economic gains will be more felt by americans, that americans will see donald trump sitting in the courtroom next year, as well, and say, we can't do that again. that's their bet. we'll see if they're right. right now, though, looks like it'll be very close again. mario, we really appreciate it. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. what's your advice to the next house speaker? [ laughter ] >> that's above my pay grade. >> thank you, sir. >> okay. there you go. you know, sometimes, less is more, right? definitely got a lot less. >> i thought he would have gone to the sign of the cross. >> i thought that. i would have thought that. you know, we're all looking at what's happening in washington, but i've got to say, for those of us who have known donald trump for a long time and followed donald trump for a long

time, to borrow from "star wars" lexicon, there is a disturbance in the force there. like, he is shaken. i mean, here's the front page of "the daily news," talking about poor donald. of course, they're talking about him coming off the "forbes" list. if you want to understand donald trump, we've said this from the beginning, just understand the money. the money. i still think a lot of these criminal investigations and the possibility of going to jail, too abstract for him. but him sitting there, the possible of losing his businesses, losing trump tower, having to pay $250 million he doesn't have, i think that's getting to him. look at a clip of attorney general in new york state that i think has just kind of had enough. >> this case was brought simply because it was a case where individuals have engaged in a pattern and practice of fraud. and i will not sit idly by and

allow anyone to subvert the law. lastly, i will not be bullied. so mr. trump is no longer here. the donald trump show is over. >> i will not be bullied, katty kay. the donald trump show is over. >> let's see if the show is over. i have a feeling we have another year and a half to run, so we're only in the intermission, perhaps. so far, the first half of the show hasn't been looking that great for him up there in the new york courtroom. he does -- you know, he has the demeanor of somebody who keeps saying he doesn't want to be there but can't stay away. he is volunteering to be he's made the courtroom part of the campaign. his campaign manager is sitting behind him in the courtroom. he feels that this is a chance for him to appeal to his voters, as all the others have been. maybe this trial will be different, joe. maybe you're right, maybe it is about the money, being thrown off the "forbes" 400 list will matter to some of trump's

supporters. so far, every time he has a legal process like this, the reaction from the base and some in fact middle is, look, the state is overreaching. mar-a-lago must be worth more than $18 million. >> it's always been smoke and mirrors. his money has always been smoke and mirrors. moving things around. that's why he's always lied. it's why he's always exaggerated. every banker in new york city knows he lies and he exaggerates. every person he's gone into business with for the past 30, 40 years say, you know, they regret going into business with him because he immediately starts lying. he doesn't pay his bills because he doesn't have the money to pay his bills. he's facing the possibility of his business being shut down and his tower being taken away, and the possibility most frighteningly for him, he has to pay $250 million. anybody here think donald trump has $250 million of liquid assets to pay the court for a fine? because if you do, i need to sit

down and -- >> i think it's like -- your point is -- katty, i think, is right, the political impact of this is likely to be almost nothing. the psychic impact is huge. i think that's your point. if you're a student of trump as the man, the character assessment, new york means everything to him. washington was never his aspiration, right? >> no. >> it was always to be -- >> building big buildings in manhattan. >> or having his name on it. >> showing people like jamie dimon and -- >> who is boss. >> -- all of the masters of the new york finance world who the real boss was. it's falling down in front of his yies. >> or that he belonged with them, the grasping thing. i want to be in the club. i want to be the king of new york. whether i build these buildings or have my name on them, new york is central to the psyche, right? what letitia james said is right, the show is over in new york. this is a new york specific case where he is losing, whether it's

money, the visibility of the branding, all that stuff is in -- the hub is in manhattan. it was how to be the king of manhattan since he was young. he's no longer welcome. >> he is on out of boroughs, guy, willie, who wanted to be the king of manhattan. he had his name on buildings all over manhattan, as i said. every time i'd drive out the upper west side, heading up to my home in connecticut, i would see seven buildings in a row on the upper west side, trump, trump, trump, trump, trump, trump, trump. every day. second he got elected president and he started offending 60% of americans, one by one, his name started coming down off of those buildings. it started to decline as soon as he became president of the united states. you saw golf opens saying they weren't going to be going to his

courses. again, all the things that he valued. now, the possibility of losing his business in new york state, a possibility of trump towers being yanked from him, wall street property being yanked from him, and, again, very likely he is going to have to pay $250 million that nobody that i know that knows him thinks he has. >> yeah, physically, a few years ago, they pried his name all of all of those buildings going up on the upper west side. lincoln square over there. now, though, this is something else. trump tower is the monument in his eyes to his success, that he made it in manhattan. he came from an outer borough and made it in manhattan. has the building with the name on it. it's on fifth avenue, view of central park. you could see yesterday, and you've seen all this week, john, the fury. some of it, of course, is perform performative. he is intimidating witnesses, the judge, and the clerk, and all that, but he is really mad. when he comes out in the moments

after, when they have a break in the courtroom, and he did it yesterday -- we'll play it in a second -- he is raged. he was asked about the kevin mccarthy situation. did you engineer this? no, i didn't. now, this trial is a sham. it's a witch hunt, on and on and on. he knows. he feels something very important to him, central to who he is, slipping away in that courtroom. >> yeah. this one case is not political but it is very personal. >> yeah. >> it is very clear. he is very angry. with the little images we have seen inside the courtroom, he is glowering. he comes out every chance he can to yell at the reporters. he's back in florida. he won't be there today. it goes to show how much this is central to his identity. long before entering politics, he was about becoming this would-be master of the universe in new york city. he never quite achieved that. he was never really accepted by the elite in manhattan. he was always looked down upon as the outer borough kid, and that fed an insecurity that led to a lot of things, including

his entrance into politics later on. yes, he's not worth what he says. he probably doesn't have the money, but he is still obviously a rich man. that is going to change in some ways. he's not going to be able to have what he associates as success, which is money and the fame that comes along with it. i think we are seeing here, at least for now, the attorney general standing up to him. this is a case that's going to drag on for months, but it's a problem. >> it's a problem. he's not going to be there today. we'll play more of what he said yesterday and get into where it is going from here. we want to go to washington first and the race to become the next speaker of the house. two republicans now have announced they are running to replace kevin mccarthy. they are, as expected, chairman of the judiciary committee, jim jordan, and majority leader steve scalise. lawmakers say scalise has been making calls to shore up support and met with the texas republican delegation, the largest in the party. he has been the number two republican leader under mccarthy since 2019. jim jordan was the first to announce his bid for speaker.

the founder chair of the house freedom caucus is now serving as one of the party's leaders in the impeachment inquiry into president biden, also a close ally of former speaker mccarthy. pitching their candidacies, jordan and scalise pledged to unite the republican conference. meanwhile, congressman kevin hearn of oklahoma reportedly intends to r for speaker. he is the chair of the republican study committee and also has met with the texas delegation. joe, so two names at the top that were odds-on favorites. we all expected jim jordan and steve scalise. allies of kevin mccarthy, but, obviously, also people, if democrats thought, okay, something better is coming behind, these, in fact, in the case of jordan anyway, the very people leading the impeachment inquiry and have been defenders of donald trump, things people said they objected to in kevin mccarthy and why they voted not

to keep him in office. >> people leading a lot of the conspiracy theories. jackie, you know, democrats, if democrats wake up to a jim jordan speakership, i mean, who knows? they may be asking questions, like, why didn't a few more of us vote present? but right now, it remains a conference that is in deep disarray, and a conference that's trying to figure out its way forward. i've got to say, if they've got any brains in there, and i don't know if they do, but they got to worry about people like mike lawler. is a jim jordan speakership going to help or hurt mike lawler and other people in swing districts get re-elected so they can stay in the majority next time? >> real interesting day on the hill yesterday. it was pretty quiet, i think. everyone is sort of recalibrating and taking stock of the situation they're in. we barely heard anything from democrats, most of whom are headed upadedp to california fo

dianne feinstein's funeral. even on the republican side, a lot of closed door meetings, hearing the initial pitches from steve scalise, jim jordan, kevin hearn, and people starting to make heard what exactly they want to hear from the speaker. steve scalise focused on unifying an extremely fractioned house gop conference. jim jordan more focused on the details, saying, you know, talking about his plans for what happens in 40 days when the continuing resolution expires, what he will and won't fund, including he does not want to re-up funding for ukraine, a big point of contention amongst the gop conference. and then a lot of venting, i think. >> how much of the house conference, though? you have people like mike mccall, and seems the majority of the house conference who want to fund ukraine. >> well, based on that initial vote that we already had, there is a growing pool of people who are against it.

that actually could potentially tip the scales here. of course, it remains to be seen whether or not democrats get involved down the line and are sort of interested in some sort of coalition government. i mean, right now, that has been ruled out by several people that i spoke to, you know, in a background capacity yesterday. that conversation is not even on the table. >> on the republican side and the democratic side? >> both, exactly. >> yeah. >> you know, republicans are still furious at democrats, especially in the bipartisan problem solvers caucus, for what they claim is -- >> help me here. >> i know. >> help me here. >> i don't get it. >> so if you were in -- and i know i probably upset some progressives yesterday by saying, you know, maybe you think about protecting the institution and you keep the guy who is not going to get rid of ukraine funding and don't replace him with jim jordan. we can't expect hakeem jeffries to come out and say, "please vote for kevin mccarthy." >> yes. >> but if you are in the problem

solvers caucus, a caucus meant to protect the institution of the united states congress, do you not, as a member of the problem solvers caucus, go, "hey, guys, why don't we all just vote present on the democratic side?" >> thank you. >> right. >> we'll keep mccarthy in there, keep him on a short leash, let him know that, you know -- and, suddenly, you have a small group of people that have power. i will say, there were about 12 -- you remember when i was there. we had 12, 13, 14 people, and we had a disproportionate amount of power, but we used it wisely. this doesn't work, let's compromise. the problem solvers were in a position where they could have saved mccarthy, gone to him and kept him on a short leash. they can say, "you didn't ask us to do this. we're not going to do it again

if you keep moving forward in a way that's destructive to the institution." but they didn't do it. so why is there a problem solvers caucus -- >> that didn't solve the problem. >> if they just went, oh, and let one of the worst crises in recent house history go by them? >> it goes to show how deep the distrust is for mccarthy. essentially, there was democrats saying to brian fitzpatrick and other leaders of the caucus, we will help you if you make changes to the rules package, basically getting rid of the motion to vacate, which allowed matt gaetz and the far right insurgents really take the gop conference hostage. you know, even outside of congress, democracy scholars, a lot of people have agreed that the rules package as is, you know, is really corrosive to the system and penalizes people for working across the aisle and doing anything in a bipartisan basis. essentially, what they were told in return is, we don't have time to do this. the vote to vacate mccarthy is

happening today. we can't get a new rules package done. it's not realistic. democrats threw their hands up and said, well, you know, this problem is much bigger than today and the rules package. there are a number of things that mccarthy has done down the line to betray us. we can trust you guys. mccarthy can't be trusted. we're not going to bail him out. but you make a really valid point. i mean, dan lipinski, former congressman from illinois, said yesterday that in 2015, he was in then speaker boehner's office, and boehner suggested to him that when mark meadows was trying to overthrow the government and to take -- to overthrow speaker boehner's perch and see as speaker, pelosi suggested to him, "we got your back if there is a motion to vacate you. we will vote affirmatively against it." >> yeah. >> she was an institutionalist, and that is not what we saw this time around. >> no institutionalists. we'll be back in 60 seconds. when we come back, willie geist

is going to ask michael steel the two most important questions in washington, d.c. number one, how do the republicans get out of this mess? and number two, is the nfl showing too much taylor swift at kansas city chiefs games? we'll be right back. ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven, full-spectrum relief for all bipolar 1 symptoms. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles or confusion which may mean a life-threatening reaction, or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death,

weight gain and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. sleepiness and stomach issues are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. the republican party today just can't govern. nancy pelosi with a five vote majority was able to govern. the democrats are the party of discipline, and the republicans have become the party that lacks discipline. >> we'll get that taylor swift question answered soon. michael steele. >> yes? >> i said this from the beginning. oh, he only has a five-vote majority. how in the world? he can't even make scrambled eggs and toast with a five-vote majority. he can't even walk his dog. he can't take basic -- like, all these things he can't do because

he got five-vote majority. nancy pelosi won seven nba championships in a row. she's scaled everest. she threw out the first pitch of the 2022 world series. it was so good, they had her pitch the entire complete game, game seven. with a five-vote majority. >> that's it. >> by the way, you know how you knew something was going to pass? when nancy put it on the floor. if nancy put it on the floor. >> that's it. >> that's what i said yesterday. everybody is going to make this harder than it is. politics comes down to people, and it comes down to personalities and building relationships. >> yeah. >> it comes down to planning. >> yeah. >> like, i'm sorry, what idiot would ever put a vote on the floor that they knew they were going to lose?

kevin mccarthy. >> well, unless they really wanted to make a stupid point, and that's when you'd do something like that. ari is right in that in order to govern, you've got to have a governing philosophy. you have to have a purpose, a reason to move the country from where it is to some place you think is better. you have to be able to express that openly and honestly with voters, and be able to do the politics, what you were talking about, which is what nancy did. nancy knew where her votes were, knew where they weren't, and she knew how much of what she didn't have she needed to get. >> by the way, it wasn't always easy with her. >> no. >> the squad came on, and they were saying, we're the real progressives. >> exactly. >> but -- >> she shut it down, controlled it. >> yes. >> she did. remember when they were saying, you know, are you going to suppose the green whatever it was, the green new deal? she goes, what is the green new

deal? i don't -- she didn't allow herself to be pushed in the corner. she also didn't say bad things about members of her caucus. they worked it out behind closed doors. >> and she delivered on what she promised. that's the other thing. >> exactly. >> time and again, you hear of kevin mccarthy. why did nancy mace, not in the group of eight -- >> i'm trying to figure that out. what's that all about? >> seems to be personal. it's the trust thing. >> i can tell you what it is about. while all that is happening -- >> you say it's not an identity crisis. like, who is nancy mace? one day, she is truth teller, and the next day, she is mrs. gaetz. >> depends on how much money she wants to raise. >> the profile i've been working on her has been languishing. i'm figuring that out. >> it's just -- part of it, these personal relationships you're talking about, some of the people who voted against mccarthy, it's like he treated them badly. i come back to pelosi, the thing

this whole conversation goes back to, something we talked about yesterday on the air, one word, strength. you can't lead a caucus if you're weak, that you can be pushed around and be had. he started the tenure by saying, i'll let matt gaetz put my balls in his pocket for the ongoing time of being speaker. nancy never showed anything but strength. moderates -- >> it's a combination. >> -- she'd lean on them. yes, she also was -- she worked personal relationships behind the scenes, but out in front, she was, like, i will not be pushed around by anyone in my caucus. you can't lead that caucus if you look like you're a sitting duck. >> michael, that's the thing. first of all, you lead with strength publicly. >> yup. >> you say, "i can't do that." then you go to them and say -- i mean, this is not hard, kids. if you want to get into

politics, easiest job i've ever had. you go to them and go, "listen, i can't do that, all right? i know you need it. i can't do that. but tell me what else i can do for you." >> right. >> it may be two or three or four things. or maybe, i'm just beholden to you for the rest of this session, and i'm going to be working for you around the clock. but i can't do what you're asking me to do. it breaks up the conference. it doesn't work. we've got to get this bill on the floor. you give me this vote, and i know it doesn't feel great, i'll go to your district if you need me to explain it to you. i'll give you two or three more things. we'll announce an unveiling in your district of something i can get the conference to do. that's how we can work it. that's how the pros do it. they don't just tell a member, you know, "i have your whatever in my pocket," don't insult them. you're constantly working them. that's what i don't understand about kevin mccarthy.

you knew this train was coming for months, he just sat there like he was in an "austin powers" movie. >> you know, i think part of it was, he thought that he could avoid some of it. i think he thought there would be more members in the caucus who would have his back. to john's point, because he failed on those other fronts in terms of building those relationships and creating -- >> but you have whip counts. he knew they weren't going to be on his side. >> you have the whip counts, but, again, it's all about how you come into the game. he came in the game wrong. he came into the room the wrong way. he gave all the power to one or two individuals. >> right. >> set the tenor and tone of his speakership. >> what do you do? start working -- not to make it sound too easy -- but if you know you're starting with a disadvantage, work it to an advantage. you're working 24 hours a day going, what do i do? i know these three people are going to go after me any chance i can get. i need to talk to hakeem.

i need three, four democrats to vote present on anything. i'll do a quiet deal with him that my conference will never know about, then i'll work everybody else around those people and turn my adversaries into allies or make them neutral. that's what nancy would have done. it's what o'neil would have done. >> build yourself a ring of defense by figuring out, what can i get them that they need? do it from the beginning, find a majority that will support you when you know the motion of vacate is going to come. it is going to come. matt gaetz made it clear from the beginning it was going to come. the difference between the squad and the gang of eight is that the majority of the gang of eight are nihilists when it comes to government. they hav n interest in making itwork. that's not true of the squad. i mean, they came from the progressive wing of the democrat democratic party, but they were not interested in government failing because they want to prove to their voters that government doesn't work and shouldn't be funded.

that's the difference. >> the difference for me is that kevin mccarthy -- they had nothing to give kevin mccarthy because there was nothing that was of value to the system, to the structure. to your point, they wanted to blow the whole thing up. the squad was about a policy. green new deal. we want this on the environment and we want this, we want that. >> they wanted the system to fail. >> are you bargaining with the devil? >> i'll leave him out of it right now. he was on the hill, as well. what you do -- >> joe -- >> nihilists want nothing but attention. what do you give them? attention. you say, listen, i have a task force. this is going to be a big task force. >> come on, joe. these people don't want the task force. >> it'll be a border task force on building the new wall. you'll be in charge of it, and you're going to be chairman. >> they smell that from a mile away. how many times have they been told that? that's the problem. >> that's what i'm saying. you name something.

