trump indictment, at the 91 criminal counts against the former president of the united states is out tomorrow. it contains all charging documents against trump, and his codefendants. they are complete and unabridged. it was introduced by me and it comes out more. you can grab your copies wherever you get your books. still ahead one conservative think tank has alarming plans for 2025, including doing away with a pillar of our government. checks and balances. plus, ukrainian president zelenskyy is or that the u.n. and capitol this week are a stark reminder that the war in ukraine is nowhere near over. another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning, it is sunday september the 20, fourth i'm ali velshi, we begin this morning with america at crossroads. that's international an east, and confident in our system of justice and -- several places that whilst. capitol hill, where the

republicans are mired in a fight with one another that has set us on the path towards a devastating government shutdown that is now just six days away. a small group of house republican extremists are continuing to hold up any sort of meaningful action on the matter with their refusal to even consider a short term funding bill, known as a continuing resolution. that is a measure that could realistically be brought to the floor of congress over the next few days before the funding runs out next saturday at midnight. instead, republican holdouts want to consider each appropriations bill separately. a more time consuming an extensive process that would definitely take more than a week. ahead of a call with republicans yesterday afternoon, speaker mccarthy expressed a bit of hope, telling reporters what he thinks when it gets down to crunch, time the holdouts will, quote hopefully move off. a few hours later, however the louisiana congressman -- this man here and ally who wasn't struggled in the debt ceiling negotiations a few months back had tougher words

to share. he compared the holdouts to arsonist who burn their own houses down, then want credit for putting the fire out. he had a quote anyone who says we are going to finish all 12 appropriation bills between now and next saturday is absolutely hallucinating. those are his words. in short, not much progress has been made since speaker mccarthy sent members home on thursday afternoon after it became evident that his conference had reached an impasse. this is just the latest incidents of discontent among the republican ranks in what is turning out to be a turbulent session of congress. speaker mccarthy and the vast majority of house republicans have failed to pacify a small but loud group of hardheaded far-right republicans, although it is doubtful anything could actually pacify that group since their only discernible strategy is chaos. in fact, the speaker has already caved into a number of their demands, including opening an impeachment inquiry into president biden, which is an effort rooted in the politics of, revenge and

grievance, of the former president donald trump. the twice impeached multi indicted former president remains the front-runner for the republican presidential nomination, despite the multitude of legal problems that he faces including the 91 criminal counts for which he has been charged. trump is said to be the defendant in multiple trials as you know over the coming year, including a civil trial against him and his company brought by new york state attorney general letitia james which has been scheduled for october 2nd but may get the lead. trump's campaign for the presidency this time around is also triggeng a constitutional cris sorts. various election officials, scholars, legal entities try to determine if he is even constitutionally eligible to run for president. but to emphasize his confidence in securing the republican nomination, trump and his campaign have already begun to pivot to the general election. he will be skipping the next republican primary debate which will be held at the ronald reagan library in california this coming wednesday, instead donald trump is going to rally

in detroit. a calculated move as he tries to cultivate support from autoworkers in the area. some of whom have already been on strike for the past few weeks. this weekend, they extended the strike from -- 30 warehouses across 20 states as the summer of strikes officially extends into the fall season. it is not the only strike going on. the writers guild of america is now on day 146 of its strike. despite some news of progress in the last couple of days, no deal has been reached yet. the has also been on strike for months now, which is all but put a stop to most of the film and television production in america. the united auto workers strike has the potential to cause the most widespread disruption to american lives and the entire auto industry north america if it isn't resolved quickly. the uaw has already heard the sport of president biden who will be traveling to michigan this week, and he says he will quote join the picket line, and stand in solidarity with the men and women of the uaw, as

they fight for a fair share of the value they helped create. joining me now is the democratic congresswoman debbie dingell, syrup isn't the sixth district of michigan which encompasses the studies of -- where to general motors warehouses are located whose workers are now on strike, also the former president of the general motors foundation. congresswoman, good to see, you thank you for being here. i heard you telling -- andrew mitchell that you were not sure that it made sense that joe biden show up at the picket line. tell me, i don't know if i got who you were talking to right, but did i get what you said right? >> well, quite frankly, he is coming. but i do believe that too many people are trying to make this about -- trump versus biden versus what the strike is really about. i do not believe the president belongs at the bargaining

