coming up, on the second hour

of the mehdi hasan show tonight, gop dysfunctions, driving us towards a government shutdown. even house republicans are pointing to figure at one man, kevin mccarthy. plus, the white house just created the first ever office devoted to curbing gun violence. i will speak with former gun violence activists turn gen z congressman maxwell frost. and, covid rates are on the rise, again. my conversation with americas doctor, anthony fauci. >> good evening. at this moment, we are about six days away from a potential government shutdown. the first, since the start of 2019. and it's a shutdown that we are facing, because house republicans are completely dysfunctional, behaving in a pathetic way, and pushing for a completely meaningless shut down, because they want to burn the whole place down. those are not my words, those are the words of house republicans themselves. >> we are, completely

dysfunctional. >> there needs to be a realization, that you are not going to get everything you want. and, just throwing a temper tantrum, and stomping your feet, frankly not only is it wrong, it's pathetic. >> this is going to be a meaningless shutdown, if it were to occur, and it would absolutely impact peoples lives. we need to make sure that we keep the government open, and we get this deal done. >> it's frustrating, in the sense that i don't understand how -- and having a debate on that. -- [inaudible] -- that doesn't work. >> that last person there, accusing republican members of the house of trying to burn the place down, is their leader, kevin mccarthy. the house speaker, i say purportedly, because is he really in charge? is he really the, leader or is he the sign, or the speaker in

name only? if you recall, it took five days, and a whopping -- voting back in january, for mccarthy to finally claim the speaker's gavel. that debacle represented the first -- in a century, that required more than a single round of voting, to elect a speaker. and the process was riddled with mayhem, with name-calling, and even a testy altercation on the floor between freedom caucus troll matt gaetz, and mccarthy ally michael rogers. we were inches from out and out congressional fister cuffs. the -- early while days of mccarthy's reign have extended throughout his entire tenure, to the point that some republicans are so tired, so fed up with, him that they long for, of all people, nancy pelosi. >> speaker pelosi, for instance. i will give you, i don't agree with her, ever, hardly on anything. but, she was pretty successful in the way she did it was, she put it in issue outs for the caucus, she met with them, she

got a, she figured out what they wanted, and then they put it on the floor, and they passed it, and they rallied around it. a lot of work goes into that, but we are not seeing that, i am not seeing that work right now. >> when you are right, you are right, congressman. we are not seeing that right now. and, who is to blame for that. well, since january, we have been treated to a great deal of speculation about whether or not far-right extremist turned mccarthy ally and can make kingmaker marjorie taylor greene was the shadow speaker, the real speaker behind the scenes. but it turns out, it's matt gaetz, the aforementioned congressional troll. this one florida congressman, this one florida man, if you will, along with a very small handful of fall far-right burn him all down, allies has brought the work of the people 's -- to a screeching halt. and he has done so, while emasculating, demeaning, humiliating or kevin mccarthy at every turn. >> kevin mccarthy has put us behind the eight ball. >> kevin was lying, there is no

other way to put it. this is just kevin deflecting from his own failures. he has been reckless, and unhinged, and rattled. >> and on wednesday, we learned precisely why gaetz launched this chaos campaign. he admitted he is merely doing his dear leader donald trump's bidding. trump wants the government shutdown, and so, the government will be shut down. why exactly he wants this, is unclear. some have suggested, and trump himself has implied, that this could derail his trial, for the investigations into donald trump. the federal criminal proceedings, and the work of the council, are exempt from government shutdown. so, good luck with that. do you know what will be impacted though by the gop governme shutdown? millions of americans pocketbooks, for starters. part of the white house, all activity in military personnel in all law enrcement officers will be at work, and will receive no pay. 10,000 kids will lose access to start, and there will be no new smalbusiness loans.

travelers will likely be with massive delays, in american ports and airports. and the fda will be unable to conduct food safety inspections. this isn't a joke, even if matt gaetz thinks this is all wonderful and hilarious. the gop cult is willing to deliberately inflict financial pain, harm, on ordinary americans, including their beloved military. because one, they have a useless leader in congress -- and to, their de facto party leader, the real boss of the gop, it is on trial for multiple crimes, and is having a tantrum. joining me now to discuss all of this, and more, our molly jong-fast, host of the fast politics podcast, and a special correspondent for vanity fair. tim miller, an msnbc political analyst, writer at large at the bulwark, former republican calm -- and author of, why we did it, a travelog from the republican road to hell. and bryan tire wear cohen, an msnbc contributor, and a host on youtube.

