >> what? >> he brought charts. >> oh, my god. it's not just designed to look good...

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48 past the hour a live look at los angeles. >> will you say, wake up, los angeles? >> no, people are coming in from their parties and stuff. >> oh, that's right. >> there may be an end in sight to the hollywood writers strike. people close to the negotiations tell cnbc the writers rs guild america and hollywood studios are hoping to finalize a deal today. >> no way. >> if the deal is not reached, the strike could last through the end of the year. >> not good. willie and i have a story we want to pitch, so, yeah, this has to end. >> last night, the groups released a short joint statement, saying they've met for bargaining, and those talks will continue today. 11,000 workers have been on strike for more than 100 days. actors joined the picket line in july, leaving the production of

movies and tv shows at a standstill they're calling for higher pay, as well as changes to staffing requirements and protections when it i comes to the use of artificial intelligence. turning now to the overall economy, the federal reserve left interest rates unchanged yesterday, but they signalled at least one more rate increase is on the table oh, no let's bring in former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner, who has more on this from the western wall >> southwestern wall steve, why don't you tell us what exactly happened with the fed yesterday. why did they decide to hold off on raising interest rates? >> they held off mostly because they've raised them so much, they want to give them a chance to work and bring down inflation. the more interesting thing about what the fed did yesterday was it arreleased the quarterly projections on where it things the economy is going

the good news is the fed, like many private economists, raised the forecast for growth this year if you go back six months, the fed thought the economy would barely be growing this year, and now it thinks it'll be around 2% it'll be around 1.5% next year, above the previous forecast. similarly, they expect unemployment to stay lower for longer, and so instead of being up at high at 4.5% by the end of this year, as it had been projecting, it is looking at it being less than 4% the same thing as you go to the out year the strength in the economy, the surprising strength in the economy is now being reflected in the fed's forecast. the implications for that is even though they didn't raise rates yesterday, they did hold out the possibility of another rate hike later this year. they also, in their projection for interest rates, essentially said interest rates are also going to stay higher for longer. you can see here where they were six months ago, where they were three months ago, where they are

today. all the way out here, they expect interest rates to stay higher what is also interesting and worth pointing out is in the long run, they expect the interest rate they set to stay at around 3%, which implies that mortgage rates thatconsumers pay will stay also a good bit higher, between 4% and 5% most likely so it just signals that the era of zero interest rates is over good for savers, not so good for borrowers. >> steve, as we move to your next chart, inflation, obviously, an economic question but a political question as we turn the corner in the presidential election. americans say prices are still too high what did the feds say about the projections for inflation going forward? >> the fed said that, basically, inflation is continuing to come down, as you can see here. this shows you the consumer price index, which came out last week inflation peaked at 9%, and it's come down to as low as 3%, actually this includes food and energy,

which is something the fed likes to take out as it looks at it. it is basically showing inflation outside of food and energy at something above 4% the fed expects that to decline, although it does not think it is going to reach the 2% target for a couple of years, which is part of why it's calling about interest rates remaining higher for longer why is inflation not going to probably continue to come down as fast as we see here it's really driven by wages heavily. wage increases have come down. you can see here, black line is wages coming down. the light blue line is wage increases that people get when they switch jobs typically, if you switch jobs, you get a pay increase you can see what the difference was here but wages are still rising between 4% and 5%. 4% and 5% wage increases are really consistent with more like a 3% or a 4% inflation rate, and so that is part of what the fed is saying. this is going to take a long

time we're not going to see interest rates cut substantially for a good while. >> might get to 2% inflation but not for a couple more years, it looks like the fed is staying. the last chart, steve, not helping inflation is the rising cost of oil and opec, the saudis, russians, have a lot to do with it. >> you guys have been talking about this, so let me put numbers about this the saudis and the russians, put it in the right order because the saudis are the biggest oil exporter in the world, decided to cut production a few months ago. opec production has dropped 2 million barrels a day or 8% over these last few months. that has had an effect on gas prices, not surprisingly gas prices are up 23% this year. they're now at an average of $3.88 a gallon, up from $3.50 back june in california, gas prices are almost $6, about $5.80

this is something that the white house is worried about gas prices are something that you see every time you drive down a street. big posters with the gas price at your local gas station. it's a reminder of inflation that every american sees, and it is one of the big things ha dr that drives political sentiment, and we're obviously heading into an election. >> bill clinton was a big believer in that the gas station prices, if they were going up, that is, like you said, a billboard for inflation. steve, before we let you go, we were talking about the writers strike i know this is a little off topic for right now, but, i mean, it looks like they may come to a deal talk about how important it is for both sides to get a deal. >> look, this has been going on a long time. as you've said in the lead-in, you've had thousands and thousands of writers out of work it did not look, actually, hopeful for a good while i think at least until this meeting last night, people were

talking about it going until the end of the year. as you also said, if they don't reach an agreement now, it could do that. so, look, it is important to get them back to work. it'll have a rippling effect throughout the industry as networks and other media don't have product to put out. movie theaters don't have new movies to show and so on this is important. you know, you put this in context. we are in a period of more labor robustness, shall we say we have the auto strike going on, which is more significant for the economy. that could go on for a very long time and really ripple through the midwest. also having pretty significant political effects. it is a time of labor unrest >> all right steve rattner at the fabled southwest wall, cornerstone, really, of american journalism for, willie, 75 years? >> oh, come on. >> steve rattner, thank you. >> willie, this is great news for us i mean, we've been working on that pitch

we had to stop i mean -- >> okay. >> it's a hard knocks story, but we'll be able to finally pitch it. >> based on true events. escape from a turkish prison you know, when you're partying with keith richards in turkey and he hands you a bag and says, "hold this," you just do it. little did we know, we'd spend the next decade in a prison. >> it was for his mom. >> he said, "it's for my mom." >> i collected rocks on the beach. it's for my mom. we have that one we'll pitch one about a talking key lime pie that -- >> animated. >> i'm doing my pitch right now. starts a social media company. unknowingly, unleashes chaos on western civilization this is where willie and i are going in this strike will just end. >> and we're going to break. >> so many ideas like this. ahead on "morning joe," secretary of state -- >> let's go to hollywood. >> -- antony blinken will be live in studio we're going to discuss mhis

meeting with the vice president of china yesterday, and his remarks as at the united nation security council about the state of the war in ukraine, including russian war crimes "mniorng joe" will be right back if you're looking for a medicare supplement insurance plan that's smart now... i'm 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind

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i hear trump, you know, really for the first time in terms of the way this evidence has rolled out, you know, speaking in the terms of a mob boss you know, giving a direct order to somebody that he probably should have no reason to believe, you know, would lie for him. expecting her to do so very highly regarded person, very loyal to the president, but there's a difference between loyalty and, you know, breaking the law, and that's not a line she was going to cross so it really is trump directly

ordering obstruction >> that was ty cobb, who served as white house lawyer for the trump administration, reacting to that new reporting that donald trump allegedly advised his former assistant, molly michael, to tell investigators she knewboxe of classified documents discovered at mar-a-lago according to reports, michael went on to say that trump wrote to-do lists on the back of classified documents as if they were stcrap paper. >> willie, this is -- as ty cobb said, this is just open -- if, in fact, she testified to this and she'll testify to that in front of a jury, it's just, again, another example of obstruction of justice a guy who lived his life that way, telling somebody, like, when the feds come, to lie to them to say you know nothing about these boxes. >> yeah, that's a direct quote,

by the way, molly michael, "you know nothing about the boxes." there's so much of that mob behavior around, specifically we're talking in this case about the documents and mar-a-lago remember, the i.t. person, who has flipped, by the way, at mar-a-lago, the i.t. person asked to get rid of the surveillance tapes of people moving boxes around, and donald trump calling to check in and say, "just want to make sure we're good," like, you're still loyal, right, still good that didn't last long. he appears to be a cooperating witness against donald trump, but that is sort of the culture from theboss at the top, that everybody needs to pretend they didn't see what they saw well, welcome back to "morning joe" an this thursday, september 21st jonathan lemire, jen palmieri and katty kay are still with us. joining us, we now have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. and editor in chief of the atlantic and moderator of "washington week" with the

"atlantic," jeffrey goldberg is with us this morning. >> he has a smile, like mary tyler moore. he turns the world on with a smile. >> he throws the hat in the air. >> takes a nothing day. >> streets of new york. >> makes it seem worthwhile. >> big smile. >> this is a big smile >> yeah. >> i see it. >> do these guys know how early it is? they have no idea. >> no idea. >> their workday is half over. >> exactly. >> it's nearly nap time. >> we all get up at, like, 3:30 or 4:00, but, yeah, we didn't know how early it was until we saw your face. >> no, come on. >> oh! >> joe. >> he just looked -- >> what a way to start a day thanks for having me >> no, i mean, you look like frazier. >> it's getting worse. >> you weren't able to get off the stool for the 15th round. >> i predict this is going to get better for me as the show goes on.

>> it is. >> i think it is going to -- >> it can get worse. >> yes, you know. >> quiet it's good you're smiling because our top story this hour is enough to make you cry how can a bad day like january 6th get worse? it does. former aide, cassidy hutchinson, who testified before the january 6th house committee last year said she was groped by rudy giuliani shortly before the capitol attack the allegations are laid out in her new book which is set for release next week. according to "the guardian," which has obtained a copy of the book, hutchinson alleges he was approached by giuliani while standing backstage during then president donald trump's speech at the ellipse on january 6th. the former new york city mayor was serving as trump's personal attorney at the time and was leading efforts toverturn the 2020 election results. hutchinson writes, qte, rudy

wraps one arm around my body, closing the space that w separating us. i feel his stack of documents prs to the small of my back. i lower my eyes and watch his free hand reach for the hem of my blazer. by the way, heays, fingering the fabric, i'm loving this leather jacket on you. his hand slips under my blazer and then my skirt. nbc news has not obtained a copy of hutchinson's book, though a person familiar with it confirmed the quotes published by "the guardian" are accurate responding last night on a right-wing network, giuliani called the claim false and totally absurd okay. >> katty kay, first of all, again, she's -- >> so gross. >> she went through so much on january 6th, and we didn't even know half of it.