table. i believe that is between the workers, and at the companies. i think the -- president on down, we need to understand what the issues are. help them transition from internal combustion engines, up to electrically echols, and we need to help make sure everybody is listening to each other. it is about the workers. i do think it was a question in not of people were asking, and i think it is great that he is showing his standing with the workers. there is another way to do so, but i think president biden has been trying to do so, stand for workers, so i just think -- >> got it. >> what i really care about is what is happening at the table, and i think that is between the workers and the companies. i think in his tweet, he said it well. the workers need to be paid a fair wage. they are an important part to the backbone of these companies and the economy, and we need to make sure the companies are doing well as well, because if

they will, not we will not have jobs. -- about the workers. >> you are one of the members of congress who follows union and wage issues very closely for obvious reasons. one week earlier this summer, we had this discussion between the potential strike of the teamsters with the uaw, it had a similarity to it. they were asking for what the company thought, were outsized wage increases, and the argument they had is, we take hits when times are tough, the auto industry workers tickets when the industry's times are tough, a they would like to make some of that back, and be, corporate leaders in america make many, many, many times what the average worker in a company makes. what the uaw has said, our corporate leaders in particular have received these sort of outsized gas in the past. it is an interesting argument. you look at the kind of money we have on the screen right now, these bosses make. i dot know, what do you think

of the argument? >> i will come back at you a different way. by the way, if you remember, i warned everybody, u.p.s. and do a w or looking a potential strikes. people say 25%, 30, percent 40% that is a lot of money. but what is it? if you take the ultimate battery plant in ohio, that just gave an interim of 25% raise. it is 25% of $16.50, there are now making $20.50 an hour. they can go to the mcdonald's down the street and make $23. the workers, in 2008, in 2009 when the auto companies all went bankrupt, the workers wanted those jobs. they wanted to support the company. they gave up the cost of living. they haven't had cost of living restored until now. in real wages, they are making less than they made in 2008 and 2009. so they are asking for --

their asking to have cost of living, so that their wages keep up with -- they put you have people working on the line, who have been working the same job with huge salary differential, and employees that are working eight or ten years still as a temporary and not getting benefits. those are things that need to be addressed. >> what do you think is going to happen here? because we were all looking at the potential teamsters uaw strike, i'm sorry teamsters u.p.s. strike and the potential knock on effect. if you pias4 to stop, that would have a major effect on the economy. the auto workers -- and you understand that it is not just the autoworkers and the factories, it was all the knock on effects to the shop that support those workers, the dealers network. what is your sense of this? >> so i have sense since the

beginning, the strike, america is going to quickly be reminded the american auto industry is still the backbone of the american economy. out of every eight jobs in this country, it is impacted by the auto industry. i think this is where the rubber hits the road. too many people go and have this talking point discussion, they handed to them, they don't understand it. those men and women, i talk to them every single weekend when i'm home. i'm in the halls talking to them about how they feel. when i go home thursday morning and in three or four hours, just talking to, them they are people that love ford motor company. one of the guys family has worked for ford for 100 years. but they are feeling the pain. he is working three jobs to be able to support his family the way he used to. so, i hope it is a short strike, i hope we will just have to see what is going to have been. this is a very serious moment, and this is where the rubber

hits the road. >> i want to talk to you about what is going on in congress for a minute, i spoke to your colleague last night, a democratic congressman from pennsylvania, he's on the budget committee, he says we have a new talk talk about, this republicans come on my show and they worry validly about a 33 trillion dollar debt that this country, has but we actually have a process in congress, in which that debt and budget and appropriations can be discussed. there are very few things in the constitution that demand that you and congress, do one of them is get a budget and appropriate funds for it. this is something that kevin mccarthy seems to have some serious trouble doing, because of what a previous small band of holdouts. >> he has a dysfunctional caucus. a number of his republicans are absolutely furious. -- agreed with every word he said. and, if we have a government shutdown, it is going to reflect squarely on speaker kevin mccarthy and his caucus, which is why so many caucus

