tv Alex Wagner Tonight MSNBC October 11, 2023 1:00am-2:00am PDT
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destroyed weapons depots. watch what has happened over the course of the time that israel tried to do that. in the beginning, hamas rockets were crude made pipe bombs that were barely crossing over into israel. mostly falling inside gaza. here we are, almost 20 years later, they are now using drones and carrying out. their own assaults. and this is under siege. this is what hamas is done under siege. in the course of this trajectory. they're rocketed gone further and further. >> thank you both, gentlemen, really appreciate it. that is all in on this tuesday night, alex wagner tonightfurth. >> thank you both, gentlemen. that is "all in" on this tuesday night. alishx wagner tonight begins right now. >> thanks to you at home for joining me now tont tonight as we continue to follow the deadly israel-hamas war in the middle east. so far estimates put the total dead with 1,900 with more than
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1,700 people injured. the israeli government estimates over 1,000 israelis have been killed in the confct and more than 2,700 others have been injured. andgaza's health ministry estimates that 900 palestinians have been killed in gaza with more than 4,500 injured. those numbers are sure to grow as hamas continues to fire rockets into israel, and israel continues to bomb the gaza strip where more than 2 million civilians live without the freedom to move beyond its borders. today nbc news' richard engel got a look at some of the israeli communities where residents have been evacuated. >> reporter: israeli troops are still trying to secure the country four days after the worst terror attack in israel's history. and today moved into a village on the border with gaza. there are still bodies everywhere. the israelis in body bags, hamas
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gunman were left rotting where they fell, next to the flags they brought to declare victory. >> right now israeli defense forces say they're amassing more than 360,000 reserve troops as they prepare for a possible ground invasion of gaza. complicating that is the fact that israeli authoritiesel curr least 150 people hostage. and hamas has threatened to execute one israeli hostage each time israel bombs gaza without warning and promising an isis-style broadcast of the execution. now, it is almost impossible to imagine the fear and the suffering those hostages are currently facing. by now many of you have seen the terrifying images of israeli concert goers running for their lives on saturday as armed hamas militants began firing on the crowd of civilians and taking hostages. people were ripped from their homes, some of them brutally
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murdered, others dragged into cars to be taken as captives. the u.s. government confirmed today that 14 american citizens have lost their lives so far. national security advisor jake sullivan told reporters the number of americans believed to be missing as a result of this war is 20 or more. today the families of americans believed to be hostages held a press conference to urge the u.s. and israeli governments to take swift action and bring their family members home. one of the americans still messing is hersch goldberg poland who witnesses say was loaded into a hamas vehicle missing one arm and wearing an improvised tourniquet. other americans met even more tragic fates. he moved to israel to find more peace between israelis and palestinians. he was one of 14 americans killed by hamas. the last 24 hours have been filled with desperate pleas from the family members of potential
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hostages, families that are hoping and praying that their loved ones are still alive. >> if anyone can hear me, if my daughter hears me, i'm begging you, please be strong and know that we are looking and we will not stop until we will find you no matter what. >> get back our family, get back our loved ones. this should be the top priority, nothing else. >> dozens of my friends, my neighbors were killed. to my son, he's an arm's length away in gaza, evidently, but couldn't be farther from me and our family right now. >> tomorrow secretary of state antony blinken will fly to israel where he's expected to meet with senior israeli security officials and discuss what resources the u.s. can provide. his visit comes as an american aircraft carrier the "uss gerald
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ford" has just arrived in the region to deter further attacks. today president biden addressed the nation condemning the terrorist attack of hamas and making clear the u.s. would remain a steadfast ally to israel. >> this is terrorism. this is an act of sheer evil. more than 0 civilians slaughtered/slaughtered in israel. among them at least 14 american citizens killed. parents butchered using their bodies to try to protect their children. so in this moment, we must be crystal clear, we stand with israel. we stand with izrlt. >> joining me now is john kirby, the spokesperson for the national security counsel, also a retired rear admiral for the u.s. navy. let me get right to it. i know it's a busy day, and we
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appreciate your time. can you tell us a bit about what's happening behind the scenes to determine the status of these american hostages? >> we're working very, very hard, alex, to do exactly that. the first step in doing that is of course hearing from the families themselves. they have been a very important source of information as they try to find the whereabouts of their loved ones. number two, second big step is keeping that communication open with our israeli counter parts. because they're on the ground, got better intelligence than we do. they have a better sense of the hostage situation, so we've been obviously talking hour by hour with our israeli counter parts to try to get more information. and then, three, we have made it
