this is messy and a real difficult, challenging time, considering u.s. is limited to what it can do for israel and other allies around the world. congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany, thank you. stick around. we'll talk to you on "morning joe." thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. the days ahead, we're going to continue to work closely with our partners in israel and around the world to ensure israel has what it needs to defend its citizens, its cities, and respond to these attacks. as i said yesterday, my commitment is the security and the safety of the jewish people, and it is unshakable. the united states has israel's back. i have yours, as well, both home and abroad. >> president biden continues to show support and solidarity with israel, delivering that speech yesterday while hosting jewish leaders at the white house. we'll have the latest on the war

and the biden administration's efforts to find missing americans. plus, we'll go through the new reporting on the massacre by hamas terrorists, that says the terror group's main backer may have been left in the dark. we'll discuss how that aligns with previous reports. also ahead, an update from capitol hill on the speaker's race. republicans have a nominee, but it is not clear if he's got the votes to get the gavel. >> i mean, willie, looks like more chaos. >> rough timing. >> more chaos from republicans. we have, of course, just an existential challenge for the people of israel who are going to need support from congress. we have an existential challenge from ukraine. >> yeah. >> and with all that's going on, i mean, you look and see what may be happening in taiwan, if, you know, one domino falls after another. we need congress and congress with a speaker. >> steve scalise is the nominee,

but nowhere in the neighborhood of having the votes he needs. that's why they didn't hold a vote yesterday. they get in at noon today. probably not going to have a vote then because he's just not there. this is going to be a replay of what kevin mccarthy went through in january. as you say, with the stakes even higher, though, because of what's happening in israel right now. >> right. jonathan lemire, just because, again, congress is impassed, have the knowledge of the importance of having a speaker. you have a hard set rule. you go to conference, you vote the person with the most votes inside the conference or the democratic caucus. they go to the floor, and they're the speaker and everybody votes for them. if not, there would be chaos. borrowing from the logan roy line, these are not serious people. they're proving what complete, reckless, irresponsible people they are by allowing this to go

on while we have all these crises across the globe. >> yeah, it's a chaos conference. some of the stunts to get attention by some of their members in recent days. nancy mace wearing a scarlet letter "a" on her shirt. george santos running through the hallways trying to avoid reporters. both of them coming out against scalise. scalise narrowly topped jordan yesterday behind closed doors. he's not even close. it's not the eight we know of. there's growing sense the numbers could be a dozen, 20 or more votes against scalise. it's unclear if he'll ever get to the vote for the floor, despite a whipping operation now. if this stretches on and other candidates come forward, what that does, joe and mika, of course, that slows down any ability for the u.s. to really aid israel at this time of crisis. >> again, the republicans have been trusted, just barely, but trusted with one wing of government. >> yeah. >> they're completely making fools of themselves, and they're

undermining america's national security, and undermining our ability to help the israelis, ukrainians, and our allies across the globe. it is serious. it is dire. they need to get serious very soon. at a dire time, as israel continues to launch strikes into gaza in an effort to neutralize hamas targets, while israel's military prepares for a potential ground operation. war planes have leveled buildings along the gaza strip since israel declared war on sunday. israel's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, agreed to form an emergency unity government, bringing a centrist political rival into his cabinet, someone who previously served as israel's chief of staff for the military. after the first meeting of his country's emergency government yesterday, netanyahu said, israel is on the offensive. promised to crush and eliminate hamas. and said, quote, every member of hamas is a dead man.

willie? >> let's go straight to israel where we find nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel near the border with gaza. what are you seeing there this morning? >> reporter: well, good morning. today, we are right on the border with gaza. we are inside israel, but to give you a sense of the distances here, if you look just beyond those power lines, you'll see a built-up area where there are plumes of smoke and there have been explosions from incoming israeli fire. that is the gaza strip. that is the hamas stronghold, and that, right now, is in israel's crosshairs. the air strikes are continuing, according to an israeli military official who gave a briefing this morning. these are the most intense strikes against gaza israel has ever carried out. they're describing this as unprecedented, just as the hamas terror attacks inside israel, which left close to or maybe even more -- the death toll is still going up -- 1,300 israelis

