what we share next, you may have heard of it. we have uploaded most of it, and you can go to msnbc dot com slash already, and we can show you our youtube page here on screen. that is msnbc.com slash ari. it takes you to our youtube playlist. you could find peter navarro interview there. other segments we did tonight, and across the week. so, i always encourage you to check out that website link. you can also find me on social media, ari melber.com. or any social side, go to ari melber.com to connect with me. i've got some questions with you guys about the news, life, what's ahead, and i try to answer them there. so, just wanted to mention that, as we all take in this living history together. that doesn't for us. keep it right here on msnbc. re on msnbc. when it >> welcome to our msnbc's

special prosecuting donald trump on this pivotal and -- and the looming trials of the former president, current candidate, and defendant, donald trump. i'm ari müller and tonight our aim is to go beyond even the many important day the headlines and takes a wider look at the stakes in criminal justice priorities for these unprecedented cases. to do that, i am joined by doj veteran former mueller prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, to see him right there back at work, andrew weissmann. burning off his expertise and legal analysis in his msnbc podcast with mary mccord who's also with us tonight. that is right here on your screen, prosecuting donald trump. before we get in any further, i want to actually give a question to you that i think is on peoples minds in all fairness, which is can defendant trump get a fair trial with these primaries approach? >> great question. i would broaden the question out. i would say can the government and the defendant get a fair trial? i would say the answer to that

is yes, that's put a lot of pressure on the judge in the d.c., case the florida, case the manhattan case, what's remarkable is that we're talking about three separate criminal cases and potentially forth case. but both sides are entitled to a fair trial. you have the defendant now talking a lot about the truth and his use of it. but also the judge needs to be able to do is make sure that a jury is going to turn all of that noise off and is going to try to make sure that the jury knows what's going on in the courtroom and makes a decision based on that. i like the way you put that -- >> we can get almost overly positive for nostalgic about this is someone who works but you're reminding everyone, yes, everyone deserves a fair trial. and i think we can all agree, in a non partisan basis, tuning out the noise and whatever is out there and focusing on acts and evidence, by the, way that leads to an acquittal, if that

leads to mistrial, it's the system. but look at the evidence. >> the hard part in a case like this where it's so prominent and i've had to deal with this is the juror who is less than candid who tries to -- most people are sitting and wondering -- and a high profile matter, that's the biggest concern that the government is going to have and the judge is going to have making sure that they've tweeted out these people. because we want to completely neutral dispassionate jury. a good example of that is in the manafort case. the one juror who have to child spoke said she was a maga republican, she had a red maga hat. and i love this. she said i left my hat in the car. that was just a great symbolic way of saying i have an oath of office and i did my job. she voted to convict. she had a very cute line afterwards.

she said let me give some advice to president trump who is it present at the time. paul manafort should not be pardoned. and she acted out of principle. that is what you are looking for, somebody who is if the government is not prove its case is going to say, you know what? not guilty. they're not prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt and they have the gonna do with the judge instructs. >> that's so well put and fascinating. you talked about someone who shared the former president's 2016 campaign. not. nobody ballots turned to these trials investigations from three prosecutors and four probes, at least in your day, hush money scheme that we've been following. special counsel smith both

overseeing the classified documents probe and the probe into the coup, and there is what everyone has been talking about lee recently, georgia's d. a. reconvening a grand jury in that long running into election interference probe. this is on president. i examined in fort jurisdictions that occurred before, during and after his presidency. the trials for at least some of these indictments will likely occur as trump is trying to win the presidency again during the campaign as we're just discussing. and by election day, there may be at least one jury that has reached its verdict. if convicted and if the republican party were to stand by the unprecedented prospect of running a convict as its nominee, then the voting public will decide how much that is a factor for their choices president of november 2024. we are living through these unprecedented times. and it's a challenge for prosecutors as well, with the most high-profile defendant in history. and the realities of an external voting calendar. >> let's bring it congresswoman zoloft karen from california, member the january six committee. andrew? >> congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us tonight. >> happy to be here. >> so one of the people who's gone a lot of attention recently with the new york

times running a front page story as mr. chesebro. i know that you as part of the january six committee deposed him or interviewed him as part of that committee and you were present for that. he seems to be well every but he's focused on mr. eastman, he seems to be quite a strong participant in the fake elector scheme writing three different memos. i guess i want to start with since you are somebody who sat there and listened to him, what were your impressions for the substance of his testimony his, demeanor, what did you make of him? >> well, i think he's a trooper lever. he wrote actually four memos, three that the committee had and one that we didn't outlining really the plot to overturn the election. you know, i don't know the man but he certainly was focused on

