or less right now, but it's the cost of -- for the -- for the western world, the cause of freedom and that's the same message that president biden has been emphasizing, same message we heard today from the state department saying that they can continue funding ukraine, including with security assistance, for the coming days, but any further long-term commitment requires an action by congress. and it's the same time, actually, that they are making some progress on the battlefield, particularly in the black sea. >> and they're saying that if there is any settlement with russia it will only encourage russia to keep going and potentially threaten again as you were saying western nations and maybe world war iii if they invade a nato country. richard engel, thank you very much for joining us. that's going to do it for me today, "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone, happy

monday. it's 4:00 in new york. so each of the civil and criminal cases brought against donald trump and at this point there are plenty to choose from, slice right to the core of his persona in unique and distinct ways. contempt for the rule of law, a disregard for our very democracy, even an embrace of political violence. but the trial that started today in manhattan that $250 million civil fraud lawsuit brought by new york attorney general letitia james against donald trump, trump's company and his two adult sons is fundamentally different from those. it cuts deep into trump's most base instincts, his compulsive need to exaggerate the size of all things. his woefully and knowingly penchant for lying over and over again. his defrauding, defrauding his customers and the public. well, at least that's according to attorney general tish james. today both sides delivered

opening statements, the attorney general's team sought to convince the judge in this case that trump should be barred from doing business in the state of new york. according to our nbc news colleagues inside the courtroom, a lawyer inside james' office, kevin wallace, suggest that had while it may be one thing to exaggerate the size of stuff, the forbes magazine or on tv in front of viewers, quote, you cannot do it while conducting business in the state of new york. here is the attorney general's message on that this morning. >> my message is simple, no matter how powerful you are, no matter how much money you think you may have, no one is above the law. and it is my responsibility and my duty and my job to enforce it. the law is both powerful and fragile and today in court we will prove our case. i thank you all for being here and, again, justice will prevail. >> now, trump's defense lawyers

made polar opposite arguments saying there was no intent to defraud, period, the end, period. we understand donald trump tapped his feet and fidget fidgeted as he listened to today's proceedings. when they broke for lunch at which point he tried to stare her down when he walked by. a deeper dive into today's developments and what they could portend in just a second. first we come back to the history that was made today, how truly remarkable it is that this is even happening. donald trump seen here scowling in the courtroom is a former president of the united states and perhaps even more troubling he is right now today the front runner for the nomination of the republican party for the 2024 presidential. today that guy was face-to-face with a judge, seeking to hold him accountable. it is the first government trial he has faced this year and it

mostly won't be the last. this is just the beginning. the beginning is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters. pulitzer prize winning reporter russ butte ner, he has been on this beat and knows more about it than just about anybody. joining us former u.s. senator claire mccaskill here and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissman is back. i want to get into the spectacle, whether or not it's what trump was trying to do or not, what was clear to everyone watching was his barely contained rage and humiliation. >> we've all seen him speak in front of cameras a million times, right, and there are times when he seems to be kind of feigning anger, producing anger and frustration, but this was really unbridled, really, i think, a different level that happen we've seen from him and it's just remarkable, as you said, just historically to think about a former president, a

front runner who is in a courtroom in manhattan facing possible fine of up to $250 million and existential threat to the things that matter to him most, these businesses that he built and that in his mind were the reason that he should be president, showed the best of him, that could all be taken away from him. that a receiver could be running it is clearly like really feeling the weight of this weighing down on him as this thing just starts. >> your line of reporting, and i remember his reaction to all the stories that you guys broke, i mean, he went on an sued mary trump. he was outraged. and i think there was a piece of the investigations that andrew was a part of that enraged him because they were a distraction, but i don't know that he ever really contemplated the substance of those the way he clearly is obsessed with the substance of these. i mean, the idea that people will find out that behind the curtain the wizard just circles

newspaper articles with a sharpie and sends them to different media hosts, i mean, that is the truth according to his friends and former colleagues of what the business was. but to the point you were just making, what's at stake here is not just tearing his name off of buildings and having a receiver put in charge and he hates anyone else managing anything, it's being deprived of the myth, right, and the lore that he was a successful businessman. >> that's the conclusion we came to when we worked on the first article about the money he inherited from his father which we tallied at around half a billion dollars in today's money is that that was his real product was this myth that there was this little knock around guy from queens who got, as he put it, a small million dollar loan from his father and then built this massive thing. it was totally untrue on both sides of that. >> and opposite, right? he got a lot more than he ended up with because he was such a bad businessman. >> that's an amazing part of it

is that his father's wealth is underwriting his failures early in his career. after his big collapse in 1990 is really kind of carrying him over the bridge. he at that point in time starts all of these kind of mechanisms to try to claw his father's money away from him, he's trying to say he doesn't need it, but he's actually creating art if i says to take his inheritance early to kind of carry him through that, and then gets to early 2000s, doesn't have many businesses that are really going well, he can't really afford to buy many big things on his own, he can't get loans and mark burnett shows up one day and changes everything, right? another half billion dollars is going to come to him just for being on television for -- over the course of the next decade and more importantly recreate this myth for him. mark burnett fully -- the producer who created "the apprentice" fully embraced that myth that donald trump was like a self-made person and then a

come back kid after that. that was central to like the themes of that show and very important to the whole kind of energy they tried to create there. and now this could really, you know, maybe be a real metric that all of that was just what we've been saying it is, a myth. >> just on -- this isn't really any of the substance that the lawsuit deals with, but you're putting important things on the timeline. this is also the time where unfortunately large swaths of the country believed it and still do that saw him on "the apprentice" but it's also the time when they start getting a lot of interest from foreign banks and foreign investors, right? this is when the russians start buying apartments according to eric trump and this is when some of their money and their business kind of goes global. >> the licensing business goes global. >> right. >> he sort of burns through the american consumer licensing thing and increasingly as his

reputation and star dims in the later years of "the apprentice" they're taking money from overseas. throughout that whole time they took money from whoever would offer it. yes, they sold apartments to whoever would give them money for it. i think like an interesting thing that you are talking about is overseas foreign money. one thing i noticed in the tax returns is that when he ran for president they raised the initiation fees at mar-a-lago. he was previously collecting about $700,000 a year in new initiation fees. they raised them, as soon as he is president there was a huge increase in the amount of money that came in, up to the point it was like $6 million some years, and donald trump was taking the exact amount of new initiation fees that were given to that organization out the back door in distributions to himself, about $25 million over three or four years. you don't need to bribe him, you can just buy an initiation -- just buy a membership in mar-a-lago and you've got a line to him. >> andrew weissman, i want your

thoughts on everything that went on today, including this sulky, angry, brooding donald trump that we saw, but i also want your analysis about why he was there. >> sure. well, sort of big picture i sort of had two thoughts, one is just relating it to sort of my prior life when i prosecuted lots of what's called, you know, white collar crime, fraudsters, whether it was enron or volkswagen executives or large bank executives. you know, the scheme that we're seeing here where there's an i will i will using presented to the public about what is going on behind the scenes is quite a different story. that's as old as time. it is unusual because we're seeing it with respect to someone who was the leader of the free world, but this is the same story as what happened at volkswagen, it's the same -- which was diesel-gate, the same

story as enron. you see it in the sports world when people take steroids and they project as if they are a winner, when, in fact, it's through enhancement drugs. so that is really the pitch here that is being presented by the attorney general's office, it's what was found by the judge with respect to the first count, what we're really seeing now is the trial of the next six counts and a damages trial. why trump is there, i assume it's because like he really wants to get his story out and i think he also realized that if he wasn't called by the defense that tish james is going to call him. remember this is the case where he initially took the fifth and then because it's a civil case he decided to testify because if you take the fifth in a civil case it's basically you're done because there's an adverse

inference. so i think he kind of has no choice, but i think it's going to be an extremely difficult time for him on the stand if he chooses to testify. one, because the judge has already made findings against him, it's going to be very hard to get him to change his mind, and there's good reason for that. we've talked about the -- just one example which is the trump tower apartment, but it's such a great example because it's so concrete. you know, you know how big your home is and it's not 30,000 square feet, it's 10,000 square feet, and, you know, it's hard to say anything other than he lied about it. in fact, his defense counsel in court did not have an argument for why that wasn't an intentional misstatement on his part. so i think he doesn't really have a lot of choice if he wants to prevail here than to testify. >> i mean, andrew, there are