>> i think i disagree with one point. i think the original sin was he gave matt gaetz and the caucus the ability -- >> sure. >> once he caved on the rule change, it was done. >> wouldn't get the job without the rule change. >> there's got to be a line you draw. >> you -- >> but here's the thing. >> you're going to lose the job. >> again, when you find yourself in a position like this -- by the way, this is joe leadership 101, by the way. want to sign up for the online course, go to -- if you find yourself in a disadvantage, if you put yourself behind the eight ball, right, you're at this disadvantage. your job at that point is to immediately begin mitigating damages. you're working 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to mitigate the damages. you're going into it, jonathan lemire, and you know you're in a really difficult position, but you did what you had to do to become speaker. and then it is time to mitigate damages. i hear people go, oh, you can't

reason with anymore, you can't buy off anybody, you can't -- stop right there. you can buy off anybody with committee assignments, with task forces, with fundraisers, with, "hey, would you like to meetmy friend, johnny smith? he owns the largest iron ore whatever," whoever these people want. there is always a way to mitigate damages. kevin just sat there, like, with his feet in cement for, like, a year. >> yeah, and part of the problem with undermining mccarthy, and gaetz and his crew are difficult to deal with, is he lost everyone's trust. that's what we heard from republicans and democrats alike. mccarthy would say something in the moment to them to win their support but never follow through with his half of the bargain. simply, he broke a lot of promises and told a lot of lies. on this theme of republican chaos, there is no sense this is going to end soon. republicans i spoke to

yesterday, they point to the schedule of electing the new speaker, a candidate forum on tuesday, maybe the vote on wednesday. no one thinks that is going to hold. they don't think anyone has the ability to get the number of votes needed to become speaker, the 217. there are a couple vacancies right now. jake sherman at "punch bowl" news was with me on "way too early," and he doesn't think scalise or jordan will eventually be speaker. >> why is that? >> he does not believe they can get enough votes because they can't win over those handful of biden district republicans who would look at jordan and scalise and believe they will put them in uncomfortable positions, make them take votes that will doom their seat. he believes the next speaker is someone we're not even talking about just yet. but we could rule out one person. there are some republicans who floated the idea of donald trump, because you don't have to be a member of the house to be speaker. trump up early this morning, is posting, saying he wants to help out in the short term with the speaker's race, but then help elect a new speaker.

he will not side -- willie, he will not become the next speaker of the house. he is focusing on becoming the president of the united states. >> bowing out of that. >> gracefully. >> karl rove has an op-ed in the "wall street journal" this morning. let's just say, not a fan of matt gaetz, karl rove. it is pretty specific in its takedown and the implications for the republican party, as well. let's talk about what really happens from here. a lot of people said the number, by the way, is 217, because there are two vacancies. 433 members right now. you have to get 217 votes to become the next speaker of the house. who is the most likely candidate to get to 217? who are some of the names that are rising to the top of the list here? >> willie, right now, it's steve scalise, jim jordan, kevin hearn, and then there are a few other people who are sort of lurking around in the background, waiting to see if there might be an opportunity for them to shoot the gap and take advantage of what's likely going to happen, which is that scalise and jordan are going to

split the vote and neither of them are going to be able to get to that 217. there are lots of rumors and lots of speculation going on right now. one of the ideas being that, actually, patrick mchenry, who is right now the pro tem speaker, could benefit from some of the fractiosness we've seen. if republicans tire of the situation and hash this out behind closed doors, mchenry is relatively well-liked by some democrats, though his move to oust mccarthy and hoyer from their hideaways in the house chamber did not sit very well. >> that's not going to help. >> maybe he could be the one who would emerge as a voice of reason and match together some sort of bipartisan coalition. but there are a lot of moving pieces here. at the end of the day, there is not the same sort of hostility toward some of these people as there was for mccarthy.

you know, matt gaetz, bob good, they hated mccarthy and didn't want him to be speaker no matter what. >> why did they hate him? >> good question. we don't quite know. we saw some of it, actually, from cassidy hutchinson, in her book. >> did it have something to do with the -- i heard gingrich had said on -- had told halperin that it had to do with gaetz has two very serious ethics charges, and mccarthy wouldn't get rid of them. >> that is -- that is some of the speculation. we don't actually know the status of the ethics investigation that's going on in the house right now. it would be in the ethics committee, then sent to the house ethics committee. once that report is done, members decide what they're ultimately going to do with that. the house had essentially picked up that investigation once the department of justice decided that they weren't going to -- they declined to prosecute gaetz for sex trafficking charges. yeah, gaetz doesn't have a good

reputation here amongst even his own peers. we had a piece on tuesday that was essentially, you know, why does everybody hate matt gaetz? he has not won a lot of friends for his tactics, and for some of his behavior. remember in 2021, there were reports that -- we reported him showing pictures, inappropriate pictures, and making crude comments on the house floor to his colleagues. >> that came out yesterday on cnn. a member said that he was -- >> that was -- >> on cnn, i don't know if it sounded more recent, but he was saying that he was showing images of him doing things with women on the house floor. >> what kinds of things, joe? >> crushing up certain pills and sniffing it and on the house floor. members just, again -- >> don't like that, yeah. >> -- they don't like that. >> yeah. >> consider it inappropriate, by almost every -- across ideology. it unit sunites the parties.

>> there is a personal animosity that i don't think exists with other contenders. >> willie, thank you for looking past whatever jonathan lemire does on the set at 30 rock. you keep working with him regardless. >> all kinds of things being crushed up. >> just coffee in here, i swear. >> yeah, that was a colorful story told by one of matt gaetz's republican colleagues on the hill. it is all coming out now. you can see the frustration. clearly has been pent up for a long time. "the washington post"'s jackie alemany, thank you, as always, for your excellent reporting. coming up here, did donald trump admit to the fraud a judge found him liable for in new york? we'll play what the former president said outside of the courthouse yesterday that caught the attention of legal experts. we're back in a moment.

i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness

are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. (vo) in three seconds, pam will decide... ask about vraylar and learn (pam) i'm moving closer to the grandkids! wait. i got to sell the house! (vo) don't wait, just sell directly to opendoor. easy as pie. (pam) piece of cake. (vo) whichever. get your competitve offer at opendoor.com.

i'm andrea, and this is why i switched to shopify. it gave me so much peace of mind. if we make a change, my site's not going to go down. and just knowing that i have a platform that we can rely on, that is gold to us. start your free trial today. there are giants among us. they are the men and women building our navy's next generation submarines. they are giants in what they do because they work in a place where they can grow. where they can learn the skills to build careers as powerful as the beasts they forge. we build giants. because it takes one to build one. if we want a more viable future for our kids, we need to find more sustainable ways of doing things. america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars in new technologies and creating plastic products that are more recyclable.

durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow, we're focused on making plastics better today. only the sleep number climate360 smart bed lets for a better tomorrow, you both sleep up to 13 degrees cooler or warmer on either side, and at your ideal level of comfort. your sleep number setting the all-new queen sleep number® c2 smart bed is only $880. sleep next level. shop now only at sleep number.

i'm stuck here because i have a correct attorney general that communicates with the dodge doj in washington. they're fraudulent people, and the judge already knows what he is going to do. he is a democratic judge. in all fairness to him, he has no choice. he has no choice. he's run by the democrats. the financial documents that i gave to the bank are much less than my actual net worth. so, therefore, i gave them to the bank. they can't be a fraud because i gave them lower numbers. [ laughter ] >> come on. he's lost it. >> i can't be a fraud because i made the numbers lower. >> yeah, yeah. >> right. >> he knows, also, that all of that means absolutely nothing.

he's already lost inside the courthouse, katty. he can talk to the press all he wants, but he knows he's lost. i mean, this is all just preparation, prepping people for when he is found guilty of fraud. >> yeah, and it is a direct play to his base, right? all he is doing there is talking to his supporters. >> right. >> hoping that he can talk to some people in the middle of the political spectrum who haven't made their mind up about him. the message, time and again, with donald trump is, i'm the victim of the system. >> right. >> i'm the victim of the state. they've overreached. they hate me so much that this is yet another incident where they have indicted me, where they're prosecuting me, and they have overreach. there are plenty of donald trump supporters who believe it. there are plenty of people, actually, who haven't made up their minds yet, who have some sympathy with that argument. he just uses these appearances in court. >> yeah. >> that's why he is there. he uses it to campaign.

>> $250 million he has to pay, though. >> the data is the data is the data. the fraud is on the documents. lots of luck with that. let's bring in justice and legal affairs analyst, anthony coley. most recently the top spokesman at the department of justice under attorney general merrick garland. there is another attorney general up in new york state who is staying the trump show is over. you believe her? >> i do. she is really making a name for herself. what i really enjoyed watching coming out of this trial this week is not just what tish james said to the country, but what this judge ruled from the bench, in terms of this limited gag order. what he really said, he really drew the line, right? there's a certain level of criticism that any public official will take. >> right. >> but when you talk about people's staff with lies and innuendo, that's where he drew the line. he should have drawn the line. >> i like that it was a very

limited gag order. >> right. >> specifically to people that work for him. if, for some reason, it has to be expanded out a little later on, it has to be expanded out later on. for the fools, and i've heard a few of them, running around saying that this is, you know, somehow, you know, the deep state going after donald trump, you know, this is horrible, you know, and on another network, the constant refrain was, well, if they do this to donald trump, they can do this to you. well, yes, they can do this to you if you defraud your state a quarter of a billion dollars. again, it's on paper. this is not like trying to draw lines about conspiracy. it's on paper. he overestimates his net worth. he lies about it. he submits that to tax authorities. he submits it to banks. he's been busted. >> that's right. every legal challenge that donald trump is facing right now

he brought on his own. this is not -- he is not some victim of a woke prosecutor or a bias judge, which is what he wants all of us to believe. >> right. >> i do want to pick up on one thing that katty said earlier. i do think that, because there are so many cases happening right now, these things are beginning to meld together for the public. >> right. >> people are not paying attention to the particular facts in any of these cases because the facts are so clear and so overwhelming against donald trump. >> right. >> but they're looking at one big hodgepodge of a picture, in their mind, of a donald trump who is under relentless attack from the

from the press. >> right. >> that's why i really hope we can find some way, certainly in these federal trials, for cameras to be in these courtrooms. >> cameras in the courtrooms, it's so important. >> because there's so much misinformation and disinformation. the way to convince the public that he is being treated fairly is to keep the facts. >> let them see it. just let them see it, like they saw oj, like they saw amber heard and that other guy who was on "pirates of the caribbean." johnny depp. >> i have a question for you. >> yes, sir? >> you have famously a simple country lawyer, but i want to ask the question about the gag orders, right? so this judge issued this limited gag order. this will be an issue in every case trump has going forward. at least one of those cases, we

think, might happen during the campaign, right? >> right. >> you know trump. he's not likely to be restrained. you know, he is going to be on the campaign trail attacking judges, prosecutors, jury members, everybody. >> right. >> he is going to be out running for president, and he'll do it every day. there will be limited gag rules. people will try to again -- is there -- does the rubber at some point not meet the road, where this trump flouts these gag orders on the campaign trail and says, "hey, i'm running for office. i can say whatever i want," is there not going to come a moment where you have to threaten him with jail, give him contempt citations? how does it play out? a presidential nominee of one party in a courtroom. >> i mean, the first thing that every one of these judges is going to remember is the first thing they were taught about the first amendment and free speech when they were in their constitutional law class. i mean, political speech is the most protected speech.

man, you have a remarkably tough burden to overcome if you were going to stop, squelch, limit political speech. >> right. >> so you better believe that every one of those orders that are drawn up, every gag order is going to be tight. >> right. >> it is going to be limited. and a violation is going to be so obvious on its face and so egregious as to shock the consciousness of most americans. >> yup. >> that they can say to donald trump, "do it again, i'm going to bring you into court. i'm going to talk to you. if you can't get it right, i'm going to send you to jail and let you think about it." >> how does that look like, right? let's take the federal case, for example. october 16th. judge tanya chutkan has this hearing in federal court. how does she thread the needle? on the one hand, she can say, yes, we're going to enter this limited gag order. donald trump, you are allowed to

say that these are political prosecutions, right? okay. you can do that. it's not ideal but whatever. you're running for president. but what she will not allow, what she must not allow, is continued intimidation of witnesses in these trials, right? what we just saw last week, this attack on general milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, he is a witness in this federal case. you cannot and should not be allowed to intimidate him or anybody else. that's how she is going to have to thread the needle. >> but if he carries on doing that, what's the retribution? at what point? >> what's the remedy? >> i think he will ultimately appeal this. it is going to go to the supreme court. i was listening intently to neal katyal, our friend who was the acting solicitor general, who did an interview with alex wagner last night. he appropriately noted that this is a court who believes very strongly, put aside what their views are on abortion, but they

believe very strongly in the decorum of the court and the legitimacy of court. he makes the argument, and i tend to agree, that this court is going to stand up and going to protect these types of -- >> i agree. >> -- limited gag orders. >> as long as they're tightly drawn to protecting witnesses, to protecting judicial staff, to protecting prosecutors, to protecting lawyers involved in the case. >> right. >> if there is a tight nexus there, the roberts' court will uphold whatever limitations that they put there. >> that could be drawn as tight as you want. the reality of it is, as was already seen just yesterday -- >> right. >> -- donald trump basically says to his followers, you do it. >> right. >> there is no -- i mean, at the end of the day, i don't think this system is prepared to deal with this menmenace. >> yeah, there is. >> there's going to be a judge that will say --

