warehouse somewhere. >> senator jeff merkley, we really appreciate you coming to us today. >> good to be here,hank you. >> that does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." follow the show on social media @mitchellreports. "chris jansing reports" starts right now. good day, i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. could one of the republican party's most prominent verbal bomb throwers end up calling the shots as the next speaker. jim jordan fresh off leading a scorched earth impeachment inquiry into the president says he wants the job. he may be one of a half dozen who could run. plus, the man matt gaetz could be a step closer to losing his own. some fellow republicans now want him gone. former speaker newt beginning

gingrich says he's destructive to the party. >> many are equally ticked off at democrats who could have, in many republicans' minds, should have saved mccarthy's job. we'll tell you what they're doing to settle the score. we start in washington where a chaotic new chapter in the history of the house of representatives has begun, and just when it seems things couldn't get any uglier, they have. republican supporters of kevin mccarthy furious over democrats' unwillingness to protect them and protect the speaker from conservatives are now exacting revenge. over the past 24 hours, two democratic leaders, nancy pelosi and steny hoyer have been told to vacate their offices inside the capitol. pelosi is blaming acting speaker patrick mchenry for the move, although it's not clear who made the final call. mchenry is just one of at least six lawmakers who are now testing the water indvan of

next week's vote for a new speaker. others include steve scalise, judiciary committee chair, jim jordan who confirmed just a few hours ago he will, in fact, run. i want to bring in nbc's ryan nobles on capitol hill, tara setmayer is former gop communications director and senior adviser for the lincoln project. peter baker is "new york times" chief white house correspondent and an msnbc political analyst. another big day, folks. ryan, give us the latest. who's actually confirmed they're running, and do we know who might have a leg up there? >> reporter: we know three names for sure, and all three of them were on the list you showed, kevin hern, steve scalise and of course jim jordan, they have all it publicly clear they are interested in runni speaker. there are a couple of names that are possies. one name we can cross off is garrett graves of louisiana who's tight with kevin mccarthy and has been a key part of the negotiations around the debt ceiling and the budget. he just told me a few minutes ago that he's not interested in

becoming the next leader. already we're seeing these different members start to make their pitch about why they believe they can get to 218 votes. listen to what kevin hern said earlier today. >> all of this is going on up here right now is one more further distraction to the american people. they want real results, and i believe i could deliver those if the people up here want to put me in that place. >> would you take the job with one person being able to pull the plug on you? >> absolutely. you know, i have never been one to shy away from the accountability of the leaders. i've had accountability as a leader my entire life. i don't think the rule is the problem. i think that we have to perform going forward. >> reporter: now, there is the problem that the speaker's office is currently vacant, and that is definitely something that these house members are going to have to deal with. but it really seems in many ways that they're going to have to just throw the entire playbook out and start from scratch. many members are concerned about

this idea that any one member can pull a motion to vacate at any period of time and that that cloud is hanging over the speaker's office at any particular time. many members calling for a full sail rewrite of the rules. the leaders, the whip, the majority leader, all the different conference chairs, these are things up for discussion. the long and short of this, chris, it could be some time before the house is stabilized in a way they can actually produce the number of laws. >> tara, it's one thing to get the number of votes you need to become the next speaker and given what happened last time, let's not assume this is going to go quickly or smoothly, but it's also another thing to be a person who might actually be able to win the speaker's gavel and govern. do you see anyone on that list you think could do both? >> this has to be the worst job in washington right now. no one really wants it who could actually get something done.

maybe tom cole, or emmer, they've been less chaos agents than some of the others. i think it's important, especially emmer who had the job of the nrcc chair prior to his position in leadership, i mean, scalise could possibly run things. he's been in leadership for a long time. he understands how things operate, but it'sthat. i think what watching here is a republican civil war that has been brewing for an awful long time, that is really going to expose where the republican party stands, because you are speaker of the house, it's not about viral moments, it's not about getting interviews, it's supposed to be running the speaker's house, which means you are the speaker of everyone. and unfortunately that has not been the priority for republicans. they may say these platitudes about conservative values and