it's just, again -- >> what a nightmare. >> it's just one shock after another coming from these people they just think nothing matters. they can literally overturn a -- try to overturn a federal election, and nobody will hold them accountable it goes down to this personal behavior, as well. >> yeahm. >> i think what we learned in metoo was to look at patterns of behavior we don't want to play judge and jury, but you can look at patterns of behavior to see whether something sounds credible giuliani is being sued by a former personal assistant who alleges he sexually assaulted her. we've seen video of giuliani in compromising positions and his defense that he put out last night is, why would you believe her? she took two years to come forward. we know victims of sexual assault can take years, if they ever come forward. it's a hard thing to do. it is humiliating. people don't like to talk about it in public you can stack up the behavior. look at cassidy hutchinson's credibility when she testified before the january 6th committee

and think she is a credible witness. there is a chilling detail, where she talks about the fact his frozen fingers, it was january 6th, creep up her thigh. she looks at john eastman, i think kind of almost trying to look for, you know, support in that circumstance, and says that john eastman just looked at her leeringly. you kind of think, what did this poor woman go through, and what was the culture in that environment that was permissive of this kind of behavior >> take whatever you want. that was the culture from the top down >> yeah. >> jeb,n, it has to be said, to, of cassidy hutchinson. it's not easy to do the things she's done within the last year and a half, within the trump world, within the party, the personal assttacks and people tt come after her, and i'm sure she needs security to say these things about people like donald trump, rudy giuliani, who are, in some sense, gods in trump world. it's not easy for her to do this again, this is an allegation if there is a crime here, then we'll see what happens but she's got this book coming

out, and there's sure to be more inside of it. >> also, you know, i think giuliani also talked about how she was trying to sell books you know what? cassidy hutchinson doesn't need to make up anything to sell books. people are interested in what this woman has to say. both of you are write about, like, what this says about the overall culture and what was acceptable, what, you know -- in terms of how women are treated, misogyny, but also, you know, i think about how with the january 6th committee, it was often young women that came forward. you know, the women from georgia that came forward to testify about what happened with them. cassidy hutchinson another woman from the trump press office that were willing to come forward to say what, you know, was really going on there, really brave yeah, cassidy hutchinson has to have security. there's death threats against

her. high price they're paying. >> this is one more glaring example of the depth of decadence and danger involved in this administration. from the presidency on down, from the president himself on down to the people around him. jonathan, in washington, you have to wonder, again, we do it daily, hourly, how many members of the republican narcotisized s behavior, gotten so familiar to it that they regard it as none is outrageous or the depth of danger involved in this? >> certainly, this is what cassidy hutchinson describes as not out of the norm for what we knew about the trump administration, where young female aides were leered at constantly, sometimes even by the then president this is -- there was a culture there, as was said earlier, of people just taking what they want those in the senior positions could treat their staff any way they chose

certainly, that same impulse is part of what fueled everything around the election, where those in power decided they wanted to stay in power and did everything they could to try to overturn it, including trying to upend our elections. we have seen republicans time after time turn a blind eye to this, that they would allow trump in office, and now out of office, to dictate whatever he wants and the party takes it as marching orders. were seeing them rally to his defense again now with all of these indictments. we are seeing them again do his bidding in going forth with this impeachment inquiry, potential by going forward with a gv government shutdown, even though polls suggest americans don't want it and will hold republicans responsible. trump only cares about himself. he demands loyalty but never shows any in return. >> willie, i mean, you see this in politics, in sports, in business, about culture.

it all starts at the top it's important to recognize that this is the "access hollywood" presidency >> the stormy daniels presidency. >> everybody knew who donald trump was. you know, the "access hollywood" tape, as mika said earlier, you had payoffs to porn stars who he then face shamed, said she has a horse face face shamed mika that's back when republicans criticized what donald trump did. >> e. jean carroll. >> e. jean carroll in the depositions talking about she's not my type. she's this, she's that insulting e. jean carroll's lawyer, saying, you're not my type all the way to a judge in new york state saying that what donald trump did to e. jean carroll is called rape in the army, it's called rape by the american psychiatrist association. it's defined as rape by just

about any standard that you use. that's the party that's the party of donald trump. that's the republican party. certainly, that's the culture that was around donald trump so, yeah, so you see this happening, and you understand, you know, rudy giuliani does this, cassidy hutchinson says trump's lawyer just leers at her while this is going on it's a sick culture. this is a culture so-called christians are worshipping right now. christian nationalists are worshipping this culture. >> think about that day. that was happening backstage, this grotesque allegation, while they were preparing to overthrow the united states government on january 6th, to begin a rally to do that. jeffrey, it gets a little worse. a spokesman for rudy giuliani said this is a disgusting lie, a smear against the man who come fronted the nation after 9/11,

invoking 9/11 in this case. >> oh. >> yeah, well, again, you know, can we think of a politician who has fallen further faster? i mean, from america's mayor to this character that we have now in this ridiculous soap opera. one quick point, to add on to something jen said before, i thought it was interesting powerless young women in the system who are making the system work but also watching we were talking about the i.t. person at the top of the hour. it's like, by the way, the definition of a bad day is when your i.t. person flips on you, right? but it's part of the same continuum, right it's the i.t. person it's the loyal but powerless young person who is working in the system they're watching everything. now, it's sort of the revenge of the powerless against these older men who had power and

wielded it in a kind of wanton fashion. >> want to get to your piece, jeffrey, about general milley, and it fit sboos into this. yesterday, the confirmation of general brown as the next joint chiefs of staff comes with little time to spare as milley milley's position expes this month. jeffrey writesquote, it is fair to say that milley came close to red lin meant to keep uniformed firs from participating in politics. it is also fair to say no president has ever challenged the idea of competent civilian control in the manner of donald trump, and no president has ever threatened the constitutional underpinnings of the american project in the manner trump has. the apportionment of responsibility in the american system, presidents give orders, the military carries them out, works best when the president is sane the preservation of a proper civil-military relationship is hugely important to democracy,

but so, too, is universal ceptance of the principle that officials leave office when they lose elections as milleychairman ship, he cedes home 6, the home of the joint chiefs of staff i visited him there. every time he walked me onto the porch, he'd look out theatrically on the city before us, the capitol that was sacked but not burned, and say, "rome hasn't fallen. one time, though, he said, "rome hasn't fallen yet. this is an exhaustive, excellent piece about general milley, who will be leaving now that his term is up very shortly. what did you want to get at with general milley, and what'd you get out of him that perhaps we haven't heard before >> what i realized about general milley, he was put in a position no chairman of the joint chiefs has ever been put in before. they're not supposed to be the people who uphold the constitution

they're supposed to follow the constitution, but it is civilian leaders who direct the military, who are supposed to be there congress is supposed to provide oversight of the executive branch 20 chairman of the joint chiefs and no one has ever had to deal with a president like this and it's totally fascinating to me, what he did in the period between the election and january 20th i mean, he took multiple steps, again, not crossing a line, but doing things no chairman had to do before, multiple steps, both on a domestic and international front, to make sure our allies and adversaries understood we weren't having a nervous breakdown, even though we kind of were having a nervous breakdown, and domestically, to make sure both the trump folks understood that the military was not going to participate in their shenanigans and making the force understand that we don't participate in these kind of political shenanigans, right we're staying in the barracks.

he was like a dervish, running around, trying to keep everybody calm and keep the system from completely malfunctioning. i don't know if he's gotten enough credit for that obviously, he's gotten the attention of of the right wing, who thinks he undermined trump, but what he actually did was he upheld the constitution. >> well, he did. you know, i always go back, jeffrey, to what happened on june the 1st, 2020, when milley misstakenly crossed the street, wasn't sure what was happening, and donald trump went to the ch church milley was seen in pictures. the next day, i believe it was, i thought it was remarkable, he sent out a memo saying, our job is to protect and defend the constitution of the united states and stay out of politics. i thought it was a great signal. even more than that, and something that confirmed what i

told people leading up to the 2020 election when they said donald trump was going to be able to use the military and he was going to be able to, you know, have a coup if he didn't win the election, i said, you don't know the men and women of the united states military it's never going to happen when i saw general milley make a statement, a video statement that went out to every private, every sergeant, every corporate, every general, every admiral in the united states military and said, "what i did was wrong. i am here standing before you. tell everybody, what i did was wrong. i made a mistake i should not have been there our job is not to be involved in politics it's to protect and defend the constitution of the united states." i thought it was one of the most remarkable moments in recent history underlining exactly what true leaders, trained properly,

understand their role to be in the united states military. >> right two points about that. that's an excellent point. you know, that moment, that apology, destroyed his relationship with donald trump donald trump said, only weak people apologize, to him milley said, remember, combat veteran, six tours of afghanistan and iraq, built like a tank i mean, it's not -- >> yeah. >> he said, look, where i come from, apologies are a sign of strength he's talking about the military tradition. talking about his own catholic tradition. but he repaired his relationship with the armed forces with that, but he destroyed it with trump the second point is, the june 1st thing, there is almost a shakespearean thing. he and mark esper, secretary of defense at the time, were convinced they were duped into walking into lafayette square. from that moment on, they were on high alert about the politicization of the military the way trump wanted to use the

military so much of what milley wound up doing five, six, seven months after that situation at lafayette square, that was because he was on heightened alert against the manipulation that trump was trying to do with the military so trump planted the seeds of that forceful response from milley to all of the shenanigans around the election, he planted that june 1st when he tried to get milley to look as though he was on the side of those who wanted to, quote, shoot the demonstrators in the leg it was a pivot that milley made. >> your piece filled with extensive reporting, much time spent with talking with the general, general milley, and it includes a period of time when john kelly, then the president's chief of staff, jim mattis, then the president's secretary of defense, had an agreement. one would not leave washington

without the other being in washington. >> yeah. >> because of the level of danger they perceived this donald j. trump, then the president of the united states, maybe starting a nuclear war. >> right. >> this is the job that general milley has taken, to preside over that amount of danger every day emanates from the oval office. >> right. >> my question to you is about the dangers he dealt with on a daily basis, and do you think he is not a natural candidate for the presidential medal of freedom? >> i'm not going to go there you can go there, and i guess you have. >> yeah. >> i think that the steps he took were so multifaceted. i mean, the first thing he did, remember, there was the allegedly controversial china calls. remember those he called his counterpart in china and said, "look, i know you're seeing a lot of crazy stuff here, but we're not having a war. you know we're not having a war. you can see we're not having a war. we'd be communicating if there was a ramp-up to war." but, you know, what he was doing

there, and, of course, a lot of people on the right misinterpreted that, what he was doing was calming the waters he was calling allies at the same time saying, "yeah, democracy is messy i got it we're cool everything is fine." on the domestic front, again, he was going to the force all the time saying, you know, "this doesn't have to do with us we are here to uphold the constitution there will be a lawful transfer of power on january 20th we are not participating in the politics of this moment. remember, you can't really have a coup without the military. now, the difference between the first two years when grown-ups like john kelly, jim mattis, so on, were in the white house, the difference was, by that point, there were a bunch of hard core trump loyalists in the pentagon. milley at one point had to warn the guys he said, "you guys can end up in jail if you do the kinds of things that you may be doing i'm not saying you're doing them, but we're watching."

this is the reverse of what popular culture assumes a coup would look like. they assume a coup is going to be the generals launching a coup, and, here, the general is looking at civilians saying, "don't even think about it." it's a remarkable record, it really is. >> it really is remarkable if you want to put this in context of where we were, think about before jianuary 6th, the secretary of defenses writing a letter, doing what jeffrey said general milley was saying, don't do it. it is an extraordinary story the thing is, jeffrey brings up another great point. people in china, leaders in china, in russia, in iran, across the middle east, across the world, don't understand our government and don't understand how messy it gets, that it looks a lot messier from, you know, across the sea than it is here

it's why it was so critical that he made those calls and said, "listen, it is going to look messy. just -- we're not doing anything you know, this is democracy sometimes, gets outside the lines. don't worry. you have nothing to worry about. >> a lot of respect for the way he conducted himself, even during times where he went against the values of the military but then called himself out. jeffrey's profile of general milley will be the cover story of the november issue of "the atlantic." you can read it right now on the atlantic's website editor in chief of the "atlantic," jeffrey goldberg i apologize for joe's antics at the top of the hour. it's what he does. >> i'm an optimist >> you just don't show it. >> yeah. coming up, republican congressman mike lawler who called out his gop colleagues over a potential shutdown will join the conversation here on "morning joe." we'll ask him what he calls a