overturning the election and i think my believe is he will be held criminally to account for that. >> so one of the things that you mention was this idea that the roads separate memos but the committee only had three of them. what is the reason for that? is it because it was privileged, that somebody didn't turn over what they should've turned over to the committee? because that memo that is referred to in the indictments, the new york times seems to have been able to obtain it just recently, it seems to be pretty devastating if the reporting is cracked where mr. chesebro really lays out this scheme as you mentioned to overturn the election, if that was the real goal of the fake electors scheme. how did the committee not have it? and i don't mean that because

it didn't do the job, i mean in terms of what happened at in terms of not being turned over to you? >> well i don't know the answer, i don't believe it was any kind of privilege log, but we weren't provided the memo. the other memos were similar but not as direct as the memo we did not receive. and i think it's quite damning. this was an intentional effort to create fake electors and to overturn the election. to have the vice president recognize them on january 6th instead of the real electors or to somehow send them back to the states when no stated asked for that. it's part and parcel of this multi faceted plots essentially a coup. >> one of the things that is come up lately is sort of a defense do sure that this was only seeking a pause in some way as if that's somehow a mini coup is better than a full

coup. i was wondering what your take was on the side iitate is just a pause that is being sought. you have such deep experience in terms of being a congresswoman but also before that in terms of law enforcement. what's your take on that defense? >> i think it's ridiculous. for one thing, i understand vice president pence's publicly said it was not even true, he was asked to reject. and certainly that was even after the riot there were calls into the senate asking them to reject, to send it back to the states, that the states wanted them back. that's overturning the

election. to say that we are not gonna count the votes on january 6th as the electoral count act in the u.s. constitution provides is overturning the election. you know, these people are grasping for straws. >> congresswoman, given everything that's happening, want to show a key part of some of the testimony your committee gathered. let's take a look. >> in the days leading up to the six, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. i heard the former president say things so the effect of, i don't care if they have weapons are not here to her. >> i'm the effing president, taking up to the capital now. >> it jolted the nation. we read that it jolted the doj. i'm curious what we know now as many are waiting on even a possibility of a fourth indictment potentially a

georgia, what you think the history should say about this committee. we mentioned your watergate experience. with no disrespect to the committee or congress, as andrew knows, well the justice department doesn't care much about what members of committees conclude, surmise or think even if it's a coequal branch. doj supposed to caroline about evidence if, it turns out to be leaked video, could be voluminous testimony like we just saw, could be independent reporting. it seems to me, i'm curious what you say, that ultimately the special counsel determined the, meticulous work this committee did, not his conclusions per se, were relevant if not determinative? >> i'd say so. if you read the indictment, it's basically the committee report. they did not indict on the

incitement referral that we made and i think that's probably smart. it's complicated and if you want to get a conviction in a very clean manner, the other statutes are easier. but as mitch mcconnell said after the impeachment, practically and morally trump was responsible for the riot and although he did not vote to impeach because trump is no longer in office, he did point out that trump should be held accountable either under the civil law or criminal law. that's what's happening here. >> congressman, one of the

things that the committee did when you are done with your work was turned over so much information to the public, not just doj but so everyone could see it along with your report which is really commendable so everybody can see the data for themselves. i did have a question, because there are certain transcripts and i'm not much of a nerd that i focus on this stuff. there were certain transcripts that were not turned over publicly. for instance, to senior people who worked for brad raffensperger, that wasn't made public. i think judge luttig's transcript was not made public as well. i want if you could tell us what that was, why certain transcripts were not made public? >> we had about four terabytes of data that is available under the gpo. honestly, it was a mad scramble to get this report done in the closing days of december with members hunkered down in washington personally doing the editing. we did have a couple of law enforcement sensitive matters that we sent for review to both the white house and also dhs urging them to decide how the archives should handle these materials. and that was something we thought was prudent. i don't know that there's ever been another committee that has provided the information that this one did. ordinarily, there will be footnotes but you never have the information that is footnoted. we put out virtually everything we had. we never coordinated with the department of justice because that wasn't our rule. we are a separate branch. but we gave everything out i believe to the public. of course the department of justice can't rely on our transcripts. they have to do their own

investigation and their own interviews and the like. but i think we'll laid at the evidence that was very important for them to reach their conclusions. >> really stunning to hear that from the. on a serious no, he described the indictments partially the blueprint from the report is striking in your silverstone. on a lighter note congresswoman, we learned that tonight of the four or five people in the world who have tracked which the many transcripts were publicly released or not, one of them is here, so i just don't think a lot of people in the weeds like that. congressman, good to see. >> good to be seen and thanks for letting me participate. >> absolutely, appreciate your time. coming up, we'll be joined by andrews co-host on this prosecuting donald trump caucus, that's mary mccord for a large portion of tonight's events. we're excited to have everyone. we're also gonna discuss the