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clear to the israelis we're willing to provide our own hostage recovery expertise and advice and counsel from federal law enforcement, the u.s. military, and even the u.s. intelligence community if that would be helpful. so we're in active communicationswise the israelis, also about providing some advice counsel, expertise we have in-house. >> i know president biden was clear today in his remarks from the white house the u.s. would stand shoulder to shoulder israel, but he did issue a sort of -- i'm not going to call it a warning but there was a sort of caveat what he said. i'd love to play the sound back to get your thoughts how we should interpret it. >> we also discussed how democracies like israel and the united states are stronger and more secure when we act according to the rule of law. terrorists purposely target
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civilians and kill them. we uphold the laws of war -- the law of war it matters. there's a difference. >> what -- was that a cautionary note sounded to the israelis, the idea that terrorists purposely target civilians and kill them, we uphold the laws of war -- the law of war. it matters, there's a difference. does the biden administration worry the israeli government may be violating the rules of war? >> primarily the president was making clear the difference and the distinction between what hamas is doing, the deliberate indiscriminate butchering of innocent civilians in israel, now more than 1,000 of them literally murdered in the streets, in their homes, at a music festival as compared to what israel needs to do to defend its citizens. so, look, i want to be very clear. we don't want to see one more single innocent civilian life taken or injured here, one more
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family affected by violence. an innocent civilian should never be subject to war, but hamas is placing these palestinians in gaza in greater risk and jeopardy because they are staffing themselves in headquarters and hospitals and schools and residential buildings. we know the israelis are conducting aggressive operations. we understand the need to do that, but the president was making the case that like the united states, israel is a democracy. israel does respect the law of war. israel does respect life and tries to operate in that -- in that way. but, again, we're going to be obviously staying closely aligned, closely lashed up with israel as they move forward in making sure they have what they need to defend themselves. >> yeah, i was just noting -- i mean the president was very clear what he thought of hamas' terrorism and slaughter of
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innocents. it was just the specific mention that democracies like the u.s. and israel are stronger and more secure when we act according to the rule of law. but let me ask you about the military assistance the u.s. navy may be prepared to send over the israel. can you talk more about that? and are there any concerns the fact the iranians may be behind these attacks ultimately and this could sort of end up being a proxy war between the u.s. and iran? >> no one wants to see this war -- this conflict escalate. and that's why those naval forces were pushed into the eastern mediterranean, a varcapable strike group of course. a lot of capability onboard those ships. and it's a clear message of deterrence to any other actor whether it's a terrorist group, organization, or another nation state that thinks that now's the opportunity to take advantage of what's going on in israel. these are anybody with ennimty
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towards israel, this is not the time to do that. that's when message the president was sending when he ordered the carrier strike group into the eastern med. we don't want to see this conflict escalate. we have, by the way, significant national security interests in the region themselves. we want to make sure we can protect and defend those security interests. that's what this move was all about. >> admiral john kirby, really appreciate the time and thoughts and clarifications tonight. thanks so much. >> yes, ma'am. >> joining me now on set, bobby gauche, and susan glasser. thanks for joining me tonight, folks. let me first get your thoughts on how the u.s. calibrates its response here, susan. number one, there are americans that are being held over there. it's a shocking -- shocking acts of brutality on the part of hamas. the israeli retaliation has been swift and it has been severe. it sounded like the president was a little bit concerned about israeli targeting of civilian
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infrastructure. i wonder what you thought the sort of primary calculations are for the biden administration right now? >> yeah, no, absolutely. first of all, you're hearing i think a genuine message of outrage by president biden today. i was struck by that that. in some ways it was among the angriest i heard him as the president. he was horrified. i think he just had his phone call with prime minister netanyahu before he came out and spoke. the stories and the details that we're getting of the atrocities on the ground there, you know, we wouldn't be human not to relate to the horror of what's unfolding. and by the way, we may hear even worst things in the coming days. these have been active in effect crime scenes and war zones still since saturday. number one, i think genuine outrage, genuinely wanting to say we stand shoulder to shoulder with israel. i think that's an important message from the president.