thank you all for joining me tonight. tim, take a look at this quote from republican congressman mike simpson this ek quote, we always get the blame. name one finally shut the government down, and we haven't gotten the blame? my, what path us. i almost feel sorry for the house gop, do you tim? >> no. well, you are getting a -- congressman, because it is your fault. well that's a weird concept for some people to understand. they don't even have a point to this shut down. and here is the thing mehdi, back in the tea party era, the last, will not the last, time the one of the reasons i was about to do this rigmarole. at least of stance of, the republicans are making argument that we had to get our budget in, line that we were spending too much, that the purpose of this was to try to help get us closer to a balanced budget, to deal with the debt service. they're not even making that argument anymore. if they were making that argument, it's not credible, because they just spent the entire trump administration spending, spending more and raising deficits more than either obama or biden.

and so, they have no coherent arguments to avoid getting the blame for. this and you know, the other congressman from your intro, who was saying that nancy pelosi is just really good at this. you know, i'm happy to praise and give nancy pelosi present -- but i really think the big difference was not nancy pelosi's strategic, i think it was that nancy pelosi's caucus wasn't filled with nihilistic lunatics. i mean, that's kevin mccarthy's problem, it's not like he isn't trying. you know, he's got a lot of flaws, but it's all he is not trying to come up with a bill that could pass his conference. he just can't, because he is dealing with the people that are vaping at beetlejuice the musical, and. professional trolls like that cadence. like, he has people who aren't serious about governing, and that's the main issue here. >> that's all very true. brian, first off, first time on the show, great to have you all in the show. earlier, i touched on some of

the ways that this increasingly likely shutdown will harm real americans. and don't get me wrong, it is fun to watch mccarthy flounder. but this will have devastating effects on millions of americans. and, i just feel like we are not talking about that enough, that it is not some abstraction, this is real. >> totally. and, i think this also does kind of put on full display, what we are looking at right now with this republican house majority, is the exact same margin of the democrats had just a few years ago, when they had control of government. and if you look at the difference in what democrats were able to actually do for the american people. i mean, democrats with this razor-thin majority, rebel to pass the american rescue plan, pass the inflation reduction act, past the first gun safety bill in three decades, pass the chips act, pats passed the pact act. and it goes on and on, the republicans had the exact same majority, and they can't even keep the government open. if that is not a testament to just how much of a failure it is what republicans do take control of government, i don't know what is. >> and yet, they still have

majorities and house, which tells you so much about how -- molly, i truly never thought i would see the day where republicans are, effectively, expressing the style just for the pelosi era. and yet, mccarthy has so bundled this process, back gates and the freedom caucus have made it so miserable for him, you have conservatives on television, complementing the former speaker, asked him and i were just discussing. i feel like we are in a twilight zone right now. i mean, this is very different, as tim said, two previous attempts at a shutdown. >> well i mean, he is also, remember we have had leaves rules about -- we had to, he had two this week, which is a very unusual. and, definitely this has been very good for nancy pelosi's, legacy. you know, this idea that actually. i think tim is right, this caucus is completely crazy, and he only has a four seat majority, which is a very slim majority. but we saw that nancy pelosi was really careful, when she would vote, and she made sure that she had the votes before she took anything to the floor.

which, i do think, you know, you have a woman in that job, and she is going to be a lot more careful. and i mean, we have seen this, i think this is a little bit of a feminist fencing in some ways. but i mean yes, mccarthy is kind of, he is kind of a mess, and i don't think that these republicans. by the way, i don't think matt gaetz has some grand plan, with some speaker in the background. i mean, i don't think, i don't think the only person who has been suggested with steve scalise, and now he has said, and he is a mccarthy guy. and so, i don't think there's any plan, here on where they're going to go with that. >> that's weird, i would have thought republicans always have a clearly laid out plans. tim, let's flip pivot just a bit here. american media has a particular weakness for highlighting horse race matters, over substantive issues, when it comes to political coverage, i think it's fair to say. we've got a great example of that this weekend. today, in fact, you have a lot of the chattering glass freaking out on twitter, over

