training videos, everything else they're doing that's new. so, they're really trying to -- if you will. i appreciate the discussion. we could go on for an hour on this. it's an interesting topic. i hope everyone reads the article that you've written, and the book that you've written, steve. michael hirsch is the senior correspondent foreign policy magazine, steve bennett is the producer at the rachel maddow show and the author of an important book about this. that's it for me. thanks for watching. velshi airs every saturday and sunday morning for 10 am noon to noon. next, form secretary of state, hillary clinton, joins jensen. kate don't forget, tomorrow, jen is coming to prime time. you can now watch inside with jen psaki every monday at eight pm eastern. stay tuned, inside with jen psaki begins right now. >> the house is on fire, and the arsonist can't seem to find out why. kevin mccarthy and house republicans in the federal government careening towards a shutdown as donald trump continues to pull the strengths. congressman eric small has made

a name for himself, calling out the crazy across the aisle. he's coming up first. plus, trump implies that general mark milley should get the death penalty, concerning enough on it don't, even more so when you consider that milley could be a witness in the former presidents trials. also today, rupert murdoch steps aside. i've got a few thoughts about the legacy he leaves behind, in the future of fox news. later, my wide, ranging exclusive interview with hillary clinton. her thoughts on the trump indictments, republicans have ridiculous impeachment inquiry, in the state of the 2024 race for presidents. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> remember back in january when it took 15 rounds of votes over five days for kevin mccarthy to be elected speaker of the house? which, by the, way required selling his soul in the forms of secrets we don't know enough about, to the extreme -- of his party. they're literally has not been a more chaotic start to a

speakership ever. yet, this week, with the house paralyzed and really towards a shutdown, mccarthy seems shocked by the unruly behavior of this caucus. >> this is a whole new concept of individuals who just want to shut the place down. that doesn't work. >> really? it's a whole new concept that certain republicans want to burn the place down? do i have news for you, speaker mccarthy. have you've been sleeping for the last couple years? the building has been on fire for four years. ten years ago, republicans led by ted cruz in the tea party forced a government shutdown. remember that? five years ago, then president trump, by republican house, and a republican senate, they controlled everything, they somehow managed to shut themselves down for a record of 35 days. earlier, mcgill republicans pushed a country to default on its debt. if we really want to talk about burning the whole place down, when the actual capital building was under attack by a

group of insurrectionists, kevin mccarthy and his majority, and the majority of his, party simply waved it off, and pledge loyalty to the architect of that chaos, donald trump. this destructive behavior is anything but new. it's worth remembering in this moment, kevin mccarthy had an off ramp, more than one off ramp out of this mess. have to january six, you couldn't follow through with his plans to tell trump to resign. instead, he backed off. far, far off. all the way down to mar-a-lago to kiss the ring. now, trump is effectively running the house. he's pulling the strings. he knows it. i'll post on truth social, he made pretty clear why he wants to shut the government down. to obstruct the prosecutions against him. for what it's, worth it doesn't quite work that way, but that aside. yes, speaker mccarthy, they want to burn the place down. this is not new. even if trump is pulling the strings behind the curtain, mr. mccarthy, you are the speaker of this house. it is your job to fix it, to put out the fire.

the big question now, less than a week away from a potential government shutdown, is whether you can do the job. joining me now is democratic congressman, thanks so much for joining me. i really want to start with what's happening in the house. how do you explain to people who haven't been tracking this closely, what is going on in the house right now? >> mccarthy is the title that donald trump and marjorie taylor greene, they all share this. the problem is that mccarthy is only worried about his own job, and keeping it, not the jobs of your viewers. the millions who would be affected if we don't pay our troops, border, agents if we don't pay air traffic controllers. mccarthy could simply bring forward the same legislation that senator schuman and mcconnell, and the senate, president biden would, simon to be in, adult and be putting the

country first. we would from the government before funding right now. instead, the house republicans are failures. they are the failures. they failed to govern. because they can't govern, they failed to fund. because they can't find out every core area where we need government, they're going to fail to protect, they're the failures, jen. >> we are just six days away. it's such an important point, the senate has already passed these funding bills, democrats and republicans, do you have any level of confidence we can avoid a shutdown at the end of this week? >> if kevin mccarthy puts the country ahead of his own job, yes. we can do that. by the, way i would like to think that this isn't the only job the guy can get, that if he lost this job, because he did the right, thing he'd be rewarded in the future but he can buy himself a week, another month, but [inaudible]

