>> donald trump's civil fraud trial getting under way any moment now inside this manhattan courthouse. the former president you can see is on site. he and his entourage arrived several minutes ago. at the crux of this trial are the allegations that he, his sons and his family empire committed fraud by manipulating property values to their benefit for years. here is new york attorney general leticia james just minutes ago. >> donald trump and the other defendants have committed persistent and repeated fraud. last week we proved that in our motion for summary judgment. today we will prove our other claims. my message is simple. no matter how powerful you are,

no matter how much money you think you may have, no one is above the law. >> so trump in his comments as he continues to talk to the media there, is calling her racist, calling this the biggest witch hunt of all time. let's bring in our guests and analysts to talk more about what we can expect in this trial. nbc's vaughn hillyard is outside the courthouse. also joining us, assistant manhattan district attorney catherine christian and civil attorney danny cevallos. vaughn, tell us what we can expect to happen in court today in terms of the trial kicking off. >> we'll wait to see if any witnesses are brought forward. you see donald trump standing alongside alina habba, his legal spokeswoman. you see jason miller, his campaign senior advisor. just out of frame we saw his lead attorney on this case, chris kise who just met attorney

general letitia james inside the courthouse. they briefly exchanged pleasantries and shook hands. leticia james was joined by other prosecutors in the office. we don't expect her to be the one presenting this case day to day. we don't expect donald trump to be here day to day. this trial can last into december, three months, if it should take that long. there's a long list of witnesses that will potentially come forward here. we're listening to donald trump. he's calling this is a witch hunt. this is a man who had the opportunity when he sat for a deposition with the attorney general's office to answer numerous questions and answer the allegations laid out in this lawsuit. instead, he pled the fifth. more than 400 times to be precise. when i actually asked him on friday when i was with him on the campaign trail in los angeles about one of the alleged

overinflation of his assets, he demurred. i asked him specifically about his trump tower residency in midtown manhattan which he estimated the size to be 30,000 square feet instead of 10,000 square feet and placed the value at $327 million which is three times the amount of any apartment sold in new york history. take a listen to my attempt to ask him about that specific example. >> why did youoverstated the size of your apartment by 20,000 square feet? >> just for you know, it's a rigged deal. my financial statements are much lower than the actual net worth. the judge and your fake attorney general from new york who is driving business out, who is letting murderers run all over the city. they don't do anything to murderers running all over the city, the attorney general is a racist, leticia james, she ought to be ashamed --

>> again, ana, instead of donald trump defending himself and addressing the allegations against him, he's repeatedly attacked the new york attorney general, leticia james. he's called on both she and the judge to resign. while donald trump often does the attacking on the campaign trail, inside the courtroom it will be up to his attorney, chris kise, to ae fend defend him over the course of the next three months. >> danny, we already know the judge in this case came out and said it's a fact, trump and his business, they committed fraught repeatedly. there is proof of this. so given that ruling already came down, what is left to be ruled upon at this trial? >> it's understandable it's a little confusing. basically this is akin to a judge ruling on the issue of liability, taking that out of the actual fact-finding portion of the case. what makes it even more confusing is there is no jury.

the judge didn't really take any issues away from the jury. the judge took issues away from the judge. in ruling essentially that the statements of financial condition were false and, therefore, fraudulent, mostly what remains, although there are some issues as to the defendant's state of mind that remain to be resolved, really what this is about is it's like a damages trial at this point. the amount of the penalty and that case is being tried to a jury, really a judge, that has already indicated what his opinion of of the defense in his opinion, which i think any reasonable mind could say excoriated the defense, highly critical of the defense. if you're the defense going into this trial, you're not feeling confident about your chances against a fact-finder, the judge, who already signaled he doesn't think much of the defense. >> as you are speaking, trump is attacking the judge. does that help his case, katherine? >> no, it doesn't. that's what he does.

