>> good evening, i'm ali velshi

in for alicia menendez. american voices will be back tomorrow. welcome back to a special edition of velshi. we begin this hour with dysfunction in the house of representatives. the federal government will shut down one week from tonight, if house republicans cannot figure out a path forward to perform their basic constitutionally assigned duties. this chaos and disorder is 100% avoidable in congress if they just do their job. shut down now seems all but certain if speaker kevin mccarthy cannot find convince a faction of far-right republicans to sign off on a deal from the government. today on capitol hill, members of the roads committee discussed the path forward for appropriation bills that mccarthy plans to put on the house floor on tuesday. speaker mccarthy is not relying on hope to somehow pull a rabbit out of a head for a solution.

>> i always believe, when you get to the final deadlines, that's when the real crunch. comes on believing in human behavior furthest that have been holding out, no one that crunch time is coming. even if they say, why didn't all this happen sooner? they are the ones that held it up. maybe they'll see the pressure and do something differently. >> he's relying on human behavior. that's interesting. mccarthy's new plan leaves congress just five working days to avoid a shutdown. a house bill would have to pass the senate, by the way, and then the president would have to sign off on it. this is a basic function of congress. it is congress has responsibility to fund the federal government, a power given to the house and senate and the constitution of the united states. it's called the appropriations clause. no money shelby drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law. and quote. this is a simple duty laid out in black and white. but chaos and dysfunction seem to be the goal for several hard-liners this morning. i spoke with the branca cost

has -- on what it takes to lead in a divided government. >> some of these folks have a mindset. i think we could agree, we have a 33 trillion dollar debt, we've got to get our arms around this. shutting it down is not the answer. they won 30% cuts to some of the discretionary spending, that's not going to fly. you know you've got to do this in the senate, you've got a democratic president. we have negotiated the best deal we can, and knowing there's a democrat senate and democrat president, -- that's how it supposed to work. >> interesting point he brings up. this thing has to pass the senate and has to pass the president. joining me now is michigan congressman dan kildee, a democrat. he is a member of the house budget committee. congressman kildee, always a

pleasure to see you. it's important because you're a member of the actual committee for the actual ideological differences between conservatives and liberals need to be discussed. and that is the country's national debt, 4 to 3 trillion dollars, republicans talk about all the time. it's a felon argument, people say we've got too much the door doesn't matter. debate can be had in the venue in which use it. it is not meant to be had in a discussion about the government. >> that's right. and it's actually meant to be had by all members of the house and the senate. and apparently what kevin mccarthy has done is re-read the constitution and somehow interpreted that it's up to his republican conference to negotiate with one another. rather than negotiate with people who will actually vote for the final piece of legislation to fund the

government. let me just make that clear. they papal that kevin mccarthy is negotiated with, most of righteous members of congress, maybe the most outrageous ever elected to congress. they have no intention of supporting the final piece of legislation that will be a result of the house, senate negotiation. so i don't know why he's negotiating with them. how about us? he should give a call to hakeem jeffries. i've been through this before. when port ryan was the speaker and nancy pelosi was the democratic leader, they couldn't put it together with just their votes, the same way kevin's dealing with right now. i was in everett when nancy pelosi called paul ryan and said, law, quake and help as

long as you found at least one of our priorities. they said yes and she sent over to paul ryan's office to negotiate for the flint word across this relief. and we deliver the votes because we came together. some were our priorities, some work there was. why speaker mccarthy just can't take a page out of recent history and realize it takes compromise. it takes democrats and republicans to do the final deal, so let's just do it now. >> that's what don bacon said this morning. that's what mark sanford, an all-time tea party member said this morning. it's congress, you're not getting 100% of what you want. that's at nonstarter. that's not going to happen. and look, you tell me. i'm hearing that what you just talked about, about what happened in past times, with ryan and with pelosi is underway. in other words, i feel like hakeem jeffries has either made

