about how far israel should go in response, and that is going to land right in the middle of this conference. and i think that will change the debate and the optics, and that's when the pressure will rise on -- to hold that line. and also, how does it going to do with people disagree with? it >> i will say the leadership seems to be indecisive. how is that going to fly on the floor of the conference? >> look, i think this sort of complexion of the labour party has changed a lot. when you think back to when we were gathering here in liverpool under jeremy corbyn, it was a very different type of conference. our panelists alluded to, the leadership have been so quick off the mark. contrasting jeremy corbyn's tweet yesterday compared with what senior figures like david lin e were sane. do you distance yourself? he said absolutely, this is -- you are right that there will be some people here that will have some sympathy for what

jeremy corbyn says. but i think they will get picked pretty short shrift from the leadership. they're watching people like a hawk on this. >> can we come back to you in just a moment, but it is just after 9:00. you are watching sunday morning with trevor phillips. in the last hour, israel's ambassador to united kingdom has told this program that israel is at war. she says that one of britain is in gaza as attacks continue. here in liverpool at the labor conference, the party's health secretary west reading said he unequivocally condemned the action by hamas. he and as we are on top of the hour, let's get the very latest on the situation in the middle east now. and we're going live to our own international affairs editor, dominic waghorn. he's in the southern israeli city of -- dominic, what is the latest where you are?

>> well the, latest here travelers were just north of gaza. what we're hearing here is quite a lot of big israeli gardens, firing shells and gaza in response to attacks that hamas launched on the city and others. they hit a medical center here overnight. after the patients have been moved from there, fortunately. but also hit a residential area as well. i think more worrying for the israelis as what's happening to the east of, here south east of here, installed's, and berry, and these towns on the out skirts. deep into israel, 15 miles or. so in those towns, we understand that the palestinian militants are still holding hostages and patrolling the streets. more than 24 hours into this operation, the hamas still controls part of israel, which is an unprecedented situation for these rallies, and an extraordinary challenge to the israeli military. they say they are confident they can deal with that threat, they are now launching air offensive, artillery strikes,

fighter jet attacks on hamas targets in gaza. and they say a ground operation is imminent. that we see in israel explaining these kinds of attacks to deal with the palestinian threat in the past, but they now very different and way to deal with, an enemy that's proven itself to be an effective fighting force that can erupt from gaza and break through the fence and in multiple places, launch attacks on israeli civilians and soldiers dancing on israeli tactics. extraordinary pitches we've seen, and now melting back into gaza, most of them and taking with them scores of israeli hostages. that's a big challenge for netanyahu in his command of the ponderous what to do next. how do you go on to deal with the homeless threat while they're holding so many israelis hostage? in unprecedented situation. the israeli government has never dealt with this in their history. >> dominic, thank you very much. we'll be hearing from you through the day, i think.

stay safe. now, let's hear from the government. i can speak to the transport secretary, mark harper. good morning mr. harper. >> good morning, trevor. >> many of our viewers will have relatives in israel. what can you tell us about the safety of british citizens in israel right now? we've already heard from the israeli ambassador that at least one british citizen is in gaza. >> first of all, let me just say, we've all been horrified by the barbaric scenes that we saw with hamas is indiscriminate attack yesterday. and we are unequivocal-y in support of the state of israel as they deal with that threat. and they have the absolute right to defend themselves. on the subject of british citizens, we are obviously working very closely and have been in contact with the israeli government about any

british citizens in israel. will obviously continue to work with them, and get information to work with their families back here in the united kingdom. >> is there travel advice that you need to give to the public? >> yes, i'm not going to give it here on air. i would refer people to the foreign office website on gave uk because that information is kept up to date and up to the minute based on the latest position. and of course, my department is working closely with airlines that fly to israel, working with the israeli government on the position there, to make sure we keep people safe. >> thank you. could we turn to your own responsibilities as transport secretary now? he last week, your leader spoke several times about long term decision-making, which to most people would imply some kind of bipartisan agreement.