some of these crimes and some of these stories that i sit there and almost wanted to make myself a glossary, who is mazars, the pomeranz book was the same, i read it. this is part of the story that if you ever rented take a tape measure and you can solve the crime like your own little who done it. this is a tape measure crime. there is no jury in this case but when it's so flagrant and so obvious that seems to be a very damaging piece of information that flies against whatever public relations mission he thinks he's on. >> i agree with you. i think there's one thing that's probably worth just mentioning so people understand. with respect to this six counts that are on trial, there's one count that it's done, the judge has found for the state, but with respect to the six counts

there are really two issues that are there, one is donald trump's intent. and as i said, i think that's going to be very har to convince the judge that he didn't have a bad intent. but the second is really kind of a ctd, it shouldn't really help donald trump. the defense is even if i intentnay lied, the banks didn't rely on it. in other words, they didn't care because they reooking at other things. and that is actually their main argument and the only one they can sort o hope to prevail on, but it's super unattractive, right? i mean, that is like i'm an intentional fraudster, but the banks were actually looking at other things. they were looking at their own assessment of the valuation, they did their own assessment of how big the apartment is. they did their own assessment of the worth of mar-a-lago. so the fact that i lied isn't something that caused them damage because the victims

weren't actually, you know, caring what i said. you know, that i think is sort of the main issue that they're going to be pressing. i think the reason you are not seeing it being touted in their openings is because it's such an unattractive argument for someone to make who is, again, the leader of the free world, you know, just a few years ago. but i think that's their only hope with respect to the six counts which are being tried right now is that lack of reliance by the banks. >> i mean, claire, i'm not a lawyer but it sounds like, yes, i lied but i'm such a big fat liar no one believed my lies defense. i want to not play but i do want to share with our viewers what trump said today about the judge because it has not been a week since we came on the air with trump accusing the most senior military official in this country of treason, a crime punishable by death. he is awaiting a hearing on a

filing from the special counsel about tainting the jury pool and really impeding the ability for a fair trial to take place in the district of columbia because of his threats and his language and we will get to that, but this is happening in realtime. trump attacking the institutions seeking to hold him accountable is happening under our noses every single day. this is what he said today, quote, this is a judge that should be disbarred. this is a judge that should be out of office. this is a judge that some people say could be charged criminally for what he's doing. he's interfering with an election and it's a disgrace. now, what i'm -- you know, i'm sick -- sick about all of it, but i am especially curious about this sentence "this is a judge that some people say could be charged criminally for what he's doing." i doubt any people actually said that, but i don't know who trump

surrounds himself with these days, i suppose it's possible. this is the intimidation piece. this is what as an entire country we're going to have to grapple with. trump already previewing what he will do if reelected, go around and criminally charge the people that sought to hold him accountable. >> yeah, this is a judge-tried case. i think it's important to remember that. we ought to always point it out. there is no jury here. there's no ability of one person on the jury who secretly loves trump to say i refuse to rule against him. this is just a judge. and if trump thinks saying these things is going to somehow impact this judge, he doesn't understand who this judge is and his record. my daughter appeared in front of this judge a number of times and her description was he's

exacting, he's thorough, he sometimes has a quirky sense of humor but at the end of the day he's very fair and he will be fair here regardless of what trump says. he's already found him guilty on one, as andrew said, there's still six more things to decide and how much money and what his penalty is going to be, but the idea that he thinks going out and bloviating in the hall is somehow going to impact this man who sat on the bench, i think, for over 20 years in new york, he's seen it all. he's seen dirty looks from defendants, he's seen -- you know, he's been threatened before. this isn't the first time. now, it's the first time he's been threatened by somebody who was president of the united states, but those are the times we live in right now. i really think trump being there is fascinating because trump is speaking beyond the judge to his folks, to his followers, whereas the lawyers for the state are

speaking about the evidence to the judge. so it's an asymmetrical warfare and it will be interesting to see if trump makes any progress with anybody who isn't already in the cult. i doubt that he will and he certainly is not going to have any impact on this judge. >> i mean, i think it's the other side of the equation i'm curious about. the people as you reminded us over and over again, claire, it's hermetically sealed, but there is a republican primary going on i hear and he has been found guilty of committing fraud. i mean, it will be interesting to see if the thing that made him so powerful and prominent in the republican party, if this goes the way it looks like it's going to go is used against him in that political arena by anyone who still visits earth one and is able to see the goes on here. i need all of you to stick around during the break. when we come back i want to dive

into what everyone is talking about and that is the specific allegations, the list of allegations made by the new york attorney general. we will have much more on day one of this entire trial. plus a government shutdown has been averted for now but all the drama around how that happened and around kevin mccarthy's very speakership is the plot of a cliffhanger episode of a bad reality show. how will it end? will anybody show him a lifeline? who is he going to call? for the next episode we will fill you in on previews. and concerns about political violence are so urgent and troubling in this county jack smith is asking for another gag order against the ex-president. we will tell you about that. much more news to come when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. n "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. . febreze's fine mist floats longer in the air to fight even your toughest odors. so long stinky smells and hello amazing freshness.

febreze air mist. this is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified. they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a chromebook. now they're focused on learning knowing that their data is secure. ( ♪♪ ) diabetes can serve up a lot of questions, like, "what is your glucose?" and "can you have more carbs?" before you decide... with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. and lower your a1c. the number one doctor prescribed cgm. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us (♪♪) we're lucky to have this team working for us. our therapists give their all each day, by helping those who need it most. we take great pride not just in the job our team does,

but in them as people. our people. and while we're in the business of taking care of others... it's important our therapists know that with benefits from principal, they're taken care of too. (♪♪)

are you guys watching? this is my favorite part. you watching? okay, time to get your own bed, hank. chewy has great prices. hope you like plaid. i do. who wants popcorn? get more of what your pet loves with every day great prices and fast free shipping at chewy. we got the house! with every day great prices you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team.

so these financial statements we used, by me, for two purposes, one, was discussing with media, whether it was forbes or other magazines, to demonstrate mr. trump's significant net worth. that was one function. another was when we were dealing later on with insurance companies, we would provide them with these copies so that they would understand that the premium, which is based sometimes on the individual's capabilities to pay, would be reduced. >> so, again, this is the story told by trump org insiders,

allen weisselberg is someone who went to prison in part for his role in some what have michael has testified to. let me put up the other allegation that is will be decided. as we said, the persist and repeated fraud has been established, a judge ruled i summary judgment, that's a known known. falsifying business records, conspira tfalsify business atements, conspiracy to al lsif false financial statements, insurance fraud and conspiracy to commit insurance fraud. just talk us through what kinds of exhibits and witnesses new york attorney general tish james' side will make to prove those. >> they are all sort of note but you see there's multiple charges for the same act. interesting to me is that they are from the new york state penal code. those are actually criminal violations that are supporting this point that they were

persistently violated the law in perpetuating this fraud. i think the examples that you see are cases where trump had a particular record in his possession, the trump organization did, and it showed a certain valuation and then they put something else on it when they reported it to the banks. there are cases where there were restrictions on the property that they were describing and when they reported it to the bank they attached a value as if they had no restrictions at all. that happened at mar-a-lago, that happened at the golf course in aberdeen. there is a case where he said he had access to the cash in a certain partnership, that he had 30% of, he didn't have access to the cash. you would have to look at the partnership agreement to know that, but he had given away all power over that partnership 30 years ago. but when he reported it to the bank, he said he had access to 30% of the cash which one year was $93 million. imagine you're going to a bank and trying to get a loan and trying to let them just take

your personal guaranty, not collateralize the loan saying you have 93 million sooinds gets -- gets you a long way to getting that and an interest rate. they had an appraisal on a property, they are going to say everybody gets their own appraisal but there are big gaps where 40 wall street shows it's worth 200 or $220 million and they told the bank it's worth $500 million. it's a case where he has obvious reason to believe what he's presenting is not true and i think it's in that gap that you get to falsify a business record, doing the same thing, insurance fraud is one of those, and then there are these three conspiracy charges which are on there because more than one person was involved in that decision, they were working together to further this fraud. >> you know, andrew, as someone sort of outside of the realistic world it's been explained to me by people inside the world that some of what exposes him in this