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accused of deliberately committing election crimes. indeed the word knowingly is used 36 times in that indictment describing criminal intent, pushing the conspiracy of election lies. >> it was fueled by lies. lies by the defendant targeted at obstructing the bedrock function of the u.s. government. >> the indictment lays out that evidence to show that trump

knew his claims were false. when trump found out pence was not gonna go ahead with the certification, he says you're too honest. if you're on the other side of that statement he said, you would be a liar. and during a military meeting with his military advisers, he was told the presidency's over, hesaid the idea, right it's too late for us. we're gonna give that to the next guy. also he secretly told others that when sydney powell was pushing her conspiracies about why trump really won, he called her crazy. how trump knew he lost, the preview of what might come in star witness testimony at trial. >> he was looking like, can you believe i lost to this effing guy. >> the president says i think it could've been pompeo, but he says words to the effect of, yeah we lost, we'll let that go to the next guy, meaning president biden. >> so he had said something to the effect of, i don't want

people to know we lost mark. this is embarrassing. figured out, we need to figure it out, i don't want people to know that we lost. >> so that's all pretty damning, and again that's from inside the team. we've heard this defense that while trump doubly the election was stolen from him. this has been kicking around not so much about legal experts who noted the doj doesn't even have to prove that trump knew he lost, although they have that evidence is a told, is not any kind of legal requirement, it's a variant of what this signed father's calls the costanza defense. so what's on your mind. >> jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it. >> which is technically true. what trump did or did not believe is not the point. you can believe that the bank has your money and you might even pass ally detector test or not because of your own

confusion about which bank you bank with where you put your money. that will not be a defense to robbing a bank or committing a conspiracy, for example conspire with other people to do so. a federal judge made a point take a look at the recent evidence from this january six rioter. this was after he stormed the capitol. this is a photo that many people to, just telling himself he, was climbing a trial that he still to that day believe the election was stolen. costanza. the judge found guilty and he said even if the defendant generally believed the election was stolen, that does not change the fact that he acted corruptly with consciousness of

wrongdoing. belief that your actions ultimately see the greater good does not negate consciousness of wrongdoing. in other words, if you want to get really legal with, it you have to get all the way from an incinerated defense, we are much more trouble, the fact you are mistaken and acting on your mistaken believe wrongly, doesn't help you. so if you break into the bank or the capitol you might have you just own justification. people have a lot of justifications for what they do in life. but he also know if you clashed with the police are sneak packed past the barricade, or go up to the bank safe, or attacked the teller or any number of hypotheticals, in doing so as a saint individual in the real world, you are clearly exhibiting that wrongdoing. that corrupt intent, that's a standard under the law. the judge also wrote that the first amendment doesn't give anyone the right to obstruct or impede congress. if we were gonna be lighthearted we would say the?

but of course from seinfeld to do to how serious these issues are, we also have to take a step back and remember there are real people committing real crimes with this kind of crap. and people around the former president trump are trying to mainline this to make you believe something that is false. which is kind of the thing these days. when we come back, mary mccord and andrew weissmann are here. we'll be right back. the coach. the manager. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. ♪ oh what a good time we will have ♪ ♪ you can make it happen ♪ ♪ yeah oh ♪ now, try new dietary supplements from voltaren for healthy joints. this is a bombas performance sock. for such a small item it performs big in so many ways. big on comfort.

