in as the chair of the foreign relations committee after me mendes stepped aside as the chair, one of his first actions now was to put a hold on all u.s. military aid to egypt because of those human rights concerns. so, it's a pretty seismic development in the senate here where you see this turnover in terms of the foreign relations committee chair and one of the first issues he's tackling is one of the issues his predecessor was indicted on. andrew, thank you. we appreciate it. and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on us on this jack-packed wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. i hope one thing is clear after this week, i never give up. >> i believe i can continue to

fight maybe in a different manner. i will not run for speaker again. i'll have the conference pick somebody else. all right. what a difference nine months makes. kevin mccarthy's speakership is over after a small group of far right republicans joined all democrats in voting to remove him. we'll go through what led to his undoing and what's next for the house after a truly chaotic, historic day on capitol hill. plus, the other big story we are following this morning, donald trump now under a gag order in his civil fraud trial for what he posted on social media. we'll go through what the consequences could be if he violates the judge's ruling. a bad day in court for the former president. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, october 4th. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too

early" jonathan lemire, senior writer for the dispatch, david drucker and co-host of showtime's "the circus" jennifer palmiary. and nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann. >> willie, obviously just the absolute chaos in the house. which i think the wall street editorial page, republicans cut off their own heads. we'll get to that in a little bit. but, as big of a story that is, what's unfolding in court, in new york state, also massive. people that have known donald trump for a very long time say this is getting to him in a way that none of the criminal trials have gotten to him and i think it's starting to show. >> yeah. entire identity, isn't it,

big-shot businessman. this is how he was elected president. how he became famous, all of those things. likely being stripped from him as we watch this trial unfold. now the judge reminding him yesterday you cannot go after in a public way members of the court, witnesses, other people. that's not how this works. it's not who you are or who you think you are. you cannot attack people associated with this trial in a public way. we'll dig deep into that trial in just a moment. we do want to begin this morning with that history that was made in the house of representatives. >> on this vote, the yays are 216. the nays are 210. the resolution is adopted. without objection the motion to reconsider is laid on the table. the office of speaker of the house of th united states house of representatives is hereby declared vacant. and just like that, last

night congressman kevin mccarthy ousted as house speaker. that's the first time in history a speaker has been removed through a no confidence vote. first ever the final tally 216 to 210 with eight republicans, you see tm there, breaking from their party to oust mccarthy after a far-right republican congressman introduced the motion to remove mccarthy on monday. after his ouster, the now former speaker spoke to reporters about his removal. >> i don't regret standing up for choosing governing over grievance. it is my responsibility. it is my job. i do not regret negotiating. our government is designed to find compromise. i may have lost a vote today. but as i walk out of the this chamber, i feel fortunate to served the american people. i leave the speakership with a sense of pride, accomplishment and, yes, optimism. i fought for what i believe in and i believe in this country of

america. my goals have not changed. i believe i can continue to fight, maybe in a different manner. i will not run for speaker again. i'll have the conference pick somebody else. >> pride, accomplishment and optimism, says kevin mccarthy. so now congressman patrick mchenry of north carolina becomes the speaker pro tem. mchenry was chosen from a list of potential successors submitted by mccarthy back in nuary to the house clerk. he is an ally of mccarthy's. since 2003, houseul required the speaker to submit a list of names of members to act in the case of his or her vacancy. republicans will hold a speaker candidate forum next tuesday for the candidate for the full house election next wednesday. so a week from today is when they will vote for the next house speaker. so, joe, 270 days, 9 months kevin mccarthy lasted. and this all goes back to something we talked about the day it happened. on that 15th vote in order to

become house speaker, he had to agree to the rule that one member of the house of representatives could raise a motion to vacate the chair. a lot of people said, oh, that's never going to happen. we said don't be so sure. here we today. the other thing to note, no matter how loyal you are to donald trump, no matter how you rushed down to mar-a-lago to rehab his reputation after january 6th, he ain't coming to save you in the end. loyalty is a one-way street. >> yeah, alwayeen a one-way street. and when -- really was fay ta come plea as soon as he -- one person to knock him out, that's bluntly how we ran gingrich out of town in 1998. but it is amazing that the republicans hold one branch of government. one branch of government. the house, half of a brank of government. and it's just absolute chaos,

madness and i must say perhaps you file this one under letting calmer heads prevail? but to go on a one-week recess -- i'm sorry. you don't have your you know what together better than that to go on a one week recess so they can get their thoughts together? with everything going on in this country, jonathan lemire, you'll still have 96% of the caucus engaged for the people who did this for weird, bizarre reasons. they don't line up. they can say what they want to say. they can talk about the budget. they're lying because they've never cared about the budget or spending before. they can talk about broken promises. i mean, so "wall street journal" said, you know, they're attacking mccarthy for not passing enough appropriation bills when they were the ones that stopped them from passing

the appropriation bills. here is the take away line, though. the ouster captures the degraded state of the republican party in this era of rage. that from the very conservative "wall street journal" editorial page who is throwing their hands up this morning, like most republicans saying what in the hell is going on in washington, d.c. with the republicans. >> yeah. and it's so important that we say this is not the house of representatives in chaos. this is the republicans in the house in chaos. and democrats yesterday made the decision they weren't going to save mccarthy. they didn't appreciate how he bad mouthed them in a series of interviews over the weekend. we showed that photograph he took with donald trump in january of 2021, just a couple weeks after january 6th which started trump's rehabilitation

in the gop. that was the one moment perhaps the party could have cut ties with him. they did not. they're angry about the impeachment inquiry that mccarthy commissioned into president biden. and mccarthy has been hanging by a thread for a while. matt gaetz and others wielded this threat easy move. someone close to mccarthy told me it was like negotiating with terrorist and they were never able to satisfy them. there's pure fury within the gop against gaetz and others who moved to vacate mccarthy, to oust mccarthy. mccarthy read the room last night, realized he had no path to holding his speakership. there was some thought he might fight to keep it. he walked away. now republicans disappear. the house goes out of session for a week. we're only 40 odd days until the government runs out of funding again. that just ups here the drama and

disarray and chaos brought forth by republicans a source saying to jonathan lemire what many people said is that they are like terrorists but political terrorists. political terrorists without any demands. a question asked one of them, what else do you want from kevin mccarthy back when the first vote was going in january. well, we really have nothing else to ask of him. again, "wall street journal" says members in safe seats. that's the thing, all of these members are in safe seats. members in safe seats can fuel their own fundraising and their careers to claiming to, quote, fight against all insundry without doing any of the hard work to accomplish what they claim to be fighting for. we have been talking how the republican party turned under donald trump into the party of

gestures. this is the ultimate gesture shutting down the united states house of representatives and sending out fundraising letters while you're doing it when you have no path forward, with 96% of the republican conference is against you. and yet, just 4% are able to shut down the house and then fund raise off of it. >> right. and that's the sign -- that's what's -- really puts a fine point of what's going on here. i have heard the last 24 hours the repeated invocation of the notion that this is a republican civil war. it's not a republican civil war. this is not the moderate wing against the conservative wing or the establishment wing against the insurgent wing. this is a party that is not -- there has been this ideological inbreeding.

this is an argument over tactics. what has happened over the course and objectives and what has happened over the course of the takeover of the party by donald trump and the maga wing that's become the whole of the party, all these people so mad at matt gaetz and the other seven republicans who voted to send the house into this chaos and take down kevin mccarthy, they have catered to that wing over and over and over again. they have given it everything it wants. and you know, when you keep feeding the monster, the monster just gets stronger and hungrier and more ravenous and more willing to do what it will do for whatever reason. kevin mccarthy didn't just lose because he made a deal with the devil. he showed matt gaetz back in february, january, he said basically i will do anything to be speaker of the house. and the one thing, joe, you know when it comes to political power and leadership, as soon as you show the oh side that you're willing to do anything, no line

you won't cross, no principle you won't compromises, you'll do anything to get the thing you want, you know you will not have that thing for very long. and that is the perfect symbol of what's happened with this entire ideological takeover. the party capitulated to the matt gaetz's of the world and the progeny of donald trump. now they are in their -- they're in their ring. they have all the power and it's bonkers. >> yeah. it is bonkers. willie, john is so right. he wanted it to too much. you can't ever want a position that much. you can't give away everything you've set yourself up for failure. it is one of the things i learned in congress early on when some senior member wanted to appoint me to run a task force and i had an aid look it over and say, well, you can't do this unless you're set up to

succeed. they have you set up to fail. and it was a really great lesson. you don't run and jump at the first offer. you wait when that offer comes in. you have an ability to actually -- succeed at the tasks that you want to succeed at. kevin mccarthy, we all knew it and we all said it in realtime, was so desperate to be speaker of the house that he set himself up for failure. boy, it melted down yesterday. >> yeah. you want a job so bad but what is the job exactly? he was set up for his speakership to be hell in the hands of one member. that's exactly what happened yesterday. one member took him out, got seven other people to come with him. and jen, part of what mccarthy needed to survive because of that, because he knew he didn't have enough republican votes from this insurgent group, he needed democrats to help him out. john just did a good job detailing the reasons why democrats ultimately said, you

know what, we're not going to save you on this. you just opened an impeachment inquiry, you authorized an impeachment inquiry into president biden with no evidence that he did anything whatsoever. mccarthy, you walked away from a deal we had on the budget, on and on and on. they said, you know what, we're not going to save your job. you have to put in the work and build a relationship for us to do that. and they said, no. >> yeah. i was on the hill yesterday and talked to a lot of moderate democrats and asked them, was this a tough call on your part to not back mccarthy because arguably chaos is not good and they make it -- they may end up with a worse speaker than mccarthy. and everyone said, no. it was clear from the start that the democratic caucus was united. it wasn't petty partisanship. he was mean to us on "face the nation." it was we can't trust this guy. we made deals with him, he walks away. they made the deal in the spring to pass a debt limit on spending. he walked away from that.

they just realized ultimately we can't save kevin mccarthy. i think as a practical matter it would not have worked if democrats yesterday started voting for kevin mccarthy, what would have happened? i think republicans would have walked away from him. right? house democrats cannot prop up a republican speaker. that ultimately was never going to work. >> hey, jen, let's really quickly here -- let's talk about what you just said about kevin mccarthy not being able to be trusted. all the b.s. you hear coming out of washington, d.c. and all the b.s. you hear coming from talk shows and podcasts and everything else. you would think that everybody in congress and washington lies to each other and everybody in congress and everybody in washington hates each other. it's all show biz. for the most part they don't. now, members of their own party hate each other. it's a very weird thing. you know, find two strong senators from the same state,

they always -- they always hate each other but they'll smile and hug each other. >> it's competition. >> again, going back to a lesson learned in congress. i remember very explicitly a guy went up on the floor offering an amendment after promising in the conference he wasn't going to do it. that guy was toast for the rest of his career. nobody, nobody would trust that guy because you can say there's honor among thieves. but it's like being a lawyer in a small town. you don't lie to another lawyer. because if you lie to another lawyer, nobody in that legal community will ever trust you again. so, it is a strange thing that kevin mccarthy made so many promises that members of both parties say he didn't keep. you can't survive that.

you just can't survive it. politics aside, you have to keep your word on the hill because it's a very small boat everybody is rowing in. >> and you know, two of the republicans who voted against him, nancy mace and tim, i interviewed both of them. they voted for him 15 times to be speaker in january. each of them walked away. tim was really upset about spending. he aels -- about the cr deal and just about spending in general and didn't see it getting under control. he was on cnn on tuesday night and said he needed to pray over his decision about whether or not he was going to vote for mccarthy. and mccarthy called him the next day and was condescending, so did the lord answer your prayer. sure did. sure did. i am not voting for you. >> nancy mace felt like she had been misled by him on a number of issues including issues related to post roe abortion. and those two walked away from

him as well for very different reasons. >> yep. well, we have a lot to get to here, including donald trump having a gag order issued on him. that case going from bad to worse for him. but we'll back in 60 seconds. and when we come back in 60 seconds, i'm going to have david drucker take us inside the republican conference, tell us what happened last night and also tell us who is in lain to be the next speaker of the. that's in 60 seconds. next speat that's in 60 seconds conquer financial reports. conquer 2000-word essays. conquer 300 thank-you notes. rule over what you write with the smooth writing, longest lasting gel ink pen in america. do you g2?

i don't have a lot of advice for my house colleagues other than this, follow your heart. but take your brain with you. the american people expect us to govern. and in order to govern, you have to have leadership and you have

to stick with that leadership to give that leadership a chance. i would also advise all my house colleagues to be sure and take their meds. >> oh my god. wait a minute. that was fabulous on every level. >> take your meds. >> but the first part is know your value advice. i have to right that down. follow your heart but take your brain with you. >> it's kind of like when james patterson ad exec. wanted to be a novelist, he pursued it but kept his job. >> senator john kennedy of louisiana with that assessment of house republicans. off lot to unpack with david drucker. >> i do, david. i saw you yesterday talking about the caucus and rightly how enraged they were at a small handful of people who blew things up. i bet a lot were saying what

"the wall street journal" was saying. the house is frozen. the gop majority is weaker. oversight of the biden administration will stop. republicans in swing districts obviously in trouble. the crazy left and the crazy right are cheering. but no one else is. david, how enraged are the republicans at these few holdouts that basically blew up their majority and turned -- actually turned the house over to the democrats for now. >> yeah. look, joe, i think what's clear is that a number of house republicans are extremely angry. what's unclear is whether they plan to at least try to do anything about it. i think we have to step back and understand that this is not a moderate versus conservative battle. most house republicans, and i mean the vast majority, are as conservative as the next republican philosophically and

would like to govern that way but there's a difference between the pragmatists who want to govern and understand they have to govern and that means they have to make choices in a divided government and those who want to fight for their own sake and have unrealistic expectations what's possible. as i was talking to republicans around washington, some were extremely upset with the small group that up ended everything said there has to be pay back. there has to be consequences to this sort of behavior to make sure it never happens again. and that the rules package that the next speaker will live under has to be a normal rules package that gives them running room. and one of the things that we simply don't know regardless of who the next speaker is whether they're going to have any more room to lead and govern than kevin mccarthy has had. i covered kevin mccarthy for more than 20 years.