>> i'm up too optimistic -- we have shown on raising the debt ceiling, and pain americas bills, that if he wants to come to us for votes, we'll be there to deliver the votes. >> there are legislative maneuvers that could force a vote to the floor, involving democrats, and some republicans. do you think that's where we're at? is that a likely possibility at this point? >> unfortunately, it may come to that, jen. that's a discharge petition, a very washington word, but it would require a republican crossing over. some of them have already said that they may be willing to do that. and so on. fighting the government on keeping ukraine in the fight. it looks like that may be kind of a firewall against the chaos that mccarthy and maga republicans can bring to us. >> i want to ask you about donald trump's role here. he obviously has no official role in the house operations, but he is clearly pulling the

strings behind the scenes. he posted on truth social, in part, quote, this is also the last chance to defund these political prosecutions against me and other patriots. that's not how it works. what do you make of his demands, in his role in this chaos? >> donald trump and mccarthy, and the other pro insurrection republicans have never accepted joe biden as the presidents. they tried to run in and insurrection that failed. they voted to acquit the insurrection when we brought forth impeachment proceedings in the house, the senate. many of mccarthy's folks go to the january six prisoners, and visit them, to given comfort in aid. they've never accepted president biden as a legitimate president. this week, even as we are hurdling towards a shutdown, they'll hold impeachment proceedings. this is just a continuation of the insurrection. this is all about just putting donald trump in charge. the house, unfortunately, has become a law firm, with just

one client. donald trump, when, again it's at the expense of american people who have been needs on bringing their health care costs down, bringing their kids safe in school, you know, just a couple, days student loan repayments are going to start back up. people are going to feel the pain there. they need -- instead, all they get from the house republicans as action for one client, and that is, you, know the twice impeached, 91 counts indicted former president. >> you had quite a moment this week at a hearing where attorney general, merrick garland, was testifying. i want to play this moment where you called out your colleague, jim jordan, after he said the attorney general should be held in contempt of congress. you really cut to the core of it here. >> mr. jordan, is about 500 days into a fading his subpoena. about 500 days. if we're going to talk about congress, let's get real.

are you serious that jim jordan, a witness to one of the greatest crimes ever committed in america, a crime or more prosecutions have occurred than any crime committed in america, refuses to help this country, and we're gonna get lectured? it must subpoena compliance? mr. 20, general if you are serious, they are not. you are decent, they are not. you are fair, they are not. >> so, congressman. you kind of punched back, for, billy at the police there. do you think that something the democrats should be doing more up in these hearings? we've seen some of, that that is that part of our strategy, what you want to see from others? >> yes. that's because, you, know nature abhors a vacuum. in a void, republicans will continue to tell lies about president biden, and that is, and, part why i think his approval rating is as low as it is. they tell these lies. we don't punch back hard

enough. we play on our side of the field, rather than there's. on the right-wing media ecosystem, it just reinforces those lies. then they use the low poll numbers to justify why they're going to lean in even more. so i do believe in, ever hearing, we should take what i call a 3d approach. first, immediately discredit them, and jordan, it's easy to discredit, have because he won't honor his own subpoena, to, teabag any of the claims that they're making that are. false don't chase everyone, at them but the substantive ones that i would say preferred the truth, they have to be deep out. then always pivot to what we have to live, right of what we will deliver, you know, and a new majority and house under president biden, and the majority of the senate. describe, it deep, a gun always deliver. i think that plays on their side of the fields, rather than being on our heels, that around. >> that's some good advice. i hope people listen. before i let you go, new jersey

general, bob mendez, was charged with bribery this week. i know you said that you're waiting to see how your new jersey colleagues respond, but governor phil murphy, a majority of the house democrats in new jersey have already called on him to resign. so do you think he should resign? >> he shut. also, i think that it's important that we point out that speaking to merrick garland, that any idea that the department of justice is being weaponized to protect president biden is just nonsense. this is the chairman of the foreign relations committee, one of the most powerful positions and government, and merrick garland is moving, you know, with his department of justice, to indict the senator. this just shows that the rule of law applies to everyone, whether the former president, the current president son, or whether it's a democratic senator. in the same spirit, i would really like to see my republicans who like to get all high and mighty whenever something happens to democrats,