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let's go get you the iphone. here we go, come on hon. (vo) trade in any iphone in any condition for a new iphone 15 pro on us. only on verizon. welcome back. i'm andrew weissmann. and i'm ari melber and joining us right now is mary mccord, the former acting assistant attorney general and the co-host with andrew weissmann of msnbc's podcast prosecuting donald trump. welcome. >> good to be here. >> we just went into it. what is the criminal intent here for donald trump as a coconspirator. >> all criminal charges almost all, require them to have some knowledge. really issues liability. but that's very different than saying he had a firm belief that the election was stolen as some sort of get out of jail free card. there are lots of things in this indictment that he engaged

in, conduct that he engaged in that went well beyond what you are legally allowed to do when you firmly believe you did not lose the election. >> let's stick with the bank example. let's say you firmly believe that the bank is evil or that it's federal deposits are the fruits of an evil american government and regime. let's say you pass a light tech to test and you have that firm belief that it's illegitimate. would that be an intent defense against knowingly going into the bank to steal the funds? >> and might be a not guilty by reason of insanity defense, but not intent for what you've done. you don't have the right to go take it just because you think the bank is evil. it could even have it more simple example. let's say you think the bank miscalculated the interest on

your savings account, and so it's not even at the bank's, evil it just wrong, and you've asked them for it, and they disagreed with you, but you firmly believe your math is right and your mouth is wrong, you just don't get to go hold up the back. that's exactly what we're talking about here. even if mr. trump did believe and i think there is abundant evidence to show that he could not have reasonably believed that there was six fraud significant enough to change the outcome. but even if he did, that does mean you can orchestrate a scheme of fake electors, send their ballots to the vice president to have recounted. it doesn't mean that you can put really unlawful pressure on state officials including either threatening criminal prosecution like he did with respect to secretary of state brad raffensperger. >> it's so funny because in our podcast sitting here thinking, you're not in your pajamas,

we're not drinking cups of coffee. here we are in grown-up close, suits. my analogy to this, you go to court. >> you go to court. >> you think there is an issue, and you go to court in the court says i don't really care if you think you were wrong you think you really want. guess what? that's what it means to be in a system with the rule of law. you can make your arguments, you can appeal them, you can do all you want, but the judge says you lost. >> or 65 judges say lost. >> so you are done. it doesn't matter if you happen to think the judge is wrong in the 65 judges were wrong, there actually is an answer and you heard. so to me i don't really care if he says -- i believe with you by the way, factually it's kind of the world's factual defense to go down that road because i don't think there is a jury that is ever going to be unanimously

concluded that's true. there's just too much in the indictment. >> and the indictment takes pains in every single section to talk about how many people, his own advisers, his own department of justice, state officials, election officials told him over and over and over there was no such evidence. and it and then every section ends with and then mr. trump or the defendant went out and said why? when i was just told otherwise. he was set up for nicely that way. >> i think you both give us a very clear understanding listed some of the shortcomings of that type of defense. the other thing we heard recently from defense trump's defense lawyer john lauro something that and you would say at the fbi, no back sees. where john lauro basically makes it sound like you could issue an illegal order or purse pursue -- it wasn't aspirational, it wasn't completed maybe took it back. well first of all, there's not a lot of things that donald trump took back in public. but second i would like both of

you to ex responder what we're about to hear and how that fits with the conspiracy case. take a listen. >> he asked mr. pence to pause the voting for ten days. he asked him in an aspirational way. let's just pause the voting. there was an effort to get alternate electors. this is the first time that the first amendment has been criminalized. but he is being indicted for ultimately is following legal advice. what he didn't do is send in the tanks. >> okay, there's three things going on there. first time no back sees. every time a charge is nate,

this something or say, i really wasn't would have sex with that underneath underage teenager, that this undercover officer lured me into agreeing to do. that was just fantasy. i wasn't really going to do it. same thing. in those conspiracies, it was just all we were just talking. >> i was just joking around about the coup. i raised it to the vice president, and he knew i was joking. >> everybody knew. that kind of idea that it is in kuwait, that it didn't come to fruition, except that it pretty much did come to fruition. this notion of a conspiracies oftentimes when people say we really working to do it. it doesn't work here, does more care factually, and something the laws that the deal with in many of the situations. and you had a flavor of this is the first amendment case. the criminalization of the first amendment protected speech.