this laughable, i would argue, abc washington post poll. outlier, is the polite phrase, we've suggested among other things that trump is ahead of biden with young voters by 20 percentage points, if you believe, that i have a degree from from university for you. meanwhile, very few people are lking of the fact that trump called for the execution of outgoing joint chief of staff chairman general mark milley. and i just wonder, is there any better, is there any more ideal description of how messed up our media coverage is, that we focus on ridiculous polls, and miss out on the actual substance, which is one of the guys in those polls a suggesting a general should be executed? >> yeah i mean, sitting congressman paul gosar, wasn't that long ago, saying completely outlandish claims. so no, look i, understand having a democratic, or even a former republican, a democratic allies who are concerned about donald trump, or pundits, getting a little nervous about

a poll, even if it is an outlier. you know, given the stakes of the race, and just given the horrors that would come with a second trump term. and so, i do understand why some political media times to want to. discuss that but i totally agree with your critique, that it feels at times that there is an absence of discussion for the deep detailing, the horrors of -- because it is not like he is hiding it. i mean, he is running by saying that he wants to be the retribution, that he wants to target political foes, and he wants to completely make wholesale changes to the way that the federal government works, and eliminates federal workers, and on and on and on. and so, i do think that there can be a balance sometimes, between obsessing over outlier, polls versus discussing the substance of the stuff that trump is putting forward. >> yeah, and it does massive damage to our democracy, and

our understanding of politics. brian, a moment ago, you just eloquently laid out all of the things that democrats did when they had a majority. and yet, i feel like a lot of people in our media don't do that, they don't just say okay, here is what one party is pitching, here's what one party is done, here is what the other party is, pitching here is where the other party is done. instead, there are these abstract, up in the air discussions about who's up, who's down who's old, who's not what do voters in the diner thank. and no actual substance of. -- and you know that jay rosen has this line about the stakes, when you talk about the stakes in the race. so when you are reporting on a poll that shows trump of, put aside the fact of the trump's nonsense -- but if he is up by trump ten points, what does it mean to have the candidate who is leading by ten points, who by the way, wants execute america's top general. >> yeah, i mean he has already come out and said basically what he wants his next turn to be. and to tim's point, we focus so much on the horse race, but dawn from has come out and promised that a donald trump term will be more of this retribution of this political

opponents, he has promised it will be more restrictions on abortion, although now he is trying to pivot to the general. he has some friends for women's reproductive rights. and that dawn from is the common center when it comes to reproductive rights, america comes to abortion in america. when he we have all of the benefit i guess you could say, of looking back in retrospect, and seeing that adult from presidency brought, see with donald trump present -- and to make that decision, to make that determination, without having to guess. >> yeah. just one more to you, brian. thursday, we're looking at impeachment inquiry stuff happening on the eve of the government shutdown. that, again, we talk about the abstract terms of impeachment, good, impeachment, that. rather, this is a deliberate strategy by republicans to throw as much dirt in the biden states that he looks as bad as trump come the general, does it not? >> of course. what republicans have basically done with this whole impeachment inquiry is shown --

proven that they don't have evidence to back that. they will keep throwing the stuff because they know all they need is the impeachment inquiry itself to serve as a predicate to then be able to look forward and say joe biden has done that, joe biden has done, that this pieces on fox news, all the republican operatives will come out and say, look, there is an impeachment inquiry. if there is smoke, there must be fire somewhere. what we haven't seen in any of this is a modicum of evidence tying joe biden to hunter biden's influence talents came. there's nothing of that. that doesn't matter to the republicans because all they need is the optics of wrong doing. that is exactly what they got with the same peach meant inquiry, even though there hasn't been evidence and we won't see any evidence. >> but, brian, you have it all wrong. they need an impeachment inquiry to find the evidence. for the impeachment. >> that must be. it i'm sure that all of that evidence is that any moment now. >> i'm sure goalpost will not be shifted again. molly, this week, let's pivot again. a lot to discuss. this week, new jersey senator,