case is the brazenness and the audacity. on their own not all of these behaviors are atypical of some of the standard practices in real estate, but at the scale at which he commits fraud, at the scale at which he inflates and deflates, it's rendered indefensible. i don't know if it was his deposition or -- i mean, he's already had the example of saying, well, i can't give you a values because what the saudis would pay is anything. and his mar-a-lago valuation is ludicrous. i mean, he rendered himself defenseless and i wonder how that dynamic plays out in a trial. >> i think the judge really addressed and -- what you are raising, nicolle, and he said, look, i understand that you can have two good faith appraisals that are different. people could differ around the

edges. and so what i would say is it's not that it's normal that people are committing fraud in the real estate industry, it's that you can have different people come up with different valuations and in good faith you could decide, look, i will take the higher one, the one that's more in my interest because, you know, they are two perfectly good ways of looking at it. and the judge said, but that's not what's going on here. you know, again, going back to just square footage, that's not -- that's just a flat-out lie according to the court. the mar-a-lago example that you just talked about in terms of restrictions on the property, that either it is true or it is not true, and so he represented that there were no restrictions and so it's worth more when that was not the case. the same thing as mentioned in the aberdeen golf course. so i think these are ones where the court is -- was willing to say, look, this was just a good

faith dispute. we wouldn't be here. and so these are -- i think the court has found already with respect to the first charge, these are just over and over again things that he found were just flat-out fraud. i think the first witness today, sort of the outside accountant, is going to be there to say essentially this is what was kept from me. this is the information i did not know that was going on within the trump organization and if i had known, we would not have been doing -- we would not have been the outside accountants for them. and so i think this is really going to paint a picture of just what i used to do, which is, you knew, bring, you know, fraud cases against people doing things that are not within the norm, that are really crossing a very distinct line. >> claire, we talk a lot about how trump's campaign for the presidency in 2024 is for him

existential in a very tangible way, right? it could be the difference between his freedom and a consequence for the alleged crimes that he committed in georgia, in washington, d.c. and other documents handling of state secrets at mar-a-lago. this one should be talked about, i think, in the same existential context in that he may have grafted on to himself other identities, but good leader isn't one of them. even if you are a republican you know that he was excited about hanging mike pence. i mean, without this part of his brand -- because i've been -- i'm trying to figure out what the hell he's doing there. even if you like trump he likes weak, whiney, the grumpy smurf thing. a very, very small group of followers who think more of him because he was sulky and pouting his way around court. it's ludicrous conduct. but i think this is as

existential for him as the others. >> i think it may be more, nicolle. >> yeah. >> i think this is his essence. i think he decided at a very young age that lying was going to be his coin of the realm about everything. about how much money he made, about how much he inherited, about how much things were worth, about -- you name it. and then when cornered, his go-to was bluff and bluster and fighting and being aggressive. so he is now cornered and he is reverting to what has worked for him. most of his adult life. and that is, you know, give an inch. and he thinks by being there somehow he is going to change the facts. he can't change the facts.

not in front of a judge. this judge is going to hear the facts and apply the law, end of story. and i don't know if his lawyers are telling him what he wants to hear. he's not doing himself any favors there. i don't think that the independent voter, swing voter in the suburbs of america is going to look at him sitting in that table and go, that's the guy i want in my living room every night. that's the guy i want to be making decisions about our national security and our economy. that's not going to happen. he's not going to get any new voters by this. so it once again shows his judgment is so flawed on everything, including what is in his best interest at this moment. his made up fairytale of business success is about to blow up in front of his face. >> just so that our viewers know, while claire was talking for a minute there we showed you a live picture of donald trump, as my colleague rachel maddow says there is a cost for us as a

news organization for knowingly broadcasting things that aren't true and the moment we put up that live shot he was talk being how fundamentally unfair that was but we know that that is something that he says when he loses elections fair and square, we know that that is something that he says when he loses in court fair and square. in case you were wondering that's what happened. russ, for your body of reporting on this and for being here as it's now actually kind of happening where the rubber hits the road, thank you so much for talking us through all of that. we will continue to call on you. we are grateful to have you. claire sticks around. andrew weissman, thank you for talking us through this and just about everything else these days. up next for us around here, over on capitol hill this weekend there was a lot of news and drama. they managed to eek out a deal to keep the government functioning for a wee bit longer but it doesn't mean that speaker mccarthy is out of the words or that husband caucus is happy that the government is running. we will explain after a quick break. don't go anywhere. l explain aft break. don't go anywhere.

sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta. find savings and support at caplyta.com.

this tiny payment thing- ask your doctor about caplyta. is a giant pain! hi ladies! alex from u.s. bank! can she help? how about a comprehensive point of sale system... that can track inventory, manage schedules- and customize orders? that's what u.s. bank business essentials is for. (oven explosion) what about a new oven, can u.s. bank help us there? we can serve loans in as fast as 12 minutes. that would be a big help! huge! jumbo! ginormous! woo! -woo! finding ways to make your business boom. that's what u.s. bank is for. inez, let me ask you,

you're using head and shoulders, right? only when i see flakes. then i switch back to my regular shampoo you should use it every wash, otherwise the flakes will come back. he's right, you know. is that tiny troy? the ingredients in head and shoulders keep the microbes that cause flakes at bay. microbes, really? they're always on your scalp...little rascals... but good news, there's no itchiness, dryness or flakes down here! i love tiny troy. he's the best. make every wash count! little help, please. where do you feel your support is right now in your caucus? >> i feel my support is very strong. they elected me to be speaker so i made a decision. i thought it was best to keep the government open. >> speaker mccarthy said he will survive this. >> he's probably right. his true partner has been the democrats. yes, we have to tell you about this story.

it's worth it. drama unfolded on capitol hill today between and around those two guys after the second one, that was florida far right, far maga congressman matt gaetz threatened to try to unseat republican speaker kevin mccarthy. for his part gaetz announced his intentions 24 hours after mccarthy worked with democrats to keep the government functioning by pass ago continuing resolution. what it did was narrowly avoid a government shutdown on saturday night. it puts another 45 days on the calendar to try to negotiate something more lasting for government funding. it is for the crime, though, of doing that and of working with democrats to keep the government functioning, to avert a shutdown, that gaetz wants to fire mccarthy. today gaetz took to the house floor to try to rally support for the idea and to criticize and attack mccarthy. he stopped short of calling for this thing that mccarthy gave him as a tool, it's called a motion to vacate, leaving open

the possibility, though, that it could happen anyway this week. while matt gaetz faces long odds in the unseating of mccarthy and a volatile all maga all the time caucus, nothing is every out of the question. it is a testament to mccarthy's weakness as a speaker that we're even having this conversation. it is the kind of chaotic dysfunction that is much less like governing and much more like reality tv from being produced by someone down in mar-a-lago. joining our conversation former congressman from florida, msnbc political analyst david jolly. claire is of course still with us. claire, i don't know how much i care about the current state of affairs, but i care what you think they are. >> yeah, well, so this is kind of fun in a way. >> right. >> let's talk about -- let's talk about where we are. first, the big irony is that matt gaetz and the crazy caucus

has handed more power to the democratic party than they ever would have had in the house of representatives. on a silver platter they walked over to hakeem jeffries and they said, speaker, we're going to give you some real power as the minority. the second thing that's interesting about this is that if gaetz goes ahead and files a motion to vacate which you have to believe he's gonna because he said he's gonna, then what does mccarthy want? mccarthy wants to hold on to the speakership but with not being as weakened as he might be. so how does he do that? his goal is to hold on the speakership with as few democratic votes as possible or at least public democratic votes. so he will be maneuvering to try to get people to vote present or to be absent so it doesn't look like he is being retained in the speaker's role by the democrats.

now, what does hakeem jeffries want here? this is a real test for him and his leadership. very smart so far, he's been quiet and all speaker pelosi has said is follow the leader, but he has the ability to get some real stuff here for the policy goals the democrats care about. and it's important that he make this a policy goal. he can't fall into the trap that this is a game for power. it has to be something that he can deliver for the american people that is important, like aid to ukraine or a vote on gun safety or some other vote that would reflect the values of a democratic party. so this is going to be very interesting because we've never had this happen in history. there has never been a speaker that has been removed from office in this manner, and i don't think it's going to happen now, but how this goes down is going to be really important for what this looks like in 45 days.