dead. that was also unprecedented. the next phase is a ground assault. according to the israeli military, they are ready. they are just awaiting orders. throughout this area, we've been seeing a buildup of troops. there have been tanks and apcs, armored personnel carriers, and artillery brought in, jeeps full of troops, reservists. israel called up around 360,000 reservists, and they're being mobilized. we are preparing, bracing for this next phase of the war. secretary of state blinken has arrived in israel. he is on a diplomatic mission to try to contain this war to israel and gaza. the concern is that it would spread to lebanon. israel has also reinforced the northern border along the lebanese border. having watched this and other conflicts before, once the bombs start flying and there are casualties, it is difficult to contain a war. >> richard, we know that there are at least 100, maybe up to 150 hostages being held inside

of gaza. we also know that hamas has an elaborate network of tunnels and places to hide those hostages. there's been talk of israeli commandos going in on rescue missions. even the white house wouldn't rule out yesterday that navy s.e.a.l.s. or green berets would go in. can you speak to the difficulty of the missions? >> reporter: the operation, if, or perhaps when, israeli troops go in, it'll be extraordinarily complex, because hamas has defenses, because hamas has booby traps and tunnels and, of course, because of these hostages. the operation will also involve hostage rescues. generally, and this is not the first time israeli troops have gone into the gaza strip, they used to occupy the gaza strip in the past, when they have gone in, they enter gaza from multiple directions. they enter from the north, the

sides, cut off the main roads. part of this operation will certainly be commando missions to rescue the hostages. according to the israeli military, they've located some of the positions where the hostages, they believe the hostages are being held. they, of course, for obvious reasons, are not saying where the locations are or how many people might be in those locations, but it is the first indication that we have heard from israel of any kind that they are gaining intelligence, gathering more information about potential locations, where they think the hostages may have been taken. >> nbc news chief foreign correspondent, richard engel, inside israel along the border with gaza. thank you so much for your reporting. we always appreciate it. joining us now, international spokesman for israeli's defense forces, major spielman. thank you for being with us this morning. i'll pick it up right there. do you have a sense for where some of these 100 or 150 hostages are? if so, are you preparing missions to rescue them?

>> so, first of all, when you say the word "hostages," we have to understand that this whole state of israel is really maybe the size of new jersey. you're talking less than 10 million people. the hostages, everybody in israel either has a family member who is a hostage, knows somebody who is a hostage, or has a son or daughter or a father or mother who are now called up to the front lines because of this situation. it's a very personal situation right now. these hostages are literally everybody's family. this is a top priority for the state of israel. there is no question. we have operation teams that are being headed by generals that have been created, that are combining both intel and ops to identify the hostages and everything else that goes around that. of course, this is a major element of our operational scenario. at the same time, we have the back end. every one of these loss ta hosts

have family. it could be a remaining 3-year-old brother. the families could be destroyed. we have an entire ministry dealing with that backend. first and forecast, it is clear, we have got to destroy completely hamas' ability to ever do this again. if they think that by displaying the hostages or the hostages are going to help them in this respect, they're wrong. it's clearly that they're an evil that absolutely needs to be trly defeated. >> major, in terms of that fact, the need to destroy hamas, and balancing the effort to save the hostages, what are you saying to the families when you communicate with them about the very latest in the efforts? how do you explain this balance? >> again, in many of these cases, i have to tell you, these families, and i've met the families, it's hard to believe,

but many of these families who have people taken as hostages, their other children are right now in the army, that are part of the fighting force of the state of israel in many, many, many cases. it's a very, very personal situation. they're torn at both ends. on one hand, they have people missing. on the other hand, they have people who put on a green uniform and were all of a sudden called to service. what they know, what the people of israel are unified by, we know hamas as an entity, the massacre they carried out seven days ago, they revealed their true face. we've been saying for years to the world, this is what we thought they were. we were even shocked by the gravity and just truly the cruelty of what they did. everyone is unified, including the families. hamas has to be removed from the scene because we can never allow this to happen again in the future. we have to do this very, very carefully with enormous care and precision. it's not going to be an overnight campaign. this is a war. we are at war right now. the war is what it is going to

take to defeat them. >> major, that, obviously, leads to one of the big concerns. david ignatius with "the washington post" wrote that israel's mission impossible is to destroy the terror networks, to crush hamas, to make sure they can never do it again. at the same time, protect civilian lives, protect palestinians whenever you can. could you just, for americans that are watching and then, you know, will see strikes against buildings in gaza, can you explain what those targets are that you were striking out against? can you also explain what israel is doing to minimize civilian casualties while trying to degrade and destroy the hamas terror network? >> absolutely. we have to understand that israel is in a state of war. after the massacre that was inflicted, we've clearly said there has been a paradigm shift