on for example, a chance to? what would you like to hear from -- this week? >> on many subjects, but including on a chest, who it would be nice if the labour party had the same position one day to the next. we made our position very clear last week. the prime minister is set out why we had changed our position on a chance to, which is because the facts have changed. cost of the project i have gone up significantly. and the benefits of reduced partly because of the change in travel habits. we're taking every penny that we've saved and we are reinvesting that in other transport infrastructure across the country, in the north, in the midlands, and elsewhere to projects which actually we think better fit what is needed. >> i'd like to come back to that, but i asked you what you like to hear from -- . if i may say so, i don't think it's the best invitation to the opposition party to join you in an enterprise to start by

telling them that they're flip-flopping. isn't there an invitation here to join you in a common cause? >> look, -- has had multiple different positions on a chance to, and i listen carefully to what the leaders said yesterday. she had a different position saying that she wanted to carry on building a chance to. we've set of opposition clearly, which is that we want to take every penny that we're saving and reinvested in the transport projects. it's for others to decide what they want to do. if they don't agree with, us and they want to carry on building a second phase of agents to, with and they need to tell people whether they want to cancel those other transport projects. look, i would urge everyone to do what we've done, which is to put the national interest first, to make the decision that we have, we think that's the right decision for the future. we look forward to campaigning on that in the general election, to winning that election, and delivering on those commitments. >> all right, well let's test

your claim to clarity here. you've launched this idea of a new net worth north that supposed to soak up this 36 billion quip that you freed. if i can just ask you quickly for some yeses and noes on some things, is the bradford station going to be built? >> yes, it is. we were very clear about the promise to bradford, 2 million pounds for the station. i was in bradford yesterday. the labor leader of the council, and they welcomed our commitment to that investment in bradford. >> that is agra bleak clear. let me ask another one. you said last week it was going to happen. euros minister said since, you are just looking into it. who is right? >> what we're doing is we're going to develop a vince case for that, but we've made a big commitment to the northeast

elected mayor for a significant amount of money. i think 1.8 billion pounds. and it will be for them to decide how they spend that money, and they obviously have many sidelines, one of their priorities in the incumbent position said that our last week. >> that's an amber on that one. let me ask you a third one. is the houston station going to be billed even if there is no private money? >> we've been very clear. we want to get used in build. we're gonna take away the delivery of the station from hst-limited. we think it's much better if we have a more ambitious development plan for used in. have a development corporation to build thousands more houses. more business development, and also private investments -- >> are you going to guarantee that is going to be built? >> we think -- >> are you guaranteeing that's gonna be dealt? >> we've just demonstrated with

the development of -- we've got nine billion pounds of investment into that scheme, including to develop the extensions to the underground. we think that's the right model to save the taxpayer money and deliver public infrastructure. >> okay, you see why i'm about bothered by this year. you're very clear on your first answer, but your second answer is, depends on what -- thanks. your third answer is like we've done something like this before, but you can see why people are bit anxious about. it you announced that the manchester metro extension, which by the way had already been billed. you announced contactless take again. -- the point i'm really making here -- >> the manchester airport extension is an extension. it only goes to one terminal, it's now going to go to the next terminal. so that's actually a new project. >> it's an ad on?

but you see what i'm saying. on all of these things, there's a level of ambiguity, which you want from your opponents, but you are not necessarily delivering yourself. >> no, i don't think there's anything ambiguous at. all we take every penny of the savings from a chance to, 36 million pounds. and we set up how it's going to be spent in parts of the country where a chest who is going to be spent. so most of, it two thirds going to the north, ten billion pounds going the midlands, and the same thing for getting private -- in the country and happy to be judged on it. >> the one question, that the prime minister didn't quite answer in a speech last week. he said he took his decision because the facts had changed. on july the 17th, you tweeted that a chance to would connect our largest cities that must include manchester in birmingham ton, because they're the third or second, and it would create tens of thousands

of jobs. he said that on july 17th. what actually happened in 11 weeks between july 17th and last week? what facts changed? >> two things. first of all we are committed to delivering a chance to frame -- that's a huge project. huge amounts of public money to deliver a big capacity increase and it will still take 30 minutes off their journey time between london used in and -- first of all, we're still building. that second, the second point is that we are seeing increased costs pressures on delivering a chance to. and the decision for the prime minister and myself was whether we wanted to sign up to those increased -- >> you knew all that in july? >> whether was right to reinvest it. there is been an increase -- >> did you not know that in july? that there is a vast overrun in

july? >> we did. but we've had further were done by the company that at some point you have to say, do we continue spending more money on a project where the benefits of reduced because of different ways people now travel? business and commuter traffic is down by half, for example, on the runways. commuter traffic -- >> forgive me, we have heard that. >> you made that decision. >> forgive me, we are running out of time. but it seems to me that it was and the facts that changed. it was your mind that changed. there is no dishonor insane that. you knew all of this in july. you just changed your mind. why not say that? >> well, look, the pressure is on the finances have actually changed over the summer. and we've looked at the facts, we work through all this information. and when the facts change, you make a different position. >> mark harbor, thank you so much for your time this morning.

