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hi there. it's 4:00 in new york. the threat of politically inspired violence looms over every single facet of american civic life. thanks to a new round of threats from the ex president and revealed by new reporting on this topic. the prosecutors w h indicted donald trump face threats against them, their families, their kids and their staffs. democrats and republica are spending record sums on security for themselves and their families and their staff. donald trump last night renewed a smear against the media first deployed during his presidency by lashing out at the networks of nbc and msnbc calling us, quote, enemies of the people. trump attacked u.s. active duty military by accusing its top official of treason. trump didn't spare the public at large either. the ex president and his allies

have attacked the grand jurors. the brand new reporting in "the new york times" lays out how law enforcementeeking to respond to this unprecedented domestic threat environment. quote, as the prosecutions of threat have accelerated so too threats against law enforcemenjudges, elected ofs and others. the threats are prompting protective measures. the legal effort to curb his incendiary statements, a renewed concern in which trump has promised retribution to produce violence. the disinformation, the grievances, the angry and violent rhetoric that led to t january 6th insurrection has shown no sign of petering out. as "the new york times" reports, quote, in april before federal

uts indicted trump, one survey showed that4.5% of american adults agreed with the idea that the use of force was justo restore trump to the presidency. two minutes later after the fit federal indictment of trump, that figure surged to 7%. one expert telling "the new york times," the indictments of trump are the most important current drivers of political violence we have. none of this would be happening without the support of the ex president who pours kerosene on the fire on a daily basis. statements target his perceived political opponents, the media and law enforcement officials who he believes stand in his way. the justice department has requested a gag order, a legal battle between jack smith and trump's attorneys is to unfold this week, pushing the country into unchartered

territory. quote, there's little precedent for how the judge overseeing the case, tanya chutkan should ensure the safety of the peoe participating in the proceedings. efforts to counter the threat of political violence emanating from trump and trumpism is where we begin with some of our favorite reporters. former fbi counter intelligence agent pete struck is here. "new york times" washington correspondent and msnbc national security contributor meg schmidt and msnbc political analyst

claire mccaskill, the former senator. mike, take us through your reporting which seems to seek to connect the dots between the current threat environment which we talk about a lot and all of the smears or posts or truth socials and all the threats that have been realized. you mention obama had a would be attacker outside his presence. others, democrats and republicans who have crossed wires with trump, require security. we cover a lot of the prosecutors who are facing unprecedented threats. more recently this remarkable filing from the justice department about what jack smith's team sees as a real threat to the very ability to put on a fair trial in d.c. because of things trump's been say. >> i think one of the responsibilities that we have as journalists, especially with

everything that's going on, is trying to capture a moment or what is going on currently by connecting different things. to your point, if you step back and you look at all this stuff, whether you're a scholar or someone who monitors this stuff on a daily basis or a politician or a law enforcement official, a lot of people seem to be saying the same thing. on top of that, you have tangible examples, arrests that have been made by people making threats. the fbi has fatally shot and killed two people over the past 13 months related to threats and such. what we're trying to do is say, hey, there's a lot of stuff being said, but when you look at it all, this is a very unusual,

extraordinary moment. that's what we were trying to do, trying to tie all those pieces together because there's a lot of developments that have happened. the arrest of the person outside of obama's house, the calls into the judge, all of those stories got some attention, but they didn't get, you know -- we tried to put them altogether in one place. >> pete, after 9/11 there were calls to declassify about bin laden's desire to attack in the u.s. we don't need it here. the person who wanted to murder judge chutkan, she was arrested before she carried out violence. the would be obama attacker, there was someone wandering around the president's house and the secret service deals with that all the time. in this environment, if anything

happens to anyone -- we should say something has already happened. paul pelosi was attacked by a deranged person who spews conspiracy theories. you had a shooter in new mexico who shot democratic election officials. january 6th happened and every member of the house and every senator ran for their lives. if there's video of anyone not running, i haven't seen it yet. something has already happened. what is it that makes this threat so difficult to stay ahead of? >> well, nicolle, any time you have that stunning 7% that you cited of the population that believes it's justified that violence must be justified, that's a huge number of people when you look at a body of 30 plus million people who voted for trump. not all 7% of those folks will take up arms, but if even a tiny percent decide they're

aggrieved, from a law enforcement perspective, it's one thing if you're tracking what the oath keepers or proud boys are doing and from january 6th it isn't clear to me the federal government didn't do a good job with those large groups. when you talk about one or two people, when you talk about caesar sinock, a trump follower, who was sending explosive devices, these have been brewing for sometime. when you have the leader of the republican party who encourages violence, you're setting the stage for this grievance and the idea that violence is justified in response to that grievance, that all we're waiting on is some adverse ruling from a judge, an adverse finding in a court of law, an adverse result in a presidential election and it takes not just this simmering

attitude, but one that's actively being encouraged by trump and i worry any one of those events is enough to push a number of small actors to violence in a way that federal and state and local law enforcement don't have any ability to see coming. that's what makes it so dangerous. >> i mean, they can't see it coming, but they already know the call and response, call and response, smear to action, smear to action. here's testimony from the january 6th hearings led by congressman jamie raskin. >> at 1:42 a.m. on december 19, 2020, shortly after the last participants left the unhinged meeting trump sent out the tweet -- >> it's saturday, december 19th, the year is 2020. one of the most historic events in american history has just taken place. >> now donald trump is calling

on his supporters to descend on washington, d.c., january 6th. >> i very much believe that donald trump's tweet on december 19th was staking a flag in d.c. on january 6th for his supporters to come and rally. >> you were concerned about the potential for this gathering becoming violent? >> absolutely. >> president trump's tweet drew tens of thousands of americans to washington to form the angry crowd that would be transformed on january 6th to a violent mob. >> basically the president got everybody riled up, told everybody to head on down. we basically just followed what he said. i was hanging on every word he was saying. everything he was putting out i was following it. the next election could come out and be down the same path we are

now. >> less anyone think i'm being nervous, steven ayers was a trump supporter and went to washington because trump told him to. he testified, who knows what the next election could come out, we could be going down the same path we are right now. >> somebody asked me, you were a prosecutor for a long time. i was the head of a prosecutors office that handled 10,000 felonies a year, really hardened, violent criminals. we were prosecuting and putting people behind bars. they asked, isn't it normal you would feel threatened? this is completely different? why? because when you have an individual that wants to strike out against a prosecutor, they know they're not going to get

anywhere with that. i was a single mom with three kids at the time and i never felt afraid. why this is different is because we have a man of power in our country, the most powerful republican on the planet basically every day pouring gasoline on a just smoldering fire. when he's doing that, he is telling his followers, if you act, you are righteous. you are doing something -- >> i will pardon you. >> not only that, but you're saving our country. he says every time he does these deranged screams about going after people and getting people, it's -- you know, they're ruining our country. we have to save our country. these people, that 7%, they actually believe they're doing something that is righteous and wonderful for the united states of america. that's why this is different. that's why all those prosecutors and their families are at risk.

