the justice department that trial ended in a hung jury. and eventually the justice department dropped the charges because the supreme court has made it extremely difficult, narrower definition of what corruption is. that you really have to show you did the official act in exchange for getting that specific gift so it's a very high standard, and the question and the case right now is do the investigators have anything on a wiretap, do they have any unknown cooperate who can point the finger, raise the question, and put the prosecutors across that line to file charges. >> we're certainly going to be watching how this grand jury comes down jonathan dienst, as always, thank you. >> thank you all right. that does it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi, everyone

4:00 in new york a split screen moment today. on the one side an event at the white house showing us what is an american president expressing his support and america's support for ukraine, an emerging democracy handling a serious foreign policy situation, like any leader of the free world has. on the other, a stunning and blockbuster piece of reporting that gives us really disturbing glimpse into what was and what could be again depending on the outcome of the 2024 election brand new reporting today in "the atlantic" by jeffrey goldberg pulls back the curtain on chairman mark milley's tires efforts to counter -- tireless efforts to counter an unstable president, donald trump, intent on swinging a wrecking ball into the pillars of our democracy we'll get to that meeting between president joe biden and president zelenskyy at the white house in a minute. we begin with that brand-new reporting on milley's efforts to be described as protecting the u.s. military and the country from donald trump. "the atlantic" reports that trump's disregard for the rules

of the military were clear from the very start of milley's term as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff for that piece, quote, at his welcome ceremony at joint base meyer-henderson hall across the potomac river from the capitol, milley gained an early and disturbing insight into trump's attitude toward soldiers milley had chosen a severely wounded army captain, luis avila, to sing "god bless america. avila who had completed five combat tours, had lost a leg in an attack in afghanistan, and had suffered two heart attacks, two strokes, and brain damage as a result of his injuries to milley, and to four-star generals across the army, avila and his wife claudia represented the heroism, the sacrifice, and the dignity of wounded soldiers. after avila's performance, trump walked over to congratulate him but then said to milley within earshot of several witnesses, quote, why do you bring people like that here nobody wants to see that, the

wounded. never let avila appear in public again, trump told milley." that was day one on the job for milley the rest of his tenure under donald trump entailed trying to curb the worst instincts and excesses of trump and his allies as "the atlantic" reports, 20 men have served as the chairman of the joint chiefs since the positions was created after world war ii until milley had been forced to confront the possibility that a president would try to foment or provoke a coup in order to illegally remain in office a plain reading of the record shows in the chaotic period before and after the 2020 election, milley did as much as or more than any other american to defend the constitutional order to prevent the military from being deployed against the american people and to forestall the eruption of wars within america's nuclear armed adversaries. his defense of the constitutional order as "the atlantic" puts it, entailed being on high alert for any

moves made by trump and his coup-plotting allies, quote, shortly after defense secretary mark esper was fired, milley told both cash patel and ezra cohen watnick, another trump loyalistsect to the pentagon, that he would make sure they would see the world from behind bars if they did anything illegal to prevent joe biden for taking the oath of office on january 20th both men have denied being warned in this manner. in the plot to overturn the 2020 election erupted into violence on january 6th, milley played a critical role in the response. in his testimony to the january 6th select committee he underscored trump's dereliction of duties. watch. >> yeah. you're the commander in chief. you got an assault going on the capitol of the united states of america. ing there nothing -- no call, nothing, zero. >> zero. and in the tense period after

the insurrection as concerns about the country's stability spiked here at home and abroad, milley, according to this reporting in "the atlantic," quote, gathered the pentagon's top nuclear officers for an emergency meeting. according to meeting participants, milley said, quote, if anything weird or crazy happens, just make sure we all know milley went to each officer in turn and asked if he understood the procedures they all affirmed that they did. milley told other members of the joint chiefs of staff, quote, all we've got to do is see to it that the plane lands on january 20th when the constitutional transfer of power to the new president would be completed." extraordinary new reporting on the unprecedented efforts of the nation's top military officer to protect the stability of our democracy in the face of a threat posed by its own president is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. retired four star general and msnbc military analyst barry mccaffery is here. editor at large for "the bullet

work" and contributor charlie sites is here, former lead investigator for the january 6th committee jim havey is here. general, there has been reporting over the years about trump's disregard for men and women who had served i think he rose to prominence in the republican party after he said about john mccain, i like soldiers who weren't captured. he would go on to disparage george h.w bush and others but to hear that he told the military, the incoming chairman of the joint chiefs to, quote, never have the wounded here again feels like a physical assault against the best of our country, the people who love it so much that they fight to protect it how does -- how do you feel? >> you know, i think it's really heartbreaking, it's a tragic situation to read this kind of

well-resourced, incredible accounting of what was going on, much of which, by the way, i was aware of at the time we had 60,000 killed and wounded protecting the american people following 9/11 wars in iraq, afghanistan, special operations, missions around the world it was a giant loss. the armed forces were totally committed to include the national guard and reserves. and so to have a president with this -- first of all, an ignorant man of the first order, a lawless man who paid -- was unaware of the constitution, fighting to do anything basically he wanted to, and at the time i was reporting on this network so when they put an acting secretary of defense or retired lieutenant colonel and a gang of his in the department of defense i said this guy is setting up a coup against the united states. that's what you'd have to

conclude if it was a third-world country. so we were vulnerable to having a president in office with immense authority who truly lacked any character >> there's something so grotesque about the human character, charlie, of someone who says, quote, why do you bring people like that here? no one wants to see the wounded. never let avila appear in public again, trump told milley i remember when trump wanted a north korean-style military parade i remember some reporting that alluded to the fact that he didn't want to honor wounded veterans as part of that and i remember picking up other deep alarm that came out of some of the reporting around mattis' tenure at the pentagon and kelly's tenure at the white house. but i had never seen it sort of on the record in black and white directed at one american hero

who was bestowed this honor of performing at chairman milley's ceremony and i believe the chairman's wife works with veterans who come back with injuries visible and not visible. i mean, this is part of the ethos of chairman milley and of his family and of the vast majority of the military, to be so anti-military, to be so anti-service, to be so unpatriotic, i find it sick that we have to sit around and talk about him and describe him as the republican frontrunner day after day after day, charlie >> well, you use the right word. it is grotesque. i've been thinking about this all day. there's a lot of important things in this article including the concerns about starting a nuclear war, a coup. but this particular story is haunting because it reflects something unique about donald trump. you know, in the before times, i used to regularly accompany veterans of world war ii and

korea and vietnam from the midwest to see their memorials in washington, d.c., part of the honor flight just to be around these guys was such an honor, and many of them were in very, very tough shape but these were the badges of their sacrifice. and literally i was thinking about this today, and nicole, i don't know anyone -- i don't know that i've ever met anyone who would react the way donald trump would react, who would look at someone who has made this sacrifice fighting for their country and say "yeah, i don't want to look at that person anymore, that's embarrassing don't let them appear in public." that somehow donald trump wants to wrap himself in the flag of support for the military, but he doesn't want to see the cost to the men and women who actually go out there and fight and obey the orders of the commander in chief. and you know, maybe i just haven't gotten around enough to meet more people like this, but