>> thanks very much, trevor. thank you. >> but now, let's go back to our panel. jackie smith and mcallen lawyer and aisha's are r.i.c.o.. that was interesting. what do you make of that? >> it's quite a hard gig for mark harbour on a sunday morning. it is his job. what is hard for him to explain is why there was no kind of obvious road to this reversal, even a few weeks ago, as you are pressing him in your mischievous way. -- >> ma? mischievous. >> that is difficult to explain. i think the other thing that is unclear is they euston development. it might sound like a bit of a london story, but in fact, it's very big. anything that slows from, it the purchases that followed from that decision to have this

real huge commitment, and it was a big commitment, which is why they were behind. that you saw david cameron come out this way very angry with rishi sunak for backing off of. it you don't do a big hole on the ground, the cause of a disruption, now you change your mind. there has been such a big cost overrun, that it was known previously. and i think how the conservatives have been thinking more clearly, and they would've graded road to this decision. they would've sent out more signals earlier rather than pulling the plug in this messy way that happened last week. >> the whole thing was extraordinary. we were all in manchester last week. the idea that this, that this story was running for about 15, 16 days. they end up bungling this announcement. you have anti -- impromptu press conference. all this is done in an old railway station. you couldn't make it up. but in terms of the politics, i think you have his right. if -- that said to people look, i've looked at the costs, i'm making a strong choice now.

instead, it's all drips and drabs and then coming out and the politics of, this is they are big attack line against him is that you are really bad person for a change in your mind. cut to the biggest u-turn. let's be honest, the biggest flagship infrastructure project of the conservative administration. so i think they have completely blended this argument about you turns in flip-flops. >> jackie, you've had the experience of being a minister, having this come out on sunday morning then do this. do you feel a bit of sympathy for mark? >> as you, say it's his job. yes i feel squeak of sympathy, but they've got themselves into this mess, frankly. and let's not forget this week in liverpool, we'll be talking to an extent about which countries broken and how they want to build it. there's no better sign of that if you travel the trains between the west midlands and london, as i frequently do.

get booted off early. the trains are running late. the capacity isn't there. what's the opportunity, decided of course under the last labor government, supported up to this point by this government, to actually build some of the infrastructure that other countries take for granted and we need in this country? >> jackie, let me take you on to the interview. you are now the chair of a big health authority. this overtime proposal, two billion pound reform in a 200 billion pound a year budget. it feels, sorry, it's one billion for the overtime. it's even less. it feels to me a bit like he's coming to a knife fight with a plastic picnic spoon. >> well, you push them rightly on the challenges of workforce, which is one of the main concerns that we have in the nhs at the moment, although we

have of course pushed the government on the workforce plan and put some money behind expanding the nhs workforce. but the other area that this is all focused on is absolutely the right place, which is the nhs is under invested in terms of its technology, its digital capacity, its beds to an extent. but this focus on improving the diagnostic capacity in the nhs is exactly right -- >> it completely makes sense, and we could talk forever about the prevention, but realistically, you are chair of a health authority. are you going to be able to say to people, by the way, we have a lovely new scanning machine, the only problem is we need you to work an extra five hours a week? >> of course that's a trial in. because before even get to that point, we have to try to get control of the way things have room to gain because of the industrial action that we're currently facing. i think that it they made a

fair point, that we do, of course, in the nhs, have a bank system in which our staff are able to provide extra work. he's focusing on the right area. workforce is the challenge, but there's investment going in there as well. >> could he do it? >> i think he's showing that he is trying to dealing with the figures, and it's a bit of an elastic way, as you're suggesting. but i think what he has to start doing is looking that labor could come in -- >> do these things, but where i do think he's on to something is that even though the sharp end of it, you are nina health -- you can question whether this is doable. but i think is stop speaking generalities but the nhs to lose the kind of sacred cow around it, and start saying, here is the money, we get to put towards the workforce flexibility. it's easy to say it's not enough. it's never going to be enough. but at the moment, i think what's treating is leading the argument about health care reform, and that's quite interesting, given it was