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ukrainian soldiers now are doing, at the expense of their blood, what the security council should do by their vote, stopping russia and upholding the principles. >> ukrainian president za nmsz c zelenskyy calling for more support from the united nations security council in new york city today, the leader of the war-torn country will take his message to washington to meet with president joe biden and members of congress. let's bring in united states secretary of state antony blinken. also joining the table, nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of "andrea mitchell reports,"

andrea mitchell is with us, as well. >> mr. secretary, great to have you with us. where do we stand right now in terms of washington supporting kyiv do you think you still have enough republicans in the house and senate to key this country united in its pushback against vladimir putin's illegal invasion >> joe, first, great to see you. mika, great to see you really great to be here this morning. look, the hallmark of this effort to support ukraine has been bipartisan support. we've seen that from day one conversations i've had with leaders in congress, including republican leaders in recent days, shows that that support remains strong i think president zelenskyy has an opportunity to come to washington, to make his case directly to folks in congress. i think you'll see that support continue to be manifested. it is to vital that we continue to back the ukrainians the way we have. by the way, not just us.

we have dozens of other countries doing thesame thing. the stakes are extraordinarily high you know, we're here in new york at the united nations. this place came together, we tend to forget it because it was so long ago, this place came together after two world wars. the basic idea is countries need to come together, agree on rules on how they'll operate and relate to each other, to ensure we don't have another world war. oo a big part of that was saying, and it's in the u.n. charter, you have to respect another country's integrity. you can't try to bully it, take it over and erase it from the map, exactly what putin has tried and failed to do in ukraine. if we allow to that go forward with impunity, allow putin to get away with it, it opens things up to anyone who thinks, he can do it, i can do it. it's a world full of conflict and hurt, a world we don't want

to be in the interest and stakes are clear. there is a human dimension that touches lots of americans. >> that was the first point, the point about the u.n. charter and sovereignty that you made in your case before the security council yesterday. you added russia is committing in weaponizing hunger, cooperating with north korea in the war effort, fear mongering it's a case you've made the last year and a half. is it your sense the people who need to hear the message are internalizing it are they willing to do anything about it >> it is important we keep coming back, not just to the strong interest that we have in supporting ukraine with all these other countries, but also the human dimension. it's easy from so far away we're in a conference room, to lose sight of that talking big policy issues. i was in ukraine for the first time andrea has been there so many times, as well you know, we went to a small town, about 2 1/2 hours drive

outside of kyiv. went there when the russians came in 18 months ago, they took over this town they herded up all the residents, a few hundred people. they took them to the schoolhouse, put them in a basement a basement unfit for human habitation they put their command post on the ground floor and put people there as human shields it was elderly people. it was women it was children as young as a month old. they kept them there for 28 days in a room not any bigger than this set no air no sanitation. what happened during those 28 days is truly horrific i had -- i saw this room, people who had been there they showed me on the wall a list they kept, a list they kept of local residents who had been executed by the russian invaders, then a list of people who were in that room and who had died in that room, including about ten people, mostly elderly. if they died after noon, the russians wouldn't allow the removal of the body.

you had children in that roomas young as a couple months old, but 3, 4, 5 years old, no room to lie down, to be there with those bodies 28 days until the ukrainians came back. this is one small town in one place in ukraine what we're seeing in different ways over these 18 months are these kinds of abuses and atrocities being committed we can't lose sight of that either. >> when you tell that story, mr. secretary, to your counterpart from beijing or your counterparts from india, who might actually be in a position to lean on putin, who have leverage but aren't doing so, what do they say >> first, do no harm what we want to make sure of is countries who may have aff affinities with russia don't go in and support russia with material support, arms, weapons. we're also seeing something else the last few months, ukrainians have been pushing their own peace proposal we've had a couple meetings where we brought countries

together from around the world, including countries like brazil, like india, like south africa, like china, all coming together to talk about the ukrainian plan for peace. that's progress. because if all these countries rally behind those basic ideas, then i think we can eventually see some movement. the problem now is this, in this moment, pvladimir putin has shon no interest in coming up with a meaningful diplomatic summit. >> i was at an event last night where president zelenskyy was awarded and gave a speech, and it's so compelling in person are you counting on him in person to congress, because a new letter today has enough house and senate members to block the adaid, and they're saying they're going to refuse. >> we all know we've heard him many times president zelenskyy is incredibly compelling, a terrific communicator, but that communication comes from some place deep and real.

ultimately, and i keep coming back to this because i've seen, talked to so many ukrainians the last 18 months, the real difference-maker when it comes to success is the fact they're fighting for their own country, their own 23future, the own liv, and the russians are not that makes the biggest difference keep it in perspective, too. over the last year, the ukrainians have taken back more than 50% of the territory that had been seized from them by putin starting in february 2022. now, the last few months in this counteroffensi counteroffensive, it's been tough. it's been hard going, but they're making progress there, too. this is not the time to give up on them. there's one last thing that is important here we're also working to make sure that we can transition to the kind of sustainable, long-term support that we and other countries can really get behind. that means basically getting to at a point where ukraine is standing on its own two feet militarily, economically, democratically we have 30 countries working on that right now

>> mr. secretary, there's seems to be two conversations happening in new york this week. c the conversation we're ashavinga the moment about ukraine and countries from the global south that are saying, this is a proo priority led by america and european cowan thcountriyies bu we're concerned about climate change and the degree to which we're suffering. how do you reach ut to ukraine, we hear you, the g20, they have a sense of momentum about them, and a feeling that perhaps america is ignoring their agendas. >> if you had an opportunity to listen to the president speak to the general assembly two-thirds, three-quarters was on those issues of concern to people around the globe. he made the case that we need, as an international community, to focus on them we made the case that the united states is, by far, the leading contributor to all these efforts, whether it's on c

climate, food security, building better infrastructure and building it in the right way, dealing with global help all the issues that people care about around the world, we are the number one provider. it's a false choice to say it's either ukraine or it's this global agenda. we have to do both in fact, we are doing both what i heard after the president spoke, talking to my counterparts from around the world, was deep appreciation for the focus he brought to these issues and the appreciation for the fact the united states is leading on them. >> mr. secretary, you mentioned a few moments ago the ukrainian peace proposal could you give us the details of the ukrainian peace proposal this is a peace proposal made by the heads of a government, of a nation, that has been destroyed. it's been destroyed. it is going to cost billions and decades to recover what's going on? >> mike, two things here first, the proposal is grounded in the basic principles of the united nations charter, starting with the territorial integrity,

sor sovereignty, and also looking at elements that would help ukrainians rebuild the country that has been devastated by the russians, and other accommodations it's a strong foundation for starting a negotiation but the recovery of ukraine is hugely important because, as much as the military support matters, the flip side of that is for the country not just to survive but thrive it has to have a strong ek nom rick ek nom i economic recovery penny pritzker, deeply connected to the private sector, will lead our efforts on helping ukraine pursue the economic recovery we see private sector investmen in ukraine private banks will continue to do a lot ultimately, the secret to success is making sure ukraine has a strong and positive

investment equipment and that companies go there we met with a number of leading american companies yesterday here in new york, and i think there is an enthousiasm for working in ukraine that's the secret to long-term success. strong military, strong economy, strong democracy. >> mr. secretary, i wanted to ask you about the middle ooeast netanyahu told president biden they could make history together, and i'm hold told thil is coming together it is difficult, complicated, but it's a three-way deal. israel will give up some land to the palestinians, yet undefined. saudi arabia will be given nuclear power, which is a red line in congress and saudi arabia would recognize israel, which could end the arab/israeli conflict and a lot of other side deals, plus this defense agreement between the united states and saudi arabia,

which will be the first for the middle east. hard to come together, but that is history being made. do you think that this could actually happen, maybe in the new year >> andrea, as you laid out very well, there are a lot of moving pieces here. but the points you made, this should be transformative, is exactly right. we've had decades of instability, disruption, conflict in the middle east. go back to 1979 or even before to move to a region that's more and more integrated, where countries have a stake in working together, in keeping the peace, and, of course, the strong message that it sends if you have the leading islamic country in the world making peace with israel, i think that truly is transformative. but it's complicated to land all these different pieces, it takes a tremendous amount of work we're in the middle of it. it's still a challenge i don't want to predict where it is going to go, but the bottom line is, yes, it's possible. if we can get there, it would be a huge change. >> can it be done with this

prime minister who is, arguably, leading the most right-wing coalition and has a deeply divided domestic situation over what he's trying to do with the judiciary system in israel >> each of the leaders involved is going to be looking, i think, fundamentally to what is their national interest? this isn't about individual leaders. it's not about individual governments. it is about transforming relationships among some of the most critical countries in the world. at the end of the day, i think that's what's going to motivate everybody involved. >> you met with china's vice president -- >> mr. sec tretary, thank you f being with us. >> thank you, joe. >> i know you have to go mika and i want to thank you so much and the entire brzezinski family want to thank you for your recent speech at johns hopkins. >> the school of advanced international studies, their new home at 565 pennsylvania avenue. the brzezinski lecture. >> we thank you so much for doing that. >> it was an honor to do it. you know, mika, i really revered

your dad i got to spend some time with him. got to learn a lot from him. being able to do the lecture meant a lot. >> all right >> thank you. >> means a lot for us. >> thank you so much. >> thank you so much for being here secretary of state antony blinken, greatly appreciate it. >> thank you, mr. secretary. >> andrea mitchell, thank you, as well. we'll be watching "andrea mitchell reports" at noon on msnbc. coming up on "morning joe," in-fighting inside the house gop over the impendi ing government shutdown is heating up we'll talk to republican representative mike lawler from new york about the tensions with the far right of his party to get things done. that's up next on "morning joe." with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley.

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this is not conservative republicanism. this is stupidity. the idea that we're going to shut the government down when we don't control the senate, we don't control the white house, these people can't define a win.

they don't know how to take yes for an answer. it's a clown show. you keep running lunatics, you're going to be in this position. >> i have to say, that hurts, and it hurts because that's what people said about me years ago that was republican congressman mike lawler of new york criticizing his conference's actions regarding government funding. as of this morning, it appears new bill to fund the government may be gaining traction among republicans. ultimately, the republican-controlled house and democratically controlled senate will have to compromise on a bill to send president biden to sign to avoid a shutdown let's bring in now republican congressman mike lawler of new york thank you for being with us. >> thanks for having me. >> i wasn't joking what you said about some of your republican colleagues, people said about many of us back in the shutdown of early -- i think it was 1996. but we learned very quickly, there was no good in government shutdowns. it alwaysblows up in republicans' faces politically

it's always a loser. they know that so what's going on here? >> well, that's exactly right, joe. you know, yesterday, we had a about 3-hour conference meeting. basically, "seinfeld" fans, a festivus, airing of the grievances everybody had the opportunity to have their say, including myself i made the point, yes, i will sign a discharge petition, but if given no alternative and no choice i didn't com i voted against buet bills and i voted against the crazy policies out of new york, but i ratoe in congress to be in the majority and to make a difference for my district, my state, and our country, and so as i said to my colleagues yesterday, at a minimum, we have

to be able to compromise within our conference, put forth a house position, and then negotiate with the senate. it's a pretty basic concept, and basically how our government is supposed to function >> congressman, good morning so for the laymen, for people who don't get to sit in those rooms like that caucus meeting for example, can you explain what's going on here we're hearing about defense appropriation bills and crs, and the bigger fiscal budget what exactly are the dynamics at play, and why are repuwe pushin so close to a government shutdown >> we have a september deadline, and in the absence of passing these appropriation bills, we have to pass a continuing resolution which generally speaking keeps the spending levels flat remaining at current levels for a month or, you know, however long necessary, so that

