>> good morning to you. it's sunday, september 24th. i'm ali velshi. we begin this morning with america at a crossroads, a sense of national unease diminishing confidence in our system of government coming from several places at once. let's start with capitol hill. i was republicans are mired in a fight with each other which has set us on a path to a devastating government shutdown which is six days away. a small group of house republican extremists are continuing to hold up any sort of meaningful action on the

matter with their refusal to even consider a short term funding bill known as a continuing resolution. it's a measure which could realistically be brought to the floor of congress over the past few days before funding runs out next saturday at midnight. instead, republican holdouts want to consider each appropriations bill separately which is a time consuming and extensive process that would take more than a week. ahead of the call with republicans yesterday afternoon, speaker kevin mccarthy expressed a bit of hope, telling reporters he things when it gets down to crunch time the holdouts will, quote, hopefully move off. a few hours later, however, this meant, delusion a congressman garrett grace, a mccarthy ally, you will remember him, he was instrumental in the debt ceiling negotiations of few months back. he had tougher words. he compared the holdouts to arsonists who burned their own houses down than want credit for putting the fire out, he added, quote, anyone who says

we are going to finish all 12 appropriations bills between now and next saturday's absolutely hallucinating, and quote. in short, not much progress has been made since speaker mccarthy sent people home after it became apparent that his congress had reached an impasse. this is just the latest instance of discontent among republican ranks in what is turning out to be a turbulent session of congress. speaker mccarthy and the vast majority of house republicans have failed to pacify a very small but very loud group of hardheaded far-right republicans although it is doubtful anything could actually pacify them since their only discernible strategy is to cause chaos. in fact, the speaker has already caved into a number of their demands, including opening an impeachment inquiry into president biden, an effort rooted in the politics of grievance of former president donald trump. the twice impeached multi

indicted former president remains the front runner for the republican presidential nomination despite the multitude of legal problems that he faces, including the 91 criminal counts for which he has been charged. trump is said to be the defendant in multiple trials over the coming year, including a civil trial against him and his company brought by the new york state attorney general letitia james which has been scheduled to start onoctober 2nd but may get delayed. trump's campaign for the presidency this time around is alsotriggering a constitutional crisis of sorts as various election officials, scholars, and illegal entities try to determine if he is even constitutionally eligible to run for president. to emphasize he is confident in securing the republican nomination, trump and his campaign have already begun to pivot to the general election. he is skipping next week's republican crime area debate which will be held at the ronald reagan library in california this coming wednesday. trump will instead hold a rally in detroit, a calculated move as he tries to calculate --

some of whom have been on strike for the last couple of weeks. this weekend, the united auto workers expanded in their strike from through plans to 38 warehouses across 28 states as the summer strikes officially extend into the fall season. the writers guild of america is now on day 146 of its strike and despite some news of progress in the last couple of days no deal has he had been reach. the screen actors guild has also been on strike for months now which has all but put a stop to most film and television production in america. the united auto workers strike has the potential to cause the most widespread disruption to american lives and to the entire auto industry in north america if it is not resolved quickly. the uaw has already earned the support of president biden who will travel to michigan this weekend says he will, quote, join the picket line and stand in solidarity with the men and women of the uaw as they fight for air fair share of the value they helped create.

joining me now is bob king, the former president of the united auto workers union. he's a lecturer at the university of michigan ellis a residential college. good to see you. thank you for being with us this morning. the uaw extended its strike this weekend from three plants to 38 additional warehouses in 20 states. according to the associated press, that's 12% of the membership of the union which means there is a lot more headway to expand these strikes to a larger scale. it's very effective. it's a different type of strike than there used to be. you don't even have to have everyone on strike to entirely shutter the auto industry in the united states. >> it certainly has an impact on the company. i think it's a brilliant strategy. they are implementing it extremely well. >> let's talk about what has to happen here. the auto companies are losing money as this happens. there are effects which is why