philippe to make these accusations against mark cartilage, call on george santos to resign, he's actually admitted to almost everything that he's been charged with, and to calm clarence thomas to resign, who day after day we've learned more and more about people who have come before the court, who have invested millions in clarence thomas, and his family, and his livelihood. again, this seems like democrats that the only ones who are consistent, and care about the rule of law applies to everyone. again, i hope your viewers, and, voters recognize that what they have to make decisions about who should be in charge. >> congressman, i know from having little kids myself, you have a busy sunday of soccer games and other events ahead. thank you for taking the time. >> pure chaos. thanks,. my pleasure. >> coming, up to trump social media post about mark mill and be considered witness intimidation? plus, less hillary clinton if she believes trump when he says that he would never pardon

himself. later, robert murdaugh might be passing them these potential, assemble it have any impact on the white ring ecosystem he created? we're getting started this hour, stay with us. stay with us business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. tide is busting laundry's biggest myth... that cold water can't clean. cold water, on those stains? ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is busted. turn to cold, with tide.

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posted an attack against the outgoing chairman of the chief of staff. trump called him a woke train wreck. he insinuated that the general should have been executed for treason. trump does a lot of crazy things, delicious pause on that for a moment. the former president of the united states is openly musing about the execution of his former top military advisor. even by trump standards, that is pretty crazy. those threats could have legal implications. it's possible that he could serve as a witness did not one, both cases against trump.

remember in the house investigation into thousand six? senator milley just has to fight to trump state of mind after he lost the election. >> look there is discussion going, on and the president says more, i think look, he says words to the effect of, yeah, we lost. we're going to let that issue go to the next guy. meaning president biden. >> now, we don't know yet if milley will be a witness for the prosecution against trump in the federal elections case, again, he certainly could be. the soil comes as judge check-in weighs whether not to issue a limited gag order on the former presidents. it's kind of hard to believe that threats like those wouldn't have an impact on her decision. joining me now, former acting u.s. solicitor general in the -- don't worry, the law firm has not broken up. andrew weizmann is traveling, but we're thrilled to have him with us today. neil, i want to start there, because mark milley is such a significant figure. so you think haven't watched a lot of us in the past that he is going to be a witness for

the prosecution and the federal election's case? >> i do. i don't think that mr. bones burqas in any position to criticize any member of our military, let alone a war hero, like general milley. it's not clear to me, john, what we saw was a death threat by the way some are portraying it. it is ridiculous when the context is someone who is almost certainly a witness on january six, if not mar-a-lago, if not the colorado case, in which there is already been a protective order filed. so that is one thing. the other, you, know we constitutionalist, we have a limited imagination, local law list presidents, the apache of the worst thing that we imagine. the article that trump is responding to you by jeff goldberg in the atlantic but general milley paints a picture of trump as just plain nuts, and nobody like that should

have in responsibility to launch a nuclear weapon him to destroy the planet. i hope this article spurs discussion, so that no president can do something like this. the article is terrifying, every american should rita. >> i think a lot of national security experts would agree with you, and anyone who reads that excellent article. we're waiting this, week in the, a judge chunk, into, we're waiting for trump's response, from trump's team, and we're waiting for judge chunk him to make a decision about this protective order. how does all of this way into that? his continued threats. >> i mean trump was already on really thin ice before. remember, just champion, from the, start when she brought bottom into court, and had the first meeting with the magistrate, he was warned, you have to stay within the lines. trump, of, course has been pushing those lines dramatically over the past six

weeks. you, know this tweet, i think it's further evidence of that. i've been hoping the judge tank and will call donald trump directly into the court, look at him in the eye and say, you can't do this. this is not the way in a criminal trial can operate. not special, you are a criminal defendant, donald trump. not the president donald trump. >> so we're waiting for this deadline, as we mentioned, for trump's team to kind of respond here. when do you anticipate the argument as they're going to make us they respond to jack smith skateboarder request? >> yeah, a lot of whining about free speech in the first amendments. the first amendment does prevents him from doing some things, but not intimidate witnesses, and interfere with the search for truth. the whole point of a criminal trial is to have a regularized orderly, a specific process, so that people feel comfortable going in telling their stories. as a, said a judge in the