>> where is the judge? >> they'll say, "you need to come into the courtroom. we put a gag order on you. you violated the gag order. you'll need to go to jail for two days. want to appeal it to the supreme court? i'll let you walk around. i'm not going to send you straight to jail. you appeal it to the united states supreme court. we'll see what they have to say." >> right. >> when it comes down -- >> you've already shaded it. this is my point. >> what do you mean? >> you say, "i'm not going to put you in jail. you can walk around." you and i go to jail. that's the point. >> you give donald trump every benefit of the doubt. >> he's gotten every benefit of the doubt. that's the problem. >> michael, if the judge rules that he's in contempt of court and needs to spend time in a federal penitentiary, it's all right to say, "you'll spend a week in the penitentiary pending your appeal. make your appeal." >> joe -- >> i agree, if it goes up to the supreme court and the robert

supreme court is not going to allow any defendant, any defendant to run over a judge or threaten a judge, they're going to uphold it, and he is going to be going to jail with the full weight of the united states supreme court, the conservative united states supreme court, saying he belongs in jail for a week. >> i'm not arguing with any of that. i'm saying the process is not prepared to deal with the outcome from that. >> of actually sending him. >> actually sending him to jail. that is the hesitation in this system right now. it is not prepared to pull the trigger you described, and i don't care what judge is sitting behind what bench. they're going to sit there and think long and hard about what you just described happening or doing. >> well -- >> and that's the problem with the system. >> and we just gave them a pathway, katty. >> i had a conversation with somebody from the trump campaign saying, look, they won't stop us talking because all our supporters are going to talk. we'll set up a nonprofit. we'll have a nonprofit do it,

who is not donald trump will tweet out the things we want to get out anyway. we'll get around it that way. >> that's fine. it's not donald trump doing it. >> yes. in the end, the question is whether you have this -- whether the system -- give a judge -- when the rubber meets the road, will they actually send him to jail? that is the question. if he repeatedly flouts gag orders -- >> simple. >> -- i think the supreme court will be behind it. but will a judge say, "i'm going to put that man behind bars in the middle of a campaign?" >> we hear the question. we have to go to break. no man is above the law. msnbc justice and legal analyst, affairs analyst, anthony coley. great having you here. thank you. coming up, joe manchin of west virginia is going to be our guest. we'll ask him what he makes of the republican chaos in the house, and ask him if he is going to be running for president. plus, rudy giuliani is quickly losing members of his legal team. why they keep jumping ship, and what we're now learning about federal prosecutors digging into

his reported drinking problem, something that even the trump campaign was talking about in 2016. it's mainly been whispered. it is on the front pages of "the new york times" today because, well, there's some legal dimensions to it. "morning joe" will be right back. evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage, plus prescription drug coverage. and coverage for dental, vision, and hearing, all wrapped up into one convenient plan. plus, there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! humana has large networks of doctors, hospitals and

specialists across 49 states. so, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. humana - a more human way to healthcare. i've struggled with generalized myasthenia gravis. but the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. vyvgart is for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are anti-achr antibody positive. in a clinical trial, vyvgart significantly improved most participants' ability to do daily activities when added to their current gmg treatment. most participants taking vyvgart also had less muscle weakness. and your vyvgart treatment schedule is designed just for you. in a clinical study, the most common side effects included urinary and respiratory tract infections, and headache. vyvgart may increase the risk of infection. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or symptoms of an infection. vyvgart can cause allergic reactions. available as vyvgart for iv infusion and now as vyvgart hytrulo for subcutaneous injection.

additional side effects for vyvgart hytrulo may include injection site reactions. talk to your neurologist about vyvgart. just a moment of your time, everyone! (whispering) keep it together, turkey. singlecare, the app that truly helps you save on your meds. is that... yeah, he's here every day. do you use singlecare? no, i have insurance. oh, singlecare can actually beat your co-pay. singlecare can also beat the price of your medicare plan. did you know you just search your prescription in the singlecare app, and show your coupon to your pharmacist... best of all, singlecare is free to use. marty it's time to go. i have a story to tell! check the singlecare price today! you're probably not easily persuaded to switch i have a story to tell! mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? it's true. plus, when you buy your first line of mobile, you get a second line free. there are no term contracts or line activation fees.

and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. it's happening. c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network.

i was going to ask you about news headlines and see what your take is. nothing too crazy. how about what everyone is talking about, travis and tay-tay. >> you joke, but it is what everyone is talking about. i cover the news every day, what is going on with donald trump and kevin mccarthy and congress and all that. yet, when on my phone it pops up, i'm like, babe, travis kelce's jersey sales are up 400%. >> every other headline. >> she's like, that's not something. but i don't know exactly what's going on. i do have a little of a theory, i hope it is not controversial. i'm happy for both of them, seem like great people. is there any chance that this is all a one big capital one

commercial? in other words, are we going to go through weeks of this, and at the end, they turn to the camera and say, "what's in your wallet"? >> i know, i think this is real. >> do you think it's real? >> i think it's as real as can be. >> i hope it is. i think it is. >> i think they're both cool people. >> very cool. >> i would love -- it is almost like when you see two people that you're like, they should date, like, i want to be at that party. >> yes. >> i want to be at this party. >> i'm totally on board. i want to put it in the universe, if it happens, that i was right. >> capital one ad. >> i'm telling ya. willie, maybe. maybe, who knows? the nfl is defending its focus on taylor and travis, and i think katty kay is all for it. >> oh, yeah. >> everybody is all for it. we want to see taylor. >> yeah. >> what do i want to see? >> pull in audiences. >> come on. >> people love it. what's the downside here? >> agreed. >> i see no downside whatsoever, willie. >> totally agree with the katty kay view, as i usually do. th nfl put out a statement.

some football fans, why do you keep showing taylor swift? the league put out a statement. quote, we frequently change our bios and profile imagery based on what's happening in and around our games culturally. the tayr ift and travis kelce news is a pop culture moment. we've leaned into the intersection of sport and entertainment, and we've seen an incredible amount of positivity around the sport. who is against this? >> come on. >> it's a tiny sliver of people who want attention, attacking taylor swift, usually from the far right. it was funny to see sean hannity, of all people, going on his show, unprompted, with a rousing defense of taylor swift. like, knock it off, guys. she's fantastic. from sean hannity. i love it. >> as john heilemann said today, we are all sean hannity. >> page 6 of the paper of record this morning, "the new york

post," john lemire points to, "wall to wall taylor swift and travis kelce." no other topics covered on the entire page 6. >> maybe it is a bit of a gag, but every single item on page 6 is taylor swift related. >> hold it up. >> here you go. this camera here. every single item is taylor swift related. >> come on. >> there it is. >> this shows it's not just the nfl. everyone right now, it is taylor swift's universe, and we're living in it. >> feel like everybody wins. who is mad about this? >> yeah. >> taylor swift was at this, at this. >> once again, "the new york post" proves why it is "morning joe"'s newspaper of record. >> think about the moment when -- the power of madonna, michael jackson, and bruce springsteen at their zenith in the mid 1980s, roll it up into one, multiply it by ten, you have taylor. >> a flaming supernova, as oasis would have sung.

>> she's blotting out the sun at this point. she's the queen of all media. >> she is the sun. >> michael steele, as i said, as i said a couple days ago, you know, we got an expression in the baptist church. you know, two people getting married, and the old ladies go, "y'all ain't evenly yolked." when you are, they go, "evenly yolked," this is going to work. let me tell you something. when you're the biggest music star on the planet, and a guy who is regularly seen by hundreds of millions of people as being the cog for the super bowl champion two years in a row, you're evenly yolked. this works. >> it works, for now. >> except, he has to wear a helmet to work every day. there are a lot of people in america who couldn't pick him out of a lineup on fifth avenue. there is not an airport in the world where everybody doesn't know who taylor swift is.

>> i think heilemann underestimates travis kelce's fame. the guy hosted "saturday night live." >> it was great. >> people in osaka, who knows him, compared to taylor. >> pick your asian airport, african airport. katty spent time in africa. how many would recognize taylor kelce? or -- >> all right, all right. >> it's a major thing. >> you're all kicked out of the courtroom. i'm finding you all in contempt. you'll be held in -- >> your honor -- >> -- in a federal penitentiary. coming up, we'll hear from one of the republicans who voted to strip mccarthy of his speakership. thousands of workers will be on picket lines today. one could become the largest health care strike in u.s. history. we'll go through that labor dispute when we're back in 90 seconds.

and get rewarded. get 50% off any footlong when you join subway mvp rewards. so many all star options. it's just for subway mvps right? you catch on quick herbert. join now and get 50% off any footlong.

season two of "triple confidential" is back. we dial into your l-i-s-e in 5g.

the 5 may stand for gay. some stay bill gates and oprah are antifa and secretly own all the world's fresh water. facebook memes suggest they are poisoning it with fluoride to make you enjoy rap music. jews, we know they caused hurricane katrina, but what are they planning with the space lasers? eight planets. eight nights of hanukkah. that adds up to 16, the same number of letters in barbra streisand's name, if you add an "a" here. go mental and blow up the cosmos. hanukkah, festival of frights, triple confidential, on fox nation, hosted by jfk jr. and sasquatch. >> wow. >> i'm not sure exactly what i saw there, willie. >> a lot in there. >> what was that? whew. >> i don't know. the scary thing is, almost everything you heard in there

has been proffered in certain dark corners of the internet, and sometimes amplified by members of the house of representatives. >> well, i was going to say, and most of those conspiracy theories i have had to rebut from friends in emails. >> yeah. >> yeah, welcome back to "morning joe." jonathan lemire, katty kay, and john heilemann still with us. joining the conversation, mark leibovich from "the atlantic." for some reason, he didn't come with painted nails and a broach. not sure why. he got the memo. >> it has to do with barbra streisand. you have to take the "a" from mark. >> also with us, white house correspondent for "politico" and co-author of "the playbook." he is a "morning joe" senior contributor and a senior contributor because, when he gets the memo, he reads it and does it.

>> i followed your lead. >> exactly! >> every morning. >> exactly. puts us -- >> i don't know how you do it at 7:00 in the morning. for me to get out of bed on set, you know, by 7:00 in the morning, there's not a chance for broaches, nails. >> he has a team. >> yeah. >> somehow, that doesn't happen for me. >> yeah. >> i roll out of bed, see what i slept in, wipe the crumbs off. >> you're fresh as a daisy. >> fresh as the month of may. anyway, willie, i want to talk about the race for the speaker. >> uh-oh. >> come on, it is not exciting. really, these are clowns. they've clowned themselves. i don't know what they'll do. i would like to talk baseball first. we had a couple of surprises, couple teams that were supposed to go pretty far in the playoffs

out after two games. >> imagine you're the tampa bay rays, win 99 games, great season, only didn't win the division because the orioles had a better season, and it's over in 48 hours. tampa bay rays swept out of the playoffs, as was every team in the wild card round yesterday. four games yesterday, four series that ended in sweeps. the twins are moving on, a great story, john, we don't talk about much. they're a really good team. brewers also has a great season. they're done. diamondbacks are moving on. clean sweeps across the board in the wild card rounds. >> with clean sweeps, no baseball. we have to watch the bears and commanders, which i wouldn't recommend. >> hold on a second. lemire, let me ask. t.j., who has the right to the baseball games? can we show highlights? >> yeah, sure. standby. >> here's the deal. we're talking baseball, right? let's try this again.

we'll cut it and post. don't worry, everybody. hold on one second. hold on. >> count us back in, yeah. >> three, two, one. it's a wonderful broach. i have to get one next time. hey, willie, some incredible baseball games yesterday. i'm telling you, there are a couple teams supposed to go deep in the playoffs. they're out. >> nice, clean edit point. i'll come back in by telling you that the rays -- >> ready. three -- hold on. you got the tape ready, t.j.? three, two, one. go, willie. >> we begin in minnesota, where the twins have won a playoff series for the first time in more than two decades, sweeping the toronto bluejays with a 2-0 win in game two of the a.l. wild card series. the twins advance to play the astros in a best of five division series. game one in houston saturday. let's go to st. pete. >> what a clip. >> the rays, as i mentioned in a previous segment, won 99 games

in a regular season. none in the playoffs, though. rangers beat tampa, 7-1, not even close. completing a sweep there. rangers go to the alds for the first time sce 2016. they visit the a.l. east champion baltimore orioles, game one saturday afternoon. now the national league. the d-backs are raising another deficit, coming back to beat the brewers, 5-2, completing a wild card sweep there, as well. d-backs take on the n.l. west champion dodgers in the opener of their best of five in los angeles. philly, another sweep. a six-inning grand slam led to a sweep of the marlins. phillies' 7-1 win sends them to an nlds rematch with the braves. game one there saturday in atlanta. >> wow. >> there we are. >> there you have it. there is the video evidence, john, of the things we were talking about. >> yeah, no, it is going to be -- it's disappointing that this round is already over. i think the braves, obviously, the big loser here, as you say,

playing in front of a half empty stadium. lifeless in their two defeats to texas. we're set up now with a couple of really good next round matchups. the twins have been under the radar all year. they take on the astros. america will be rooting for minnesota there, i think. baltimore orioles are, you know, the story of the american league east all year. texas, sort of another surprise team. you know, the dodgers will be favored against a young diamondback squad, but the braves were the best team in baseball all year long. phillies were in the world series a year ago. thunderous offense. braves have injuries on the pitching staff. that'll be a classic. can't wait to watch. >> yeah, it'll be fantastic. the real winners here have been all of us. we got to see probably some of the best editing by t.j. >> real time. >> probably some of the best since christopher nolan's "momento" in 1999. it has you guessing what is going on, what's going to

happen? that's what t.j. gives us every morning. >> when you see the old clips of monday night football, like the opening was three, four minutes, the editing, the cuts, over here, gifford over here, howard. t.j. reminded me of that. he pulled that out. >> beyonce video. >> exactly. >> this week in baseball. >> this week in baseball, so good. >> we watched highlights when we were kids. >> it is almost like t.j. worked the room. >> i love t.j., just for the record. >> thank you. thank you, willie. >> he is the best. >> oh, t.j., we love you. let's go back to now the second most important story behind baseball, and that is the race to become the next speaker of the house of representatives. two republicans announced, officially now, they are running to replace kevin mccarthy. they're chairman of the judiciary committee, jim jordan, and majority leader steve scalise. scalise has been the number two republican leader under mccarthy since 2019. jordan, the founding chair of

the house freedom caucus, serving as one of the party's leaders in the impeachment of president biden. in letters to colleagues pitching candidacies, jordan and scalise pledged to unite the republican conference. meanwhile, for the latest episode of "the circus," jen palmieri, our friend, and john heilemann's buddy, tim burchett, sat down after casting a vote to remove mccarthy. >> the leadership is probably not thinking you're going to be a problem. they'll think you're going to vote to -- >> well, do i trust my conscience? i prayed about it. honestly, i slept like a baby last night. i slept like a baby last night. kevin mccarthy called me this morning, and the first thing he said was something i thought was very condescending. >> what'd he say? >> just about, you know, well, were your prayers answered, something, i don't know. to me, it said right there, i said, "well, you've answered it

right there." i hung up with him, after it was heated toward the end, i said, "thank you, lord. you gave me my answer. it maybe wasn't the one i wanted, but it was the right answer." i want a leader, man, that does -- i don't want them to do exactly what i say, though it would be easier for me, but i want one that takes these issues on head on. i don't need a best friend in the speaker's office. i need somebody that's going to -- that values our oath and what we promise we say we're going to do, as much as i do. >> joe, you listen to the justification for the vote from this group of eight, and you do hear, in the interview with jen and others, how personal it was in many ways for them. they didn't like kevin mccarthy or feelings were hurt in some way by kevin mccarthy, so they voted to turn the whole thing upsidedown. >> yeah. again, politics is a personal thing. you either have the touch or you don't have the touch.

it doesn't sound like kevin mccarthy had the touch. whatever he did to this guy that offended him. >> joe, if you came to me and said, if i was kevin mccarthy and you were a congressman, and you said, you were going to pray on your decision and i walked in to lobby you to vote for me. i wouldn't say, "so did you talk to your god last night? did you finally do that prayer thing? did you get down on your knees?" you know, i mean -- >> no, no. >> doesn't seem like the right approach. he's like, yeah, actually did, thank you very much. >> it makes them all sound kind of -- i mean, he called me up and was condescending. it's nothing there about the need to keep the government going or the issues or the spending. it's all about the personal relationships. >> it's politics, right? i keep saying, you've got to be good with personal relationships. man, politics is a tough game. you've got to put up with at a lot of stuff. keep your head down.

people go, "oh, he said that my bill wasn't drafted well." i'll go, "dude, i go to lunch with people who call me a murderer." like, it's a rough game. >> that's very condescending. >> exactly. >> very patronizing. >> the point is, yeah, it's a tough game. you're in the public spotlight. again, it seems to me, the burden was shifted the wrong way. the burden was on kevin mccarthy for them to not explain why they were going to blow up the house and remove the speaker for the first time in american history. instead of having the burden being on themselves and their own thought process, saying, is this so bad that i can't get by another week? now, we're hearing from this congressman and other members of congress. i'm sure they have a vote. they're empowered by their 600,000 people to do what they want to do, so that's his

choice. it seems to me the burden here should have been, i'm going to do something that has never been done in the history of united states government, and it is going to send shock waves across the globe, about how dysfunctional american democracy is. this will be loved by vladimir putin and xi and iran and by erdogan and everybody who considers us their enemies. do i have to take this vote and vacate the chair? instead of, i don't like what he said about my prayer. >> but that's a different congress and a different, you know, republican party and different conservatives in the republican party. >> it's responsibility. it's actually putting your country over your petty feelings first. >> now, a lot of what the republican party has become after donald trump, we talk about this all the time, is be tough and be tougher than the other guy. personal animus.