really conservative issue. i do think that actually having a reasonable time on that is going to come under pressure on the figures. >> more chat for a little later. coming up, i'm going to be speaking to sharon graham. she's the boss of labor's biggest union, at donor united. the problem is she doesn't seem that impressed by the labor party's leadership. >> i'm going to keep labor's feet to the fire. of course i want to labor government. i absolutely want to labor government, of course. but i want to labor government that's going to make real change peoples lives. and i think, at the moment, labor's been too timid.

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this is sunday morning with trevor phillips. now, it wouldn't be a labor conference without some internal battles. but with the parties seemingly set for government, the mood is

buoyant as you'd expect. some though, think krista might be playing it a bit safe. as we arrive in liverpool, i was joined by sharon graham, the general secretary of unite, the country's biggest union. sharon graham, this weekend you've accused the labor leadership of miserable managerial-ism. is that anything that they could save or do that would convince you that a government wouldn't be just warmed over blair-ism? >> i'm the leader of -- were not a branch of the labour party. i run a union. and my absolute fundamental job when i wake up in the morning is deliver for working people. and so, if it's uncomfortable for me to be raising issue like the renationalization and aegean's deal oil and gas, then i'm not embarrassed by that because that's my job to do it. i've got to keep labor's feet to the fire of. course i want to labor government. i absolutely want to labor government. but i want a liberal government

that's going to make real change peoples lives, and i think, at the moment, labor being too timid. >> i want to come to all those points, but one of those things that you said both in the article that you wrote this weekend and one that you wrote a month ago you questioned whether labor, what side is labor on? here in conference center, were full of corporates. there are more corporates stands here than there were at the tory party conference. are you sure labor is on the side of working people still,? >> i want them to be more on the side. we've just had 13 years of tory rule, and it's been abhorrent for people, people just existing. i want labor to come in and back their workers and their communities. we've had 13 years of tories batting for big business and the rich. this is the time for labor to come in and that for our side, workers, and communities. >> i know that's what you want,

but what i'm trying to get out is how confident you are that the incoming labor government will be the sort of labor government that you'd want. now, peter mendelsohn, who's one of the architects of new labor, i'm sure you're familiar with him, he's gonna make a speech this week and hill say, you gather, we have to make high level of private investment the foundation of everything else we would want to achieve. example, in the role labor's proposed national was funds will lever in and partner private capital. do you agree that that's fundamental? >> i think we've tried a lot of that before, haven't we? i'm really pushing at the moment at this conference for the renationalization of energy. and we thought that it was the right thing. the tories haven't reversed that, it was the right thing to have energy in private hands. that is now we've got astronomical. bills we have no control over a key asset. it means the french people have lower bills because they on their own energy. i think labor is in favor of

nationalization as long as it's another country owning it. what we've got to do now is to say what are the different choices we could make that mean that the workers of the communities in britain that can feel a labor government. that's the thing for me, of course i want labor to get in. i'll campaign for labor, but i want them to count. i want to be able to feel a labor government like we did in 1945. >> let's talk about some of the things that would make you feel that it's your kind of labor government. let's talk about the nationalization. even pretty clear that you want electricity and gas in public hands. you are the dominant union in the other energy sector, oil. would you like kirsten when he speaks this week to say, maybe not tomorrow, but one day we are going to nationalize bp? >> what i want him to say is that he's going to do something. i want him to say that actually we are on this journey, we're on this path. and part of that, and there are sort of three things that are really talking about this week. one is on the privatization and

the renationalization of energy. so to take it out of private hands. the other is in relation to workers rights, and of course we have the issue around steel. we have a steel industry on its knees and we need proper investment and steal. so i'm here this week, normally wouldn't be here this year, or trevorton. normally be on a picket line. i wouldn't be here. >> he always turn up at labour party conference. >> my job is to fight for workers. that's the job that i have, i'm here for some of this week because we're at the business end. where the business end. we're affiliated with labor at the business end. and i want to say very clearly they need to put a better offer on the table for workers, now, i think, obviously. i hope they when i want them to win. but there is a difference between limping into and being carried, actually carried in there to say look, this person's gonna come in and i've gotta back. i'm trying to get from you what actually constitutes that. i really want to pin you down a