the offer or is standing ready to say, kevin mccarthy, will help you get this done, you give us something, you will get the votes. tell me whether you know that to be true, and if true, how that plays out for kevin mccarthy? because those guys on the far-right are going to have him removed a speaker for this. >> i don't know what conversations leader jeffries has had. i know the conversations i've had with him over time. he's demonstrated and expressed a willingness to have this conversation. and in fact, we didn't to look at very far, we just have to go all the way back to the tim ryan and the political position. we can look at may 31st 2023, when democrats and republicans came together two thirds of the republicans in the house almost three quarters of the democrats in the house voted for the same budget deal. remember, what we were debating

then, was a debate over the debt ceiling with the republican leaders use that as leverage to get a budget deal. a budget deal! that's what we're talking about now. they walked away from a bipartisan agreement, walked away from something that two thirds of the congress could support to negotiate with matt gaetz and marjorie taylor greene. i mean, that's irrational. that's irrational. >> but it does seem some of your republican colleagues are sticking to come around. you're just dealing with people who are rational. this are the new, congressman graves slammed what he called the obstructionists. don bacon calls them dysfunctional. this is what graves said. >> the arsonists have lit their house on fire. they are whining about their house burning. there are going to want credit for putting the fire out, and then they're going to sit up a gofundme to get paid for what happened. this is really the disingenuous. what we need to be to right now, and what we should have been two of months ago, it is not blocking the appropriations bills as we saw. >> he's the guy who mccarthy brought in when the debt ceiling competition was going on. he's the pecan for mccarthy when things are looking like they're going to go wrong. he's saying, he's colin arsonists. he's got mainstream republicans colin this defection all sorts of names that don't sound like members of congress. but they are with us and

they're a small group, but they seem to be in control of what's going on in congress. it's incredible. >> it is incredible. and he's right. they are dealing with political arsonists. to take the metaphor to its extreme, the fire department is a bipartisan solution. and it's sitting right there. we have already made the deal. we negotiated it and may. if they want to change that some law, let's have a conversation. but we're not going, we just don't have a democratic system that says that one party with a very slight minority made up of people who are not ever going to vote to keep the government open anyway should call all the shocks. it's just not the way the democratic society functions. and let's be clear, this is because kevin mccarthy made a rotten deal to become speaker. he traded away control of the speakership so he wants to have hijab but not do the job. that's not workable. it's week.

it's really weak. >> congressman, as you know, one of the reasons i love talking to you folks from michigan, i'm from canada, we're close to each other. exactly. you and others have been involved with the uaw on the strike. we've got a president, first time sitting president getting involved in this. coming down to the picket lines on tuesday. i haven't talked to her, i want to talk to her tomorrow, but i haven't talked to a colleague davy dingell about this. she is not sure it's a good idea the president involved on this. what's your take? >> i think it's helpful. i think anytime any of us represent, in his case, hundreds of millions of people. stand with the workers on the picket line. it sends a message that their

efforts are not in vain. i was on the picket lines yesterday. i was back there this afternoon. and i welcome president biden. i'm glad that he's coming. and look, i think it sends a powerful message. i talked to people on the picket lines today and tell than president biden's coming and their eyes lit up. because they know that they are presidencies them and understands that they are struggle is real and it's meaningful. and when they win, we all when. it's good for everyone. and i'm encouraged by it. >> but congressman, you are, we are watching together. a resurgent labor movement in this country. one that i've not seen for a, territory longtime. with the teamsters taking the hard-line on u. p. s. and getting major concessions, major increases. the uaw asking for a 30% plus and for his over for heroes, and when questioned about that saying, that's what the bosses got. it's different. the flavor of these unions and these strikes are a little bit different than if been for the last 30 or 40 years. >> different, yet right. different from the last 30 or 40 years but ribbons and all

the strength of the labor movement decades and decades ago. >> yes. >> in my own hometown of flint, when the workers occupy the factories back in 1936, got that first uaw contract in 1957. sacrifices to get it, but after that they built the middle class because they had the kind of compensation that allows them to be the middle class. so what i think the workers, i see the workers do it now, is trying to reclaim that legacy. they sacrificed, these autoworkers, sacrificed a lot 14 years ago. gave a lot of concessions to keep those companies from failing. and they did. they succeeded. and i think with the workers are saying now is we just wanted to get back to where we were. we want our fair share. we had it before, we want to be part of that now. >> always a pleasure, congressman, thanks for spending time with me this evening. michigan congressman dan kildee, a member of the house budget committee, a committee that's