>> that's such a helpful and important context on the strategic level. i want to go back to the gaetz of it all with you, david jolly. because i don't want this to feel or sound more strategic than it is. he was asked by my colleague ali vitali today who was talking to trump and he said, i have. this is part of the arsonist wing of the republican party and, david jolly, you sat here through i think all 15 of the mccarthy votes and he said they elected me speaker. yeah, on ruined 15 they did. this is just like watching sort of the bad news bears against the keystone cops, it's impossible to know who you should root for. >> nicolle, as i very publicly said then i didn't think mccarthy could secure the votes to be speaker. my wife pointed out maybe you weren't wrong you were just early because i think we are going to face a new test for kevin mccarthy here.

the only thing that is preventing gaetz from having sufficient votes right now i think is what is emerging as the -- what i call the what then caucus. even among gaetz's hard line compatriots who are part of the arsonist caucus the reality is there is no plan for after they vacate the chair. matt gaetz might be able to blow up the house but he can't put it back together neither can his hard line free come caucus. who within the republican caucus will replace mccarthy and the answer is nobody. maybe nobody wants the job. which goes to this question for democrats and, look, claire is exactly right in her analysis, mccarthy wants the help of democrats without it looking like he's working with democrats. i think we have to kind of stop whitewashing mccarthy's reputation here a little bit. did he not choose to work with democrats, in fact, he tried not to work with democrats on the debt deal and on the cr he have pushed them aside and said we're going to do it our way. it was when his way didn't work,

when his speakership and talents failed that democrats chose to govern. on the vote to keep the government open it was 200 plus democrats that voted to keep it open and only about 120 republicans. it was similar on the debt deal, it was democrats that chose to govern reasonably to the kevin mccarthy, which is why i have a very hard line stance on this notion of democrats working with mccarthy to help save his speakership, don't do it. it's a disaster. don't trust kevin mccarthy. there is zero run, none, nada, nothing, no reason for hakeem jeffries to bail out kevin mccarthy in this moment. >> so what do you think happens next, then, david jolly? do you think he's gone and there's somebody new there or what do you think happens? >> yeah, so two reasons why you don't work with kevin mccarthy. one on substance. he has been the vessel for donald trump's authoritarianism for six years. he refused to cooperate with the j 6 committee, he launched an impeachment of joe biden, he has empowered jim jordan and james comer.

on policy he is as hard right as they come on immigration and taxes and health care and choice. he is not a kindler, gentler republican. on substance you get nothing by working with kevin mccarthy but on process if democrats allow republicans to vacate the chair, they don't bail out kevin mccarthy, without a speaker every roll call vote to try to get a speak that are goes on, 15, 20, 30, 40, the currency of democrats becomes greater and greater and greater and who knows maybe you pull over a couple of those mainstream republicans, you're talking about three or four votes, but the point is don't bail out kevin mccarthy. you can't trust him. he's wrong on policy, he's trying to defeat joe biden. he's not your ally. let him go. it's the republicans that created this moment. make them own it, see what happens. >> that's exciting. we're going to keep our eyes on this story and we're going to need you to help us do that. i need both of you to stick around a little longer. there's been a historic

appointment made to the u.s. senate from california governor gavin newsom. we will tell you about it next. gavin newsom we will tell you about it next (vo) antarctica... you have to experience it to truly appreciate the beauty, the wildlife, the sheer majesty. experience it with state-of-the-art expedition equipment and hands-on scientific research activities, all in exceptional viking comfort. we invite you to discover the world's seventh continent: antarctica. viking. exploring the world in comfort.

♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ -dad, what's with your toenail? and help life -oh, that...? i'm not sure... -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you.

jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients may pay as little as $0 copay. go to jubliarx.com now to get started. i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal, have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. we got the house! you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team.

mr. clean magic eraser powers through tough messes. so it makes it look like i spent hours cleaning, and you know i didn't. it makes my running shoe look like new! it's amazing. it's so good. it makes it look like i have magical powers. magic eraser and sheets make cleaning look easy. about two years ago, i realized that jade was overweight. i wish i would have introduced the fresh food a lot sooner. after farmer's dog, she's a much healthier weight. she's a lot more active. and she's able to join us on our adventures. get started at betterforthem.com california governor gavin newsom has made a historic cali newsom has made a historic choice to fill the seat of the late senator dianne feinstein. she passed away thursday night. laphonza butler was formally appointed to the now vacant senate post. butler is the current president of emily's list, which works to elect democratic women who support abortion the health care

rights. butler's appointment makes herr just the third black woman to serve in the united states senate. as well as the first openly lgbtq person to represent california in the chamber. the appointment will run through the end of 2024. current california house members adam schiff, barbara lee and katie porter are all running to be elected to butler's new seat. there is no word yet whether butler herself will also throw her hat into the ring and run. everyone's back with us. claire, what were your thoughts? we all got this news via alert last night. what did you think? >> well, the politician in me that has participated in a lot of electoral politics immediately started reading the tea leaves over what newsom was up to. i think this was a surprise choice. and i think what surprised people is he kind of had indicated that he was going to appoint someone who clearly

wasn't interested in running again. and when this appointment came down, that's not what was said. it was it's up to her whether she wants to run for the seat next year. so if you look at what's shaping up in california, and this is one of the few states where we talk about mostly all democrats, you've got adam schiff, katie porter, barbara lee and now the newly appointed senator butler. so who does her entry into the race help? i could argue that it might help adam schiff. because it's going to pull some of the more progressive votes away from either katie porter and/or barbara lee. and it may be that that gives adam schiff a little bit more of an opening. it remains to be seen. but certainly having three women in the race and just one man dilutes the power of the woman as a candidate, which is a powerful thing in all states, including california.

so it will be interesting to see. i have a hard time believing she's going to get a taste of the senate as a young, smart accomplished woman and saying no, i don't really want to do this anymore. i have a feeling she'll run. >> so interesting. david, we'll give you the last word on the other side of a very short break. stay with us. very short break. stay with us [city ambience sounds] [car screech] [car door slam] [camera shutter sfx] introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. [camera shutter sfx] he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people see.

otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. [ned?] it can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing it for nearly a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. [crowd gasp] ♪♪ with clearer skin, movie night is a groovy night. [ting] ♪♪ live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla. this is american infrastructure, a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪

my name is tonya, i am 42. as mother of nine kids, i think i waited this long to get botox® cosmetic because i take like no time for myself. my kids are sports kids. we're always running from one activity to another. i'm still tonya and i got botox® cosmetic...

and this is like the first thing i've done for me in a really, really long time. my life is still crazy, it's just as full as it was before... just with less lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. tell your doctor about your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. see for yourself at botoxcosmetic.com. david and claire are back. david, the last minute is for you. >> look, i think what we see with the california appointment

is something that we've seen for several years now with democrats, which is unity. you know, for a decade among the democratic party there was this family feud over being too progressive, too moderate, who's the right candidates, how do we win. we've seen that dissipate. we don't see the circular firing squad in the last couple of cycles. we're seeing the democratic party saying we want the best candidates to win, we can all work together. it's refreshing. we don't cover it enough. >> david jolly and claire mccaskill, thank you both for making sense of everything today but especially what happened over the weekend in washington. i think there's real fear around the country when there's a threat that school lunches or any federal service, paychecks will be cut off. so thank you both for your informed analysis last week and today. when we come back, the ex-president's open flirtation with just wanting to or thinking about buying a gun could actually land him in even more

legal jeopardy than he already faces. we'll tell you about that and much more after a very short break. don't go anywhere. break. don't go anywhere. wayfair has nice prices, so you can have nice things. um kelly? we have champagne taste... on a hard seltzer budget... wayfair's got just what you need! what... y'all this is nice. salad plates? kelly clarkson? i'm fancy now! i have always wanted statement lighting. get nice things at nice prices at wayfair! ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪

new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today.