members are becoming concerned. he can't be -- he is being blackmailed. it is unacceptable. we have six days to the government shutdown, and it affects our national security. so many other different things. we cannot take our government workers for granted, we keep us safe and so many ways. every single way from the sky, to the food we eat, to just everything. and, -- i hope we don't shut down the government. that is going to be another head to our economy as well. we have some real crisis going on this week. it is not going to be a doll week. kevin mccarthy needs to stand up to a small group of people. >> you spent a lot of time in house leadership, the -- democrats will entail him out of the spine? >> well it depends what we are being asked to do. i think none of us want to see the government shutdown. by the way, mitch mcconnell as you know -- what was going to be brought up this week, it was unacceptable. it would cut everything. it would have cut childcare, it

would have cut senior services, it would cut food programs. that is not acceptable. we had tough negotiations, we agreed to things earlier this year when we had to flip the debt ceiling. let's see what comes. i do not want to see a government shutdown, and i will do whatever i can to keep the government, open but i will not do stupid things to destroy this country. >> thank you for joining us, we always appreciate talking to, democratic represent debbie dingell of michigan. still ahead, the gop has big plans for the country, including doing away with something the founding fathers put in place. checks and balances. and ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy has become a global symbol of resilience and strength, the truth is, zelenskyy was at a disadvantage when the war began, and partly thanks to a certain former u.s. president.

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, receive the warmest of welcomes in my hometown of toronto, canada, last week. zelenskyy greeted a crowd of roomful of members of canada's ukrainian community, the largest population of ukrainians outside of ukraine. with slava ukrainians, the salute with which he ends every one of his speeches. it means glory to ukraine. the crowd matched his energy, erupting in songs, singing, as you heard, the ukrainian national anthem. quite the week for zelenskyy, first address the un general

assembly in new york city in his signature army green attire. zelenskyy's first in-person address to the annual gathering since the start of russia's unprovoked war. he did not mince words, he never does. he warned that russia's aggression is not just a threat to his home country, but as he has been saying since day one, it is a threat to the world. the following day, zelenskyy had even stronger words for the u.n. security council, telling the body that it was essentially useless and resolving conflicts as long as russia has veto power, which it does. he said, quote, ukrainian soldiers are doing with their blood with the u.n. security council should do by its voting, veto power in the hands of the aggressors what has pushed the u.n. into deadlock. zelenskyy then traveled to washington, d.c., to lobby american lawmakers for more aid. he faced dozens of republicans who have voiced their opposition to providing more money and weaponry to ukraine. zelenskyy met privately with republican house speaker, kevin mccarthy.

mccarthy denied the leaders request to address the full congress. mccarthy said, quote, we just didn't have time. we just didn't have time. time to hear the man who represents of people fighting for their self determination and their lives, while mccarthy and his caucus of foolish troublemakers fight to figure out their one constitutional responsibility, passing the budget. for his part, i'm sure there is a host of other things zelenskyy would rather be doing seeing as people are actively fighting for their freedom while mccarthy is fighting with a bunch of yahoo is ready to shut down our government. yet, he made the time for mccarthy. i digress, that's a different topic. next up for zelenskyy, the white house, where zelenskyy received friendlier reception from president joe biden, who's been a staunch ally since the beginning of this war. after that meeting, biden announced that an additional 325 million dollar military aid package for ukraine. nbc news also reporting biden told zelenskyy that the u.s. will provide ukraine with a

small number of long-range missiles to aid them in the war with russia. that's a significant victory for zelenskyy who's been asking for these weapons. they're called atacms, for months. it may be difficult to recall today, but at the onset of russia's war on ukraine, some doubted zelenskyy's leadership and his ability to fight for his country. when the war began, his relatively new leader, elected just in 2019. he was a popular actor, he was a comedian, he ran a populist campaign against here is the political corruption and ukraine's government. the election of this young, charismatic leaders electrorheologically for some ukrainians. others didn't think a guy whose main job as being a political satirist was up to taking on vladimir putin in what we thought then was your second strongest army. putin, for his part, a grade. he saw nothing but opportunity in this. so, as the showdown began, ukraine needed its biggest, strongest partner, the united states to step up and gave its full backing to ukraine and its brand-new president. what ukraine got instead was