the attorney general of new york state has no jurisdiction overstreet crimes or homicides. when he says she's letting murderers go loose, that's not her job. this is what he does. it's not going to impress the judge. the judge will be fair and impartial and will just ignore whatever he says. i'm sure mr. trump is going to be sitting in the courtroom scowling at the judge and the judge will ignore that. this lawsuit seeks $250 million, i understand, potential cancellation of his businesses is already happening. can you help us understand how they arrived at that number, katherine, the $250 million number as well as the bigger stakes? >> it's actually called discouragement which is legalese for the attorney general wants the trump organization to pay back the $250 million that they allegedly unjustly received by inflating the value of their

properties. they got favorable loans, favorable insurance premiums. the new york state executive law allows the attorney general to seek that. she still has to, as danny said, prove that she's deserving of that. there's other claims, did they issue false financial statements. >> insurance fraud. >> insurance fraud. that's why this trial is happening, for the attorney general's office to prove to the judge that's what happened and, therefore, please exact this penalty of $250 million to repay the state. >> danny, so interesting that trump is still talking right now, it's 10:06. he's been going for several minutes. the hearing is supposed to get under way at 10:00. he's outside the courtroom. people inside the courtroom are silent. they can hear what he's saying. your reaction to what we're witnessing. >> it's begging for trouble. on the defense team, it's another palm-to-the-forehead

moment. you want your client not to do anything to shoot your case in the footment he may be doing that by holding court outside the courtroom when the judge may want to get everybody going and get the case started. you don't want to be last into the courtroom if everybody is lined up, including the judge and his staff waiting for you. >> why isn't his attorney over his shoulder there pulling him in? >> the answer to that is most likely at this stage, almost a decade into trump having attorneys he has now hand-selected attorneys, you know if you're defending trump, you're not going to put your hand on his shoulder when he's stating his case and say, mr. trump, time for court. you may want it to happen. in fact, i suspect in those retainer agreements are plenty of disclaimers saying, we're your attorneys, we'll make recommendations to you. if you fail to follow them, it's at your own risk. this is a client who doesn't listen. as a criminal defense attorney,

our business is full of clients who don't listen to good advice. that's why they need criminal defense attorneys in the first place. so this is not unusual. this happens all the time. every criminal defense attorney out there, every civil defense attorney out there has had a client who doesn't listen to advise. donald trump is one of them. again, i just want to add, too, if donald trump is criticizing the judge for being biased, i'm going to say this, it may be the case that justice goran is biased by the defendant. the key is he biased based on outside influence? no. during the course of the case, sometimes judges form opinions about the strengths and weaknesses of the party's case. that happens. it's obviously happened here. he's developed an opinion, it runs about 30 pages on the summary judgment. >> he called their defense fantasy world. >> exactly.

this happens all the time. plenty of judges have formed the opinion that some of my choices throughout a case have been not good ones. that may lead you to think, oh, this judge has id out for me. i've admittedly felt that way throughout a case. i don't know if katherine has ever felt that way. it happens to attorneys. it doesn't mean a judge is biased in an improper way against you. it does sometimes feel like the world is against you. that's just a little bit of attorney paranoia. donald trump should know just because the judge doesn't think much of his case doesn't mean he's truly biased in the sense that he should recuse himself. >> this is video we're playing back outside the courtroom moments ago. we did see him go in. the doors closed behind him. our reporter in the courtroom says he walked in looking solemn, walked right by attorney general james. katherine, we talked about the judge being the decider here. this is not a more familiar jury trial. explain why the bench trial

route is going? >> donald trump and his lawyers chose a bench trial. sometimes you do that as a defendant because you believe the jury will be so tainted by bad publicity that they won't follow the facts and the law, so you choose a judge. it's interesting that now donald trump is criticizing that very judge. he didn't choose the judge. he chose to have a judge trial. you don't get to choose your own judge in new york or basically anywhere. so that is why. quite frankly, as danny said, you can have a judge that throughout a trial will chop you to pieces as an attorney and rule in your favor at the end. it doesn't mean because last week he granted a motion for summary judgment, that he will find that the attorney general has met their burden for these other courses of action.

>> there are agents aligning the perimeter around him, around the courtroom, in the back. of course, trump is a former president. it requires a different level of security. danny, he didn't have to be in court in person for this. so what do you make of the fact he chose to show up? >> in civil cases, a party doesn't actually have to be present for all stages the way a defendant is expected to be present at every day of a criminal trial. this not a criminal trial. it feelsz like one because you have the attorney general on one side -- people often and probably think of a state attorney general as primarily a criminal justice agency. it's really not. that's not the role that letitia james is playing in this case. sometimes strategically there's a good reason to not have a civil defendant in the courtroom every day. but donald trump is likely here not for any legal reason, not