we can pass the appropriations bills and come to an agreement now in the past, previous congresses including under nancy pelosi, they were blowing right past the september 30th deadline and they were doing packages, you know, throwing everything into one bill. what we're trying to do is ultimately get back to regular order, pass appropriations bills, negotiate with the senate, and come up with a final package. we are going to obviously most likely, barring some miracle, miss the september 30th deadline to pass all these appropriations bills. so we need a continuing resolution, and what i have said to my colleagues is, we can fight it out on top line numbers with the senate on policy writers with the senate, but there's no reason to shut the government down while those negotiations are ongoing it could take a month. it could take two months to get through the appropriations process. ideally, yes, we would have had all these appropriations bills passed, but let's be realistic

here that hasn't happened in this place in decades so we need to go through regular order. we need to continue to fund the government i don't want to screw around with people's 401ks and the stock market i don't want to have our active duty military not getting paid we have a responsibility to make sure that the government continues to function while we are negotiating through the appropriations process, and look let's be clear voters elected, a house republican majority serve as a check and balance to fight it out on spending to rein in the size and scope of spending i believe in that. >> by my count, there are 18 republican members who were elected in districts and states that joe biden won what would a government shutdown do to your own chances of getting re-elected next year, and to the republicans' chances of holding onto the majority in the house? >> look. i'm not too worried about my

chances of re-election we're doing the work in our district this is a district as you said, biden won by ten points. there's 70,000 more democrats than republicans, but i've shown up in every community. i talked to my voters. i'm very direct and blunt and explain exactly what's going on, and we're doing the work on the ground i'm not too worried there. what i am worried about is the impact on the american people that a shutdown would have, and mind you, by the way, we're not saving any money if we shut down we're just going to have to pay interest on the money that we spent during that time period. so it will end up costing the american people more if we shut down >> congressman lawler, in addition to a potential shutdown, you also are -- will next week have the first hearing on an impeachment inquiry. i imagine this is probably not particularly popular in your district as well how are you and the other sort of biden republicans as they're referred to managing -- managing the prospect of that kind of unpopular inquiry as well?

>> look. these investigations obviously started earlier this year in oversight and judiciary. they are continuing as i have said repeatedly. we are not there yet with impeachment. there is a very high bar it should not be political it should not be tit for tat, and the facts and the evidence will determine what, if any steps are taken after this at the end of the day, you know, a lot of this is semantics it's a continuation of the investigation. the ultimate question is whether or not the facts or evidence would bear out that joe biden somehow financially benefitted from his son's deals with russian oligarchs, ukrainian oligarchs, iranian business folks and the chinese. if that's the case, the facts and evidence will show that, and if not, i don't see how you get anywhere near impeachment. >> all right republican congressman mike lawler of new york, thank you

very much for coming on the show. >> thank you >> we appreciate it. and up next, an update on the writers' strike now in its fourth month this morning, there is optimism a deal could get finalized today. we'll have that for you next on "morning joe." (psst! psst!) ahhh! with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily gives you long lasting non-drowsy relief. flonase all good. also, try our allergy headache and nighttime pills. they said millions would lose their jobs. and the economy would collapse. but this president refused to let that happen. instead, he got to work - fixing supply chains. fighting corporate greed. passing laws to lower the cost of medicine, cut utility bills, and make us more energy independent. today, inflation is down. unemployment: the lowest in decades. there's more to do.

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things, but the bottom line is they conclude by saying mr. trump's advisers say he shouldn't appear unless he says something that hurts his legal defense, of course, which he does, but that's a sign of weakness, not strength, and he'll have to answer those questions eventually wlas the former pwhat is the for president afraid of? >> it's the right question obviously it does a disservice to voters, republican voters and our democracy if he doesn't participate in the debates he should, full stop burk right now they're sending no signal he will he skipped the first debate and he showed no slippage in the polls and his lead has grown he's not going to participate next week probably because of the personal animosity he has against the ronald reagan library of all places and he now says he won't go to the third one, and some of his aides raised the possibility of why do it at all? all it does is elevate those

around him he becomes subject to those attacks and he could get pulled to the right on certain issues and out conservatives like mike pence or governor desantis there reminains the chris chrisi factor, going at him one-on-one. and the possibility of trump were he the nominee, not doing general election debates either. none of this is good for the democracy full stop, but also it's not good, you know, for these other candidates who try to take a swipe at him, and it does seem like donald trump, maybe it's an effort to not say something incriminating although he does that anyway, it doesn't seem like he's going to participate. he feels like he can do a glide path to the nomination and start thinking about a general election stance with issues like abortion and visiting those autoworkers next week. >> not only that, but "the wall street journal" suggests -- i mean, if you look at what

happened last weekend, willie, where you looked at him, he just got lost he just blanked and he couldn't even remember one, who he was running against in 2024, and then and i know it was almost eight years ago. it was a long time ago if you are, you know, we've all been around people with dementia, people getting older, people forgetting things. >> or just not knowing history >> well, no. it's his history, so if his mind wasn't jumbled at that moment, he would remember that he ran against hillary clinton in 2016, but he couldn't remember who he ran against in 2016 so he just slid obama in there, and he couldn't remember who he's running against in 2024 so what he did, he just slid obama's name in there. it's just kind of a catch-all, so if you start your career with

a racist conspiracy theory about obama, he's got that back there somewhere. he's living in 2011, and i'll say obama's name people like that and an editorial page suggests that he's maybe just too old to do this. they write, why is mr. trump afraid to confront other republicans without the aid of a teleprompter is he worried he'd look his age at 77 next to younger candidates and you know what? i know for donald, that line hurts because he's seen the video of howed addled he looked and confused he looked when he couldn't remember who he was running against and now you've

got t"the wall street journal" editorial page saying, i guess this guy's, you know, he's afraid he can't do this without a teleprompter and he's too old, which i guess starts raising questions, willie, like, is this really who the republicans -- if they don't look at the four indictments in the stealing of the nuclear secrets and the stealing of war plans and the attempt to steal an election, like, maybe "the wall street journal" is suggesting and i think they are, hey. there's a reason why donald trump is afraid to debate. is it because he's afraid he's getting too old? and he may lose his mind like he did that night when he thought he was running against barack obama. if you are debating somebody and you don't even know who you're running against in the general election, that could cause a problem. i'm not good at this politics thing, but that could cause a problem. >> i think just throwing obama out as a stand-in for all democrats, i think that works, you know it's hard to remember all the names of all the people you've run against.

>> so many of them >> over the course of your career yeah it's one thing to stand at rally with a friendly crowd and to play the greatest hits, and get the cheers and have the music play you off the stage it's another thing to stand on the stage and be under attack although i guess it's an open question whether this field would attack donald trump given the reverence they've shown for him. being on a stage and having to answer criticism and substantive questions from a moderator, that's probably not the best format for him, and as john says, he's looking at the polling even inside places like iowa where he lost last time and he's up by 25, 38, 30 points new hampshire, and of course, the national polls show him up 50 points, and if you are playing with that big a lead, why would you mess with that so it sounds like maybe the wall street yourjournal is trying toi donald trump into thedebates with the age question, but if you are donald trump and up by 50, why risk it? >> i mean, you know, but i guess you just say, these are perilous

times we're living through, mika i mean, if you ask donald trump, we keep going in this direction. we may start world war ii. we can warn the family >> katty kay might need to know about that, and jen palmieri is here, and we'll get everybody in in just a moment, but there's a lot for him to be concerned about when it comes to getting on the debate stage. he might have his own personal insecurities about looking old, but his lawyers -- >> no. >> come on, man. they don't want that guy talking anywhere they want that mouth shut for sure, and new reporting suggests he might help himself just a tiny bit by doing that because donald trump is spending a lot of time thinking about the possibility of going to prison despite what he said on "meet the press. >> when you go to bed at night, do you worry about going to jail >> no, i don't really. i don't even think about it. i'm built a little differently i

guess because i have had people come up to me and say, how do you do it, sir how do you do it i don't even think about it. these are corrupt people that i'm dealing with they're destroying our country i don't even think about it. all i think about is making the country great, making america great. >> i mean, i've got the question, how do you do it how do you do it, sir? i'm talking about the hair did you see that hair? >> i can't talk today, but yeah. >> i'm shallow, but yeah no how do you do it, sir? what person walks up to -- sir everybody goes, sir? >> listen. >> how do you get the hair to do that it's going in just a variety of directions it's like going to do something there. i don't know i would ask him if i saw him, how do you do it, sir? how do you do it >> i just don't know what there is to get out of a donald trump conversation at this point because he lies so much. >> look at the hair. >> it's, like, got to do a full stop at the lies. >> you know inside the lying

there, there's always an admission that's going to send him to jail for even more years. so i mean, and this time, the admission was, it didn't take -- no i know people have said that i took advice from lawyers and so can you not do that anymore? that's what people used to say about donald trump, but donald trump of course, got rid of that defense by not -- oh, no i didn't rely on the advice of counsel. i thought about overthrowing the federal government all by myself >> i turned to my brain. all right. however, three sources familiar with trump's comments t tell "rolling stone" that the former president has been hammering his attorneys with questions over the past several months about what prison could look like for him. they include, would he have to wear one of those jump suits would he be sent to a bad prison and would he serve out a prison in a plush home confinement situation? those questions are in direct contrast with trump's public comments regarding his bigger problems

trump faces 91 felony counts 91 >> 91. that's a lot. >> keep this in mind in four different cases, he has pleaded not guilty to all the charges against him, and i say that 91 with emphasis because i think about republicans on capitol hill who have fallen so far away from their core republican values. >> yeah. >> and for what? for a four-time indicted rapist? >> well, not rapist. the judge -- the -- >> the judge says rapist >> the judge says what he did -- what the jury found him liable for was what everybody else defines as rape. >> so four-time indicted found liable of sexual abuse, but the judge calls it rapist? >> yes it doesn't flow right off -- >> okay. >> okay, but yes >> watch the definition in that case and watch how he treats the attorney this is a misogynist

this is a disdgusting man. >> stealing nuclear skrecrets. >> there's that, but people don't care about that. i wonder if you would care about your children acting that way. what gets to christians in america who -- >> people who call themselves christians you mean? >> i was just thinking that perhaps appealing to what they want for their children might break through. >> they don't care because they're putting him up as the example for their children so their words mean, you know -- >> a man who would have sex with a porn star, use campaign finance money for it, lie about it, and then admit it's true, and then treat the attorney of another woman who claims he raped her in a dressing room, and he's found liable of sexual assault of that woman and defamation, and then he defames her again, and then she goes back to court and he's found liable of defaming her again i mean, do you want your children to act this way >> yes, they do.