donald trump. donald trump made that infamous, so-called perfect phone call to zelenskyy in which trump made $400 million in congressionally approved military aid to ukraine, contingent on zelenskyy doing him a favor. the favor was getting dirt on trump's political rival, joe biden, and his family. that perfect phone call got donald trump impeached the first time. it also put zelenskyy at a disadvantage long before the war even began. in that moment, the world needed to see ukraine as a serious player. russia needed to see zelenskyy is the leader, not to be must with. but america, america must with him. now, a year and seven months since russia's invasion, so lewinsky has emerged as a global symbol for self determination. vladimir putin thought his army would crash ukraine in a matter of days. ukraine small but mighty army, under the leadership of volodymyr zelenskyy, has held his own for more than a year and a half, beating everyone's

expectations. ukraine's current counteroffensive is making small yet significant gains against an army of about four times that size. zelenskyy's presence at the u.n., washington, and canada, this week, underscores another important point that the war is not over and victory may still be tenuous it best. zelenskyy is a strong ally in the biden administration right now, the long term viability of that support hinges on the results of next year's u.s. presidential election. al with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. ♪

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president volodymyr zelenskyy is weak in north america, i'm joined by the admiral james. he's the former supreme allied commander at nato. msnbc's chief international security and diplomacy analyst, he's also the author of to risk it all, nine conflicts and the crucible of decision. there's no one else i want to speak to about this because this week sort of puts a lot of things in context. watching zelenskyy here in america, it reminds us that this is not just a war about a country that many people couldn't find on a map two years ago, this is actually a war for democracy and one were struggling with in a different way here in america. >> could not agree more, ali. and we need to only look back at our history here. if you go back, about 100 years

ago, we faced many of these challenges in europe. we saw the rise of fascism in the united states, for a long time in that conflict. how did that turn? oh well, eventually, we were attacked on their home soil at pearl harbor. hitler's germany declared war on us, and we were deeply involved in a mainland war in europe where hundreds of thousands of u.s. casualties occurred. what's different now is that if we stand and deliver, at this moment, our ukrainian allies are the ones who are going to do the fighting. they're gonna bleed, they're gonna die. our job is to give them the weapons systems to stop this awful monster, latimer putin. the stakes could not be higher. >> you commanded nato troops and, you know, for a little while, certainly the trump administration, nato seemed like it was weakening.

it seems like a lot of people in the free world didn't care that much. we had forgotten but all the things that had happened and why nato was formed in the first place, why was expended. now, in a much bigger nato, and expanded nato, a much more serious nato. yet, volodymyr zelenskyy's concern is that the result of that nato in the world has shown will start to weaken. we saw a little that from poland, has been the tip of the spear of this thing. we have, who knows weather will be another cold winter, it wasn't last year. that meant the europeans weren't mad at ukrainians about the war. who knows what happens in the next election. donald trump becomes president again or vivek ramaswamy becomes president again? you know, there's a whole bunch of people who don't think this is a serious matter. >> you're absolutely right. you can kind of feel that cracking of support, frankly on both sides of the political spectrum, both here and in europe. people are simply asking the question, is this worth? it is that worth the amount of money and resources that we're

putting into this? ali, the answer overwhelmingly is yes. i'll give you a very concrete argument. so far, the united states has put about 40 billion dollars into this. the europeans, our allies, they've put about 40 billion dollars into it. here's a, 0.40 billion dollars for the united states, it's a microscopic part of our defense budget. it's less than 5% of the u.s. annual defense budget. and, yet what are we getting for that money? we've destroyed half of vladimir putin's armies, his equipment, his air force, his black sea fleet, the flagship of which is at the bottom of the black sea. this is bargain basement use of our military resources to destroy a threat. and with this, what vladimir putin has done, not to point a phrase, it's make nato great again. he really has.

that specifically means the addition of sweden and finland to superb turnkey militaries have joined the alliance, nato has never been stronger. i think the center will hold on this. we need to look to washington post, pressure, particularly on the right wing of the republican party, and shame on the speaker of the house for not standing in meeting with volodymyr zelenskyy, at least mitch mcconnell on the senate side did. this chaos caucus in the house is bound to hurt national security. >> yeah, that's where the rubber hits the road because this is a national security matter for us, not just for ukraine. ukraine is doing a lot of dirty work that the rest of the world is enough to do because they've actually got soldiers on the front lines with that russian army. admiral, good to see you, as always. thanks always for your advice and your guidance, your analysis. admiral james as the former supreme allied commander at