the president is getting involved in this thing. the president is doing something different here. he's going to be with the strikers. he's chosen a side on this. he's putting his thumb on the scale. tell me what that means to you. >> for everybody in the labor movement, it means a lot. it's historic, as you know. no president has ever been on a picket line while serving a term of office. it's a very exciting. it needs to be followed up by policy initiatives. if we want competitive manufacturing, we need a legislation. we need medicare for all. we are really happy that the whole labor movement is excited about the president coming to the picket line. >> one of the things we saw in the teamsters proposed strike against uaw which ended up with them getting many of the concessions that they actually wanted was these larger than expected requests for wage

increases. when confronted with that, the teamsters said, that's what the bosses and ceos get. take a look at what the executiveshave received over a series of years. those executives are coming back and saying, we, that's not really all my salary. my salary isonly part of that. it's only a couple million dollars. the $27 million extra's performance bonuses. i don't know how that goes over with the average union worker. that is not how it works for people who build cars. >> you are absolutely right. people either laugh at it or get really angry about it. they are trying to recoup what they gave in sacrifices to save these companies. these would not have these astronomical profit abilities if it was not for the sacrifice of the workers. i don't think these are huge

demands. they are just about recouping what's workers have lost. the manufacturing cost of the vehicle, only 5% of that, 7% of that was labor costs. these companies can more than afford to do what the -- why was the president a good president, a great president? why is he doing such a great job? he is saying what the membership is saying. it's not the reverse. he is echoing their anger, their frustration, their demand for decent standards of living. i it's an extremely profitable industry. >> sean said something interesting. i don't know where the conversation was. if someone tells me one more time, i want to live to fight another day, let's let this go, take the deal you can get, and the strike so you don't have layoffs and live to fight another day, he said that this is today.

i talked to a union leader yesterday, lindsey dougherty, who said you fight another day so you take one on the chin and they beat you again on the chin the next time and then they beat you again on the chin. at some, point we have to say this is the time. this is the time for us to share in the spoils that you have all enjoyed for these last several years. >> that's absolutely right. >>i have spent five or six hours on the picket line. i have talked to hundreds and hundreds of workers. they are all saying that. this is our time. we have suffered with low wages. i've talked to temporary people, a member who was on temporary for six years with these extremely profitable cooperations. that's just criminal to me. you can't be more immoral than to treat workers like that. workers are definitely saying this is our time. what hopefully comes together quickly, whether it comes

together quickly or not, i am so proud of these workers. they are going to be there for the fight for however long it takes to get the contract they deserve. >> however, right now, an interesting thing has happened since the 80s. we saw that in 1981 on labor unions, starting with the firing of the air traffic controllers. we are seeing increasing numbers, not just for labor unions but for the specific work stoppage is underway. there was support for the u.p.s. strike which did not happen. their support for the american airlines strike which has not happened. their support for wga. as a former union leader, as a leader yourself, do you worry about extended strikes and her they have an impact? the auto strike affects fferently. >> my view, i think this is the american public.

we are sick and tired of these corporations being so wealthy. the top ceos get these astronomical bonuses and pay. people are sick and tired of it. that is 75% -- i think the uaw communications team has done a fantastic job of doing the public understand why this is a fight for them. every single facebook live, i've seen the president talking about not just a fight for uaw members but a fight for all workers in america. i think that is why there is such broad public support. the american public understands that this is a fight to raise all workers. >> bob, you are a university lecturer. there is a reason why companies don't want to listen to the rationale. if they would give a little, and u.p.s. did, by the way, the seal was broken in that u.p.s. agreed that teamsters deserve

what would look like a disproportionate hike. we have that kind of money. we do give it to our senior executives. there is a real reason why corporate america does not want this to be the reality. the idea is that we depend on paying workers as absolutely little as we can to cause them to not leave their jobs. that is the way america has operated. it operated that way right after slavery ended. we pay as little as we can to keep people in their jobs. we outsource them if we can. this is a sea change. if the uaw gets the 30 plus points it's looking for, it changes the game before every worker in america. >> absolutely right. absolutely right. they don't -- it's about, are we going to have a better balance of wealth? are they going to have a better balance of country? how are we going to have a democracy? all of that is on the line here. if workers are in poverty,