this is so -- he knows he's gotten away with it. you mentioned all these specific priors, what he said about john mccain, that he likes people who were not prisoners of war. i thought that would be disqualifying. when he suggested to aides that he didn't want wounded veterans in parades, you know, you would think that veterans groups would be appalled by this. but one last comment on all of this if the listeners, the viewers, if you know somebody out there in the world who is trump curious or adjacent or who somehow believes that donald trump is a genuine patriot, if there's any way that you could tell them this story, tell them the story of captain avila just have them read it and then say what do you think about that what do you think about a man who thinks this way? i know that nothing seems to matter to so many people in the base, but this is one of those stories that is so grotesque and so revealing that i -- i would like to see people challenged to

reconcile that with supporting putting this man back in the oval office. >> tim, there's extraordinary reporting in here that also i think maybe shines a brighter light on how much anxiety there was inside the military and former military about january 6th which i don't think was really on the media radar until closer to election day let me read more from this piece. general milley visited general corelli in washington state and over breakfast described what he thought was coming, quote, it was unbelievable, this is august 2nd, he laid out in specific detail what his concerns were between august and inauguration day. he identified one of his biggest concerns as january 6th, the day the senate was to meet to certify the election it was almost like a crystal ball chiarelli said milley said it was possible based on the president that they would not accept an election day loss.

you've done the body of reporting that slides, you know, the evidence on paper back to this email that circulated in july certainly by august it's not surprising that it's on their radar. but did we appreciate or -- what do you make of how early it was on the radar of the top military officials that trump may not leave if he loses? >> yeah, i think it was on their mind very early, nicole. the military had its own intelligence-gathering app apparatus, and they were monitoring information that suggested that this excitement was building about january 6th, and there might be violence in the president's own public statements challenging the election he had a lot of conflicting incentives that day, a lot of the piece, "the atlantic " talk about mil's desire to ensure that the military stays out of anything election related. that military cannot be involved in politics, can't be involved

in elections january 6th was a proceeding to certify the election so there was some reluctance to have the military in advance really visible because it might seem as if the military was somehow involved in elections. he was also concerned about the invocation of the insurrection act going back to the summer of 2020, the president repeatedly would bring up why don't we put domestic troops out on the streets of washington, d.c., or other cities where there's domestic unrest. milley, esper, others, pushed back, concerned about the implication of the insurrection act. at the same time, they're seeing this intelligence and this danger and really stoked by the president who may very well have refused to leave office. he and other military leaders in the days leading up to january 6th are balancing a lot of really vexing and difficult, conflicting factors. i think they did a good job of it, and they were correct to put their finger on a lot of those dangers. >> general mccaffery, they had

-- we've overused words like unprecedented, but they're in this unprecedented situation where the top of their chain of command is someone who there's a growing concern is going to ask them to do something unconstitutional and illegal so the top of the chain of command becomes the constitution itself and i want to share with you new reporting, again about something that was widely reported, but we didn't have chairman milley's voice on it or his conversations with trump on the record so on the record for the first time, from "the atlantic." quote, in november 2019, trump decided to intervene in three different cases that have been working their way through the military justice system. in the most infamous case, the navy s.e.a.l. eddie gallagher had been found guilty of posing with the corpse of an islamic state prisoner though gallagher was found not guilty of murder, witnesses testified that he'd stabbed the prisoner in the neck with a hunting knife. in an extraordinary move, trump reversed the navy's decision to demote him in rank

late one night on air force one, milley tried to convince trump that his intrusion was damaging navy morale. trump called gallagher a hero and said he didn't understand why he was being punished. quote, because he slit the throat of a wounded prisoner, milley said, quote, the guy was going to die anyway, trump said. milley answered, quote, mr. president, we have military ethics and laws about what happens in battle. we can't do that kind of thing it's a war crime trump answered that he didn't understand the big deal. he went on, quote, you guys, meaning combat soldiers, are all just killers what's the difference, end quote. again, general mccaffery, i have no words i'm eager to hear yours. >> well, one thing the country needs to understand clearly, that under the constitution and people are actually understand aware, certainly trump is, there's only two people who can give a lawful order to the armed forces they're both civilians

one's the commander in chief, the president in that function, and other is the secretary of defense. the chairman of the jcs has zero command authority, nor do the service chiefs their advisers -- they're advisers to the president, vice president, national security council. so when we end up with a president like trumpwho essentially is a mafia-like figure in his understanding of the use of military power or for that matter domestic law enforcement, who lacks character, who is installed in office and acting secretary of defense and his gang of cohorts who he has reason to believe will follow his orders, then we're in enormous peril. that's what we're seeing again out of this brilliantly resourced article. mr. trump, we have no defense against a president with this lack of character, and we were

in enormous national peril >> charlie, once again is this anext date -- an anecdote if you want someone to read one set of facts, and trump said in stump speeches -- i looked at the coverage, and a lot of what he's saying here he was saying publicly but this belief that everyone in the military are, quote, all killers and what's the difference and chairman milley having to explain what a war crime was to a sitting american president is really grotesque. >> yeah. and this is not a secret for donald trump i mean, he has expressed his appetite for this kind of brutality time and again remember during the campaign he suggested that he would order members of the military to kill the families suspected terrorists when people pushed back he said they'll do what i tell them to do his intervention in these cases is an indication that he does not understand the whole concept of war crimes or of military ethics so once again these stories are

not one offs, they're not gaffes they reflect deeply seated beliefs. you know, and -- i was thinking about something you said last week when you said all the warning lights are blinking red. you know, when you hear this story, you realize that those warning signs were blinking red for the military even before the 2020 election. when you have the joint chiefs of staff having these kinds of concerns, knowing what's going to happen, and in retrospect know many of us were alarmed but were sufficiently alarmed. we did not know how far, how radical trump and his supporters would be and how far they would go this trying to overturn the election there's no excuse for not understanding the nature of the threat now we've seen what he's capable of doing. we know what he's promising to do so there's no ambiguity, there's no -- there's no question mark like what is donald trump capable of doing, what would he

do as commander in chief, how would he use the military, what is his attitude toward the military, what is his attitude toward the constitution and the peaceful transfer of power we know all of this. so mark -- general milley was ahead of the curve in being alarmed in 2020. but the situation is if anything even more dire >> i need to show all of you some more from this piece. chairman milley takes on the woke smears that donald trump and others on the right have logged at him and it's pretty priceless. when we come back, we'll have that and much more from this extraordinary brand-new piece of reporting on general milley. plus, a lot has changed since the last time president zelenskyy was in washington. he is we believe now in the oval office with president joe biden. we'll show you all the latest that comes out on that meeting as soon as it does come out. we believe a pool camera was in there and has some of their opening remarks. later in the broadcast, a former federal prosecutor

investigating trump and the russia probe has spoken out for the first time confirming now publicly just how much politics was at the center of all of it all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a break. meet the team... behind the team. the coach. the manager. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. cut! another health insurance commercial, another aqua-aerobics scene. yup. most health insurance companies see us all the same: smiley seniors golfing, hiking... don't forget antiquing. that's why i chose humana. they see me, not a stereotypical senior.