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- when talking about life skills, what's more important than reading? yet barely a quarter of kids read every day. so do your part by reading with your kids or starting a family book club, because every little bit helps. >> are you a member of the the more you know. velshi banned book club? if, not it's time to join. new episodes of the velshi banned book club are available every thursday. scan the qr could on your

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(sean) i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro! voya. (jason)anned. sean! do you mean this one - the one with titanium? switch to verizon, you can trade in any iphone, and get the new iphone 15 pro on them. (vo) trade in any iphone in any condition for a new iphone 15 pro on us. only on verizon. >> when ronald reagan won the

presidency in 1980, a budding political research group and think tank called the heritage foundation independently published a plan to produce some more conservative ideology back into the white house. it was called the mandate for leadership. it was a big game myth. 20 volumes, 3000 pages, literally thousands of ideas laid out for the incoming reagan administration to simply adopt. a distilled version was published as a book. the heritage foundation gave a copy to every member of congress, so, in the book became a bestseller nationwide. the washington post wrote this in 1980, quote, the heritage foundation, conservative washington research group, today proposed an action plan for slowing the government to the right as fast as possible. it's clearly a hope chest of the mainstream right-wing, predictably coming down hardest

on environmentalists and on minority programs, restrictions on the military, and intelligence communities, and free enterprise. that was 43 years ago, 1980. in the washington post. the heritage foundation estimates within a year of handing over its very first mandate for leadership, the reagan administration had implemented 60% of their 2000-plus proposals. over the next 40 years, the heritage foundation will put out an updated version of that mandate every so often. they each had a market impact on republican priorities. the washington post notes that the heritage foundation's long held significant sway over the republican party. for decades it is the only outside group with access to weekly meetings of the republican study committee, which is the largest republican caucus. heritage in their mandates have always had a conservative tilt, but previous iterations of the mandate had elements that found bipartisan support. friends dance, one recommendation lay the groundwork for the mandatory by in of universal health care

framework that is obamacare. the heritage foundation and its comprehensive government agenda have become more conservative over the years and more extreme. this year, the heritage foundation published the ninth iteration of the mandate for leadership. it's called project 2025, the conservative promise. and surprisingly, it targets lgbtq rights, equating any talk of gender or sexuality with pornography and pedophilia. abortion rights emphasizing the, quote, rights of the unborn. it looks to ban critical race theory and gender ideology, so-called environmental extremism from schools nationwide. recommends barring discussions of terms including gender equality, reproductive health, and reproductive rights. banning discussion of reproductive rights. now, that is some hands made tail stuff there. it makes recommendations to implement so-called christian biblically based ideologies, reform voting, right summit ration, and more, in a

countries whose first amendment to its constitutions as, quote, congress shall make no law representing an establishment of religion, and quote. these are just the expected conservative talking points. project 2025 goes further. it looks to dismantle what it calls the deep state, the administrative state, the defunded parchment of justice, ensure white house control of the doj. i want to take on the fbi, the department of homeland security, it wants to eliminate the department of education, commerce, health and human services, it aims to put federal agencies like the federal communications commission and the federal trade commission under direct presidential control. project 2025 also relies heavily on the reagan era unitary executive theory, which is a fringe idea that article two of the constitution, which covers executive powers, gives the president complete control over the executive branch and rejects the idea that the three branches of government should have overlapping checks and balances on power.

you may remember, when trump tried to use this line of reasoning in the speech in 2019, saying, quote, i had the article to, where i have the right to do whatever i want as president. trump, for his part, isn't easy and willing executive the mandate for leadership agenda. many of the suggestions of the mandate are personally beneficial to donald trump, that dismantling the so-called administrative state, the fbi, the judiciary, so fervently claims have been after him since before he was even elected. michael hart, senior correspondent and foreign policy, did a very deep dive on project 2025 for political magazine. in his article, titled inside the next republican revolution he writes that much a project 2025 will be difficult if not impossible to execute. even ahead of heritage implements much of their vision, the conservative movement would need to not only have the presidency but control of both chambers of congress. herschel ports that project 2025 aims to recruit, quote,