that's why all these judges and their families are at risk. that's why some people who are in office are at risk. it is -- i hope we're wrong, but the one thing that won't surprise me is if we have some kind of brutal violent crime against someone trying to enforce the rule of law. >> i hope that none of the threats are realized, but mike goes through your the attempts. a call was receid in the chambers of the district of columbia t judge tanya chutkan. the caller threatened to kill anyone w went after former president trump including a direct threat to kill congresswoman jackson lee and people in the lgbtq community. this is a detention memo for a

went to obama's house.llegedly he on kevin mccarthy's offer toroduce video. allegedly this man went to the house of president a. he beganife streamingro his van on his youtube channel. he was driroun the neighborhood in washington, d.c. following the arrest offic located the van where he parked it on the street. two firearms and hundreds of rounds of ammunition were located inside the van. i can go on and on. it's already happening in terms of the threat existing. law enforcement, thanks to the kinds of things you reported on, are staying ahead of it. the picture you paint suggests that even the people in charge of protecting us now need protection. >> correct. the prosecutors.

you know, there's a larger question that this raises which is what does this say to people about going into public life? what does this say to the young person thinking about becoming a prosecutor or someone wanting to go to work in the intelligence community or at the fbi? we don't hear a lot from chris wray. we did find in some of the transcripts that we looked at and as part of our reporting one fbi supervisor talking about the threats against bureau personnel's children and how their children didn't ask for this. the children didn't ask for this. it's not like the children signed up. if you are someone watching this and you're a young person and you're like, well, do i want to be in the intelligence community? do i want to be a law enforcement officer?

this sends a signal about, you know, what could happen to you, you know, if you take on a very difficult investigation. that's something we don't hear a lot from chris wray -- the pendulum of fbi directors talking publicly has swung to the point that we don't hear a ton. i would be very interested to hear from wray about what this rhetoric means to simply recruiting, to simply bringing people in, to maintaining the personnel they have. >> pete, mike's being diplomatic. wray says nothing publicly. i imagine it's painful to see his agency under attack. i want to read from the doj request for a gag order as it p pertains totrump's targeting of jay bratt. the special counsel has been

subject to multiple threats and the specific special counsel's targeted through inflammatory posts has been subject to intimidating coations. the defendant has spread knowingly false accusations of misconduct against the prosecutor in which the defendant was indicted in the southern district of florida june of 2023. the defendant repeatedly makes the knowingly claim that the speci counsel's office went to the white house in advance of the defendant's june 2023 indictment for improper reasons. we fact checked that here. we know it's not true. doj is putting that in its filing as a powerful example of how the disinformation endangers the lives of the investigators. what do you think is on the line, pete, in this hearing? >> has mike and his colleagues have pointed out in the

reporting, ordinarily gag orders apply to the trial. you don't want to taint the jury pool or impact witnesses coming to trial. the doj has said, your honor, not only is there a potential for impacting the trial, but we're dealing with ongoing threats right now to prosecutors, to people -- to the court, to the judge involved in this process. it's not something coming down the line. this is -- we are requesting this gag order as a result of threats that exist now. i can tell you. trump accused me of treason in 2018. that day, the day he did it, the threats started coming in. >> i remember that day. we covered it. i need all of you to stick around. when we come back, in the leadup to january 6th, did the fbi not account for the ex president's ability to galvanize extremists?

plus, cassidy hutchinson speaking out, warning us about the dangers of another trump presidency. we'll talk with a member of the january 6th select committee, congresswoman zoe loughlin. we'll be back after a quick break. don't go anywhere. break. don't go anywhere. ember card tht opens doors for what matters. what if we need to see a doctor away from home? we got you — with medicare advantage's largest national provider network. only from unitedhealthcare. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered...

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i'll say this, if there's a

prosecution of donald trump for mishandling classified information after the clinton debacle, there will be riots in the streets. >> political bias that has run rampant in the seventh floor of the fbi building. they could be sweeping this under the rug. >> the swamp has gotten deeper and deeper and continues to try to coverup these illegal acts and they need to be held accountable. >> clair, i would say the one inspector general who trump didn't fire, found there was no political bias involved and that the investigations into trump were factually predicated. >> i'm familiar with him as someone who is an auditor's auditor. that's what igs are. they're auditors by training. he's nonpolitical and highly respected in the world of

inspectors general. his investigation should mean something to all those idiots we heard talking. >> why doesn't it? >> because they're playing to the 59% of the people that don't understand that joe biden's physical frailties are not as problematic as donald trump's mental illness, his derangement. they are so captured by the politics of trump's power that they have abandoned their principles. it's that simple. it's depressing to watch. >> i feel like you're saying something important and profound. you're saying what they're attempting to do is put on par joe biden's age and questions about his stamina with donald trump's autocratic, corrupt, criminal ways. >> trump's out of his ever-loving mind.

the things he's saying -- >> he's a crazy autocrat. >> he's crazy and deranged and willing to do anything and surround himself with people who will do anything he wants them to do whether it is pardoning people who have been convicted for violently attacking police officers in the capitol or whether it's telling his followers to do physical violence, political violence against prosecutors and judges, threatening to change who can broadcast in this country. i mean, this is all nutty. he's nuts. he's lost his friggin' mind. it's so plain to see if you're not caught up in the power he represents. >> what explains the entire republican party following him

except for liz cheney? >> january 6th most of them had the courage to say it. he should be nowhere near power. he's self-absorbed to a dire threat to our national security and our standing in the world. the idea that someone like lindsey graham and somebody like chuck grassley -- i mean, forget about rick scott. he's kind of -- you know. i worked with those two. lindsey graham is a military guy, former prosecutor. the idea that he would say things like that when he knows better is just disgusting. >> i mean, pete, i remember dash -- you mentioned when trump called you a person who

committed treason. i read your book and you describe something from your training to operate in war zones, about getting yourself and your family off the x. what i can't get my brain around is why -- maybe this is a me problem. why one of the two political parties in this country continues to enable dangerous politics. there are a ton of other people running for president. i have to watch these debates. it's an honor to watch these debates in my role here for msnbc. there's ten other people that want the job. why does the party get addicted to the person with the autocratic practices? >> because that autocrat wields the votes of 30 million people. they're terrified about trump turning his sights on them. not only do they not have the support of trump supporters if

they go against him, but they're a source of targeting. liz cheney has all kinds of comments being made by trump. adam kinzinger has all these comments being made by trump. there's a political benefit of staying loyal to trump because he has such a thrawl over his voter base and there's a fear of going up against him. i'm so glad to see -- i'm mortified and terrified that jay brad who i worked with for 15 plus years that he's been subject to any threats. his family, i read the comments that mike and his colleagues put in talking about fbi families not signing up for this. it has a real impact. it's not going to stop anybody from doing their job. any time your spouse has to look out the window before they leave for work, any time they have to drive a different route because of concerns about what the targeting might be, that sort of

thing, if you're an investigator, prosecutor, that's the reason people are afraid to go up against trump. >> mike, your reporting leaves us wondering whether that's the point, right? it ends with one of your experts making this point, that 80% of all americans are against violence. if you're running in a general election and one person is creating it and giving permission for it, and the one who's against it, they stand with 80% of all americans. that expert didn't seem to think that would protect the country from the lone wolf. >> you don't need many people to create destruction. sure, it's only whatever percent you want to pick, but you only need a few people. look at past office --