we do not have one rule for republicans and another rule for democrats. we don't have one rule for foes and another for friends. we don't have one rule for the powerful, another for the powerless, for the for the rich or for the poor, based on ethnicity. we have only one rule, and that one rule is we follow the facts and the law and we reach the decisions required by the constitution and we protect civil liberties. >> hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. it's simple, and in normal times barely even news to say those things, right? there's one rule of law to govern all of the people in this country. one rule of law to hold ourselves to. so that if someone does break a law there's a relatively easy line to distinguish between right and wrong.

consequences. it is that very rule of law that neverending fact-based pursuit of fairness that is under direct attack over and over and over again by the four times indicted, twice impeached ex-president. it is why he faces four criminal indictments and multiple other legal challenges. it is why prosecutors have now requested a nearly unprecedented gag order to be placed on him in one of the federal investigations under way. on september 5th federal prosecutors working in jack smith's office on the election subversion case requested trump be prevented from making, quote, inflammatory and intimidating comments about those involved in that case. seeing as how trump is no ordinary person or defendant, he kept doing it. every single day. he made comments about his former a.g. bill barr, his former vice president mike pence. he has even now suggested that the now former chairman of the joint chiefs, general mark

milley, be executed. the specific named threats and criticisms against individuals who are cited as witnesses in the indictment were so serious in the view of smith's team that they felt the need to speak out once again to reinforce their filing and their request for a narrowly tailored gag order. in a brand new filing from the office of a man who rarely makes his views public, quote, the defendant should not be permitted to continue to try this case in the court of public opinion rather than in the court of law and thereby undermine the fairness and integrity of this oceeding. the filing goes on, quote, all it would limit is the defeans use of his candidacy as a cer for makg prejudicial public statements about this case. and there is no legitimate need for the defendant in the course of his campaign to attack known witnesses regarding the substance of their anticipated testimony or otherwise engage in materially prejudicial

commentary in violation of the proposed order. now, just hours before this supplemental filing was released the judge in the case, judge tanya chutkan, scheduled a hearing to discuss this possible potential gag order. it's two weeks from today on october 16th. as judge chutkan, who is all too familiar with trump's attacks on judges and who is involved in these proceedings whether they be potential witnesses or prosecutors or even the judge herself, have an audience, captive audience who in some cases feel the need to act on his words. case in point, that woman in texas who was arrested for threatening the life of judge tanya chutkan. and that was just one of the many death threats faced by those on the other end of trump's vitriol. concerns about political violence that are so urgent and so troubling attorney general merrick garland grew emotional when he was asked about it last night. >> people can argue with each

other as much as they want and as vociferously as they want. but the one thing they may not do is use violence and threats of violence to alter the outcome. an important aspect of this is the american people themselves. the american people must protect each other. they must ensure that they treat each other with civility and kindness, listen to opposing views. argue as vociferously as they want, but refrain from violence and threats of violence. that's the only way this democracy will survive. >> it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" washington correspondent glenn thrush is back with us, plus editor at large for the bulwark charlie sykes is here. and with me at the table a reunion of sorts. we haven't seen you in a while. former assistant u.s. attorney and westchester county district

attorney mimi rocca is here. let's start with the attorney general's very emotional response to that last question. this is where we are where we're saying hate all my policies, hate my leadership of the department, just don't threaten my workforce with violence. that is exactly where we are. >> just hearing him, he sounds like someone from a bygone era, merrick garland. and he's so sincere. and it's amazing to me that he is a man that trump and his defenders are trying to paint as political, merrick garland. when in fact, he is everything and anything but. he is trying to defendant the institution of the department of justice. he's a person -- he talked i believe in that interview very publicly and emotionally about the fact his parents escaped from the nazis and that is -- which my father did as well. and that inherently in and of itself is going to make you so

fearful about the idea of political violence, because when you put politics, the criminal justice system and violence together, that's when you end up without a democracy. and it is just absolutely stunning, as you say, that this is where we are, that the bar is literally just let's not threaten the prosecutors. let's not threaten the judge. let's have discourse in a civil way. let's let cases play out in the criminal justice system the way that they should. maybe you win, maybe you lose. but we have courts, we have laws, we have evidence for a reason. >> i mean, charlie, we should always be very specific, and you and i always are. we are not all there. one of the two parties is there. democrats get indicted and no one threatens the justice department. no one goes to shoot up the fbi. they don't issue an unprecedented bulletin from the department of homeland security

saying nara, irs -- i mean, every government institution that has even an ancillary role in any effort to investigate or hold trump accountable faces an historic level of threat against their workforce and the people that work at those companies have unprecedented threats against their children. this is not normal. and i think calling for civility is -- to mimi's point, is from a bygone era. but i wonder if the moment is almost leapfrogged past a point where we can sort of talk it out. what did you think of the attorney general last night? >> well, and the threat level is rising. you know, as i was listening to that, i was thinking -- mimi was absolutely right. it did feel like it was from a bygone era. but i was watching how emotional he got as he made an appeal for civility that feels like five minutes ago would not have been controversial at all. take a transcript of what he just said. there's nothing political or

ideological or partisan about what he said. there's no reason for somebody like a ted cruz to attack him for all of that. but as he was speaking, it was almost as if he had a sense that this tradition of civility, of respect was slipping away, that something had broken, something that was very, very valuable, something that we had taken for granted was in fact being destroyed or being undermined because again, simply saying that in a democracy we should be able to have vigorous debates but do not threaten violence against one other, another, i mean, that would have been almost a cliche a few years ago. but now it is, you know, urgently necessary and unfortunately marks a dividing line in our politics. >> glenn, i wonder if you can take me inside the department's decision to be more public and to speak out in this interview. >> well, i think it all goes

back to the testimony last week that he gave before congress, before the house judiciary committee, which was sort of a bit of a debacle. it's kind of hard to get the debacle straight. we had the one with the impeachment hearing. i'm trying to remember if it was actually -- no, it was the week before last. i'm sorry. my debacles are colliding with each other. >> they sort of intersect. they don't even collide. they're almost like elliptical, like one barely ebbs and then another one commences. for anyone keeping track at home, we're on to the gaetz versus mccarthy debacle this week. so you will be excused for mixing them up, glenn. >> well, i'm going up to wilmington tomorrow. that's a totally different debacle. >> different story. >> that's a totally separate debacle. so garland prepared basically for ten days for that grilling that he took before the judiciary committee. and i think he is starting to understand something that those of us who've covered politics for a long time are starting to

understand, and that is while these buildings that he insxhabts judges inhabit are made out of marble and granite and appear to be the most substantial things in the world, they are resting on consensus. you have to have a public consensus over fact, truth, and justice. and what he is sensing -- and again, it isn't just -- he talks quite emotionally about his family's experience with the holocaust. i was with him a year and a half ago on liberty island when he gave a really passionate speech about what his family had gone through. but let us not forget that in the late 1990s garland was in the department and helped prosecute the oklahoma city bombers. so he has seen in his entire career, much of it lately spent on the bench before he was -- he took over doj, dealing with the residue of political violence. and this is what is going to define this man's life, his

career, and he is experiencing in a very firsthand way the kind of caustic environment that is creating the rhetoric that is driving both threats and in rare circumstances the actual violence itself. >> it's such an important point. and i mean, he's experiencing it as a government official. something that he probably knows more about and is more intimate with the evidence, mcveigh, right? he experienced it as a prosecutor. he cast himself as an above the fray leader for a moment that i think, glenn, to your point, his legacy is also going to lie in whatever happens with jack smith's cases. i mean, appointing jack smith may be the most consequential thing he will ever do. and i have to ask you i had seen this news. it was bizarre because of course it was coming from the trump campaign. you're never sure what's real and what's not. that trump -- and i think you and i talked about it. tried to buy a gun, flirted with

buying a gun, said he wished he could buy a gun. that made its way into a filing released at 8:00 p.m. friday night that will tell you something sad about my weekend that i read it. let me read to you from this jack smith filin "the defendant should not be permitted to obtain the benefits of his incendiary public statements and then avoid accountability by having others whose messages he knows will receive markedly less attention than his own feign retraction." and there's a footnote, "the defendant either purchased a gun in violation of the law and his conditions of release or seeks to benefit fromis supporters' mistaken belief that he did so. it would be a separate federal crime and thus a violation of the defendant's conditions of release for him to purchase a gun while this felony indictment is pending." so jack smith just sort of cuts right through all the b.s. around whether he did or he didn't. he said either way, whether he did or left the impression that he had done so, it violates the condition of his release. what point are we getting at