abject poverty, if workers are being exploited, you don't really have a democracy in my view. they are active in the political system. workers are in poverty who have to work two or three or four jobs, it's hard for them to vote, to participate in democracy. there is a lot on the line with these fights both with the teamsters are taking on, what uaw is taking, on the rioters, people across america are fed up. they want a fairer country in a fairer society. >> you were talking about the president coming in, the sitting president. you also had donald trump on wednesday dodging his own debate. he's here for the workers of america and the uaw. he's giving a speech to that. your thoughts? >> we have seen this before. in the last election, he went down. i'm still angry about this. he told those workers, don't

sell your homes. don't move. i'm going to save this. he didn't lift a baby finger. he's done nothing to help workers. he hasn't been there for us. even when workers try to organize at his own casino, he fought them. he exploited workers to the greatest tent. he's not a friend of workers. >> thank you for taking time to join us. we will continue to follow this strike very closely. coming up, the resurgent labor movement is about the workers, the american workers who are fighting for their fair share. you're going to hear my conversation with jim rohan, ember of the united auto workers union for four decades. for him, the uaw's family in the figurative and literal sense. plus, florida governor and republican candidate ron desantis has some very bad advice for the people of florida. do not get a covid booster! with covid surging again, those

words could have deadlier consequences. chicago is sinking literally. i will tell you about that on the other side. you are watching velshi. the other side you are watching velshi. you are watching velshi. ♪♪ we're not writers, but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help keep your information secure. ♪♪ we're not architects, but we help build stronger communities. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪ travis, did you know you can get this season's covid-19 shot when you get your flu shot? huh. two things at once. two things at once! ♪ two things at once. i'll have the... ...two things at once, please. now back to two things at once. ♪

two things at once. that's not two things at once. moooom! travis? ask about getting this season's covid-19 shot when getting your flu shot. contract negotiations between the united auto workers, the big three u.s. auto companies are in flux. while most of the striking united auto workers are proud to be on the picket lines fighting for their fair share, it does not mean that is easy. whether you are on the picket lines are working on a contract, these workers face uncertainty and financial hardship. some of the companies have threatened, or started laying off people. last, night i spoke to jim roe, he has been in the auto business for nearly 40 years, who are southeast alanis plant in toledo ohio, he's currently on strike. >> this is the day. we are in the fight. we are not quitting we are

going to fight till the end. we are going to have a lot of solidarity -- and community leaders, and you have just seen the throughout the united states, the republicans with. us people across the united states are realizing that there is a middle class and we have to support the middle class to keep it that way. there is no billionaire class and no class. the middle class is the united states away. and, that is what the uaw and the unions are all about. supporting middle class, and family, and keeping wages to where we can support each other. >> jim, what is it you do by the way as an auto worker? >> i was a union rep for 16 years back in the plant. i am actually audited wrangler

jeep, i've been there for -- and it has been good to me. we have given up a lot in the 39 years. this is our day. >> how do you feel being out on the line right now? it has to be scary right? your income is on the line, we know layoffs of begun, employers who strikes as a reason to lay people off because of production stops. how do you feel about all of this? >> it is scary. it is, you know, i have a daughter that works, there and she is a single female. and, it is scary. and with the solidarity between everyone here in toledo, it is very uplifting. the community is behind us, with the community leaders are behind us, and everyone is helping. >> all right, coming up, florida governor ron desantis has some very bad advice for the people of his state. do not go get the covid booster.

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republican presidential candidate ron desantis as once again belittling scientists in the well-being of floridians by refuting fda guidance and residents over the 65 not to get the newly approved covid booster shots. desantis who has made money false claims about the covid-19

vaccine before said he would not stand by and let the fda and cdc use healthy floridians as guinea pigs for new boosters. now this latest assemblage of lies came before new cdc that are came in. it showed florida ranked get, this number one in the country for corus related hospitalizations. new report said about 2280 people in florida were hospitalized for covid related health issues over the course of the week. now those numbers are of course much less severe than we saw the height of the pandemic, when the state was shattering nationwide records during the summer of 2021, with more than 10,000 hospitalizations. but it is still a significant uptake. doctor anthony fauci joined my friend and colleague the street, and explain why it is important to continue to get covid boosters, and take other precautions. >> it hasn't gone away, and i think they have to be the distinction of looking at it as -- almost tsunami type crisis that