debts and things like that, but they haven't behaved that way while they've been in power, and they're not operating in good faith with the other side. in order to get things passed, you have to be able to work at list right there has one on monstred that they have an ability to do that, and most o them are election deniers on top of that. in my opinion, that's disqualifying off the top. >> so peter, that's a pretty depressing analysis there from tara, but let's talk about the democrats and, frankly, the view of the white house. is there a candidate on that list that they could say, all right, that's somebody i could work with. >> they would not think somebody could work with, that's obviously jim jordan. jim jordan has been one of the most vocal opponents and critics of this white house leading the charge on the impeachment and other investigations, and obviously they do not look at jim jordan with a great deal of fondness in the white house or

the democratic side of the aisle. look, you know, i think the democrats are sitting back and more than half to let the republicans stew in their own mess basically, you know, the old political adage is when your opponent is shooting himself in the foot, you don't get in the middle of that. that's what's happening right now. they're happy to watch this. obviously, you know, they would tell you on the record that their concern for the country, that's part of it, but as a matter of politics, you know, they think that this shows that republicans are not up to governing and it will help them make the case in next year's election. right now the republicans haven't, you know, figured out the rebuttal to that. >> you can't blame americans who sit back and say, okay, we've got another shutdown threat, that's what, less than six weeks away now, and they've just all gone home. they're not even coming back until next week. what's going on right now on the hill? how many people are there, and what is likely to happen between now and then? >> you know, chris, i think it is so important for our viewers to understand that the speaker drama is just one part of what

is a real crisis here on capitol hill in -- and you pointed out very specifically, there is a budget deadline that is fast approaching, and there is basically no work being done on capitol hill, at least on the house side, until they can sort this drama out. yes, there is some action on the senate, senators are in their offices, they're working today. they are in session. they theoretically could begin the process of moving their appropriations bill through their chamber. but here on the house side, until they settle this issue with the speaker of the house, they really cannot do anything. they can have behind the scenes conversations. they can perhaps continue to negotiate, but none of it becomes official because there's a speaker in place. yes, perhaps maybe there are some constitutional questions that could be risen that patrick mchenry, the acting speaker can move things through the house. that could be subject to a legal challenge. it's just not probably the appropriate way to go. this is a real problem. the fact that there's no speaker

of the house is one thing. maybe the perhaps more immediate and bigger problem is they are running out of time to come up with a long-term budget deal. and we saw how difficult it is just to pass a quick continuing resolution to keep the negotiations open, when you're dealing with all of these things right now, the idea that they're going to be able to do that seems fanciful. this is a real problem right now, and there really isn't an exit ramp in site. >> let me play you what one of the republicans who voted to oust mccarthy said on fox news this morning. >> the point is is that we're $33 trillion in debt. this speaker was woefully, woefully lacking in leadership skills. he always places the blame somewhere else. america's going to be better off with new leadership, and that's the bottom line. >> and who is it? >> possibly could be steve scalise. it could be elise stefanik, it could be roger williams out of texas, it could be mark green out of tennessee. >> so they all supported kevin mccarthy, including the most conservative guy, jim jordan.

why are you smarter than jim jordan and the 210 plus republicans? why are you smarter? >> i represent my district, brother. >> what does that tell you, tara, about where we are right now and what the prospects are moving forward? how to you see this playing out over the next week or two? >> yeah, i mean, it shows you they have no plan. i don't know that they thought they would ever be successful in this. again, it's the dog caught the car politically and now what. i'm hearing that there's so much emotion, raw emotion going on in the congress on the republican side that that's why they had to take this break. it almost got physical last night because people were so upset with the gang of eight there that took out kevin mccarthy. so the prospects for getting something done to ryan's point earlier, it's difficult. we're on a time scale here. we can't live through the soap

opera, the drama with the republicans figuring out what they want to do here. so i think that we're going to see -- we thought it would happen in january was drama. wait until what happens now in the next week or so as republicans try to figure out who's going to do what and become the speaker. i'm not very confident that they're going to be able to solve this in a by that shows that they're grown-ups and deserve to govern. >> peter, there's no doubt emotions are and were running high on the house side, but look, the senate, they're just having to wait, right? there's nothing they can do in the meantime. john kennedy was asked what he would say to house republicans as they head down this road, and here's what he told us. >> i don't have a lot of advice for my house colleagues other than this, follow your heart, but take your brain with you. the american people expect us to

govern, and in order to govern, you have to have leadership, and you've got to stick with that leadership to give that leadership a chance. i'd also advise all my house colleagues to be sure and take their meds. >> take your meds. take your brain, peter. republican to republican, he always delivers it in that very louisiana way. but look, i mean, one of the things that we heard is that speaker mccarthy said he stepped down because it was just going to be another vote and another, you know, it could be going on in perpetuity. they want him out, tries to get back in, want him out. what's to say whoever comes in now isn't going to be going through the same thing a couple of months later if and, you know, ryan touched on this, there's no change in the rules? >> yeah, it's a good question.