bob menendez, democrat, was indicted on bribery charges. some astonishing charges, including photos in the indictment of gold bars and cash stuffed in his jacket. charges he denies. so far, the only member of the upper chamber to call on him to resign from the senate has been john fetterman. rather striking when you consider that 30 plus democratic senate crap -- democrats called out -- for a scandal that wasn't criminal. how does dick durbin speak earlier today, emily? >> a person who is accusing titled to the pursuit mission of innocence. responsibility of the governor to prove that case. in terms of resignation, that's a decision by senator menendez and the people of new jersey. >> i feel like, once again, molly, just a dereliction of duty from top senate democrats. >> john fetterman's right away saying that he should resign. but he should resign. i think there has been a call

from a lot of new jersey democrats, including congressman andy kim who is going to primary menendez. i think democrats largely look the [inaudible] i don't think doing the right thing yet. >> i mean not just a leadership, molly. let's not be polite here. there are 51 senate democrats. one has come out to call for resignation. even people like elizabeth warren, bernie sanders, who made anti croatian parliament platform for president. >> i hope that during this week they will. i think it's really good sign that we have seen all of these new jersey democrats call. the governor of new jersey also called for his resigning. that's all or really good sign. this is not the first crime this guy has been charged, right? this is the second time. this is not -- this is a pattern at this point. i do not come to conclusions it anyway, but i also think that there is really, you know, we

are seeing democrats do the right thing. sometimes, they need to be pushed, right? we've seen this with the biden administration. at least with this administration, they respond to pressure. i do hope that the senate democrats will see, you know, that this is really -- they have the moral high ground because they take that moral high ground. >> tim, republican senators hate democrats. ted cruz is always tanking democrats. if democratic senator indicted on corruption charges, not a single republican senator has called on the side. why is that? >> yeah. the republicans are just so pot committed to this absurd conspiracy theory that the department of justice has politicized and joe biden has simultaneously, dementia ridden, also master by day one of the biggest scandals in history where from the white house, he is deciding who merrick garland

is going to indict on a given day. it is absurd and completely absurd and unbelievable. there is no basis to it. now, we have the fact that joe biden's only son, hunter, and a democratic son nutter have all been indicted. somehow this conspiracy continues to persist because it needs to exist for republicans to advance their talking points in defense of their king, donald trump. so, they can't speak out on the menendez thing. it has to be part of this conspiracy because that is the only way for them to by donald trump. briefly, i have to say, dick durbin, i think, has continually not stepped up to the plate. this is, again, he runs the judiciary committee in the senate when it comes to oversight of crimes of clarence thomas and others. i really think the democrats need to have a reckoning with the senate leadership on this stuff. >> we are out of time. i'm glad you mentioned cleanse thomas. brian, last word, 30 seconds to go. would not the principal

democratic position be the same tomorrow, everyone, robert menendez resigned, clarence thomas, resign? >> without a doubt. i don't think that you can move forward and say that donald trump should accept his punishments, they would indict donald trump, prosecute donald trump, if someone has all of this evidence of wrongdoing on our own side and we can't be bothered to do the same. also, think about it from an electoral perspective as well. if we are wasting resources in new jersey of all places, you know, we should be using those resources in other states that are obviously much more prominent locations that democrats can fight in other than new jersey. obviously, the number one thing that menendez should do is put his inflated eagle behind and figure out what's important for the country in the party and not persist in this lunacy here. >> although, apparently, and press conference, he's going to do the exact opposite. thank you to all of my panel,

mileage jong-fast, tyler, brian, i appreciate you all. coming up next, i'll speak with gun violence survivor and former activist, congressman maxwell frost. the biden administration's latest effort to curb gun violence in america. stick around for that edition. for that edition. (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. ♪ oh what a good time we will have ♪

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number of people have died from gun violence in 2023 in the united states, according to the gun violence archive. that number rises year after year. this week, president biden and how secretion of a whise office dedicated to gun violence archive mansion. the new office, the first postcard, will be overseen by vice president kamala harris and led by stephanie feldman and [inaudible] [laughs] for at the kids who have [inaudible] talking about the office [inaudible] >>

determined to send a clear message about how important this issue is to me and to the country. it matters. here's why. after every mass shooting, we hear a simple message. the same message is heard over the country. i've heard to every mass shooting. do something. please, do something. folks, to be clear, none of the steps alone is going to solve the entirety of gun violence epidemic. none of them. together, we will save lives. >> joining me now to discuss this is a gun violence survivor turned former national organizing director for march for our lives. she's the first gen z member of congress, democratic frost. welcome back to the show. have to ask, what was it like for you being at the white house on friday, not as an activist, as a member of congress. along with the march for our lives david?