we saw in the early years. so what we are seeing now is an uptick in cases, not way up, but enough to tell us that we are not finished with this virus. >> in other words, we are thankfully not living in the tsunami stage of the covid crisis, anymore but still not free of it either. while florida leads the nation in covid hospitalizations, governor ron desantis -- known vaccine conspiracy theorist he appointed as the state surgeon general are advising residents in their state not to worry about getting vaccinated. that kind of advice is just dangerous. in a new op-ed for the los angeles times, the vaccine expert dr. peter hotez poses a very important question about the way we continue to approach safety, quote, partisan politics is not the only factor driving vaccine disinformation. this aspect has become the most -- lethal, it is also uncomfortable to discuss. i was taught that science and politics do not mix, and we scientists need to be neutral.

when that happens, what happens when the dad overwhelmingly demonstrate the thousands of americans died from political targeting, and quote. political targeting. joining me now is the aforementioned dr. peter hotez, the co director of the texas children's hospital -- deadly rise of anti-science. a scientist warning. here's a man with who we have been speaking with literally from the first week i heard the term covid. dr. hotez, good to see you, again thank you for being with us. there is a remarkable story already this week about the confluence of what you have experienced for decades, this sort of anti vax cringe movement that has always been around. in the mainstream of politics, as you have written about, in the l.a. times, and how much more dangerous that actually is. why has this happened? >> yes, this is really fascinating, ali, the

anti-vaccine movement, and other aspects going up against science have been adopted by the extreme elements of the gop. there is no other way to phrase it. that is why it is not a coincidence that governor desantis and his surgeon general are giving false information about covid vaccines. he is not the only one, it is coming out of the members of the house freedom caucus. you have marjorie taylor greene -- musing not see paramilitary analogies. other members of the house freedom ron johnson hold vaccine injury round tables, and this kind of stuff. then you had it amplified every night on fox news, as was documented by two groups media matters, and -- university out in switzerland. documented how assuring the awful delta wave, when vaccines were widely available, 90% protective against severe on this and, death there was this pilot out to mostly americans

and red states, red counties, red leaning -- not to get vaccinated. thousands of people pay for it with their lives. ultimately, that is what we talk about, or why i talk about, it because i'm a vaccine scientist. now there is a do no mention to, this is trying to defend vaccines. 200,000 americans, now 200,000 americans needlessly parish because they refused a covid vaccine during that delta be a one wave. it was not misinformation, it was not random junk on the internet, it was political targeting and heartbreaking. >> here's the thing, when you hear these people who have been arguing against getting the vaccine, there is no actual argument. they are not making the argument. it has become a form of resistance against the state. a form of resistance against a paternalistic government. the concept of mandates as what they're actually objecting to. ron desantis and his vaccine -- surgeon general could have just said we, are not making this mandatory, it is up to you.

they went much farther than that. the actual went into the idea that the cdc tells you, you should do it, perhaps you shouldn't. >> yes, it is incredibly audacious, right? the idea that the florida state health department knows more than the national center for immunization and respiratory diseases and center for disease control, and the center for biological evaluation research and fda -- premier vaccine science agencies, it is incredibly audacious. it is wrong. it is absolutely wrong. you need that booster in order to keep protective virus neutralizing antibodies against these new variants that are now circulating, and as tony fauci in your intro pointed, out the number of cases and hospitalizations has been going up over the last few weeks. so it is not just having theoretical arguments about mandates, it is falsely discrediting the effectiveness and safety of vaccines, and

convincing people to put their lives in danger. they did that very effectively to the tune of 200,000 unnecessary american deaths overwhelmingly in red states, and red counties documented by multiple sources. >> how much -- because there is an argument i read this week that said, after people did like i did, you try and get your appointment for the vaccine, your booster, and you realize this is the most important thing to try and stop you from getting covid, or at least more serious form of covid, then the delta wave hit again. the article postulate it that the fact that people were not vaccinated, and then covid came back for another round, caused people to have less faith in the argument that they should all be vaccinated. do you believe that? >> well, in the case of the delta wave, there was still millions of americans who were refusing to take a covid vaccine, any dose out of political allegiance.