why would you want that job in the first place, right? because, in fact, the dynamics that kevin mccarthy faced are not going to be substantially different for whoever takes his place. now, you know, mccarthy had burned bridges with certain members on the right wing caucus there and it's possible that there's some who could bridge that divide for a little while, but there is a civil war going on in the republican caucus, and they have demonstrated because their majority in the house is so narrow that they can really only afford a handful of rebels. mccarthy's not wrong, only 4% of his caucus or his conference made this decision, but that's basically right, only eight members of a conference of over 220 members decided that he was no longer to be speaker. so why would you want that job unless you feel like you can bring that divide, and it leaves you, of course, you know, hostage in some regards to just a handful of members who cannot afford to lose even more than 4, and it's a thankless job going forward, i think.

>> ryan nobles, thank you. peter and terry, you're going to stay with us because coming up, florida republican matt gaetz, probably the least popular guy in congress right now, but he could still have a major role in selecting the next speaker of the house, or could he? we'll talk about that when we're back in just 60 seconds. st 60 s. [bones cracking] ♪ (tense music) ♪ one aleve works all day so i can keep working my magic. just one aleve. 12 hours of uninterrupted pain relief. aleve. who do you take it for? inez, let me ask you, you're using head and shoulders, right? only when i see flakes. then i switch back to my regular shampoo you should use it every wash, otherwise the flakes will come back. he's right, you know. is that tiny troy? the ingredients in head and shoulders keep the microbes that cause flakes at bay. microbes, really? they're always on your scalp...little rascals... but good news, there's no itchiness, dryness or flakes down here! i love tiny troy.

he's the best. make every wash count! little help, please. your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire the man who blew up republican leadership in the house is facing new questions today over his own future in the party. congressman matt gaetz grilled over his motivations after successfully leading the effort to remove mccarthy as house speaker. >> people have called you a narcissist. people say there is a huge benefit alone, is it to the benefit of you and donald trump? >> it's to the benefit of the country that we have a better speaker of the house than kevin mccarthy. kevin mccarthy couldn't keep his word. he made an agreement in january

regarding the way washington would work and he violated that agreement. >> is matt gaetz today a hero or a villain, a political pariah or a king maker? well, he now has a target on his back within his own party. new reporting shows he's not just a polarizing figure in congress, but in his own home district. joining us nous, tara setmayer, former gop communications director and senior adviser for the lincoln project, and mike ricci, who is a republican strategist and former director of communications for speaker paul ryan. welcome. so tara, the 96% of the republican caucus who voted to keep mccarthy as speaker are largely furious. i want to play some of that. >> the incentive structure in this town is completely broken. we no longer value loyalty, integrity, competence or collaboration. >> today we will spend the people's time so that someone can audition for a television show or possibly the governorship of a state. this is unacceptable, and the

time -- >> we want to go live to the president, he's speaking about speaker mccarthy. let's listen. >> we have a lot of work to do and the american people expect us to get it done. the argument we reached was about what comes next, but we had an agreement. we reached an agreement over the weekend, funds for government only another 40 days. we cannot and should not again be faced with an 11th hour decision, brinksmanship threatens to shut down the government, and we know what we have to do. and we have to get it done in a timely fashion. more than anything, we need to change the poisonous atmosphere in washington. you know, we have strong disagreements, but we need to stop seeing each other as enemies. we need to talk to one another, listen to one another, work with one another, and we can do that. i joined with minority leader