we've been hearing that from john lauro as well as mr. trump and many also of trump's base supporters. this is something that jack smith dealt with and he makes clear at the beginning of it out mr. trump has the right first amendment right to speak. even as the first right amendment to lie. about what he thinks about the election results show. what he doesn't have the right to do is based on conduct that is based on a fraud. and fraught always involve some type of expression. that's the very heart of fraud. you have engaged in conduct, hear a conspiracy, multiple conspiracies based on a fraud, based on lies. so there is a distinction between speech was he is entitled to do and conduct that is something clear in the indictment. for the talking points for trump and his supporters, it makes for a quick clip and makes like what the judge has done is unlawful. and not what mr. lauro alluded

to was that he had advice of counsel. he says when your coconspirator is a lawyer, you don't get to rely on the coconspirators voice as a defense. here we know from the unindicted coconspirators who have been identified that most of those, all but possibly one were acting as lawyers. that's the thing one. thing too is you can't just go cherry-pick around when all of your lawyers are telling you there's no significant fraud and, his fraudulent elector scheme won't work. you can't just trying out new lawyers hunting at lawyers into if i want to agree with. >> two quick points. what, my reaction is if he raises religious follow the vice of my counsel's mar-a-lago. you are such a law abide or the want to hear what your lawyer will saying you want to follow that. the mar-a-lago case is going to consist of lawyers saying you

cannot, you cannot, you cannot. and he obstructed justice twice and he kept documents that he was told he couldn't keep. he actually lied to his lawyer as part of the obstruction scheme. that's 0. 1. the other defense du jour where they're trying things and out, i think there's something more nefarious going on. we think about the dominion case and the other case, these are really cases the deal with this alliance between the right-wing media and donald trump. this is a way to not just speak to the maga base but to give some veneer respectability to real possible defense to speak to the wall street journal editorial board, to the national review. see if something will play so the you can sort of triage between the maga base and some respectable outlets to see if you can get that sort of alliance going. the problem they have is that none of this works. none of this is a respectable argument. >> really striking for both of you. here's what we're gonna do. mary and andrew are both gonna stay, we'll be right back with a stress test for democracy.

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donald trump. andrew weissmann are here along with podcast co-host mary mccord. for the first time in history we, are looking in this indictment of a former president.

not once, not twice but three times of questions about whether it could become for in georgia. special counsel smith of course has the conspiracy to fraud the united states and other charges. with the backdrop trump is looking to run for office but they're serious democracy questions here which, is something liz cheney discussed last year about how trump roles in how weather that can consist coexist of a constitutional margin. >> the president who is attempting to unravel the foundations of our constitutional republic. we have to choose because republicans cannot both be loyal to donald trump and loyal to the constitution. >> with that in mind we are all here but we are also joined by ruth ben-ghiat, professor at nyu, author of strongmen, mussolini to the president. welcome to the discussion. >> thank you. >> we talk so much about law

and even if it wasn't a we are in a society even wasn't a table of lawyers that is steeped in law. you've written up beyond that lens, there are issues that what is a political process that is dogged by people would undermine the law or democracy itself? >> layers are really important now that autocrats come to power through elections a lot of the time. you have to have lawyers and other bureaucrats working really hard to undermine and subvert democratic institutions in processes. then if they get to power you have lawyers involved along with their other collaborators in states and exception, states of emergency, writing the laws the ekin justify all the crimes you have, so everybody who's a fan of democracy, is defending carl schmidt, who developed, the states of exception. so what happened today states of emergency are used by autocrats today. for example, if you're having

an election, because again today you don't ban elections, you keep them going. you declare a state of emergency so that not as many people can vote or you preemptively justify having dissidents thrown into jail just while the election is going on. and so the law is weaponized and used. it's like dosed out, the repression, and that's how they maintain themselves in power while seeming to claim that they have a semblance of democracy. >> i just find that so interesting given how much people are focused on eastman and chesebro and their memos and what was going on there. and this idea that in order for history for people like donald trump to subvert democracy that they need to have that sort of

legal facade of legitimacy. is that how you were thinking about this? >> yes, and the other thing with the coups, for everything -- my mantra think airy i, said this to you before, it's becoming more more relevant. for every thug you see bashing ahead in an insurrection, there are people in suits who have prepared the way with legal theories, other theories, order in military uniforms, but often today, trump couldn't get the military to play, so we had a civilian army. but there are always people behind the scenes who have prepared it and then are in place if it's successful to

kind of be the bureaucracy of repression. >> and that mary, the intersection with the candidates status is relevant because although there has been zero evidence that i've seen publicly that jack smith of the justice department has targeted donald trump because he was running again. having said that, it is a concern that you want to make sure that it doesn't happen. you wouldn't want a candidate targeted because he went out of his way the charge shows the. he got all this news and when you look at [inaudible] seven months go by new stark any indictments. there's actually something that he did play himself a, he declared himself earlier with it and a candid in american history, because he thought that would help make his argument that he might claim that the prosecution was targeting him.