now what you are seeing is a sligly different, in addition to, that what you're seeing is we are not getting a good job convincing americans to take the boosters, fewer than 20% of americans got their bivalent booster last year for some of the additional omicron waves. who knows what percentage it is going to take this annual immunization, i certainly didn't, but it has been a tough sell. so we are seeing that weaponize south communication extend to all regions of american political life and -- we have got to do a better job of convincing americans to take this new annual immunization. we will see what happens. >> so, i take my advice from, you i obviously, have so you -- for five years or, now you recommend there is no good counter reason not to that they should get their booster -- >> yes, we they are calling it an annual immunization, not booster. i don't really much care about the difference in language.

but, ali, last saturday i was at a conference in washington d.c., i got a notification that the booster was available at one of the cvs pharmacies in washington d.c.. i was first in line. i went and got it. that is what i am recommending for him to do as well. >> dr. peter hotez, thank you very much for being here. >> thank you. >> co director of the texas children's hospital center for vaccine development, the author of the important book the deadly rise of anti scientists, a scientist warning. still ahead, sinking cities, we are heading to chicago next. on a hard seltzer budget... wayfair's got just what you need! what... y'all this is nice. salad plates? kelly clarkson? i'm fancy now! i have always wanted statement lighting. get nice things at nice prices at wayfair! ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪

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told you that part of one of the country's most populous cities is sinking? shocking new study conducted by northwestern university revealed that portions of chicago's downtown area are doing just that due to a phenomenon called underground climate change. it is destroying the city's infrastructure. nbc news correspondent maura barrett has more. >> beneath chicago's iconic architecture, living labs are tracking how heat could make a city think. >> they are measuring temperature in underground environments, to basically monitor the amount of heat that are constantly rejected on the ground. >> hundreds of these sensors are giving us a new look into what researchers are calling, a silent hazard. >> we found out that chicago, as many other major global

cities, is affected by a phenomenon called underground climate change. >> professor alessandro and his northwestern research team installed the centrist beneath the service, in parking garages, tunnels, and basement boiler rooms. they found temperature variations are causing significant stress in the infrastructure that supports the city skyline. >> for chicago, the worst is, happening in the sense there is already a significant amount of heat beneath our feet, and this heat has caused the ground to deform. >> their study highlights that this element of climate change is different than what we see above ground, and poses a risk for the foundation of urban cities globally. researchers say more heat trapped in the ground has serious potential to interrupt our day today. top concerns are public health, the safety of the buildings we work in and visit, and how it could slow down your daily commute. it is why transportation secretary pete buttigieg says projects to mitigate this new climate challenge need to be happening now. >> is there a sense of how fast source energy officials to mitigate this issue? >> some of it is federally

funded, we are partnering with states on this. it is down to the type of cement, or steal, or asphalt they are using, for the 21st century, it needs to look a little different than what we learn to build 100 years ago. >> it will take investment, but the underground heat found here being repurposed as a thermal energy source for the buildings above. >> there is a technology under spaces to do that -- >> because this problem is bigger than just chicago? >> it is the consequence of human presence on earth. >> nbc news, chicago. >> and one prominent republican think tank has plans for the government, including doing away with checks and balance system, that should scare every american. we have details on that ahead. s on that ahead. huh. two things at once. two things at once! ♪ two things at once. i'll have the... ...two things at once, please.

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up to be a consequential week for donald trump in one of the federal cases he is, facing as well as force come of his codefendants in georgia. the president has until tomorrow to respond to the special counsel's request for a gag order in his election interference case. now you may recall over we can, go jack smith asked for a narrow gag order against trump, prohibiting him from -- anyone involved in the legal proceeding. then on tuesday, the legal focus will turn on the criminal exposure, to one of the several criminal cases he is, facing when the judge presiding over