i was in california when he was a freshman assemblyman. and there have always been complaints that he tries to get from one day to the next without thinking about how all of the promises or deals he makes are going to work together. that may be fair, it may not be fair. but one thing that you and i know is true is what happened yesterday has really been building in the party particularly in the house of representatives for more than a decade where you've had recalcitrant members who wanted more out of divided government than is humanly possible because whatever republicans want to think about democrats and their policies, they're not pushovers just like republicans aren't pushovers. when you get elected president of the united states, when you're the senate majority leader, when you're the house speaker, you care as much about your stuff as republicans do about theirs. yet pushed by the conservative media, pushed by party leaders like donald trump, they've been

told, no, just fight. just fight. hold out. and if you just fight, then the other side will capitulate and you'll get everything you want. that's just simply not the case. so 40 days from now, or by the time they choose a new speaker, 40 days after that when it's time to work with a democratic senate and a democratic white house and fund the government and the whole host of priorities that the american people say they want, will the new speaker be given the latitude to cut compromises that give republicans some things but yes also give democrats somein we don't know the answer to that. >> i mean, it's just the reality, david. you're so right. i have warned the president or two. and incoming members of white house staffs in senior positions. you need to understand the most important relationship you can have is with the minority leader of the senate. if you're a republican and that minority leader is a democrat or

if you're a democrat and that minority leader is a republican, that's your most important relationship. start there and build out because this is divided government, baby. nobody is going to -- there's a reason why we have survived for as long as we have. it's incremental. it's meant to frustrate. david, you're so right. the thing is these people that were blowing things up there, they have nothing to lose. they're in safe districts where they're going to get 70, 75% of the vote so they get to blow the house of representatives up. they get to set unrealistic goals. then they raise millions of dollars from $25 donations from across the country. >> joe, it's a problem -- not only that, joe, but they'll go back home to their districts and be applauded for this. >> oh, yeah. >> it's not that they're in a district drawn to elect

republicans. they're going to get a slap on the back and say that a boy. keep doing it. we expect a fight. and it's the fight that matters. anything you might achieve legislatively is automatically suspect because it's impure, because if joe biden was willing to sign it and chuck schumer is willing to put it on the senate floor, there must be something wrong with it. >> yeah, yeah. it's called hold your breath, everybody, american democracy. so willie, there are a lot of reasons why republicans and democrats didn't trust kevin mccarthy. kevin mccarthy last night had defenses for everybody. but you know, if you're a democrat -- i will say i'm an institutionalist. there are moments i said six, seven, eight democrats would vote present because what's happening to a republican

speaker could happen to a democratic speaker. and you don't want to have one person be able to blow an entire institution up. that said, democrats, you know -- >> he didn't give a lot of reasons. >> they looked at what kevin mccarthy said on the floor, how outraged he was, visited mar-a-lago and helped resurrect. every time you talk about january 6th, he was blaming the democrats for january the 6th. john heilemann brought up, i know you're going to him, but john heilemann has brought up he turned over security tapes of january 6th. he was so craven. we could keep going down the list. this was just a guy that would do anything to survive the next five minutes, just like donald trump. and nobody could trust him at the end. >> yeah. and he turned over those tapes, why, at the insistence of the same members who voted him out of office yesterday. he was asked yesterday about any regrets he had. i guess the only regret i have

is supporting these eight people who just ran me out of office, raising money for them, helping them get rere-elected. he did that. john heilemann, getting the rules changed so this doesn't happen again. why would matt gaetz and that group, why would they agree to a change when that rule gives them all the power that they've been displaying for nine months. in other words, whoever the next speaker of the house is, may again face this same conundrum which is that one member can raise the motion to vacate and therefore this tiny minority of the house of representatives, eight or ten members, 435, wield all the power over the majority. in other words, isn't this just going to potentially happen again to the next speaker? >> well, it all depends, willie, on whether anybody actually learns the lessons from kevin mccarthy. whoever the next speaker is cannot, if he expects to -- he or she expects to have a

different fate than kevin mccarthy, cannot allow -- be -- capitulate completely to matt gaetz on this point. this was the ultimate thing that showed that mccarthy would do whatever -- anything. had no limits of what he would throw away was the agreement that this was the thing gaetz wants. gaetz said to mccarthy, i want to have your political balls in my pocket. please hand them over. mccarthy did. if you do that, you know that eventually you're going to get squeezed, right? that's what happened to mccarthy throughout. the next speaker has to say no to that. and if that means that a succession of speakers have to stand up and defy matt gaetz, he has to be broken. gaetz has to be broken if the republican party is going to be functional again. it's not going -- still going to be the maga party larger. chip roy literally was calling out gaetz yesterday, challenged him to a fistfight. that's what the republican party

needs. they have to break -- the hold of matt gaetz and these eight terrorists on their own caucus. if they don't do that, this cycle will play out again and again. that means for a period of time, they have to endure having no speaker in order to get that -- the more normal order, they have to make that compromise and live with that pain and point the finger at gaetz, but he is the person who is causing this and that caucus what's causing the chaos that unfolds. it's the only way back. >> joe, mika, let's talk briefly about who might be the next speaker and have to deal with those legislative terrorists in the early sense of it, calling around yesterday, steve scalise, the minority leader, and jim jordan are the leaders in the clubhouse at this moment. they both broadly appeal to conservatives in the house. they appeal to some of those far right wingers. scalise and mccarthy have been rivals for a decade or more. there's no secret there. scalise, we should note, is battling cancer.

he said in the last day or so that he feels good, he would be up for this challenge. we know he was calling around last night to fellow republicans, meeting with the texas delegation today. that's the biggest republican state delegation. they wield a lot of influence. scalise clearly wants the job. jordan making calls as well. others mentioned, but all of these prospective speakers will have trouble winning over some of the moderate or mainstream republicans, those who come from biden-won districts, particularly those in new york state. this will be a real challenge for anyone to get to the magic number, to become speaker. we saw kevin mccarthy struggle with it back earlier this year. every belief that will happen again. it comes against the backdrop of another looming government shutdown. >> and the thing is -- i just will say, i don't think it's about one member. there's always -- as long as you have this rule, there's always going to be one member that will do this. step forward and use this to

raise money. before they vote for another speaker, whoever that speaker may be, they need to change the rules. and they need to make sure that you have to have a majority of the conference if you're going to actually vacate the chair. that is the only way forward. the republican party should just sit there and wait. >> what a mess. >> until they get that rule change passed. because right now they're just making fools of themselves. here is a split screen in america. and a split screen in america where you have joe biden, a democratic president, with approval ratings in the 30s. this is a very good opportunity for the republican party. yet that split screen has a four-time indicted guy up in manhattan about to lose his ability to even run a business in new york state because, well, he's been lying and cheating and defrauding people for 30, 40

years. you know it's true. everybody in new york knows it's true because everybody has been saying it for 30 or 40 years. then you got the republicans in the house of representatives, they can't even keep the joint open. think about that. they're given one part of government to run, one. they can't even keep it open. it's just bad news. they need to set themselves up for success. >> senior writer for the dispatch, david drucker, thank you so much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. we'll see you soon. and coming up, donald trump the other big story this morning, expected to be in court again today for day three of his new york civil fraud trial. just one day after the judge slapped him with a gag order following a rant on social media. we'll take a look at what might happen if trump can't keep quiet. that's ahead on "morning joe." quiet.

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away from her inside the courtroom. on truth social and in an email to his supporters, he insinuated the clerk had a personal relationship with senate majority leader chuck schumer. there's no evidence to support that. trump later repeated those claims while speaking to reporters when the court went on a lunch break. during that break, judge engoron summoned one of former president's lawyers and his son eric to his chambers and told them to take the post down. once the trial resumed, the judge issued the gag order but not before the trump campaign sent out a disparaging email about judge engoron himself. if the order is broken, the judge says it could lead to, quote, swift, meaningful sanctions. trump says he'll be back in court today for day three of the punishment phase of that trial. joining us now, bloomberg legal and politics reporter eric larson. he was inside the courtroom yesterday covering trump's fraud trial. also with us, former u.s. attorney barbara mcquaid.

welcome back. take us inside the courtroom how this played out yesterday and how strictly this judge plans to implement a gag order that donald trump is almost certainly going to violate. >> around lunch, this gag order was issued. even from the behavior that we have come to expect from trump on social media and attacking judges and prosecutors, it took a lot of people by surprise that he went after this particular clerk who is very close with the judge and has been in court many times over the past year and even before the lawsuit was filed. when she was involved with the judge's efforts to get trump to comply with subpoenas and efforts like that. so trump's lawyers are very familiar with this clerk. they have worked with her closely for a while now. and so, for him to take this pointed attack on her, i'm not

surprised actually that the judge reacted in this way. the judge does not -- he's not afraid to sanction trump. you might recall he sanctioned trump for failing to respond appropriately to a subpoena in the attorney general's investigation before the suit was filed. that resulted in a $10,000 a day fine that ended up being about $110,000 before trump finally came into compliance. so this judge is not afraid to sanction trump. i'm sure he will follow through on this threat if trump does do this again. >> so barbara, in your experience, what power does a judge have? and what power does a judge wield, no matter who the defendant is, whether they stole a pack of gum or in this case defrauded companies to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, according to the evidence in this case, to enforce this kind of a gag order. donald trump has never been afraid to attack judges, to attack witnesses, to attack the clerk in this case inside the courtroom while the trial is going on, punishment phase of

it. so what will happen if he does it again? >> so judges have a great deal of discretion and power in managing cases that are before them. and that includes ordering defendants not to speak about the case publicly. i found this to be a very refreshing and swift move by this judge after so many other judges in the other cases pending against donald trump have been very reluctant to impose gag orders. and the judge has the ability to impose whatever sanction he believes is appropriate. it's usually sort of escalating levels of sanctions. so i doubt he would be jailed after the first infraction, but perhaps a warning is the first step. then maybe a fine is the next step. but at some point, the ultimate penalty the judge can impose is to jail donald trump for contempt of court if he continues to refuse to comply with the order. >> so, just curious because trump does -- just in terms of his behavior, seem more angry

actually personally angry than usual not feigned anger to whip up the base. i'm curious, does this seem focussed on his social media posts or can the words that he uses ultimately cause sanctions and consequences as well? he was going after the judge before this loudly to reporters during these proceedings. so i wonder about that. and also, what do you think the constraints are on his business right now given this litigation, this trial that's going on? >> well, with regards to the gag order, the judge was quite narrow in focussing solely on the court's staff. i think it goes beyond social media. just the court staff. it's a shot across the bow. it's very narrow now. but if trump should issue something that goes beyond the bounds of this, i think the jung made it clear he will not be reluctant to impose a gag order even if that needs to be

expanded. with regard to your second question about the trump business enterprise, the judge already issued an order canceling the certificate of various business entities in the trump organization. so for things like the financial buildings in manhattan, the golf courses in new york, those are now sort of on hold with the idea of appointing a receiver for the purpose of liquidation. i think we have to get through this week's trial to determine what the penalties are because the attorney general is seeking if that is ordered, the properties may need to be liquidated to satisfy that payment. >> let's move beyond the gag order and tell us what happened yesterday in the trial itself and also what we should expect today. there have been some speculation that trump would not attend today's hearing because he was going to leave. but now he said he will be there again. how much longer do you think that will happen in. >> we are expecting him today.

i wouldn't be surprised if he showed up for the rest of the week. he indicated in a court filing in an unrelated case that he would be here all week. we'll see. he'll be there today. there's going to be another accountant on the witness stand. yesterday his long-time accountant testified under questioning from the state that he would not have signed off on donald trump's annual statements of financial condition if he had been aware that he wasn't getting all of the documents necessary including appraisals of his key properties that conflicted with what the trump organization had been telling him. today we're going to hear from another accountant from trump's new accounting firm, texas-based accounting firm, they actually challenged a subpoena earlier in the case during the investigation trying to avoid handing over documents. they eventually agreed to do that. so now they're clearly trying to set a pattern here of showing what the trump organization

handed over to their accountants to illustrate what their actually assets are. of course, the other thing we're going to be watching for is trump's demeanor in court after this gag order has silenced him in a way and he's not going to be happy about it. >> no. >> no. not used to being told exactly what to do. bloomberg's eric larson and former u.s. attorney barbara mcquaid, thank you both very much for your reporting and insight this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," russian president vladimir putin has his eyes set on a new target. we'll explain what officials are worried he'll do next to end u.s. support for ukraine. plus, we'll get reaction from former new jersey governor chris christie about kevin mccarthy's ouster and more. and congressman jim clyburn will weigh in, did democrats make a smart move by not rescuing mccarthy? "morning joe" will be right back. ng mccthy? "morning joe" will be right back