if you look at this hypothetical miranda numbers, you just say the same seven months had trump declared his candidacy in a typical window, and then when he did around a 16 campaign, it would've been much later. but that backup. would've been much later, takes a minute to observe. that's at the same seven months that smith took, if he took the normal, time will remain december for the first indictment and, middle of the primaries fabric for the second. doj rules, and other reasons why you wouldn't even get a charge. so mary, my question to you, one of our legal experts is twofold. one, donald trump blame himself for not understand when he thought he was gaming the system is actually inviting a special counsel? and to, where do we go in the future whatever happens with this case now that the american public feels habituated to this level of investigation, special counsel, as the mueller one. they had valuable predicates but we don't want to live in a cycle of this of investigations? >> there's no question we have more special counsel last year 's than ever seen historically. it's been basically guided by particularly the attorney general merrick garland wanted to maintain the independents, a very tight of independents that

ruth hasn't acknowledged doesn't happen in other autocratic countries. so soon as donald trump declared his presidency, even though there was a well-known open investigation going on into donald trump, and in fact the mar-a-lago search warrant had already been issued, the attorney general felt that he just had to in order to support this important principle of the independents of the department of justice from the political part of the executive branch, meaning the white house, the presidency, he felt compelled to do that. now whether trump knew that that was was gonna happen i don't know. >> the evidence says he doesn't. no >> but one thing he wouldn't necessarily know is what merrick garland is like as a prosecutor versus what jack smith is like as a prosecutor. remember when jack was appointed everybody said, what does this mean is this gonna slow things down? and for those of us who knew jack smith who, we said slow things down? >> garland would be iota, and respectable and why us >> you don't know? iota is a figure in star wars. jack smith would be someone with a lightsaber. skywalker, i feel like a, vader if you don't. one thing jack smith's critics and allies agree izzy wields's

lightsaber moves. quickly >> definitely moves quickly. >> this is quite similar the podcasts. >> again, if he was thinking this was somehow, mr. trump think this was somehow gonna make it go away, he thought very wrong. but what it did give him his disability -- it didn't stop him, it didn't give him the ability to say this was all politically motivated, but it certainly didn't stop him, and of course that's the whole spiel right now. that this is a political

opponent, a declared candidate, his likely opponent in 2024 using the department of justice to go after him because he's the leading republican candidate right now for the nomination. >> i want to just say how successful their information warfare has been. we're not prepared as a democracy to understand fully the effects of the assault of propaganda, highly skilled propaganda as are others around him. it is worked for them. not only 70% of americans, there's new poll 70% of americans think he won the election. one out of six americans in a new cbs news poll think that all of these indictments and investigations are just a way to punish him and keep him out of the white house. so this is working for them. when trump's lawyer, when all of a sudden they say why is he spending so much time on tv instead of preparing the defense, i was like, well this is his job. information war for is the job. >> that's why they're so many

arguments, we're probably gonna run into a brick wall in court. i want to get all those angles covered. ruth ben-ghiat thank you for joining the conversation, mary mccord. and we will be right back. (♪♪) and you realize you're in love... steve? with a laundry detergent. (♪♪) gain flings. seriously good scent. trelegy for copd.

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welcome back. i appreciate the time doing this special with andrew weissmann, prosecuting donald trump which is partly inspired by the podcast he is doing with mary mccord. >> it has been a complete honor to be doing this with the great mary mccord especially at a time like this. this is not just unprecedented but it's just such a serious moment for our country so it's to have time to talk to someone who's so strong on these issues. >> and the pod, we have something from the pod. >> let's hear it. >> let's play a little bit of the podcast with andrew and mary. >> this couldn't be more historic and important matter for the country. >> the former president solicited a crime of violence against his own vice president. this section of the indictment spells out a crystal clear -- the role of violence in the whole entire scheme. >> i think there is no way i'm god's green earth that donald

trump isn't sentenced to jail time. >> those are a couple of clips from the podcast with andrew weissmann and mary mccord. you can use your phone and scan the code. this is one of the fastest ways to do, reopen your phone camera, scan the code just like a restaurant with a menu and it will take you to prosecuting donald trump. and i can tell you nobody asked me to say this, is to the experts we call on all the time, we think it's a very worthwhile podcast. we do encourage you to check it out. also say as always. if you just want to keep logged into msnbc, that is also perfectly fine. indeed right now coming up, we have the newest episode of one of our other special series rainn wilson and the geography of bliss.

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