jeffries in saying that our republican colleagues remain committed to working in a bipartisan fashion. we were prepared to do it as well for the good of the american people. twice in the last six months both houses came together on a bipartisan basis. once to avoid default, once to keep the government open skpcht while we should never have been in the situation in the first place, i'm grateful that leaders on both sides came together, including former speaker mccarthy, to do the right thing. now, turning to student debt relief. when i ran for president, i vowed to fix our broken student loan program because while a college degree is still the ticket to a better life, that ticket has become excessively expensive. americans who are saddled with unsustainable debt in exchange for a college degree has become the norm. since my administration has taken significant action to provide student debt relief to as many borrowers as possible as quickly as possible. that starts with making sure the

existing system works and the way it was supposed to work for student borrowers. we fixed what was called the public service loan forgiveness program, which was designed originally to make sure school teachers, firefighters, social workers, and other public servants can get their student loans forgiven if they make ten years of payments and do ten years of public service. by the time i took office, that program had been placed -- in place for nearly 15 years, but because of red tape, only 7,000 borrowers had been helped. well, today, thanks to the reforms more than 700,000 borrowers had had their debts forgiven. just the other day, i spoke with tanya and chad, a married couple in their 50s who both work at public high school in milwaukee. for years they paid over $800 a month toward their student loans. it meant they couldn't pay, put away any money for retirement, and this summer, thanks to fixes we made to the debt relief

program for people in public service, chad and tonya's remaining balance was forgiven. tanya said, quote, the amount of relief this gives us is indescribable, end quote. now they can finally start savings for retirement. next, we fix what's called the income driven repayment program. here's how that works. if you have an undergraduate loan after 20 years of straight pain, whatever's left of your loan is forgiven after 20 years but because of administrative failures, some people who did pay their loans for 20 years or more did not get the debt relief they had earned. we fixed that and made sure borrowers got credit for every single payment they made. as a result of these changes today i'm announcing my administration has approved an additional $9 billion in relief for 125,000 borrowers in just the past few weeks under that program. with the latest debt

cancellation in total, my administration has canceled $127 billion in student debts for nearly 3.6 million americans. this kind of relief is life changing for individuals and their families, but it's good for our economy as a whole as well. by freeing millions of americans from the crushing burden of student debt, it means they can get their lives in order. they can think about buying a house. they can start a business. they can be starting a family. this matters. it matters in their daily lives. this latest progress builds on other steps we've taken. we made the largest increase in pell grants in over a decade helping students and families making less than $60,000 a year get to college. we made additional improvements in income driven repayment program. before i took office, student borrowers would pay no more than 10% of their discretionary income on a monthly basis if they wanted to do it that way. but under my administration's plan, which is called save plan,

we reduced that to 5% for undergraduate borrowers. it's now the most generous repayment program ever. under this plan, no one with an undergraduate loan today or in the future whether a community college or a four-year college will have to pay more than 5% of their discretionary income to repay these loans. income after you pay for psychology and food and other necessities. you can sign up for the save plan at studentaid.gov/save. studentaid.com/save -- studentaid.gov/save. and remember, if you keep up your payments after 20 years, whatever's left in those loans is forgiven. now, we're still not done. as you might remember, last year i announced a major proposal for student detd relief. we're on the verge of providing

40 million americans with real relief. the money was literally about to go out the door, but republican elected officials and special interests stepped up and sued us, and the supreme court sided with them snatching from the hands of millions of americans thousands of dollars of student debt relief, that was about to change their lives. as i said at the time, i believe the court's decision to strike down my student debt relief program was wrong. i promised i wouldn't give up. since then my administration has been pursuing a new approach under a different law, the higher education act. this act allows the secretary of education to compromise, waive, or release loans under certain circumstances. last week the department of education took a critical step in this process by identifying specific challenges that borrowers face in the current system so we can move forward with a new rule to address these changes. for example, there are many borrower who have made payments

for many years, but because of interest they still owe more than they originally borrowed. my administration is doing everything it can to deliver student debt relief to as many as we can as fast as we can. this is in contrast to house republicans who helped block the previous debt relief plan, nearly shut down the government over the extreme demands, which would have hurt hardworking families. but they had no problem with the paycheck protection program. remember that? the ppp program during the last several years, which was designed to help business owners who lost money, which is legitimate because of the pandemic. members of congress cut over hundreds of thousands of dollars in order because they lost -- their businesses lost money. it was a worthy program, let's be clear. some of the same elected republicans or members of congress were strongly opposed got hundreds of thousands of dollars of relief for themselves to keep their businesses open.