conservative warriors to staff the next conservative presidents administration, starting on day one. they're already putting this plan into action, their vetting people, making sure that their records ideologically aligned, their training them. project 2025 is developing 30 video courses, teaching each of the 30 chapters of the mandate. the architects of the project have talked openly about the long term plans of their movement, making it clear that they're thinking three, four, presidential elections down the line. it's in part a training program, one of which the head of the heritage foundation promised will develop experts at killing bureaucracy. while trump is at the forefront of this conservative movement, probably in large part because it complements his personal agenda, it absolutely does not depend on donald trump. already, trump's top competitors, rhonda send this and vikram aswan, we have made attacking the so-called deep state central to their campaigns. michael hers also reported that project 2025 has been in touch

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about the conservative movement called project 2025. michael hirsch writes about in political magazine, quote, project 2025 very likely has a substantial political base, one that isn't going away. argues that decades of poor policy decisions on both sides of the aisleare, quote, creating a deeper anger and resentment over the crushingly on equal society the united states has become, feeding populism, not only on the right, but the left as well, and quote. michael her showings me now is a senior correspondent of foreign policy magazine. the title of that piece he wrote for political magazine's, inside the next republican revolution. also with us as steve bannon,

msnbc political contributor and the producer for the rachel maddow show. we always tell you this, but it's important to remember, steve bannon is the author of the book called, the impostors. how republicans quick opening and seized american politics. and both of your writings, they've come together in a world in which we're in today. michael, notwithstanding the fact that we're days away from a potential government shutdown and a dysfunctional republican party, i want to understand what you meant about the connection between this federalist document that's been around since the reagan era, in updated every so often, and the rise of populism and extremism. what is the connection between the two? >> well, i think that the conservative movement today, much like trump himself, it's drawing on the anger that you're hearing from the rest of the country against the so-called washington and lee. the difference between what they're doing now with project 2025 and what they've done in the past, going back to reagan,

it's that this is a plan to completely overturn the federal bureaucracy. to reinstitute schedule, f something -- last month an office, overturned by biden a few months later, it essentially expand the number of workers in policy making positions that he could hire or fire at his discretion, overcoming, you know, was already legislatively in place to protect them. it's a much more radical plan than we've seen before. it's based on, as you alluded to, this unitary theory which essentially gives the president total control over the federal bureaucracy, even independent agencies. >> steve, you know, the conversation about reagan, i spoke.

two -- yesterday morning, republicans often tell me i'm a reagan republican or lincoln republican. we're gonna put aside the lincoln discussion for moment. let's talk about reagan, reagan starting in 1967, delivered a speech which has led to this chevron deference discussion about the administrative state in which he said, it's time to turn away from the big government of the 30s and 40s, and the 50s. it's time to shrink the size of government, it's the concept of big government is bad, government as intrusive, the worst thing i can hear, i'm here to help you. that's an understandable conservative impulse. as michael writes, it is become something that seems almost sinister nefarious now. once it evolved into, and why does it not seem like a reasonable thing to say, less government might be a good thing? >> well, there's a couple elements to this. i think one thing we can keep in mind is much of the country continues to look at the government is a good thing. a lot of the country wants to see governmental mentioned,

they want to see things like affordable care act, they want to see protections for the environment, they want to see action on climate change. so, when you see it is this impulse on the right to blame government -- want to drive the public to have certain disdain for the government, i think that the odds with what a lot of americans want to see. you mentioned before the break about how the heritage foundation is targeting reproductive rights, wants to make it not even able to talk about abortion rights anymore. i think there is ample public opinion polling that shows that much of the public still highly values reproductive rights and wants to see more of, it not less. so, the attention is going to be a problem, i think, not only for cultural heritage, but for republicans at the line of heritage on this entire initiative. >> michael, you address this in your article, you say heritage foundation executive and others involved in projects when a 25, quote, can see that their assault on the administrative state is not gonna focus on politically delicate entitlement such as social security, medicare, and