little bit on this. what do you want labor to say about public ownership of oil and gas? >> at the moment, we're talking about energy. so we're prioritizing. we're prioritizing. and i'm the trade union leader of a union. and my members make decisions about what it is they would like us to say on these things. we had a conference in july, and the energy member said they wanted there. -- >> you want ppe nationalized? >> what i've said is that i take my league for my members, i take my lead from my members. and the priorities that we're looking at at the moment or two things. not gonna get everything. but want to steal and one's energy, now the wider issue -- what i think about steele is that we should have a stake in steel. we are in a serious situation of steel where effectively, this industry is literally on its knees, we could be the green steel capital of europe.

this country could be the green steel capital of europe if we invested well, why have that investment and not have a stake, so there's a conversation about that. but the wider issue for me that i'm asking labor to do. the most wider issue is about choices. we are a trillion and a half pound economy. so nobody tell me that we can't afford to renationalize energy had -- what i want to make -- 19 billion pounds renationalizing the electricity and gas. >> let me just talk you through that. >> you're quite specific in yet -- >> i'm very specific. basically, 19 billion pounds, assets on our book, and they're not drinking pine town, pavin echoes away. it's an asset on our books. i would or two and a half trillion pound economy. if we make different choices, we have different outcomes, and that's the point that i'm trying to make at the moment, that for example, if you say 1.5% on every but you had over 10 million pounds in this country. over 10 million pounds and

assets, that would bring in 17 billion pounds a year. we're currently doing a paper because nobody is talking about this on what other choices can be made. and there are the choices to be made -- >> i've looked at the united document. and i know you've got a report coming on this. is that what you mean by progressive taxation? then you want wells now to be taxed at a higher rate? he won more money of essentially middle class people. what we're looking at is a whole range of things. and unite has a hole -- we were the ones are brought out the profiteering report. we were the ones that showed that the government of the bank of england said tenure pell don't ask for a pay raise because it will cause inflation, actually there was huge profiteering on the other side of that that was causing inflation. >> let me ask a political question. one of the mps that you supported has been union for a long time. he's now sitting as an independent, jeremy corbyn, if he decides to fight north as it independent, would you be

supporting him still? >> we couldn't do that, trevor, because obviously our unions rulebook is that we're affiliated to really burr. and if you're affiliated to labor, it's just happened in july that our union reconfirmed its affiliation by a vote, a very strong vote, by the way, by a vote, and of course labours rules are that if you supported independent, you would be expelled. and therefore, that decision isn't a decision, because our members made that decision where we've effectively -- the supporters for the labour party because that's what our rules say that we. do >> very last point. what we've been talking about is the kind of labor government you like to see. would you prefer a labor government that will make peter mendelsohn happy, or another government of another color? >> i want to labor government. let's be really clear. i one i saw peter mendelsohn said labor should be bold as well. that somebody agreed with me i didn't expect. i want labor to be bolder. because of their bold, or we can deal with what's happening

in society. let's do what it says on the labor ten. let's go in and be labor. >> sarah graham, thank you very much. >> thank you trevor. >> coming up, this man, who knows a lot about getting labor back into power. he did it once with tony blair and new labor. so what does peter, mendelsohn, make of the current crop?

welcome back to this is sunday morning with trevor phillips. next year, -- will bid to become just the second labor politician born in the last century to win a general election. we all know who i was, tony blair. the new labor project brought his party out of the political wilderness with a stun cain landslide. a thing the current leaders trying to replicate. at the heart of that project was a man once labeled the prince of darkness, lord people mendelsohn. he joins us now peter, you heard my interview with sharon graham. how does it feel to be in bed, speaking politically, with sharon graham? >> i agree with sharon graham. we need more than -- >> we've got a headline. oh peter mandolin agrees with sharon graham. a new alliance. >> i agree that we need more

than policy tweets and we need more than small twists of the policy dial. yes, i'm happy to be bold, but not pulled and stupid. >> you're not going to be campaigning for the nationalization of bp? >> i'm going to be campaigning for a labor government that's going to invest in home insulation or grid energy security and efficiency in peoples homes. i'm going to be campaigning for a labor government that's going to get british workers building electric vehicles. i'm going to campaigning for a labor government that's going to get steele lakers making green steel, not passing 96 billion pounds worth of public funds to the shareholders in bp and other energy companies. okay? so now you know what bolden stupid is. bold, yes. stupid, no. >> let's talk about you and i don't want to spend all my time