very, very important always, but this week in particular. a committee, by the way, that is referred to obliquely in the constitution as haven't really shops to do and congress. thank you. next, i'll be talking to a striking member of the united auto workers ahead of president biden's historic visit to the picket line. and coming, up donald trump's lawyers have days to respond to a gag order request in the election interference case. we'll talk about how with can enforce a enforcement order like that. but next, richard louis. >> tropical storm affiliate battling north carolina coast today, the storm made landfall today as well, working 70 mile an hour winds and heavy rains. local officials weren't dangerous flooding, especially and coastal areas. homeland security secretary traveled to the u.s. mexico border today. that trip comes as the bought an administration sent additional troops to help with an influx of migrants at the border. and former president jimmy

carter and his right wife rosalynn met in appearance at the famed planes peanut festival today. the attack comes this before the former presidents 19th birthday. carter wrote in the back of an issue faith with the windows down. it's the first time the former president was in public since he entered hospice earlier this year. 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! uuuhhhh... here, i'll take that! woohoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar. enter the $10,000 powered by protein max challenge. ♪ ♪ as the world keeps changing, so does covid-19. that's why this season's covid-19 shots have been updated. they're one of the best ways to help protect yourself against covid-19. learn more and schedule at vaccines.gov that's me before dawn powerwash. [sigh] now, powerwash gives me the power of an overnight soak in minutes. with 3 cleaning boosters... not found in traditional dish soaps

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deadline and the federal election interference case. his lawyers have until a month to respond to the special counsel request for a gag order. the proposed order regard trump from attacking the judge, prosecutors, or potential jurors. it would also prevent him from publicly discussing any would necessarily. prosecutors described the odor as narrow in scope and if the court agreed to limit trump speech, his reelection campaign could make enforcement of that turkey. as charlie savage writes in the new york times, it would be one of them to impose a fine, but if he refused to pay it or to

tone down his statements, the next step for a judge and a normal case would be to order imprisonment. joining me now, former u.s. attorney caroline. a msnbc legal analyst. carol, good to see you. thanks for being with us. >> thank you, ali. >> you're right judge. and this is actually complicated. charlie puts it simply, but, yes, the first step would be to order the arrest of donald trump, it would be to possibly weren't empty. second step might be to impose a fine. then what actually happens? because i believe nobody wants to be the judge that sends someone to arrest donald trump for a tweet or something he said in his speech. >> you're right about that. and you're also right that when you become a judge the first and they tell you is don't do what you see on tv. don't thank the gavel and set your in contempt and i'm throwing you and president. that just doesn't happen. you have to process. as a criminal defendant with respect to orders like this. i think one of the problems is with the word guy older. it's sort of implies that reporting a gag over a person's mouth and they can't say anything.

that's not the case here. what jack smith is requesting, based on donald trump's prime behavior is requesting sort of restraint of extra judicial statements, and odor saying, look, you just can't do what you have been doing. which is basically threatening or calling upon others to take some sort of retaliatory action against court personnel. potential jurors, witnesses, lawyer, is that sort of thing. so that's what we have here. but in terms of enforcement of any restrictive older that the judge may impose, i actually think there are a few things that she could do. certainly she could impose a monetary fund. she could say, i'm going to impose a fine of x dollars the first time you violet my older. it will double if you do it again. it will triple after to end again. and that doesn't work, she could go another path. she could say, i'm actually going to require you, and this was done with a lot mosque and a civil case, before you say

anything on social media, you have to run and bought your lawyers. and that is actually, albeit in a civil case, it has been upheld by an appellate court. that's another possibility. that she could put his attorneys on the hot seat as officers. >> that's interesting. that's not a first amendment right, that's not saying, you can't say what you want, but brought in for a full court to move shortly not breaking any laws and saying things. because donald trump associates all of this with stifling of his speech. but that's not actually what jack smith is asking for. when you read that and document, it says on the second page, donald trump had a right to deny the election. he had a right to lie about the election. he had a right to seek -- about the outcome of the election. >> you're right. >> but you're saying there's