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i want to understand white rage, and i'm white. and i want to understand it. so what is it that caused thousands of people to assault this building and try to overturn the constitution of the united states of america what caused that i want to find that out. i want to maintain an open mind here, and i do want to analyze it it's important that we

understand that because our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, and guardians come from the american people. so it is important that the leaders now and in the future do understand it. i've read mao zedong, i've read karl marx, i've read lenin, that doesn't make me a communist. what is wrong with understanding, having some situational understanding about the country for which we are here to defend >> everyone is back with us. i remember when that happened, happened before i came on the air. it was an extraordinary moment unsurprisingly "the atlantic" goes deeper. if you let me read this, quote, when i asked milley recently about this episode, his answer was predictably lengthier, more caustic, and substantially more fervent. quote, there's a lot of discourse around whether it's a tough army or woke army, he said, referring to the commentary on right-wing news channels my answer, first of all it's bill [ bleep ], bill barre's favorite word, accusations are coming from people who don't know what they're talking about.

they're doing for political purposes our military wasn't woke 24 months ago and now it's woke you want woke, i'll give you woke here's what your military is doing -- there are 5,000 sorties a day including combat patrols protecting the usa and our interests around the world at least 60 to 100 navy warships are patrolling the seven seas, keeping the world free for ocean transport. we have 250,000 troops overseas in 140 countries defending the rules-based international order. we've got kids training constantly this military is trained, well equipped, well led, and focused on readiness our readiness statuses are at the highest levels they've been in 20 years. so this idea of a woke military is total, utter, made-up bull bleep. tim? >> yeah. i think what he's frustrated about, f about, nicole, is the president's attempt to dive into the day-to-day work of the

uniformed military and the department of defense. that was a theme the president wanted to deploy troops on the streets in the summer of 2020 he wanted to -- protesters to be shot in the leg. there's this notion that i think milley really resists that the president -- the military's there to do the president's own bidding, that they're extensions of him really interesting parallel to the way he looked at the justice department you used bill barre's term there, bill barr had similar frustrations the president thought the justice department was there essential as his lawyers to pursue crazy ideas that he had that didn't have the basis in fact and law with general milley, bill barr, he was faced with people that appreciated the historic independence and the mission, the historic mission of those venerable agencies the president never got that and still i don't think gets that, that frustrated general milley,

frustrate d attorney general barr, and became a theme of the legislation. the lack of respect for traditional institutions, that plays out in lots of different ways leading up to january 6th, and informs his reaction in the days surrounding the election. >> i mean, tim, i think what your investigation bears out is it's not the institutions that protected the country from trump, it's a very, very, almost depressingly small group of individual inside the institutions that protect the country from donald trump. and at doj -- i mean, bill barl leaves, so -- i mean, he's a fantastic witness and he's a good pundit on the strength of the government's case against trump. but he didn't stay until january 6th, so you've got donahue and rosen, right what's to stop trump from putting jeff clark there and i think the pentagon is even scarier, right at the pentagon you had milley -- i mean, mike flynn, pretty pardoned and waiting to be tapped i mean, what did you see that

could make us feel that in the hands of people like this we'd be as safe as we were with the people there on january 6th, 2020 >> yeah. it's an excellent question, and it's the right question because you're 100% correct. these institutions come down to people, people with whom we trust these traditions, with whom we place the independence of the justice department, the independence of the military and thankfully, there were people that in a crisis moment protected those institutions what is to say now that in another trump term there would not be sort of a different standard that puts those people in those positions of defending democracy? people ask me all the time, what was the most surprising thing that you learned over the course of the january 6th investigation, my answer is always, you know, we came close to a different outcome but for the strength and courage of conviction of a handful of people that in a crisis moment

put the rule of law over their own political self-interest. we could have had a different outcome. democracy comes down to people so getting it right, getting the right people in those jobs, in those institutions absolutely paramount to the protection of democracy. >> well, and charlie, the people because it was a republican administration, end up being a handful, again, a pathetically small number in terms of numbers -- i'm not calling the individual pathetic -- but the number of them is shockingly small. they're not all still there. and i wonder what you make of the fact that we're left to wonder whether unchecked by a milley or donahue or rosen or a raffensperger, everything that milley sort of stands on the line and pushes back against becomes the new normal in this country. >> well, i think that donald trump understands that he understands that in trump 2.0 he's going to have to surround

himself with a different breed of loyalists that he feels that this was the deep state that stopped him from executing what he wanted to do. and he won't make that mistake again. so i do think about this in fact, you ran through the very small list of names who made a difference. you know, if you had different officials in georgia or arizona or michigan, if mike pence had made a different decision, if members of the justice department had gone a different way. you know, what would our history have been? will those people be in place in 2025 will they be standing there, and to general mccaffery's point which i don't want to gloss over, under our constitution there are very few limits on what the commander in chief can do what if the commander in chief says i do want the military to do what i want the members of the joint chiefs do not have the power to counterman his orders. under our constitution, we had the assumption that there would be checks and balances, but what

are the checks and balances besides impeachment which we now know is pretty much a dead letter so you know, you have these twin problems, that thin blue line may no longer be there and donald trump may have figured out that under the constitution he can do a lot of things that he can't -- that he can't be stopped, that there are no guardrails. so this is one of the reasons to be alarmed this is not something that we can just simply hope that things will work out because the institutions will stand against him. people need to reread the constitution, but also to look at how fragile those institutions have turned out to be >> right and how much they rely on norms. >> people. >> general mccaffery, i want to ask you a two-part question here i mean, it strikes me that one of the reasons -- i don't know this, but i surmise that one of the reasons this extraordinary body of reporting came out early this morning is because there is

a new chairman of the joint chiefs, milley confirmed -- was confirmed yesterday and this tommy tuberville work-around, and chairman milley may feel more free to speak more openly about his tenure it also strikes me that anyone starting a new role in the military, any apolitical leader may be looking at our own country the same way zelenskyy is now with in the oval office i mean, it's hard to make assumptions or plan much beyond the next presidential election do you think that is on the minds of the military leaders? >> oh, i don't think there's any question of it the international community the same way putin certainly has been incentivized by trump's behavior and the maga republicans in the house to think all you've got to do is continue savaging civilian populations in ukraine until the election, and maybe he wins. look, there's no question in my mind, back to mark milley, i've

known him since he was a colonel. he's an officer of enormous integrity, beautifully educated, well read, and sensitive to the rule of law. he's also a very tough person both in combat, under fire, he's a princeton hockey player. you can't push this guy around so he was uniquely qualified to play this role i think the caution we just heard that the next time around ifdecapitate the institutions, the fbi, cia, homeland security, and put loyalists without a respect for flute there, we could be in trouble. you know, there's always an assumption historically, come on, that couldn't happen here. the 1930s, germany, a civilized nation descending into autocracy. we better worry about it and trump is a leading contender. this is not a political statement. he's entirely unqualified to be