yes, they do, and they're part of the cult. so, and the funny thing is at the same time so many of these people go out and judge other people, right? for doing one-thousandth of that in their lives, people will hold up this guy as some, like, latter day prophet it is -- i guess, the kids would call it bizarre, really screwed up i would use another word, but it's early this is a kid's show that's why we have the cartoons in between breaks. kids tune in and watch this show, but, you know, jen, here's the reason why donald trump, and we know by the way we've known for a very long time, this guy isn't going ongoing, oh, i'm built a different way. he worries he worries he frets he's the most insecure guy on the face of the earth behind that facade, and he has to know

what even his fiercest defenders on fox news say like jonathan turley 91 counts and if he goes 90-1, he's going to jail for the rest of his life. 90-1 he could win 90 and lose 1 every one of those counts basically at donald trump's age, that equals a life sentence. so yeah, the guy's worried, and i could see -- if i were carrying that around or you -- we would forget what decade we were living in too just like donald trump, we would be going around, did you get your grocery list? yeah, obama gave it to me. watch your kid play tonight? yeah, he plays with obama. i mean, we would be throwing people's name around 91 counts. every one of them is a life sentence the guy obviously is crack -- i

think he's losing it which is why the last thing he wants to do -- the last thing his lawyers want him to do is go out and debate because he may give admissions and his political people don't want him to lose his mind on stage like he did last saturday. >> the facade is the right word, right? that's why you have -- that is why this facade of the strong man exists is because of the insecurities behind it, and the -- what i find so interesting about "the wall street journal" editorial -- i mean, they really threw, like, all the bait out there, right? maybe he's old, i don't know maybe he's scared, i don't know. maybe that's it. so, you know, trying to prey on his ego to get him to do this, and i mean, with the things he's scared about in the "rolling stone" interview, the jump suit is just, like -- >> yeah. >> the ideation of what may be -- of what may be coming, republican voters are allowing

this all to happen they don't seem to care he's not willing to debate and, you know, they seem to be willing to back him anyway i mean, you see when he does come up against reporters, you know, in the welker interview, he doesn't seem to be able to -- he's not able to volley these questions effectively. so you can see why they're not wanting to do that plus, the legal concerns >> you also love the question, will it be one of the bad prisons? there are no good prisons, mr. president. there is no good ones, but to jen's point, all of what joe and mika, and we've all been saying here is true, but also it's true that his leaved remains massiven the primary, not the general election, and the rebuttal we saw on capitol hill yesterday is we saw, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah all the stuff mika just laid out, but what about hunter biden's laptop what about all that other bad

stuff? what about the biden crime family what about joe biden being old change the subject, and that is the message that republican voters, primary voters who watch cable tv and listen to certain radio shows, that's what they're being fed s that none of this is real the real question is about joe biden. >> i'm just making a note to myself that when i get to 77, i have to drop all of the hair dye because it doesn't help. actually however much you put on, you're still 77 apparently which must be very frustrating for him however much hair spray he uses. >> that's what they're being fed up on capitol hill, and i make a point to conservative news outlets on a regular basis, and the story is all about hunter biden and the biden crime family, and you heard it in the questioning of merrick garland yesterday, this kind of sense of outrage and you could call it faux outrage, but anyway, it's there in bucketfuls on capitol

hill he's so far ahead in the polls, but democrats would be mistaken in thinking that means that if he were to become the nominee, his support would crumble. >> right >> because we're in a 46-46 proposition, and even if he gets the nomination, he's going to have a reasonable shot at winning the white house, and it's going to be a question of which persuades voters more, the stories about hunter biden and the crime family, or the realities of what happened with abortion because there isn't much enthusiasm for either of these candidates as far as we can see, so you're to have to have these driving forces and see which one gets those few voters who are left to be decided who knows why out to the polls. >> yeah, and jonathan lemire, let's just follow that logic as willie said on the hill. you have people on the hill that said, yeah he may have raped a woman, and he may have stole nuclear secrets and he may have -- >> had sex with a porn star. >> he may have legalillegally pd

off a porn star, and he may have stolen secret documents that show america's vulnerabilities and also how we're going to invade iran, and he may have actually set up a fraudulent scheme to steal the election he may have been responsible for a riot that ended up causing the death of four police officers, but did you see the way google responded to hunter biden's laptop i mean, seriously. they really can do that, and the fact that they can do that is going to be the greatest of mysteries to historians 30, 40, 50 years they're going to be aghast this is going to make the mccarthy era look like a walk in the park >> yeah. they have elevated whataboutism to an art form, and one wonders

though about the electoral dividends they think this will pay in the general election. it's different in a republican primary where most republicans, just few exceptions are low to criticize donald trump on just about anything, and we'll get into great detail as the morning goes on, but we're seeing a civil war among the republicans in the house of representatives right now where a handful of the far-right members are likely to shut down the government because of loyalty to donald trump and try to remove kevin mccarthy from his position, and we are seeing so few challenges to trump and they're letting him -- they're turning a blind eye to all of this, but they do so in a snap ecosystem yes, in that echo chamber on websites and fox news, they can get traction there they can have this conversation among themselves, but there's no sense per polling it's breaking through to the larger l electorate, and there are worry signs for this president as he

heads into his re-election year, but none of these arguments will penetrate with those independent swing voters who will actually decide elections in the handful of states that are going to put the next president in office, and we combine that with the images of donald trump next year, no matter what his hair looks like at the time, sitting in a courtroom actually sitting in a courtroom, and that's going to resonate too, and there's a sentiment that america thinks we can't go through that again. and coming up, is the u.s. government headed for a shutdown senator cory booker weighs in live from capitol hill he joins the conversation straight ahead on "morning joe."

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the senate has voted to confirm first military nominee in months. yesterday lawmakers voted to confirm general charles q. brown as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the nation's top military position. president biden nominated brown four months ago. the republican sen tommy tuberville of alabama has been blocking him and hundreds of other military promotions in protest of the department of defense abortion policy. the pentagon provides time off and reimbursement for service members who need to travel out of state for reproductive health care yesterday's decision to hold a vote on an individual nomination circumvented tuberville's block. they called for an effort to show she's not endangering national security, but majority

leader chuck schumer beat him to it tuberville though says he will continue his protest >> i've called for individual votes on these nominees for almost six months. instead of voting, democrats have spent months complaining about having to vote they want us to use floor time for things like liberal judges like the one we confirmed a couple of hours ago. senator schumer could have confirmed these nominees a long, long time ago. democrats still have never shown me one fact to show that we were behind on readiness. it's just not true so to be clear, my hold is still in place the hold will remain in place as long as the pentagon's illegal abortion policy remains in place. if the pentagon lifts the policy, then i will lift my hold it's as easy as that

>> senator tuberville's essentially trying to make himself the gatekeeper of which officers are promoted and who sits and waits instead of just getting out of the way and allowing the senate to approve the promotions that these decorated military officers deserve, the senator from alabama unfortunately and wrongly is using them as pawns >> the senate willhold confirmation votes today for the new army chiefs of staff and marine corps commandant. not sure if there will be individual votes for the remainder of promotions and there are literally hundreds of them if they do this one by one, the point is it'll take months to get this done. they usually do this in blocks. >> he knows that. >> to point his finger at democrats and blame them for this is pretty rich. >> it's preposterous he's holding up all these promotions that's impacting families.

that's impacting children of men and women who have dedicated their lives to serving this country in uniform, impacting spouses who already had jobs set up, and lined up >> schools >> in other towns, schools lined up. >> homes. >> and so again, it's very callous personally, but it is hurting readiness, and willie, there was something that stuck out really to show again tommy tuberville's complete ignorance of the united states military and where you go for your information, how the military's doing. he said the democrats have never given me any example, one example of how this is hurting readiness. go to the pentagon talk to the men and women in uniform that have fought in wars, that have dragged their families around from base to base to base for 20, 30 years. talk to them they will tell you how this is

impacting readiness for the marines, for the army, for the air force, for the navy, coast guard. for everybody. it's impacting readiness, but he's -- see? it proves he's in this political world, and all he cares about is politics the politics of making america less ready, of hurting the readiness and the well-being of our troops and he's, like, oh. no politicians have told me how this hurts readiness talk to the men and women in uniform. they will tell you their children will tell you their spouses will tell you. this is bad. it's bad for readiness, and it's bad for the spirit of the troops >> and it's not a partisan question you can ask a republican you can ask mitch mcconnell for example. he'll say exactly what you just said you can ask military leaders across the political spectrum. this is not a good thing, so to spin this as the democrats'

fault is pretty preposterous as you said let's bring in michael schnell walks through this if they could have confirmed, why didn't they do it four months ago when his name was put forward? >> yeah, look, willie. this story starts back in march. that's when senator tommy tuberville put his hold on these promotions democrat haves said they didn't want to hold off these votes for two reasons. a, concern it would set a bad precedent. as you said before, these are dealt through block or unanimous consent, so there was concern doing these as a one-off was change that precedent, and these votes take time. senate democrats had expressed concern that going through these as you mentioned more than 300 promotions that had been held up could take a really long time,

upwards of 100 days. however earlier this week, senator tuberville said that he was going to go ahead and force a vote on moving ahead with a single vote for the joint chiefs of staff chairman, then senate majority leader chuck schumer got ahead of him and did that himself essentially saying that senator tuberville forced them into this situation, and look. it comes at a particularly important time the current joint chiefs of staff, general milley, his term is set to expire on october 1st. so if the new joint chief of staff were not confirmed, that would be vacant which is a problem on both sides of the aisle. we saw that yesterday, and as you mentioned senator schumer teed up two more votes on stalled promotions. >> mychael, there are many serving overseas and many of them have families and that's why lloyd austin yesterday was talking about the family members.

joe's right, if you want to put your kids in school, and know where your family is going to live, all these holdups in promotions are causing problems on that front. it does have a real impact what's the pushback been against senator tuberville in your reporting? have you had republicans behind the scening scenes saying they like this or have they been falling in line? >> it's been public condemnation as was mentioned before. senator minority leader mitch mcconnell said this isn't the way to do it other republican senators have expressed frustration with this being held up because again, it's interesting because the military and defense of course, is a key priority among republicans historically it's been a key priority among republicans, and this holdup, this blockade by senator tuberville has blocked more than 300 military promotions. i mean, let's think about the fact there was a real possibility on the table that the joint chiefs of staff chairman position was

potentially going to be left va vacant i mean, that's a really significant thing, so yeah there has been public condemnation from both sides of the aisle, particularly, you know, including republicans on this blockade from senator tuberville. >> so mychael, let me turn to an even more complicated subject which is this funding, the bill that kevin mccarthy is fighting this small group of republicans holding things up. obviously it's a very narrow margin to work with in terms of votes in the house he leads. where are they right now our friends at punch bowl are suggesting that mccarthy has already caved in that group in the way he's moving forward with this what's going on in this moment, and will there be a shutdown in nine days? >> all important questions, willie the answers of which are not right now. we're trying to figure them out up on capitol hill first, talk about where things stand in the house gop conference it's true that speaker mccarthy did have to cave bit last night to his right flank for a continuing resolution.

giving into those demands from conservatives would bring funding levels until october 31st, down to fiscal year 2022 levels that's a number conservatives had been pushing for it will also include a bulk of key conferences, minus a controversial provision and it will include a study and a commission on the federal debt and the federal deficit. now the main question is will t this have the votes to pass? that remains to be seen. right now it's not looking great. after yesterday's closed door meeting three conservative republicans came out and said they are opposed to the bill and then we also heard from congressman matt gaetz and congressman tim burchet. there are several republicans right now who are a no on this legislation, and quite frankly, any cr possible. so that leads into the question of will there be a shutdown? well, the fact that the house republican conference can't coalesce around something right now, it's not good for the shutdown odds.