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♪♪ 51 past the hour. a beautiful shot of washington, d.c. as the sun comes up this morning and people are headed to work. >> well, yeah. except for people that work in the house of representatives. >> no, they're not working for a week at least. >> that got shut down. >> can't do america's business. >> can't keep it open. it's "wall street journal" editorial page, republicans cut off their own heads. john heilemann a lot of stuff to get to. i wanted to bring up a couple of things with you, though. let's think back to a year ago. joe biden gives a speech in philadelphia on democracy with sort of that red background behind him. you have a lot of, quote, truth tellers saying that biden was an idiot to talk about democracy. it was never going to help out. one of the people attacking was kevin mccarthy because joe biden said, main street republicans,

you need to stand up to maga republicans. or you will rue the day that you don't. mccarthy went crazy. said it was a decisive speech. joe biden was dividing america. couple weeks later, all the so-called truth tellers proved to be idiots. americans did care about democracy. and kevin mccarthy, kevin mccarthy left with a very, very small margin because he did not heed the advice of joe biden here. so i mean, the white house isn't saying it, but my gosh, let's say it here. biden warned them this was going to happen. one other thing we haven't talked about really quickly, we saw chaos and anarchy on the republican side of the chamber yesterday. we saw extraordinary discipline on the democratic side with hakeem jeffries. there were a lot of factions, as you know, wanted to break out, roll over the extremists and let mccarthy keep his job by not

being there voting present. hakeem jeffries and the leadership kept that party together. >> yeah. it's extraordinary, joe. on the first point, just biden warned them people said he was crazy, that republicans tried to stand up to the maga faction. mccarthy gets the tiniest majority in the midterms. then when he gets to do what he does -- deal he has to make to get to be speaker, he does the opposite of what biden suggested. he doesn't stand up to maga faction at all, he has to pay the price. he turned away biden's advice twice. the thing about jeffries is there has been a question. he is in the most enviable position in american politics, following in the footsteps of a legend. the question has been, when the big test comes of hakeem jeffries, will he be up to

meeting that test? and this was a huge test yesterday. democrats are like herding cats. and there are lots of good reasons that you could have come up with for doing a deal to help mccarthy out. made a deal with ukraine aid. the next person that comes after mccarthy will be worse on mccarthy. more on trustworthy, more maga, moderate institutionalists on the democrat side don't like chaos or be part of chaos. jeffries skillfully through both actions -- small actions like he took in the caucus meeting yesterday and larger acts of discipline he kept this unruly democratic coalition together. there was not a single defection away from -- eight republicans did this to kevin mccarthy, but 2008 democrats did this also to kevin mccarthy yesterday. he passed his first big political test with flying colors yesterday. >> yes. >> john heilemann, thank you

very much. john mentioned ukraine yesterday at the white house. national security counsel official john kirby reiterated u.s. support for ukraine despite the recent drop in funding by congress in the latest spending bill. >> as ukrainians wage a tough counteroffensive, as their children continue to get ripped from the bussom of their families, a lapse in support for even a short period of time could make all the difference on the battlefield. just as critically such a lapse in support will make putin believe that he can wait us out. and that he can continue to conflict until we and our allies and our partners fault. >> meanwhile, "the new york times" reports that russia's strategy to secure victory in ukraine is to outlast western support. according to the times, quote, u.s. officialsai they are

convinced putin intends to try to end u.s. and european support for ukraine by using his spy agencies to push propaganda supporting pro-russian political parties and by stoking conspiracy theories with the new technologies. joining us now, the former director of the department of homeland security cybersecurities infrastructure security agency, chris krebs, a partner in the cybersecurity firm, the krebs stamos group. talk about if you could just how they can impact u.s. support for ukraine and also european support and are they already doing that? >> absolutely. and i have to say i'm a little taken a back because my view was that they were going to mainly target the 2024 election. they were going to try to get influence outcomes this time next year but they have been able to move their schedule up a little bit with the current chaos that's going on in the

house of representatives. there are about three things happening right now. one is this uptick of activity across social media platforms, information operations to influence hearts and mind in europe and elsewhere. at the same time, we're seeing platforms including twitter pull back on the mechanisms that had been put in place over the last several years including some of the trust and safety election safety team they built up in the wake of the 2016 election as well as some of the tools they have on the platform including self reporting of political activity. this is really allowed a devil's playground on social media platforms taking advantage of a moment of chaos and continuing to drive wedges across american and western society. >> hey, chris, good morning. you said that twitter has built the perfect platform for foreign manipulators to get into congress, to manipulate public opinion and to also manipulate, of course, parts of the 2024 election process. what is it about twitter in particular that makes it so

vulnerable? >> well, for one reason or the other over the last several years it seems some political officials started to view twitter as the real world. and i think we all know that it's not the real world. that it's, in fact, a very synthetic environment. there are trolls. there are bots. there are fake users on there. and just because you say something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. at the same time, twitter has pulled back some of their capabilities just last week they removed their election integrity team they built up in dublin, ireland. as i just mentioned, they removed some of the self reporting tools including the ability to pull up and report an election-related or political related disinformation. this allowed a number of different of the teams, the fake news, the platforms that the russians have built up over the last couple years to get in disinformation. and then, you know, at a time where everyone is looking for the latest breaking news, they

jump on without verifying a post or something that has been put out there. and it just spirals out of control effectively. >> chris, there's no doubt that u.s. officials we heard from john kirby there are deeply worried that now it seems like the u.s. support for ukraine is in question. there was no funding for ukraine in the cr passed over the weekend. mccarthy had said, at least, publicly that he wanted to help. he's gone. white house isn't sure who they're dealing with now. so, what is your degree of concern there about the aid but also back to the twitter point, isn't the other reason why twitter is the perfect venue for russian propaganda is because of who owns twitter, and elon musk seems to be actively helping at times. >> on the last point, it was pretty concerning over the weekend with some of the posts that elon posted, including the meme of zelenskyy not getting the latest batch of funding from

the u.s. look, we're at a moment we're building up towards 2024. the 2024 global election cycle is going to be one of the most active in recent memory. this is mexico, this is the u.s., several european elections and taiwan. we focus a lot on russia, but we have to remember that china is incredibly active in this space and meta a month or so ago released a report where they took down the largest information operation that they had seen in their history of tracking these sorts of campaigns. so, it's a very active space. and we have diminishing transparency and visibility into how the platforms are establishing their content moderation policies, how they're actually acting against it and what their interactions with governments are worldwide. so, as things get -- seem to get worse out there, we're losing visibility. >> all right, chris krebs, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. it is the top of the hour. and willie, we have so much to

get to this hour on "morning joe." >> yeah. let's return to our top story of the morning. last night congressman kevin mccarthy was ousted as house speaker. inal tally was 216 to 210 with eight rubcans breaking from the party to oust mccarthy after a far right republican coressman introduced the motion to remove mccarthy on monday. after his ouster, the now former speaker spoke to reporters about losing his job. >> i don't regret standing up for choosing governing over grievance. it is my responsibility. it is my job. i do not regret negotiating. our government is designed to find compromise. i may have lost a vote today, but as i walk out of this chamber, i feel fortunate to have served the american people. i leave the speakership with a sense of pride, accomplishment

and, yes, optimism. i fought for what i believe in. and i believe in this country of america. my goals have not changed. i believe i continue to fight maybe in a different manner. i will not run for speaker again. i'll have the conference pick somebody else. >> so you heard it there, guys. kevin mccarthy will not run again. there will be a new election but not until next wednesday. so the house is now no more votes until next tuesday, which is when they come back, allowing this week it will be a wild week of jostling and positioning to try to get the job. we heard some of the names this morning of people who might get it. but kevin mccarthy last 269 days, about nine months and all goes back to his getting the job on that 15th vote back in january when he agreed to a rule that one member of the house could raise a motion to vacate the chair, effectively costing him his job. he made that deal and it lost him his job yesterday. >> it was dramatic, historic in

many ways but it was not a shock given the deal he cut. he made himself -- you make your bed, you know. what your mom always says. but it was a weird speech, rambling. >> i'll go back to you on that. let's do a split of jonathan and willie. did you guys see the entire speech? >> it was a lot. it was a lot. >> i want to be -- >> a trip down memory lane and history. twists and turns i didn't expect. >> i never cheer when people fall politically. >> no, i know. >> you can't help but in some way, whether it's republican or democrat, feel bad about him. i will say there was a painful speech that took us on a tour of germany from 1933 to munich and

chamberlain. >> a lou gehrig parallel. >> and then i just got to say, kids, if you're at home, and you're closing out your speech, don't compare your political fate to the fate of lou gehrig as he was dying of one of the most monstrous diseases then known to man. it was a it was a painful speech on a number of levels. >> yeah. all that was missing was that echo through the canyons of yankee stadium. today, today, today, i consider myself, myself, myself, the luckiest man. yeah, he went full lou gehrig at the end. john, he was, of course, defensive. >> you never go full gehrig. >> no, no, no. >> one of the greats. he was very defensive, john, when he was talking about those eight members that voted against him. well, my big regret is that i helped him get re-elected, put

them in the positions where they are so they could cost me my job. >> yeah, no question there. mccarthy's political brand was get along kevin. everyone sort of liked him but no one trusted him. that was his undoing yesterday as well. those eight republicans say they feel like he broke promises to them. matt gaetz and others were never going to be satisfied. they were out for mccarthy's head from day one. it was one of the shortest tenured speakerships we have ever seen. the first to end like this. for someone who spent his whole career looking to achieve that post it was taken quickly, suddenly and frankly embarrassing fashion. >> he gave no democrats a choice.

you would be voting for a man, i'm sorry, just -- there's -- there's a crass way of putting it who did not keep his word on many things but also just did some things that democrats would then go down in flames for supporting him. i mean, his actions after january 6th, what he has said about january 6th, impeachment of joe biden proceedings. >> turning the january 6th security tapes. >> it was no deal. >> let's bring in msnbc contributor, mike barnicle, msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill, chris matthews, former republican congressman david jolly. david jolly, of florida, msnbc political analyst, brendan buck, a former aide to house speakers paul ryan and john boehner. i want you to look at this. >> this is great. >> put 87 people up. do you know what all these people have in common? they all worked in the house.

one way or the other. chris matthews was a cop. the house or the senate. i'm sorry, house of lords member. i meant to say congress. i hope you aren't sullied that i dare, dared -- >> know your value, claire. >> to put you -- connect you to the people's house. chris matthews, you started out as a cop there and you ended up working with tip pa o'neal. >> wow. >> let's talk about how at the end of the day, talking about for people who want to get into politics, it's -- i'm sorry, it's not that hard. it's really not. it's about -- it's personal. it's about people trusting you. it's about people liking you. you talked about tip and reagan building that relationship. >> having no memory. >> bill clinton talking about having no memory at all. and you know, i always -- i was over my years in congress, i was

always one of the most conservative members there with my acu ratings. 95, 96%. i never once walked in the chamber and sat on the republican side. i went to the democrat side and made friends with people that i had nothing in common with. max seen waters, hug her on the floor. get away from me. you'll destroy my reputation and district. it was all about building personal relationships and letting people know they could trust you. kevin mccarthy, i don't think he ever got that memo. >> you know, i'm glad you had me on this morning. every morning for six years, half dozen years i got up with speaker o'neal. the ten-year speaker of the house. he had two agendas. he had to decide what he was going to say that day but more importantly had to decide what's going to be on the floor of the house.

he decided what's going to come up and also decided what had to come up, like the continuing resolution, the debt ceiling. that's the combination you have to meet when you're speaker. you have to agree to push things that are good and hold on to other things that are bad. there's a word must. they should all have that in their mind. the problem with matt gaetz is that he became speaker of the house. he decided they were not going to do anything like -- anything reasonable. they were going to shut down the government. going to impeach or try to impeach joe biden. they were going to cut off aid basically to ukraine. all the bad stuff. and all the speaker of the house had technically to do was to follow the orders of matt gaetz. in other words, he yielded the power of the speakership to one guy from florida. that's what he did. once that was done, he was finished. it was all written in the first 15 votes. so he gave it away. there's only one guy laughing

right now, guys, and that's donald trump. he got to see somebody else made a fool of. and also nancy pelosi, one of the great speakers of modern times. she is good at finesse, finesse. how to tell the truth. be honest with everybody but work them with each other and put some people time limit some people when they want to cause trouble but get things done. he took away her private office. give me a break. that was his last -- >> oh my god. >> power move. give me a break. this guy is not a leader. >> yeah. you know, tell me if i'm maybe i'm too naive. it's knowing how to work with people and knowing how to work people. and kevin mccarthy could have done a deal with democrats. he could have gotten six, seven, eight, nine people -- you know, everybody is saying, well, he couldn't do that or else he could have faced even more problems from his own side.

well, there are subtle ways to do things. you don't always have to get in front of microphones. i'm just curious, do you think there was any way for kevin mccarthy, if eh had built up these relationships and had the trust to have survived yesterday? or do you think he was doomed from the second he agreed to that rule change? >> in some ways i do think he was doomed. he did have lots of great relationships with democrats. he is one of the most affable people in the house. the problem is when he decided he wanted to become speaker of the house, he had to become a new person. he spent basically every moment since paul ryan left office making sure that he was in position to get that gavel when ever republicans took back the house. that's of course going down to mar-a-lago. it's all the promises that he made all those things he had to do become republican speaker of the house.