something for specific. jack smith's not interested in curtailing donald trump's free speech rights. >> he's not interested in curtailing his free speech rights but he is three interested in maintaining the sanctity anti respect and the safety for core personnel and potential jurors and witnesses. that's -- you have to have that. it what the judged is also interested in. >> trump's, let's just switch to another issue here, that's also going on. donald trump is backing, obviously, the far-right republicans and his congress and not his longtime ally kevin mccarthy in this budget standoff that's going on and congress. the former impeachment merida sure, representative jamie raskin says he thinks he knows. while this. >> donald trump is calling the shots across the board. he wants, he thinks he can shut down these indictments and the work of the special counsel and the department of justice and the federal courts by getting matt gaetz and much retailer kareen and three other members of the maga caucus to the royalty house and shut down the

government of the united states. he's badly mistaken. so he's got to shut them all the rest of the u.s. government in order to blockade his prosecutions, but it's not even going to work. >> how do you react from that? because actually the prosecutions against donald trump wouldn't stop in the case of a government shot down. >> they wouldn't stop. congressman ruskin is quite correct that the department of justice, on a criminal side, would continue functioning because of special appropriations mechanisms that are in place. there was some foresight that even if there was no budget passed, and this was done years ago, you simply couldn't have the department of justice crowning to a halt. however, what donald trump is proposing, you know, is so frightening. you can have disagreements about whether particular prosecution should be brought as a matter of policy and such, but for a presidential candidate to say, this is your

chance to shut down the department of justice, because that would terminate any prosecutions or investigations of me, i think, is something so frightening that all, everybody, everybody in the country should take part of it. >> carol, good to talk to you. thanks for being with us. former u.s. attorney and judge carolan. if you want to catch up on all four indictments against donald trump, you can't. the trump indictments content all the charging documents against donald trump and his codefendants, complete and unabridged. it was it's a bit and introduced by me. it comes out on monday. you can preorder red right now. coming up next, i talked to a striking audit worker about life on the picket line. and later, a missouri republican running for governor threatened to burn, not, banterer on the law of the governor's mansion. the leader of the states school

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learn how abbvie could help you save. >> the auto worker strike is expanding. on friday that united auto workers, more union members joined the picket lines. growing the strike to include 33 parks and distribution locations across 24 states. the new locations mostly effect general motors and stellantis, which is the company we used to notice chrysler for yet. ford was spurred from additional strikes thanks to recent progress on reaching a deal, according to leaders of the uaw. on friday, president biden announced he is going to join picketers tuesday and michigan. that triple mark arguably muscle confidential of solidarity for unions or his by sitting president in american history. consider this. and 19 anyone, ronald reagan fired more than 11,000 striking air traffic controllers. they were a federal employees, a little bit different, but that by reagan was recently celebrated by the republican south carolina senator tim scott, who is running for president.

>> ronald reagan did a great example. when federal workers said that would strike, he said, you're fired. simple concept to me. we can use that once again, we absolutely will. >> those remarks didn't land well with union members. uaw president shawn fain filed a complaint against senator scott with dave national labor relations board. it's worth noting, uaw is yet to endorse a presidential candidate but did not respond in 2020. donald trump is fighting for that endorsement, making in trip to detroit on wednesday to

give a speech, in direct competition with his second gop debate, in which he is not participating. and according to recent polls, union worker strikes have the majority of support from americans, including republican members surveyed. joining me now, jim roe, a worker from the stellantis plant in ohio. he is on strike. jim, thanks for being with us. first of all, tim scott saying, you strike your fired. i don't think you need to be a ph.d. or a master student or even an undergraduate student and labor law to understand, he's not actually allowed to tell you people that. >> no, he can't. and that was taken away a long time ago. and our president shawn fain, he's taken control of that. so this politics really needs to stay out of this. this is about the workers and the billions of dollars that we have made for these big three

companies, and we still need to focus on the workers and what we are entitled to. >> i remember back in the day, when ford was haven't real trouble, and then we got into 2007-2008 financial crisis, when car companies were in trouble. they went to u workers and, said we need you to help us. we need you to help us get through this. and the uaw agreed to do that. and now you're asking for 30 plus percent increases over four here is. and when shawn fain was asked about that, he said, take a look at what our bosses are. and take a look at what our ceo earns. you're asking for your piece of the pie back, and the companies are saying, that too much money.