>> it was an amazing experience. this is something i've been working on since before i got to congress. working as a national organizing directorate march for our lives. march for our lives and other organizations all came together to put this ask forward. it's very natural i made a lot of sense for this to be the first bill that i introduced as a member of congress. it was the opportunity of a lifetime. getting to be there, getting to meet the president. also talking about how this problem is something is at the forefront of young people's minds across this entire country. so, it was an amazing day. and looking at that crowd at new everybody in the crowd because the movement was there. this is something we've been fighting for for a while. i'm glad president biden took the executive action to make this happen. it's gonna save lives. >> you say it's gonna save lives. explain to our viewers, what will this office be able to do when it comes to tackling gun violence? given the ongoing deadlock in congress on substantive gun reform. what will this do? >> first up, people have to understand that before, a few

days ago and present biden with this office, there wasn't a single point, a single office working on gun violence every day as its sole purpose. gun violence has really struck out between many offices in the government. the doj has a responsibility, the atf, we also have h h s s with responsibilities. this office will be working daily where we lose 100 lives a day. what are they going to do? one of the biggest tasks are going to be ensuring the speed up the implementation of the bipartisan safer communities act. there is still a lot of money in grants in the community violence intervention. health care, suicide prevention, given things like that. this of this is going to work with accelerating the implementation of the bill. they are also going to work with the legislative portfolio, the president, so that we can ban assault weapons and banned gun legislation in congress. it will also work as a conduit for all of these organizations, both national, local, statewide, with the white house.

lastly, they're going to be working a fair amount, what does the responsible -- federal response to the shootings like? like president mentioned that they think about how fema has been dispatched to a community after a natural disaster. well, after there's a mass shooting and all this goes on, there needs to be a federal response that comes out to take care of the survivors and talk about how the community can move forward and how we can ensure this never happens again. >> so, it's an office that's going to take action, as you explained. the problem is, we have a government that -- the republican wants to shut down. i want to get your thoughts on a potential government shutdown in a few days time. just days after. you said you looked a new office to put put forward the bill. what, in your view, are the odds of a government shutdown happening? should democrats compromise on the spending cuts the gop is proposing in order to avoid it? >> oh, i think the government is going to happen. i would be surprised if it didn't.

a new member of congress, i often will go to members that have been there lauded me and ask them questions. i've got too many different members, folks who've been there for a long time. they all say the same thing. it has never been this bad as it relates to a government shutdown. we have no idea what is going to happen. so, it's really unfortunate. look, we have a speaker of the house who is focused on the daily -- on how to help people. he's focused on the daily on how to keep his job. that's just no way to govern. as far as democrats, no. this deal was already cut, right? remember, just a few months ago, what the whole debt ceiling negotiations, the whole thing with people. a deal was made between speaker kevin mccarthy and the president of the united states had passed. signed into law. a deal is a deal. look, that deal the president got a lot of good things. there is still some negative things. the republicans also got some winds in it. now, they are saying, that is not enough. we want to cut food stamps even more.

we want to cut social security administration even more. democrats need to hold the line. not one penny under the debt ceiling already negotiated a deal. >> you mentioned a speaker that wants to keep his job. if there is a motion for matt gaetz and others on the far-right to vacate the speakership, would you and other democrats vote to save kevin riccardi's job, he doesn't have enough votes on the republican side? >> as of now, i would vote to vacate him. he's been a horrible speaker. he has no power, no ability to get his own congress together. we see what's going on. look, i spoken with some other folks who said, what if the person who comes after is worse? i understand that. listen, number one, democrats have the senate and the presidency. it's not like a horrible bill at the house representatives will become law anyway. just look at what is going on right now. it's not like we can debate on ideology or anything like that at this point. there's nothing on the floor. he can't even get a rule passed so we could have a debate on