>> no, not good at all, and jen, you were -- jen palmieri, you were with the clinton white house, and certainly understood when idiots like me banged my head against the wall over and over again, and we were so sure the government shutdown was going to play well this never turns out well for republicans. it never does. the reason why is because republicans are the party from my time forward that have used government shutdowns for political purposes now we actually ultimately did balance the budget four years in a row. so we look -- i look back at it and go, eh, it was kind of rough, but that's not happening here these are the same people that raised the national debt more than anybody else in the history of the united states of america. this congress, these republicans

with donald trump did that so it seems to me i'm curious what your take is because you were on the other side of the shutdown at the end of the day though, doesn't this -- this just hurts every republican except for the handful that are using it to raise money and raise their political profiles. >> yeah, totally in the small ecosystem that they -- that the sort of maga republicans operate in, it works for them a few things on this one, the american public has been conditioned for the last 30 years that when the government is shutting down, it's normally because it's the republicans and there's normally a bad reason for it, but even -- i mean, allowing for, you know, back in the '90s, the focus was on spending. remember earlier this year the house republicans made a deal with the white house to lower spending that's already happened, and now kevin mccarthy and the agreement he reached last night, he's walking away from that

agreement, but, you know, so what's left here what's left here is the argument is about trump, you know, donald trump tweeted last night or whatever truth social or whatever he does, to say that republicans should oppose the continuing resolution because it doesn't defund investigations involving him. coming up, the federal reserve keeps rates unchanged as inflation slows down so is the fed done raising rates this year? >> let's go to the big wall and find out. >> oh, yes steve rattner is standing by for the signal. >> the southwest wall. >> guess what? >> what? >> he brought charts. >> oh my god liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? [dog barks] oh.

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the federal reserve left interest rates unchanged yesterday, but signaled that at least one more rate increase is on the table oh, no >> okay. >> let's bring in former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner who has more on this from the western wall? >> southwestern wall, so steve, why don't you tell us what exactly -- what happened with the fed yesterday? why did they decide to hold off on raising interest rates? >> they held off mostly because they've raised them so much that they want to give them a chance to work and bring down inflation, but the more interesting thing about what the fed did yesterday was it released its rojections, its quarterly projections for where it thinks the economy is going, and the good news is the fed like many private economists raised its forecast for growth this year. if you go back just six months, the fed thought the economy would barely be growing this year and now it thinks it's going to come in at over 2% and it's also going to be around

1.5% for next year above its previous forecast, and similarly they expect unemployment to stay lower for longer, and so instead of being up as high as 4.5% by the end of the year as it had been projecting, it's now looking at it being less than 4%, and the same thing is you go into the out year. the strength in the economy, the really surprising strength in the economy is being reflected in the fed's forecast. the implication s for that is even though they didn't raise rates yesterday, they did hold out the possibility of another rate hike later this year and they also in their projections for interest rates essentially said interest rates are also going to stay higher for longer and you can see here where they were six months ago, where they were three months ago, where they are today all the way out here they expect interest rates to stay higher, and what's also interesting and worth pointing out is in the long run, they expect the interest rate they set to stay at around 3% which implies that mortgage rates that consumers pay will stay also a good bit higher, somewhere

between 4% and 5% most likely, and so it just signals that the era of zero interest rates is over, good for savers, not so good for borrowers. >> as we move to your next chart, inflation obviously an economic question, but a big political question as we turn to this presidential election, a lot of good numbers in the economy, but americans say prices are still too high. what did the fed say about its projections for inflation going forward? >> the fed said that basically inflation is continuing to come down as you can see here this shows you the consumer price index which came out next week, and so inflation as we all know peaked at about 9%, and it's come all the way down to as low as 3% actually this includes food and energy which is something the fed likes to take out as it looks at it, and so it is basically showing inflation outside of food and energy at something above 4%, and the fed expects that to continue to decline although it does not think it's going to reach its 2% target for a couple

of years cwhich is part why it's talking about interest rates remaining higher for longer. why is inflation not going to probably continue to come down as fast as we see here it's really driven by wages heavily, and wage increases have come down. you can see here, the black line is wages coming down this light blue line is wage increase that is people get when they switch jobs, typically if you switch jobs, you get a higher -- you get a pay increase, and so you can see what the difference was here, but wages are still rising between 4% and 5%, and wage increases are consistent with more like a 3% or 4% inflation rate, and so that is part of what the fed is saying is this is going to take a long time we're not going to see interest rates cut substantially for a long while. >> we might get to 2% inflation, but not for a couple of more years. as you move to your next chart, steve, not helping inflation is the rising cost of oil and opec, the saudis, the russians have a

loot to do with that. >> i know you were talking about this the last couple of days so let me put some numbers around that basically the russians and the saudis or really the saudis and russians, in the right order because the saudis are the biggest oil exporter in the world, decided to cut production a few months ago, and you can see here opec production has dropped about 2 million barrels a day or 8% over these last -- over these last few months, and that has had an effect on gas prices not surprisingly. gas prices are up 23% this year. they're now at an average of $3.88 a gallon up from $3.50 just back in june. in california, gas prices are almost $6, about $5.80, and this is something that the white house is worried about because gas prices are something that you see every time you drive down a street. big posters with the gas price at your local gas station, it's a reminder of inflation that every american sees and it is one of the big things that drives political sentiment and

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( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. . welcome back it costs an average of $10,000 a year for child care in the u.s often it's a lot more than that. prices that are unaffordable for many americans, and it could get

a lot worse on september 30th. that's when the emergency child care funding that congress allocated during the pandemic, which included $24 billion in child care stabilization grants is set to expire here to discuss is the editor of forbes women maggie mcgrath and vice chair of the forbes and know your value 30/50 summit huma abedin. maggie, your team has been covering this extensively at forbes women walk us through some of the biggest ramifications for families, child care facilities and the broader economy. >> well, the ramifications could be devastating here. there are an estimated 70,000 child care facilities that could close as a res this lost funding, and more than 3 million children could lose their spots child care. it's worth noting that even with all those facilities don't close, there will be kids who lose their spots because 2tuitio

will go up because of the lost funding and it will become even more unaffordable. the cost to parents, $9 billion in lost earnings from reduced working hours or leaving the workforce entirely then the cost to employers and state economies is $10 billion because of disruptions to the workforce. f phones are ringing off the hook from ceos worried about this issue and advocate for more support for child care because it is the key to unlocking american innovinnovation >> huma, i'm thinking about the moms who are going to be impacted here, many who returned to the workforce in record numbers since the pandemic wound down how are they going to get child care, and how concerned are you

think about threatening women's recent workforce gains >> i think it's not just devastating for women, but it's devastating to their families, to child care providers and ultimately to our economy. when you think about this investment the federal government made two years ago in this emergency spending of $24 billion that you just referenced, that really at the time was kind of an experiment in that it's the largest investment the federal government has made in u.s. history that went specifically toward child care. fast forward two years later, what was the impact of that investment you have 77% of women between the ages of 25 and4 who are working or looking fork, 76% of women of working age re working as of this june. you the workplace genderas

slrunk 10.5% of gu, a record low. 70% of women who have children under the age of 5 were employed in june of this year these are measurable numbers if you're going to take all of that away at a time when child care costs are going up, not down families are paying more for child care than they are for their mortgage we're not just standing at a cliff. we're about to get pushed off in a week congress has to act rapidly or we're going to be in the midst of a crisis that will only get worse. >> keep us posted on that. before we go, i want to switch gears, because we have some exciting news about forbes and know your value's upcoming 50 over 50 global list. you remember we went global like the minute our first list went out in the u.s. because of the tremendous success

tell our viewers the news. >> i'm thrilled to announce that nominations for the third annual 50 over 50 asia are now open people have wanted to submit names, so we have the ability to do that now. we are looking for women over the age of 50 who are creating their greatest professional impact in asia, in europe, in the midding dle east and africa. your birthday has to end in 1972 or earlier if you're born in 1973, you're too young. we are looking for founders, for ceos, for visionaries, for culture creators if that describes you or someone you admire, please go to

portipor forbes.com to do so until december >> we are finding so many women over 50 reaching their greatest success and they highest impact. yes, you cannot be on the list if you're 49 1/2 you're too young maggie and huma, you're both too young. thank you both very much learn more about the 50 over 50 nominations process for our upcoming global list at both forbes.com and knowyourvalue.com. and we are edging into the fourth hour of "morning joe" at 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. attorney general merrick garland faced aggressive questions yesterday before the house judiciary committee. i don't know how tough they were, but they are aggressively presented. let's just put it that way republicans put on a show, accusing garland of interfering with the special counsel investigation into president biden's son hunter and the indictments of former president trump. meanwhile, house republicans met for more than two hours last

night, trying to come up with an agreement just among themselves on a path to keep the government open in a moment, we're going to get reporting from nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. first, nbc news correspondent ken dilanian has more on the attorney general's heated testimony. >> reporter: facing intense political attacks, attorney general merrick garland delivering a blunt message to congress, his justice department is independent. >> i am not the president's lawyer i am not congress's prosecutor the justice department works for the american people. >> reporter: garland appointed the special counsel who indicted hunter biden last week on felony gun charges after a plea deal fell apart hunter biden says he intends to plead not guilty but chairman jim jordan, who's leading an impeachment inquiry into the president blasted

garland for not prosecuting felony tax charged related to income the from hunter biden's overseas business dealings. >> why did you let the statute of limitations lapse >> this investigation was being investigated by mr. weiss, an appointee of president trump >> reporter: former president trump indicted by special counsel jack smith for attempting to overturn the 2020 election and mishandling classified documents, pleading not guilty in both cases, republicans arguing the doj is engaged in prosecutorial overkill. >> the fix is in. >> reporter: democrats defending c garland, saying republicans can't back up their claims facing hours of intense questioning, garland flashing anger in response to a question about whether his department is targeting conservatives including catholics. >> the idea that someone with my family background would discriminate against any religion is so outrageous.

>> reporter: also refuting the charge by mr. trump that president biden ordered his indictments. >> excuse me, biden political indictments. >> he said he had nothing to do with it. >> he said to the attorney general "indict him". >> no one has told me to indict. in this case, the decision to indict was made by the special counsel. >> reporter: this morning, chaos in congress as the government lurches toward a possible shutdown amid a battle over spending with no clear end in sight. >> nobody should be leaving town until we sort this out. >> reporter: the federal government runs out of money at the end of september without congressional action, it shuts down on october 1st for the first time since 2019. >> not september 30th. the game is not over, so we continue to work through it. i've been at this place h many times before we're going to solve this problem. >> reporter: democrats and some republicans have argued for a stopgap plan to fund the

government through 2024. house republicans backing away from a deal struck with president biden earlier this year, are demanding steep spending cuts of roughly 300 $ billion, slashing education, nutrition and environmental programs this week they have struggled to pass anything at all the stalemate frustrating even house republicans. >> what do you say to people back home who expect you guys to get this very basic function of your job done and fund the government >> we're dysfunctional it's that simple we are so dysfunctional. >> reporter: a government shutdown would force hundreds of thousands of federal workers to be furloughed or work without pay until the shutdown ends. national parks would be closed and government services like food safety inspection, passport applications and small business loans would be loslowed democrats and president biden hoping to lay the blame at the gop's feet. >> they're back at it again, breaking their commitment,

threating m ening more cuts and threatening to shut down the government again. >> joining us is cory booker of new jersey, a member of the foreign relations and the judiciary committee. thank you for being on this morning. first of all, what do you make of this effort to investigate the president and his son hunter and the impeachment inquiry as it stands now? >> mika, i just want to say something. your last segment on the cliff on child care is probably one of the most important issues to our economy, to our children, to our country right now. it's not getting as much attention. i was so happy this show is right on point to really highlight that we are heading toward a fiscal cliff that will literally send lots of mothers who are out there in their jobs working unfortunately without the ability to afford child care, who will lose their jobs and

stop earnings to billions of dollars and our children will lose high quality child care that's necessary for their growth thank you for covering that. it's not getting enough attention in washington right now. it's very frustrating to me. also frustrating to me, frankly, is the unwarranted attacks on the most independent leader of the judiciary we've had in a very long time, wunlike the trup justice department who he thought was his personal lawyer, he's onesomeone with integrity d independence yesterday was a mockery of what the justice system is supposed to be about. >> let me ask you about the effort to get a spending bill done before a government shutdown deadline, next saturday at midnight next weekend what is your sense of what's happening over there