several members of congress got over a million dollars, and all those loans were forgiven. the hypocrisy of this i find stunning. i supported that program and i support the student debt program. my administration will continue to use every tool at our disposal to help ease the burden of student debt so more americans can be free to achieve their dreams. it's good for our committee. it's good for our country, and it's going to change their lives. thank you very much. >> speaker mccarthy, then speaker mccarthy said the two of you hadn't spoken directly in a long time. why is that, and are you committed to engaging more regularly with the next house speaker? >> we had two agreements. we shook hands on, and i assumed he was working with the -- i know he was working with the democrats in the house and senate. it wasn't for me to do anything.

if he wanted to talk to me, i was available. i'm available to whomever wants to talk to me, but the idea that i was going to somehow convince mccarthy to change his view was not reasonable. >> disarray on capitol hill after your conversation with allies yesterday, were you that you won't be able to deliver the aid that the u.s. has promised to ukraine? >> it does worry me. but i know there are a majority of members of the house and senate in both parties who have said that they support funding ukraine. with your -- i'm going to be announcing very shortly a major speech i'm going to make on this issue and why it's critically important for the united states and our allies that we keep our commitment. >> mr. president, are you also concerned about the rest of your domestic and foreign policy initiatives being in peril because of what we saw happen yesterday, the dysfunction in congress, the chaos that we saw on the house side? does that concern you in any

way? >> the dysfunction always concerns me. the programs that we had argued over, we passed bipartisanly. i'm not concerned that they're going to all of a sudden come in and try to undo them, although there will be some, there will be some i'm sure. there's half a dozen or more extreme maga republicans who would like to eliminate just about everything i've done. but i don't think that's going to get there. >> if i may, without additional funding how long will the united states be able to support ukraine? >> we can support ukraine in the next tranche that we need, and there is another means by which we may be able to find funding for that, but i'm not going to get into that now. >> president zelenskyy for ukraine -- >> say again. >> have you promised president

zelenskyy visit in the white house that you would provide the long range missiles for ukraine? >> i have spoken with zelenskyy and everything he's asked for we've worked out. >> mr. president -- >> tell us a little bit more about this speech you're going to give. what argument are you going to make? >> why don't you wait and listen to it. i'm going to make the argument that it's overwhelmingly in the interests of the united states of america that ukraine succeed, and it's overwhelmingly in our interests -- i've spent two and a half years putting together coalitions that no one thought could be put together, and they've strengthened us across the board, not just in relationship to ukraine, whether it's japan and south korea or whether it's what's happening in europe itself. and so i think that it's clear to the vast majority of the foreign policy community on both left and right, that this has been a valuable exercise for the united states of america to

increase the support we have around the world. and what i don't want to do is -- we put together 50 nations. 50 nations supporting ukraine, and we are the organizer, don't hold me to the exact numbers -- met with 16 or 17 yesterday in a long conversation and made the case that i knew that the majority of the american people still supported ukraine and the majority of the members of congress both democrat and republican support it, so i don't think we should let gamesmanship get in the way. >> what's your advice to the next house speaker? >> that's above my pay grade. >> thank you, sir. >> got to hand it to our colleague peter alexander who got at least three questions in there. it sounded like him at least on the last one as well where he

asked him about the speakership, and he said that was above his pay grade. but listen, this is a good example of why what is happening now on the hill is so consequential, those questions about what it means for aid to ukraine, the questions and the president's statements about what it might mean for funding the government. i want to bring back nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli, tara setmayer and mike ricci are still with us. yesterday, you guys that cover the white house for us sent us a note saying that the white house acknowledged, that you know, obviously everybody was watching. people were aware of what was going on, but the president himself was not going to make a comment yesterday. obviously something changed between then and now about weighing in on the decision to get rid of speaker mccarthy. what changed? >> well, chris, all week you've seen somewhat of a reserved

approach on the part of the president and white house officials as we are seeing this dpings on capitol hill. it's all part of a split screen strategy decide to showcase the executive branch. the president is working for the american people accomplishing things like today announcing more student loan relief. yesterday announcing enactment of prescription drug negotiations under the inflation reduction act and contrast that with the chaos on capitol hill. politically you understand that approach on the part of the white house and why they're looking towards the long-term in terms of next year's elections and wanting to highlight the contrast to democrats and republicans. the highlight speaks to the real concerns about the governing impact. in response to questions from peter alexander, you heard the president say he is worried about being able to deliver that aid for ukraine that he has promised, that he met with zelenskyy just here at the white house weeks ago and recommitted ourselves to. he spoke yesterday to world leaders, our nato allies who are very concerned about what