the commander in chief he's a danger to the republic, and that's where we stand. >> no better way to wrap this conversation and let that be the end. the only thing i will add for my viewers is the piece has some extraordinary reporting that i didn't get to, and i hope you all read it. there's extraordinary examples of chairman milley's courage on the battlefield, extraordinary background that i'd not seen reported in depth about his -- the legacy of his mother and father and their service i don't know that there's a more important sort of figure from the stories and the things we've talked about certainly the last four years general, charlie, tim, when i read it, i wanted to talk to all three ofyou about it thank you very much for making this happen for us coming up for us here, the president of ukraine is in the oval office right now after a long day on capitol hill meeting with lawmakers as he tries to make the case to them and to the world of the urgent need to protect his country as russia's illegal war there drags on with no relief in sight

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do all we can to ensure the world stands with you, and had is our overwhelming objective right now. so welcome >> now i look forward, mr. president, to our discussion for the benefit of our nations and the world. when it comes to weapons, we will discuss everything with a special emphasis on air defense. >> president joe biden and ukrainian president zelenskyy are in the white house, in the oval office, still that was from the beginning of their meeting a few minutes ago. this meeting comes amid yet another crucial moment for ukraine amid russia's full-scale, unjustified invasion president zelenskyy's second wartime visit to washington, d.c., has included several high-stakes meetings withbourn u.s. lawmakers on capitol hill today where he answered their questions and pleaded with them for their continued support. against a very different political climate this time around, with a growing number of republicans vowing publicly now to opposition additional

military and humanitarian aid for ukraine. and house speaker kevin mccarthy confirming today that he rejected president zelenskyy's request to again address a joint session of congress because mccarthy says, quote, we just didn't have the time, end quote. i governor novakov, former adviser to president zelenskyy, form u.s. ambassador to russia, now an msnbc initial affairs analyst. michael mcfall is here i'm so embarrassed for us that kevin mccarthy said that that your president, igor and i guess -- i don't know what to say how does that -- how does that land with the ukrainian people that the most powerful republican in the house of representatives tells your president, quote, we don't have ti time >> well, nicole, it doesn't -- it doesn't go down well with us. obviously people are disappointed at the same time, we have a good memory, and if we take a closer

look at our relationship it's all -- i'm not claiming it's always been perfect, but it's definitely above average our people are very much alike, and we share common values but at the same time the only time i can remember our relationship being below average, i would probably even say toxic, was around 2018, 2019 when the populist demands destroyed the bipartisan support, basically under this umbrella of a seemingly toxic relationship, a very bad deal was being forced on us by former president trump. so i think what's happening now is that pre-election are you summerens of populist politics -- resurgence of populist politics domestically. it's obviously disappointing, but it's not something we haven't seen before. >> igor, let me show you what your president said after a bipartisan meeting with u.s. senators they weren't all there, but we believe there were about 70 or

80 there these are his comments after that we don't have. it here's what he said -- president zelenskyy, quote, we spoke about everything, about support, about the situation on the battlefield, about our plans. i can't share with the media all the details, but i think we have very strong, very strong dialogue with the senators my colleague, ali vitali, asked the president, what do you say to vladimir putin, what's your message to vladimir putin? and president zelenskyy said, i'm not speaking with him. that is probably as good of a summary of the tone and tenor of what senators got today. but it sound like at least as far as this meeting went he felt like it was productive igor >> it was productive and first let me comment on the not speaking with putin part >> please. >> to be honest, i mean, it may sound a bit childish that i'm not speaking with him or anything like that, but it's

nothing like that. you know, there's no point in engaging president putin in dialogue for two reasons one, i think mr. prigozhin recently deceased mr. prigozhin would explain that better than i can. and the second reason is like any deal with the devil is short-lived. and if there's no lasting deal, there's no peace to be had, no trust to be gained, and after all the atrocities there's no point in engaging a war criminal in dialogue. so that's my take on that. >> let me ask you one more question, and then i'd like to bring ambassador mcfall into the situation. we understand there were brutal strikes in kyiv. one, are you safe? and two, it seems like putin -- his feathers were ruffled by all of the attention president zelenskyy is getting in new york and washington >> they definitely were. at the same time, i think we're right on schedule. you know, autumn is taking shape. we'reinto the last -- the fina

ten days of warm weather and you know, the strikes -- missile strikes against critical infrastructure were expected, and we're preparing for them and yes, to answer your question, at roughly 5:00 or 6:00 a.m. i woke up to explosions and you know, something i haven't heard for a while now. but you know, it's nothing new in life. we just take every day as it comes. >> ambassador mcfall, because you sat in these meetings, i want to ask you what's going on now that the press has been kicked out i have to sneak in a break, but i wanted to give you a 3.5 minutes to prepare forha tt question when we come back don't go anywhere.

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♪ pop music ♪ >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ there was a single sentence that summed it up, and i'm quoting him verbatim mr. zelenskyy said if we don't get the aid, we will lose the war. that's a quote from him. >> we're back with igor and ambassador mcfall. ambassador mcfall, this is a very different trip from president zelenskyy. that said, there is a very -- you can feel the weightiness of -- i'm in new york, and having him in new york this week for unga, he has articulated a very powerful case, and it took i guess until thursday's news cycle for him to reduce it down to that one sentence that is his message here >> it is and he's the perfect messenger to bring it to the american people i think it was very smart of him

to spend extra time here in washington, in the united states i saw president zelenskyy a couple weeks ago in kyiv, and he fully understands the domestic politics of this assistance, both the economic assistance and military assistance. and he wants to make the argument if we don't get this aid, we lose the war and remember, the war will go on longer, and more people will die if they don't get the military assistance from us sometimes there's a kind of weird debate we have here in the united states that, oh, well, cuts off the aid, and then -- and then the war will end. no ukrainians will still fight, they'll just fight longer, and ill prepared -- less prepared to fight that war that's why more aid,war. that's why more aid, more military assistance, more sanctions is the fastest way to end the war. >> it's interesting. certain ly, anyone that's watche

this diement naic has it on their mind in 2018 or 201, there's no objection in congress. it's congressional approved military aid it really zips through the house and senate with no debate even the first impeachment, you stand there and there's a hot war raging an even hotter one put now the holdup is the same political strain it's just in the congress. i wonder what you make of how ukraine has to navigate really unprecedented domestic politics. >> you just said it. they understand it they understand this to be a fight not just for ukrainian security, but for european security and global security and i think they are exactly right about that