refereeing you and sharon. but let's talk about you. we've been talking, discuss sane, are going about politics. i think we discovered 50 years now. we >> are indeed both of us older than we look. >> as ever, even somebody who knows you isn't absolutely sure what you're up to. mystery surrounding. you >> exactly what role are you plane in the labour party's affairs right now? are you advising the leader? >> i'm doing anything and everything i can, not my day job. it helped -- help this team and get labor back with his big majority as we can. that's what i'm doing. >> this in the draft of his speech for tuesday? >> no. >> you are not part of the inner circle. >> i'm way out on the fringe somewhere. >> you're inviting him to be bold, so is sharon. and not to be doing the same thing. i want you to say what you

think boldness means. what they told me this morning that you know, he's already said that the tories have laid waste to the nhs. he's got this idea about scanners, 50 million. overtime for staff and so on, do you think that really matches up to the task. labor's telling us we've got to build a massive new flat. >> i think it does add up, you've got to look at every single part of the public financial budget and see where you can switch spending in order to make a difference. >> i'm talking about the scale of ambition here. in the medium and long term, you've got to do far more. where's -- said about the national health service is that it's not just gotta be up office in these, it's gotta be transformed. and in my view, it's going to be transformed principally by two things. first of all, making it less of

a hospital bed based, cure you and do your best when you got ill to a preventative primary health care focused system that stopped people getting so ill in the first place. secondly, the use of data which has been generated in huge quantities, and its use and diagnostics and in other areas of health care is going to transform the national health service in the medium and long term. that's going to take investment. that has to be built up properly. but creating that direction of travel, for the nhs and other public services. is as important as making in a media difference to public services by switching spending wherever they can. >> but you, when you came, in 1997. you had money, there was growth coming. this labor government won't have any money because there isn't any money left.

and i'm trying to get from you what you think would represent the scale of change that really would transform the nhs. what other kinds of things would make the leadership, for example, more private sector involvement? >> he he made it absolutely clear. he it we can pay for it and commandeer private health care in order to meet the needs of nhs patients, soviet. when you've got to take a very pragmatic approach to these things. but trevor, you do put your finger on a very important point compared now with 1997. in 1997, when we were campaigning, with blair and brown, the british economy was growing. what they had to do was put their feet firmly down on the economic accelerator.

compare now, we've basically got to jump-start, restart the entire economy. it's a completely different kind and scale of economic challenge that we're facing now. and -- >> surely that demands even more -- >> the reason why i am such a strong supporter of what he is saying and doing on the economy is because he recognizes that he knows that the five big policy missions that he's set for the labour party in the next david government [inaudible] he knows that in a sense, only a government can create economic and political stability that we need in order to win the confidence of markets, to finance public investment, but also he knows, we have got to transform. hold on, this is important. we've got to transform the attractiveness of the british

economy and the whole business environment in this country in order to win the global race for private investment. now, that's a big difference between now and when we are coming into office in 1997, in 1997, things were relatively good. certainly better than they are now >> when you came in in 1996, you had a lot of what i think what they called cost neutral policies, house of lords reform, 50% of levers -- there were not big public spending commitments, but transformed institutions in the way things operated. we're not seen any of that from labor at the moment, our way? >> i don't agree with you. let me give you a couple of examples. the planning system in this country and the time it takes to get permission to do anything, to build anything.

the business and infrastructure and science or whatever is the biggest single break on our economic growth. and reforming that and overhauling that is a massive and very challenging thing to do. that's not causeless, but it does not involve vast sums of public money. >> one last quick question, you're getting married. >> and of this month. >> congratulations. >> thank you very. much >> what can he say on tuesday that will give you a wedding president? >> he can continue to do what he's already doing at the moment, and that is to bring the labour party across the line from being weird to been normal again. which he's done very successfully, and secondly, he can give's country what it needs, its future back with us big labour party majority at the next election. >> absolutely on message. absolutely.

>> in just a moment, on a busy morning and liverpool, we're here with our panel once again.