with jack smith? it feels like we've entered the don't f with me phase. >> well, i think jack smith wants this trial in washington to start fast. right? and like a good prosecutor he's keying in on what the trial judge has already said. so judge chutkan when admonishing trump's legal team, i believe during the arraignment, during the first hearing, warned them against these incendiary statements. she made it very clear she wasn't going to tolerate it. and while a lot of people have focused on, you know, violating the terms of his bond and putting him behind bars or even fining him, which would be a significant step, she took it in another direction. she said if he continues to speak this way, it raises the risk of tainting the jury pool in washington, d.c. and intimidating witnesses, and that would be a driver for a faster trial. i think smith wants the fastest trial possible. he has a very streamlined

indictment. he could have done a much fatter indictment. the six unindicted co-conspirators could be co-defendants. he chose not to. he took an alternative path to the one fani willis took in fulton county. so jack smith wants this thing to move as quickly as possible, perhaps to make up for some of the lost time at the beginning of the investigation before he was appointed. so i think all of this in addition to sort of engaging in the bub debate with trump, i with i think smith is starting to understand as an important part of his job to goat the public behind this prosecution, right? because i think that is a factor here. he wants to speed this trial up. and i think each one of these findings is aimed at that particular objective. >> let me just share a little bit more context because again, around the gun thing, this was murky at the time. trump -- so despite his spokesperson's statement at the time that he hadn't bought a gun on that trip, trump then posted a video, or reposted a video of

the incident posted by one of his followers with the caption, "my president trump just bought a golden glock before his rally in south carolina after being arrested four times in a year." so the message that went to his supporters was about both of these dangerous things. one, violating the terms of his release. and two, of course, brandishing a weapon. >> right. so it fits perfectly in a bad way into the dual harm that the special counsel is pointing out in the brief. right? there's two separate but equally important real harms here from what trump is doing with the gun. whether he actually bought it, didn't bought it, jack smith brilliantly cuts through it, as you say, because it almost doesn't -- i mean, it would matter if he was going to be charged with it potentially as a crime. but otherwise it really doesn't matter. it's all the show. the two separate but equally dangerous harms potentially are

the intimidation of witnesses, which we see when he makes threats to the judges about witnesses, general milley. i mean, these are -- whether it's a witness or, the fact that he can rally people into a fury, and we know that he can. i mean, we've seen it time and time again. is a real potential harm. the other harm that is very real, especially in this case, is the polluting of a jury pool. that you cannot find a jury pool, which would be hard in any case, in in case, in any event. but particularly hard when he's putting his version out there. and most defendants, most people charged with crimes, don't have a microphone this big. he does. and so you have to take that into account. and we would take it into account. prosecutors would take it into account with someone -- and have, right? we've seen people charged with crimes told outside of the

courtroom you can't just say whatever you are thinking or feeling about the evidence, about the witnesses. he's trying to taint the jury pool. so those are -- they're separate but both really important. and i agree with glenn the goal here seems to be okay, let's get this going because we don't know what's going to happen if this is pending for many more months. >> charlie, the thing about this request for a narrowly tailored gag order is that everything that was in it sort of happened in public view. it broke when we were on the air. we went through a lot of the threats against chris krebs and other election officials. these are all things we watched happen. it is the first time that his very public conduct, which he views as -- you know, when trump makes his little whiteboard of things that make me good and things that make me evil, he puts his public persona on the good side. it may in a criminal legal

context be disastrous for him. this feels like it is also the first test of that. >> it is. and yet he continues to press this, as if he's daring the judges, as if he is trying to bait them, dare them to take strong action. because i think part of him thinks that look, the more of a victim card i can play the better it is for me. that i can play -- i can play the martyr. because there's no indication whatsoever that he's chagrined or that he's more prudent or that he's more cautious. and i think the gun incident was a perfect example of that. i was really struck by the fact that jack smith, you know, was able to make the distinction he either bought the gun or he tried to benefit from his followers' perception that he bought the gun. >> yes. >> because what he was trying to say is i am so big, i am so powerful that i will defy the criminal justice system, i will defy the law in broad daylight.

it is that willingness to be -- to engage in transgressions in broad daylight in the face of everyone that he's hoping will burnish that image of him as the besieged gladiator. and again, so that the test both for the prosecutors and the judges is how will they respond? and i think glenn makes a great point. that jack smith understands the asymmetry of debating with donald trump. normally prosecutors and judges have to be more circumspect than a shameless politician, demagogue like donald trump. but jack smith is going to be engaging him. he's continued to signal that he's not going to let these comments go, that he's going to act, he's going to go to the court. if donald trump sfajz a stunt where he pretends to buy a gun, that's going to be in a motion. if donald trump suggests the death penalty for one of the nation's most prominent generals

and a potential witness in his case, he's going to go to court. so i think this battle is joined but donald trump is certainly not backing off. you saw that in new york this morning, that this is not a donald trump who is in any way going to respect the norms of the criminal justice system until he absolutely has to. >> yes. today in new york was donald trump defendant boo-hoo out there complaining at every turn. charlie and mimi stick around a little bit longer. glenn thrush, thank you very much for starting us off this hour with your reporting. we are grateful. when we come back, back to the story that started our broadcast today. the trump fraud trial in new york. "new york times" reporter suzanne craig was in the courthouse today along with the new york attorney general and the aforementioned boo-hoo disgraced ex-president. she will join us at the table in just a moment. also ahead for us, it's day one of a new term at the united states supreme court. and of course the big elephant in the room is the ethics or

lack thereof of some of the justices. many months now of drip, drip, drip revelations have left the court badly diminished in the public's view with no known plans to restore their own reputation. we'll get to that story later in the hour. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ntinues after. don't go anywhere. (pensive music) (birds tweeting) (pensive music) (broom sweeping) - [narrator] one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food. no family dinners, no special treats, no full bellies. all around the world, parents are struggling to feed their children. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. kids are forced to drop out of school so they can help support their families. covid, conflict, inflation and climate

have ignited the worst famine in our lifetime. and we're fed up. fed up with the fact that hunger robs children of their childhood. fed up with the lack of progress. fed up with the injustice. help us brighten the lives of children all over the world by visiting getfedupnow.org. for as little as $10 a month, you can join save the children as we support children and families in desperate need of our help. now is the time to get fed up and give back. when you join the cause, your $10 monthly donation can help communities in need of life-saving treatments and nutrients, prevent children from dropping out of school. support our work with communities and governments to help children go from short-term surviving to long-term thriving. and now thanks to special government grants, every dollar you give before december 31st can multiply up to 10 times the impact. that means more food, water, medicine

and help for kids around the world. you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today. you're probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? it's true. plus, when you buy your first line of mobile, you get a second line free. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. it's happening.

we're going to go back to our big story of the day that we started the broadcast with. it continues to develop. the disgraced ex-president's business empire on trial today. the first of several trials for him most likely this year. face to face in the courtroom in

lower manhattan today with new york attorney general letitia james for her $250 million civil fraud lawsuit that could very well have widespread ramifications for trump and his businesses. it cuts to the core of how he views himself or at least how he brands himself. the ex-president was there voluntarily to, quote, fight for his reputation, tapping his feet, distractingly, and fidgeting during opening statements from the a.g.'s office. that office now seeking to convince a judge -- there is no jury in this case. that he should never be allowed to do business in the state of new york again. joining us now at the table our eyes and ears. "new york times" investigative reporter suzanne craig. she was at the hearing today. she's been helping us understand not just this case but these issues for many, many years now. i just want to ask you to just sort of walk me through the day. you walk in and what? >> so i was in a room one floor below watching it on closed

circuit, so i could actually see the defendant's table, and it's still remarkable to see a former president sitting at the defendant's table. >> totally. >> but he came in and sat down and he was -- did not look happy. most of the day he had his arms crossed in a very just defensive posture. and the attorney general was sitting just to -- two seats behind him, behind her lawyers. and the first -- right at the beginning before things started the pool reporter -- the pool photographers were allowed in. and right away he made his scowling face like he had done for the mug shot. >> that's what i think everybody saw, the scowl. >> it was interesting to see his whole demeanor change when those photographers came up. it was he very performative. >> a performative scowl. >> a performative scowl. cocked his head back a little bit and really leaned into the scowl. and then things got under way. letitia james -- it was interesting. she sat there quietly by herself. she had a security guard next to

her. watched the proceedings for the whole day. and it started with the new york attorney general's lawyer making their case. and you know, you had a great discussion about it last hour. they still have to prove the falsification of business records and conspiracy. there's six or seven -- six counts. >> insurance fraud. >> right. and that was interesting because that's going to go now to -- what sort of potential damages he is looking at. and one of the slides that was actually up was showing that he did get preferential loans. those sort of things are important for their case because -- and they actually had a picture of the fellow who's going to come in, the damages expert, and talk about that. and the judge at the end of it is going to have to assess what the damages were. so that happened and then -- >> and that's important -- i'm sorry to interrupt. one of his defenses is well, they didn't use it. and to your point, there is evidence that tish james' office has developed that it did result in beneficial loan treatment. >> right.