he would go on bike rides with democrats. all kinds of stuffs like that. but that kind of stuff is a fireable offense to be republican speaker these days. so none of that held up. he obviously those relationships didn't hold up. and it's because of all the things you have to do now to get the job and whoever is next will have to do all of those very same things. i don't think this gets any better. democrats, i understand why they didn't want to save kevin mccarthy. you look at this as a vote about kevin mccarthy, i get. this was a vote about matt gaetz. you empowered matt gaetz to take over the house and choose the next speaker. all of those things will be demands that whoever is next will have to make. >> claire, that is my question to you. why is there any reason to believe this gets better whoever gets this job next. the predicate has been laid. matt gaetz now knows even though it's him and nine or 11 other people of 435, they hold the

power as long as this rule is in place. they can extract whatever they want, including getting rid of the next speaker. >> well, i think you're still going to see chaos. and if the rule gets changed, that will make a big difference. whoever is running for speaker needs to remember the four cardinal rules. number one is keep your word. number two is keep your word. number three is be able to count votes. number four is negotiate if you don't have the votes but never from a position of weakness. those are the four rules. kevin mccarthy violated all of them. why in the world wouldn't he have negotiated then for a different speaker? and figured out a way to turn over the speakership in a classy way without having to be publicly embarrassed and have history always remember him as the only speaker removed from

office by his own party. whoever is running for speaker will have to address whether or not they're willing to shut down the government. and if this person gets elected, being willing to shut down the government, then all of those republican house members that won in biden districts are toast. they're done. it's over. >> it can't be shorthanded, mike, that it's the house in chaos. it's the republicans in the house who are in chaos. and this is indeed historic moment. a telling one about where this republican party stands. the party of trump. the party in which the white house and democrats are eager to draw contrasts from. what does this moment mean right now about the house of representatives but more than that the republican party? >> i would hesitate to disagree with you, jonathan, on one element. all of like you said is accurate. there's a larger casualty than

the house, than the chaos in the house, than the lack of governing in the house and it's the country. our country. the united states of america. the speaker of the house is a institutional officer. a lot of people think it's an elected political officer. chris matthews knows, it's a constitutional officer. it's in line to become president, the speaker of the house, whoever the speaker of the house is. today in this country, i was thinking of o'neal yesterday. and chris, i could imagine someone walking in to the speaker's office today, speaker thomas p. o'neal, going in to see him and saying, mr. speaker, tom they would call him because they would know him and get in there. tom, i have to tell you, that the childcare funding, the pandemic relief money has expired. there are people in 41 states in this country right now today who

can't afford childcare for two children. and the cost of childcare for two children in nar states, 41 out of our 50 states the cost of that childcare exceeds the average annual monthly mortgage payment. they can't find the childcare if they have the money. tom, what can we do about it? you tell us what o'neal's instincts would be to hear a story like that? >> well, you know, i thought that was the real difference between the biography of ronald reagan and o'neal. if you're in hollywood, you're fighting with actors and directors trying to hold on to your career. north cambridge, the irish/italian part, cambridge, not the harvard part the regular part, you're dealing with people everyday with problems like that. i remember tip the gold diggers and right wingers were saying why do you care about these social programs. he would say, i care about the

dwarf program. he would say the dwarves with a massachusetts accent. we can get these guys to gro from 3'6" to 4'2". that's a big difference. we have to look out for the dwarves. women's breast care, diseases and he knew all about them. he would always be rooting for these people. because everybody knew about tippa o'neal. he cares about the little guy. the person at the bottom. who is mccarthy? what does he care about? saving his job. matt gaetz said i'll hold you up for your job. if it takes one vote, i'll get rid of him. tip you had to take him on his values. that was his strength. okay, you're old school but he cares about regular people. i'm telling you, you have to have something in your heart that the average politician would say i'm not messing with him on that because i know he cares about it.

>> s -- >> well put. >> let's understand, david jolly, we're talking about 4% of the republican caucus, 96% enraged what happened yesterday. it's not one member. there are five, ten, 5 members if the time is right they'll make the gesture, they'll blow everything up and raise money off of it because they're about gestures instead of acting. mike asked that question about tip o'neal, what would he say? they don't care. you know these people. i know these people. they literally don't care about policy. up to this stage -- there are policies that donald trump actually cares about.

he actually does. it's not just for show. these people are nihilists. they don't care about policy. they care about hits on tiktok and raising money and owning the libs. they want to own republicans who have a 96 acu rating as well. they don't give a damn about policy. >> that's right. in today's republican politics it's what you oppose than what you can enact. the power and fuel of conservative media, look what matt gaetz did? that's a re-election platform for matt gaetz. i think we have to be careful about strong speakers would not

have let it get to this point or the republicans who went along with this. the silent majority of republicans who said, okay, we'll hand over the keys to these people. they are all complicit. what will come next? speaker that launches impeachment of joe biden. kevin did that. someone supports 30% cut with domestic spending? kevin did that. kevin is just as bad as whoever comes next. the difference is he is carrying donald trump with a smile instead of a scowl. he has been given this pass that he's this refreshing, gentler,

kind ler, conservative republican. he is not. the reason he lost his seat is because he broke too many promises to republicans burned too many bridges with democrats. how do they pull all that back together and how do they do it in a time frame that says you have to keep the government open in 45 days? because i do think in a typical government you can see jordan or scalise move in quickly. however, you have to wrap in a 45 cr deal, terms to that deal with the speakership. republicans have a lot to work through. >> yeah. >> congressman, you're so right. people are saying what's next? acting like this couldn't have been avoided. i don't mean to make this more simple than it is, but i got to say, i got up to congress at 31 and everybody said, oh, it must

be difficult. i looked around the chamber, i said, no. this is actually the easiest job in the world. everybody in here wants something. you have to figure what that perp, when they talk to you, what they want. you know what you need for your district. you know what you need for your people. you know what you need for ideological agenda and you do that. it's mind blowing to me, congressman, mind blowing it was like a scene out of austin powers, screaming no. this has been coming at him for months. he wasn't smart enough to do any of the things that claire mccaskill said he should have been done. this could have been averted. he didn't have the skills to do it, i guess. >> joe, you're spot on. here is the important thing about kevin mccar dhi.

probably more so than any other speaker, maybe nancy pelosi. he actually knows every district, every republican member what they need and what makes them tick. his rise to power has been built around that in a very granular way. for those who know the house and mccarthy and the dynamic, what we saw happen in january is he started making promises that there was no way he could keep. so that created this inevitability that yesterday was going to occur. it goes back to the rise of trumpism. rather than filing on, i like to think in the context of opportunity lost. real opportunity lost, someone who wanted to be that happy warrior conservative, chose to make a turn when trump came on the scene and he became somebody else. and that was his opportunity lost to achieve anything he thought that some day he might as a republican. >> brendan buck, chime in. what happens next? >> yeah. i do think steve scalise is definitely the front-runner to come in.

but, these people aren't going to make it easy for him. some members said they won't vote for any member who isn't pledging to support joe biden. david makes an important point. kevin mccarthy had some breathing room. he had six months to put messaging bills on the floor and build up political capital. whoever is next is going right into the meat grinder. government shutdown deadline coming up. we have to do some more compromises again which is what did kevin mccarthy in here at the end. being able to set some terms around what happens there is going to be fundamental for the next person to be able to survive. there's no way they change the rule that allows just one person to bring a motion to vacate. matt gaetz and his friends are never going to give up that power. there's a lot of talk about how can we change the system so this won't happen again, not going to happen. what the next speaker of the house needs to do beyond making the promises they can't keep, they need to wrap their head around what's about to come

soon. there needs to be a big scale government funding bill that is going to need to be signed by joe biden. if that's a firing offense, you shouldn't take the job. it's almost like it's a red flag if you're willing to take this job. but somebody, of course, has to be willing to do it. >> wow. couldn't get better insight than from this group. former aide to house speakers ryan and boehner, brendan buck. former republican congressman david jolly and chris matthews from the inside of a capitol cog, decades of hardball, thank you for much all of you for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," while kevin mccarthy made history as the first house speaker to be removed through a no confidence vote, donald trump became the first former president to be placed under a gag order. >> think it will work? >> we'll explain what trump said on social media that landed him in the hot seat -- in hot water with the judge presiding over his civil fraud trial. and what to expect when he

returns to court in lower manhattan today. he's expected back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. nine months on the job, speaker kevin mccarthy has been removed from the job. aaron rodgers is like, damn, that was fast. any way, now that mccarthy's run as speaker is over, i thought it would be fun to take a look back at his greatest moments as speaker of the house. ♪♪ when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing,

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♪♪ beautiful live picture from the top of our building at rockefeller center, looking south into lower manhattan. just after 7:30 in the morning. donald trump now is under a gag order in his civil fraud trial. the judge put it in place after yet another inflammatory social media post from the former president. nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has more. >> reporter: in a manhattan courtroom, donald trump's financial statements back on trial this morning. but it's mr. trump's increasingly inflammatory comments and social media posts outside of court that's landing him in hot water with the judge who will decide the penalty for his name sake company found liable of engaging in brazen financial fraud. >> this trial is a rigged trial. it's a fraudulent trial. frankly, saw the news put out about humor and the principle clerk, that is conspiracy. >> what was put out by mr. trump

himself a photo since taken down of the judge's law clerk posing with democratic senate majority leader chuck schumer. the unmistakable suggestion that mr. trump can't get a fair shake at trial as he continues to rail against the case as politically motivated causing judge engoron to hand down a limited gag order. mr. trump now banned from talking about court staff. but continuing to attack new york's attorney general, latitia james. >> any skment on the gag order. >> her office walking the jung through hours of mr. trump's finances in painstaking detail as it tries to prove the trump organization and its executives intentionally falsified their business records in hopes of securing favorable loan terms and insurance rates while mr. trump's legal team argues the state cannot prove any intent to defraud. yet on the witness stand, mr. trump's long-time accountant admitted that the trump organization didn't provide his firm with all the necessary records to accurately complete the financial statements so

central to the case. >> that is the defendants and the defendants alone who provided the numbers, the data and the false valuations. >> reporter: also central to the case, the republican presidential front-runner opting to step off the campaign trail back in court today saying he, too, will take the stand. >> mr. trump, will you be testifying? >> yes, i will at the appropriate time i will be. >> nbc's laura jarrett reporting there. joining us now, reporter at propublica, andrea bernstein covers trump's legal issues for npr. good to have you with us this morning. let's start with the gag order and your experience covering these matters. how rare is it? and how strictly do you expect this will be enforced as most of us expect donald trump to violate it? >> rare and i think it will be enforced because this judge means business. he has already cited and fined mr. trump for contempt. so i think he means to do it. and this is -- his clerk has been very involved with this

case. i have seen him on numerous occasions sort of reading documents, conferring with the judge. this goes to the heart of the jung's role. it is almost like attacking the judge. >> yeah, clearly upset by it and summoned them in at lunch, delete that post. knock it off. you covered trump's business dealings for many a year. this case really cuts to the heart of who he is or at least who he represents himself to be. give us a sense as to how -- what you heard so far in the trial and what your expectations are going forward and is there any chance that donald trump will actually take the stand? w. oh, i think so because the attorney general can call him. now, he doesn't have to testify, he'll take the fifth. but because it's a civil case that can be used against him. he can also testify in his own defense if he chooses to. but that could open up potentially him to be asked about anything, mar-a-lago, january 6th, does he have other patterns of fraudulent behavior to raise the previous criminal

trial of his company, upcoming cases. so it's a real risk for him. i think what we see is this parallel universe. donald trump running by cameras shouting things, having designed chaos. then in the courtroom, excruciating detail, spreadsheet, what was this number, where did it come from? what the attorney general is trying to establish this pattern of an organized conspiracy at the trump organization to fudge their numbers. on monday, when they gave the opening statements, they were showing how when trump was caught lying about the size of his complex, they scrambled to pump up other numbers, 40 wall street and one of the golf courses to make the numbers all add up. that is what this case is about. and of course it's what trump has been doing. and you know, all of us in media, you know, we try to fact check, show where trump is lying. but in a court, it's different. when you have a lie, it can have

$250 million consequence. >> andrea, people who view this from distance, this is a two-part trial, is it not? one part already been decided and what is being talked about and discussed right now is basically bank fraud and a couple of other things and basically, i think from my viewpoint, is donald trump saying, you know, and his lawyers saying, no, the banks had a disclaimer. just read it. >> right. and the judge already said in his ruling in which he found the trump defendants, donald, eric and don jr. plus the company, the judge found them to have lied repeatedly about their real estate values. what's up for issue now is did they have a conspiracy? did they lie to insurance companies? but in the previous ruling, the judge already said, well, it doesn't matter under new york law whether the banks suffer. you cannot repeatedly lie under

new york business law. trump is facing that. one of the interesting things on monday during the opening statements is his lawyers were sort of reaching, well, how do we defend this? one of the defenses is this is real estate. you can value however you want because you can always find a buyer. but that is exactly what donald trump and the other defendants are in trouble for is pulling values out of a hat. we could theoretically get this. you actually cannot do that under new york law. >> claire mccaskill, you can take it to the panel. i would also love your legal take on this and also how you think this might be impacting trump's businesses today because it just appears he's especially enraged at this specific trial of many. >> well, i think this latest episode just shows how shook trump is. this is cutting to the very core of his rational for existence. and that has always been about lying about how successful he is and lying about the value of his

businesses and his self worth is so tied up in this thing that this has really, i think more so than anything else, probably more so than some of the criminal indictments because he's living in la-la land. and i just got to get this in as a point of personal privilege. the notion -- i mean, i can't decide whether to laugh or cry. the notion that chuck schumer would be carrying off as someone -- if you knew chuck and iris like i know chuck and iris and their two daughters and their daughter's families, there is not a more close-knit family in america. iris is his north star, his best friend, his confidant and frankly she is smarter than he is. and this notion that somehow -- it is just beyond laughable. the fact that he would do that shows how scared he is to his very core that it's all coming

out in the wash and this judge is not going to play games. he's got an incredible reputation for being exacting and fair and thorough. and he's not going to put up with this. >> yeah. andrea, i would just add to claire's analysis, the question to you because i do think that hoax everything is about and people covering toug for people frustrated that there are trump followers who don't see what's right in front of them in terms of him being a liar, a cheat, a fraud, admitting to taking classified documents saying he had an affair with a porn star and paid her off and whatever else he already put out there, take dirt on a political rifle from a foreign leader. you could go down -- i could go the next four hours on things he has openly said that are beyond reproach and hopely done, admitted to doing that are beyond reproach. so i guess there's a certain

whatever that people get at him being exposed. but i think this might hurt his bottom line. >> oh, yes. >> and take away his -- and i'm wondering what the impact right now is on his businesses because i'm thinking anybody who is doing business in any way with the trump organization probably is thinking twice about having everything that they're doing with the trump organization possibly exposed in court. >> well, i think that is true. and that is something that i certainly heard from businesses say right after january 6th. but i think what we have seen since trump was president is people who don't care, like saudi arabia, sort of starting to do business with mr. trump. and that's what walks into this situation. but one of the things that is so striking to me is i can't believe how much time he spent in court, but that really is a signal of how meaningful this is to him and to his image.