>> timothy mcveigh. >> timothy mcveigh was one person. the hijackers on 9/11 were less than several dozen people. they had support from others, but it doesn't take battalions of troops to create havoc. as we saw on january 6th, those were untrained, you know, whatever these folks were. they were not -- maybe some of them were trained. nothing on january 6th was organized. it was a bunch of people running towards the capitol. they didn't have tanks or anything. you only need a few people. i think that's the concern that people have. >> pete strzok, mike schmidt, thank you for starting us off. claire mccaskill sticks around. when we come back one of the star witnesses for the january 6th select committee, cassidy

hutchinson, is talking publicly for the first time. she'll join rachel maddow for her first live interview. we'll show you a preview of how she's talking about the last year of her life, what it was like under pressure and threat from donald trump and his allies. that's up next.

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former president of the united states. he is dangerous for the country. he is willing and has shown time and time again willingness to proliferate lies and to vulnerable american people so he can stay in power. to me that's the most unamerican thing you can do. >> that was former white house aid cassidy hutchinson warning us in an interview with cbs about the dangers of reelecting the disgraced, twice impeached ex president trump. that was her first interview since her testimony before the january 6th house select committee. cassidy hutchinson has been out of the public eye since then. we know because at times she was in hiding fearing for her safety. "the new york times" spoke with her. they report, quote, she's facing blistering social media attacks from mr. trump and his

supporters. cassidy hutchinson retreated from washington and cut off contact with her former wte house world. she told the "times," quote, i'm not a victim. i did what i did. i knew what i was getting myself out into. tonight in her first live interview she'll talk to rachel maddow. joining our coverage is democratic congresswoman zoe loughlin. congresswoman, thank you for being here. watching her navigate a press tour is totally different than what i imagine you and your colleagues navigated assembling a set of facts. you see this very serious person

who wanted to stay on the inside, but refused to allow her i don't remember, i don't recall, i don't know stand from her first interviews. she described that in this first interview. what can you tell us and what do you think happens to her that doesn't happen to mark meadows or steve bannon or so many other trump insiders? >> well, this young woman showed more courage than any of these old guys that she worked with. she came forward and first she was counselled by a trump lawyer to not tell the truth. she was troubled by that. you know, her testimony after she got a new lawyer, fired the trump lawyer was that she talked to a republican on capitol hill who she respected and was advised to do the look in the mirror test, which is can you

look in the mirror for the rest of your life and respect yourself. she decided she couldn't do that unless she came forward and told the truth. she knew what she was getting into. it's outrageous that a young woman like this is being attacked, had to fear for her life. i admire her courage and willingness to stand up. i wish more people in trump world had done the same. >> she talks about -- i haven't read the book yet. i presume she writes about being inspired by a watergate witness. you know, she's a student of history. she's a student of the history of corrupt presidents and corrupt white houses and the people who try to walk a line. what's important for people -- we were talking for 30 minutes about political violence.

she's talking about being in hiding because she had threats. she was an insider's insider. she was the closest person to mark meadows, to donald trump. these are people deep on the inside. as you said, precious few have this moment of truth that she did. >> well, it wasn't just the threats. i mean, if you read -- obviously she testified before us, but the full transcripts of her testimony are available. she really described, not just, you know, the pressure, but really threats that she wouldn't get employment, dangling jobs if she would stay on the team, really her trump-paid lawyer telling her, you know, not to tell the truth. i mean, this whole scheme of not being forthright and, you know, she's a young person. i mean she had tremendous responsibility. she was in her early 20s. she saw that she had -- you

know, you could either choose to tell the truth or live with a lie for the rest of your life. she chose, i think bravely, to tell the truth. i respect that. i'm looking forward to reading her book too. i haven't received it yet. i've got it in an advanced order. >> me too. >> congresswoman, i am so frustrated every day by the men and some women, did you primarily men, who you work around every day that are the antithesis of what cassidy hutchinson is. they're a 180 from her. i'm wondering if you have any insight as to how they can keep putting one foot in front of the other while doing and saying the things they're doing? i was shocked when i saw mike

rodgers' ad for the senate. have you seen it? >> i haven't. >> mike rodgers say, i used to work at the fbi. the fbi is corrupt. >> that's outrageous. outrageous. he knows that's a lie. >> yeah. i mean, he was deeply steeped into intelligence community in congress and widely respected. i'm not afraid to say there are republicans who were widely respected. how in the world do you square the circle between the mike rodgers that understands the intelligence community and the mike rodgers running for office saying the entire fbi is corrupt? >> you know, i work with republican members of congress. you know, some have tremendous integrity and intelligence and i enjoy working with them.

there's a maga set of extremists who will do anything for power. they'll lie and make things up. how they live with themselves, i don't fully understand. i was interested in senator romney's comment that when all is said and done, at best case you'll be a footnote in history, but your family will know what you did. how can you live with yourself knowing that you're telling a lie to get power? i don't understand it. >> yet, it is the hallmark of being a republican today, knowing better and doing nothing. congresswoman, always a pleasure to talk to you. we'll call on you again as we read the book and talk to cassidy hutchinson. cassidy will be joining rachel maddow tonight live for her first cable news tv interview. she'll be on our program wednesday. quick break for us. clair and i will be right back.