medicaid. veteransadministration programs and retirement plans, unemploymentcompensation, agricultural prices support programs, all of which amount to half of the 6.3 trillion dollar federal budget. that is not going to be on the front burner, dan says. first of all, paul dens and the extreme right chaos caucus in the house don't appear to be talking because they don't seem to have the same playbook. it kind of seems inconsistent, right? the heritage foundation once produced administrative state, smaller government on some things, not the things that they know will be politically unpalatable. >> yeah, well, as russell, who's trump's management director, has been tasked with implementing -- an office, he said he lowe's ronald reagan but this is not the 1980s, it's not just a problem of big government, the problem of government that's

been weaponized against us. this fits in perfectly with the trump agenda. ali, it's impossible, it's difficult to overstate just how much trump's agenda has become the republican agenda and vice versa. i would emphasize it's not just heritage and project 2025, you have the american for his policy institute, which is people run by -- trump's former domestic policy chief another former senior trump administration officials. across the board, conservative think tanks, you have a very trumpist agenda, national conservatives, those what they're calling it now. so, it's not just a question of, you know, when he's getting in the polls, how what he's doing there, it's also a question that it is his agenda. >> steve bannon, let's talk about that, this coincides of your, bud? right what we have here in what don bacon told me yesterday, what a number of republicans are saying, they're saying what a lot of frustrated conservatives have been saying about the republican party for a while.

it's a party that has stopped governing. don bacon said, i don't know if these people win. i don't even know if i can call them the far-right, a far-right would assume is an ideology behind this. this chaos caucus is like pigpen, right? it's a bunch of people with dirt flying around them. it does seem like their only goal is chaos. you've written a book about this, when the republican party stopped governing, this doesn't coincide with project 2025. prouder 2025 feels like a resurgence of a new conservative movement that could succeed over the next two or three presidential cycles. that's not what's going on right now. >> right, and i think that's one of the biggest differences between the 2016 cycle in the 2024 cycle. you know, in 2016, donald trump is running for president. his entire agenda was basically a black box. he had no government record to run on, he did have a legislative agenda, he didn't have a platform to speak of. really, when voters are voting for him, they're voting for a vague idea, and biggest platforms, but really no solid

goals in terms of government. well, i think that years later, seven and a half years later, we're looking at a very different landscape. i think we have, what michael describe very accurately as an aggressively ambitious agenda, such as project 2025 initiative. then we have donald trump and his allies aligning themselves with that vision. so, really, when we look in terms of how voters will be approaching the 2024 election before they cast their ballots, now there is no black box, it's an open box. lots of lights shining on, it we know exactly what will get, with a very good idea of how that would affect every individual in americans lives. that dramatic shift really changes the game in terms of public expectations, about how all of us have to approach the 2024 election in the 2025 governing cycle. >> michael, i'm never gonna underestimate the heritage foundation, it's -- whether you like it or not, it's an august organization, it's been around for a long time. how do they reconcile this plan with what's actually happening

right now? because the dysfunctional republican party, as you say, fully intertwined with donald trump. yet, not dependent upon him, it's not what's written in the plan. >> well, it's not. not any of the discussions, so to speak. they clearly have pulled together a plan that, you know, as was just said, to fill the vacuum that existed in the first trump term. they readily admit, look, we didn't know what we're doing. the great deal of what this is about, ali, is correcting the mistakes of the past, going back to raegan, in terms of recreating the entire federal bureaucracy so that it's not liberal and doesn't tend toward liberalism, which paul and many of these other leading figures in this new conservative coalition believe that it is. that's what's behind the presidential academic accommodate and all of the

training videos, everything else they're doing that's new. so, they're really trying to -- if you will. i appreciate the discussion. we could go on for an hour on this. it's an interesting topic. i hope everyone reads the article that you've written, and the book that you've written, steve. michael hirsch is the senior correspondent foreign policy magazine, steve bennett is the producer at the rachel maddow show and the author of an important book about this. that's it for me. thanks for watching. velshi airs every saturday and sunday morning for 10 am noon to noon. next, form secretary of state, hillary clinton, joins jensen. kate don't forget, tomorrow, jen is coming to prime time. you can now watch inside with jen psaki every monday at eight pm eastern. stay tuned, inside with jen psaki begins right now. >> the house is on fire, and the arsonist can't seem to find out why. kevin mccarthy and house republicans in the federal government careening towards a shutdown as donald trump continues to pull the strengths. congressman