one of his lawyers said he's new york's most successful real estate developer. not true. but that is what is at issue here and what he's trying to hang on to. >> i think he's there for a lot of reasons. there are a lot of different things he does not want coming out in court. that just might come out in court. andrea bernstein, thank you so much for your reporting. for more of andrea's reporting, listen to her new three-part podcast entitled we don't talk about leonard. we appreciate your being on this morning. claire mccaskill, thank you as well. great day to have you on. coming up, former governor chris christie will be our guest. we'll get his take on the gag order imposed on donald trump and the republican chaos on capitol hill. also ahead, comedian, keegan-michael key will join the conversation for his new book, the history of sketch comedy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. home runs

doing it hisat-bats yesterday. lifting the minnesota twins to a 3-1 win over the blue jays in the opener best of three american league wild card series. the victory also finally halts the twin's record 18-game post season losing streak. that's now over. minnesota can wrap up in game two while toronto aims to losing its fourth consecutive playoff series. the winner goes to houston to

play the astros in the a.l. division series. in tampa, the texas rangers bounced back from a weekend chance that sent them on the road now. the team scattered six hits over seven innings taking advantage of sloppy defense by the rays to win their wild card opener, 4-0. tampa's sixth straight loss in the playoffs puts texas now one win away from an alds matchup against the baltimore orioles. in the national league, the arizona die nond backs making their first playoff appearance since 2017 slugged their way out of an early hole in milwaukee against the brewers. carol and marte had back-to-back home runs in the third inning. then the solo shot in the fourth put arizona up for good. d backs beat the brewers, 6-3. now they're one win away from an nlds matchup against the los angeles dodgers. and in philadelphia, philly's ace zack wheeler allowed only five runners on

base in a stellar outing against the miami marlins. wheeler struck out eight batters and gave up one run in nearly seven innings of work on the mound. the phillies beat the marlins 4-1, they move one step closer to a return to the world series. the winner of this series will advance to the nlds against the atlanta braves. so a lot in there, mike barnicle. but, man, this could end quickly. if you're the tampa bay rays, win 99 games in the regular season. you lose yesterday. if you lose today by about 6:00 this afternoon, your season is over despite the fact that you're playing at home. these quick three-game series all played at the homesite of the higher seed. a lot could be over today. >> yeah. i love the three-game series. i love the idea that you eight teams down to four teams you'll move on and play the braves and houston and things like that. the more i watched yesterday, the more i talked myself into a potentially great world series on the cusp of a great world

series phillies versus the orioles, jonathan. it would be fantastic. >> just right up the road from each other. the phillies in the world series last year, lost. they have a relentless offense. they have just enough pitching. the oorioles, great fun. joe, it was nice to see the minnesota twins finally get a win and snapping 18-straight post season losses, i believe. 16 at the hands of the yankees. it seems -- defies logic that a team could lose that many games. but they got that win yesterday. the crowd was nuts. and they could try to finish off the blue jays at home today. >> it's probably the first win they had since they beat the atlanta braves in they had since they beat the braves in 1991. >> no, 19 -- >> 2001? >> wait, '65 was the greatest of all-time or '67?

>> i was there in '67. >> yeah, i know. >> greatest of all-time. >> people ask how does a guy from the deep south become a red sox fan, and it was in 1975 because of jim rice, and how can you not fall in love with them then, and upstate new york, my parents kept telling me to go to bed, and the homer, an extra, and that '75 world series was great. willie, one of the things that makes the playoffs fun to watch and yet so maddening, you could have a team like the mets that had an extraordinary run, and just like that, they are out, and the rays could be out just like that. you look at the phillies, and here's a team that started slowly in the first half and

they come on in the second half. the thing about baseball, man, it's all-timing. when are the bats hot and the pitchers, when can they feel the placement, and it makes the wildcard series crazy. >> yeah, the best of three series, and you have one bad day, and if you are the rays, for example, getting shutout by the rangers, and you don't come into the trop on a wednesday -- >> what is your stadium, yeah, you don't go inhere without your chinstrap -- >> yeah, your hard hat and you have to have it all. we joke that we focus on the al east and we do, but the teams that fly nationally under the

radar, the twins had a good year and they showed it yesterday. the bruins another one, and the fans are duh despawnedant. >> let's show that about less than 20,000 fans show up, and what the rays have dong to do talk about "money ball." they have a great team and a bunch of exciting players, and they have one of the best coaches in the league, just a great, great, coach, and yet they play to empty seats all the time. it has to be demoralizing. >> everything you said is right,

joe. they have a great coach, and one of the greatest managers of all-time, and kevin cash is in the mold, and organization the premier organization, and they are rebuilding over and over and over again, and the idea that you don't have a sellout for a playoff game in tampa bay is really outrageous. 19,000 people. it was embarrassing to watch that game and see foul balls hit into the stands that are empty. >> all right, on that note -- >> well, 4,522 fans, and you could sit behind home plate, and biff hits a foul ball -- >> okay, coming up later on

"morning joe" -- >> do you know what i am talking about? >> no, i don't. i tune it out. congressman jim clyburn joins us -- >> jim will know. >> -- about the gop infighting, and first presidential candidate, chris christie is coming up next on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. are proffered by this qb. and proffered by his old backup qb. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too. have you been behind me this whole time? yep.

two minutes before the top of the hour. joining us now, republican presidential candidate, and former new jersey governor, chris christie. >> thank you for being with us. let me read from -- >> hold on, vic picaroma did not make my grid today, i can tell you that. >> how about jeff -- >> he's not normal. >> the conservative editorial page, and i will read a couple lines. this is headline, the republicans cut off their own heads. a band of eight republicans succeeded in ousting the house speaker on tuesday and we trust

they are happy, and they have the chaos they wanted. it's not clear what else they want to achieve. their clever plan seems to be to cut off their own heads. members can claim to be fighting, and the house is frozen and the gop is weaker and it's ability to gain policies have been undermine. how would the republican party with you as the president be different? >> what i saw yesterday was unfortunately incredibly predictable. when, you know, kevin made the decisions he made upon entry to the speakership, he weakened

himself by capitulating on a number of issues. this was predictable. as was most things in politics, joe, as you know, it was not policy, it was personal. matt gaetz doesn't like kevin mccarthy and was intent upon executing this type of -- this type of assassination, and that's what he did, it was a political assassination yesterday of kevin mccarthy. look, you know, part of this, too, is if you have a president that knows how to work with a legislative body and has done it before, and understands the personal nature of this, and is willing to spend the time and energy on developing relationships with those people on both sides of the aisle that you can develop relationships with, then we will have a different product at the end. but if you only play it to your side, you will end up with a situation like this where you

have a few folks with a narrow majority and they go off the reservation, and you have nobody else to call on to make sure you keep the institution on the rails. >> what do you do next, the next speaker, whoever that is, is still going to have to deal with the same group of hard core republicans? they are not going anywhere and it seems there's no way to appease them. what do you do? >> you have to look at all your different options. if i was somebody considering being speaker right now, i would be playing hard to get with these folks. there's not an obvious choice here. i think steve scalise, jim jordan, but there's no obvious choice here the same way kevin mccarthy was the obvious choice with his history though there were problems going in, and i

think i would play hard to get. and many moderate republicans are in seats where biden won the district, and they are thinking to themselves what kind of deal can we make to be counter weights to the eight that kicked out kevin mccarthy yesterday. >> let's say you go up to new mexic -- new hampshire, and you have independents and democrats and republicans, and they say it's your party, the republican party, and we have a problem up here with migrants and fentanyl and a problem up here with lack of daycare, but the republican party are not interested in governing but destroying things, why should i vote for you? >> you have to judge each republican on their own merits, and they look at my eight years

in new jersey, and i did govern. some people think i govern too much. you talk to folks that say i was involved in making sure things got done the right way, and you need a president now that will get involved in that level of personal relationships that can lead to policy wins. this is a personal business. we have not had a president that has been willing or able to do that since george w. bush in the first part of his first term 239/11, and since that time we have not had it. people get fascinated with oh, let me elect a businessman president, or somebody who has no experience in government. we have seen that with barack obama and donald trump and joe biden, and it doesn't work. that's what i would say to them. this is less about party but

it's about who you put at the top and if they know what the hell they are doing, and i want to tell you i know what the hell i am doing. >> well, i want to check you on joe biden, and you can say -- >> that's a low bar, joe. >> i agree with you when people say a business ceo, no, and i had a lot of democrats come up in new jersey and they said how much they love you, and i need you to tell me why joe biden, who has had more bipartisan wins than anybody else, despite his own party didn't want him to do it, and how is he not an effective executive? >> because he's not doing the things that executives need to

do to sell their programs to the public and garner that support. on ukraine, i think that the major failure on ukraine is that the president is not selling how important it is for us to do this. he is not out there making the case -- >> governor, governor, i don't mean to interrupt, but, my god, it's hard to go back to the beginning of this war and see how he navigated between alliances in europe and across the world and working with republicans and democrats here and there and not say he's done a remarkable job. >> we are talking about two things, joe. you see a dimunition of support. we need a president who has the ability to articulate why this is so important to america and he has not done that.

>> i want to clarify, you are not talking so much how he has navigated what the united states has done with ukraine, you're talking about the ability to sell it at home politically, that and his other programs? >> yes, because that's the only way these things are sustainable to the public, joe, and you know that. the only thing i would say about the management of the war is he has been too timid of providing all the weapons ukraine needed to win the war as quickly as they needed to do it. and shortening the war, the only way to shorten is to make sure they need everything they need to finish the job with russia. he's been slow on that draw. now, by the way --

>> well, we -- we are balancing, though, are we not? and from the beginning we are balancing those efforts and funding our ally in ukraine with a country that has state tv talking about launching nuclear weapons every night, and putin's number two guy talking about launching nuclear weapons as well. you have to admit, he couldn't just turn over f-16s to him the first week of the war. >> i disagree, joe. >> you disagree on that? >> i do. i don't think vladimir putin will understand everything but the exercise of significant power. >> right, you don't think -- you don't think, but you are willing to risk nuclear war based on your gut instinct? i am not being glib here. i think it's an extraordinary difficult course that any

president would be taking? >> it's not based on gut instinct but the examination of history of autocrats, and the only time he backs off is when he looks and makes an assessment of the situation and that assessment includes keeping his own rear end in power and safe, he will have to back off a little bit, otherwise he doesn't do that. >> would you send troops into ukraine? >> no. when i went to ukraine and met one-on-one with president zelenskyy, he made it clear he didn't want and would not accept american troops. >> would you be fine with ukraine continuing to attack russia? would you tell zelenskyy, if you have to tyke this war to moscow take it to moscow? >> no, joe. the russians are not putting any

restrictions on themselves, the murders of civilians, and the kidnapping of 20,000 children or more from ukraine, and vladimir putin is not showing limits on what he's willing to do to the countryside and to the people of ukraine, and so zelenskyy has to win the war. >> what does winning this war look like? >> winning this war is putin asking to come to the table. >> chris, i know you worked as an analyst in the trump white house for abc. >> i did. >> i am curious, your analysis, of what is happening in new york city with the civil trial, and the judge found trump liable of

massive fraud, and issuing a gag order because of trump's unhinged behavior on social media. do you see the former president from knowing him and working close with him, as freaked out, unhinged and angry about what is happening in the trial, and if so why? >> i don't think you can tell that, mika, by his social media posts because his social media posts are unhinged and nutty, and how you can tell is he is there and doesn't need to be there. he is not legally required to be there. >> what is that about? >> he's threatened. >> the way we know him, the way reverend al knows him, we all sense this is getting a way to him the way the criminal trials

have not gotten to him. you would suspect like we suspect, if he gets fined $250 million, he doesn't have that money to give. >> no, he will have to start selling things if he has to pay a significant penalty in the case. look, we have always known, for those of us that know donald trump, what he cares about the most is his money and what he believes that money makes people believe about him. that's why we have seen the allegations that you see in the trial about him lying and getting others to lie on his behalf to inflate what the value of the assets were, and that makes it easier to borrow money and pay less interest, and more of it is the ego gratification that he needs to get by being higher in the "forbes" list, and

strutting around and saying how rich he is when he really is not that rich. look, i think he feels threatened by this. one caveat i would give you when you mention the criminal trials, if you think he is crazed now and completely consumed by the civil trial, wait until he's in washington, d.c. in march sitting in a courtroom where he has to sit, where he has no choice, and it's a condition of his release on bail to have to be there every day, and listen to the testimony regarding the january 6th case that is going to be put forward against him, you ain't seen nothing yet. that's why i am saying to the republican voters, if you care about this, we can't nominate donald trump. i am running because i don't believe what the country wants is a choice just between donald trump and joe biden. you see that, you know, he's

even using the mechanisms he has at the rnc to tamp down debate. i was going to sit in on another network yesterday with vivek ramaswamy and have a conversation with bret baier in between, and the rnc told us if you go we will ban you from the debates from here on out. i don't understand how having conversations is bad for the voters and country. they are doing in part the bidding of donald trump to try and keep folks who are challenged to him down and lessen our exposure so they don't get people to vote for us. for those of you that care about me being on the stage, go to my website and donate a dollar. when trump shows up, the last

person -- you guys know this, the last guy he wants standing there is me. >> and the rnc wants to cancel all the rest of the bates. i want to ask you, you put the majority of your time and effort into the important state of new hampshire, and that poll shows trump at 49%, and nikki haley at 19%, and she's down 30 points, and desantis at 10, and you, governor christie, at 6 points. voters say they are resolute and they are not changing and they don't care about the felony charges, the cases, they are riding with him. how do you change that dynamic in a state that you said is the most important to your success? >> first of all, when you look at that poll, willie, and i

don't want to get too into granular detail, it's a poll that wouldn't count to qualify anybody for the debates because the sample is so small, and there is not going to be a democratic primary in new hampshire, so independents are going to be voting in large numbers in the republican primary, because there's no other game for them to play. you know from spending time in new hampshire, this is their super bowl, except they have it only once every four years, and now they have a ticket to the game and can only sit on one side of the stadium, and that doesn't mean they are going to come. they are going to come. the sample in the poll is just so different. every other poll that i have seen in the past six weeks of new hampshire is donald trump below 40. in those polls i am in 12 to

15%, and i think that's where the race is now. that doesn't count the independents and the number that will turn out in the primary in new hampshire. trump is going to be in bad shape as the trials continue to go, and people will see this guy will spend more time in a courtroom than he will spend in a rally or anyplace else trying to beat joe biden, and if republicans want to beat him, they need to choose somebody that can campaign not somebody who will be sitting in a courtroom as a condition of bail, where they are out on bail in four different jurisdictions. >> we is seen candidates move ten points in the last week. 2024 republican presidential candidate, chris christie, thank you so much. i want to show you this for a second, governor. >> yeah. >> this is vic -- >> it's biff.