colorado case has entered a protective order just a couple days ago. barring trump from intimidating or threatening witnesses. >> neil katyal, i know you're getting a big award in london, so congratulations for that. thank you for taking the time today. look forward to seeing you again soon. up, next i sedan with hillary clinton for a wide ranging conversation, and i get her take from the trump davis, chaos in the, host of vladimir putin's persistent influence on american politics. later, i've got some things to get off my chest and rupert murdoch's murder from fox news. and what it does mean for the future the network. we're back, after a quick break. break. on your new car? you don't have to take it to the dealer. bring it to safelite. we do more replacements and recalibrations than anyone else. >> customer: thank you so much. >> tech vo: schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ travis, did you know you can get this season's covid-19 shot when you get your flu shot? huh. two things at once. two things at once!

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it bears repeating, a year is kind of an eternity in politics. we still got more than a year to go before the next presidential election. right now, it's very much like worst staring down another matchup between joe biden and

donald trump. the new nbc news poll out today is the latest that biden and trump are virtually tied. it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but despite the fact that we do still have a long ways to go, the polls in those well-documented concerns of joe biden's age have kicked off what has become a tradition for some of the democratic party. the early, panic as my old boss famously coined, it the bed-wetting. how concerned should democrats be? a credible secretary hillary clinton this week at the annual meeting of the clinton global narrative to get her perspective. she had a lot to say about the 2024, raised donald trump, the republican party, and the looming presence of a certain russian leader. >> the polling right now for 2024, for the presidential race, is tight. is that something that surprises, you are worries you? you >> know, it doesn't yet. we're a long way out. i think that there is, you know, a kind of, you, know looking, in a much of the mentality and

voters. oh, who am i going to have to vote? for wait a minute, i'm not happy with. that they're never happy with what the choices are, you know. i've seen that for many years. >> the purple unicorn. the elusive purple uniform. >> exactly. honestly, i think the issues will not be joints for quite some time. i feel good about where the democrats are, and where the president biden, vice president harris are. you, know and i think biden is the what he says this all the time, don't judge me against the almighty, judge mackenzie alternative. i have been very clear and sane, i am for the biden harris ticket because of what they've accomplished. which i value. i think it's making a big difference in helping us shape our future. let me also for them because the alternative is so dangerous. i think people will begin to pay more attention as time goes by. >> when you mentioned the,

takeout you have fought against more sexism and public than anyone, probably. globally, from vladimir putin, two right-wing republicans. the gamut. you, know there has been more, top at least in my time in politics, about questioning whether the vice president should be on the ticket. i know what i think that's about, but i want to know if you think that's about. >> i think it's about a number of things. i think vice presidents are either never thought about, or there are an afterthought. it's a tough position to be, no matter who you are. but i also think that she is the first. she is the first woman, she is the first woman of color, she's the first daughter of immigrants. you could go on down the list. so there will definitely be a lot more scrutiny than as usual for vice president to, i dare, say most people couldn't even name, in the administration's going back to the beginning.

honestly, again, i think that she has done a much better job than she gets credit for. i think she has proven to be a good partner for the presidents, and this is the decision that belongs to the presidents, whoever the president is. i remember when i chose tim kaine to be my running mate. he had been a successful governor, he had been a successful senator. i thought, here is somebody who could literally step into the job. which to me is a very important criteria, but who also, you know, had a great reputation as a colleague, working with people, you know, some people said he's not, does he's not that. but he was my choice. so at the end of the process, it's the presidents choice. i think he made a good choice. you >> vladimir putin has obviously, your friend, your friend of mine, he has indeed interfered in our elections in the past. it's not something, as you

experienced firsthand, is not something we talk about a lot. do you fear that that is something that could be happening for 2024, do you think we should be talking about it more? >> i think we should talk about it more because i don't think despite the deniers, that there is any doubt that he interfered in our election, or that he has interfered in many ways in the internal affairs of other countries, funny political, parties funding, you, no political candidates, buying off, you know, government officials and different places. that is his some opus operandi in the sense that he hates democracy. he particularly hates the west. he especially hates us. he has determined that he can do two things simultaneously. he can try to continue to damage and divide us eternally, and he's quite good at a, and sadly, he has a lot of