what drives me nuts is when they say we need to focus on china. this is not our war. those people do not understand that if ukraine what kind of signal does that send to the people that want to keep the peace in asia. i was in taiwan, and i can tell you that leadership and those people, they understand that logic completely tragically, we don't i hope that zelenskyy helped to make that case because i believe sincerely, this feels a lot like the isolationist times that we had in our country right before world war ii we know what mistakes we made then we can't make those mistakes again this time around >> it all ties into everything the appetite for erasing the teaching of history, it's all connected. ambassador, i want to ask you

about what president zelenskyy said in the short clip we played from the oval office it's where the meeting vs getting underway he said he's focused on air support. what does that mean? will he be successful? >> i think he will be had successful i think he wants air support because they are getting ready for the winter there's some cities like kyiv that are well protected relatively speaking. there are other large cities in ukraine that are not so they see that as first and foremost on their list i also think they will have a discussion about long range missile systems. that debate has been going on for a long time. my sense is that they believe, the ukrainian government believes if they had those, they could push back the supply lines that the russians have and that would be a very important equal tat ive change in the counteroffensive whether they achieve that objective or not in this meeting, i don't know. >> you get the last word

it's our favorite friends choice you can tell us a story. you can weigh in on anything we have been talking about. up to you. >> there's a reason i'm wearing this t-shirt two days? a row. it's a friend of mine that opened up an anonymous telegram channel and informs people about incoming missiles and drones and i think that single person has done more for the collective mental health of ukrainians than all of the international efforts combined so this is my tribute to him and this is just another example of how ukraine perseveres, regardless of the circumstances. we can find a way. we adapt and all we need is just some help if we don't get it, we'll fight with our bare hands. >> i was going to come back to ewe on this. this is the point you just made. with us or without us, the reason the ukrainians are so successful in their war against russia is because it's not about the money. it's not about the size of the

course it's whether they are still prevailing and i wonder what you make of his story and the innovation and the spirit we don't spend enough time talking about that >> everybody knows that. i just got back from kyiv. everybody uses that app. that's exactly right but there are new apps and new technologies and new drones and new innovative things happening in ukraine every single day. in the long run, we will benefit, we will benefit from the security that ukraine will provide to europe, to our nato al lice, as long as we can help them win this war. this is not charity this is no our own national security interest to have a strong, robust 21st century military, and a thriving economy and a functioning democracy in ukraine. those are all wins for our security and our benefit every time i talk to ukraineens i'm inspired by them i'm glad we're ending on this inspiring note

thank you for letting him say those things >> he can say anything he wants on this show next up, your own show thank you both so much for having this conversation with us i really appreciate both of you. there are new revelations about how far politics seeped into the justice department under donald trump and bill barr there's more we'll bring it to you, when we're back after a quick break ♪ ♪ ♪ wherever you go. wherever you stay. all you need is one key. earn and use rewards across expedia, hotels.com, and vrbo. ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles

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my own view is that the evidence shows that we're not dealing with just his mistakes

or sloppiness. there's something for mar troubling, and we're going to get to the bottom of it. >> i think the president has every right to be frustrated because i think what happened to him is one of the greatest travesties in american history without basis they started this investigation of his campaign. and even more concerning actually is what happened after the campaign a whole pattern of events while he was president so to sabotage the presidency >> hi again, they were remarkable comments at the time. unpress dependented, not normal, public comments from the head of the department of justice about an ongoing investigation involving then president trump his hand picked attorney general speaking openly and brazenly about the examine nation he ordered and appointed u.s. attorney john durham to lead into the origins of the trump

russia probe making misleading comments since we know that durham found to quote bill barr, his comments were bull he found no evidence of a deep state plot against trump it was all a lie public comments like those had contisequences. it did damage to the department. they drove durham's top aid, who had worked with him and for him for decades. federal prosecutor nora denhi to resign she has now spoken about it for the first time confirming it was that, words like that from bill barr, the plolitically motivated handling of the investigation that drove her to leave. watch. >> in the late summer of 2020, months before the 2020 presidential election, he wanted a report written about our ongoing investigation. publicly, he would not rule out releasing that report before the presidential election. i had never been asked to write

a report about an investigation that was not yet complete. i then saw a version of a draft report, the conclusions of which i strongly disagreed with. writing a report, and particularly the draft i saw, violated long standing principles of the department of justice. further more, the department of justice has a long standing policy of not taking any public actions in the time leading up to an election that might influence that election. i simply couldn't be part of it, so i resigned. it was the most difficult personal and professional decision i have had to make. >> she made those kmnts yesterday because she's a nominee for the connecticut state supreme court. she made those comments, she

shared that for the first time at her confirmation hearing. she stressed how she had worked at doj under several administrations and presidents of both political parties, and how politics had never played a role in her work before. a dedicated civil servant. the resignation signalled how far trump and his allies had succeeded in bending the levers of the federal government to benefit the ex-president let us remind you that that investigation yielded no a four-year costing taxpayers $ $6.4 million when evidence of a potential crime was turned over to durham and his team, linked to the ex-president, we don't have anything to do with that this is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends.

former top official at the department of justice andrew weissman is with us. plus frank figliuzzi is here he worked for john durham. and former counterintelligence agent peter strc is here my question for you as an investigator, how do we find out where this draft report is of the durham investigation that when she refused to write, i have been asked to write a report, i refused to do it but she testified yesterday, there's a draft report was written. what does it say and should we be able to see it? >> i think absolutely we should. this is what weaponization of the department of justice looks like not the clown car that jim jordan is driving. it is things like this fist, i want to thank her for her braver

ri in this testimony, but two, for doing the right thing and having the moral integrity to resign back in 2020. because had she not done that, there's a real chance that whatever the draft report was would have been published and quite likely could have impacted the 2020 election. but as to seeing it, she joins now, if you think back, the four prosecutor who is quit the roger stone prosecution, one prosecutor who quit the mike flynn prosecution. many of whom i worked with so you have to ask this pattern of behavior of at least now six prosecutors, who quit rather than put up with bill barr's absolute corruption of the department of justice, doj apparently is still doing some sort of work looking into this, but my question is where it that i don't know and i look forward to reading this draft. >> andrew, how do we get our -- this is what she testified to yesterday. i was asked to write a draft report i had never been asked to write a report for an ongoing investigation. she looked at it when she

refused. does the public and the people that were subjected to something that was purely political in nature, does the public have a right to see that? >> one of those people who was victimized by this is on our panel right now, which is pete, who was unfairly maligned and was under the suspicion and completely cleared by the i.g. report even by -- i can't even call it a report that durham -- i'm not sure i can call it an investigation. but the way you get this is the freedom of information act, which is a statute that allows you to get government documents. it maybe redacted as to names that might be in there of people should be cast on them it might be one of the reasons

that nora resigned because that would be improper. it would also be improper if it repeated the quotes from bill barr that you just played. just so everyone understands, the clip that you just play ed o bill barr has him lying. i usually don't like yo use the "l" word so clearly and to say it's wrong, but here just to be clear, the inspector general and even john durham at theend of the day said that there was a factual basis to open the investigation. and so your quote of bill barr is saying there was no basis to open it. and that after everyone look ed at it said that is wrong and he was making these statements to influence the election, to malign people at the fbi and the department of justice, who were doing their duty

it actually would have been a dereliction of duty if they had not opened an investigation. and that is what much of what the inspector general found as well >> the only i.g. not to be fired by donald trump, so not viewed as a deep state actor. all the i.g.s get canned he's what he found in 2019 we didnot find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced the decisions to open the four individual resignation he finds in 2019 so bill barr, not only does he lie, seems to knowingly lie. and i wonder if you can just speak to the pressure cooker that -- i don't think nora is three prosecutors ended up quitting the durham probe. can you just describe that pressure, the plates pushing against each other from durham and barr to people like nora