they're seeing here in the u.s. so i think there is the balancing act on the part of the white house, wanting to play the political advantage when they have it, but the president announcing in his remarks as well he is going to be delivering a major speech to the american people making the case why it's overwhelmingly in americas' interests to continue supporting ukraine. that's not a given. we have seen the ways in which that has been a flash point within the republican congress. the president reiterating he thinks the overwhelming majority of americans continue to support that. as we've seen, there's a different between what maybe the majority of american people support and what a majority of the majority, the republican majority in congress might support, and the president really does need to focus now on the governing impacts of this dysfunction and begin making the case so we do see an end to this and the funding continue, not just for ukraine, but for the government as a whole. >> that brings me to the other statement the president made. it is we have to change the poisonous atmosphere in

government. i think if you're asking what the american people want to happen, that's it, dead on. but how? because this was supposed to be, by the way, that was briefly the president talking about more student loan debt forgiveness, but all of that kind of stuff gets buried by what has been chaos and dysfunction on capitol hill. >> yeah, unfortunately there's a very perverse permission structure and incentive structure going on in politics today, and a lot of that goes back to the republican party giving donald trump carte blanche to do whatever he wants without consequence for the most part politically. so what do they expect when you have a george santos still sitting in congress, when you have someone as despicable as congressman gosar and things that he has done that kevin mccarthy and other republicans didn't reprimand him in congress. why would matt gaetz think there would be any type of consequence

for what he has done, you know, just with his own personal ambition. so i think the problem here is that we've become so accustomed to this reality show type of drama in congress that the american people start to tune it out, and they say, oh, well, that's just the way it is. we cannot allow this to be normalized. these institutions must function properly in order for our government and our democratic republic to function properly. i think until you get rid of that incentive structure, that's mostly on the republican side, you're going to continue to see bad behavior being rewarded with political power. look at marjorie taylor greene. she went from being an outcast to being someone who was cozied up to and right next to the former now speaker of the house. >> political power and money, mike ricci. there was another member of congress who yesterday on the floor of the house held up his phone and said, look, matt gaetz is already fund-raising off of this getting rid of the speaker. now we have a fight coming up.

thiss two and a half pages from steve scalise, we just got this, officiallynnouncing that he plans to run for speaker. you know, in the end, we showed you pictures six who looked to run, among them jim jordan. how much power will the gaetzs, the hard-liners have in all of this? how do you see this playing out? you know what it is to work for a speaker of the house who finds himself in the middle of contentious battles. >> yeah, chris, the thing is that usually these leadership battles, they happen over the course of months, if not years of building up and building your profile. here this is all happening over the course of a week. it's a lot of phone calls, a lot of chaos. you played a clip before, the republican member mentioning five or six names, some of which we haven't even heard yet.

it's all going to be a lot of back and forth and horse trading. there's a lot of frustration. i've heard all kinds of things said about him, and speaker mccarthy tried to leave some breadcrumbs about his ethics problems. the new speaker whoever it is will need matt gaetz's vote in some form or another or at least his support. it's a fine line between isolating someone like matt gaetz and antagoniing him, and it's a balance that speaker mccarthy and his team tried to spark. >> there are people who want to go beyond marginalizing him. they want him gone. but is that just the frustration and the anger talking or could there be a move? what do you think will happen? >> again, i think there will be a lot of pressure for that, but as cathartic as that would be, a lot of times that kind of initial immediate retribution can backfire. yes, matt gaetz generally acted alone, but he didn't vote alone, and obviously considers himself and his reporter to be close to president trump.

sometimes, chris, the retribution comes later. maybe it's a committee assignment. maybe it's office space, maybe it's a travel that he can't go on. we'll see what happens but i'd be hard pressed to see any immediate -- beyond the vending and the frustration, at this point i would not expect any kind of official action against him. >> mike ricci, mike memoli, and tara setmayer, thank you all so much. appreciate it. the former president back in court, why donald trump raised his hand in the middle of testimony to say something about the witness on the stand. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. rts" onlc struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven, full-spectrum relief