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clair, you shocked the congresswoman and shocked me with this mike rodgers' thing. i watched it during the break. this is the kind of story and kind of threat facing the fbi and justice department from people who know better. he says the justice department is corrupt and he'll fight to restore its integrity. what's he talking about? >> he's making it up. he's lying. he knows he's lying.

this is the way this works. you lie. trump lies. he lies and he lies. pretty soon more and more republicans believe the lie. then the lie becomes fact. then it's a fact that's immovable to people running for office as republicans because they're not willing to take the risk of exposing the lie. he is more worried about becoming a senator from michigan than he is telling the truth. that's as simple as it gets. he's more interested in being the senator from michigan than telling the truth. it ought to be disqualifying to the swing voters in michigan who rejected what trump has tried to do in their state in a pretty dramatic fashion. i think he thinks maybe people will forget about this if he gets the nomination and then he'll go back to being normal mike rodgers instead of crazy maga mike rodgers. >> you can never go home. >> cassidy hutchinson has but

she did it in a courageous way. mike pence, he can't. there's all kinds of people -- nikki haley tried to straddle it. all she's gotten is strained muscles. >> thank you for bringing that to our attention. when we come back, senator robert menendez was defiant today in the face of calls for him to step down from the u.s. senate. we'll bring you the latest on that next.

i recognize this will be the biggest fight yet. but as i have stated throughout this whole process, i firmly believe that when all the facts are presented not only will i be exonerated but i still will be new jersey's senior senator. >> that was new jersey democratic senator robert menendez today, resisting calls from his own party to step down in his first public remarks since he was indicted on friday alongside his wife, nadine menendez, for bribery charges. in the 39-page indictment federal prosecutors allege that menendez and his wife accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars in return for using menendez's political power to benefit the egyptian government as well as three new jersey business associates. new jersey democratic governor phil murphy as well as pennsylvania democratic senator john fetterman and just in the last hour ohio democratic senator sherrod brown have called for his resignation.

menendez did not respond today to reporters' questions about whether or not he will run for re-election. we're back with former senator claire mccaskill. what say you, my friend? >> you know, i think it's really hard for any of my former colleagues to complain about republicans not standing up to the obvious problems that donald trump has in terms of his judgment and integrity. and i don't think this is an issue of whether or not he's going to be found criminally corrupt. if you read this indictment and you understand all the facts and circumstances, and it wouldn't be in this indictment if they weren't facts, then it's his judgment. it's his ethics. it's against the law, nicolle, for somebody to buy you lunch when you're a senator. you can't go to receptions until they're stand-up receptions because the law says you can't take stuff from people. i mean, you cannot get to a

place with what we know about bob menendez and his wife's conduct and not realize he has serious ethical problems. he may well have criminal legal problems too. but this is a judgment call. and i really have no patience for anybody in my party not saying -- if we can say donald trump needs to be run out of town on a railroad because he's been indicted, then by the way, we're not going to say anything when bob menendez is indicted? that's just wrong. he should resign. >> what conversations are happening right now among your former colleagues? >> they're having the kinds of conversations that have occurred before. it is hard because you work with these people and you feel a personal connection to them. i think frankly the fact that he got a hung jury on the last --

and by the way, how do you get in this mess again after you came so close to going to prison the last time? he wasn't found not guilty. they just couldn't all agree on the verdict. so you know, how do you have $500,000 in cash around your house? i don't know who does that. and i guarantee you there's no senator that does that except maybe bob menendez. they are upset. they're worried. they have a very close margin. bob is famous for being vindictive. so i think many of them are frozen in that awkward space between it's plain as the nose on your face but he hasn't been found guilty and he deserves his day in court. >> where do you think schumer ends up? do you think there's something inevitable happening or do you think they'll stay wrapped around -- >> we'll probably know in the next week. a lot of it will depend -- what i'm going to watch for is does

everyone coalesce around kim? does the dscc say we're not going to support -- >> democratic congressman -- >> i certainly would encourage democratic donors to say we will not support the dscc if you're giving money to someone who has been indicted on something as serious as this that goes to the heart of honest public service. so if it's kim or if it's someone else, if everyone coalesces around an alternative, i don't see how bob menendez survives an election in new jersey under these circumstances. i just don't see how you do it. but then trump's got 59% -- let's not copy the republicans, folks. 59% of the republicans think trump's okay. let's make sure that we don't follow that same path. >> i know you've been in those rooms. so thank you for sort of illuminating for us the kinds of conversations that go on. you're coming back next hour. >> i am. >> what do i call it? the hotel california. you can check out but you can never, ever leave.

>> just as long as you promise not to talk about the chiefs. >> we have to -- oh, we didn't do that yet. >> if we have to talk about the chiefs -- >> shake it off and -- i love this story. i love it. and he's a moderna -- this is a deep tease. we'll do that at the end of the next hour. >> perfect. >> claire mccaskill will be back. up next donald trump making it abundantly clear that he wants to rule another term not as a democratically elected president of the united states but like an autocrat like viktor orban or vladimir putin. there's much more news straight ahead after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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retail banking in california by j.d. power. what's happening in our country today is not normal. donald trump and the maga republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic. maga republicans do not respect

the constitution. they do not believe in the rule of law. they do not recognize the will of the people. they refuse to accept the results of a free election. and they're working right now as i speak in state after state to give power to decide elections in america to partisans and cronies, empowering election deniers to undermine democracy itself. hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. it is remarkable and frankly chilling just how easy it is to envision what a second term for donald trump would look like. for all the reasons we heard there from president joe biden and from what president joe biden will say in another democracy-focused address planned for this thursday in arizona. or perhaps even more chilling is the willful ignorance of trump's republican enablers who either don't care about their own party's slide toward autocratic norms and away from democratic norms or don't have the courage to call it out.

trump's plan for another four years in office isn't exactly hidden under lock and key, buried in secret halls underneath fort knox or mar-a-lago. just the opposite. it's all out there, hanging out there. because trump himself has made it abundantly clear, he's running on it. he's running on the idea that he will and plans to and wants to rule just like an autocrat. to such a degree that the likes of viktor orban or vladimir putin might just blush. we already told you about his insinuation over the weekend that general mark milley, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, might be put to death for what trump called, quote, treason. and guess who else is guilty of country-threatening treason in trump's eyes. yours truly. this very network. along with nbc's parent company, comcast and the network of msnb last night trump suggested the news media would, quote, pay a big price if he were re-elected. for those who'd seek to check his power within the government,

trump now also wants all democratic senators to resign over the investigation and indictment of senator bob menendez. seriously. it goes without saying, this isn't about chairman milley or nbc news or msnbc or bob menendez. this is about one guy from florida who's already attempted a coup one time, who's apparently hellbent on seizing power and exacting revenge on his perceived enemies. but we can't say he didn't warn all of us out loud. >> 2024 is our final battle. with you at my side we will demolish the deep state. we will expel the warmongers from our government. we will drive out the globalists. we will cast out the communists, marxists, fascists. we will throw off the sick political class that hates our country. and we will rout the fake news media. we will defeat crooked joe

biden. and we will drain the swamp once and for all. >> we start the hour with some of our favorite friends. writer and editor for protect democracy amanda carpenter is back with us. also joining us former chief of staff at the department of homeland security miles taylor is here. political scholar princeton university professor and msnbc contributor eddie glaude is back. and the editor at large for the bulwark and msnbc contributor charlie sykes is here. charlie sykes. i don't know what the word is. is it a tear? is it a bender? claire mccaskill called trump nuts. and i think that's an insult to people who are nuts. i think that trump is telegraphing something and testing something and normalizing something that he needs in place so that when he says he's going to do he can say whoa, whoa, whoa, i told you guys i was going to arrest general milley, why are you freaking out? and then everyone in the conservative media is like oh, yeah, he told us this, guys,