>> sure. i do think that pete has the right analogy, that this is just a remarkable event to have people on a project resign whether it was from the department of justice in the stone case, the flynn case, but here the idea that nora had been in the department for years was resigning over this, i sort of put her in the category of people like richard donnahue or jeffrey rosen, people who at the end of the day did the right thing. i think when she signed up for this, i mean, this was clearly going to be a baseless investigation of the investigators. i don't think there was really a good faith argument for doing this their investigation actually proved that. so i do think at the end of the

day when push came to shove, she, like jeffrey rosen, the acting attorney general and richard donnahue, the acting deputy attorney general, they, like her, there was a line they were not willing to cross. it's good for her she did that i'm not sure i'd say it's great all those people participated in a regime where the basic goal of that regime was to undermine the rule of law. she was present for bill barr making all of those statements and had not resigned so i'm not -- i give her credit for leaving. that is a tough decision i'm not sure i give her a loot of credit for staying and participating in that. i just don't think -- i think when you look at what john durham did, 24 jurors in 2 trials found unanimously that john durham had not proved his case

not a single one of the jurors agreed with him. 24 jurors said that the defendants in the case should be acquitted. if any one of them had disagreed, there would have been a hung jury. instead, there were acquittals with respect to all counts of all of the defendants. that's not a great record. i think it's a testament to the fact that what john durham was up to was really baseless and people like pete struck took the brunt of that there was no reason for them to in a system where it was going to be apolitical >> i want to underscore that by showing you that durham, when he goes to the hill, he basically has nothing to say for himself we don't have the sound yet, but he goes up to capitol hill in the beginning of this summer, and eric swalwell says did

anything prove it was false that trump tower meeting? and durham goes, quote, i don't have any evidence that did not happen so he says, anything in your report prove false that in to 16 presidential campaign donald trump tried and concealed from the public a real estate deal he was seeking in moscow? durham, quote, i don't know anything about that. there's nothing in my report about that it is not something we investigated did you prove, did donald trump not say at a press conference if you're listening, you should get hulls ri's e-mails did you prove he didn't say that durham, you know, we didn't. we didn't investigate that swalwell, did you prove false in the campaign manager gave polling data to a spy for russian intelligence durham, we didn't investigate that swalwell, are you signing off on

the way donald trump acted with russia in 2016 durham, my report doesn't address that swalwell, and you agree that russia interfered in the 2016 election durham, i agree that there is substantial evidence to show that, end quote. so i won't swear twice, but everything that bill barr and all of them said is always the projected lie. it is always the opt sut of the truth. durham, who was bill barr and donald trump's magic bullet against reality, again, i'm not a prosecutor, but i know that losing that many trials and having that many jurors i think everything yo presented is not credible is not good but on the substance of what all of this was about, he did extraordinary damage because a lot of people that watch fox news and even more whacky channels think there was no there there. and eeb durham said there was. where are we as we head into another cycle?

>> if i had to nominate the person during this whole debacle that perhaps most sacrificed his soul for the cause, the donald trump maga cause, i would have to put john durham at or near the top of the list. as you said, i had the opportunity as a very young law student to work directly for him on a major mob prosecution with an organized crime strike force he gave me the opportunity to organize in federal court, very rare at that time for a law student to be permitted to do. his reputation was and has been up until now impeccable. a man of ethics and integrity, a man of deep faith, but what we see in john durham is perhaps the epitome of being willing to absolutely give up your reputation for some notion that

you're serving a greater cause that only you seem to be able to do you're the one that is ordained and selected to absolutely go against the evil that are ruining society. i'm not make ing this up. you can find a speech that john durham did speaking of how many years ago, speaking of how he relates his faith to his mission on earth and you'll become very disturbed by the extent to which he feels selected to do this. so he's ruined his reputation. the clip you played from barr contained at least three lies. during durham's testimony, he also famed ignorance of the findings of bob mueller's special counsel inquiry, the gop-controlled senate intelligence committee findings on russia, he just pretended he didn't know. so he's not stupid so you're left with the notion that he's actually trying to

pretend to be ignorant because it's part of the mission, part of the cause we're going to continue to see this in the form of mark meadows and all these people, but the one that really had the reputation that really has bottomed out isn't rudy giuliani or bill barr, who had issues before this mess it's john durham >> what's interesting is that people like that are usually able to be snapped out of it by a nora, who says, john, what are you doing? what's extraordinary about the reporting is she's not asking him to not be part of the trump era justice department she's not asking him to quit in solidarity with her. she's not asking hum to make a statement. she urged mr. durham to ask the attorney general to adhere to justice department policy. that's it. she wanted him to return to the department's policy of not discussing an ongoing investigation publicly

but he proved unwilling to challenge him. he used grand jury powers to go after the e-mails. she opposed the tactic and said durham had taken the step without telling her. they have a conflict over an ongoing investigation. she discover ed other members o the team had written this draft report that durham had not told her about. she told durham no report should be issued before the investigation was complete and especially not just before an election and denounced the draft for taking disputed information at face value. she sent a memo and resigned that sounds like extraordinary prosecutorial dismusculoskeletal what is the vehicle for -- do you believe the idea is looking at that? >> iz hope merrick garland is looking at this.

we're getting into a dell indicate area where you allow someone to continue unfettered to go hands off and let them do their thing. but subsequent to their case, after it's done and closed and you have allegations like this, i think you're compelled to look at it. it impacts whether john durham has a future with the u.s. government or needs to sulk off and find some other job. but you hand pick and select your deputies because of thaeir talent and integrity you want them around you in this tough mission you have been gimpb. that's called a clue that maybe you're doing something wrong it didn't seemingly get his attention. and when asked about it. he said something to the effect of, well, people have differences of president bush. staff comes and goes he didn't get it or he doesn't

want to act nolk it. >> quick last word since this is the stour you're helping us cover. >> i think we need a couple things to know what happened because it sets the record straight in terms of history everything that was said, it adds a level of understanding of what the so-called report did or didn't say whether or not it's credible put then the other thing it does is it's important to know because it gives us some idea in the future what we should be doing or what we nimight do to prevent future abuses like this. if trump is reelected and we get rudy giuliani or jeffrey clark as the attorney general and they try to go through things like this calling up u.s. attorneys to have hunts to target trump's enemies, we need to figure out what happened so that in the future, we can avoid the same sort of behavior and it bothers me a little bit because a.g. garland gave some

credit to the findings he said he read durham's report i would like it if he'd read the draft report we could see maybe within doj they can get an idea of what happened >> wouldn't that be nice thank you all for this conversation when we come back, after years of overseeing a company that spread the worst kinds of lies that our country and after a multitude of expensive lawsuits about those lies, the head of fox news and news corp. is stepping down what it means for the media and democracy going forward. that conversation is next. plus the shrinking candidacy of ron desantis. the campaign appears to be in free fall. a stunning turn of events as the man seemed to be a savior for a post trump gop and the editorial board of the wall street board

the critical question for the twice-impeached and now no-show disgraced ex-president, why is he so afraid to debate more after a quick break don't go anywhe.er rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. but i'm protected with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can be serious for those over 60, including those with asthma, diabetes, copd, and certain other conditions. but i'm protected. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain.