for any strategic legal tactical reason but for his own likely political campaign purposes to make a scene, to make a show like he just did in front repor. but there really isn't any need for him to be here. maybe his attorneys have made a recommendation as to how often he should be present at his civil trial. whether or not he's following their advice, who knows? >> i wonder if he'll take the stand. vaughn, the a.g. signaled she plans to call him along with his sons eric and don jr. to testify. should we expect them to take the stand? who else is on this witness list? >> reporter: the initial witness list we expect to be called by the attorney general is 25-people long, in the situation where they have the opportunity to rebuttal there's additional witnesses they can bring forward. don jr., eric and ivanka are all on this witness list. over the summer ivanka was dropped as a defendant. the two sons who continued to

serve in vice president capacities of the trump organization through his presidency remain defendants as well as the trump organization. the other names are michael cohen who really led to this investigation from the new york attorney general back in march of 2019 when you can say he flipped on donald trump and began to make the claims publicly and under oath in front of congress that he while working for the trump organization and at the direction of donald trump inflated the estimations and value of their assets. it was michael cohen who has cooperated repeatedly with new york attorney general leticia james to provide evidence that ultimately led to the lawsuit against him. the other big name to pay attention to is allan weisselberg who first began working with donald trump's dad, fred trump, back in 1973.

you eelecall just over last who part of a federal case for tax fraud brought by the southern district of new york, district attorney alvin bragg, he agreed to a plea agreement on 15 counts ranging from grand lars see, tax fraud, to falsifying business records. he served several months at rikers jail on those charges. now, as part of his testimony and part of his plea agreement related to the charges against him, he did testify against him against the trump organization, but he refused to directly testify against donald trump himself. ultimately prosecutors went forward with the plea agreement under those terms. but one of the parts of his acknowledgment when he sat down with the new york attorney general's office was as it pertained to the midtown manhattan apartment complex, trump tower, where they

estimated the size to be 30,000 square feet instead of 10,000. as part of his deposition he acknowledged they stated the value of that apartment -- overstated it by over $200 million. allen weisselberg has been a key defender and loyal supporter of donald trump now for decades, when he takes the stand here in this trial could be that very important witness because of what he knows and a potential to validate the climbs that michael cohen has made and the new york attorney general laid as the foundation of her lawsuit against donald trump, his children and the family's company, ana. >> so far just now inside the courtroom the judge considered a motion to grant cameras in the courtroom for opening statements and closing arguments. he has denied that request. catherine, does that surprise you he isn't going to allow cameras for those portions of this trial? >> every judge is different.

i know judges who believe it should be open. the only thing you don't show are the jurors or obviously in a rape case or something like that you don't show the victim. this is this particular's judge -- on a case like this, which involves a former president, you should be as open as you can. there's no issues here of showing a jury. it's just a judge and the witnesses. it would be completely appropriate. that's in his discretion. new york allows judges in their discretion to do it or not. >> the judge is allowing some still photography inside the courtroom. going back to whether trump will take the stand, danny, again, you're a defense attorney? could he be compelled? will he have to take the stand? >> this is a civil case. even if he takes the stand, he may try to invoke the fifth amendment if he's compelled to speak on something that could expose him to criminal liability. so that is something he has to be very mindful of. this is a criminal case, no way to call the defendant to the

stand by the state. going back to what you were asking about cameras, really interesting thing. throughout history, as cameras have developed in court, there's a huge difference between allowing them in civil cases and in criminal cases. much less likely to affect a sixth amendment right to a fair trial in a civil case than a criminal case. even the federal course which have long banned cameras completely, even allow them in a trial -- a test trial several years back for civil cases only -- even the federal courts who have long been against cameras in the courtroom actually warmed to the idea. after that test pilot program, a few districts actually continued with cameras in the courtroom. i believe it included even the district of guam, if i'm remembering right. interestingly enough, cameras in the courtroom a little more acceptable in civil cases than in criminal cases. this is one that arguably the public interest is certainly such that we should be watching it. >> so i was just thinking about

how trump keeps on using his defense, that this is election interference, the culmination of all these cases that he's now facing including the criminal cases. this, again, just a civil case. i'm reminded that this really was sparked -- this investigation was sparked in 2019 by the comments michael cohen made when he was testifying before congress talking about trump inflating and undervaluing his assets when it served his own purposes. that's what he alleged when he testified under oath. yesterday here on msnbc, catherine, cohen was back on our air. and he said based on where we're at in this case with the ruling that happened last week saying, yes, they committed fraud, business certificates are on their way out, that this could be a death blow to the former president's businesses. what do you think? >> definitely. if he loses this trial and then loses on appeal, which it will be appealed if he loses the trial, this will be the end of

the trump organization, the trump business in new york state. if the attorney general wins, she's requesting that he, trump, and his two co-defendant sons be permanently barred from being a director or officer of any business in new york state, be barred from engaging in any commercial real estate transactions for five years. they're real estate guys. so this will be the end of his business as he knows it. that's why, quite frankly, he's there, one, for politics, but this case is very, very important to him. no, he won't be imprisoned because there is no conviction. but it will end the trump identity as being a successful businessman, this new york businessman. it's a big deal if he loses this case. >> today is day one of this trial. danny, how long could it last? >> it could last months. there's a very long witness list. but this is a bench trial. those move with lightning speed compared to a jury trial.