it's tucked into the republican platform. i mean, this is the dangerous normalizing of autocratic maneuvers. and i don't see a lot of appropriate reaction from across the ideological spectrum. why not? >> yeah. you've made the key point that there's nothing secret about this, there's nothing stealthy about it. there's nothing ambiguous about it. he is saying what he's going to do. and i think we ought to assume this is his vision for a second term. and note how he has escalated in recent years. for people who think that, well, this is what donald trump has always been saying. in 2016 it was lock her up. and now this has moved to hang mike pence and execute general milley. the brutality is the point here. and the other thing that i think ought to be settling in as we recognize that he is trying to normalize all of this is that it's not naive to think that there will be any resistance or pushback from his fellow republicans. it's naive to believe that a

republican senator or republican house would in fact say this is going too far, this is too extreme, this is the kind of rhetoric that is dangerous, this is anti-constitutional. i mean, look, here we sit with donald trump at nearly 60% of the republican vote after having orchestrated a coup, after calling for the termination of the constitution, after being indicted four times, after stealing war plans. i mean, we run through the list. and republicans look at that and they're okay with it. and i have to say that his -- that his threat to go after the news media, to use the power of the government to retaliate against his critics in the media is of course right out of the autocratic playbook. but it's going to be a big applause line at trump rallies. the base will love this. he is -- he knows that this is the pushing the button of the conservative id right now, and he keeps moving the window of

acceptable rhetoric. and the fact that you have been talking about the rising threat of violence out there, the normalization of violence in application and where is the pushback, we're not seeing it at all. and certainly not among republicans. >> charlie, let's pick up a conversation you and i started a week ago friday about the role of the media. trump is reupping some of his dirtiest smears against the media, calling the networks of nbc and msnbc, owned by our parent company comcast, enemies of the people. again, accusing them of being against the country. your thoughts. >> well, what i suggested i think it was a week ago is the news media has not figured out how to handle donald trump. he's not a normal candidate. this is totally abnormal. and yet there is that impulse that okay, if he's the front-runner we have to cover him. yeah, you have to cover him, but do you have to give him free air time. do you have to platform his firehose of disinformation and

malice? how do you deal with someone who lies this frequently or this volubly or who poses such a threat to democratic norms? do you treat him like every other candidate? and i would have hoped that the news media would have learned something from 2016. but i'm afraid not. because we have one network after another that thinks hey, if we can get donald trump on our show that's a big ratings get, this is a good thing. well, that's the thinking that made sense perhaps in 2015 and 2016 and turned out disastrously and we're seeing the same thing all over again. >> miles, some of that comes from the fact that people think they need to understand the person who's the front-runner of the republican party. but it's important to understand that the front-runner of the republican party stands on the other side of 80% of all americans who oppose political violence. the front-runner of the republican party stands on the other side of 85% of americans who oppose extrajudicial punishments, shooting drug dealers, shooting people convicted of drug crimes. 68% of all americans stand on

the other side of the republican front-runner when it comes to choice and reproductive health care. and 85% of all americans stand on the other side of the republican front-runner when it comes to gun safety legislation. he was, i don't know, throwing around and caressing a firearm today. you can cover him, but you can't start a sentence or end a sentence without reminding people that he's been indicted for his own conduct by four different jurisdictions and that he's on the other side of 65% to 90% of the american people on every issue that people vote on. >> we are living in a master class of silence and complicity right now in our country. it's not like any of this is new. five years ago this month, nicolle, i wrote an opinion piece about how donald trump's own people thought he was incompetent and dangerous. and you know what his response was? it was a seven-letter tweet. "treason," question mark. and his supporters leaned into that.

they treat td like it was treason. that's why it was so resonant to me when i saw this piece about mark milley this weekend. is it's the same language he's been using for years against anyone who criticizes him. he assumes they're enemies of the state. and he's convinced millions of his followers that people are enemies of the state. this is autocratic rhetoric. i've spent the past couple weeks, nicolle, in eastern europe, where there's a long history of living under the threat of autocratic rulers. and i was at a dinner. and these people asked me, is trump going to be a dictator in a second term or is he just saying this? and i almost blew my top. i was like, who at this point thinks he's just saying this? yes, he will govern as a dictator. and i'm willing to submit that there's not anyone else in the united states who's asked more ex-trump officials the question that i've asked them, which is what will happen in a second term? i've asked hundreds of them that question now. and the answer is pretty much universal. he'll govern without restraint. he will govern with retribution

in mind. he will jail his opponents. he will abrogate the u.s. constitution. and what's astounding is these aren't our words. they are his words. this is the man who said he wanted to suspend the constitution. and i'm really incredibly frustrated at this point because the people who've been inside the belly of the beast are saying he will govern like an autocrat and yet you still have 50% of republicans at least saying they want him to be the nominee. he's the overwhelming favorite. and frankly, if we put someone like that back in the white house, it's tough to think that we won't deserve everything we get after that. but we need to go into it clear-eyed because it will be the end of the republic. and i believe that firmly. >> amanda, your colleague ian bassen said something on this program something that has haunted me since the minute it came out of his lips. he said -- and i think govern is too generous. i think he will rule as an autocrat would rule. but he wouldn't leave. he wouldn't be there for four years. he'd stay. what is your analysis of the

recent public musings very much in the character of a wannabe autocrat? >> i think it's very easy to get caught up in the daily stories about what trump threatens from day to day. and what is important is to fit it into a broader pattern. we often ask ourselves how come republicans aren't doing anything? a lot of it is enabling complicity. but i do think even among a broad swath of the voters there's this belief that this can't happen here. and so one of the things that we talk to a lot of experts about at protect democracy is trying to translate how authoritarians gain power in other countries and what similarities we are seeing here. because these things that donald trump is doing, they're not exclusive to him. this is how authoritarians operate. like we have a playbook. i encourage everyone to go read it. we talk about the seven things, the tactics that they employ. they stoke violence, they corrupt elections, they politicize independent

institutions, they spread disinformation, they quash dissent and they marginalize vulnerable communities. and it's like every day i can look in the news and put that story -- put those stories into a box for this check list. and we've seen this happen in other countries. we've seen orban do it. we've seen putin do it. we've seen ortega do it. and now we see it happening here. and so we ask about -- what should the news media do differently? the thing to understand about trump is not just trump. it is a movement. not a man. so i think we need to be talking to all the people that support him. it's not just elected republicans. it's a donor class. it's an activist media. it is the voters. and saying what are you doing differently with this information? i am delighted, thrilled that mark milley is speaking out and telling his story finally. but how many years did we have to wait to hear that story? and again, i thank him for going to "the atlantic" and doing this. but i am haunted by something that came at the end where he says yes, i believe trump would