i'm not going to let you take over me, let you say whatever you want to me. i'll come out in front and knife you in the front. also, not thinking about the implications. talking about the history, right, like, is this man so bad, is kevin mccarthy so bad that i am willing to make him the first speaker in history who loses his seat? people weren't thinking about that. they were thinking about the person. matt gaetz was not thinking about that. he wasn't thinking about how the impact, how this is going to look to folks. that is a completely different republican party. >> jonathan lemire, there is a "washington post" piece this morning that talks about how bad this is for american democracy, how dysfunctional it makes american democracy look. basically, they don't bring up "seinfeld," which is supposed to be a tv show about nothing, but this is a shutdown about nothing. that was illustrated when kevin mccarthy was in his 14th or 15th vote, and somebody asked, one of the ringleaders of this group then, what other demands do you

have? well, we don't have any. he's given us everything we want, yet they continued. it was about nothing, gestures, fundraisers, about blowing up the united states government and sending a fundraising letter out while you were doing it. >> yeah, that's precisely right. these are people that are involved in grabbing a headline, making some money, pitching their next podcast, trying to figure out a cable contributor deal after they leave office. whatever it might be. they're look to enhance their own brand or stardom and doing very little in terms of advancing an agenda. frankly, some people believe they'd rather be in the minority because you can bomb throw and you don't have to lead. >> sure. >> so i think that is where we are now. that is what we're going to see for the next couple of weeks as this speakership fight is going to be protracted and ugly, most believe. it comes against the backdrop of a possible government shutdown. we're on 40 odd days or so until

that happens. president biden has had this question put to him repeatedly. foreign allies ask, okay, america is back in the post-trump era, but for how long? bide n tells the story of being at the g7 summit and being greeted with anxiety from our longest allies. this uncertainty includes the uncertainty about whether ukraine funding will be coming forward here. zelenskyy believes the u.s. will stand with kyiv in the months ahead. there's real worry that it is going to be in a much smaller portion than it was before. and this alliance, showing the first signs of fraying, could take a real hit if the republicans get their way. >> we're seeing some resistance to the funding, not just from the radical group of republicans, but it somes to be seems to be spreading. mark, you have an article, "the souvenir speakership."

quote, washington loves a death watch, which is what the mccarthy speakership provided from its first wee hours. the gavel looked like a toy hammer in mccarthy's hands, the way he held it up to show all his friends once he have elected. he gav his tormenters the weapon of his own demise. the ability of a single member of his confereo execute a motion to vacate at any time. tuesday, as it turns out, is when the hammer fell, day 269 of kevin held hostage, writes mark leibovich. we were saying that in real time. you get the job but at what price? he wanted to call himself the speaker of the house. he was able to do that for about nine months. on that 15th vote, he agreed to a rule that cost him the job. >> yeah. again, this was all pretty inevitable. people were saying, i mean, almost from the word go, okay, this is going to get congressperson x to call the motion to vacate. you know, in some ways, mccarthy's strategy was getting through day-to-day, promise

this, renege on that, you know, dance a little here, dance a little to that. basically his mantra during the brief speakership was keep dancing. there's politics to dancing. ♪ do a little dance make a little love get down today ♪ are you saying he is kc and the sunshine band? >> no. i'm aging myself. >> not far enough. they're in the '70s. go ahead. >> politics of dancing was in the '80s, right? anyway, i think what we learned here is, which we learned before, is these are some of the neediest people in america coming to one of the most neediest -- >> is kevin particularly needy? >> kevin mccarthy? >> yeah. >> not necessarily. he is on the other side of the neediness. he spends his whole day tending to the neediest of the world.

i almost feel sorry for him. how do you keep all of these people who are trying to get on tv, trying to be the dissenter, trying to be the person who is seen as the agitator, how do you keep everybody happy? >> they're never happy. >> most were, to be honest. to be fair, he got the vast majority of his caucus. he kept it together longer than i certainly thought. again, i don't think he did it in an enviable, principled way. that's not kevin mccarthy. >> let's state the obvious. if he had a 30-vote majority like everybody thought -- >> no problem. >> -- never talked about any of this. you had 5, 10, 15 people raising hell, they're pushed off to the side. take them off the committees. you punish them. the second the democrats overperformed as much as they did, this was going to be a trial for anybody but nancy pelosi. >> correct. i agree. i think, yes, his fate was sealed when he agreed to the

motion to vacate rule, but i also think it was sealed when we had a slim margin in the house back in november. >> it was important to remember, he was thinking a year before the election, he was going to win by 50. that's what he kept telling people. here's a prime example of unintended consequences of conservatives getting their dream, which is the overturning of roe v. wade, and it's just one more example of roe v. wade having an impact on american politics. because there's no doubt, abortion played a huge role in stunting that red wave. >> yeah, surprising role, right? one of the things that has usually been true about politics is, you know, something happens and the american people are mad for a little bit but then they move on. that's not been the case with abortion, and democrats have done a really good job of making sure it stays front and center for their party. republicans have helped them in a lot of ways. >> you look at ron desantis, six week ban. >> iowa.

>> florida, trump won by 3.5 points. desantis won in a big way. florida is not a liberal state. i mean, it's sort of a libertarian state. don't tax us. at the same time, there are a lot of people that come from across the country, across the world, a lot of women that don't want to be told, "you can't have an abortion after six weeks." >> yeah. and republicans now are realizing that, but they're not changing anything. >> yeah. >> we still don't have a policy. >> who is realizing that is donald trump. >> right. >> donald trump is deliberately positioning himself as the so-called voice of reason on this issue, saying, look -- i was speaking to the campaign the other day. we're going to do with 15 weeks with exceptions. that's a position we feel americans could come on board with. if they sell that successfully, you know, in some of the suburbs of philly we always talk about, milwaukee, atlanta, i think there is a concern there for the white house, if trump manages to put himself into that, you know, position. of course, it all comes down to

the details and what exceptions are, but, still, it's a different position from six weeks, certainly. >> exactly. >> suburban women who are gettable, persuaable voters, they're going to believe he's suddenly pro choice? >> he has quotes, i killed roe v. wade. >> he put the conservative justices on the court. >> yeah. >> half the court have people determined to overturn roe v. wade. the record speaks for itself. if democrats can't make that point, he jammed the court full of people overturning roe v. wade -- >> it makes democrats' job harder than a six-week ban. >> yeah. >> '83, leibovich. >> by who? >> reflex. >> re, hyphen, flex, politics of dancing. >> oh. >> i heard. >> it's a darker moment. >> 1977 type stuff. >> yeah, '83. >> that was the speaker battle

of the last one. i don't know. >> mr. leibovich -- >> i don't know what he is talking about. >> i -- >> and you didn't wear a broach. wear a broach next time. >> you know, i didn't want to broach the subject, but -- >> he is wearing a broach. you can't see where he is wearing it. >> true. >> eugene daniels, mark leibovich, thank you for being with us. it is unclear about how the chaos in the house and around the set of "morning joe" might impact additional u.s. aid for ukraine. ahead, we'll have the latest on ukraine's fight, including new signs russia might be losing its hold on crimea. you're watching "morning joe." we will most likely be back. >> should be. >> i don't understand. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right?

[dog barks] oh. no it's just a bunny! calm down taco. sit duchess. stop! sesame no no. archie! walter don't, no, ahhhh. ahhhhh! you're lucky you're so cute. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

(vo) in three seconds, pam will decide... only pay for what you need. (pam) i'm moving closer to the grandkids! wait. i got to sell the house! (vo) don't wait, just sell directly to opendoor. easy as pie. (pam) piece of cake. (vo) whichever. get your competitve offer at opendoor.com. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. ( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. does the disarray on capitol

hill after your conversation with allies yet, were you worries you won't be able to deliver the aid for ukraine? >> it does worry me. there are members in the house, senate, both parties, who have said they support funding ukraine. with your -- i'm going to be announcing very shortly a major speech i'm going to make on this issue and why it is critically important for the united states and our allies that we keep our commitment. >> president biden with that answer to our peter alexander yesterday about aid to ukraine. on tuesday, the president held a phone call with allies to reaffirm america's support for ukraine. meanwhile, "the wall street journal" is reporting russia's military has moved ships from its black sea fleet away from the crimean peninsula in the wake of attacks on the ports. defense editor at "the economist" joins us now. thank you for being with us this morning. you're writing that western help

for ukraine is likely to begin to diminish at some point next year. we've seen some cracks in the support in the house of representatives here in the united states, but, broadly, the support is still there. president biden has pledged to continue western support, but how concerned is president zelenskyy? how concerned is ukraine that this could start to fade? >> i think profoundly concerned. the problem isn't that we can't get another package. we'll get another package by the end of the year. the real problem is the policy mantra is as long as it takes. we'll support ukraine as long as it takes. what the events of the past week have done in blowing up the political basis of that is raised deeper questions over the next package, over the subsequent months, and what happened in 2024 when things get really tough for ukraine. make no mistake, next year is going to be really tough on ammunition, manpower, and aid. if we can't bridge the gap to the easier years of 2025, when

western ammunition is being churned out in far larger numbers, that's a really dark period for ukraine. >> shashank may not have the broach or the blue fingernails, but he had a great talk i went to in washington the other night. one of the things you said at the talk i thought was interesting was the role of the u.s. in this. part of the role of the u.s. is giving the actual material it is giving, but it is also giving a load of intelligence. it is giving technology around jamming systems, and it is giving european countries security guarantees, so they can empty supplies and give that to ukraine, as well. sort of spell out all the different components of what the u.s. does and what might happen to the components if republicans say, right, that's it, we're not funding anymore. >> look at the statistics. europeans are neck and neck with the americans on military aid, which people may not realize. it's not a feckless, useless continent who -- >> never, never. >> we'd never think that.

>> part of the reason i'm here. >> never a phrase i've heard at this table before. >> no, no. so i will say, early on, all right, i said by eary on, maybe six months or a year ago, the u.s. doubled supplies, but you all were helping in other ways. are you saying now military contributions? >> katty, it's not just the number of guns or tanks, you know. who brokered the 750,000 rounds of south korean artillery shells that basically enabled this ukrainian offensive, without which you don't have a ukrainian offensive? it was the americans doing it through south korea. belgium, france, italy, spain are not going to do that deal. it relies on american leadership. similarly, the intelligence of the leadership in the ukraine defense contact group meetings across europe, and the confidence to say, if you are slovakia or poland, to hand over mig-29 fighter jets to ukraine.

the confidence to do that without being terrified of a russian response, that comes from an american umbrella over europe. europe has, i think, six months, eight months before the election next year runs into, you know, sort of a ramp up, to think really hard about how it substitutes not just the weapons but all the other stuff the united states is doing to keep ukraine in this fight. >> let's talk about the level of confidence among european leaders. that the ukrainians can accomplish their goals. i will tell you, a lot of us have heard talking to pentagon officials and white house officials over the past year, a real skepticism that this spring/summer offensive was going to accomplish its aims. even general milley said publicly, there's no way they were going to get every russian troop out of ukraine by the end of the year. there's no way that, you know, putin was going to achieve his military or political objectivities in ukraine. he said, we'll have stalemate for a very long time. given that, what's our best way

forward, and how long are the europeans, are european allies going to be willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the ukrainians? >> european support is pretty solid, right? elections could change that. we just had a very unpleasant election in slovakia which could see a pro-putin faction come to power. of course, we have poland/ukraine. but france, germany, countries that have been previously wobbly are supportive. i agree with your assess. we have to remember that we have to bridge the ukrainians through next year. don't expect miracles. neither side will have huge offensive capacity. there will be no big offensive next year, but use the time to figure mistakes of this year. give them ten weeks of training. >> where are the briish people? the economy is struggling. how long are the british people going to be with the ukrainians? >> the british support -- i speak to british government officials who say, we are polling people all the time. they're afraid of the same thing, especially if you have a tough winter on energy prices.

we're more reliant on gas than other european countries. but, they say, the numbers are very solid. support for ukraine is as high as it has ever been, with one small caveat. interest is falling away. that's the problem. it's attention and enthusiasm. it isn't support. no one wants to sell out ukraine, but the question is, is it top of the headlines? is it top of the agenda? not so much anymore. that's the challenge. >> you said something amazing the other night, which is how low britain's own military supplies have gotten. i think it was around shells. >> i made the point, look, we have given them so much. our war stocks, ammunition stocks, can be measured in the hours. for an american general hearing this, they'll be collapsing with fright. americans like resilience. you guys have warehouses full of stuff. if you haven't got ten warehouses full of atacms to deal with a taiwan scenario, some general somewhere will have heart palpitations.

in europe, we've worn it down bone, and the ukraine effort has exacerbated that. it is worse now, and we have to fix that, as well. there is a view, especially estonia, in the east, that says, look, the russian army is in ukraine. every destroyed tank in ukraine is a tank not coming here. give them everything. empty the armories. we have time. there is no urgent threat. i am somewhat sympathetic to that. >> before we let you go, how badly weakened is the russian military now? >> hugely so. i mean, this is a force that is set back by, i think, five to ten years. it's lost 2,000 tanks. it's lost all of its most professional officers and experienced officers. this is not a force that's going to be threatening europe for many, many years to come. >> all right. defense editor of "the economist," shashank joshi. up next, a way to express the loss of a loved one. we'll speak to michael cruz cane for a conversation on grief and

connection, and his mission to help others cope. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ ♪ wake up, gotta go! c'mon, c'mon. -gracie, c'mon. let's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully. this month join the new subway mvp rewards program and get rewarded. get 50% off any footlong when you join subway mvp rewards. so many all star options. it's just for subway mvps right? you catch on quick herbert. join now and get 50% off any footlong.

there are giants among us. you catch on quick herbert. they are the men and women building our navy's next generation submarines. they are giants in what they do because they work in a place where they can grow. where they can learn the skills to build careers as powerful as the beasts they forge. we build giants. because it takes one to build one.

with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed without fingersticks. manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. it's covered by medicare for those who qualify. ask your doctor about the freestyle libre 2 system. people are always asking me ask your doctor about the two words come to mind for me. one is responsibility, the other is purpose. it's just so inspiring to do research that impacts human lives.

stand up to cancer has been a critical partner in advancing research for cancer. cancer research saves lives. so please help us fight in this battle against cancer.

these are the stages of grief. you're probably familiar. denial, oh, it's not happening. anger where you're like, i'm so mad it's happening. bargaining, where you're like, i wish it were cheaper. depression, where you're so sad about it. and acceptance, where you will never, ever be. i wish that we dealt with grief better and talked about it more, but we don't. that's silly because everybody is going to die, right? 100%. maybe not sarah, but the rest of you for sure. look around. this is a room full of pre-dead

people. me, too. >> pre-dead people. quite a way too think about life. that's a clip from the audible original one-man show, "sorry for your loss," written by and starring comedian michael cruz kayne. in it, he uses humor to talk candidly about struggles to cope with loss and grief following the death of his newborn son more than a decade ago. michael joins us now. so great to have you here. >> thank you so much for having me. >> we should tell viewers, you are a writer for stephen colbert. welcome back to work. >> joy and privilege to be back. >> the speaker, trump stuff. >> the news apparently keeps going, as you two probably know. >> yeah. well, you're back, so i want to talk about your story. before we get into the show and all the ways you're helping people talk about grief, including people like us who want to be there for people but don't quite know how to do it in words. if you could, if you don't mind, tell us a little of the story of fisher and truman, your twin

sons. >> yeah. my wife got pregnant with twin boys, and the pregnancy was very rocky to keep it brief. and they were born. we thought they were going to be healthy after, you know, all these trials we'd been through during the pregnancy. 34 days old, all of a sudden, fisher got incredibly sick and had something called evolvulus. got sepsis and pretty much died immediately after that. >> truman is almost 14. >> his twin brother will be 14 in a couple weeks. happy birthday, bud. >> how is truman doing? what's that been like for him this entire experience? >> we talk about it as a family. truman is my son, and wila is my daughter, carrie is my wife, and we talk about it all the time. not all the time. whenever we think about it, we try not to make it a taboo subject in the house. sometimes out of the blue, one of our kids will have a question about fisher or about death, and we try to just talk candidly

about it with them. obviously, you know, there is a kid version of it. but we do our best to make it something that can exist because grief is just a part of life. >> so on the tenth anniversary of the death of fisher, 2019, you just started writing about it on twitter. >> yeah. >> it became this twitter thread that just exploded because so many people could relate to it or wanted to sympathize with you. that's what led to the one man show, and now the audible version of it, as well. why did you want to go out publicly in that way to talk about this? >> it had been something that i hadn't hardly talked about at all for ten years. for some reason, i woke up on the -- his -- the anniversary of his death, and it felt like i had to talk about it. i was doing stand-up. i was writing comedy. it just felt like everything felt so inconsequential. the thing i was thinking about was i had a son who died that nobody knew about. so i wrote something on twitter,