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through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. as of just minutes ago, donald trump is no longer watching over day three of the civil fraud trial that could bring his business empire to its knees. the former president's motorcade rolled out after he saw the morning session.

the court is now on lunch break. his ex-accountant donald bender is back on the stand facing fiery cross examination from trump's attorneys who are trying to show according to our team in the room that bender should have guided the former president better. trump is now under a gag order from the judge after he posted on social media and blasted an email out to his supporters, a photo of judge engoron's clerk with senate majority leader chuck schumer calling her, quote, schumer's girlfriend. i want to bring in msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin who has been inside the courtroom for us. also with me former assistant d.a. at the manhattan district attorney's office and msnbc legal analyst catherine christian. you just came out of the courthouse for us during lunch break, what has been going on, lisa? >> reporter: chris, today is all about accounting standards, and before your eyes glaze over, you had it exactly right in your introduction. today is all about team trump's

attempt to show that donald bender who was donald trump's lead accountant for many years should have been a person that the trump team was entitled to rely upon and should have and could have done his job better, and the fact that he didn't is how trump is insinuating that there was nothing wrong with his statements of financial condition that the attorney general has alleged were a part of the campaign of persistent, repeated fraud and illegality over almost a ten-year period. >> so catherine at one point today, trump telling bender he could not hear a word he was saying in the middle of testimony. what? what do you make of that? >> that's actually fine. that has happened a lot in court where one party says i'm sorry, i can't hear you. but i will say thank goodness lisa is there and other reporters are there because this case isn't televised and so we get to find out what happened in the court other than the

alternative facts mr. trump gives. as long as he did it respectfully, that's fine. lisa can tell us whether or not he did it respectfully. >> let me go back to lisa. what did you see? what did you hear? >> reporter: i find it interesting that the party, not the lawyer is the one complaining. usually defendants or plaintiffs in the courtroom aren't the ones to raise their hands and say things like i can't hear. but of course trump feels entitled and he's been given a lot of latitude by the court security officers to have impromptu press conferences in the hallways even on what are supposed to be bathroom breaks. similarly here, he sort of took up that space, raised his hand and said i can't hear a word he said. it wasn't disrespectful, instead of atypical. we don't usually see defendants and plaintiffs talking out of turn e especially when represented by skilled and

qualified counsel. for the benefit of our viewers, donald trump doesn't have what i think is a good case here, but he is being skillfully represented, particularly by his jesus suarez who's doing a cross examination of donald bender. if this was a jury trial, the erosion of donald bender's professional credibility that jesus suarez has accomplished would be effective. unfortunately for them however, they neither asked for a jury nor do they have one. and they're stuck with a very impatient arthur engoron who has told them to streamline their presentation and that they're not going to get away with the line by line examination of donald bender they're trying to do now. >> they also have an impatient client without a doubt, and now donald trump is under a partial gag order from the judge after, as we said, he posted a picture of one of his clerks. that is a no-no. what happens if trump breaks that? because the indication was that there would be serious consequences, but what does that mean? >> well, he probably won't break

it, but if he -- >> really, you don't think he? >> it's a very narrow gag order. it just says you cannot do this against my court staff, so -- which the judge didn't say you can't do this against witnesses or the other attorneys, which is the very broad gag order, limited gag order that the special counsel is asking on the january 6th case. so this was so over the line i just -- and lisa can tell you and i've been practicing in manhattan courts for years, and i've had, you know, defendants who behaved bizarrely. no one has ever seen this behavior where -- let me explain, a law clerk works for the judge. is usually behind the scenes. even if they're sitting next to the judge in this case, she's not the one making the decisions. so to have a litigant, you know, post this poor woman's face up to his millions of followers and, you know, link to her accounts and accuse her of, you know, being the girlfriend of senator schumer is just beyond

the pale so it's outrageous. if he were to violate it, the judge could hold him in contempt or sanction him financially, which i would say is not that big a deal, even though he's not as wealthy as he claims to be, he still has the money, but the judge can hold him in contempt if he does that. and if he then, you know, says something negative about a witness, then there will be another gag order about not being able to say anything intimidating against witnesses. >> the story continues, catherine christian, lisa rubin, thank you both so much. uncharted territory, the history being written on the hill and about to be. >> so let me say this to the next speaker of the house, whomever that may be, think carefully about what happened to your predecessors before trying to coddle the hard right. >> i'll discuss the lessons of the past and what's next with historian jon meacham. we'll be right back.