>> yeah, they have gotten 40% races over the last decade. and actually, the big three ceos, they make 386% more than the average worker per here. that's outrageous. 2009, when we gave up or concessions and we started to go back to work, new hires for making $15.78. 14 years later there are still making $15.78. it's unacceptable. >> what looks like success to you in this? because there are some people who use the argument, by the way, the writers guild strike been going on for a lot longer. the sag-aftra strikes been going on for a lot longer. people say, you need to live to fight another day. your strike funds are not big enough that you construct for a year. if the companies that come to the table, you could wreck the economy, there will be layoffs. what's your argument here? shawn fain says we don't live to fight another day, this is

actually the fight. >> this is the day. we're in the fight. we ain't quitting. we are fighting, and we're gonna fight to the end. and we're gonna stay out on the line, and we have a lot of solidarity and a lot of back in from the community leaders. and like you have seen, throughout the united states, the public is with us. >> let's talk about that. i want to put on the screen, a poll that shows support for union members strikes among all americans right now. 58% support, 32% opposed. that the auto workers strike. the hollywood strike, 60% support, 27% opposed. even when you look at that same poll and polls just republican voters, even there it's either a majority of republicans who support the strikes or there's a dead heat. your point, jim, if that politics is actually playing less of a part in this. the american people support your right to collectively bargain and earn more money

than you would earning. and i don't know how long if it in the business, but this has really come full circle. there was a moment when american unions were really strong, and then there were decades when they weren't. what's happened? why are we back in this place when the american workers are supporting your ability to go on strike and hold out for whatever he wants. >> i think people across the united states hours and there is a middle class and we have to support the middle class, and keep it that way. there is not a billionaire class and then no class. the middle class is the united states way. and that's what the uaw anti-unions were all about. supporting the middle class and keeping family wages to where we can support each other.

>> jim, what is it you do, by the way, as an auto worker? >> i was a union rep for 16 years, now i'm back in the plant. i'm an auditor, actually, i audit jeeps. i've been there for 39.5 years. and it's been good to me. we have given up a lot in my 39 years, and this is our day. >> how do you feel being on the line right now? it's gotta be scary? your income is on the line, we know that layoffs have begun. often implores views trucks as a reason to lay people off because of production stops. how do you actually feel about all of this? >> it's scary. i have a daughter that works there. she's a single female. she has her own home. it is scary. but with the solidarity between everyone here in toledo, it's very uplifting. because the community is behind us. community leaders are behind us. and everyone is helping. >> jim, thank you for joining us. thanks for giving us perspective from the ground on this one. jim roe is a uaw local 12 member in toledo. he's on strike, like many other uaw numbers are right now. next, we hear from a republican congressman about how the far-right hostage taking of the federal budget is going to empathy for his own party. plus, a missouri governor candidate threatens to burn

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learn more and schedule at vaccines.gov >> as you know, or a week away from a government to them. speaker kevin mccarthy said his conference is making progress. conference is what the republicans call caucus. this led to resume votes on a series of appropriations bills on tuesday, which doesn't mean the republican infighting is over. republican leadership this week lost two procedural votes. remember, they control the house of representatives. they lost two procedural votes, in dramatic and unexpected fashion. now, some republicans are calling out members of their own party themself. among them is the nebraska congressman don bacon. i spoke with him today about the radical members of his caucus. here's some of that conversation. >> the effect, is we're going to have to be in agreement with the senate when this is all said and done. it that the speaker and our conference, we work across the