which i didn't really expect anyone to read. i'm popular on twitter. it sort of caught on, and there were thousands and thousands of responses and interactions with this tweet. it justified the suspicion that i had, that a lot of people felt this way. it was people just sharinghe most, like, brutally horrific stories, and they just wanted someone to know that this had happened. >> michael, obviously, that triggered such a response from people who are saying things to you, expressing condolences, what it may be. i know your show is about this, the importance of people listening to someone who is grieving. >> yeah. i think there is a tendency that is really nice, to try to fix someone's grief, to ask a question and then kind of jump in with, well, here's -- i have a story, also, about grief. oh, your son died? well, i have a cat that was really sick, and that's kind

of -- does that make you feel better? >> real story? >> yeah. i think the best thing you can do is try to be real with someone. like, tell them how it really makes you feel. ask questions. really listen to the answers. don't hope that in one conversation, you are going to heal someone from the worst thing that's ever happened to them. >> it's a hard thing from the other side of it, isn't it, because you do want to -- you have fret intentions and want to help the person in some way. you say, sorry for your loss, which is the title of the piece, which seems pro forma almost, like the thing you say. then there is, how are you doing? well, terribly. my child died. >> right. >> help someone else through this. is it just being there? is it just listening? >> i think you have to accept that the conversation is going to be awful. like, it is going to be really hard. you're going to not know what to say, and you'll fumble through things. take the temperature of the person who is in the epicenter of whatever terrible thing has happened, and try to meet them

at their level. i definitely had conversations with people where i tell them or they ask me about it, and they are, in this moment, a billion times sadder than i am, and it is a weird thing that happens. i am now comforting the other person to be like, hey, are you okay, about this terrible thing that happened to me and my family? so you want to avoid maybe over empathizing with it. >> so you're a comedian, obviously, who, in the show, grapples with an incredibly sad subject. we saw a taste of how you do it in the clip. when you sat down to try to be funny in some way about this incredibly dark, sad topic, how did you start? >> i think that the way i thought of it was not, i'm going to try to be funny about this, but i'm just going to talk about it. i am incredibly funny. so it'll be funny, you know what i mean? which i guess is more to say, like, i didn't want to deliberately make it somber. i wasn't like, this is a sad

subject. let me be as sad as i can possibly be, and let the people who listen to this be destroyed by it. it was more, like, let me talk about this in the way i know how to. the death of my son is not funny to me, right? it's like, it's a bomb that went off in my life and the life of my family. but existing is hilarious. so, like, just talking about it in the way i think about it, i knew that would make people laugh. >> and it does. and you've given so many people enter and a way to talk about this stuff. so many people who have gone through what you've gone through relate to it. you can see it, "sorry for your loss," available on audible. it is excellent. michael cruz kayne, thank you for being here. great to meet you. >> thank you. >> back to work for stephen. he is waiting for you. the largest health care workers' strike in american history is entering the second day, already impacting patients. we'll go through the issues that led them to the picket lines, ahead on "morning joe."

♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. ( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. this is a bombas performance sock. for such a small item it performs big in so many ways. big on comfort. big on durability. big on breathability. bombas gives you big comfort for all your athletic pursuits.

the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network.

costello has the latest. [ chanting ] >> reporter: this morning, a big union is turning up the heat on kaiser permanente. tens of thousands of workers walking off the job for three days as talks stamed from virginia -- >> people got into health care because they wanted to take care of patients and they're stretched too thin. >> reporter: -- to denver. >> everybody's depressed. everybody's quitting because they can't handle it, you know,

it's just a lot of work. >> reporter: to sacramento. >> we are here because they have been dealing with short staffing crisis for months, if not years. >> reporter: on strike, pharmacists, optometrists, vocational and lab technicians, demanding more pay to offset inflation. some patients can way months for a primary care appointment and waiting hours in the er. >> covid was a nightmare three years ago, and we're still not done. >> reporter: most doctors and rns are not on strike. >> we're committed to addressing the staffing crisis, but we're equally committed to addressing affordability crisis and that's the issue at the table. >> reporter: kaiser says hospitals and ers will remain open during the strike, but some elective procedures may be postponed. >> it was heartbreaking

yesterday to get the news it was canceled when it was already rescheduled once. >> reporter: tiffany young's 17-month-old son kaden was supposed to get tubes put in his ears. that's been postponed until december. >> he's just in pain and it's horrible the see him, and i know, like, it's a minor surgery, but to a parent and seeing your baby hit his ears and crying, you know, it's heartbreaking. >> nbc's tom costello reporting there. still ahead, the donald trump show is over. those words from new york's attorney general after the former president's contentious, angry day in court. we'll have the latest in the civil fraud case against him. plus, our conversation with the great bob odenkirk. "morning joe" is coming right back. b odenkirk "morning joe" is coming right back

only the new sleep number smart beds let you both sleep at your ideal level of comfort. your sleep number setting. and now, all of our new next gen smart beds have temperature benefits. the all-new queen sleep number® c2 smart bed is only $880. sleep next level. shop now only at sleep number.

when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill.

when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save.

what's your advice to the next house speaker? >> that's above my pay grade. >> thank you, sir. >> okay. so there you go. you know, sometimes less is more. we definitely got a lot less. >> i thought we would have got a sign of the cross. >> i would have thought that. so we're all looking at what's happening in washington, but i've got to say for those of us who have known donald trump for a long time and followed donald trump for a long time, to borrow from "star wars" lexicon, there's a disturbance in the force there. like, he's -- he is shaken. here's the front page of "the daily news" talking about poor donald and of course, they're coming about him coming off the "forbes" list, but we've said if you want to understand

donald trump from the very beginning, just understand the money. the money. i still think a lot of these criminal investigations and the possibility of going to jail, too abstract for him, but him sitting there and the possibility of losing his businesses, losing trump tower, having to pay $250 million that he doesn't have. i think that's getting to him. look at the clip of an attorney general in new york state that i think has just kind of had enough. >> this case was brought simply because it was a case where individuals have engaged in a pattern and practice of fraud, and i will not sit idly by and let anyone to subvert the law, and lastly, i will not be bullied, and so mr. trump is no longer he. the donald trump show is over. >> i will not be bullied, katty kay. the donald trump show is over. >> well, let's see if the show is over. i have a feeling we've got

another year and a half of this show to run. we're only in the intermission perhaps. >> yeah. >> but so far, the first half of the show hasn't been looking that great for him up there in the new york courtroom. he does, you know, he has that demeanor of somebody who's -- who keeps saying he doesn't want to be there, but clearly can't stay away. that's what's weird. he's volunteering to be there. he doesn't have to be in the courtroom every day, and he complains he would much rather be out on the campaign trail. he's done a ton on the campaign trail, but he says i would rather be on the campaign actually than on this courtroom. he's made the courtroom part of the campaign. his campaign manager is sit right behind him in the courtroom. so he feels that this is a chance for him to appeal to his voters as all of the others have been. maybe this trial will be different, joe. maybe you're right. maybe it is all about the money and being thrown off the "forbes" 400 list, and that will matter to some supporters, but every time he has had a legal process like this, the reaction from trump's base and from some in the middle have been, like, look. the state is overreaching and

mar-a-lago must be worth more than $80 million. >> it's smoke and mirrors. his money has always been smoke and mirrors, moving things around and that's why he's always lied and exaggerated. every banker in new york city knows he lies and he exaggerates. every person he's gone into business with for the last 30, 40 years say they regret going into business with him because he immediately starts lying. he doesn't pay his bills because he doesn't have the money to pay his bills and he's facing the possibility of his business being shut down and his tower being taken away, and the possibility most frighteningly for him, he'll have to pay $250 million. does anyone here think donald trump has $250 million of liquid assets to pay the court? if you do, i need to sit down -- >> the sauce? >> yeah. >> i think to your point, katty i think is right that the

political impact of this is likely to be almost nothing, and the psychic impact is huge. if you are a student of trump, as the man, you know, the characterological assessment, you know, new york means everything to him. he didn't want to come. washington was never his aspiration, right? his aspiration was to be -- >> buildings. big buildings in manhattan and showing people like jaime diamond and all the masters who the real boss was, and it's falling down in front of his eyes. >> or at least he belonged with them. i want to be in the club. i want to be in the establishment. i want to be the king of new york, whether i build these buildings or slap my name on them. new york is central to the psyche, right? >> right. >> what letitia james said is right. the trump show over in new york. he's losing whether it's money, the visibility of the branding. all of that stuff is in the hub. it's in manhattan, right? that's been, you know, kind of

his fix since he's been young is how to be the sing of manhattan. he's no longer welcome really. >> he's an outer boroughs guy who willie, you know, wanted to be the king of manhattan. he had his name on buildings all over manhattan as i said. every time i would drive out the upper west side heading to my home in connecticut, i would see several buildings on the upper west side, trump, trump, trump, trump, trump, trump, trump. every day. the second he got elected president, and he started offending 60% of americans, one by one, his name started coming down off of those buildings. it started the decline as soon as he became president of the united states. you saw golf opens saying they weren't going to be going to his courses. again, all the things he valued and now the possibility of losing his business in new york

state, the possibility of trump towers being yanked from him, his wall street property being yanked from him, and again, very likely that he's going to have to pay $250 million that nobody that i know that knows him thinks he has. >> yeah. i mean, they physically a few years ago pried his name off of all those buildings going up on the upper west side, lincoln square over there, and now though, this is something else because trump tower is the monument in his eyes to his success that he made it in manhattan. he came from an outer borough and made it in manhattan and he's got a building with a name on it. it's on fifth avenue and has a view of central park, and you can see yesterday and all this week, john, the fury. he's intimidating witnesses and the judge, and the clerk and all of that, but he's really mad. when he comes out in those moments after when they get a break in the courtroom and he did it yesterday. we'll play it in a second. he's raged -- he was even asked about the kevin mccarthy

situation. did you engineer this? no, i didn't. this trial is a sham. it's a witch hunt. on and on and on. he feels something important central to who he is slipping away in that courtroom. >> this is not political, but it's very personal. it's very clear. he's very angry, with the little bit of images we've seen inside the courtroom. he's glowering and coming out every chance he can. he's back in florida and he won't be there today, but it goes to show how much this is central to his identity, that long before entering politics, he was about becoming this -- a would-be master of the universe in new york city and he never quite achieved that. he was never accepted in manhattan and he was looked down upon that led to a lot of the career choices and entrance into politics later on, but this is something that also imperils his fortune, and yes. he's not worth what he says. he probably doesn't have that money, but he's still obviously

a rich man, and now that's going to change in some ways, and that he's not going to be able to have what he associates as success, which is money and the fame that comes along with it, and i think we are seeing here at least for now, the attorney general standing up to him and this is the case that's going to drag on for months, but it's a problem. >> it's a problem. he's not going to be there today. we'll play more of what he said yesterday, get into where it's going to go from here, but we want to go to washington now, the race to become the next speaker of the house. two republicans are running to replace kevin mccarthy. they are jim jordan and majority leader steve scalise. lawmakers say scalise is making calls to shore up support and he's met with the texas republican delegation, the largest in the party. he's been the number two republican under mccarthy since 2019. jim jordan was the first to announce his bid for speaker. the chairman of the house freedom caucus is now serving as one of the party's leaders in the impeachment inquiry into president biden and also a close

ally of former speaker mccarthy. in their letters to lawmakers pitching their candidacies, both jordan and scalise pledged to unite the republican conference. meanwhile congressman kevin hern of oklahoma reportedly intends to run for speaker. he's the chair of the republican study committee and also has met with the texas delegation. joe, so two names at the top that were odds on favorites. we all expected jim jordan and steve scalise, allies of kevin mccarthy, but also people, if democrats thought, okay, something better's coming behind, and these, in fact, in the case of jordan who are leading the impeachment inquiry and have been defenders of donald trump, some of the things democrats say they objected to in kevin mccarthy and why they didn't vote to keep him in office. >> it's these conspiracy theories and, you know, jackie, if democrats wake up to a jim

jordan speakership, i mean, who knows? they may be asking questions, like, why didn't a few more of us vote present, but right now, it remains -- it remains a conference that's in deep disarray, and a conference that's trying to figure out its way forward, and i've got to say, if they've got any brains in there, and i don't know if they do, but they've got to worry about people like mike lawler. is a jim jordan speakership going to help or hurt mike lawler and other people in swing districts get re-elected so they can stay in the majority next time? >> it was a really interesting day on the hill yesterday. it is pretty quiet. i think everyone is recalibrating and taking stock of the situation they're in. we've barely heard anything from democrats, most of whom are headed out to california for dianne feinstein's funeral, but even on the republican side, a lot of closed-door meetings hearing these initial pitches from steve scalise, jim jordan,

kevin hern, and people starting to make heard what exactly they want to hear from the speaker. steve scalise more focused on unifying an extremely fractured house gop conference and jim jordan, a little bit more focused on the details saying, you know, talking about his plans for what happens in 40 days when the continuing resolution expires, what he will and won't fund including he does not want to re-up funding for ukraine which was a big point of contention amongst the gop house conference, and then a lot of venting. >> how much of the house conference though? because you have people like mike mccaul and it seems a majority of the house conference who want to fund ukraine. >> well, based on that initial vote that we already had, there is a growing pool of people who are against it, and that actually could potentially tip the scales here. of course, it remains to be seen whether or not democrats get involved here down the line, and

are sort of interested in some sort of coalition government. i mean, right now that has been ruled out by several people that i spoke to, you know, in a background capacity yesterday that that conversation is not even on the table. >> on the republican side and democratic side? >> both, exactly, that they're, you know, republicans are so furious at democrats especially in the bipartisan problem-solver's caucus. >> help me here. help me here. >> i don't get it. >> so if you are in, and i know i probably upset some progressives yesterday by saying, you know, maybe you think about protecting the institution and you keep the guy who's not going to deep six ukraine funding and don't replace him with jim jordan, but yeah. we can't expect hakeem jeffries to come out and say, please vote for kevin mccarthy, but if you are in the problem-solver's caucus, a caucus that is meant

to protect to institution -- >> thank you. >> -- of the united states congress, do you not as a member of the problem-solver's caucus, go, hey, guys, why don't we all just vote present on the democratic side? we'll keep mccarthy in there. we'll keep him on a short leash. we'll let him know that if, you know, and then suddenly, you have a small group of people that have power. i will say, there were about 12 -- you remember when i was there. we had 12, 13, 14 people, and we had a disproportionate amount of power, but we used it wisely because i know that doesn't work. this works. let's figure out how to compromise. so the problem-solvers were actually in a position where they could have saved mccarthy, gone to him and kept him on a short leash. they could say, you didn't ask us to do this. we're not going to do it again if you -- if you keep moing forward in a way that's destructive to the institution, but they didn't do it.

why is there a problem-solver's caucus -- >> that didn't solve the problem. >> they let one of the worst crises in recent houses go by them. >> it shows how deep the distrust is for mccarthy. democrats said to brian fitzpatrick and some of the other leaders of the caucus, we will help you if you make some changes to the rules package. basically getting rid of the motion to vacate which has allowed matt gaetz and these far-right insurgents really to take the gop conference hostage and, you know, even outside of congress, democracy scholars, a lot of people have agreed that the rules package as is, you know, is really corrosive to the system and penalizes people for working across the aisle and doing anything in a bipartisan basis. what they were told is we don't have time to do that. the vote to vacate is happening today. we can't get a new rules package done and democrats threw their hands up and said, well, this

problem is much bigger than today and the rules package. there are a number of things mccarthy has done down the line to betray us. he can't be trusted and we're not going to bail him out. you make a really valid point. dan lipinski, congressman from illinois said in 2015 he was in then-speaker boehner's office and he said when they were trying to overthrow the government and to overthrow speaker boehner's perch, pelosi suggested to him, we got your back if there is a motion to vacate you. we will vote affirmatively against it. coming up, one of our next guests is a central figure whit comes to bridging the two parties. west virginia senator joe manchin joins our conversation straight ahead on "morning joe." n straight ahead on "morning joe."

( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. the new subway mvp rewards earns you points when you order. -superbowl mvps really do get all the perks? i'm talking about subway mvp. it's a way bigger deal. do you get a trophy for that? i wish. get rewarded like an mvp. join now and get 50% any footlong.

when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save.

that first time you take a step back. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy, with a partner that puts you first. godaddy.

the republican party today just can't govern. nancy pelosi with a majority, she was able to govern. the democrats have been able to become the party of discipline, and the republicans have become the party that lacks discipline. >> i've said this from the very beginning. this is what he said. he only has a five-vote majority. how in the world? he can't even make scrambled eggs and toast with a five-vote majority. he can't even walk his dog. he can't take basic --, like, all these things he can't do because he's got a five-vote majority.

nancy pelosi won seven nba championships in a row. she scaled everest. she threw out the first pitch of the 2022 world series and service so good they then had her pitch the entire, complete game. game seven. with a five-vote majority. >> that's it. >> and by the way, you know how you knew something was going to pass? when nancy put it on the floor. if nancy put it on the floor -- >> that's it. that's right. >> i said yesterday, they're going to make this harder than it is. politics comes down to people and it comes down -- it comes down to personalities and building relationships. >> yep. >> and it comes down to planning. >> yeah. >> like, i'm sorry, like, what idiot would ever put a vote on the floor that they knew they were going to lose? kevin mccarthy. >> unless they wanted to make a

stupid point and that's when you do something like that. this -- this is right that in order to govern, you've got to have a governing philosophy. you've got to have a purpose, a reason to move the country from where it is to someplace you think is better, and you have to be able to express that openly and honestly with voters, and be able to do the politics which is what you are talking about, which is what nancy did. nancy knew where her votes were. she knew where they weren't, and she knew how much of what she didn't have, and she needed to get where she needed to go. >> it wasn't always easy with her. >> it wasn't always easy, no. >> they said, we're the real progressives and you're not progressive. >> she shut it down. she controlled it. >> she did. remember when they were saying, green, you know, are you going to support the green -- whatever it was. the green new deal? she's, like, what's a green new deal? she didn't allow herself to be pushed in the corner. she also didn't say bad things about members of her caucus.

they worked it out behind closed doors. >> and that's -- that's the difference. >> she delivered on what she promised. time and again you hear from kevin mccarthy. why did nancy mace who is not in that group of eight -- >> i'm trying to figure that out. what's that all about? that's just weird. >> trusting. >> i can tell you what it's about. while all that's what's happening -- >> an identity crisis? like, who is nancy mace? one day she's truth-teller. the next she's, like, mrs. gaetz. who is she? >> it depends how much money she wants to race. >> the profile i have been working on her has been languishing. >> elusive. >> i have been figuring that out. >> part of it is these personal relationships you're talking about. some of these people who voted against mccarthy, he just treated them badly. they felt as hard done like democrats, coming back to pelosi, the whole thing this comes back to, one word,

strength. you can't lead a fractious caucus if you seem weak. if you project that you can be pushed around, you can be had. mccarthy started his tenure by basically saying i'm going to give matt gaetz my balls in his pocket for the rest of when i'm speaker. nancy pelosi never projected anything other than strength with anybody who was fractious in her caucus. the moderates were astray, she would lean on them. if the squad was astray, she would lean on them. she worked personal relationships behind the scenes, but out in front, she was, like, i will not be pushed around by anybody in my caucus. you can't lead that kind of caucus if you look like you're a sitting duck. >> and michael, that's the thing. you -- first of all, you lead with strength publicly. >> yep. >> you say, i can't do that, and then you go to them and you say -- this is not hard, kids. if you want to get into politics, easiest job i've ever had. you go to them and go, listen.

i can't do that. i know you need it. i can't do that, but tell me what else i can do for you. >> right. right. >> it may be two or three or four things, or maybe i'm just -- i'm beholden to you for the rest of this session, and i'm going to be working for you around the clock, but i can't do what you are asking me to do. it breaks up the conference. it doesn't work, and we've got to get this bill on the floor. you give me this vote, and i know it doesn't feel great. i'll go to your district if you need me to explain it to you. i'll give you two or three more things. we'll announce an unveiling in your district of something i can get the conference to do, and that's how we can work it. that's how the pros do it. they don't just tell a member, you know, i have your whatever in my pocket or, you know, you don't insult them. you constantly work them, and that's what i don't understand about kevin mccarthy up. knew this train was coming for months and he sat there like he

was in an "austin powers" movie. >> i think part of it was he thought he could avoid some of it. i think he thought that members in the caucus who would have his back, and to john's point, because he failed on those other fronts in terms of building those relationships and creating -- >> but you have the counts. he knew they wouldn't be on his side. >> he had the whip counts, but it's about how you come into the game. he came in the game wrong. he came into the room the wrong way. he left and gave all the power to one or two individuals. >> right. so what do you do now? you start working. if you know you're starting with a disadvantage, you work it to an advantage, and you're working 24 hours a day going, okay. what do i do? i know these three people will go after me any chance i can get. i need to talk to hakeem. i need to get three or four democrats to vote present on anything. i'll do a quiet deal with him that my conference will never know about, and then i'm going

to work everybody else around those people and turn my adversaries into allies or at least make them neutral. that's what he could have done. that's what nancy would have done. that's what tiff o'neil would have done. >> you build yourself a ring of defense by saying, what can i give them that i need? you see if there's a way you can find a majority that's going to support you when you know that motion to vacate is going to come because it is going to come because matt gaetz made it clear from the beginning it was going to come, and i guess the difference between the squad and this gang of eight is that the majority of that gang of eight are niahlists when it comes to that. they come from the progressive ng othe party, but they didn't want to blow up government. they were not interested in government failing because they wanted to prove to their voters that government doesn't work and shouldn't be funded. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> oh, look at that! give me money. i filed the motion to vacation using official actions, official

actions to raise money. it's disgusting. >> we will speak with republican congressman garrett graves who slammed some of his colleagues for fund-raising off the effort to oust kevin mccarthy from the speakership. the congressman joins our congress straight ahead on "morning joe." s our congress straight ahead on "morning joe." trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd... ...medicine has the power to treat copd... ...in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler,... ...trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler... ...for sudden breathing problems.

tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating,... ...vision changes, or eye pain occur. take a stand, and start a new day with trelegy. ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy... ...and save at trelegy.com. about a cashew farmer from mozambique named carlos. carlos lifted himself out of poverty with the help of techoserve. go to technoserve.org and see how you can support struggling farmers like carlos. it's a different way to make a difference. there are giants among us. they are the men and women building our navy's next generation submarines. they are giants in what they do because they work in a place where they can grow. where they can learn the skills to build careers as powerful as the beasts they forge.

we build giants. because it takes one to build one. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ jardiance ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee. ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea

or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell, ♪ ♪ the little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i'm gonna hold you forever... ♪ ♪ i'll be there... ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪

only the very best with just the right amount of dirty. that's a joke.

that's a joke. >> actor bob odenkirk is perhaps best known for his role in saul goodman in the series "better call saul," but there's perhaps a lesser known side to bob, that of poet. when bob's kids were growing up, he wrote poems that became part of a family book and he and his daughter erin are sharing it in their new poetry book titled "zilot and other important rhymes." bob odenkirk joins us now along with the book's illustrator and bob's daughter, erin odenkirk. it's good to have you both on the show. i couldn't wait for this. what is a zilot? >> it's a blanket fort. you've called it an indoor fort or blanket fort your whole life and didn't know there was a word for it, but my son called it a

zilot one day. >> that's a pretty good word. >> it's got some zing to it. >> i like it. >> it became -- we wrote these poems when we would do our reading time. we would write a poem, and i knew some of them -- they're just a mess, most of them. if you read a poem with a 4-year-old, it's not going to come out too -- >> what was reading time? >> reading time before bed. we would read four, five books, maybe more. a lot, and before nap time as well. >> dr. seuss, shell silverstein. >> all the greats. >> once we were done reading, he would whip out this book and we would write one or two poems. he would write a line and we would write a line, and they're nonsense. they're good. >> some of them. erin did the drawings and she's

been an art student her whole life. she attended pratt institute here in new york and got better and better. that's our dog, olive right there, and she, you know, this was during the pandemic. we decided to get to work and rewrite these poems and make them better and for her to make some drawings, and it came out so much greater than i could have imagined and hoped for, and she's just gotten excellent over the years because she's a very serious person. >> well, i am the daughter of an artist and the mother of an artist. so i have major respect and so i'm wondering what this process was like for you and seeing the finished product and also what it was like to work with your dad and also the rest of the family. >> yeah. it was great. it was -- i mean, we're all very serious and we take ourselves very seriously and we take comedy very seriously, and so it was both fun and intense, and it was very rewarding.

it was rewarding at the end of every night to walk into the living room with some art and show my dad and talk about it and talk about what could be changed about it and sort of get that respect from an artist and a person who i respected back. >> oh. >> it was just so fun. >> so bob, give us a sense as to what we should expect beyond a new word for a blanket fort. tell us more. >> thank you for asking. the poems were written with a kid. so they were -- erin and her brother are two years apart, and they were written 4, 5, 6, 7, so the subject matter is often food, cleaning up, chores and other things that the kids were delighted by, like, my son liked the 99 cent store because he was able to buy things, and there's a poem about the 99 cent store, so it's all stuff that kids in

that age range are thinking about on a daily basis, but the kids want to write about silly things, and so the poems are about all kinds of fun, silly things. this one's called "gooby." it's about a dog that goes crazy before bed and runs in circles and a lot of kids have that same energy right before bed, and so the subject matter and the funniness of the, the silliness, it all comes from little kids. >> so erin, when you started drawing, sketch drawing or whatever, just fooling around on a doodle pad i would imagine, how old were you, and then how old were you when you realized what you were doing and that's what you wanted to be? >> interesting question. i must have always drawn. i think my first memories of it are being, like, 5 and 6 and drawing my cats, like, on a saturday morning in the living room, but i -- it's hard to know

that an artist is a real job that a real adult could have when you are young, and it wasn't maybe until i was deciding what college i could go to and i realized that there were art colleges that i was, like, oh. maybe that's something i could actually do, and this book helped solidify that because all of a sudden, there are these people taking my doodles seriously and having due dates for them and edits for them, and it's been a long process to come to consider myself an artist. yeah. >> you are for sure right now. the poetry book "zilot & and other important rhymes" is out next thursday, october 10th. bob and erin odenkirk, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you for having us. >> thank you. i'm a big fan of the show. thank you for what you do, all of you. >> thank you. >> thank you, guys. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." ning jo"

i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some. it can stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer;

death, heart attack, stroke, defending their own borders.ey'. and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. the administration has to say enough is enough. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease trump basically declared a state risk factor have higher risks. of emergency. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. done settling? in a heartbeat and shut it down ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save. tight. >> and additional funding. >> you have was done years and years ago. you just put one foot on our soil and you have all these rights. people are sick and tired of seeing them getting hotel rooms and overrunning of west

virginia, we have orchards and they need people to help. we have housing for them, everything. we could have taken some from new york and every state can. you're not going to fix this by saying the federal government is responsible for all the people coming here. everyvirginia, hypothetically. e. >> the workers are needed in restaurants, hardware stores, across west virginia. they're needed in every state. let me m there really was a bit of a political explosion several months ago regarding the possibility of you running as a >> you wouldn't get involved with no labels unless you knew it would get in the way of donald trump being elected president? >> joe, first of all, forget

from day one because it was the only venue i had in washington to sit down with democrats and republicans and have conversations. if that's where it goes and that's where this thing develops to, having another option right now when people are so disenchanted with the options they have and repeating what they had before might force everybody to come back to their center, if they will, center left, center right where

basically we made good decisions. i think it's a good thing, the movement. it's not about me.cause i belie. so let me say this to the next speaker of the house whomever that may be. think carefully about what happened to your predecessors before trying to coddle the hard right. each of your predecessors got burnt each time. i urge the next speaker not to make the same mistake not just this smash and grab, i'd have cleaning. for their own future, but for the country's. we have forest fires and work to >> senate majority leader chuck be done. they're not just going to walk schumer with that message to away with a slap on the wrist. republicans in the house as they look to elect a new speaker, and >> do you think joe biden is the that comes as lawmakers face a best candidate on the democratic november 17th deadline to pass a side to beat donald trump? >> i think what you have is it's government spending bill. let's bring in right now proven that joe was able to beat donald trump. is he portrayed the same as he democratic senator joe manchin of west virginia. joe, what's going on? was when he ran the first time? come on, man. >> i wish i knew, joe. i don't know. that's to be seen. >> what's going on? >> it's a shame. i watched it unfold the way it the movement to the left is a has, and i know a lot of the little bit further than what people, most of the people over this country is.

there. >> you also know how to work it i have respect for all of them. from all angles. i try to work with everybody. you have been a governor. >> yeah. >> you have been a senator. if you're in my position or any you know how to make dealsdeals >> this one seemed to be position in america, everybody personal. for some reason, and i don't know the ins and outs. should say a prayer for the president to succeed. i know people who are rational if he does well, everybody does well. you've got to speak truth to and reasonable, democrats, power. i said you're going too far. moderates who would have reached over and helped kevin. there was a purpose and reason you're way ahead of your skis on they didn't do it. >> we have been talking about certain things. the problem-solver's caucus all >> is that a yes, you do think morning. here's a problem. solve it. joe biden the best candidate to vote present, and don't blow up beat donald trump? the institution because again, >> the polls are flipping back this is the first time the house and forth all the time, but has been without a speaker in right now he is going to be the american history. choice of the democratic party. >> i can only speak for myself. i believe that's what they're rallying behind. if i had been a house member, >> do you think he's the best you would have been voting for kevin mccarthy. >> regardless of your party? choice? >> i don't know who else is out >> whether i was upset with him there, who's willing to get into the race. until you have an open primary about anything personal, i would or you have challenges, you not let that interfere, but there's more to it than i know, really don't know. so you would have to ask them, >> do you think there should be an open primary? but this seemed to be personal, would you welcome somebody? and i can't tell you the reasons >> i've never ran unopposed. why, but for the sake of our country, we should have overlooked that. >> when it's personal, again, i've always said you run scared

you have been around the block. >> yeah. >> when it's personal, what do unopposed. i've always been scared because you do? you got a personal problem with i've never been unopposed. me. you know there's something i learned from every race i was personal. you also know that i'll have a vote in the next three, four, ever in i've learned from my five, six months where i could opponents. the person running against me, i put you out of your position as speaker. got knowledge from them. do you sit back and go, oh, it's personal or do you get to work i could pick something, i could on it? use it. >> i think, joe, first of all, the thing about it, it would you have to look at how many people basically will vote for something that they know will harm them back home politically, make joe probably a stronger but they know it's the right thing to do, and they know that this is what the country needs and what you are there for. if they're not willing to step candidate. >> let's go watch a game across that, and protect themselves, i guarantee they together. >> i'd love to. won't make that when you are asking them to make it. >> all right. so i've looked at it that way. i can pretty much tell a person democratic senator joe manchin of west virginia, thank you so if they've reached over and this much. great to see you. coming up next, another is against their best interest back home, but they still tantrum from donald trump introduce the legislation outside the courthouse in the knowing it might be harmful, but civil fraud trial. this one got a response from new it was good and it turned out to be the right thing to do, that person will always step to the plate and go over, but this one york attorney general james. e fw york attorney general james. got deeper than i've ever seen. i can't explain it. i really can't, but we're in a

much more -- >> you say you can't explain it. the era of trumpism has been politics by gesture. >> well. >> these people -- let's talk about incentives. it used to be if you voted for, i don't know, a bill that helped banks. what's the incentive? you go to fundraisers. the banks write big checks for you. same thing with shell. if you help shell or bp, you go to a fund-raiser and in this case, you've got these people who know that if they blow the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time things up, if they blow up the you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. house, if they attack the we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. speaker, if they make these start an easy to build, powerful website for free gestures, they fund-raise off of with a partner that always puts you first. it -- >> yeah. >> and they get tons of money from across the country, and you start for free at godaddy.com had people that were fund-raising off of -- off of -- >> january 6th. >> january the 6th, fund-raiing off of taking out kevin mccash -- mccarthy. >> mm-hmm. >> and putting them in a place they've never been in history while doing it. >> what's the root cause? it's the districts.