>> yeah, we had more chicken feed on the field than grass, but they were all there. mike barnicle, you remember the graves, don't you? >> yeah, bob warner could hit. >> the thing i love about that picture the most, is check out that braves hat. i mean, that's -- when you have the multicolor styling there. biff pocoroba, if he's still alive, he's watching the playoffs and he's got that hat on. he's spitting into a dunkin' donuts cup, you know. >> okay. >> well, biff is resting in peace right now. >> oh, is he? >> now you depressed my whole

day, joe. >> ted turner actually managed for a couple games -- >> okay. okay. we're done with chris christie. bye, kris. >> oh, mika. how about a segment just on the 1970s braves. >> okay, off the screen. okay, we have much more ahead on the history made yesterday in a new york courtroom and the house of representatives in washington. we're back in a moment. ment you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs.

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i don't have a lot of advice for my house colleagues, other than this. follow your heart, but take your brain with you. the american people expect us to

govern and in order to govern you have to have leadership, and you have to stick with that leadership to give that leadership a chance. i would also advise all of my house colleagues to be sure and take their meds. >> that was fabulous on every level. but the good valuable advice, follow your heart but take your brain with you. hello? >> yeah. >> that was republican senator, john kennedy with that assessment of house republicans. you have a lot to unpack. >> i do, david, and yesterday i saw you talking about the caucus and how enraged they were at a small handful of people that

blew things up. i bet a lot of them were saying what the wall street editorial was saying, meanwhile, the house is frozen and the ability to gain policy victories are undermined, and republicans in swing districts, obviously in trouble, the crazy left and the crazy right are cheering, but nobody else is. david, how enraged are the republicans at these few holdouts that basically blew up their majority and actually turned the house over to the democrats for now? >> look, joe, i think what is clear is that a number of house republicans are extremely angry. what is unclear is if they at least try to do anything about it. we have to step back and understand this is not a

moderate versus a conservative republic, and most are as conservative as the next philosophically, and would like to govern that way. there's a difference between those that have to make choices in divided government, and those that want to have unrealistic expectations about what is possible. around washington, some of them who were extremely upset with the small group that upended everything said there has to be payback and consequences to this sort of behavior, so this never happens again, and the rules package has to be a normal rules package that gives them running room. one of the things we don't know regardless of who the next speaker is is regardless if they will have anymore room to lead

and govern than kevin mccarthy has had. i was covering the california legislature when he was a freshman assemblyman, and there are complaints how he tries to get from one day to the next when looking at how all the deals he makes will work together. what happened yesterday has been building in the party, particularly in the house of representatives, for more than a decade, where you have house members who have wanted more out of divided government than is humanly possible. whatever republicans want to think about democrats and their policies, they are not pushovers, just like republicans are not pushovers. when you are the senate majority leader or the house speaker, you care as much about your stuff as

republicans do about theirs, and pushed by the conservative media, and pushed by party leaders like donald trump. they have been told, no, just fight, just fight and hold out, and then the other side will capitulate and you will get everything you want and that's not the case. 40 days from now, or when they choose a speaker and 40 days after that when they fund the government and a whole host of priorities, will the new speaker be given the latitude to cut compromises that give republicans some things and democrats some things? we don't know that. >> i have warned a president or two and incoming members of white house staffs and senior positions, you need to understand the most important relationship you can have is with the minority leader of the

senate. if you are a republican and that minority leader is a democrat, or if you are a democrat and that minority leader is a republican, that's your most important relationship. start there and build out, because this is divided government, baby. nobody is going to -- there's a reason why we have survived for as long as we have. it's incremental. it's meant to frustrate. david, you are so right. the thing is, these people that are blowing things up there, they have nothing to lose. they are in safe districts where they will get 70, 75% of the vote, so they get to blow the house of representatives up, and they get to set unrealistic goals and then raise millions of dollars from $25 donations from across the country. >> not only that, joe, but they will go back home to their

districts and be applauded for this. it's not like they are in a district drawn to elect a republican, but they will get a slap on the back and say attaboy, keep doing it. we expect a fight, and it's the fight that matters. anything you achieve legislative is automatically suspect because it's impure, because if joe biden was willing to sign it and chuck schumer was willing to put it on the floor, there must be something wrong with it. coming up, the democrats' assistant leader will join, jim clyburn, when we come right back. e right back bring it to safelite. my customer was enjoying her new car, when her windshield cracked. [gasp] >> customer: my car! >> tech vo: she didn't take it to the dealer. she scheduled with safelite. we have the latest technology

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former president of the united states has been slapped with a gag order. the judge implemented a gag order on all parties with respect to posting or speaking about any member of his staff. that came after trump posted a baseless claim about the court clerk. on truth social he insinuated the clerk had a personal relationship with chuck schumer, and trump spoke about that to reporters on the lunch break, and the judge told him to take the post down. once the trial resumed the judge issued the gag order but not before the trump campaign send out a despairingly email about the judge himself. the judge said it could lead to

meaningful and swift sanctions. joining us now, bloomberg legal and politics reporter, eric larson. he was in the courtroom yesterday covering trump's fraud trial, and also with us, u.s. attorney, barbara mcquade. take us in the courtroom and how strictly this judge will enforce the gag order? >> yeah, it was a real twist, and the testimony from the accountant took a turn, and even from the behavior we have come to expect on social media attacking judges and prosecutors, and it took everybody by surprise he

attacked the clerk, and she was involved with the judge's efforts to get trump to some apply with subpoenas and efforts like that. trump's lawyers are familiar with the clerk. they have worked with her closely for a while now, and so for him to take this pointed attack on her, and i am not surprised, actually, the judge reacted in this way. the judge does not -- he's not afraid to sanction trump. you might recall he sanctioned trump for failing to respond appropriately to a subpoena in the attorney general's investigation before the suit was filed and it was a $110,000 fine before trump came into compliance. i am sure the judge will follow-through on the threat if trump does do this again. >> barbara, in your experience, what power does a judge have and

what power does the judge wield to enforce this kind of a gag order? donald trump has never been afraid to attack judges or witnesses or the clerk in this case inside the courtroom when the punishment phase of the trial is going on, so what will happen if he does it again? >> judges have a great deal of discretion and power in managing cases before them, and that includes ordering defendants not to speak about the case publicly. i found this to be a very refreshing and swift move by this judge after so many other judges in the other cases pending against donald trump has been reluctant to impose gag orders. and the judge has the ability to impose whatever sanction, and i doubt he would be jailed after the first infraction, but perhaps a warning is the first step, and then maybe a fine is

the next step. at some point the ultimate penalty the judge can impose is to jail donald trump for contempt of court if he refuses to comply with the order. >> i am curious, because trump does, in terms of his behavior seems more personally angry than usual, and not feigned anger to whip up the base. does this seem focussed on his social media post, or can the words that he uses ultimately cause sanctions and consequences as well. he was going after the judge before this loudly to reporters during these proceedings. i wonder about that. what do you think the constraints are on his business given this litigation, this trial that is going on? >> with regard to the gag order the judge was narrow focusing on

the court staff, and it goes beyond social media. it's a little shot across the bow. it's very narrow now, and if trump issues something that goes beyond the bounds of this, and the judge made it clear he will not be reluctant to impose a gag order, even if that means it needs to be expanded. with regard to the second question with regard to the trump business enterprise, the judge already cancelled certificates in the trump organization, so things like the financial buildings in manhattan, the golf courses in new york, those are now sort of on hold with the idea of appointing a receiver for the purpose of liquidation. we have to get through this week's trial to determine what the penalties are, because the attorney general is seeking the disgorgement of profits of up to

$250,000. >> coming up, the historic action to remove house speaker, kevin mccarthy. the latest on the fight to replace him when "morning joe" comes right back. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people

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yesterday at the white house national security council official, john kirby, reiterated u.s. support for ukraine despite the recent drop in funding by congress in the latest spending bill. >> as ukrainians rage a tough counter officialens and as their children continue to get ripped from their families, it's imperative we help them take advantage of every single day. a lapse in support for even a

short period of time could make all the difference on the battlefield, just as critically such a lapse in support will make putin believe he can wait us out, and that he can continue the conflict until we and our allies and our partners fold. >> meanwhile, "the new york times" reports that russia's strategy to secure victory in rain is to outast western support. u.s. officials said ty e convinced putin tries to end support for ukraine by using his spy agencies to push propaganda supporting pro russian political parties and by soaking conspiracy theories with the new technologies, and our guest, a partner in the cyber security

firm. talk about, if you could, just how they can impact u.s. support for ukraine and also european support, and are they already doing that? >> absolutely. i have to say that i am actually a little taken back because my view was that they were going to mainly target the 2024 election, and they were going to try and get influence outcomes for this time next year, but they were able to move their schedule up a little bit with the current chaos going on in the house of representatives. there are three things happening, and one is the uptick across social media platforms to influence hearts and minds everywhere, and we are seeing twitter pulling back on the mechanisms put in place, including some of the trust and safety and integrity teams in the wake of the 2016 election, as well as some of the tools on

the platform, including self reporting of political activity, and this has been like a devil's playground on social media, continuing to create chaos. >> and then it could manipulate parts of the 2024 election process, and what is it about twitter that makes it so vulnerable? >> for one reason or the other, over the last several years, it seems some political officials started to view twitter as the real world. i think we all know it's not the real world but it's a synthetic environment, and there are trolls and bots and fake news, and just because you say something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. and twitter pulled back some of the capabilities, and they

removed the election integrity team and some of the self reporting tools, including the ability to pull up and report a political or election related political disinformation, and this allowed the fake news and the platforms the russians have built-up over the last couple of years to get in disinformation. at a time when everybody is looking for the latest breaking news, they jump on without verifying a post or something that has been put out there, and it just -- it spirals out of control, effectively. >> chris, there's no doubt that u.s. officials hearing from john kirby there, there's no funding for ukraine in the cr passed over the weekend, and mccarthy said he wanted to help but he is

gone and the white house isn't sure about who they are dealing with now. isn't the reason why twitter is the perfect venue for russian propaganda is because of who owns it? >> it was concerning over the weekend with some of the posts that elon musk posted, and we're at a moment where we are building up towards 2024. the 2024 global election cycle will be one of the most active in recent memory, and this is mexico and the u.s. and there are several european elections and taiwan. we focus on russia, but we have to know that china is incredibly active in this space, and meta a month or so ago released a report where they took down the largest information operation

where they are attracting these campaigns, and we have diminished transparency into how the platforms are acting against the policy and what their interactions are with government worldwide. as things get worse out there, we are losing visibility. coming up, the history of sketch comedy, keegan-michael key, joins us when "morning joe" comes right back.