issues. i just can't think of how are they can get in terms of the procedure and running the job in doing the job in the first place. i would vote to vacate him. speaker mccarthy gave the democrats a really good deal, committee chairmanship's, things like that that could actually have a -- make alleged slave difference. maybe, just maybe, i voted to keep him. right now, i would, say he needs to get out of there and he is really at risk of losing his job. the thing here is that he did it to himself. >> of course he's not going to offer you you committee chairmanship, as we both know. let me ask you this, you said the next person could be worse. let's talk about the worst people in america unrelated to the public and party. donald trump, gop front runner, suggesting this week that general mark milley, the joint chief of staff, should be executed for treason. ben jacobs reported, arizona gop congressman paul gosar has

advocated for general milley's execution writing in the newspaper after delivering a homophobic rant. quote, in a better society, general milley would be hung. that's a house republican. why are democrats not making more noise about stuff like this? the president, the former president, and supposedly next president, and a republican member of the house, want to have a top general to execute. >> i intend to making a lot of noise on this when i get back to the house. i'm sure a lot of democrats will join me on it. in a better society, paul gosar wouldn't be in the united states congress and donald trump would never have been president, to be clear. this is horrible. folks that are the leader of the party, where we're seeing increased political violence across the entire country just a few weeks ago in jacksonville, near the state of florida, someone who was a huge round desantis fan, huge right ringer, got a gun and went to murder three people it dollar general

because they were black. that's what's going on. you go on twitter on truth social, whatever they're on, and they're out there calling for the execution of generals and execution of political figures. it just shows you, it's no surprise that this political violence is on the rise. it makes me think back at the beginning of congress. the two votes we had to censure. schiff and omar. then they have the caucus calling for political fines and people to be killed. it's shameful and disgraceful. democracy at the highest front. >> it certainly is shameful and hypocritical. we'll have to leave it there. congressman maxwell frost, thank you tonight. >> thank you. >> later this hour -- donald trump, former president, wants you to believe that he is a moderate on abortion. we have receipts showing [inaudible] also, joe forget, you can listen to the mehdi hasan show anytime free where you get your podcasts. the coach.

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trump versus trump on abortion. he may be trying to muddy the waters as he campaigns for president again. his record at his words speak for themselves. we will play his contradicting statements for you, next. first, richard louis here is with more headlines. hey, richard. >> hey, mehdi. more stories we're searching -- for six people are dead, including three children, after a train crashed into their car while crossing railroad tracks in florida. they were on their way to conciliate a birthday celebration. five passengers were killed immediately in the driver passed way overnight. one is in critical condition. hollywood writers and producers, during a deal to end the writers guild of america strikes. and it was the fifth strike day. the two sides have met. sources are saying the two sides have made progress, but are still finalizing language over the use of artificial intelligence. tropical storm ophelia is now a

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>> desantis's villages signed a six-week ban. >> do you support? that >> it's a terrible thing. a terrible mistake. >> deeply and punishment for both russian? yes or no, as a principle? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> but the woman? >> there has to be some form. >> you would cited federal abortion ban. >> i said this. i want to do what's right. we are looking. we want to do what's right for everybody. the fact that i was able to terminate roe v. wade after 50 years of trying. i was so honored to have done it. >> we can win elections on this issue, but it is very delicate and explaining properly is extremely important. we ended roe v. wade. >> they couldn't get the job done. i got the job done. >> there you go. coming up -- doctor anthony fauci says the long term effects of covid is a serious problem. so, why isn't the government doing more to address it? especially as covid spikes.

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♪oh♪ ♪then you take me by the hand♪ ♪i feel better again♪ ♪oh i feel better now♪ >> it's been three and a half years since the start of the covid-19 pandemic. despite what many of us had hoped, we are not out of the woods yet. hospitalizations have been on the rise across the u.s. for months. last week, covid hospitalizations across 20,000 for the first time since march as the new ba.2's experience spreads. but there is some good news. not only on deaths, still much

slower than previous years. also, updating covid booster shots are finally here. right in time for expected fall and winter surge. biden admistration has restart its ee at home testing program starting monday september the 25th, tomorrow, you can order for tests per household at no cost. a few days ago, on my peacock show, i spoke with the man who guided us through the height of the covid crisis, doctor anthony fauci who served as director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases. the chief medical advisor to biden, till he stepped down at the end of last year. here is part of that conversation. >> dr. fauci, we are seeing a new spike in covid cases nationwide. a new variant. there's that line that i mentioned a moment ago. you may be over covid, covid is over. you disappear just a bit of smart people have repeatedly predicted the end of covid? wished it away. it hasn't gone away. >> it hasn't gone away. i think there has to be a