we're going to hear evidence on that. the attorney general's going to call witnesses. i'm sure trump will call his main defense -- one of them. he has a couple points that he's making. that the banks did their own due diligence. and the other argument he made is there are so many caveats in this that it rendered the documents useless. things like that. and then christopher kise got up. he is donald trump's main attorney. and he made a lot of the arguments that i just mentioned. and he very much when i think about what he was doing, he was speaking to the judge but he was very much speaking today to the appellate court. this is going to go on appeal. and he would stop in the proceedings and he would make an objection, and a lot of it would be about, well, this happened before the time frame -- he feels that there's been an appellate court decision where 80% of this case should be thrown out because it all happened before a certain time. and so he would stop -- >> technical -- >> right. and he would pause and he would

make that because he wants the transcript -- >> in the record. >> in the record that that's there. and then donald trump has another attorney with him, alina habba. and she asked if she could make remarks and she said she is doing this off the cuff because of what she had heard the attorney general say outside of the courtroom. and she gets up and was very animated, was practically yelling to the point where after she was done the judge said to the next lawyer that came up to keep the volume down because it was so loud. and she was saying that letitia james, she had run simply to get trump and this was just all about this vendetta that letitia james has. and then she started in on repeating some of the claims that they've already gotten into trouble for. one of them that really jumped out was mar-a-lago.

she mentioned and she says in her remarks, she said to the judge, well, you're saying that it's only worth 18 to 34 million. and i can tell you that mar-a-lago is worth more than a billion dollars and doral is worth more than a billion dollars. and she was going down this road again. and the judge actually when she was done, i think almost done, he said hang on. i never said that. and he didn't say it. his ruling that came down last week said that there's been valuations for property appraisal that put it at that. it doesn't mean it's worth that. and i just found that that really struck me because that's what donald trump and some of his lieutenants do. they say a lie and they repeat it over and over and over. and eric trump the other night was out tweeting about that valuation saying the same thing. and so the judge -- there was a very heated back and forth and vocal back and forth between the two of them at the end of her

remarks. and her audience was an audience of one. it was donald trump. >> what's interesting and i want to ask is it feels abnormal, right? to have the two lawyers on such different -- you're used to seeing lawyers take different pieces of the case or different witnesses or one does this and the other does that. but you're basically talking about messages for totally different populations and none of them reside here on earth one. right? one is preparing a transcript for appeal. the other is preparing trump for whatever -- you know, wherever he's talking to tucker carlson tonight. it sounds so bad faith. and i wonder if you think there's a cumulative impact of this for the judge. >> well, he think there is an audience of one in the courtroom and it's the judge. she at one point said why isn't there a jury here? and he said because you didn't check the box -- you didn't ask for a jury trial.

it became clear, i'm not even sure she was fluent in some of the things that were going on that had transpired. >> she's a lawyer? >> she's a lawyer, yes. and i found that really interesting because the judge -- you're not playing to a jury. there's one person that will decide it. he's the person that last week already said i don't even need to hear the fraud stuff, it's decided, you are liable. and now they're in a court yelling at this same judge. the audience was not him. it was trump. and they were -- throughout the day the two of them were -- as you do, though, it's not surprising but there was a lot of discussion back and forth between the two of them. but donald trump was rapt when she was talking. he was leaning in. he was nodding his head. he loved her performance. >> so crazy. it's so crazy i'm almost rendered speechless. i want to ask you, mimi, how or if attorney general tish james's

office has to change their strategy at all for something that's so clearly performative. >> no. i don't think so. i think they are putting on the case with facts and they should stick to that and do that. and trump will continue and his defenders to make their claims about this being politically motivated. and, you know, there is no question. there is no question that tish james when she campaigned for attorney general talked about how she would -- intended to try and hold donald trump accountable if and when she could prove crimes. and you and i have talked about it. my office had an investigation about donald trump which, you know, was publicized. and i took a step of saying hey, we didn't charge him. i couldn't charge him, so we didn't. prosecutors don't usually go around publicizing when they can't charge cases.

it's not something, no matter who the person is that we're investigating. but i felt it was really important to do because the point is it doesn't matter what someone's politics are, what their personal opinion is of the person they're investigating. if you don't have the facts, you can't charge the case. she seems to have the facts. it's not a criminal case. it's a civil case. very different. but they should keep relying on the facts that they have. >> i just want to ask a logistical question. are you going back tomorrow? are you going to be there every day? >> i think i'm going to go in and out. i'm laughing because i think i just -- i was, you know -- i was watching after the opening arguments don bender the accountant -- >> yeah, from mazears, right? >> from mazars. came on and he was testifying. and some people -- i don't want to say they were falling asleep but i was riveted. it's interesting because these characters now -- i've been covering donald trump's finances since he first announced his candidacy, and they're sort of the characters of my life now.

>> totally. >> and to see them in different settings, and i know a lot about each of them, and i'm a student of this. so i was fascinated to see him. and you know, allen weisselberg will be coming up soon. jeff mckonni another character in this that worked in the financial department along with allen weisselberg. they also appeared in the trial against the trump organization. many of them did. so we saw them there. and then we're going to also potentially see the children of donald trump being called, ivanka will be the first, is the first one potentially to be called, and then eric trump. eric trump was in court today sitting behind his father. and then don jr. may also be called. we don't know if they will testify or give the fifth -- or take the fifth. but you know, that's sort of what's coming up. so i think i'm going to go in and out of court. i've also got another story i'm working on. but it's sort of hard to stay away. it was fascinating today. >> we love your stories, but we

love having you there. we will stay neutral. i agree with you, if you're steeped in this, and i know most of it through your reporting, but these characters are so fascinating and they all -- you know, it's almost like the january 6th story but for one little thing happening you might not have ever known or but for one ruling you may not have had access to this. so it is all so consequential. >> and michael cohen, it's interesting, he's going to be kaltd r called. and he was very much -- you could see, i was watching donald trump, there was tape that was played today of his testimony. and you know, donald trump was just staring intently at the screen while it was going on and he was also -- his name was evoked several times. i mean, you can feel the tension between these individuals that are involved in just the anger and how their lives -- the drama, their lives, all of them have been forever changed. michael cohen used to work for

him. it really is shakespearean when you see it. but they were evoking saying he's a liar, he can't be trusted. a lot of this is document-based but they want to make him kind of the bogeyman of this all. and you can see that all really fermenting today. >> it's just amazing to have your reporting from being there. thank you so much for coming here afterward. mimi, thank you for being back at the table. it's so nice to see you again, my friend. charlie sticks around with us. when we come back, the united states supreme court kicking off what promises to be another extremely consequential term with cases that could go a long way toward deciding big issues like government power and gun rights. once again questions about ethics are overshadowing all of it. we'll have that conversation next. it we'll have that conversation next

♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare

deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage, plus prescription drug coverage. and coverage for dental, vision, and hearing, all wrapped up into one convenient plan. plus, there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! humana has large networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists across 49 states. so, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. humana - a more human way to healthcare.