throw me in jail, but i don't think he'll win. i'm not sure why mark milley is so sure. if we're not talking to people and doing things differently than we did in 2016, why are you so confident in a different outcome? i mean, please remember, this is the third time donald trump will get the presidential nomination from the republican party in three consecutive elections. that is not a mistake. it is not an accident. it is an affirmative endorsement. and unless those conditions change, i don't see a different outcome. >> amanda, let me just respectfully push back. at least what milley hid were examples of him pushing back. what mcconnell hides are examples of subservience. what mccarthy seeks to not reveal is, you know, yes, sir, sir yes, sir, i'll shut down the government. sir yes, sir i'll do -- at least what milley sought to keep private while he was the most senior military official in the united states of america representing the country around the world were examples of pushing back against an autocratic and in his view

sometimes unconstitutional leader. what mcconnell and mccarthy and all of the republicans except liz cheney and adam kinzinger are keeping secret are their subservience to trump. >> yes. i do think there's different scales. i am thankful that mark milley was there as a guardrail. but we have to recognize unless things change there will be no guardrails in a trump 2.0 zringz. you talked about the plans that they're broadcasting, talking about in plain language in the full light of day about how they want to employ loyalty tests to all political appointees and government employees rather than real experience and credentials. there will not be a mark milley in a trump 2.0 administration. you probably won't even get a bill barr in a trump 2.0 administration because loyalty will be the only qualification. >> eddie, we knew everything we needed to know about trump as a candidate. we knew when he came down the escalator and people in new york

knew even before he came down the escalator and said mexico doesn't send their best, they send their rapists and their murderers. and we knew in the first day as president when he sought to ban all muslims from entering the country, right? and i think the mistake people made is, well, i'm not from mexico, i'm not a muslim, i'll be fine. and then he came for women. right? with his appointments to the supreme court. and then he came for the media by calling all of us enemies of the people. and now he's after judges like judge chutkan and a woman's been arrested in texas for wanting to murder her. now the fbi has a special unit to protect the fbi from people who want to kill them because in trump's view he's not investigating hunter fast enough and he shouldn't investigate trump at all. fani willis has protection. she and her grand jurors and special grand jurors have been doxed and they can't take their personal addresses or their kids' addresses or their work addresses off the internet because the company that hosts them is russian. but anyone who asks about trump's affinity for ties to russia is part of the hoax. everyone was wrong in thinking

that he wouldn't come for them. he's for everyone but him. and the people he's making real fools of are his own supporters because this time he isn't even pretending to be for them. he's telling them they're for him. you are my retribution. >> right. and i think we have to try to figure out what's going on. i mean, that's what we're trying to do. there are those -- i mean, i think the people who are following him can be read as dupes but i think they also see in him a kind of avatar for their own sense of grievance and hatreds. there's that sense -- the sound you played, nicolle, of trump framing this segment. that apocalyptic language. it's the language that comes straight out of a kind of religious context. and it lets us know that for some of -- some americans this is an existential threat. so there is trump acting for

trump and then there are political nihilists who just want to get rid of government. there are those who are white supremacists. there are greedy folk who are just selfish and greedy who just want to make money. there are folks who just want to hold on to power. and they're all in this succotash, this sour gumbo as it were, and it's hard to disentangle. so trump is doing what trump is doing. but i think we need to understand very quickly that the shroud of innocence, the illusion of innocence that we're not capable of this actually shrouds the specter of violence. and unless we look it squarely in the face we'd better buckle up because whether he wins or loses we're in for a storm. it's going to intensify. >> yeah. i want to press on that. the shroud. i feel like that could have been an excuse for years 1 through 6. but i don't know that it answers for this, which is year 8. i need all of you to stick around. we'll turn to that. we'll also show you what hillary clinton had to say about the

looming specter of authoritarianism in america, both from malign actors abroad and those here at home who are using what we talked about, the dictator's playbook. plus as we learn about justice clarence thomas's history of attending donor events run by high-profile right-wing action and lobbying networks, the most outspoken voice in the united states senate on ethics reform at the supreme court will join us. and later, 2024 politics are playing out on the picket lines of michigan. democrats are embracing president joe biden's historic stand with striking uaw workers in the face of all kinds of misinformation from republicans. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. inues after a. don't go anywhere.

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my recollection is the president said something like well, we could get -- some people say we could get to the bottom of this if the department seized the machines. it was a typical way of raising a point. and i said absolutely not. there's no probable cause and i'm not going to seize any machines. >> let's take a look at another one of your notes. you also noted that mr. rosen said to mr. trump, quote, doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond to that, sir? >> he responded very quickly and said essentially that's not what i'm asking you to do, what i'm just asking you to do is just say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. since dhs had been mentioned,

the president yelled out to his secretary, get ken cuccinelli on the phone. and she did in very short order. mr. cuccinelli was on the phone. he was the number two at dhs at the time. i was on the speaker phone. and the president essentially said ken, i'm sitting here with the acting attorney general. he just told me it's your job to seize machines, and you're not doing your job. and mr. cuccinelli responded. >> we're back with amanda carpenter, miles taylor, eddie glaude and charlie sykes. miles taylor, this was -- this didn't get enough attention at the time. i think it was so shocking. i think it first broke in news accounts that trump sought to have voting machines seized. and he wanted doj -- or he wanted the pentagon to do it first and then even rudy thought that was too much. so then he turned to other agencies to have them carried out. amanda's point, and i quibble with the word guardrails. they're more like those string

bridges you see in indiana jones movies. the idea that anyone would stop him from seizing voting machines and doing all manner of thing to them and the idea that the pentagon or the department of homeland security going into a small locality and taking them is anything that any locality could stop whether it were run by a democratic election official or republican election official is ludicrous. but it is illustrative. not as something that was investigated in 2020 but as something that is probably very much on the white board for 2024 or any future opportunities he has. i wonder if you could elaborate. >> yeah. let me take you back in time on that, nicolle, because trump's claim that he could go seize voting machines was based off of something that i helped write several years earlier which was before the midterm elections in 2018 we were very worried that the russians were going to try to meddle again in u.s. elections. so we convinced the white house

and a very reluctant donald trump to sign an executive order that would have given additional authorities to federal agencies to respond decisively, to punish the russians if they interceded. and you know why donald trump was reluctant. he didn't want to punish the russians if that happened. but he signed the executive order anyway. fast-forward to 2021 -- or sorry, 2020 and then into early 2021. donald trump's lawyers misconstrued that executive order, which would have been used to defend america against foreign adversaries, to try to make the perverse legal case that it somehow gave him these powers to seize u.s. voting machines. one, it was a completely wrong reading of the executive order. but two, it was as you say, nicolle, an illustrative example of how they would play a game of legal twister to try to give the president of the united states extraordinary, almost dictatorial powers. and it's not a hypothetical