when you are able to gerrymander a district and pick it any way you want to, and have basically the ideology in your district the same as you are, and you have no repercussion because when you go home, you'll have that support, they're embrazen to say whatever they want to. they have a nonpartisan commission that looks at it using computer-driven models of how do you have more balance in there? as far as the senate, we have to be a little bit more flexible and be balanced because we're representing our whole state, but in a district, you can carve out districts and democrats and republicans both do it. >> yeah. and there's no repercussion whatsoever. the other thing is, and i have been speaking about this forever and i try to get a resolution that an ethical violation for any sitting senator or congressperson, it would be an ethical violation to campaign or give money against another sitting colleague. you can have a hostile work environment and think things are going to be hunky dory when you

come to work, but when you have to sit down has been the financial documents that outcampaigned against you and they gave this person money i gave to the bank are much less against you and did everything they could to defeat you in your own state and on monday or than my actual net worth. tuesday says, hey, joe. so therefore i gave them to the how about this? will you work with me on that? bank. they can't be a fraud because i that's not human nature. gave them lower numbers. you have a hostile work but i'm stuck here, because i environment. you've got districts where basically it's a loaded gun have a corrupt attorney general they're giving you and they're saying, okay. make this work. that communicated with the doj >> "the wall street journal" in washington to keep me nice calls it the era of rage, but and busy. they made up a fake case. all of this -- if this were its they're fraudulent people. the judge already knows what own fight, it would be one he's going to do. thing, but it has real life implications and for the rest of he's a democrat judge. the world. you're still wearing your in all fairness, he has no choice. he's run by the democrats. ukrainian/united states pin, and the biggest victim seems to be >> this case was brought simply ukraine. what happens to ukraine funding because it was a case where if you're going to get held up individuals have engaged in a by a group in the house? >> we're going to support pattern and practice of fraud. ukraine. there's overwhelming support within democrats and republicans i will not sit idly by and allow in the senate, and i know the same feeling's in the house. what happens though, they're anyone to subvert the law. lastly, i will not be bullied. scared to come out against that because they're seeing pressure

from the top leader, whether it mr. trump is no longer here. be trump or whoever that's thinking, well, that's not the the donald trump show is over. right thing. >> new york attorney general we should be taking care of letitia james there. ourself. it is 6:00 a.m. on the west s. the democrat haves to come to grips we have to close that border down. coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. we have got to have border security, and i would -- i would implore the president and his joining us is jen psaki, mehdi administration to call a national emergency on the border. we have a crisis, and this hasan, and carol lennox. asylum basically should be put on hiatus for six months or so until we can get an immigration joe, kind of an extraordinary policy that works for our back and forth there yesterday country and also gives people outside the courtroom here in the chance to come here the right way to take care of themselves and their family, but new york city. if you claim the numbers are you got to recognize that -- you can't just say we're blind to lower, that too can be fraud for donald trump. that was an argument he was that, and this is everything, trying to make that it couldn't but ukraine is pay me now and pay me later. we've talked about that. be because he made the numbers if we don't support ukraine now, lower. it's the best investment that we can make to get world peace. meanwhile, the attorney general letitia james being very clear if not, putin continues to move. in her case that donald trump is not above the law, saying the donald trump show is over, at they move and pull it into nato. we're committed at that time to least in new york city. go help our allies. >> some strong statements, also >> i have heard reporting from the trump side there are only 25 bought up race, thank goodness, of the whatever it heard reporte

talking about how he uses that trump side that there are only time and time again. 25 of the republican districts i was sitting here and wondering where people are still exactly what was going on as far supporting the war effort for as what is he trying to do by ukraine. the argument you've just made, going out and screaming and why is it so difficult to sell looking so out of control when that to the american public? he doesn't have to be there. >> which one are you more concerned about? he said, i'm stuck here. are you concerned about the it's a lie. border or ukraine? he's there because he's freaking are you concerned about high out. cost inflation or ukraine. this is the one case even more they start putting it that way than a rape case where the judge and people say, wait a minute, said he committed rape, this is that's second or third on my the one that's freaking him out. list. for world peace and to have a so he's there. who is he playing to? quality of life in this world well, he's playing to other and to have democracy and networks. freedoms and we are the super there is another network on this power of the world because we're morning. willing to defend democracy and what did they do? they played that clip. freedom anywhere in the world. if we walk away from that, they came out and said, well, it's so terrible that he's stuck there and he can't campaign. afghanistan is not a good picture for us. then they played another clip of we can't repeat that. his and they came out, it's just i'm in armed services. awful that he's stuck there. i've been on intel before. he's not stuck there. i understand what will happen. it's a lie. the guy is there because he's i understand the end game is not freaked out for the first time

pretty if we don't stick with them. in any of these court we're increasing the amount of production that we have. proceedings. we've all learned from this >> he's trying to dodge michael cohen's case. unbelievable ground war in this is practice for next year when he's going to have four europe in the 21st century we different trials in places like georgia and d.c. is he going to turn up? never thought would happen. we've learned russia is not that how much? >> we've been talking about mighty might we're concerned those four cases. about. you can't continue to do business with people and the this one sort of snuck up on us defense of your nation. a little bit. >> do you have a plan that >> hits him where it hurts somehow would link up ukraine because it's his business. >> we've known trump for a very funding and border security? because it long time. oh wait, it's about money. what about this two years later? let's see. oh wait, it's about money. it's always about money. this hits at the heart of it. this is the iceberg that strikes the titanic. >> there's money and, of course, race. you have a black, female prosecutor. he's accusing her of being

racist. this week she hit back, pointing out his racism. this is also the week donald trump did an interview where he said immigrants with poisoning the blood of this country. >> say that again. >> he said undocumented immigrants are poisoning the blood of this country, straight up. >> most of history i learned from listening to kevin mccarthy exit speeches on nazi germany, but that sounds straight-up familiar. >> straight up nazi talking points. it's scary times. >> maybe he's afraid. he should be afraid. there's a lot of legal stuff coming toward him. but i also think all of this language and him sitting in that courtroom is because he thinks it politically helps him. think about what a performance this is. this has already been decided that he's a fraudster. he's now being exposed for that.

that was decided by the judge last week. this is just about how much money he owes. him even sitting in that courtroom and coming out and speaking is not about moving the judge. his audience is not the judge. it's his people. he is trying to engage and enrage his people. that's what this is about. >> here's the bite that mehdi made reference to. >> nobody has any idea where these people are coming from. we know they come from prisons and mental institutions, we know they're terrorists. nobody has ever seen anything like what we're witnessing right now. it is a very sad thing for our country. it's poisoning the blood of our country. it's so bad. people are coming in with disease. >> here is the disconnect, all right? not the disconnect from people sitting in an msnbc studio in washington, d.c. this is the disconnect from

republicans, who are small business owners, who own family restaurants that have been half empty for the past three years, not because there's not the demand, but because there's not the workers. the people who want these immigrants in are republicans who own family hardware stores and they can't find workers. these are also from some of the high-tech jobs that fuel our economy. they can't get the immigrants in to do the jobs they need done. this is not about people coming from mental institutions, all the different things he says they are. these are actually people immigrating to this country. i'm conservative. they should come here legally. if you come from pakistan, you should come here legally. if you come from venezuela, you should come here legally. but immigration is something

embraced not only by ronald reagan, but by a lot of republicans right now who are business owners who can't pay their bills because they don't have the workers. >> if you or i or anyone of us could go interview a small business person or a landscaping business person owner in missouri or arkansas or anywhere in this country and talk to them about this, they'd agree with everything you just said. >> a contractor, a roofer, you name it. >> yeah. they'd agree with everything you just said. but raise it into the realm of politics and trumpian maga politics, and that kind of logic goes completely out the window and it's all about revenge and rage and, as he said so ominously in that clip, blood. he's probably too dumb to know that's a nazi reference. >> he knows what he's doing. >> mehdi, you don't seem to be

afraid to blow things up. >> i take that as a compliment. >> rhetorically. for about six months i've gotten really tired of people saying no, no, it's not fascism. you know, you go back and look at what people used to say fascism was, in fascism there's all of this violent talk and imagery and they even use power and violence to overtake governmental institutions. i think post january 6th all those arguments about this isn't fascism have gone out the window. over the past week we've seen him talking about executing a chairman of the giant -- joint chiefs. his number one competitor talking about the day he gets into office he's going to start slitting the throats of federal

employees. paul gosar saying what he was saying. donald trump mocking paul pelosi almost getting killed by a hammer to his head. >> by the guy who believed in maga conspiracy theory. >> and the people in the audience, most disturbingly, were dying laughing over the fact that pelosi had his brains bashed in by a hammer. are we free to say this is approaching a fascist sort of ideology. >> it's not approaching. we're beyond this. i was saying in 2019 this is authoritarianism, this is fascism. people said, calm the hell down. robert paxton, one of this country's leading historians of fascism would say trump is not a fascist. guess what he said on january 6th? i was wrong, he's a fascist. he's straight up channelling

adph hitler. we're at that pnt now where we have to call what we're seeing in front of o eyes what it is. otherwise, we're doing an injustice t our viewers and list listeners. >> he told a right wing website that undocumented immigrants are, quote, poisoning the blood of our country, which is a straight-up white supremacist neo nazi talking point. >> he learned in 2016 that he was not only a politician who could ratchet up the concerns and fears of a portion of america. he can actually juice it, he could inflame it. it was so successful for him for fundraising, for winning. ultimately, he won on the backs of claiming i am going to

protect you from these rapists, these mexicans coming across the border to kill your children. >> even when he was president of the united states, he was using the old trope, go back where you came from to women who were members of congress born here. >> think about how much the ground has shifted on all so forths of republican talking points. who would have thought that today we would hear republicans describing how the department of justice needs to be dismantled. pro law enforcement was the kingpin of the republican platform. attacking fbi agents for doing their job of investigating crimes, pro russia, who would have thought republicans would be talking about how smart and together vladimir putin is? who would have thought we would be describing immigrants in the way we are? when you compare it to george

h.w. bush insisting we cannot treat immigrants as guilty people who have snuck in. we've got to embrace them and make them a beautiful part of this country. >> i always bring up ronald reagan on immigration for these people who claim reagan is a hero. his final speech said, when we stop allowing immigrants into this country, we become old, tired tired, weaker. why did i become a republican? why did i become a conservative from a party of democrats? it was a reaction to a lot of what my family saw as the radicalism of the 1960s, whether it was chicago, the craziness,

hippies running in the street, people burning their draft cards. they were tearing down the very institutions. they were attacking the justice department. they were attacking the fbi. of course, they were attacking all the institutions. they were taking over campus offices. that was just radical. they were tearing down the very institutions that my parents believed made this country great. so here we are 50 years later and this is the great irony. republicans are attacking our colleges and universities by any measure. they're attacking the military as weak and woke, by any measure the most powerful military on the planet. they're attacking the u.s. economy, oh, it's so weak, by any measure. the most powerful and the

strongest on the planet, a generational high. foreign investment flooding into this country right now. so they're attacking institutions at a time when america is stronger on the world stage. >> they want to disband the fbi. i still can't believe it sometimes when i hear them say it. >> defund the fbi. >> also, it's extending into virtually every aspect, institution and crevice of american life. we ran a story in the "new republic" a couple of issues ago about this movement on the right to make a separate economy

because too many coffee companies sell "woke" coffee. they want their own coffee and catsup. >> this is the insanity of it. when people used to go crazy over tort reform, we said, let the market decide. these companies are not being woke, because they want to feel better about themselves. they are greedy, corporate, american, capitalists. i salute them. who's the dude on wall street that michael douglas played? >> greed is good. >> i will be gordon gekko. they're doing their job. who are the people who should know this, so-called conservatives. we don't like target because, we

don't like the nfl because. no, the nfl is doing it for a reason, because younger americans don't think like baby boomers. they are more progressive when it comes to lgbtq rights and social justice. they are more progressive when it comes to all these other issues. they're not worried about what a 74-year-old person in cape canaveral is thinking right now. this is just marketing. i love cape canaveral. they're interested as corporations what they're always interested in. they want brand identity. they want brand loyalty. these republicans whining about woke, these ceos are just doing what ceos do.

i'm enough of a populist to say they don't have a moral compass in that position. the bottom line is how much money are you bringing in and where's the stock? >> 100,000% that is true. they remain obsessed with this woke argument. i want to touch on something, which is where the direction of things have gone with the party. it's important to remember this is not just about attacking institutions. this is about destroying institutions, this is the entire point, burning the building down, burning down congress, eliminating law enforcement, eliminating the department of justice. >> trashing colleges and universities. >> it's not a policy disagreement. there are many policy disagreements. i've done many, many campaigns. this is about destroying the fundamental institutions of the country. the scarier level of this to me is not just about what these people say from the safety of the house floor or donald trump says outside of the courtroom. it's that they are giving

license to other people and their supporters to echo this and act on it. there was some frightening interviews nbc did on the ground in iowa with people who echoed that milley should be executed. you know why? because donald trump says it. >> when i call it out, people say, what's wrong with that? he committed treason. he wanted to destroy the institution so that a strong man emerges in a country with weak institutions. you look at places like hungary or russia, which didn't really have strong institutions to begin with. we have strong institutions,so you have to first delegitimate delegitimateize the institutions. >> he regulated them out of existence. he taxed them out of existence. orban said i'll buy your country for a penny are on the dollar. >> or putin. >> or throw you in jail. your decision. >> or putin, who by the way -- i

think peter baker had this in his story today. he's thrilled about what's happening in the house, tickled pink about it. >> putin had a multimillion dollar operation to destroy our institutions in 2016, a social media company to sow discord and chaos. it's exactly what he wanted. >> yesterday was a great day for vladimir putin. >> don't you think it's interesting that every single person that donald trump wanted to meet on his first few days in office were the strong men? i mean, he loved orban. >> don't you think it's very interesting that the people that were voting to throw the house into chaos are against ukraine funding? no conspiracy theories here. i'm just saying it was a great day for putin for several reasons. one, they once again undermined an american institution and, two, they make it far less

likely ukraine gets funding moving forward. >> to jen's point, once from the safety of your wonderful hideaway in the house, once you blow up these institutions, what will you be left with? will you really like the result? as they all scramble for a speaker right now, i wonder how are they going to make laws and actually fulfill the definition of their job of lawmaker? i haven't seen them make a law. >> mccarthy himself said they're trying to burn it all down. really? you just noticed? the entire last two weeks has been that meme about i didn't know the leopard would eat my face, says the woman who voted for the leopards eating faces party. you created these people. >> conservative that i am, i read and believe and follow people like edmond burke. he said it could take a day to tear down an institution that it

took a century to build. that's exactly what's happening by these people who have no idea what being a real conservative is about. >> no idea. it really scares me, joe, when i think about whether the american people are going to cotton onto this by next november. i kind of think so. i still have that faith most days that your swing voters in the handful of states who decide these elections are going to see this. democrats have to make it real. joe biden has given those four speeches about democracy and god bless him for giving them, but i think he needs to give a lot more. all of us around this table fear literally if trump wins this election, it may be the last one for a while. we have to convince americans of that. >> convince joe's previous guest not to run as a spoiler. >> i have been interviewing a lot of former justice employees

and former leaders of the white house, who basically say, if this person is elected, get ready for a host of yes-men to come into every

line, to ruin basically everything that's been built. to use a phrase of your party, it's a republic if you can keep it. it doesn't look like we can keep it in these situations. >> thank you for saying that i'm

in benjamin franklin's party. i don't know what that party was, but i will take it. [ laughter ] >> you have an event next week in new york. >> the new republic is having a stop trump summit at cooper union. go to tnr.com/events to get a ticket. it's going to be a great day. thank you. >> michael's new piece is online for the new republic. it's titled, rejoice, america, these trialed should bring donald trump to ruin. mehdi, thank you so much. it's great to be in the same place with you. >> next we'll do it in cape canaveral. >> i'm big there. we'll be watching you on sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. carol lennox, thank you very much for your reporting. come back soon. >> you're on fire. i'll be here any time. coming up next on "morning

joe," we'll be joined by an ally of former speaker kevin mccarthy, republican congressman garrett graves is standing by. we'll talk to him about the chaos as house republicans look to elect a new leader next week. to elect a new leader next week.

with the freestyle libre 2 system, know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us sell to your customers anywhere, with shopify, the commerce platform designed for entrepreneurs. online, on social, in person and on the go. get the tools you need to sell the way you want, powered by shopify. ♪ with wet amd, sometimes i worry my world is getting smaller because of my sight.

but now, i can open up my world with vabysmo. vabysmo is the first fda-approved treatment for people with wet amd that improves vision and delivers a chance for up to 4 months between treatments. which means doing more of what i love. ♪ vabysmo is the only treatment designed to block 2 causes of wet amd. vabysmo is an eye injection. don't take it if you have an infection or active swelling in or around your eye, or are allergic to it or any of its ingredients. treatments like vabysmo can cause eye infection or retinal detachment. vabysmo may cause a temporary increase in eye pressure after receiving the injection. although uncommon, there is a potential risk of heart attack or stroke associated with blood clots. open up your world! a chance for up to 4 months between treatments with vabysmo. ask your doctor. my dry eye's made me a burning, stinging, 5-times-a-day,... ...makeup smearing drops user.