consider if this was a jury trial, you'll have to fill the room and actually find a jury in new york county that doesn't have some strong preconceived idea about donald trump such that they couldn't serve as a juror. that alone could take weeks, maybe even months. we're going to see that in donald trump's separate criminal case here in new york county, the challenges of coming up with a jury. then you add to that the security of all those people, the members of the public, the jury pool with a former president and secret service, that would add layers of complexity, just moving them in and out of the courtroom. of course, jury trials just move slower. there's a motion. the judge has to excuse the jury, bring the attorneys up to the bench, discuss it. none of that is going to happen. bench trials are streamlined because you don't have the complexities of the jury, and the judge gets it. look for opening and closing statements to be a lot shorter than they otherwise would be. candidly, you can save the

theatrics. the judge has seen it. you don't need a lot of extra verbiage. you can cut straight to the issues for the judge. in fact, with a judge -- >> the judge has a full grasp of the law. >> exactly right. >> judge goran moves fast. that's his reputation in new york. >> this is the first look inside the courtroom. now we all see what's happening inside there as this trial gets under way. there's d.a. james sitting there -- actually not at the front table. that's kind of interesting. >> no, she's not trying the case. she's sitting behind her attorneys. >> attorney general leticia james. thank you so much. there you see former president trump next to his attorney. that's chris kise, who we expect to make the opening statements here, and then is judge an goran. he's awaiting the start of this trial. that was just the brief moment

we were allowed to get a snapshot with our pool camera inside the courtroom. let's go back to our vaughn hillyard who is standing by outside. give us an update on what we're hearing from our reporting inside the courtroom, vaughn. >> reporter: inside the courtroom they're currently going back and forth over the extent to which cameras are allowed. the judge determined there is going to be no live broadcast of the opening or closing statements, but they did allow the pool camera, as you said, that means one camera. that is shared with all the other news organizations, was allowed to go in and shoot at least these preliminary shots. there are also five pool still photographers that will be in there to document these proceedings. we know when donald trump walked in, according to our producer in the courtroom, he had his head down as we walked down and walked to his seat. he walked past leticia james, the new york attorney general,

without acknowledging her presence. he's seated next to lead attorney chris kise, but also the likes of alina habba who has been serving in the capacity of spokeswoman for his legal team over the course of the summer. for donald trump there is a lot at stake here. we do not anticipate he's going to necessarily come in for many days of this trial. he doesn't have to be here today. donald trump has outwardly run a defiant campaign, one in which he has attacked the indictments and the charges and the lawsuits against him. attacked the judge who you saw in that video, has attacked the prosecutors, those who are a part of leticia james' team. one of the examples laid out in the lawsuit from the attorney general is the trump hotel. when hep bought the trump hotel years ago in washington, d.c., he received a favorable loan, according to the allegations of

the new york attorney general, and was able to purchase it for $175 million. upon leaving the white house he sold it for $375 million, being able to pull in a $200 million profit and suggesting if it weren't for him being able to receive these favorable loans and inflating his own net worth by billions of dollars in his words, he wouldn't have been able to be in a position to get these loan guarantees from the banks. so for leticia james this is taking a direct shot at the business empire that his family has over seen for more than a century now. for donald trump, he has properties not only here in manhattan but across the country. the business empire that he and his family built up over the last 100 years is now on the stand along with donald trump and his two sons. >> vaughn, you've been travelling the country covering trump's events as he campaigns

for 2024. what do you see the significance of him being seen now inside this courtroom when it comes to the politics of this moment? >> donald trump is holding himself up as a martyr of the political and legal system. it's an important distinction, ana, over the last several weeks particularly when i've been going to campaign events around the country from iowa to south dakota, iowa, california, los angeles where he was on friday when i joined him, you're seeing folks wear shirts that have his mugshot from fulton county with the words "never surrender." for donald trump, when he takes the campaign stage, again, without answering any of the serious allegations in the criminal and civil suits and cases against him, he's suggesting that this is nothing more than a witch hunt by democratic prosecutors. and for donald trump, you've seen his poll numbers rise.