aisle and get a bipartisan deal on spending because we are going to have to do that anyway. we are going through a lot of gymnastics right now. to get 218 or 200 to the republicans. five refused to do that. let's realize that, kept him out, work with democrats to make the best deal we can as republicans and govern. these five people will not govern. they want a shut down. they said it yesterday. they what i should down. most republicans do not. 95% of us do not want a shutdown -- let's make these people irrelevant, for across the aisle, in the way james madison designed. these people are dysfunctional and there's a lot i'd like to say about them. they would vote against survival because it's not as though jesus said it. >> what's that like to be don bacon today? every time something crazy happens in congress, i end up invoking your day. here is a guy out there making the reasonable statement -- but

you remained a republican. it's got to be tough being three republican who's on msnbc this morning telling us what's wrong about the republican conference. >> i'm a ronald reagan republican, down deep. he was the first guy i campaigned for when i was 13 years old. i love abraham lincoln. i'm the party of reagan and lincoln. we have some folks far away from the reagan philosophy of take 80% and make a deal. these folks want 100% and would prefer zero than 80%. their goal post moves with every day, so it's like 5:00 and i want to come back to that. 95% of us or not these 5%. so -- this 5% is tainting us.

because the outsized sees this dysfunction, and it's 5% doing it. and it reflects poorly on the rest of us. they should know that. most of these folks were brought up a minority where they can yell and scream and vote no. when you're at the majority, you've got to govern. and that means taking this 80%, imperfect. in congress, there is a very seldom a perfect deal. most everything we do is imperfect. there's 435 of us in the house, 100 in the senate. that's just reality. ronald reagan had it right. if i can agree with you 80% of the time, let's do it. >> thanks again to republican congressman don bacon from nebraska. at the top of the hour on ayman, congressman jimmy gomez. that's at eight pm on msnbc. but after this break, a man running to be governor of missouri threatens to burn books that he deems too woke. the leader of missouri school

librarians is here to weigh in. librarians is here to weigh in. ♪ sunny ♪ ♪ thank you for the love you brought my way ♪ ♪ sunny one so true, i love you ♪ as the world keeps changing, so does covid-19. that's why this season's covid-19 shots have been updated. they're one of the best ways to help protect yourself against covid-19. learn more and schedule at vaccines.gov (vo) the new iphone 15 pro with titanium is here. get it on us, with verizon's best business unlimited plans. get the new iphone 15 pro, on us. it's your business, it's your verizon.

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i'm sure my might turn to nazi germany in the 1930s, or a dystopian novel like fahrenheit 451. but just this week, a missouri lawmaker running for governor threatened a mass burning right here in the united states. it started with a simple fire at a, quote, freedom fest event outside of st. louis. organizers say those boxes represent left district policies, although they said no books were actually burned. bill eigel was one of those who participated. he later tweeted, you bring those woke, pornographic books to missouri schools to try to brand what our kids, all burn those too on the law of the

governor's mansion. to be clear, the book to which his referral are not pornographic novels buttons that looks like gender queer, a memoir -- which harlot lgbtq identity. classics like the handmaid's tale like margaret atwood, yet another repeat guest on the velshi banned book club. and -- banned in missouri for including themes related to six and sexuality. so far, more than 300 titles hat removed from the state. third in the nation for the most banned books after florida and texas. joining me now, tom, president of missouri association of school librarians. tom, librarians, i don't know what you get into it for. it's not the money, that's obvious. i don't think you get into it for culture wars. i think you get into it for the

love of writing and the ability to guide people, specifically children, and what it is that they are seeking out. the concept of burning books, i don't know how you can even sit still well talking to me on this thing. the memories this brings back of the worst moments of human history, and he had you're discussing this today. >> yeah, i think that one thing that said is that the use of books and school librarians and school libraries has been politicized to the degree it has, but i think the writer you spoke about is not only said but dangerous, and something really concerning to me. you're right, i didn't get into this job to have this conversation. i got into this job to connect to kids with the right story at the right time. and luckily i get the chance to do that every school day that i go into work. unfortunately, there's also things like this that are

happening when i walk outside of a school every day as well. >> we talk about the politics a lot. we don't talk enough to people let you, librarians and school teachers who deal with this. let's talk about some of these books. all boys are blue. this is a book, when i asked the author, george, about the criticism of why some people say, you know, early teens, people who are 12 or 13, should greatness, his response was the stuff i'm writing about sexual result, gay sexual assault of young people, happens at that age. margaret atwood, you shouldn't

write about that stuff, margaret atwood wrote it in 1985, a world it looks like we're seeing in 2023. they're a kids who want to read books. today i spoke to somebody about a graphic novel of and frank, that a teacher got fired for in texas, for introduced into her class because there's pornography. and frank is talking about the changes to her 13 and 14 year old buddy. it's not pornography when we're talking about changes to your body. how do you address this? kids need this information. they need to say these stories. they need to themselves reflected in books. >> one thing we've seen happen and the state of missouri is what you just spoke about. we've also just seen laws being passed that restrict those types of books from being on school shelves.