distinction of looking at it as an acute tsunami type crisis that we saw in the early years. as you mentioned in the top of the show, it's correct that the number of cases, hospitalizations, deaths have gone way down. they haven't disappeared. we're not going to eradicate this virus for sure. we've only eradicated one virus in the history of public health. that is smallpox. we've only eliminated different regions of viruses that have been very troublesome, but have been controlled by vaccinations like measles and polio. so, what we're talking about is control. so, when we say covid is done, it is not done because it is there at a low enough level and there is enough of vulnerable people. it has the capability, which is really somewhat unusual. not totally unique, but quite unusual at the same virus in the same season, as it were --

because this is been a three and a happier season, as it were. it tends to get variants that allude protection from the prior infection. what we are seeing now is an uptick in cases. not way up, but enough to tell us that we are not finished with this virus. >> let's talk about immunity. let's talk about vaccines. we have a new booster. just approved. only around 20% of adults got the last booster. how do we get those booster rates up? where we not have actually backs conspiracy, but also our allies in the western world, in the eu, in britain, who are saying, well, new boosters are for over 65. our cdc saying it's for everyone. that is confusing. >> yeah, well, it is confusing because we are talking about the relative degree of benefit from it. when you have vulnerable populations that we have, the elderly, the pregnant individuals, individuals who have underlying conditions. either immune compromised or

medical conditions that make the situation worse if they get infected. those are the ones that get the most bang out of their buck and benefit from the vaccines. however, younger individuals are not completely exempt from getting into trouble. even though the relative amount of seriousness within that young, otherwise healthy population, is much, much lower than the extremes i spoke about, they can't get seriously ill. number one. you want to avoid that and do risk benefit ratio over what the risk versus the benefit is. the risk of these vaccines that have now been given literally billions of people in the sense of global use of the vaccine, is really quite safe. however, there is another thing that you mentioned early on in your introduction. that is long covid. we have to be careful because there are things about long covid that we don't yet fully

appreciate. that is one of the reasons the cdc made -- what i believe is the correct decision -- to essentially recommend that everyone who is eligible. the reason i think that is important, maybe, is because when you give the message that is nuanced, it becomes garbled. people say, who should be getting vaccinated? if you say, vaccination benefits the elderly and the immune compromised and pregnant women much more than it does young, healthy individuals, that doesn't mean it doesn't have some benefit for everybody. >> you mentioned long covid. last year, in the guardian, about a year ago, you called covid an insidious public health emergency because of his long term effects. you said when it comes to long covid, we are swimming in the dark, your words. why isn't congress or the biden administration that you were until recently part of, why isn't it doing more to address long covid but it affects millions of americans? president biden, we checked, said the words long covid once

about two years ago. basically doesn't talk about it ever. >> they are doing, in fairness, they are doing a bit. in the early on, 1.5 billion dollars was given to the mh to study it. we didn't know anything about it. what we need now is a special component of h h s that is directly responsible now for coordinating the work. >> the program, mainland studying long covid enrolled its first trial participant a couple weeks ago. that is very late. >> it is. the reason for that -- i'm making excuses for it. the reason for that is when you don't know anything about the proper definition of long covid, what is? what are the criteria that separate law covid from everything's that might be confused with long covid? you have to have because. i agree. critical trials likely should have been done sooner. >> what do you say to long covid? people contact me and say, we

feel abandoned. biden just talk about, it cdc doesn't talk about. you talked about last year. they want to hear more about. it do you dispute when they say, we are feeling abandoned. >> they feel ignored, i want to assure them that they are not. it's very, very much on the radar screen of the nih and it is very, very much on the radar screen up age age as. the president is certainly aware and totally aware that this is a serious problem. >> dr. fauci and i discussed lovely theory on the origins of covid. the violent rhetoric from the right. donald trump and joe biden's mental competence. you can find our full come variation at msnbc foreign slash maybe, where you can scan the qr code on your screen to watch. thank you for watching tonight. we will be right back here next sunday at eight pm eastern. you can now find this show at new episodes of the mighty has an show on the msnbc hub on peacock. until the next show, have a great night.

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>> hello, i'm ari melber, and

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