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today right wing mega mogul rupert murdoch announced he will step aside as chairman of fox. he will become chairman emeritus it's a remarkable end to the seven decades of his career and

it comes in the same yiear his network fox news settled a landmark defamation lawsuit with dominion voting systems for more than $780 million. his lies told on that network about the 2020 election. fox news faces a similar lawsuit from election systems company, which will likely go to trial in 2025, as well as a lawsuit from new york city's pension funds, which claim that fox neglected its shareholders when it opened its up to defamation lawsuits. not to mention additional lawsuits from former fox employee abbi grossberg and two fox corporation shareholders in a pargt letter, the 92-year-old billionaire wrote this quote, elites have opened contempt for those who are not members of their rarefied class. most of the media is in cahoots with those elites, peddling political narratives rather than pursuing the truth

joining our conversation is david and with me at the table is state attorney for florida dave aaronberg, and donny deutsche what do you make of this >> he's 92 we're living through a time where we're watching two very public figures getting on in age, and we're very aware of the age. so clearly, it was his time wil things change? no, his son's idea of a presidential candidate was tucker carlson he wanted tucker to stay it's been reported that as part of dominion deal, it was a gentleman's agreement tucker would go that was rupert's doing. but you can probably say that he is the most influential figure in mass communications of the last century if you really kind of break it down, you look at where the world is today, you look fox and the rise of the right-populism, it's rupert murdoch. he's a conservative.

but a nefarious character who will leave a tremendous mark on who we are >> i don't buy the age thing he's the kind of guy that will die with their feet in the booth. if we -- >> why would he go he's not afraid of anything. >> but he's been debased and revealed and outed as not actually controlling his prime time anchors what he wanted didn't happen he wanted tucker carlson to do a joint statement together they do none of what he wants as chronicled in those depositions. i think he looks like he's too weak to lead the network >> interesting maybe i'm nnaive my mom is 94 i'm around people in their 90s and even the best of them, it's not so good. >> david, your take? >> we have a wealth of davids at

the table today. >> it's a good thing >> i would give the idea he's 92 and has continued to talk about how he wanted to succeed him and it's a moment of when he's inka pass tauted this is clearly an intentional passing of the baton rupert murdoch indicated in his note today he wasn't exactly retreating from the field of contest of ideas or news he might well surprise some of his employees late afternoon on fridays in his global travels and basically saying don't get lazy on me because i'm not at the top of the pyramid he still controls the family trust, which ultimately still controls all of those voting shares that control the fates of the two publicly traded companies. so right now, i don't think he's given up as much as it seems he's given up.

he's been doing a quiet fade in terms of day-to-day stuff. i do think that litany of legal challenges or crises ahead for fox, not just the one that has just passed, tells you also that it's not helpful for murdoch to be in the spotlight. he testified under oath earlier this year and it was disastrous, as he realized at the end of his testimony. one of the key pressure points for the settlement of the dominion lawsuit just hours before the jury was going to start to hear the trial phase, he was going to be the first or second witness to testify in that case. and they wanted anything to stall that and so i think he's damaged. it's true in terms of the ways in which he forced new competition into news and sports broadcasting and television and the like, but also a very kroezive figure in his legacy in terms of really unspooling the

idea there need ed to be factually based information presented on anything that held its out to the public. >> david, let me ask you a follow-up. what should we be watching for in the lachlan era >> every now and then fox throws somebody over the side, as they did with tucker carlson. that grossberg lawsuit was threatening to be damaging to fox all over again, damaging depositions and testimony. they settled that case but that was part of that legal context as well. but in addition, i think that you're going to see lachlan, who is more conservative than his father, try to figure out if anybody other than trump can win the nomination in 2024 if not, throw the power of the talent on fox news behind trump

as a way of giving viewers the raw meat they have demanded from it that network. one of the things that's fascinating about the recent murdochs, they have lost control of the audience. that trump has been saying that they have been trying to keep time and i think that they are very much mindful of not only ventures like newsmax on television, but the daily wire and questions of whether the exile of tucker carlson and the exile of meghan kelly could band together to form a video threat to drain away their audiences. fox needs to keep that them appeased to maintain this business model, even as critics argues there needs to be a different path for fox in the future >> i think what david is talking about about losing the audience was one of the biggest

revelations of the material that was released in the discovery process. that two things. that from the outside, you wondered and always more mystique from the outside. there was with trump and most of what he thought was just et tweeted out. there's a box where you think there's these mysterious means it's not misysterious at all it was the trump stock s those were the considerations. what's interesting to me is that there doesn't to be in the same way politics don't have any circuit breakers, there don't seem to be any at fox either >> that's all you need to know here's a billionaire whose father was knighted and he's condemning the elites. >> what's he talking about >> this is it. his superpower is to make people believe that somehow he's not part of the elites he likes to bash trump has been able to do it as well he's turned republican party leaders and people on tv into these pop lists.

they are the ones flying the private jets has he had flown middle seat i have, and it's not so great. >> have you had a conversation with a billionaire about taking your shoes off they are looking at you like, what are you talking about do you think he knows why we take our shoes off and your belt and your glasses and your hair clip what's he saying >> they don't talk about these things at the country club one thing is that he's only 92 so he could be an up and comer >> he could have many more acts. thank you so much for spending time with us on this story today. when we come back, you can't help but look at ron desantis these days and see a candidate who is out of dpas the florida governor's incredible shrinking candidacy, after a quick break. (ella) fashion moves fast. setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... ...in real time.