the new york attorney general spot case rules on motion that could either narrow, or even throw out that case. also on, tuesday we are expecting a hearing in georgia regarding fulton county d.a. fani willis's request to keep potential jurors identity secret in the upcoming trial of trump's codefendants. kenneth chesebro and sidney powell are said to stand trial next month, both of whom have until wednesday to file any pre trial motions. a lot to get to, here i'm joined by two of msnbc's final legal -- litigator and melissa redmon who is a former deputy district attorney in fulton county georgia. welcome to both of you. thank you for being with us. let me start with you, i had talked to somebody else do you take exception to characterizing what jack smith has asked for as a gag order. he is asking for, and i think it is really important to make sure that in jack smith's indictment of donald trump, he makes clear on a second that donald trump has first amendment rights to deny the election, to lie about the

election, to pursue any remedies that he wanted to pursue to change or make sure the outcome of the election was what he thought it would be. so jacks mitt seems to be very clear on the fact that anything he says, that donald trump should or should, into donald trump is going to cry foul saying he is violating his -- gag order request. >> yes, first, well and one of the people who would probably -- describe what is happening here is an effort to restrain trump and his legal team speech only in so far as to pose a danger to people who are participants in the process, literally, their physical security and safety, and or endangers the integrity of the process. beyond, that as jack smith is an indictment, itself everything else is fair, game especially because donald trump is a political actor who has speech rights. where i think it gets a little bit sticky is some of the comments trump has made that jack smith takes exception to. for example, describing the

people of washington d.c. as having particular proclivities or bases. those are the people who formulate the jury pool here. and, if trump is not allowed to talk about anybody who lives in washington d.c., you can see how we get close to an intersection of first amendment rights, pumping up against what is necessary for the integrity of the process. >> so melissa, several issues, now let's say donald, trump lost to jack smith even gets what he is asking, for now donald trump and stop saying something that either has to be discussed in court because donald trump will say, i did not breach the order. jack smith will say he does. maybe he gets a fine. maybe he does not get a fine. maybe he gets a second, five maybe he does not pay the fine. no judge really wants to be involved in this, right? no judge wants to send a share for martial to arrest donald trump because he betrayed this gag order, or whatever it is. so, the enforcement of this whole thing becomes a problem unto itself. >> that is exactly right.

not only did it define what is meant by harassing and intimidating speech when he makes comments, then there is going to be whether or not there actually violated the order. then, the judge has to decide what to do about it. and, issue really going to find, him issue going to hold him in contempt, put him in custody, that is highly unlikely to happen. so not only in policing his speech, but deciding what to do about it will be a major issue. i anticipate that she will follow through on the warning of the trial of trump deftly indicated he does not want, rather delay this trial. so i think that will probably be the remedy she goes with, and the back and forth of whether or not that order is issued or violated. >> that is an interesting, point because she did say that on which the day she was remanded. she said the one way i can call this is make this a speedier trial so you have less time to pollute the environment. this is not unrelated, lisa, to what fani willis is asking for

in georgia, in which she is asking for secrecy of the jurors to be maintained. in part, because it has to be hell to be a juror in one of these cases. you are not just subject to potential actual witness intimidation by the people who are indicted, or unindicted coconspirators, but possibly by millions of other people in the country. all donald trump or his -- have to do is make a speech and say this has been done before. >> this is an area that i'm interested in, and melissa was say as a fulton county prosecutor, because intuitively, it makes a lot of sense. when you get into the details on the other hand, there are some real problems with it, because of its potential -- it is okay for example to say you cannot sure the jurors faces, you can name the names, but the -- one in which the public has an interest to. it matters to people like me what the composition of the jury's. we aing to assess whether this is a jury of donald trump and others peers like as bro

and powell. so there are teristics that are part of that selection process like race, geer age, occupation, even employer. that might be -- to the media in covering this trial and giving the public access that they deserve, on the other hand fani willis in her application is essentially asking for all those identifying criteria to also be held secret. so i'm expecting the judge mcafee to carve out an order that is somewhat between the two, so that people like you and me can have access to this trial, and a report, honor and explain it to our viewers, without any context whatsoever for who is sitting on this jury, and on the same time protecting them from the harassment we know fani willis herself and her team are faced. >> melissa, i definitely want your response on that. however, we have some bills to pay, so i would ask you both to hang out there for a second. we will continue this conversation after a quick break. we will come back as melissa has some stuff to say about this. this