he had about a 15 percentage point advantage over ron desantis back this spring when he was indicted for the first time in the new york hush money case in manhattan. since then he's looking at national percentage point leads of anywhere from 30 to 40 percentage points over his next-close el rivals. for donald trump, i've talk to a great many of his supporters who told me they were eyeing towards potentially looking towards an alternative and moving on from donald trump. when in their eyes he has been so targeted by these prosecutors and that indictments and lawsuits have been filed against him, they feel because donald trump has told them in large part the reason they're coming after him is because he announced his run for president again. we should note in this particular case, the important distinction is that the new york attorney general brought this case, ana, back in september of 2022. that's when she announced her

lawsuit. he announced his run for 2024 presidency in november. his supporters, millions across the country, view this as nothing more than an effort to cripple him politically and keep him from seeking the presidency, if he were to be sentenced to prison time. also in this particular financial fraud case brought by the new york attorney general's office, an effort to financially cripple him and his family because business certificates stripped from him and businesses all but shuttered in new york, donald trump's political dynasty would come to an end. folks have told me, once donald trump is finished running for office, they would like to see don jr. run for office. so donald trump and his family have much greater stakes han donald trump's own 2024 presidential run, ana. >> we saw the trump campaign put out this fund-raising blast. they've seen some of these moments in his legal challenges

that have come up along the course of the campaign so far be big fund-raising moments for their campaign where they've had a bursz in donations. so this latest fund-raising email says the democrats have ripped my civil rights straight from ply hands and now a they're trying to impose the corporate death penalty upon me. your reaction to this, catherine? >> well, that's one of the reasons why he's there. he uses every one of his cases, the indictments and the civil case as a campaign to -- he thinks it helps his campaign. at least he says he thinks so, that it helps. the same thing here. going back to why this trial should probably be televised is because the public will see that it's not rigged, that the judge is not biased against mr. trump. so instead of him coming out or

his lawyers or his spokes people coming out and spinning it in a different way. so this is all part of -- he thinks this is all part of his campaign and this will help his campaign. >> we just got word that the judge is saying december 22nd should be the end date of this trial. we were discussing, danny, just a few minutes ago, how long this trial could last. the judge already has an end date. >> he means it. >> there's an old saying, people plan, god laughs. you can set trial dates. you can set the end dates. there's always a very harrowing moment before every trial where the judge turns to each side and says how long do you need, right? i hate that moment because you can't possibly predict how long your case is going to take, especially the defense side which is largely reactive to what the prosecution or what the plaintiff is going to put on. so, yes, the judge may set an end date. he may mean it. but things happen. is that a reasonable forecast? maybe, but something could come up that we just don't even

anticipate, witnesses' availability, travel issues, all kinds of things. so good forecast. i wouldn't necessarily bet on that being an absolute hard date. i know he means his timelines when he says them. things happen. >> we continue to play this clip. this is all we have from inside the courtroom. that's all the judge would allow in this case, up to this point at least. we have seen, again and again, the attorney general there, leticia james, inside the courtroom. she's not giving the opening statement on behalf of her office today. in fact, we're told that should be kevin wallace. why do you think she's there? >> how important this case is to the attorney general's office, and as she would say, to the state of new york. you'll often see that. d.a.s will show up if it's a very big, important case. i'm sure alvin bragg when the hush money case is tried, he'll be in the audience. that's the same reason why the

attorney general is there. it's also to give support to the attorneys in her office. she's standing there. she's making it clear that this was her decision, she brought this case, and if mr. trump is going to trash attorneys, her way is, trash me, i'm the elected official here. it's a statement of how important she views this case. >> of course, she has been the target of many trump attacks including when he was making the remarks right before this calling her a racist. >> all black prosecutors are racist according to donald trump. >> what are your thoughts about that and how she's endured these attacks? >> she's just letting it go. this is what trump does. what people don't know about letitia james, she's a trial attorney. she started her career in manhattan has a public defender. she was in court probably every day. she tried cases. i tried a case against her. so this is someone who is very

accomplished. she knows how to try a case. so she's picked what she believes are stellar people to try this case on behalf of the attorney general's office. his comments do not affect her or any, quite frankly, of the other pro can you tellers are are prosecuting him. >> catherine christian, thank you. danny and vaughn, stay close. we'll continue to monitor what's happening in the courtroom now that opening statements are under way. next, another big story breaking today. shutdown averted, for now at least. will the cost for speaker mccarthy be his job? that's next. r mccarthy be his job? that's next. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting

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join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. welcome back. a government shutdown has been averted for now after a last-minute deal on capitol hill over the weekend. the big question today, could it cost house speaker kevin mccarthy his job? republican congressman matt

gaetz says he's prepared to force repeated votes to oust mccarthy because he worked with democrats on this deal. here they are trading words yesterday. >> i do intend to file a motion to vacate against speaker mccarthy this week. i think we need to rip off the band-aid. i think we need to move on with new leadership that can be trustworthy. >> this is personal with matt. matt voted against the most conservative ability to protect the border, secure our border. he's more interested in securing tv interviews than doing something. so be it. bring it on. let's get over with it and start governing. >> nbc's ali vitali from capitol hill, also new york democrat joe crowley and florida republican carlos curbelo. thank you all for being here. ali, what exactly is gaetz threatening to do and how rare is this? >> reporter: he's threatening to do what he's been threatening all along which is oust the

speaker. he's able to do that because of the agreements that mccarthy made to get this job in the first place. i'll take you back to january during the 15 rounds of balloting. these were some of the concessions mccarthy was making with some of the hard line conservatives in his party to get the job. it included critical seats on things like the rules committee, promises on how they'd do various budget and spending panel kajs. that's at play here. of course, giving any one of his members the ability to launch a motion to vacate. matt gaetz said explicitly on the floor, if mccarthy looks towards democrats and does this in bipartisan fashion, he was going to launch a motion to vacate. now you see mccarthy, perhaps emboldened by the fact that he tried a bunch of different avenues to get a shutdown averted just within his own party, people including gates, but not just limited to him, continued to thwart that. mccarthy had to do this end run on saturday morning pretty much surprising democrats, but

ultimately they helped him to get this over the finish line. of course, more democrats voting to avoid a shutdown than republicans at the end of the day. this is always where it was going to end up. i do feel if it wasn't on this one, it would be for another reason, that gaetz would finally have to make good on the threats he's been making. the open question is, a, if it will succeed. b, if democrats will help mccarthy, especially some key front liners. that seems a little implausible for a lot of reasons, especially because you don't do something for nothing in politics. there would probably have to be a conversation around concessions from the speaker. there's the big question. if not mccarthy, then who? i don't think there's an easy answer to that in the halls of congress right now. until you have that, i don't know what you have here. >> so our marissa parra was in gaetz's district over the weekend talking to voters. let's listen. >> shutdowns are always political, either side. it doesn't really have much to

do with matt gaetz. i partially agree with what they're doing because we need to get the southern border closed. >> congressman curbelo, this is your home state. headlines over the weekend suggest gaetz's gamble could help him in a governor's race. is this just about one man's political ambitions? and who do you think wins this feud? >> an fla, today this is about matt gaetz for the last six, seven, eight years, the house republican conference has lived under this threat. john boehner had to deal with this. he ultimately resigned when he was threatened with a motion to vacate. paul ryan had to deal with this, even though the house was more stable under his leadership. now kevin mccarthy is having to deal with it. so matt gaetz represents this chaotic movement inside the house republican conference right now. but this is an ongoing problem. this week presents an

opportunity not just for democrats but for a lot of centrist republicans to establish a reliable governing coalition. this is not about bailing out kevin mccarthy. this is about allowing the house to work its will. this is about the 350, 400 members of the house who want to work constructively, who want to work collaboratively, and this week those members will have an opportunity to ban together and make a difference. we'll see if they take it or if this is going to play out the way a lot of people expect it to play out which is that maybe some democrats come in, step in, to prevent the house being thrust into chaos or maybe they don't. >> let's ask congressman crowley about that. if there is a vote to remove mccarthy, it could be kind of awkward, i can imagine, for democrats. i want to play what congresswoman alexandria oh kasia cortez says about it. >> i do not intend on voting for a republican speaker of the

house. i believe it's up to the republican caucus to choose their own leadership. it's not up to democrats to save republicans. >> congressman crowley, do you think if this motion is filed that democrats would help mccarthy keep his job? >> i appreciate the comments. having said that, i think democrats should keep their powder dry. right now we've seen what's been dysfunctionality turn into full-blown civil war, open civil war amongst republicans right now. this is something that john boehner dealt with and what paul ryan dealt with. and when democrats came in and not on one occasion, several occasions, saved the republican conference from self destructing and destructing the government at that point as well. i do think these are incredibly interesting times to be there, to say the least.