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get more of what your pet loves with every day great prices and fast free shipping at chewy. he is tireless. he has that uniquely american grit. under kevin's speakership that lasted 15 rounds of him never giving up, this republican majority has exceeded all expectations. >> the incentive structure in this town is completely broken. we no longer value loyalty,

integrity, competence or collaboration. >> today, we will spend the people's time so that someone can audition for a television show or possibly the governorship of a state. this is unacceptable. and the time for these antics are over. >> look at that. look, give me money, i filed a motion to vacate. using official actions, official actions to raise money. it's disgusting! >> pursuant to clause 12a of rule 1, the chair declares the house in recess subject to the call of the chair. >> a look at a party in disarray. several house republicans tried to save kevin mccarthy's speakership, but ultimately, eight members of the gop decided his fate. joining us now, assistant democratic leader congressman jim clyburn of south carolina. he is national co-chair for

president biden's 2024 campaign. it's good to have you back on the show. a lot of questions for you this morning. i will start, sir, with why no democrats made the decision to save him. do you feel that democrats had a choice here? or had kevin mccarthy basically made it impossible to save him? >> first of all, thank you very much for having me. he made it virtually impossible. last saturday, he put his bill on the floor to keep the government open. he addressed the issues of disasters. did not address ukraine, which democrats wanted. did not address other issues like voting and immigration. but we voted for it. all but one. he got 209 democratic votes. two of our people were absent. one voted no. he only got 126 republicans. the next morning, he goes on tv

and blames democrats for everything that went wrong the day before and blamed us for wanting to shut down the government. made it impossible for democrats to find some area of commonality. he just did not want us to vote for it at all. so he was obliged, with the vote yesterday, much to my chagrin. >> now we have retribution taking place in real time, hearing word that nancy pelosi, steny hoyer kicked out of their offices, things like that. what do you make of it? >> it's a bit -- let me say, 's untoward. i don't think we should b doing stuff like that. what steny and nancy are doing with their offices, i did not occupy one. i stayed in my congressional

office in anticipation that something like this could come to pass. it's untoward to say the least. we show more honor for longtime service, senior service than they seem to be demonstrating. i'm sorry to see that. >> i'm curious what you think will happen next. one of the questions in my mind was, could somebody worse become speaker? is kevin mccarthy rock bottom in terms of being able to do deals, to get work done, and to operate under the same fact pattern that everybody else is operating under? i think there were a lot of questions about him as it pertains to trump, january 6th and other issues. but who else now? >> well, there are a lot of people on their side. there are one or two people on our side. most especially, speaker hakeem

jeffries. the country got a good chance last saturday when he filibustered on the floor. such a great speech. they watched the vote yesterday, how we sat in unison and unanimity listening to the war taking place on the other side. so there are people on both sides that could do this. i think that their leader -- i know he is having some health problems, but steve scalise is a great guy. i think that cole would be the tone we would like to see. i'm going to let them handle their business. we will handle ours. hopefully, they will do splg -- something that will make the american people pleased. >> so many of your fellow

democrats yesterday said one of the reasons they couldn't vote to save kevin mccarthy is they simply didn't trust him. you just mentioned a few of the possible republican candidates to be the next speaker. can you trust them? do you think they can do the job if it's just going to be a land -- a handful of republicans holding them hostage? >> what happens when you give away the store to one or two people -- we had a workable rule on how to deal with secession to the speakership if the chair were to be vacated. they decided not to do that. decided to give that power to one person. i've been telling people for all of my life, really, that if that's efficiency you are looking for, then give it to one person. then efficiently, vacate the chair, because they allowed one person to rule.

if you want to be effective, you bring other people into the process. that lessens efficiency, but it enhances effectiveness. he could have effectively negotiated what was taking place yesterday if they had not opted to give one person rule. democracy is all about people finding common ground. you don't turn your operations over to a single person and think that's going to be democratic. that is autocratic. that's what got them to where they were yesterday, allowing one person to call the shots, which is a very efficient operation, but not very effective. >> congressman clyburn, when you look across the aisle, and when americans look across the aisle when it's on television, you see chaos and anger among the republican party. with that mixture, what can you tell us about the prospects for anything getting done that will

help the american public over the next few months? >> a lot depends upon what the tone is when we get back next week. we're coming back wednesday of next week. hopefully, by that time, cooler heads will prevail. i have given you a name like congressman cole from oklahoma. a very calm, reassuring person who i think could bring the kind of tone that we need on the house floor. hakeem jeffries demonstrated that he can do that as well. i have worked with steve scalise for several years. i think he could as well. i just think there are people in this congress that can have a calming affect on our body, and we can translate that to the american people. >> assistant democratic leader jim clyburn of south carolina, it is always good to see you, sir. thank you very much for being on the show this morning.

>> thank you very much for having me. >> good to have you. willie, we are one minute past the top of the fourth hour of "morning joe." >> we have a great panel to explain exactly what we witnessed. joining us is jake sherman, carlos cabrera and molly fast. her latest piece is "kevin mccarthy's craven speakership is over." good morning to you all. jake, i want to start with you. you are the perfect person to help us understand the dynamics at play here. walk us through, if you would, how we got to this point and now what happens from here in the house. >> pretty simple, willie. kevin mccarthy during his january run for speaker was forced by the right to lower the threshold for the motion to vacate. it used to be -- it was in the

democratic control of congress that only the leader of a party could bring that motion. mccarthy was forced to have anyone bring it and lower the threshold to one. he wanted five or ten. i can't remember what number at this point. effectively, the right said, hopefully, we will never do it. we don't plan do it. they did it. this was only a matter of time. this was always going to happen over some issue. you could say what you want to say about matt gaetz. we wrote this last night. he didn't offer any salve for the institution or grand plan or anything like that. he took advantage of a narrow republican majority, some discontent with mccarthy and pushed him out. that's how we got leer. what's next? i have a hard time seeing at this moment, knowing all the players and having covered them for more than a decade, that any of these folks are going to get to 18. that's not to say they won't. that's to say at this point on

this wednesday morning, it's going to be a very, very high hurdle to get to 218 for steve scalise or anybody else who wants to seek the speakership. we are a week away. incumbents have a huge advantage. they have speed and operations and know where to go to get votes. i don't know who the next speaker will be. all of them will have a very difficult time getting there. >> which raises the question, jake, where that leaves us. will this rule remain in place, that one member can raise the motion to vacate the chair thereby wielding extraordinary power, as matt gaetz exhibited over the last couple of days, even though he is a group of 12, 15 members, to change the leadership in the house of representatives? do you think that rule stays in place for the next speaker, whoever that is? >> i don't. not if they have guts. listen, to change the house rules, you need 218 votes. this is a house rule, not a conference rule. this is a house rule that the

house has to abide by. whoever the next speaker is, whether they decide to take it to the right or cater to the right will have to make that decision. there are a lot of people, i can tell you, a lot of people, new york republicans, the majority makers of this house republican majority, who don't want it to stay. i think that there's going to be an incredible push from a lot of those folks to cut away at this one-person motion to vacate. listen, the right sees it as a way to hold their leadership accountable. i think a future speaker won't make that mistake, to be honest with you. >> former speaker now -- i have to get used to saying former speaker mccarthy alluded to the rule that cost him his job in his remarks yesterday. let's listen. >> you need 218. unfortunately, 4% of our conference can join all the democrats and dictate who can be the republican speaker in this house. i don't think that rule is good

for the institution. but apparently, i'm the only one. >> it's a rule he agreed to, carlos, to win the speakership on that 15th vote, as jake said. it cost him his job. you served with many of the members, in the house of representatives. what do you make about the state of the republican party right now inside the house? >> as jake said, this is no surprise. this is the result of there being only one armed faction in the house republican conference. this has been the case for a long time. this is something that john boehner put off this fight in 2015. number one, boehner didn't have the votes to become speaker. he was fortunate that democrats that year had attended a funeral and that lowered the threshold he needed. then, of course, boehner, when this motion was filed against him, he left. this is a long time coming. nothing is going to change as long as there's one armed

faction, one group that can intimidate the rest. it's long been time for the centrist members of the house, the many republicans who do want to govern, who do believe in collaboration, who believe in compromise, to take up arms themselves and let the other side know that they are not going to stand back and watch this anymore. if they don't, we're just going to keep seeing this over and over again. it doesn't matter who becomes speaker. it doesn't matter if they change this rule. you still need 218 to control the floor, to pass rules, for procedural votes. this group has sho they are willing to drive this institution into the ground, selfishly, aggressively. the only way to counterbalance that is for other members to stand up, make their own demands and show that they are also willing to use the tools of power. >> kevin mccarthy wanted to be speaker for years. he worked tirelessly toward it. he lasted in the job for months.

what do you think his legacy is? >> it could very well be losing the house. i think that was ultimately why he decided against that shutdown. i think after the impeachment fiasco, he started to sort of recalculate. it did seem to all of us that congress was heading towards a shutdown. i think there are 18 very vulnerable republicans who won in biden districts. those people, like mike lawler, that crew from long island and orange county, they are really worried. they look like extremists because they have had to vote on extremist legislation again and again and again. i think it's worth remembering that mccarthy got himself here. right? he lied to democrats. he said he would take a vote on impeachment. they didn't take a vote on impeachment. they didn't feel they could trust him. they wanted to keep him in the job. i think that's a really important data point. i also think, you can't put this on democrats.

this was something that republicans did to each other and themselves. >> molly, you know the thing is -- i will tell you, republicans are putting it on other republicans right now, especially because you have these members from the safest districts, they are the ones putting those 18 democrats -- or republicans in biden districts that molly was talking about -- putting them on the line politically. that's something i saw time and again where we would stake out conservative positions and people from swing districts going, what are you doing? you are killing me. are you going to make me take this vote. if you do, i'm goes to lose in my district at home and you are going to be in the minority, in your safe republican district. there's a lot of that going on, jake, right now. there is though -- mika asked jim clyburn about it. you are reporting on republicans

kicking nancy pelosi out of her office, same thing with steny hoyer. those are pretty important for some of the members to be able to operate on and off the floor. just talk about the animosity that led to that. i think it's important people unrsnd what you say. they may have a small majority, but they are in charge of the house. >> yeah. it's an important point. whether or not you blame democrats for taking mccarthy out -- i have no position on that specifically. they could have saved him, of course. they do control the institution. i don't think this is penetrating -- i want to say this based on my reporting. i'm not sure this is penetrating with democrats. i don't know a single candidate for speaker that would put funding for ukraine on the

floor. these kinds of issues -- i understand democrats had to do what they did. they consider this an internal party fight. even the things to keep -- like ukraine funding, which we staked as a country and government a lot of our credibility on, that's not going to come to the floor, period, the end. i don't know anyone who would. kicking people out of offices. three, just the -- as you know, joe, the small things that help this institution run, giving the minority a heads up on legislation. the things that the two parties do to make sure that the house of representatives works, those things are done for now. will they change? of course. everything comes in a circle in this place. as i have seen for the last decade or more. right now, republicans -- the 200 and whatever, ten republicans who voted for kevin mccarthy, believe that the democrats who called themselves institutionalists should have

saved mccarthy. mccarthy had said he would put a ukraine bill on the floor with strings. they blame them. the revenge republicans are going to exact for this is going to jar a lot of people. >> you said democrats had to do this. i'm not taking a position on this. i haven't been there every day to see how mccarthy worked with democrats. we all know about the promised that were broken. we know about the mar-a-lago visit. at the same time, if you are an institutionalist, you are sitting there going, do we want this place to go up in flams? do you want to trade mccarthy for jim jordan. mccarthy said something really interesting last night. he said that he had a promise from nancy pelosi that if he went ahead and accepted this rule where one vote could vacate

the chair, that she said what she said to boehner, don't worry, we're going to cover you. you are going to be okay. we won't let one member do that. do you have any reporting on that? >> i don't. >> did that conversation take place? >> i know what happened with boehner and ryan. i know that. i don't know it happened with pelosi. she's in san francisco for the funeral of feinstein. i think democrats believed they had to do this for their internal politics. that's where the majority of the caucus was yesterday. it was clear hakeem jeffries had to follow that position. all that was being said, i have had a couple of house democrats text me over the last -- call me over the last 24 hours saying, i hope we know what we did here. for all of mccarthy's faults -- he was a flawed person. we all are flawed in many ways. he had a good relationship with jeffries. he hated the way nancy pelosi

treated him when he was in the minority. that has been written about. we have written about it. jeffries and mccarthy got along. they were planning to go to india together before he decided to move ahead with the impeachment inquiry. they had a good relationship. absent the 10% chance that there is some sort of unity speaker, which i don't believe at this point to be a viable option, although it might become more viable as the days go on, i think that any speaker besides tom cole will be worse for democrats. i can tell you, i have reporting -- we will report this today -- the retribution is not over. remember, joe, there are -- if you are a minority member of congress and you are -- you want more money for your committee, you have to go to the majority. that's over. i wouldn't be surprised to see them kick democrats off of delegation trips overseas. the gloves are off right now.

i think -- democrats might win back the majority and screw republicans in the future. the next 13 months are going to be very, very, very, very bad for democrats because republicans have taken this position that they did something that was wrong here. >> it's a dead end. it really is a dead end. republicans may do it. democrats may do it back. the loser there, not republicans or democrats, who have this revenge exacted on them. it's the american people. it means the houseworks less effectively. i will say, one thing that democrats -- i don't know that -- maybe it's just the partisanship is so thick on both sides. maybe nobody can sit there and think through this. i'm not comparing vladimir putin to jim jordan or anybody else. i am saying though -- if your victory is putin kicked out, which he didn't go that far, who

follows vladimir putin? this idea in america and ukraine that what comes after putin is better than putin is insanity. it's the same thing here on a smaller level, obviously. we are all talking about people that are in the united states and at least get voted in in a democratic system. whether they want to keep that democratic system. the idea that what we get after kevin mccarthy is better because kevin mccarthy was a weasel in a lot of democrats' eyes politically, that's insanity. there's no guarantee of that. in fact, you look at the candidates, chances are good, mika, they are going to be worse. >> yeah. the levels of worse at this point, some democrats could argue, were just negligible. it's all so bad that they just don't have anything to do but -- >> when you go from kevin mccarthy to jim jordan -- >> kevin mccarthy put a smile on nasty things he does.