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there's so many questions. what does it mean there's going to be an offensive operation now in gaza? so it's very hard to answer the question of what the biden administration approach to it is because we don't know what the israeli approach to the conflict is. and of course, you know, this is a nightmarish situation in gaza where it's almost impossible to imagine the israelis even if they were determined to that they could separate civilians and the targets of hamas. >> let's talk about that, bobby, the sort of difcult calibration that prime minister netanyahu must make between this presumed ground invasion and the 150 maybe plus hostages that are being held in locations unknown. where do you think his sort of interests lie primarily at this point if he has to make a decision? >> well, it's an impossible decision to make. you're asking someone to choose between getting justice for
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those already killed. i can't think of any time with this many hostages held with the direct threat if you come in, we will execute these people. this is completely unprecedented. and you can imagine as these images that susan refers to comes up, you can imagine the sense of urgency, the sense of anger, the sense of range. the idf soldiers would not be human if they didn't feel a sort of compilation to revenge the fallen. this is the context in which biden's statement pointed out, you know, indirectly advising restraint. i think that's the context.
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we've sent an aircraft carrier. that is to restrain anybody else from getting into the fray. sooner or later biden's also going to have to restrain netanyahu from overplaying his hand. friends don't let friends commit war crimes. that's part of it. >> i've got to ask how and why -- what the strategy for hamas is. because in the words of one analyst in "the new yorker" actually today this is suicide mission for hamas as an entity. how does hamas even begin to survive something as brutal and horrific like this as a legitimate sort of organization, if you will? >> first of all, to answer it's not a legitimate organization. let's just say that. there's been on the list of terrorist organizations in the united states since the late clinton area. this is just barbarism.
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it is murder. it is -- there's no possibility of hamas being a legitimate organization. i think that's very important to say because there seems tuesday be a lot of confusion on that point. what was the strategy behind it? it does seem as though they decided to take an unacceptable status quo and blow it up, that they were not looking for any way to get back across that bridge. so they've blown up the bridge behind them. i do think it seems aimed certainly at provoking exactly the kind of outrage that is now occurring in israel, in the region, and here in the united states. >> well, but also destroying gaza. i mean that's the other part of the calculation. you're blowing up the bridge with your people still on it to some degree, right? >> these people are hostages in many respects as well. i ran into a senior official the other day who pointed that out to me. he said, look, you have to understand even within gaza if there was a legitimate way of
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taking public opinion, it's very likely hamas is not supported by a majority of the population. they have been victimized by these people claiming to be leading them. not only is this not anywhere near a democracy in terms of what has hamas done to the people of gaza under its rule. this is an intolerant theocratic state in which you're not allowed freedom of speech. any dissent has been brutally punished inside gaza. these people are also at the mercy. they didn't take a vote and decide to undertake this attack on israel. >> bobby, your thoughts on -- sort of the calculation, and we will talk about iran's involvement in this as well because that factors into how hamas began to do this. but the sort of strategy is no strategy, it seems. >> hamas is consistent with what they've done in the past, which is they're perfectly happy to see ordinary innocent gazan
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citizens being slaughtered. that's why they put themselves in and amidst those civilians as john kirby just said. they don't mind sacrificing their people for their idea of a cause. from their narrow perspective they think, well, we and landed a blow, that's victory enough. we surprised and shocked the israelis and that's victory enough. we inflicted the single largest number of casualties on the state of israel on any single day in its entire history. if you look at the world through that very twisted lens that hamas has, all of these things amount to a victory. and if in exchange for this victory thousands -- tens of the thousands of gazans of died, that's a price they're ilwithing to pay. >> and put into motion an untold