because when i've talked to folks that were around him in that time period toward the end of the administration there was a desire to go above and beyond what his authority said he was allowed to do. and in the second term i have trump's own people saying to me that in a second term he would go send u.s. forces, he would go domestic homeland security forces into u.s. cities to go to polling places, to intimidate voters, to examine the machines. don't think this is a hypothetical. this will happen if donald trump's back in power. and they can bubble-wrap it in legalese and have it tied up in the courts for a long, long time before it's ever resolved. and they'll have done the damage to the constitution and the american republic anyway. but this time the playbook won't be haphazard. they are writing that playbook. they've got think tanks working on that playbook. and they've got people that they're ready to staff into a second trump term that will carry out those orders. >> eddie, it strike me as -- we

use the phrase ironic slash sick. the people who benefit the most inside a democracy and by the constitution are those most willing to burn it down. i mean, old white men do pretty great under the constitution and living in our democracy. but it's republican senator mike lee of utah who said, not that important. there are some things that are more important than a democracy. you have donald trump who said on the record, mm, constitution, shmonstitution. these guys have nothing really to complain about. they haven't fought for their place in any of the structures of american democracy. they don't fight for status. and yet they're the ones that want to burn it to the ground. >> yeah. but they feel that -- many of them feel that there's an existential threat to the very character of the country, that the country that made them possible is no more. so you know, there's this moment in the 1920s when the american

legion invites mussolini to give the keynote address to its national convention. and the backdrop of course is eastern european migration. the backdrop of course is this nativism and this deep-seated racism. right? so there's this sense in this moment, nicolle, that there are a large swath of americans who believe that they're losing the country, that they have lost their footing. we talked about bidenomics and we think about policy, we think about trump. no, there's something really, really visceral, it's in the gut, that we have to face. and you know, i'm thinking about james baldwin. nothing can be changed unless it's faced. right? until it's faced. and that's just key. so you're right. but we have to get into the mindset that they think they're losing the country. >> so amanda, i think eddie sort of hit on it as he often does. it's visceral. it's in the gut. where is the visceral gut piece

of this very important sevenpiece matrix we can lay over -- and i agree with you. you can lay over every single news cycle with things that are happening in this country that are much bigger than a rant or a tweet or a filing or an appearance or non-appearance. but what is the way to hit people in the gut with what's at stake right now? >> well, i am loath to rank any of our seven categories, but i have to say that the relentless thirst to stoke violence in this country is something that i haven't seen in my lifetime and never thought i would anticipate. i mean, it seems like a throwback from something that happened somewhere far -- somewhere else far away. and while i am very focused on what could happen in a trump 2.0 administration, i think a lot of good reporting is right to be focused there, i do think there is kind of a blind spot of what happens in november 2024 if trump doesn't win. i mean, we had the attack on january 6th in the wake of trump's loss because his voters,

his base did not accept the election results. so how can we ensure that people will accept the election results in november 2024? i'm not sure. we talk about the big lie of the 2020 election. i think the next big lie is already in the making. the way that trump goes to his voters and has sold the idea that these indictments are somehow emblematic of weaponization of government being wielded against him to stop him from winning the next election is taking hold. and it's taking hold with a lot of elected republicans in congress who soet up weaponization committees or are sendinging out subpoenas to anyone and everyone pretty much for whatever they like. and there's no consequences for doing so. they can have investigation after investigation turn up nothing and just start another investigation to move on with the show. and so i don't -- even if biden wins by let's say a landslide in november 2024, how does the violence stop? i'm not sure what makes this go

away as long as people are still being sold on these very stirring ideas, that the government is out to get them, doesn't represent them, and they have to fight for their country in order to survive. >> haunting. a really important conversation. amanda carpenter, miles taylor, eddie glaude, thank you. charlie sticks around for the rest of the hour. when we come back, one of the most prominent advocates for ethics reform at the supreme court reacts to the latest developments in that drip, drip, drip of ethical questions being raised through investigative journalistic reports about justice clarence thomas. senator sheldon whitehouse of rhode island will be our guest after a very short break. stay with us. stay with us what causes a curve down there? is it peyronie's disease? will it get worse? how common is it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing. start talking to a specialized urologist. because it could be peyronie's disease, or pd. it's a medical condition where there is a curve in the erection, caused by a formation of scar tissue. and an estimated 1 in 10 men may have it.

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a new piece of reporting we brought you here on friday simply adds to the extensive list of questionable secret practices and relationships of supreme court justice clarence thomas and concerns about ethics and influence by our nation's highest court. it was first report bid propublica that justice thomas made at least two undisclosed appearances at at least two donor summits hosted by the powerful right-wing koch network that has for decades now brought several cases before the supreme court including one of the most closely watched in the upcoming term. joining our conversation is democratic senator from rhode island and member of the senate judiciary committee, senator sheldon whitehouse. he also continues to be one of

the most prominent voices demanding through legislation and briefs a code of ethics for the supreme court. we wish you were here when this story broke. we had the reporter and other court watchers. but i know you've had a lot to say about these issues and these clear conflicts. they seem to be growing more clear and more brazen to the general public and i wonder if you think that's creating an opportunity. >> yeah, i think it is. each one of these episodes is pretty disgraceful all by itself. but as you see them in series, you begin to see the commonalities that emerge across the series. you begin to see that it's always a right-wing billionaire, that it's always a right-wing justice, that leonard leo, the ubiquitous little court fixer is almost inevitably involved, that it always involves a federalist society or ginni thomas's little charity or the americans for prosperity battleship of the koch brothers.

and while every single one doesn't have every one of these pieces, when you stack them all up over and over again it's the same little network of a few right-wing billionaires. i think we're up to six right now. and a few right-wing justices, two we've discovered so far, and the front groups that intermediate between the billionaires and the right-wing justices. and as you said, it involves actual cases. so this is for real. and the technique that the justices are applying right now is simply no answering of questions, i'm just going to pretend everything is fine, there's no process for fact finding, there's no investigative effort whatsoever. so i think that's what's going to have to break. and i think it probably will break either through the judicial conference with real judges who are getting fed up or perhaps even through the court itself or if it continues to get this bad through my legislation. >> i want to read from the new

amicus brief in the lober case and have you sort of explain and translate this. you filed this last week with several of your colleagues. and it says this. "the trump administration's efforts had the full support of charles and david koch, two of the biggest financial backers of the effort to elect offic holders committed to degution. of course the fossil fuel-funded koch network stands to gain from deregulation. hence the presence of so many koch-connected amicus supporting petitioners in this case. the pivot of so many groups to attack chevron and thereby transfer power from agencies to judges follows this long effort within the courts." this is something that dahlia lithwick brought to life and translated for us non-supreme court experts. but this really is of vital importance to nothing less than the government's ability to function. can you give us some context to this? >> yeah, the backdrop to this is that years ago these right-wing billionaires determined that the