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after the truly unprecedented events of the past 24 hours, the first draft of history has been written in today's headlines, an historic fall, tragedy foretold. kevin mccarthy's dramatic ouster is an event that historians will be discussing for years, but we want to do it now with historian, professor and author, jon meacham. good to see you, jon. the heli in the "wall street journal" got my attention this morning.

it says republicans cut off their own heads and the editorial board writes about ai who voted to oust mccth without a plan, replacement or policy goal in mind. 4% of the republican conference trumped the 96% who supported the speak. it seems every week we talk about events that have no precedent. let's, if you can, not me, you, put these last 24 hours into historic context for us. >> at the risk of total self-parody, i want to take you back to 1999. i do think this story is in many ways the beginning of what's just happened. in 1989, john tower was nominated by george herbert walker bush to be the secretary of defense. that nomination failed in the senate. bush, late in the week, needed a secretary of defense pretty quickly, '89, cold war is ending

but it isn't over yet. dick cheney's name comes up, he moves over to become the secretary of defense, putting him on track to become the vice president and so forth. what happened then? newt gingrich got on that leadership ladder and became part of the team that then led to the 1994 landslide that gave republicans control of the house of representatives for the first time in a biblical 40 years. when president bush invited gingrich, then weber, a congressman from minnesota, over to the white house to have a beer and talk things over, weber told me this story, they could tell bush wanted to say something but couldn't quite get it out. and as they were leaving, weber turned to him and said, mr. president, what worries you about us. and george bush said, i worry

that your idealism may get in the way of what i think of as sound governance. your idealism may get in the way of what i think of as sound governance, and weber said he always appreciated the george bush calling it idealism, as opposed to nuttiness or ideology or pure partisanship. that's in many ways the beginning. the house of representatives for a long long time in the 20th century operated in a clubby way. that sounds negative. but it has some advantages, right? there was, in fact, cooperation, whoever the had the majority was at least somewhat polite to the minority. that began to change in many ways with the rise of speaker beginning rich. and this is all part of the record. he's the one who advised republican candidates to call your opponents sick. you know, don't just say you disagree with them. say they're sick.

and what this is is the fullest manifestation of pure partisanship over what president bush called sound governance. >> i've only got a minute here, but that brings me to what happened to speaker emeritus, nancy pelosi, she's in california for the funeral of dianne feinstein. republicans kick her out of her capitol office, and give steny hoyer his walking papers too. seems to be a level of pettiness, revenge politics. is that in a microcosm what the house has become? >> well, we're in a good place if we're worried about office space. that's okay. it's the violence we have to worry about. it's the echoes of january 6th. it's the sense that a potentially violent group of folks out in the country are

getting that this institution is hopelessly corrupt. and that therefore any means necessary are justified to restore their candidate who's currently on trial in southern manhattan. i think what most citizens should do here is actually take a moment and i would say this to my republican friends too, take a moment and realize that all people act on incentive, right. particularly politicians. we all do, but particularly politicians. the only way reform within the republican party is going to come is if people who are willing to govern are losing their jobs. are losing things they want. because then suddenly, they have an incentive to try to move away from an extreme base, and so in that sense, there might be a glimmer of light here because suddenly maga adjacent people are becoming victimized by maga

power. that's a possibility. the republican party has an enormous amount of work to do here, and i wish them well and everybody should because in our constitution, we need two functioning constitutionally devoted parties. and we don't really have one right now. >> yeah, headline in "politico" calls the republican party a failed state. a conversation for another day, i hope, jon meacham, thank you so much, we appreciate you being on the program. a lot more coming up in the second hour of "chris jansing reports." i'll talk to one of the eight republicans who voted to remove speaker mccarthy. what does colorado's ken buck say to accusations he's part of a group of anarchists in the house. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. msnbc i help others. but i need to help protect myself. honestly? i couldn't afford to get sick. i want to be there for this one. i can't if i'm sick. pneumococcal pneumonia is a potentially serious bacterial lung disease.

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