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number of amount of casualties. please stick around, my friends, because i want to talk to you both about the growing concern the warfare between israel and hamas will escalate into a larger regional conflict. we'll have more on that coming up next. conflict we'll have more on that coming up next. we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you hear
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hamas' attack on israel and israel's retaliation is sparking concerns about wider conflict in the region. israeli defense forces, the idf, says it detected a number of rockets fired from syria into israeli territory, a first since this conflict began. in return the idf fired mortar shells. on israel's border with lebanon the militant group hezbollah today claimed credit for a missile attack on an israeli tank in the third straight day of violence there. in israel's southwest, egypt is resisting calls to open its border with the gaza strip for fear of an onslaught of refugees. and looming over all of this is iran, which reportedly planned, trained, and gave hamas the green light to carry out its terror attack on saturday. let's bring back bobby gaush, and susan glasser. bobby, let me start with you.
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we were talking about hamas' calculations. is this a response to the sort of consolidation of powers iran doesn't like? >> i don't think that's the only reason. iran has for decades since the revolution, since this group of theocrats took over iran has set itself over the state of israel and has threatened israel over and over again. over decades it has built this network of proxy groups hezbollah in lebanon, houthis in yemen, the shiite groups in iraq to serve those interests in those countries but also to encircle israel. the closeness -- the growing closeness between israel and all
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the gulf arab states not only saudi arabia but all of them does not fit into iran's plan for the region. so that is one more reason why iran sort of has been encouraging these groups, and i can imagine would -- would certainly approve of this action. they've been celebrating it. everyone from the supreme leader of iran on down has been celebrating it. would iran have approved an operation like this even if the saudis and israelis were not having these negotiations? very likely. i don't think that that is -- that may be one more straw, but it's not even necessarily the last. >> the fact the sort of iranian backing of this in and of itself represents a sort of changing of the guard, if you will.
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"the wall street journal" notes this, and i'll read it to you, susan for thoughts. iran's back of a coordinated group of arab militias is ominous for israel. in previous conflicts they were the patriots and were able to reach some type of accommodation or recognize a red line, according to bernard hudson, a former counter terrorism chief at the cia. >> it's a chilling thought and that of course brings the nuclear question back into the picture as well. you know, one of the big sort of strategic game changers in the middle east that has also shaped a lot of this diplomacy on the part of netanyahu and the united states is the fear that iran has become closer and closer to becoming a nuclear power. that is a profoundly destabilizing potential in the region and especially as iran has spent years not just this
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particular operation but spent years building up these proxy forces, building up a network of terror groups and seeking wherever possible not only to oppose israel but oppose the gulf arab states and saudi arabia. i think you'd see one of the main drivers behinds saudi arabia's interest in making a peace arrangement with israel is the prospect of an iranian nuclear weapon becoming closer and closer. and then you're going to see pressure on the side of the saudis, of course, were that to happen to obtain their own sources of nuclear power, and then we're off to the races. the other thing i haven't seen mentioned as much that's very important. remember the other context here is there is a new era of super power competition. one of the main reasons in washington articulated as to why the biden administration is trying to pursue this peace deal between saudi arabia and israel is because it's in the framework of this new global competition between the united states and china and russia.