apologist, nibblers in our own country. people who either don't see the danger, or dismiss it out of hands, or maybe agree with some of the, you know,. positions he's taken. on certain things, including his barbaric invasion of ukraine. dividing, as sitting and trying to seize territory in such a brutal way, to try to expand his reach, to try to restore the russian empire, if not the former soviet union, that is who he is. is that that four years. part of the reason he worked so hard against me is because he didn't think that he wanted me in the white house. so we are where we are, in part of the challenge is to continue to explain to the american public that, you know, the kind of leader that putin is, this authoritarian dictator who literally kills his opposition,

kills journalists, poisons people who disagree with him, invades other countries, interferes with our election, that is part of the alternative. we have to reject this in this election, we have to reject authoritarianism, we have to reject a kind of creeping fascism almost, people who are really ready to turn over their thinking, their votes to want to be dictators. we can't allow that to proceed. i think that it's fair to say that it's, you know, you have a tough job. you have to talk about what's happening in the news, but you also have to keep peoples eyes on what's right behind the horizon. i fear that it's, you know, the russians improve themselves to be quite adept at interfering, and see if he has a chance, when again. >> another person who skin you've gotten under is donald,

trump of course. who is facing four indictments, as we know. he recently said that he is very unlikely, would be very unlikely that he would attempt to pardon himself. do you believe him? >> i don't believe him on anything, why would i start leaving him on that? you know >> the thing about him, and i'm not the only person who's notice this, is he gauges and what psychologist call projection. whenever he accuses somebody else of doing something, it's almost guaranteed he's doing it himself, or he's already done it. whenever he denies thinking about doing something, or do a net, it's almost guaranteed that he is thinking about, or he's already done it. >> there has now been a date set for the impeachment hearings, so-called. i'll put it in quotes for president biden. there is disagreement in the democratic party but had to deal with this. there's no proof, they're in pursuit of a reason, what do you think they should be doing? >> first of, all i don't know

how they can proceed with an impeachment if they haven't had a vote. maybe i missed it because i've been so busy and see g.i., trying to be positive, and come up with solutions to our problems, which is what i like to think about. i don't know how they're basically blowing off the process. there is no there there. in fact, it seems they know there's no there there. sadly, the speaker of the house is too weak to stand up against the most rapid block of his members, who don't care what the truth of the facts are. they just want to, you know, vehicle to grandstanding, try to cause president biden problems. is not a real threat, it's a terrible bother. more than that, it is a real confession by the republican party. they have no agenda. they have no interest in trying

to bring people together to solve problems. i have said for years, because i was in the senate when i voted for immigration reform, as the majority of the senate, did george w. bush said he would sign, out in the house wouldn't take it up, because they don't want to solution to what's happening on the border. they want a political problem that they can try to use for their own benefit. that is what this is, to, keep, now the base, to over that, is in some parts of our country, all riled up well they make up stuff that has no basis in fact. it is no way to about a great country. the only way they're going to get through this, jen, is why defeating them. you, know people say to me all the, time what can we do? i say, well, you can vote. they say, what else? i say that's the most important thing. that's the. when you get up there, you. about you vote for people who actually want to get things done, don't traffic and, lies, falsehoods divisiveness. that's what you can do to help our country. >> some get out there and vote, some pretty good advice there

from secretary clinton and a wide ranging interview. coming up, as rupert murdoch steps, aside all more on what he created. in the country. then brides, ultimately spent a lot of time to get into false news over the years, discusses what the future looks like. we'll be right back. right back. was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma.

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this country without talking about rupert murdoch. he announced this week that he's retiring from his role as chairman of fox in news corp. even if he never sets but in his office again, he removes himself entirely, which by the, way of oriska of, he's already created those right-wing media ecosystem that will keep functioning long after his departure. over the years, murdaugh core objective has been to make americans fearful of the constant shifting enemy. sometimes the other is someone who dresses differently from the expected norm, sometimes the other is someone who has a different religion or sexual orientation, or gender identity. murdaugh is known that fear cells. particularly fear of specific types of people who don't fit the mold up the heterosexual, white, christian, american. it's been a cynical --