i think that's another extremely concerning thing that's happening. books like gender queer. books like the handmaid's tale. books like home after a deck. those are titles that students not only want to read, but need to have access to, because not only do they want to know about the world around them, sometimes they want to know or better understand how they are feeling and bitter understand themselves. and some of these books do an incredible job of helping them through that type of understanding. >> banning books on the basis of pornography, the argument he's making, it's as old as the hills. it's a fundamental mom thinning of pornography. there can be a hearty debate we

can have about whether or not pornography, what is actually pornography should be accessible to what age it should be because about to people. admiral the affect everybody's got a phone and you can get all the park for you want. but this isn't actually pornography. children breeding romeo and juliet in florida. the discussions they have. if you want to use the versions of pornography this candidate is using, there would be no choice, there would be no shakespeare, and there would be no bible. >> i think the point room at the beginning is so important. and i just want to restate it. there is no pornography on school library shelves and the state of missouri. there never has been. there never will be. but what they're our, our books that make people think. and apparently there are books that make people uncomfortable. and i think that is why we see these types of book challenges

that come to schools and districts and book bans that come through legislation as well. >> so what's the answer here? because again, you didn't get into this to be in the middle, and i didn't want to call it a cultural war, because you are not finding it. you didn't as to be in this thing. but what happens? what do you want to happen until the demolition that lots of americans will have, this is a whole lot of bs that's going to look at the dangerous society. what does success look like for you? >> success on a small scale looks like making connections with your community mp and trusted member of the community. the challenge does happen. you become a trusted voice in speaking up for students access to information and students right to read. i think on the bigger scale, when we look at what's happened and missouri with regard to that law i mentioned earlier, missouri library association is working with aclu of missouri to fight that. and so we want that law to be deemed unconstitutional. and we hope that if that happens that will send a

message to people in government that it is not their job to dictate what books are on the shelves and what students get to read. but that library -- let them do their jobs and making books accessible to students, and students and parents are actively working on what their breeding life is like and making decisions about what books are best for them. when we have legislature go against, government go against that, we're taking away the rights of students but also the rights as parents. >> this is exactly my point. i want you to curated for my children what they read, or for me what are great. i do not wish to give you, as a librarian or the library, or the school board or the state of missouri, or the government of the united states, the right to tell me what i can rate. the right to tell me what my child cannot access. that's the distinction. i might really like you, tom, but i don't want you making the decisions that i have constitutional protections to make for myself and my family. >> absolutely, you're 100% right. when we look at the law, some laws are going in places, not just missouri, but other places as well. we say those rights and families have, it's putin's,

have those rights being ratcheted. that's one reason why missouri association of school appearance has decided to join into this litigation that we have that is pending right now for exactly that reason. >> tom bober, thank you. i know you don't represent all librarians in merica, but for the purpose of this moment and the show you actually do. and so would like to thank you on behalf of all librarians in america for a fight you are not looking for but a fight your. in tom bober, president of missouri association of school librarians. thanks for watching, american voices is back tomorrow, and i will see you tomorrow morning at 10 am eastern. and don't forget, velshi is also available as a podcast in which i were a vest all the time when i read about it. it's a great podcast. that's a joke, i don't wear a vest. ayman is up next after the break. only platinum plus is bigger. with double the dawn grease fighting power and double the scrubbing power. for a no rewash clean... and a cabinet ready shine. rewash? not in my house. upgrade to cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? [dog barks] oh. no it's just a bunny! calm down taco. sit duchess. stop! sesame no no. archie!

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