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and i think that that has been left out as we've all understandably focused on the horrors on the ground in israel, looked at the immediate regional problems. but remember the context here is a new age of super power competition as well. it's not the u.s. versus the soviet union, but it's something 21st century equipped. >> and the fact ukraine is factoring into the aid we may egive to israel, republicans in congress focusing on freezing of aid to iran, questioning whether we're going to give any aid to ukraine and the open question what happens in israel, as you say it's 21st century globalism. when we come back when hamas breached the high tech defensive wall it was the culmination of prepping and planning. so how did israel fail to see it
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in december of 2021 the government of israel announced the completion of a very sophisticated, very expensive wall on the border it shares with gaza. that wall took four years and more than 140 tons of iron and steel to be created. the israelis called it the iron wall. to catch any movement near the
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border the iron wall has hundreds of cameras and radars and sensors. it has razor wire at the top, a 20-foot metal barrier, and a subterranean concrete wall to block any underground tunnels. to this day it's unclear how deep that concrete barrier runs. despite all of that, rumaus terrorists managed to breach the wall this past weekend and attack izal. first attackers used commercial drones tuesday bomb observation towers along the wall, then they launched thousands of rockets into israel while other militants flew across the border with gliders. you can see them here circled in red. once they were on the other side of the wall, hamas bombed the barrier itself. these videos show men crossing on foot and driving motorcycles through the holes in the fence. then bulldozers arrived and did the rest allowing for a passage of larger vehicles through that wall. this was a sophisticated plan,
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one that likely took weeks or months or even years to plan and execute. joining me now is my friend ali velshi. he's reporting live from the city about 15 miles from the northern border with gaza. ali, it's great to see you. thank you for being here tonight. i know we have a slight delay, so i'm going to get right to it. let me first ask you how much pressure ir israeli authorities are under to explain how this happened without any advance understanding on the part of israeli security forces. >> it is a great deal of pressure. in fact, we're hearing it from a lot of people despite the fact generally speaking after an attack we saw on saturday in any country you would see unity, even some political divisions that have been roiling this country for the last year have been put to the side. but there are a number of people who have said this might actually be the end of benjamin netanyahu for two reasons. one, he is is the man who keeps coming back as prime minister of this country on a national
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security platform, on the idea he can keep this country safe. and secondly, there have been distractions in this country for so long. as you know hundreds of thousands of people taking to the streets every week in protest. there's some sense perhaps their eye was off the ball in gaza. it is unbelievable the images you just showed to understand how gaza, which is always patrolled by drones, so israel has a complete view of everything that happens in gaza could have achieved -- how hamas could have achieved training paragliders or developing the technology they needed today do that. but just tonight there's still gazans 15 miles over there, it's dark. there's no electricity so you can't see it, we're seeing air strikes in gaza and the iron dome coming out of it. so there's still rockets being launched from gaza after four nights being pounded by air strikes 24 hours a day. in fact, they switch out every four hours.
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four hours the air force does the air strikes, you can hear the jets overhead, and after four hours the navy does the air strikes from the mediterranean sea. constant missile strikes on gaza, and they're still sending rockets into israel. the israeli people are very confused about how one of the greatest intelligence services in the world missed this, and that's the question a lot of people have and very angry about. >> the anger and confusion doesn't end there because there are, of course, the hostages still left behind. we are to presume they're being held in the vast tunnel network in and around gaza. i wonder when you talk to families what is their expectation? are they hopeful there will be some sort of rescue operation launched to save their loved ones? >> they want their loved ones saved as the number one priority, which is understandable. they want that done before the