but it is not the job of democrats to elect the republican leadership, and i think democrats should sit back and take this all in. >> obviously speaker mccarthy is not in an enviable position in any way you look at this. congressman curbelo, the deal only funds the government until mid november. it kicks the can down the road. are we in for the same kind of drama? >> i think what happens this week will help determine that. again, there's a big opportunity here for centrist members, both republicans and democrats, to ban together and kind of take over the house. this is a power vacuum in the house. this is something pretty rare in the house. the house is a majoritarian institution. the speaker in most cases acts like a dictator. this is an exception. there's a power vacuum here. it's going to be up to the member to decide if they want to keep themselves in this

position. if they want to keep operating in a house where there's only one armed faction, which is these conservative hardliners or if other members will take up arms, so to speak, and start trying to make a difference and be protagonist as opposed to spec staters watching what the freed dom caucus is going to do next. >> congressman crowley, one of the sticking points is the funding for ukraine. it's not part of the short-term deal. here is senator chris murphy who sits on the foreign relations committee. take a listen to this. >> i'm concerned by the fact that when it came down to it, the only demand that mccarthy was willing to give in to that was coming from his hard right was the demand to abandon ukraine. my worry is, if we wait until the middle or end of november to have this conversation about whether he's still supporting ukraine, it may be too late for ukraine by that point. >> is the senator right to be worried? >> i think there's room for

worry here. i think when you look at the senate, you see bipartisan support for ukraine. mitch mcconnell has been overwhelmingly supportive of ukraine and the funding thereof. it's a growing concern not only the far right but the republican congress writ large, their lack of support for funding going forward. it was interesting it was the only thing pulled out of the spending bill. so i have concerns here and id think america has concerns as well. do we support democracy or do we nod around the world? i think that's the big question. >> former new york congressman joe crowley, former florida congressman carlos curbelo. california governor has chosen laphonza butler, the third black woman to represent the senate.

she's expected to be sworn in on wednesday by vice president kamala harris. in a new statement just this hour butler said she was honored to accept the nomination and will do her best to honor senator feinstein's legacy. next on "ana cabrera reports," an update on what's happening inside that courtroom now as donald trump's civil fraud trial in new york unfolds this hour. stay right there. eng goran, en gorn. 6

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we are continuing to follow the breaking news in lower manhattan. opening statements under way in donald trump's new york civil fraud trial. back with us, criminal defense attorney danny cevallos and former manhattan district attorney catherine christian. i'm told now in the opening statement prosecutors are saying they've already proven trump's statements were falls and misleading. what do you expect to hear when it's the defense's turn? >> they're obviously going to say that's not true.

to me the most interesting part of the trial is the defense case. how are they going to combat the business records with false entries, the financial statements that are false, the insurance application that has false information? how are they going to combat that? when it's a documents case, and this is a financial case, so it's about the documents, it speaks for itself. so it's going to be what defense is there. the attorney general wants to make sure if they win this case, it's not reversed on appeal. they're going to bring all the evidence as much as possible and cross the t's and dot the a's. that way the appellate court can say, you know what, the this judge already said some of the defense arguments previously were like a fantasy world, so do they have to bring a completely new defense, danny? >> what's the over/under on how many times the defense are tries to introduce an issue and justice engoran says i already

ruled on that in summary judgment. in fairness to the defense, the ruling on summary judgment, there maybe some gray area on what exactly is already decided and what is defense, you've got to try everything you possibly can. catherine's exactly right, there isn't a whole lot of things left to dispute. the things left to dissput are largely things contained in documents and those documents will speak for themselves. i wonder to what degree the defense will try to re-raise their prior arguments that, for example these statements of financial condition, nobody takes them seriously in the business, and they really did do some evidence that that may be the case, but justice engoran wasn't having it, so the question is if the defense still thinks it's true that, for example, statements of financial condition that you provide as statements of your financial condition that are just sort of jumping off points and you have

to do your own research, is that an issue they'll try to re-raise, it a's's a tricky minefield. so much of this case has already been decided. will they try to do it anyway recognizing that this battle really is for the appellate court at this point. >> it looks like the prosecutors showed video depositions from eric and donald trump jr., catherine, we're told as well as former trump cfo allen weisselberg, how effective do you think those are? >> i'm sure they're showing them to show how incredible the testimony was in the deposition of don and eric and in terms of allen weisselberg, he was the cfo. he's a convicted felon. i'm sure they're using the true statements that he made in that to prove as the cfo what he said is proof that falsified