supreme court was a really good way to accomplish their goals because it wasn't politically responsive. so they could get justices who would do things that the public would hate that even republican legislators would not do. so they began this long process of trying to get rid of american regulation, particularly if you're a fossil fuel polluter all those regulations interfere with your profits in a very, very big way. and so they built doctrines and they appointed judges and they put money behind getting them on the court and they created front groups to file briefs telling the judges what to do in the court. and then they've had this massive string of victories like the west virginia versus epa case which completely changed the law about what regulatory agencies can and cannot do. so the problem of these justices accepting these grotesque favors from right-wing billionaires is one piece in this larger

tapestry of right-wing billionaires controlling who got on the court, sending messages to the court about what to do and producing a court that will do things to america that the democratic process would not do. >> the united states supreme court right now has -- is held in the lowest esteem since gallup has been asking the question. the public is convinced -- >> yeah, deservedly. >> propublica has done a body of investigative journalism. not a single contradicting fact has been produced by any of the justices or any of the billionaires you're talking about. it seems that the facts are being developed, the public is convinced. what is the -- what stands between change and the justices' inability to do anything to preserve its own -- the court's own integrity doesn't seem to matter to the justices themselves, i guess is what i'm trying to ask you. how do we help them help themselves? >> yeah. well, a couple of ways. i think one of the better ways

is to continue to urge the judicial conference, the administrative body that runs the judicial branch of government, which is made up almost entirely of chief judges from the circuit courts of appeal and from several district courts. there's only one supreme court justice on it. and part of their job is to run the disciplinary apparatus over their federal judges. so they know really well what's legitimate and what's not legitimate for conduct and what's legitimate and what's not legitimate for excuses. and they know perfectly well that both the conduct and the excuses of the supreme court justices is not legitimate. so the pressure there is beginning to build. and i think the pressure in the court is beginning to build. you've now had kavanaugh and the chief justice and kagan all say hey, we know we need to fix this and we're working on it. so continued pressure, continued exposure. the thing that's missing here, nicolle, is that nobody will come up with real facts.

the only place in all of government where if you've got a complaint about an official there's no place to go where anybody will do an honest job of finding out what the facts are. so the justices make it up or they simply go into silence and refuse to speak, and we're deprived of knowing what the story is. i think in many cases what we'll find is that the story's a good deal worse even than what propublica has revealed. >> yeah. i mean, that even pertains to a leak that they seemingly were upset about themselves that they didn't turn over to anyone with any actual leak investigation experience. i have to ask you, because i have you and because it's in the news, your thoughts and your position on calls from two of your fellow democratic senators for democratic senator robert menendez to step down. >> i've been a u.s. attorney. i've been in the shoes of the new york prosecutor. i don't think that it really matters to them very much what

members of congress say. and my very strong inclination is to let the judicial process play out and let justice be done. >> a true separation of the branches. public official. sheldon whitehouse, thank you very much. we'll stay on this story and we really appreciate getting to talk to you about all these extraordinary investigative stories. thank you very much for joining us today. >> thank you. ahead for us, president joe biden is set to make an historic visit to michigan to the picket lines tomorrow to stand alongside and next to strike uaw workers. it is a stark contrast to the posturing we're seeing emerge on the far right. we'll bring you that story next. .

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i think the uaw gave up an incredible amount back when the automobile industry was going under. they gave everything from their pensions on. and they saved the automobile industry. and i think that now that the industry is roaring back they should -- they should participate in the benefit of that. and i can take a look at the significant increase in salaries for the executives and growth of the industry. they should benefit from it. so yes, i support -- i always support the uaw. >> that was president joe biden late this afternoon on his support for the uaw ahead of his trip tomorrow to the picket line in michigan, where he will be the first sitting president in

more than 100 years to visit a strike. it's a symbolic and historic win for the labor movement in this country that also saw progress with the writers' strike ending overnight as the wga and studios reached a tentative agreement. back with me at the table, former senator from missouri and msnbc political analyst claire mccast kohl. charlie sykes is here as well. claire, what say you? >> well, this is a jump ball in terms of how it's going to turn out for president biden. it could go either way. if they get a deal and it looks like they're moving that way because it looks like ford has moved and the canadian union settled with ford over the weekend, so that strike went away. so those canadian facilities facilities are up and running the ford facilities. then biden looks strong. if this goes on a long time, it's going to have a dramatic impact on frankly a ripple effect on the entire economy, and it's going to make people feel like somehow, you know, it's the fault of whoever's in

charge. so i think it's important he go there. i think it's important that he be a little more aggressive about exposing what a phoney bologna act it is on trump's part. trump is anti-union. >> totally. >> he wouldn't even pay the people when worked for him, and they're going to let this guy speak to them and walk a picket line with them, when he's famous for trying to screw over the people, the hard working people that were installing cabinets and flooring and all of the things in the places that he built. so he's not in favor of unions. he's just looking for a political opportunity to put on a stunt, and i hope that -- i know the leadership of uaw is smart enough to call him out. i hope that joe biden is aggressive in calling him out to the members also. >> i mean, charlie, this is one of the great sort of political jiu-jitsus that trump pulled off in '16. i went to pennsylvania. i spent a lot of time in erie,

spent a lot of time all over michigan, he had a lot of support. to claire's point, he has a record of being against the vast majority of things they care about. >> claire is absolutely right. this is a high-risk move by joe biden, but it is a smart political move because otherwise you are conceding this battleground. there has been erosion of support for joe biden among the working class. and as absurd as it is, he of the golden toilets can be a pop list hero, he has made end roads and sees it as a way of driving a wedge, to pretend he is an ally of the working man. joe biden showing up tells me that he is not going to cede that ground to donald trump, and i also agree, though, he needs to be more aggressive in calling out the fake populism. this is going to be an ongoing

push and pull. the labor movement in the working class has long been a crucial part of the democratic coalition. it's been eroding and joe biden is basically signaling that he's going to fight for it. >> claire mccaskill and charlie sykes, thank you for coming back for this conversation. we'll keep an eye on this all week. another break for us, we'll be right back. another break for us, we'll be right back >> customer: thank you so much. >> tech vo: schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! uuuhhhh... here, i'll take that! woohoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar. enter the $10,000 powered by protein max challenge. ♪ ♪ (pensive music) (footsteps crunching) (pensive music) (birds tweeting)

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a touchdown for kelce. >> the clash of the cultural icons, or not clash, the union. what was that? >> yeah, it's kind of fun, and it is just fun. before people get upset, let's remember that he is working to try to get people vaccinated, and he repped bud light at a time that was a perilous time for him in his career, and she's busy getting young people to register to vote. these are people that have value, and they're very talented what they do, and you know, anybody who's going to hate on them, they're going to shake it off because haters are going to hate hate hate hate hate. >> i love you. you can talk about prosecutions, talk about political violence, and quote taylor swift. >> and kelce gets open. >> his brother keeps leaking about whether or not it's a romance. whatever it is, i hope they're happy. >> me too. >> another break for us. we'll be right back. ack.

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