it starts with the war on terror, and the coverage of the iraq war. they have, today anchors and hosts like below reilly, your black eye. singled out muslims with the brewers and innuendo. >> not all. muslims are terrorists but all terrace irma's lambs. >> it's time to have a muslims checkpoint line in americas airports, have muslims -- you better believe it. >> you are muslim, why did you write a book with other christiane they? >> catholics write letters, muslim stab you with letter openers. >> there is no question that there is a muslim problem in the world. >> so if it wasn't clear there, and i think it was pretty clear, and they're trying to tell you that you should be afraid of all muslims. that fearmongering it against the other laid the groundwork for fox to tear down the country's first black president, barack obama, i was there, with conspiracy theories about his

birthplace, his patriotism, and of, course his religion. >> the obama ministration, through all appeasement it apologizes, goes to the crowd for, us constitution second. >> a fist bump? pound? a terrorist fish jab? >> this guy should go back to bernie the tax payer incense to whatever ford pagan he worships. >> barack obama's emotional attachment to the muslim world has hurt the usa. >> so, to recap, if they have you believe that muslims are likely to be terrorists, and they're calling obama a secret muslim, it doesn't take much to connect the dots there. be afraid of muslims, we have heard the president, and of, course don't, forget be afraid of the enemy south of the border. >> our elected officials have allowed our country to be invaded. yeah, i'll say it. and baited. overrun by millions of people

who are gaming the system by fraudulently claiming asylum. >> this is an invasion of our country. >> some people take objection on the call it an of, asian i don't know what else to call. it >> and unrelenting stream of immigration. why? joe biden just said. up to change the racial mix of the country. that's why. >> this brings us to mexico. it is time for all of us to stop going there. >> we have a moral obligation to -- even if it makes our own country poorer and dirtier and, more divided. >> over the years, this list event in these, the sorts of people americans should be very, very afraid of, got very long. so it's no wonder that murdaugh's audience was so receptive to the extreme rhetoric of donald trump when he came on the scene. >> i think is law hates us. when mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. they're bringing drugs, they're

bringing crime, they're rapists. >> women are right at levels that no one has seen before. >> i.s.i.s. is rain the president obama. he is the founder of i.s.i.s.. he's the founder of i.s.i.s.. >> the founder of fisas? it turns out it takes a whole village of murdaugh's executives, producer, st., gross to lay the groundwork for the maga movement. fox news, as this right-wing media juggernaut is so much bigger than just one person. we've seen this over and over. below riley came and went. roger ailes, came in. tucker is gone. now murdaugh is stepping aside. it is hard to imagine the foxes strategy of pumping fear up the other into the homes of millions of americans will change anytime soon. they could put that genie back in the bottle even if they wanted to. no one has done more reporting a fox news that my next guest. that's coming up after a quick break. er a quick break. run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide.

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departure of rupert murdoch and the fox news, there is no one better to talk to that by insult or. he's a special correspondent vanity fair, the author of the upcoming book, a network of lies, the epic saga fox news, donald, trump in the battle for american democracy. thank you for taking the time, i don't know anyone who thinks more buffs on the official journey over the last year. as they gayle. i want to just start with what this means. indeed, what does rupert murdoch's retirement actually look like? is he never coming back into the office, are you kind of alluded to this not be in the season finale. >>, right, listen i do go through a lot of, tylenol a lot of aspirin, but i think it's important to study the right-wing media machine for the reasons you just described before the break. it is vital to understanding how the republican party has become so corrupted, and frankly, so broken, it is in

large part due to the incentives of these television networks. when it comes to report, murdaugh he was moving towards this movement for several years, especially during the pandemic. you could see him letting, go him being less of a leader than before. i think many times people view him as a leader of the republican party, certainly gop lawmakers think that the foxes and charge. actually, they're not in charge, they're a follower. they're not leaving anywhere, that's why there's so much dysfunction, and so much chaos. a lack of leadership. we are personnel, submit it confirms, it's immense what's already happening. i think it indicates that will be less leadership. i think the only thing scarier than average port murdaugh foxes one or no once in charge at all. >> you said that loughlin is more conservatives are taking his place. what does that, mean what impact will that have? >> yeah well, in the rare moments where loughlin has spoken out publicly, for, example in a speech where he had to cry the evil of wokeness, and talked about the evils of