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take it from me, perhaps the only thing worse than the bunch punching bag phase is the post punching bag phase when your excompetition doesn't feel any need to even go after you or attack you. when you're just there remember ron desantis, the war on woke guy? the florida darling, the far right alternative to donald trump? he's still running for president. the past few months his share of gop support has taken a long walk off a short pier.

that's more pronounced in new hampshire. second place in june, third in august and now he's in fifth the campaign for ron desantis is on life support. he has one shot at resuscitation and that's the debate next week. so don't stick a fork in him just yet >> stick a fork in him >> do you know when i think it ended? let me take this to donnie first. when he had a debate about how to say his name. grower a grown man you should know how to say your name by now. >> this is a simple example of taking politics aside, breaking politics in a simple form. a candidate has to be likable in

some form. donald trump is evil, but he's entertaining you don't want to sit next to ron desantis you don't want to have a a cup of coffee with him he's an ornery, unlikable character. we see the numbers, if he doesn't talk about woke anymore. beyond the fact he was trying to out trump trump, but he's not trump. he didn't give an alternative to trump. he's so unlikable. he's awkward he's socially inept. and the election comes down to who would you rather have a beer with this is not a guy you want to have a beer with >> i think i will stand up for quirky individuals they make the world go around. but this was a mean authoritarian guy who didn't have any interactions with humans that projected warmth or

interest in the other humans he mocked a child'sing an icy for being too sugary he had weird behavior on the plane. this is a guy who didn't seem to win over anybody >> that's absolutely right and donnie is right in his p points everything was just cumbersome with ron desantis. his main campaign narrative and strategy about antiwokeness became a laughable meme. that's never a good sign if you're running for president and while there was certain things that you could be really concerned about, meaning that he really understood how to use the bureaucracy to affect certain policy goals, which we have talked about in terms of education, in terms of the college board and so on and so on i go back to the sort of campaign craft and that is that his lack waj was all about him.

it wasn't about this broader audience as to use that word, he talks about reclamation. he talks about retribution he's more inclusive of a larger group. it's what makes him so scary and terrifying, but it's what ron desantis did not do. he really made it about himself and his personality and drew a lot of attention to his audiocwkwardness and again, i dpo back to one of my favorite quotes the light that burns twice as bright burns half as long. he seemed to sort of burn out quickly. if you're a voter, if you can go with the original, why go with the copy >> that's exactly right. you know better than anybody what is the ron desantis story >> the results were inevitable for all the reasons just said. but the calendar said ron desantis' demise he started in iowa they value retail campaigning.

he's worst at looking you in the eye and shaking your hand. >> he doesn't seem to be able to do that. he seems so uncomfortable. >> he's incapable of doing those things what about the next state? new hampshire. live free or die a six-week abortion ban? book bans? attacks on wokeness, which makes sense to people. it's no surprise this was going to happen. desantis was headed towards zero it's just a question of when it happened sooner than later. >> you know when i think really hurt him with republicans was the losing the fight with d disney it broughtment republicans in it florida out to attack him and say this was a stupid fight. >> i don't know anybody who agreed with that even republicans, what is he doing? this is the opposite of the republican party of live free and all these things this is attacking a corporation because they rebuked you on a

bill it was a no winner for him it's a reason why he's approaching the end of his campaign >> it wasn't just tech corporations he was attacking america this is disney you're not going after exxon so the human being rous and the actual stupidity of that is stunning >> i wish you could say it said something about republicans appetites for cruel tty, but yo can't. he just didn't package it well when with come back, the disgraced ex-president is skipping the second and third republican debate leading the conservative editorial page of the "wall street journal" to ask, what is he so afraid of that conversation is next.

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"wall street journal" asking a question we have asked around here about ts disgraced ex-president why is trump frad to confront the other republicans without the aid of a teleprompter. questioning his failure to show up for the second debate, "the wall street journal" adds, trump's advisers maybe telling him he shouldn't appear lust he say something that hurts his legal defense, but that's a sign of weakness and not strength what is the former president afraid of? it comes amid the news that trump is skipping the third debate as well everyone is back with us basil, i peek the a the transcripts of some of the interviews he does he always says something you can hear jack smith's team typing into the indictment.

>> that's absolutely right he has no filter we have always known this about donald trump but it's much more important to have one at this moment in time given both the criminal cases that he has in front of him, but also as we have said the fact that he's running for president. going back to this campaign, would you, if you were a strategist advising a president or a former president, who is at 60 points when most of your other rivals are in single digits, to actually engage in a debate you might not do that. but the reality is that the country needs to hear from hum and i'm in d.c. because of the congressional black caucus conference a congressman from had this great thing to say if you were ever concerned or wondered what you'd do in the civil rights movement, now is the time to act.

and that's why i think one of the things that donald trump is afraid of is being called to answer for his actions and all of what he has wrought in our country. that's true for whenever he gets on a debate stage, but it's also true with respect to the voters on election day. all of that, i think he's both afraid of, concerned about, i imagine his advisers are warning against. but it also shows you both the fear >> i sort of love he's not going before the normal things he says i'm so busy running for president i can't go to the trial. >> that's a good point now he's peppering his words with words his lawyers gay gave him. i believe this or think this >> he's been indicted four times. it's too late. >> better late than never.

we have seen the strategy before it has work ed for others. katie hobbs refused to daet debate in arizona. now she's governor in trump's case, his opponents refuse to attack him direct ly, except for chris christie and asa hutchinson unless you go after him, you're not going to overtake him. >> someone asked, because you're not running against him. you're not trying. >> to be honest, it's not smart for him to do it when we saw him in the interview talking about running against obama a couple times and world war ii, we talk a lot about biden not necessarily being on his a-game trump is clearly not is not al. look, he's at 50, 60 points. if you advise him, why would you get on stage, let 10, 8 guys particularly chris christie prosecute -- go after you.

the debates are meaningless without him. is it better for the country if he does it yes, is it better for trump if he doesn't yes. unfortunately trump is -- >> i would never advise an autocrat i only view him speaking to his crowded as a danger to our homeland security. i would say on the idea of -- one person is running for the express purpose of staying out of prison. his message is you are my retribution. all he wants for his supporters is they vote for him so he can pardon himself he has nothing to same i would never advise an autocrat but the reason he stays off the debate stage is one, he can't take what christie is dishing out. >> christie himself is the one -- i'm so upset. i'll a christie fan. i know people say he came too late but as far as i'm concerned he's there now. watching christie go after him would be really funny.

christie would get urn his skin. >> christie also knows where the bodies are buried. christie knows everything michael cohen knows. >> it's personal he's a thug. trump is a bully, and you put another bully against him, it's fun to watch unfortunately we're not going to see that show. >> because trump is afraid of chr christie thank you for being here again see you next time. another break for us we'll be right back. 's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully.

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finally for us earlier in the week, we had a chance the speak top p.a. governor josh shapiro about his effort to shore up democracy and increase voter participation in pennsylvania by automatic voter registration now he has a helping hand from fellow pennsylvanian taylor swift, who simply by posting alink on national registration day helped to get 35,000 voters. to put that into the context of a touring pop star, she registered enough vetter tos put cleveland field over capacity. another break for us we'll be right back. ean this one with titanium? switch to verizon, you can trade in any iphone, and get the new iphone 15 pro on them. (vo) trade in any iphone in any condition

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thank you so much for letting substance abuse your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle thank you very much. welcome to "the beat," everyone. i am ari melber. our top story right now is about politics, because there is a massive new shake-up which affects how candidates, nominees, and presidents are