do you personally have confidence that this current supreme court is upholding and will uphold the rule of law? >> i worry. but i do think the end of the day this court, which has been one of the most extreme courts -- >> mm-hmm. >> -- i still think on the basic fundamentals of the rule of law that they would sustain the rule of law. >> that is hello nafr ez, he thinks. president joe biden and perhaps most hauntingly revealing just how diminished the current supreme court is in the eyes of the public. it comes as the court begins its

new term today, a term already clouded by ethics scandal after ethics scandal. the court will hear cases that have the power to fundamentally change every facet of american life, including whether people subjected to domestic violence restraining orders can own guns. they'll deal with voting rights, power of the federal government to govern. and freedom of speech. it is highly likely to take up the case over the legality of one of the two drugs involved in all -- almost all medical abortions. it comes amid a growing unease in the country with whether the court will rule in the best interests of the american people after myriad reports of justices aleelto and thomas specifically accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars in undisclosed perks from conservative activists whose needs and interests are very much before the court. and if it were not enough to raise eyebrows and concern, earlier this year alito gave an exclusive interview claiming congress has no power to impose

ethical standards on the nation's highest court. to a lawyer with a case before the highest court this term. but of course he did. joining our coverage gabe roth, executive director of the non-partisan judicial watchdog fix the court. and senior opinion columnist for the "boston globe" and msnbc political analyst kimberly atkins stohr. charlie's still with us. gabe, take me through your sort of personal curtain raiser views today. >> yeah, this is clearly a diminished court in the eyes of the american people. there is no question that the ethics of the court are top of mind not just to the nine justices in the conference room but to all 330 million of us. we are supposed to believe that the justices are acting impartially, that their opinions are rendered without favor, without bias. but i don't believe that we can continue to believe that. and as you mentioned, there are some major cases this year that

the justices are going to hear in which some of their political billionaire buddies have interests in the case. so that's something that we're going to be watching. not as a one-off, okay, justice thomas flew on a private plane. but i think it really underpins the entire docket we have this coming term. >> you know, kim, in the past their way of dealing with it was trumpian, right? projection. project onto propublica or anyone that covered the really investigative documents-based reporting that was done. it was never countered with a fact check. right? none of the justices that were the subject of any of that reporting ever produced documents that proved anything that was reported about them untrue. they simply went to friendly editorial boards and attacked the very existence of the journalism. these are the people that we trust with these cases that, again, could touch every facet

of american life. >> i mean, that is what is so extraordinary. i covered the court -- i've covered the court in some capacity for nearly 20 years now. and traditionally, the justices spoke through their opinions. it could be frustrating for reporters because you can't, you know, find them in the hallway and question them the way you can when you cover, say, congress with elected officials. but there was that sort of, you know, we speak through what we do and not any other way. now you have justices like justice samuel alito who did a pre-buttal to a case, to a story that was coming out in the "wall street journal," speaking to an attorney who has business before the court, defending himself and his ethics and not reading the room or not being self-aware enough to know that that in itself will further erode

people's trust in the court. it has really reached a critical issue, a critical point when there are still so many important issues, as you pointed out, before the court. voting rights, access to reproductive health care, gun rights. you know, lgbtq rights and religious rights. these are so many things before this court. and the less the public's trust in this court the more damage that it will do to our democracy. >> i want to bring up a couple of these cases that are -- actually, the mifepristone, they haven't officially agreed to hear this case yet, but this is about the legality of one of the two medications used in almost all medical abortions, which is the majority of the abortions in this country. that is how they are prescribed by doctors. what do you -- i mean, gabe, do you view it as a foregone conclusion that they take this

case? >> yes. absolutely. this is coming. >> and what's going to happen? >> i mean, that's tough to say at this very juncture. i mean, i think that there is a case to be made that five or six of the conservative justices are going to side with the lower courts and say that the fda's approval of this drug, which was something like 20-odd years ago, so why they're bringing that approval back from, you know, two decades ago. we all know why. but that's not the way these things are supposed to work. i think that there is going to be some very favorable or sympathetic ears at the supreme court toward redoing fda's approval for this drug. and this drug, as you mentioned, is safe. it's effective. it's how the majority of women get reproductive health care. and the idea that you're going to just change what the fda -- the experts, by the way. the justices aren't the experts. they're not ob-gyns. they're not fda commissioners.

that you're going to overturn what the experts are doing is kind of ridiculous and anathema to a democracy that should be based in expert opinion and not necessarily judicial opinion. >> so kim, this is not -- we should use the word lower courts -- this is a manufactured case brought before a judge in amarillo for the express purpose of rendering medical abortions less effective and less safe. this is, again, a trumpian legal manufacturing that seeks to expose women to more danger if this drug is stripped. and you know who gets that? the vast majority of women. i don't have any doubt that the politics of this will only further diminish the court in the eyes of the public and the people that appointed these justices will eventually pay a political price. but that doesn't matter. it takes too long. women will be harmed in the near term. what are you watching for in this case?

>> yeah, so i think everything you said is exactly right. i think it's important that our viewers understand that there are a lot of people bringing cases in places like texas because the fifth circuit court of appeals is probably the most conservative appellate court in the nation. it is more conservative, i think, than even the u.s. supreme court, which is why these challenges -- these challenges are coming out, being brought in places like texas and louisiana, to make sure that you have a lower court ruling that is more favorable for the supreme court to take up and to sort of make the case for them before it even gets there. i think in the mifepristone case if there is any, you there's an taken is that that court found that not the original approval, the fda approval of that was not impermissible, but rules that made the drug more accessible afterwards are the ones that were struck down. so that hopefully the supreme

court at least, if they're going to reduce access they won't take it off the market completely, but even by reducing the rules that allow people to take the drug at home that don't require multiple doctors 'visits. these are things that will make it much more inaccessible to a lot of women who need it most, but the fifth circuit and so many of these cases are coming out of there and that is where you will see how conservative this u.s. supreme court will go. >> charlie, i want to bring up one more case and i mentioned it in the lead. saki rahimi who was under a court order when he threatened another woman with a gun and was involved in a series of five shootings in december 2020 and 2021 the 5th circuit found it unconstitutional. again, we talk about a dystopian world for every woman living in

america if mifepristone is taken off the market and abortions become less safe. this gets at the core of whether the rule of law exists for women at all. whether a restraining order granted because your most i want mat partner is a threat to you whether that could include barring that person to have a gun. the 5th circuit found that know constitutional. >> we'll also find how far the court will push its own rulings and the bill will come due and what is the logical extension of these rulings and all of these issues are going to be extremely incendiary and extremely divisive, and the court has to realize that at this moment they need to be aware of how fragile, the institution is. it will rest upon public opinion and upon consensus and that's been badly eroded. so the puzzling thing here is why they are resisting at all the push to create a judicial

code of ethics that applies to the supreme court justice. it would seem to be the easiest choice. all they have to do is simply say that the supreme court justices are covered by the same code of ethics as all other federal judges and it would aba step toward reassuring the public about the integrity of the court especially with the rulings coming up. >> you never know when you will need the supreme court to have the integrity of the vast majority on of americans. it seems like a stupid thing to squander. i know some people are watching taylor swift and the nfl. the four of us, we will be watching the supreme court. thank you for sitting down with us on this today. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors we'll be right back.

as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly

support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means

all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty.

the pioneers of the covid vaccines were award the nobody ilprize in physiology or medicine earlier today. scientists katalin karako and drew weissman were recognized for the years to pave the way for pfizer and moderna to use a new approach to create vaccines using mrna. the they lauded the two skuntives saying this, quote, the vaccines have saved millions of lives and prevented severe disease and many more allowing societies to open and return to normal conditions. this year's nobel laureates critically contributed to this transformative development during one of the biggest health crises of our time. another break for us.

we'll be right back. time another break for us we'll be right back. what causes a curve down there? is it peyronie's disease? will it get worse? how common is it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing. start talking to a specialized urologist. because it could be peyronie's disease, or pd. it's a medical condition where there is a curve in the erection, caused by a formation of scar tissue. and an estimated 1 in 10 men may have it. but pd can be treated even without surgery. say goodbye to searching online. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose pd and build a treatment plan with you. visit makeapdplan.com today.

>> tech: need to get your windshield fixed? safelite makes it easy. and build a treatment plan with you. >> tech vo: you can schedule in just a few clicks. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> man: looks great. >> tech: that's service on your time. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch, it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today.