the 16 19 project from the new york times, we get the sense that they shares his father's conservative values, but is more aligned with the movements, more aligned with where the party is today. more aligned with the maga you -- loughlin was rooting for trump to win, while his father has been very critical of trump in private. whether that reflects, you know, on the error, not that very much remains to be seen, but look, when you, know we should not expect any change in the editorial tone or strategy. >> you just alluded to rupert murdoch's kind of evolving view of trump, which i know from read in your coverage, but i don't think a lot of people know about that. tell us more about his evolving views, and kind of what's happened over the last couple of years with fox, in the editorial strategy says release to trump. yeah >> right. rupert simply was not impressed by trump during the presidency. during those four years when trump was in the white house. they were in touch a lot in the, beginning by 2020, the two men

barely spoke. the lia two phone calls in 20, 20 they have not spoken since. rupert is given up on, trumpeters not want to see trump back in the white house as a network of lies, he has, trump really is resigned to trump being the nominee again. in other, words were partisan thinking as much power anymore. yes he floated throng desantis, talk to glenn youngkin, but repeat is resigned to trump being the nominee. that speaks volumes about how much he's lost control of the thank he created. you know, fox news is still the beating heart of the gop, leave but it's having to follow trump around, having to take, you know, orders from trump, essentially. >> you've mentioned this earlier, but you said that the audience programs faulks. what does that mean exactly, in terms of an editorial meeting at fox? how does the audience program what we see on air? >> yeah, i'll give you an example for 2020. i studied all this with the dominion lawsuit. the weekend that biden won the election, the new york police, which were trimmer by war -- he edited an editorial that said get rudy off tv.

rudy is hurting you dame travel. of, course the next day, rudy was on fox news. it was on for weeks, line about dominion, leading to the defamation case, in that amazing settlement. that's the kind of thing that shows that the audiences in charge, did not report, not really laughlin radaki there. let change in the future? maybe. maybe the foxford is going to show more spine. i actually think we saw that earlier this year with the dominion settlement. folks may start to step up and be more involved. so far, it's been, reported, loughlin and a lack of leadership has been the story, you know, the wild card here is what happens with rupert murdoch dies? one day he will pass the, way there will be a power struggle. james, the more liberal, side has a vision for a different fox news, that is much more tethered to reality. all of that is possible down the line, but not that seems in minute. >> more of the succession plot line that we have all been watching. so there is a debate coming up this weekend, just a couple days, brian, what are you watching for with that, given the host of the debate? >> right.

fox is leading the debates for the second time. that does speak to the republican party's relationship with fox. more importantly, the questions that will be, asked are we going to hear questions about substance? is fox going to drag the party back towards a policy based, reality based approach? or, are they going to ask about ufos again? the way they did in the first debate? the questions are telling, even more so than the answer sometimes. it shows where fox thinks the party, is and where it wants the party to be. >> brian, thank you so much for your time today. i'm back with some exciting news after this quick break, we'll be right back. be right back. itanium? switch to verizon, you can trade in any iphone, and get the new iphone 15 pro on them. (vo) trade in any iphone in any condition for a new iphone 15 pro on us. only on verizon.

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but in case you have, and the show is officially expanding to prime time. inside with jen psaki will now wear every monday night at ten pm right before rachael maddow. starting tomorrow. i have to say, i could not be more excited. we have a big show that we're getting ready for tomorrow night's debut. house speaker, nancy pelosi, will join me here on set to talk about the chaos in the house of the looming government shutdown. i'm feeling shull have some thoughts about everything going on across the aisle, and how speaker mccarthy's handle in all of this. we'll have some other special guests, and obviously, no shortage of news to cover. that's tomorrow night at eight pm, right here on msnbc. don't worry, this sunday isn't going anywhere. the sunday show isn't going anywhere, so to say. you can join me sundays at noon,

at 12 pm eastern every week. that does it for me today, be sure to follow the show on twitter, tiktok, instagram. tune in tomorrow night at eight pm, and a reminder you can listen every episode of the show as a podcast for free. we'll see you tomorrow. but stay right where you are, because there is much more news coming right up. coming right up. this, hour one republican says fellow party members are hallucinating as the government speeds towards a shutdown. the good, news bad news of today's new polling. cassidy hutchison talks, new insight this hour into why she came forward with her story, and what that cost her. plus, why it's this close for the hollywood writers strike. >> >> good