if they send you a continuing resolution, what will be the reaction of the senate >> well, i'm glad you say over there, because there actually has been an incredible bipartisan progress over here with spending bills voted out of committee in a bipartisan fashion. you see the kind of commitment we have to getting the government funded. on the other side, i think the majority of folk over there from democrats and republicans could get something done, but the speaker, it seems, is being held hostage by a handful of people who have no justifiable reason to throwing our economy into the ditch by not funding the government, which would cause incredible hardship and a self-inflicted room. for what reason? the most profligate, irresponsible funding practices i've seen was under the trump administration and most of these characters supported that, the largest increase in our debt, in

fact, of any president was done under the four years of donald trump, and they said nothing to say this is somehow about fiscal responsibility is the height of hypocrisy. >> senator, let's get back to the child tax credit you were just talking about that mika raised it was in effect for one year, january to december two years ago. it was allowed to expire my question is twofold one, why was such an effective and efficient law allowed to expire when it turned child poverty around by a huge percentage, and what can be done to reenact it? >> these are two separate issues it's all about that idea of family values, of supporting the merge american family. in one year we're going to see the destruction of the incredible child care steps that we took during the covid crisis and allowing to lapse the child tax credit, which really helped

about 85% of americanfamilies got a benefit. it is technically the biggest middle class tax cut we've had in a generation. and because it was a fully refundable tax credit, it virtually cut our poverty rate in america in half, our child poverty rate, which demonstrates, reveals the moral obscenity that our child poverty in this country is not inevitable it is a policy decision. we do not have to tolerate this lel poverty every dollar we spend getting a child above the poverty line saves taxpayers about $5, because children above the poverty line have less engagement with the police, have less engagement with hospital emergency rooms. so here is two policies that that was a taxpayer investment in the american family that produced incredible dividends for our economy, lowered government spending, kept us stronger and safer that we now

have allowed to lapse. that's why i don't understand this idea of family values the stress and the strain that american families are under right now making ends meet, dealing with higher costs, the stress and the strain, the constant cortisol in the bloodstream of american families because of economic pressures. and here we just allowed two things, helping people have affordable child care and having people have a child tax credit that is a savage blow to the check hea economic health of our country >> senator booker, a thing happened yesterday that hasn't happened in a while. there was a military promotion voted upon in the senate the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff was approved. your republican colleague senator tuberville says he's not going to give up his blockade. talk to us about what can be

done now are democrats considering doing what you've done the last couple of days, taking these individual votes, as time consuming as they will be, or is there something else you can do to pressure the senator to give this up? >> i don't know what kind of land that we live in, but we were as a full senate in the classified briefing with our intelligence leaders and our military leaders and amidst talking about urgent issues involving the war in ukraine, you had the head of the joint chiefs of staff, you had the secretary of defense make a strong, emotional even, at least i felt the emotion in the room, appeal to the senate and to tommy tuberville specifically to end this because it is undermining the effectiveness of the united states military again, this slow erosion of our

institutional norms that don't hurt one party or the other, but hurt the institutions that are the bedrock of our democracy here's yet another moment where it's not only eroding norms, never done before, but actually undermining the effectiveness of the united states military at a time that we have crisis points around the globe that need our readiness and need folks to be focused on protecting our country. do i expect schumer to continue to do this we're going to do whatever we can to make sure our nation is safe and strong. unfortunately, a lot of republicans, i know, believe what he's doing is beyond the pale and putting us in a more perilous position. the problem is it will take an inordinate amount of time to do so to go around him. the right thing is to left this hold and try to litigate his issues through less destructive means. >> democratic senator cory

booker of new jersey, thank you very much for being on this morning. we appreciate it. >> i'm more grateful for you all in some ways sometimes you give me a needed dose of sanity in mornings when i'm walking into situations that don't make sense, so thank you >> thank you >> thank you very much >> that's very kind. >> that's much kinder than what other people have said we appreciate it, senator booker thank you so much. who was on that told us we drove him crazy a couple days ago? >> yeah, but a lot of people say thank you, you bring me my sanity in the morning. >> that must be a brand of coffee so jonathan lemire, this is the "wall street journal." rupert murdoch just stepped down as chair of fox and news corps

after a seven-decade career and says at 92 years old murdoch will exit his role atop each company in november. lachlan murdoch will be the sole chair of that company and continue as executive chair and ceo. they write, murdoch stepping back in an important moment for boast wings of his media empire as they confront a fundamental challenge. fox nis wrestling with the profound implications of cable cord cutting and the growth of streaming. they're trying to find the right formula for digital growth amid a fierce battle for subscribers and online ad dollars. it is hard not to look back at the career and conclude what the "wall street journal" concluded along with ted turner, sumner

redstone and a handful of other media titans, this guy really helped shape the media landscape we've all been living through for the past 30 years. >> rupert murdoch is unquestionably a media titan, but also a political one he gave birth to fox news here in the united states, which became the first conservative leaning cable network and has become such a dominant figure in republican and national politics now for almost 30 years. everything you said is right this is a moment of transition for both the newspaper industries, which of course he owns a lot of british tabloids, the "wall street journal," the "new york post" as well as television as well that's all significant lachlan murdoch is now going to be running he is see politically as perhaps

even to the right of his father on many issues, more of a populist we'll see how this shakes out for this republican primary going forward and the national media landscape writ large in the months and years ahead of course rupert murdoch's age suggested this was coming sometime soon. it ends a game of real life succession wondering who would take over. this is a seismic moment for the media and political landscapes of our country. >> it is, except as jonathan says, lachlan murdoch kind of has been running the show for some time. rupert murdoch at 92 years old was fully expected to step aside at some point. we kind of know what fox news is going to look like he started in the 1950s in australia with one newspaper that his father had invested in, built it from there, moved to the u.k. and then came to the

united states. this has been a 70-year enterprise for rupert murdoch, which officially ends in november, but as i say, the tone and tenor of the coverage likely will remain the same under his son lachlan. >> mike barnicle, you look at the challenges to fox overall. it's surrounded by media giants. the challenge to the "wall street journal," the times of london, these other outlets -- the "wall street journal" obviously excellent reporting and along with the times, my go-to newspaper every day. the media is facing challenges from all sides you add on top of that lachlan murdoch at fox news also going to be handling the fallout from a $776 million payout, another

billion plus settlement that may be coming in another lawsuit against fox. these are challenging times for all media brands without rupert murdoch at the top, these are obviously going to be pretty challenging times. >> joe, you can't look at the media landscape and pick out an individual media company, a pure media company that isn't having some difficulty given the pace of change in the media even disney is having problempr. rupert murdoch is one of the more significant features of the 20th and 21st century when it comes to media rupert murdoch and roger ailes, the two of them changes the nature of the political landscape that we talk about every day, that we've talked about for two or three decades they changed it. they changed how people think of

politics in this country i think when historians look back at how they changd it, it wo won't be positive. it will be negative because of all the dissension and negativity they injected on purpose into politics. rupert murdoch is a media titan. there's no doubt about it. at 92 years of age, he's going to leave the stage, i guess, but we'll see what the verdict is for history on him. in one of his first new policy positions, former president trump promised an eventfu full of supporters in iw yesterday that he would invoke a centuries-old law called the alien enemies act to deport suspected gang members from the united states. let's bring in vaughn hillyard live in des moines and was at yesterday's event.

>> reporter: for all of the steeping in legal minutia we have engaged in over these last months, i think there's an important reality we also should come to terms with that is that there could be a president trump again. in january of 2025 he could begin to implement policies, executive orders, continue to focus on an ever increasing executive branch that's why yesterday's immigration rollout of his latest policy proposal is notable, suggesting that he would go back to an eisenhower era deportation plan of course, back in the 1950s, that was known in a derogatory term as operation wetback, in which a million and a half mexican nationals were deported from u.s. soil perhaps the most notable proposal of donald trump was the potential invoking of a law that is already on the books that would hand the president unilateral power to deport individuals who are non-citizens over the age of 14

take a listen to donald trump last night >> we'll carry out the largest domestic deportation operation in american history. and i'll also invoke immediately the alien enemies act to remove all known or suspected gang members. we have tremendous numbers of gang members, ms-13, the worst gangs in the world, they say, the drug dealers, the cartel members from the united states ending the scourge of illegal alien gang violence once and for all. >> reporter: donald trump last night also said that he would reimplement his travel ban, but also expand it of course, joe biden ended it on his first day in the white house on 2021. that was the nearly all-out ban of individuals from five majority muslim countries. donald trump saying last night that he would expand it in a second term and suggested that

he would deny entry into the u.s., in his words, to communists and marxists. he provided no further details on how that would work but donald trump eight years ago was sort of on the outside of his republican party instead, he was able to galvanize a base of support in that party that led him to the white house. donald trump clearly views this as an opportunity, one that he is going to lay out in very dire terms as he heads towards a potential republican nomination again. >> vaughn hillyard, thank you very much for your reporting coming up on "morning joe," negotiations to end the writers strike appear to be moving in the right direction. we'll get an update on where things stand ahead of another day of meetings. and we'll be joined by the israeli ambassador to the u.n. following his protest during a

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in new york as the president of iran delivered a speech at the united nations general assembly, monstrators gathered outside to denounce the president's policies, while inside the israeli ambassador to the u.n. held his own protest. gilad erdan was escorted out of the room after he waved a picture of mahsa amini, the iranian woman who died after being arrested for not wearing a hijab properly he posted this video on social media calling the president of iran the, quote, butcher of tehran the ambassador joins us now. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> tell us more about the moment at the u.n. general assembly what was your message? >> look, last week we commemorated one year to the brutal murder of mahsa amini by

the iranian regime her murder sparked a wave of big protests all across iran where many protesters were executed. and here inside the u.n. that was founded in order to prevent atrocities and give voice to so many people around the world, this mass murderer was accepted, was given the red carpet treatment, and all the ambassadors or many of them stayed inside. i felt i need to do something to draw the attention of the international community to the atrocities that this ruthless regime is doing every day in iran i peacefully, silently held up the photo of mahsa amini, and suddenly i was dragged outside of the general assembly by the u.n. security.