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lisa redmond, i want to get back into, it melissa i'm sorry you are not here with us in the studio, because lisa just laid out a lot of reasons why there is a reasonable public interest in knowing at least the formation, what the jury is constituted of. i don't necessarily need to know their names, where they, work their identities. so there may be some way of splitting on this. what is your thought? >> i agree. i believe that judge mcafee will carve out whether what is available for the public to know, who will be those individuals making this decision, without knowing their identities. we don't need to know their names, we don't need to know what they look like. we can gauge their demographics and publish that, male versus female, the racial composition of the jury. that of course we will want to know.

but where they work, we don't need to know. maybe we want to know what type of work they do, whether you have -- highly educated individuals, whether you have blue color workers, that type of information. i think based on what we have seen, the high profile cases before, we have had concerns about jurors identities, there is a way for the judge to carve out what should be publicly available, while protecting those individual identities. we don't need to know specifically who they, are where there, live where they work, that type of information. >> let's move on to this issue of sydney powell and what are we calling now, chesbrough outing their cases separate. just bro has put forth a list of 52 potential witnesses. what is happening here? for people like me who don't understand how these things work all that well, are they going to have the entire case as they have these two people starting on october 23rd, the same case we will see against the other defendants and donald trump?

>> that is what fani willis and her team have said. they have said in open court, they have 150 witnesses, it will take four months to try, and it will be the same case for the prosecution, regardless of how many defendants there are. of course on the defense side, that is different. right? can -- >> they just want their case. >> they want their case, and they want to display responsibility for the other aspects of the r.i.c.o. charges, and say it is over broad, and brings them into a conspiracy with people that they never knew, never could see, never knew about. so i think they are going to want to keep the focus on the allegations specifically against them. you are right to, say there are 52 people on this list. does one person need 52 witnesses? my guess is that is an overrepresentation of who can chesbrough will call a trial, as the same time as anyone who is not on that list is likely to be a witness for ken chesebro on trial. looking at that list, i see names that made me think for myself, why would countries bro think that person is going to be an effective witness for him?

now, -- some criminal exposure of his, own has never been named, but what makes ken chesbrough that epstein is not going to take the fifth if called as a witness in kansas bro and sidney powell's -- >> the total list of what might >> melissa, i heard a prosecutor told me last night this is a great idea that it is actually as fani willis, a great, idea he says as a prosecutor in georgia you used to like it if they got to do a trial run case before the main case. then, everybody could see his loaded for bear and you might not want to make a deal or do something else. what is your thought? >> absolutely. that is assuming it goes well for the state. so you want to put forth your strongest case. of course the defense is going to want to confine the conspiracies in question. we've seen indictment, there are about eight different types of conspiracies all in front of

this -- chesebro and powell we want to confine their case to those that relate to their action. the case is going to want to put on the whole case, and educate the jury and the public. a very public trial about the strength of the, case and prove that the entirety of the conspiracy. absolutely, he will want, assuming it all goes, well all the evidence comes about, to further defend that they can prove beyond reasonable doubt that all of these individuals engaged in this illegal conduct, and we can prove it. we prove it in these two cases. i do expect it to be successful, you will see some defendants having a decision of what about risk, what are my benefits, do i want to get out of this while i can? >> i have so many more questions. i have so many more questions. we are out of time. look at that clock. -- melissa redmon is a former deputy district attorney in fulton county georgia, both are msnbc legal analyst. if you want to catch up on all four indictments against donald trump, you can. i have a hand in first, time

trump indictment, at the 91 criminal counts against the former president of the united states is out tomorrow. it contains all charging documents against trump, and his codefendants. they are complete and unabridged. it was introduced by me and it comes out more. you can grab your copies wherever you get your books. still ahead one conservative think tank has alarming plans for 2025, including doing away with a pillar of our government. checks and balances. plus, ukrainian president zelenskyy is or that the u.n. and capitol this week are a stark reminder that the war in ukraine is nowhere near over. another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning, it is sunday september the 20, fourth i'm ali velshi, we begin this morning with america at crossroads. that's international an east, and confident in our system of justice and -- several places that whilst.

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