i want another option that's not another drop. tyrvaya. it's not another drop. it's the first and only nasal spray for dry eye. tyrvaya treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease fast by helping your body produce its own real tears. common side effects include sneezing, cough, and throat and nose irritation. relying only on drops? not me. my own real tears are my relief. ask your eye doctor about tyrvaya.

i think, unfortunately, you know, some of them were useful idiots in this crusade on matt gaetz's part. it was petty, it was personal. it really, again, undermined the conference and the institution. unfortunately, these eight individuals torpedoed the conference, took out our best player on the field, if you will, and created a constitutional crisis. >> that is republican

congressman mike lawlor of new york criticizing the members of his party who voted to remove kevin mccarthy as speaker. joining us now is garrett graves of louisiana. >> look at that. oh look, give me money, i filed a motion to vacate. using official actions to raise money, it's disgusting! >> congressman, good morning. great to have you on the show. obviously we know how you feel about it there, that it was a fundraising, brand-building, attention-grabbing move by these eight republicans. how do you explain how we got to this place? does it go back to that 15th vote back in january where speaker mccarthy had to agree to the one member that could raise the motion to vacate the chair? >> look, something that's important to keep in mind is that had been the rule in the house for over 100 years. it was nancy pelosi who changed it. i think what's happened in more

recent history is that members have become more bombastic, more provocative, egged on as a result of some of the distorted incentives through social media and, as i noted on the house floor, through fundraising objectives. >> you talked about this caucus meeting. you said if we stayed in there a couple minutes longer, this may have been a fistfight in there. i don't think you were kidding about that. can you share what it was like in those final moments as you tried to save speaker mccarthy's job? >> let me put this in a perspective that maybe is a little more digestible for some folks watching. this would be like sean hannity, tucker carlson and donald trump getting together with aoc, talib and whoever else is on the squad and them coming up with a plan to impeach joe biden and the squad and all the republicans voting to impeach. that's effectively what just

happened. that was sort of a compliment to matt gaetz, but in any case that's sort of what just happened. you're left with vice president harris as the president of the united states, and of course all the democrats want to strangle figuratively aoc and the squad. that's kind of just what happened. the tension was so strong. keep in mind what happened a couple of days ago is matt gaetz and seven so-called republicans got together with 208 democrats and threw the leader of the republican party out, someone that we viewed as being one of the most successful leaders that we've had in recent history. >> so, congressman, good morning. there's been a lot of uproar from democrats that former speaker pelosi, representative hoyer were booted out of their longtime capital hideaway offices. what was the reasoning behind this decision? why did republicans do that? >> look, i think that there's a little bit of a misunderstanding

in that there is an office for the preceding speaker. as a result of folks like nancy pelosi supporting the ouster of mccarthy, they have created a new preceding speaker. effectively, she evicted herself. >> joe scarborough here. you suggested that the squad was about the same as the five or six people that ousted mccarthy. nancy pelosi had about a five-vote majority, still got things done. why do you think it is that democrats and nancy pelosi were able to keep the house in order and republicans weren't? >> you know, joe, it is a fantastic question. you obviously understand this intimately from your service in the congress. it's a characteristic of the ideology where democrats bond together much more. i think they're used to having a

little bit more centralized leadership representing urban areas and more dependence on government. you are intimately aware of the lone ranger status and the give me liberty or give me death perspective of many republicans. that's where you have that tension in that republicans don't want to be told what to do, don't want to be centralized. it really is sort of a characteristic or a tendency of many republicans or conservatives that really is at odds with this whole concept of a central leader. last thing is, something kevin mccarthy said a lot that i think is really poignant in this case. he didn't hire and he can't fire any of the members he's supposed to be leading. it really creates a challenge management structure. once again, it's more characteristic of republican ideology to be more independent. >> is kevin mccarthy an effective leader? is kevin's biggest problem that the guy couldn't be trusted by

members, whether democrats or republicans? >> i think that the biggest problem and probably to do a better job answering willie's question earlier is that matt gaetz hated mccarthy from the beginning. keep in mind he never voted for mccarthy. in fact, the majority of people that voted republican voted to oust him never voted for him for speaker. matt gaetz was so mad that he lost that battle back in january. he was telling everyone that mccarthy was never going to be speaker. matt gaetz lost and he never got over it, so he continued trying to oust mccarthy. look, the other part you asked, was he an effective leader? i think he was an incredible leader. look what happened in debt ceiling negotiations, the largest savings in american history negotiated. president biden was really forced to sign it. i remember at one point in negotiations, senior white house officials looking across the

table and saying, quote, there's not a damn thing in here for democrats. nope, there's not. i think that's indicative of mccarthy's leadership and also the d.c. crime bill, ending covid emergency and other things. he did that under a very tight majority, only having one-half of one branch of the three branches of government. i think he did an extraordinary job. >> congressman, i quoted the father of conservatism edmund burke in the last segment. he was reflecting on the revolution in france and the chaos that radicalism brought, but he said that we all need to be very careful about tearing down institutions, because we can tear down an institution in a day that took a century to build up. how conservative is it to tear down an institution in a day and while you're tearing down that institution sending out

fundraising letters telling people, hey, look at me, i'm tearing down the people's house, i'm tearing down an institution that is at the epicenter of freedom across the globe, i'm tearing down a place that has had a big role in feeding and freeing more people than any other governing body in the history of humankind. but i'm sending out a fund raising letter now to brag about the fact that i'm leaving this house of representatives, the people's house without a speaker for the first time in history. how does that make you feel? >> i think it's absolutely disgusting. i think people should be imprisoned for actions like that. it hasn't stopped. matt gaetz has continued to send out fundraising pleas claiming he's under attack. these are self-inflicted wounds that he caused himself.

i think it's absolutely disgusting. whether you quote edmund burke or george washington's farewell address or abraham lincoln's house divided, this is not the united states. one of the reasons people continue investing in the united states is because we have a stable regulatory, a stable legal climate. what matt gaetz just did is he blew that up, he created instability in an already challenging economy and divisive country. this was the wrong move. it was in credibly selfish. the guy needs money like he needs a hole in his head. this is as swampy as it gets. it was all done for ego, for selfish reasons. yes, you're exactly right, this divides our house, this destroys democracy and stability and it was obviously for the wrong intentions or motives. >> congressman, i can tell you this isn't playing very well in the cheap seats around the world

as they watch what's happening here in washington and try to look at america as an inspiration for stable document and solid democracy. isn't it a bit easy to say this is just the personalities of matt gaetz and kevin mccarthy? isn't this a situation you've got on the right of the republican party at the moment where the whole purpose of that group is to disrupt government? we heard donald trump say he wanted the dismantlement of the administrative state. replace matt gaetz or kevin mccarthy with somebody else and you could still have this situation again. >> i think you raise a great point, which is why i think it would be a fundamental mistake for republicans to come in and simply have each member of the leadership take one step up the ladder. i think we really need to take a step back. keep in mind we evicted the last three leaders of the republican party. before we even think about electing the next speaker, we need to think more carefully about the structure, about the

rules related to being speaker of the house, being in leadership and trying to create more stability to not allow for these folks like matt gaetz to go out there and carry out actions that are so chaotic and disruptive for very selfish reasons. we need to be more thoughtful about stability and ensuring that the rules allow or provide for that. >> republican congressman garrett graves of louisiana, we thank you so much for being with us this morning. we really appreciate it. >> thank you all. have a good day. coming up, a love story that took 50 years to tell involving john lennon and yoko ono's personal assistant. we hear a firsthand account of a woman who details her 18-month relationship with the beatles star. in beatles history, this is like a big chapter. we'll tell you about that. much more when we return. you a. much more when we return

i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms.

with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some. it can stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. done settling? ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save.

john decided we should move in together. we ended up finding the perfect apartment. ♪♪ >> can you imagine, i was 23 and my first live-in boyfriend was john lennon. we took the bedroom and we fixed up the guest room for julian. >> it was an absolute joy and a pleasure. it was just dad and may and that was happy, happy time. especially in some of the photographs you can see that may took of us, of dad and i together. >> there was a clip of the documentary "the lost weekend, a love story" which gives viewers an inside look into john lennon's love life with his former assistant may pang. yoko allegedly encouraged pang

to start dating him. the film details the 18-month relationship. the film's subject and narrator joins us now. thank you so much for being with us, may. as i was explaining while we were teasing the segment, this is actually john lennon's lost weekend is actually a big part of his life. any beatles fan will talk about it and also talk about you. how did it all come about? >> well, it just happened one day. i was talking to eve branstein, one of the filmmakers there. show just happened to tell me, oh, i'm working on different things. i turned around when she said i'm working on a documentary and i decided i wanted to identity and there it was. that's how it started. >> jen. >> six years ago, seven years ago. >> may, i'm so curious. i have not obviously read this yet. i'm looking forward to it.

there's so much known about john lennon and the beatles. so many of us still love them so much. what do you think people misunderstand about him out there? >> i think they forget that he was human. he had frailties like everybody else. he had ups and downs. he could get depressed, he could be happy. you know, they forget he was just a person like you and me. >> may, i have a far more salacious question. you're working for john lennon and yoko ono. you're the personal assistant. their marriage runs into trouble. and yoko comes to you and says, what, will you take john off my hands a little bit? >> no, that did not happen that way. it was a little bit more than that. she came into the office and she said, listen, john and i are not getting along, and he's going to start seeing other people. in my head, i'm thinking, oh,

now we have another person in the x factor here. she turns to me, oh by the way, i know you don't have a boyfriend, maybe you should go out with john. i said, you're not talking about me, i'm not interested. she said, i think you would be kind to him. i think you should go out with him. and she gets up and walks out of the office. >> that sounds almost like a direct order. it was so nice to see julian talking lovingly about that time. we usually hear about the lost weekend being a very dark time for john lennon with drugs, alcohol, nasty self-destructive streak, especially on the west coast. but there seems to be a loving side of that as well. again, julian, who had sort of

been separated from him for a long time, looks like julian really appreciated that time that you all were together. >> you know, i thought that it was time that when they got together, that it should be a fun, loving one. it had been over three years when he was living in new york that he hasn't seen his son. when it was decided he should be coming, i thought it was a good time. cynthia accompanied him. it gave twofold, one, that he got together with julian again and, second, that i gave closure, gave john and cynthia their closure of their relationship which they never got. >> did you feel like he got it with cynthia, his first wife? >> absolutely. she was very appreciative of the time that she was able to spend, because all of a sudden after that, it was easy for him to speak to cynthia without cynthia without feeling i don't

want to speak to her, and all these apprehensions, you know, it made life easier for him, for julian as well. >> the film is filled with so many interesting intimate stories about your time with john lennon, including one moment of serendipity involving john and paul. let's take a look. >> a guy in new york that all the englishmen say hi to, which is good. paul's in town, anybody comes i love it. >> paul mccartney say come over to our house and ringo and george. funny bit, trying to get in touch with paul and linda for dinner. we didn't reach them. we left them a message and as we're coming up 61st street in a cab, we look over in the other cab and it's paul and linda. and all of a sudden we yell out and the two beatles stick their heads out and are screaming at one another, i'll talk to you layer. it was wild to see that. >> wild to see that. also really quickly, it's so

interesting that beatle fans thought throughout the early '70s that john and paul hated each other. of course their interviews they would say the nastiest things about each other starting with the whole let it be sessions but we get to see during "get back" when the movie came on, you looked at those two and you thought through the separation of 50 years, oh, my god, they loved each other so much. you know, behind all the business problems, there was still a deep love between paul and john, it was really beautiful. >> it was great because they definitely -- they could say to each other all the nasty things, but nobody else can because they all considered themselves brothers. so i think everybody who has siblings, they all know what that is like, and that's exactly the way it was. we never had any problems when they came over, and they were visitors all the time at our place in new york city, all the time.

>> the documentary "the lost weekend: a love story" is now available on most major video on demand platforms and blu-ray, and that begins october 13th. thank you so much. greatly appreciate you being here. >> thank you for having me. i know john would have loved to have been on this show. >> thanks so much. greatly appreciate it. a harrowing true story of a missing daughter, a violent cartel and a mother's quest for vengeance. we'll explain that next on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds.

♪♪ alex! mateo, hey how's business? great. you know that loan has really worked wonders. that's what u.s. bank is for. and you're growing in california? -yup, socal, norcal... -monterey? -all day. -a branch in ventura? that's for sure-ah. atms in fresno? fres-yes. encinitas? yes, indeed-us. anaheim? big time. more guacamole? i'm on a roll-ay. how about you? i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power.

just a word." the author and "new york times" international investigative correspondent joins us now. conducted more than 100 interviews and obtained more than 20,000 pages of classified case files to write the book. tell us more about the steer ri of miriam. we hear lots of stories of violence and people getting abducted in mexico. what was it about this particular story that captured your attention?

>> the story was so heartbreaking and her journey was so riveting. it became a symbol for almost all the others, 100,000 missing and 350,000 dead. i remember i was in the middle of another project and i saw in a mexican newspaper about a mother who had been killed by a cartel for looking for the people who had kidnapped and killed her daughter. and i thought that can't be true. there's no way that actually happened. i tabled that and got back to it a year later and i went up and visited with the family and started to hear more and more how she would wear disguises, carry a weapon with her, or how she would break into people's houses. the more i found out, the more i realized the story was about a bigger story, which is what's happening in mexico. why has mexico become synonymous about cartel violence. i think so often we frame the discussion around cartels from a u.s. perspective, and yet, it's -- the people living on the

front line of it in mexico have a very different experience. this was an opportunity to go beyond the headlines, the normalizing statistics that everybody kind of knows to tell the story of a mother's love and what she was willing to do when her daughter was taken from her and when there was no state response whatsoever. >> so i mean, your story is kind of one that tells a bigger story. tell this particular story and why cartels are taking children. why did they take this girl? >> this is as dark as it is practical for them. it's fund-raising. they want money. there's nothing more precious to a parent than their child. you pay what you have to pay. in this particular situation, her family paid the ransom, paid another ransom and a third ransom and they still did not get karen back. that's when she almost broke from love and decided i'm going after these people with whatever life i have left, i'm going to make them pay. i'm going to find those people

responsible. it was an allegory in some ways for all the others who have disappeared. miriam herself became an activist representing other families of the disappeared, bringing their cases to the government, forcing them to deal with it. her story in many ways was emblematic. it was also distinct. she did the thing that very few people with willing to do in a landscape of violence and fear, she was willing to stand up and pursue her own course of justice. >> in every country in the world people will do whatever they can to rescue their children. "new york times" international investigative correspondent azem ahmed, thank you for joining us. >> final thoughts, what a week it's been. any thoughts going into the weekend? >> look, i think having senator manchin on was great this week. >> by the way, i'm so tired that by thursday i start to wear down. >> now that i say it, maybe i will take tomorrow off. so what are you thinking about? >> i'm thinking that a four-day

week is a very good one, joe. >> i like that. >> yeah, all these business studies saying companies in the uk are saying you can do as much in four days as five days. >> it seems like a very french -- >> what about you, what's your takeaway today? >> this week has been a massive cluster, but i think next week could be worse, not to be too dark. >> oh, thanks. >> we're hear to real talk. they have the vote to decide who they're going to nominate. ukraine funding, that seems nearly impossible to get going currently, and also the government is going to shut down in 40 days. so there's that. i'm just real talking here with a smile. >> we got a minute so i can ask you this tough question. why are democrats doing so horribly on the issues? you look at the issues, gallop poll out this week. it's historic. this is almost like reagan carter days, democrats upside down on one issue after another, why? >> part of it is i think more

contrast needs to be drawn by more democrats out there. it's not yet the campaign season, but it sort of needs to be. this is from the president on down, and a lot of democrats kind of play nice and are a little classier than you see on the other side in terms of what they say publicly, and there needs to be a little bit more punching back at the bully and drawing a contrast of what the stakes are. >> a lot of nervous democrats, a lot of nervous people over these polls. >> they're going to have to do -- on the economy, the border, joe biden's age, ukraine, all of those things are going to need better messaging. if they don't think they're in the general election campaign, they haven't noticed what's happening on the republican side. it's stopping. >> i think it's not playing like it is quite yet, but it needs to. >> it needs to. >> that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," the fight to leave the house. early candidates emerging in the

mad scramble to be the next speaker. can anyone unite house republicans as tensions among them boil over? >> but put yourself in his reality, which is that republicans continue to stone wall him, the government was about to shut down. you're in that position,ha