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retribution and decapitation of hamas. part of the issue here is they know the goal is to get rid of hamas. they also know while their family members are being hostages, they could be human shields. those people could be in the tunnels. they could be anywhere in gaza. this is a vast -- it's a very small but vastly heavily populated place, and it's very densely populated. apartment buildings with many stories in them. as i say israel can see everything that it can see from the sky. it can't see what's inside those buildings, and there's a real sense hamas may be using these hostages as human shields. how do you get the hostages out? well, there's a talk of a ground operation, but that would be street to street battle in an urban environment, not something that is easy to do as america learned in the middle east. or it could be a negotiated settlement. america and israel don't have good relations with hamas, don't have good relations with iran that is influential in hamas as
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you talked about. they do have negotiate asians with qatar. that's a possibility. but it's unsaverry right now for the israelis to think about the idea of negotiating with hamas. family members who have members being held hostage that is the priority. the way gaza is setup and built, you can't help but kill civilians when you're bombing, and that is mg hamas has said they'll have retribution for it. if people are killed without warning they say they'll start killing hostages. that's got everybody in israel further on edge. >> ali, just on that note, can you report out anymore details on the situation in gaza because we're hearing those reports about the bombing of civilian infrastructure. and given the already dire situation over there for civilians, again, i wonder what the latest is on on that front. >> well, there's a siege that
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israel has imposed on gaza in which no food, water, or fuel can get in. now, this is important. why, gaza -- if you can see it on the other camera. why it's dark, it's too far to see it. that's the city where the lights are. gaza is beyond that. it's completely dark, and the reason it's dark is because their power station -- the electrical power station runs on diesel fuel. there's no source of diesel fuel in gaza so it's all imported, and israel controls everything that comes in to gaza. so that's all cut off, and there's a fear that by tomorrow or so, all the fuel that runs that station will be gone. there's also water shortages and food shortages, and the border crossing on the bottom end of gaza going into egypt, that has been attacked. there are people assembling there trying to get into egypt, 183,000 people have been displaced from their homes according to the bombing. that's according to the united nations. there is nowhere for them to go. that's the problem.
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they're trying to get to egypt. there's a food shortage and within a few days because of the fuel, water, and food shortages there may be a humanitarian disaster unfolding in a place that was already one of the worst places on earth. >> just a horrible situation all around. ali velshi, stay safe my friend. doing great reporting. we really appreciate you. we have more ahead this evening as israel prepares for a likely ground assault in gaza. it is calling on hundreds of thousands of reservists to join the fight against hamas. we'll have more on that right after the break. t hamas. we'll have more on that right after the break. your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works.
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israel's tech industry is one of the country's fastest growing sectors. it accounts for almost a fifth of the country's entire gdp. in and around tel aviv there's so many giant offices housing major tech companies including google and intel and amazon that the area is known as silicon wabi. wabi is arabic for valley. the country as a whole has earned the nickname the startup nation. now, i'm telling you this because these tech workers are among the people who have been called up in the last 72 hours to take up arms and serve in the israeli military, which has summoned roughly 360,000 reservists. it's the largest and fastest mobilization since the yom
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kippur war 50 years ago. one person in works in big tech tells "the washington post" early saturday morning he heard air-raid sirens as he fed his children breakfast. by the afternoon at 1:00 p.m., he was on a military base near gaza. roughly 4% of israel's population of 9.8 million people are being called up to serve, separating families, forcing them to leave jobs and lives behind so as to take up arms against hamas. even before saturday's brutal attack, military service played a central role in israeli society. once israelis turn 18 they're required to complete a mandatory military service. after that, they can enter the reserves and can be called to duty at any time until the age of 40. but today even those israelis who have aged out of that requirement are volunteering.