>> good luck with the ukraine funding. good luck with this other stuff. i'm saying, democrats got what they wanted. the house is in disarray. no need to get angry at me for saying this. i'm just telling you, this idea that it can't get worse is so naive. we have spent the last year and a half going after kevin mccarthy, the last two years going after kevin mccarthy. i feel about him in a lot of ways the way the democrats do. but do they want speaker jim jordan? they may get it. >> might get steve scalise. a spokesman for pelosi released this statement yesterday about missing the vote to attend dine dianne feinstein's memorial. >> she's saddened to not be

there for the vote. the speaker of the house is chosen by the majority party. in this congress, it's the responsibility of house republicans to choose a nominee and elect the speaker on the floor at this time. there's no justification for it a departure from this tradition. >> carlos, final thoughts? >> i think it's not reasonable to expect that house democratic leadership would have stepped in to save kevin mccarthy. but there is a problem solvers caucus in the house. this is a group that's supposed to put the institution ahead of partisan differences. i think a lot of these democrats on the problem solvers caucus need to be asked, why did you make this decision? why didn't you step in? why didn't you cut a deal with mccarthy on ukraine funding, maybe on other things? we can't expect hakeem jeffries to do this. these centrist members who say that they are committed to the institution, that they want to

put the country before politics, i mean, this was a big opportunity. i do think that's a fair question. republicans need to own this. they are dysfunctional. it is their fault. but could democrats have made a difference? could they have stepped in for the sake of the institution? i think that's a fair question. i think these members who are in this caucus, specifically, need to be asked that question. >> by the way, if you are just waking up on the west coast and you are thinking that i'm somehow blaming the democrats for the republicans' dysfunction, i'm with the "wall street journal" editorial page. the republicans cut their own heads off. kevin mccarthy, by not creating and not continuing to work the relationships both personally and politically and by not planning ahead -- he knew this train was coming. >> just not honest. >> he knew this train was come -- coming for a long, long time. he didn't prepare for it. you can't blame the democrats

for the republican dysfunction. there's a problem solvers caucus for a reason. make no mistake, things can get even worse in the house of representatives. >> former congressman carlos can a -- cabrera and james sherman, thanks for being on the show. day three of donald trump's civil fraud trial set to start soon in new york city with a new gag order in place following a rant on social media by the former president. he looks mad. we will discuss what's in store today and what might happen if trump breaks his court-imposed silence. ahead, keagan michael key with a new book he wrote with his wife titled "the history of sketch comedy." "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be right back

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trump complained it's unfair his trial doesn't have a jury. the reason it doesn't have a yr jury is because his lawyers never asked for one. it's true. trump can't have a jury of his peers. where will they get 12 bankrupt former reality show hosts. >> willie will be on tonight. he will list the accomplishments of the kevin mccarthy speakership. it's going to be fun. >> all 269 days. i was honored. he asked me to come, so i will be there tonight, maybe talking about donald trump. the second day of donald trump's

civil fraud case. a gag order was implemented on all parties with respect to posting or publically speaking about any member of his staff. it came after trump posted a baseless claim about the court clerk while sitting a few feet from her. on truth social and in an email to his supporters, he insinuated she had a personal relationship with chuck schumer. no evidence to support that, as you can imagine. joining us now, msnbc legal analyst, lisa ruben. she's outside of the courthouse. lisa, what do you make of this gag order and what we might see going forward today? >> let's start with the gag order. it is a gag order. i don't object to calling it that, because that's what it is. it's a narrow one. it only impacts trump's speech and that of the attorney general, too, insofar as they

are talking about judicial staff. it doesn't prohibit him, for example, from making some of the comments he has continued to make about the attorney general of new york, the judge, who is overseeing this trial, and any number of trial participants. more globally, i think for trump, this doesn't impact him so much. he can achieve through his physical presence at this trial that which he cannot through his social media posts, at least if he is trying to avoid a further limitation on his speech by chutkan. by sitting in the courtroom and glaring at the judge and at witnesses and at letitia james, he is trying to intimidate people. it's not working. i don't expect him to stop any time soon. >> what about the evidence? what about what's going on in the courtroom beyond the posts that donald trump has been making, beyond the gag orders? how is this proceeding in a

trial that the judge said could last into the week of christmas? where are we in all of this? >> we are moving fairly slowly. we are still on the first witness who is a former accountant, donald bender, who oversaw the trump engagement for close to ten years. yesterday, the attorney general's office methodically took mr. bender through almost 40 documents that established the length of the relationship. everything from the statements of financial condition that are at the heart of this case to the representations made in letters from both sides, including the engagement letters that the trump organization had with him and letters of representations, letters that the trump organization carved out what was their responsibility to determine and what was for them to determine. the attorney general's office did a good job of saying, their responsibilities were limited and discreet and at all times the responsibility for accurate financial reporting fell on the

trump organization and its employees. during the cross-examination that started yesterday, trump's lawyers were trying to chip away and saying donald bender was the only cpa involved and he should have known better. the trump folks should have relied on him. again, the contractual language is what it says. they knew what they were doing. they knew who they were dealing with. it took itself out of the duty of having to verify the accuracy of the financial information that was then sent to lenders and insurers. >> could you explain to the unanointed in terms of legal procedures, how this could go until nearly christmas when the bulk of the trial has been decided by a judge and now we're into basically an accounting part of the trial? how could it be that it could go until christmas? >> i don't think it will go until christmas.

there are six claims remaining. the judge decided for the attorney general on the first and most important claim that the trump organization and the individual defendants engaged in a pervasive, persistent, repeated fraud by submitting fraudulent statements of financial condition. there are six other claims. they all stem from whether or not trump and the individual defendants intention a little filed false financial statements, falsified business records, and committed insurance fraud. then on top of that, there are conspiracy counts for all three of those. we have six remaining counts. the attorney general wants and needs to prove these so that they can show they are entitled to the full menu of relief they are seeking. that's everything from a lifetime ban on donald trump and his two grown sons serving as officers and directors of any new york company to a five-year ban on their acquiring real estate here in new york or borrowing from any new york-registered financial institution. that's as important to the attorney general as the at least

$250 million in disgorgement she's seeking. >> lisa, you and many others have said he is there for pr reasons so he can own the narrative. he is there to leer at people. i have to tell you, he can do that anywhere. he does do that anywhere he goes. he gets all the coverage he wants wherever he goes, especially if he says something outrageous enough. i have to press you on that. my instinct is, he fears something imminent here. there's something threatening him that's causing him to put himself in that courthouse every day. why is he in there? what potentially could come out that might cause him problems immediately instead of long-term? >> mika, you are right to say he can accomplish his pr objectives anywhere. i think more than the pr objectives, he is here for intimidation reasons. he wants to look witnesses in the face. yesterday on cross-examination,

trump's lawyers drew out that donald bender had been to trump's wedding, had been to other people's events. he wants to stare them down as they tell the truth about their business relationship with him. as you note, this case goes to the heart of his self-image. it goes to the heart of his finances. he is scared. >> thank you. in another blow to his financial reputation, former president donald trump has been dropped off the forbes 400 list of wealthiest americans. forbes announced yesterday that trump is $300 million short of the list's cutoff. molly, your thoughts? >> this is probably the thing that upsets him the most. he is all about this image of himself as a billionaire. we know many rich people who ask not to be on it and who pretend

to have less money than they do because it's gaudy to be on it. i think for trump, this is like a blow to his heart. i think it's going to be -- there will be truths or tweets or whatever it is he does, and there will be a lot of rage. his whole thing is that he is rich. >> so interesting. molly fast, thank you so much. still ahead, we will look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. including a strict measure that could prevent teens in one country from ever legally buying cigarettes. we will explain that next on "morning joe." l explain that nen "morning joe." 'm a business owne. i own a lemonade and ice cream shop in florida, so i can feel and see that my lines have gotten deeper just from a year out in the sun. i'm still marie and i got botox® cosmetic. i did not want a dramatic change.

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campus police say they heard gunfire around 9:25 last night and found multiple victims shot. officials say four of those shot were students. none of their injuries are life-threatening. the investigation is ongoing and did not provide any information about the number of potential shooters. no suspects are in custody as of this morning. thousands of union workers at kaiser permanente walked out of work after negotiations for a new coract broke down. over 75,000 workers at the largest non-profit private health care provider in the u.s. are striking over issues of pay, benefits and staffing. kaiser serves about 13 million patients operating 39 hospitals and 600 medical offices across the country. the prime minister of britain wants to phase out cigarettes in the united kingdom

by raising the legal age to buy tobacco to one year every year. if passed into law, the ban would become one of the world's strictest anti-smoking rules. it is similar to a law in new zealand and another considered in denmark. the prime minister said the legislation would see that quote, a 14-year-old today will never legally be sold a cigarette. coming up, keagan michael key and his wife will join us for their new book "the history of sketch comedy." you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back. dy." you are watching "morning joe. we will be right back.

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challenges like climate change. >> if you haven't noticed, california is bone dry. it looks like a trailer for the new mad max movie. you think bradley cooper came here because he wants to talk to chuck todd? he needed a glass of water. >> i think bradley did talk to chuck that night, for the record. that was keagan michael key as then president obama's anger translator at the white house correspondents dinner in 2015. it was a character he created for the sketch comedy show with jordan peele. it's the focus of a new book. the authors join us. good morning to you both. it's great to have you. i love this book. fans of monte python, snl, go

down the line, will eat this book up. keagan, tell me about why you wanted to sit down and talk about your favorites, the ones that inspired you to get into comedy. >> it was an idea that started with el. she said you use me as your muse. she wanted to write a book that was about loving comedy, loving sketch comedy in particular, and that was something that i knew something about. >> it's infectious. it brought us together. we geeked out on the science of comedy and the math how you create a sketch. what are the ingredients that go in to make something really, really lasting and make a good impression and really give people joy? we spent years -- a lot of our

relationship has been how to work together and we write together and break down something and why things work. you know what? i'm enjoying this. when we talk to other people, they enjoy it. maybe it would be good to share with as many people as we can. >> elle, what were some of the sketch shows or actors that turned you on to comedy? so many of us grew up on snl, monte python. keagan, my 14-year-old son, if he is looking at his phone and laughing, it's a good bet he is watching you do the east/west bowl player introductions. he watches it over and over again. tell me about what inspired you to comedy. what performers, shows? >> i don't think when we were kidding we knew that it was called sketch. we knew they were bold and brave. carol burnett had great sketches. there were sketches -- the

muppets. but if you remember, they had pigs in space. those are sketches. characters and heightening. you didn't know that the mup put puts -- muppets was a sketch show. you go, this is fun. carol burnett and cher, they were brave and bold. >> this is for both of you. a month ago a friend of mine in los angeles sent me an -- the first time that carl reiner and mel brooks did the 2,000-year-old man. i am here to tell you that if we showed it this morning, you would howl with laughter as if it were done yesterday. the things that far back, steve allen, those things, do they impact you? >> the math is the same. we watched a clip of george

burns and gracie allen over here this morning. we were chuckling in the car. do the short one. >> george burns says, do you like to love? >> no. >> do you like to kiss? >> no. >> then what do you like? >> lamb chops. >> lamb chops? could you eat two big lamb chops alone? >> alone? no, not alone. but with potatoes i could. it's the same setup. that was from 1929. it was almost -- >> i remember 1929. >> that math stays the same. the term that's not expected but inevitable. why do these things work? look at the pattern. someone said there's four jokes. i think there are more than four. there are patterns and math that work. >> a bonus recreation of the famous skit here. tell us, we are seeing it play out here in real time. tell us your process.

how do you work together to create something like this? >> it's interesting. >> depends on the project. >> yeah. i think for the book, it is almost as if elle kind of peeled my head back. >> this is exciting. what's in there? that's awesome. i will take some of this. let's take some of that. let's put this together. he does such a great job with voices and characters. the podcast -- the book idea came first. i took a detour for the podcast. in the podcast, we don't use any footage. we don't use any clips in the audible series. >> do a quick one. >> keagan is -- a quick what? >> do a quick skit now. >> what do you want to do? >> you know -- you can just tell them that we have been working together a long time. that's what they are asking. >> yes, we have been working together for a very long time.

what's funny is it is almost like we share a brain. we can finish each other -- >> sentences. >> sandwiches. >> let's try again. we have been working to the for a long time. it's like we share a brain. we finish each other's. >> sentences. >> sandwiches. >> no. keagan, this is live. >> you said sandwiches. this is live. >> is that enough? >> you like that one? >> what inspires you now? you set a huge standard for young comedians about what it looks like. what stuff are you watching? what is the future of sketch comedy? watching? what do you see out there? what's the future of sketch comedy. >> >> there's a lot more diversity in sketch right now that you can find on the streamers, on netflix. there's a show that i find really, really inspiring called

"the black lady sketch show" that is on hbo, and you can find it on hbo and max now, and it's seeing sketch comedy from an african american woman's perspective, and that to me is something that we haven't seen yet, and so for her to be able -- her name is robin, the woman who created the show, for her to bring this new perspective is really, really great. i've also seen there's a sketch comedy show called astronomy club that, again, has african american performers and a couple of the performers are gay. so then you're getting that perspective as well. so -- and then alternitino is on comedy central and has a guatemalan star of the show. i'm seeing all this diversity that is really inspiring. >> and so many people have access to the internet to create

things at home, to create things that are inexpensive and can get out there. there's so much content out there, but the stuff that's really good does find its way, it does find its way to people. >> we've only scratched the surface of the new book titled "the history of sketch comedy: a journey through the art and craft of humor." it is on sale now. authors elle key, keegan michael key, it's great to see you. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back with more "morning joe."

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creeps of late night television are back. i knew there was a reason i didn't want to see it settled, true losers. from real donald trump. i have to say the way he worded that, it almost reads like a work promo. >> now that the strike is over, the talented low-rated creeps of late night television are back. >> it's like all of melania's birthday wishes came true at once. >> i knew there was a reason i didn't want to see it settled. >> the writer's strike is over and the true losers are back. >> bing bing bongbong. >> thanks for the plug. >> i guess this would be a good time to say, willie geist will be on jimmy fallon tonight. how fun willie. >> i guess i get to be one of the losers and creeps tonight in late night. it will be great. >> exactly. you're going to be awesome. all right, well, that does it for us this morning, of course stay tuned to msnbc all day, full coverage of day is it three of donald trump's civil trial in

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