>> back to our panel now. and mcilroy, jackie smith, and -- i've just been talking to peter mendelsohn about -- and remember the days at labor

party conferences, leaders would stop the halls and everybody would be quaking for their next -- sharon graham has been pretty direct. do you think keir is dominant will be hearing her voice more loudly than that of people mendelsohn's? >> it was quite a bit of consensus between them, i thought, wasn't there? >> maybe i should be a peacemaker. >> i think that's more of a sign that people are artery serious about getting a labor government, seriously. sharon grandma's are always taken the approach as a union leader on her industries rolled in our political kingmaker role, given the challenges for working people, that's probably the right thing for her to be focusing on. >> i'm quite disconcerted by this whole peace and harmony. >> where is the fun? this is not the time for fun,

this is the first shot. the first serious shot that labor has that power. and we all, particularly jackie and i, have the scars on our back. if you think getting absolutes match at the ballot box. many people are thinking it could possibly ten years even more before liberals can petitt of again. i think what is interesting is that before conference season kicked, off we had the two you see conference. and what was interesting there is that there wasn't total agreement over everything, but there was a consensus that everybody is going to tow the line to get to kiss tom over the line. and also, sharon graham is very different from her predecessor mccloskey, he was much more politically. he wanted to meddle in the inner workings of the labour party. she's actually delivering, giving quite a good job delivering. and yes, the union income is very important to the labour party. that link between here hardy as

united the labor movement. but let's not forget the number of private donations coming to labour party as well. the unions -- >> three billion from lord haynes barry. >> he's a very, labor is now getting so much money and coming from business. it's not like they are held to ransom by the union says they might've been done in the past. >> i don't want to cause trouble or anything, but i wonder how long this is going to last. somebody said, the other night, there is my word, i jurassic park strategy. if you don't move, t-rex won't spot you. can you stop breathing for a whole year? something has to get done. >> you would think so, wouldn't you? but at the moment, if you look at the position on industrial relations, i would suggest it's still a government that's under more pressure. you saw rishi sunak began in,

he was particularly talking about doctors in the nhs and saying we are not going to go any further than we have gone. i think for labor, it's probably drastic maybe in a position that there's a difference between jurassic between putting your head in the sand. i think what will happen between the unions, and it is interesting that sharon graham is here prominently as a lot of people say. she's engaged very much at all, because it was the case that there were some union leaders who would like to be around in the labor world, and others who really keep arm length and really suggest that this labour party was not to her taste. that i think is closing in order to get keir starmer elected. i think it strikes industrial relations there will be pressure on labor. but right, now i would say it is going more towards the tories. and that may be why we're all going drastic here. >> aisha, peter mendelsohn demonstrated a very old school

message discipline. >> i know, this is a master class in keeping the line. >> he did the job. but labor can talk to itself and love each other and all the things, but it's got to get votes from outside there. and one of the things going back to 1997 that i think everybody would acknowledge. if there was some sense of anticipation, some kind of excitement. in his book, he says 1997 was a moment where labor got thrilled by labor. let's get the future back. are you feeling a tingle? >> a crackle in the air. >> look, i don't think conference slogan is the thing that's going to massively move the needle on this. what is really clear though is that i think for me, the most interesting thing that peter mendelsohn said was bold, but not stupid. we all know the metaphor about the --

highly polished folks. this time it's an ice rink within one ice gate on. this takes a very very high. is a former strategist and paro -- the time is going to come as we approach the short campaign where there is going to be a bit more encouragement. i think the thing that i'm struck by, is this is going to be a change election, labor does need to set out what that change is going to be. >> jacqui, i don't know a lot about slogans, but you will remember the great slogan forward, not back. >> we see what do you have to do to get people excited and love? it >> once more, of course, i was elected in 1997. i do remember a conference call with peter mendelsohn where he was running late and we listen to things can only get better on a loop for half an hour. to deliver us the message which always was when people are

bored, the public are just getting it. aisha is exactly right. there needs to be a bit more of a retail offer, but there needs to be a sensible approach to government. and that's what we've been seeing this morning and this week. >> thank you all. that's it for this morning. join us next week for sunday morning with trevor phillips. next week, the snp are in aberdeen. they'll be licking there wounds after -- it's still a force to be reckoned with. stay with us.

>> good morning. this is sky news live from jerusalem, where benjamin then yahoo says his