i have to admit i was shocked. but since then, i get thousands and thousands of e-mails and text messages from iranians, from all across the globe telling me how much they were moved and emboldened by my action. >> this all comes, mr. ambassador, as israel and the saudis are discussing a deal secretary blinken was here a moment ago explaining the framework of the deal. the iranians said any deal between saudis and israelis would be a stab in the back to the palestinians >> that's a lie, obviously first of all, we are grateful to the administration to president biden for all of their efforts to include israel. if this piece is achieved, it's going to be a historic piece that probably will end the conflict between israel, the jewish state and the muslim world. it's definitely not going to be a stab in the back on the contrary, if this piece

is achieved, it will increase the chances that in the future it will have a domino effect and get the saudis in addition to the emiratis, the bahrainians and other constructive players that can mediate and help us achieve peace with our palestinian neighbors. >> it's a pretty extraordinary moment yesterday you are the israeli ambassador to the united nations. there's a certain decorum that the u.n. operates by what's the reaction in your own country? why did you as the israeli ambassador feel it was so important to speak up on behalf of this iranian woman? >> for many years, we have close relations with iran until the revolution back in 1979. we believe that iran poses a

threat to the entire world it's not only a threat against israel we just heard the saudi crown prince explaining that if iran might acquire nuclear capabilities, the saudis will have to defend themselves also with nuclear weapons so we see iran recently kicking out the inspectors from iran we see them blocking the exits to the nuclear sites, cameras, footage from the international atomic energy agency so for us, iran poses an existential threat they say loud and clear they want to annihilate the one and only jewish state. but as i said, it poses a threat to the entire world. for me, this is the first commitment to draw the attention of the world to the threat that iran poses where should i do it other than the u.n., as i said, that was

founded after world war ii, after the holocaust in order to prevent such atrocities from occurring again? >> mr. ambassador, good morning. i was there covering as your prime minister mr. netanyahu met with president biden yesterday on the sidelines of the united nations. both men expressed optimism about this possible deal to normalize relations between israel and saudi arabia. but president biden stressed that the palestinians had to be a piece of this, a two-state solution, and that certain agreements had to be made. what kind of commitments is the israeli government willing to make >> i think that having a realistic approach, no one truly believes right now the two-state solution can be achieved we all heard the palestinian president abbas only a week ago almost blaming the jews for the holocaust. he continues to pay terrorists right now, hamas, a designated

terrorist organization is controlling gaza what we are hearing from the administration and fralso from h saudis, they want to see the daily life of the palestinians be improved. as prime minister netanyahu stressed yesterday in front of the president, we are willing to take serious steps to help the palestinians but of course they should collaborate with us. again, we hope this process, together with the saudis, with the leadership of the united states, can include the palestinians and also facilitate the new steps that would help them ease the daily life of the palestinian people they are our neighbors, and we also want to improve their life. >> mr. ambassador, let me ask you about the appeal at your supreme court in israel last year to the law that was passed in july that many people protesting in the streets of your country, even members of your military are protesting,

saying it takes away an important check and balance against the government, removing some of the power of the supreme court. what do you say to critics who say that is a critical check and balance within the way your government operates and it should be in place >> i think what we're seeing now in israel is an internal debate about the right balance. you know, after 75 years, many of us don't feel we have the right balance between branches of power of government so this should be an internal debate for israelis to decide how to balance between different branches of power. we see hundreds of thousands of people freely protesting all this debate is being conducted through democratic means. so i don't feel that we are jeopardizing our democratic values. >> do you think the supreme

court should have the power to determine whether government action is reasonable, as the law says >> you know, i'm the ambassador, and i should respect whatever our parliament decides right now the parliament passed the legislation cancelling the re reason there are other reasons how the supreme court can intervene or change decisions of the government or the paiament it's not that right now we abolish the supreme court in israel it's still very powerful, but it has other authorities how to intervene and stop governmental decisions from happening if they think that's what they should do. >> israeli's ambassador to the united nations, gilad erdan, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you for having me coming up, positive signs in the stalemate gripping the entertainment industry as writers and producers are set to return to the negotiating table

today in hopes of finalizing a deal to end the months-long strike. before we go to break, joe, you have some personal news. >> yeah. i want to talk about a friend of our family that we lost from pensacola, nancy hellman stafford, a pennsylvania native, a schoolteacher, she was active in christ church in pensacola, florida, in st. john's church in tallahassee. she was married to bill stafford, the love of her life, and she was certainly the love of bill's life for 64 years, was proud mom to three boys, six grandkids and so many other family members and friends she was incredibly active with her family and community, so active that when her husband was appointed by gerald ford as a federal judge in 1975, she would go to judicial events. they would ask nancy where she lived. she would laugh and say, in a

blue station wagon, where i drive my boys around all the time well, nancy now lives forever in the hearts of our husband and family members and friends like me, who were so blessed to have her cross our path we'll miss you, nancy. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today.

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a source close to negotiations telling nbc news that talks wednesday were productive and that they're hoping for more progress thursday. >> there's hope in the air for the first time in a long time. >> reporter: late wednesday, the writers guild of america, which represents more than 11,000 writers, issued a joint statement with the amtpt which represents streaming services and studios, including comcast, the parent company of nbc universal, saying simply both sides met and will meet again thursday sources close to the negotiations tell cnbc after wednesday's meetings writers and producers are near an agreement and hope to finalize a deal today. sources also tell cnbc if a deal is not reached, the strike could last through the end of the year nbc news learning top executives attended negotiations for the first time, includinge ing disns bob iger and others. those talks are usually led by

labor relations representatives and top amtpt staffers >> i'm hoping they're really coming in good faith. >> reporter: online skepticism from some wga members, one posting, i'll believe it when the wga tells me they reached a deal the main sticking points remain, wage increases, residuals in the streaming era and the use of artificial intelligence. >> this has been devastating as a wga writer on strike. >> reporter: the effects felt by thousands since hollywood has been shut down with actors also on strike in a separate dispute. now from the picket lines to a-listers, many urging both sides to move forward. >> i feel as if everybody understands it's time to get on with it, but we're all in support of a decent and fair wage >> let's hope that reporting is true that they're going to finalize something today next, best-selling authors

george r.r. martin and john grisham are among a group of writers suing the company behind chatgpt. we'll explain y whstraight ahead on "morning joe. ays say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ thursday night football on prime. it's on.

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♪ live picture of seattle at 6:48 in the morning. there is a new battle this morning over artificial intelligence a group of authors has filed a class action suit against chatgpt. stephanie gosk has detailed. >> my books have been taken and i didn't even know about it. i wasn't asked about it. i didn't approve it. >> reporter: michael connolly, whose novels have been made into films like "the lincoln lawyer" and tv series "bosh" says he and thousands of other writers have been ripped off. >> there's no denying ai it's going to be in our future what is a structure that makes

sense for authors? >> our books were sent into the big maw of i. >> reporter: now connolly and dozens of other authors are suing the maker of chatgpt for mass copyright infringement. according to the suit, chatgpt has already been used to create complete unauthorized versions of books by a number of authors, including george r.r. martin, creator of the novels which "game of thrones" was based on and who was also part of the lawsuit. >> it's just not fair. why should i take a year to write a 40 why should i take a year to write a 400 page novel if in 15 minutes it can be stolen and redistributed. >> other writers in the suit include john grisham and ellen hill debrandt, author of the perfect couple

ai relies on large language model. those models are trained using massive amounts of text. open ai doesn't say where it gets all of the material some of it is copyrighted. >> the reason they can write so well is because they've ingested hundreds of thousands of books and they've done this without permission, without payment. >> reporter: in a statement to nbc news on the latest lawsuit, open ai says it is working with authors to discuss their concerns writing we respect the rights of writers and authors and believe they should benefit from ai technology in response to a previous similar lawsuit, open ai argued the case be dismissed in part because courts have recognized that the use of copyrighted materials by innovators in transformative ways does not violate copyright. connolly and the other writers say they don't buy it arguing ai threatens not only novelists but creative work of all kinds >> i think it's just a threat to

the spark of creativity. i think there's something mystical and magical about it, and if you believe that like i do, you also believe it could go away. >> so interesting, stephanie gosk reporting there meanwhile, books have been challenged in libraries across the country at historic rate this is year according to a new report from the american library association, there are close to 700 attempts to remove books from libraries in the first eight months of this year. in addition, more than 1,900 titles were target for censorship from january through august the report notes most of those titles were written by a person of color or a member of the lgbtq community. joining us now, the co-owner of the wonderful independent bookstore that we all love around this table, parnasuss books in nashville ann patchett, great to have you here we go up to the street to the

bluebird and spend the whole night in green hill, it's the best. >> come by, play with the dogs browse i was watching you watch the ai story and listen to the book banning. we are really in an extraordinary place for literature at this moment, are we not >> yes, we are, and yet the most important thing is great books are being written and great books are being read, and that's the thing that we want to never lose sight of. literature is really alive and well and bookstores are alive and well. >> as an author and someone who sells books at an independent bookstore, how do you see your role pushing back against this book banning that we've seen >> i think that what's important is i just keep standing up and saying this is crazy it's a huge distraction. we're not protecting our children from the things that we need to be protecting our children from. if the conversation is constantly around banning books, we're not talking about banning

guns the idea that we're keeping our children safe from a couple of middle grade novels and yet anybody can carry an open weapon in nashville, it seems extremely wrong to me. >> we saw tragedy right up the road from you not too long ago. >> a mile from us at covenant, yes. >> what are your thoughts on the clash of politics and culture. as you pointed out, removing books from library shelves they're removing books from reading listing or elementaries, to kill a mockingbird, stuff like that. on the other hand, more guns, fine the clash of politics and culture, it threatens not only your very life with the kbuns guns but it also affects your child's or young student's capacity to learn about empires and ideas beyond their scope and where they live. >> right, and it's about learning about lives that are different from yours, and that's

how we build empathy and compassion, and that's -- we read everything when i was a kid, absolutely everything we weren't afraid. we were enlargened, emboldened. >> libraries and newspapers used to be places you could go anywhere in the world without a travel ticket. >> kids have access to the internet, they've got their phones it's not that they can't get these books, it's that the conversation gets tied up with what books are on the shelves. a lot of these books aren't banned yet people aren't even reading the books that are banned. one of the books on the banned list is andrew solomon's far from the tree. it's 900 pages show me the high school student who's going to read that book. it's just kind of creating a lot of noise so we can't talk about

teacher's salaries and the state of the schools and how they're functioning. >> i know that you have -- because i love parnassus too. >> i'm so glad. >> created such a great community there. when you stand up and say this is crazy, it sort of reaffirms for over like minded people, yes, it is crazy tell us about "tom lake. i know that it's written in 2020, so it's during covid you have an approach you take to not really acknowledging covid but maybe the community that it helped build, but also i'm also fascinated by michigan i know it takes place in northern michigan and why you chose that >> okay. so the book takes place in two time lines it takes place on a cherry orchard in travers city, michigan, which is a town i absolutely adore i have a lot of friends, i go to northern michigan all the time the nelson family, they have a farm joe and laura have three daughters in their 20s they've come home during the pandemic because that's what we

all did during the pandemic, but they also are going to have to pick all the cherries. and while the daughters are picking the cherry, they say, all right, mom, you have to finally tell us the story about peter duke who was the man you were in love with when you were 24 at a summer stock theater called "tom lake." so the two narratives go back and forth between these stories. stho she's telling the stories to her daughters. you know the way you tell to your daughter, you really only tell half the story. >> i love hearing r a successful author's process as well it's almost a number one best seller, "tom lake," i remember talking to john grisham. he said i wake up on january 1st, i start writing fiver hours a day. i close the laptop on july the 1st, it comes out in october, i do it again the next year. what is your process like? >> it's nothing like john's. he puts the rest of us to shame.

so i spend a long time thinking up the story, and i started thinking about tom lake while i was writing "the dutch house" and then i wrote "these precious days." i get it all straight in my mind, i don't take notes sometimes it takes me two years, a year i don't ever sell a book until i've finished it so i don't feel any pressure, and i wrote this book entirely on a treadmill desk. >> on standing treadmill desk. >> oh, you're moving the whole time i'm walking. >> i don't like a standing desk. i get sort of stoved up. but i had this treadmill desk. i used to use it for emails: and i thought i'm going to try to write a book because i read something that you're more creative when you're walking look, there i am >> there's a picture of you working on it, right there boy did it work, another best seller the new book is "tom lake," author and independent bookstore owner par na sus, if you're ever in nashville, go visit: jon

meacham is your unofficial ambassador >> we love john. >> congrats on the book. thanks for being he.er >> that does it for us this morning, "ana cabrera" picks up the coverage in one minute my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin and that means everything! ♪nothing is everything♪ now's the time.

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