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56-year-old lanir lost multiple families members. he's now going to fight alongside his two sons. telling "the washington post," now it is my time. lanir is also one of the leaders of brothers and sisters in arms, which is a group of reservists who have been the backbone of the ongoing pro-democracy movement in israel. for months these reservists and many others have protested against the overhaul of the supreme court to more power to benjamin netanyahu at the same time netanyahu is fighting corruption charges. some reservists previously threatened to ignore the call of duty, but now all of that appears to have changed. it is still unclear just how long this mobilization will last. 24-year-old reservists michael goldberg put it this way. there is a lot of mixed emotion, a lot of adrenaline and a lot of unknown. when we come back, traumatized citizens inside israel are
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israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has long been billed by his supporters as mr. security. but after facing corruption charges and protests inside israel over his efforts at judicial reform, netanyahu now has a lot to explain on the security front after the deadly surprise by hamas this weekend. netanyahu's reputation as mr. security is openly and actively being called into question. and he is not the only one. as former "the new york times" jerusalem bureau chief puts it, the failure of israeli and u.s. intelligence to detect plans from this unprecedented coordinated assault and israel's inadequate response in the first 36 hours afterward, will rightly be the subject of
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investigateatory commissions and commentary for months to come. the most plausible explanation i have heard so far is that prime minister benjamin netanyahu whose right-wing government took its off the ball leaving thousands of troops from the gaza command to protect israeli settlers from the occupied west bank and focusing far too much energy in focusing pro-democracy protests rather than thwarting actual threats. joining me now is the author of that, editor-in-chief. jodi, thanks for being here. i'd love to get your assessment of the landscape for netanyahu in the wake of this horrific brutal attack. >> it's interesting, alex. you refer to him as mr. security. and prime minister netanyahu who i covered for four years and was there as bureue chief, he sees himself as the protector of israel and jewish people from the existential threat of iran. and he has won elections over and over again based on fear,
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based on the idea hamas and hezbollah and iran presented these threats to israel. however, he's not a warmongering leader. he's actually showed a lot of restraint in his power outings with gaza and in other settings. so this is a new framework for him as well as the political context you set us up with. so what is likely to happen, i think, is there will be a unity government. there are negotiations going on right now to bring opposition leaders into this government. the question really is whether netanyahu will be forced to kick out some of the right-wing ministers he's made his coalition with so far or whether those people will enter without conditions. and there will likely be a broader government soon to prosecute this war on hamas. but i think it's hard to imagine -- in many ways it's hard to imagine any politicians surviving the sort of massive
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screw up that led to this attack. that said, netanyahu is a politician for more than nine lives. i mean he has resurrected himself and made deals with different politicians over and over and over again, so nobody should count him out. >> i do wonder, you know, from the outside it looks like there's remarkable nationwide unity in this moment. and i'm sure when it concerns the victims of these barbaric attacks that stands true, but you seem to suggest there is a real push for reform even as the mourning continues. >> i think there's a bunch of strands to this, alex. this is a tiny country, and so there's a lot of unity around the tragedy in part because everybody is affected. everybody i know knows somebody who was killed, was kidnapped, is deploying, all of those things. it's hard for us i think to imagine how affected everyone in the country is directly. that said, i would say that the -- the open questioning of
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the government's response in the first two days especially is something i've never seen before. in 2014 and 2012 when the wars broke out in gaza, you saw a different kind of unity, a sort of we all stand together when we're under threat, and this time i've seen just open questioning of the leadership. the third thing that's worth looking at is the protest movement that has been this kind of remarkable force in israeli society, bringing out more than 100,000 people every week for 40 weeks and showing the stark decision divisions across society, those people and organizers are now organizing a lot of the civilian response. they're the ones who are helping people get resettled and evacuated. they're the ones who are helping cleanup. and that makes a lot of sense in terms of the military amassing on the border, but given the frustration with the slow response on saturday to now see
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that the brothers in arms, the reservists who were resisting -- who are leading the pro-democracy movement and resisting the judicial overhaul, now they're the ones responding to this tragedy in the most direct kind of public service way i think says a lot about the long-term impact of those protests. >> one more more for you, jodi, there's some theorizing that hamas is trying to capitalize on division within israel in terms of the timing of these attacks. do you have a theory on that? >> i mean i think that's -- i think that's a solid theory. i believe that's part of it. i also believe there's credence to the idea that whether iran actually orchestrated this attack or simply encouraged it in its general backing of hamas because of the impending negotiations between saudi arabia and israel, both of those things make a lot of sense to
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me. i also think that, you know, hamas wanted to attack when it could attack. so i guess the real question is in the past we have seen hamas also show some restraint because of the inevitable level of retaliation. so it's very surprising they have the capabilities to launch such an assault, but it's also interesting that they would take such a risk. i mean, it's hard to imagine the fallout. >> it is all hard to imagine even as we see it play out on our screens. jodi, thank you so much for your time tonight. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. there are moments in this life -- i mean this literally, pure unadulterated evil is unleashed in this world. people of israel lived through one such moment this weekend. bloody hands of
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