documents, false financial statements, false applications to insurance. so putting that on the direct case is very, very important. >> the prosecutors are also discussing trump changing the square footage of his apartment by thousands of feet, and the judge has said discrepancy of this order of magnitude by a real estate developer sizing up his own living space of decades could only be considered fraud. danny, how critical is that detail to this case? >> i'll go further than that because justice engoran went into that issue at length in his opinion. he acknowledged, as does everyone, if you have an apartment, it might have some strange piece of architecture like a curved corner or something like that, and in that sense there might be some things that are subjective and i believe justice engoran used number of it could vary from 10 to 20%, not 200%, and if anybody knows better, maybe a criminal defense attorney or a former

prosecutor, they might make a bad estimate on the square foot age of their apartment but not a guy who's in the business of real estate, he should know better. i'm paraphrasing, of course, but that was the sentiment in justice engoran's opinion on summary judgment. that raises another issue, will the defense be able to crowbar that into this case, and do they do so at their own risk? there isn't a jury that may be impressed by that. it's the same judge that has likely read all of this, seen all the transcripts. the attorney general is playing excerpts from a videotaped deposition. you wonder if they really even need to do that. hasn't justice engoran seen all these transcript, read all these issues. to some degree this is an opening statement on both sides that is not just for the justice. it's for the world. it will be reported out, and this is in a sense a trial that is not just confined to the four

walls of that courtroom, but to all of us watching. >> like we're doing right now as the opening statement continues, we're getting continued reports on what they're discussing in the prosecution opening statement, we're told they're showing video of michael cohen, who, again, triggered this whole investigation with the statements he made before congress. i wonder how credible of a witness he is in this case, what do you think, catherine? >> well, yes, michael cohen hates donald trump, and i hope the prosecutors will bring that out. he was his personal lawyer. he was donald trump's mini me. before the hatred happened, michael cohen was on tv talking about how wonderful mr. trump was. he knows his business. he was there with him so he's very credible in that respect. so yes, he's biased in that he has this personal hatred against donald trump, but that doesn't mean he's not telling the truth.

>> weisselberg, the former ceo of trump organization was willing to do time. he was somebody who was part of a criminal prosecution. he wouldn't flip. so is his statements in these depositions going to do you think be beneficial to the prosecution? >> the attorney general is going to use weisselberg's testimony. it is helpful to them. it doesn't matter whose interests he's aligned with. it doesn't matter that weisselberg may or may not remain loyal to trump. if he gave a deposition he raised his right hand and swore to tell the truth. that truth may be damaging to the person he's loyal to. this kind of thing happens all the time in civil and criminal cases. a witness may be hostile to the attorney general's office that is calling him, but he may have vital information, and you go back to what's been said several times including, i believe, by justice engoron that this is a documents case. so let's say, for example, you have someone like weisselberg or someone like michael cohen and

the attorney general's office recognizes that he might have -- these witnesses might have credibility problems. i mean, this format is so old, it's from time and memorial. you use a cooperating witness type person, and then the other side, the defense stands up and goes through all the bad things this person did. catherine's probably used a thousand -- and i'm probably not underestimating a thousand cooperating witnesses. they all have the same issues. the defense will get up and say you're just here for a benefit. you have a criminal history of your own, sir, don't you? and really what happens in my experience unbalanced a jury is willing to listen to somebody even if they have some of their own demons in their closet. they don't need them in this case. >> they have no jury here. >> right, the jury, but justice engoron, he recognizes that, and this is a documents case. even if you have two witnesses like weisselberg and cohen who may have some credibility issues, it's not about the people. it's about the documents in this case.

and the documents largely speak for themselves. >> danny cevallos and catherine christian, thanks so much for staying the house with me as we continue to cover what's happening inside that manhattan courtroom as trump now faces this trial in a civil fraud case. that's going to do it for us today, but we'll continue our coverage right here on msnbc with josé diaz-balart right after a quick break. with no children and no casinos. we actually have reinvented ocean voyages, designing all-inclusive experiences for the thinking person. viking - voted world's best by both travel + leisure and condé nast traveler. learn more at viking.com. only unitedhealthcare medicare advantage plans come with the ucard — one simple member card that opens doors for what matters. how 'bout using it at the pharmacy? yes — your ucard is all you need. (impressed) huh — that's easy!

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