here. we are absolutely clear with ourselves and with the world that we are going to destroy hamas' capabilities completely. at the same time, hamas, we have to understand the situation that we're in. hamas came over our border and massacred israeli civilians. they then ran back over their own border, hid inside of their basements, and told their wives and children, "go to sleep upstairs, just above us in the apartment block above us." meaning, the cynicism and the -- how grotesque that is is hard to put our hands on, but they've created a situation of terror on our side and terror on their side. every single one of our targets is a military target that has been vetted with intelligence. now, whenever we can, we notify the civilian population in arabic. this can be done via messages on phones, via leaflets. when we can, we fire warning shots and ask them to clear out of the area as much as possible. i only wish that if hamas claims to be the champion of the rights

of people in gaza, cared about them even a little bit, they would understand how important it is for them to separate them from the scene of fighting. the question really needs to be addressed to hamas, because they knew when they did this we would have to come after them, like any country would. they're putting their own families directly above them. >> major, if you could, i'm sorry to make you explain things that seem so basic to you, but for americans watching, if you could explain for those that are saying israel is a great occupier of the palestinian people, could you explain that israel turned gaza over to the palestinians in 2005? they've had one election since then and, really, the greatest, the greatest victims of hamas have been the palestinian people who have watched them forego aid, forego international help, forego the ability for hamas to actually be growing and thriving, because their singular

obsession is on killing jews and destroying israel? >> i absolutely could not agree with you more. i'll tell you from a personal outlook. i was there the day we literally pulled our families out of gaza. i knew people in gaza. we pulled them out. they understood at the end of the day, this is for the peace of israel. we had reached a safe area outside of gaza. all of a sudden, we wear warning sirens, and rockets begin falling. maybe and almost naively, we were trying to understand. wait, we just pulled out of gaza. 2005, there is not an israeli left in gaza. why are they shooting rockets? we have seen the images. the humanitarian aid, the power, the cement, instead of going to hospitals and universities to advance their own civilization, population, they've been used to create tunnels, to ferry weapons, to send terror attacks and weapons back into israel. they have one objection.

their opponents were thrown off the roofs of buildings in gaza. that's what they did with the other party. not much of a democracy. hamas, it is almost a cult dedicated to death. it is the death of the israelis, absolutely, and, indirectly, or perhaps directly, it is the death of their own people. even the humanitarian aid crossings, which i have been to so many times, with all the trucks of humanitarian aid and the fuel for the palestinian people, that was one of the very first places hamas bombed. they killed the troops. they killed the people attending. they bombed the crossing, so no humanitarian aid can reach their own people. that is a situation in gaza, and there has not been an israeli living inside of gaza for almost 20 years. there is no occupation of gaza. >> yeah. you know, willie, it's the one thing i've been talking to leaders in republican and democratic administrations that have wrestled with this problem

since 2005. they all say the same thing. any funding that gets in there, any supplies that get in there, if they put in supplies for bridges, they're immediately constructed into war tunnels. everything is converted by hamas. any aid meant to help the people end up going into their war-making machine. it's just -- they haven't cared about the palestinian people in gaza, and they never will because, again, it is a cult of death. their goal is, and they say it, their goal is to kill jews. >> yeah, that's right in the charter when the organization was born. also, using their own people as human shields, even as we speak. major, there has been some dispute about the role of iran in the savage attack of last weekend. we know, of course, that iran backs hamas. there is no doubt about that, with finance, weapons, and everything else. the question is, was there a direct order from iran? was there a green light for this

attack over the weekend? what is your sense of that? is there, in fact, evidence that iran directed this attack through hamas on israel? >> iran's involvement in the middle east and with the regimes that are attacking israel is not even a secret. we know that the head of hamas met with the head of iran in june, and they were public about their discussion about the gaza strip and what's happening with israel. there is no attempt to hide this. these are tentacles of iran. it is also no secret the united states moved its carrier fleet into our area, really, and i think it is important, to send a message. it is going to take a while for the intelligence story to come out. certainly, i'm not at liberty to go into this, but the u.s.' involvement here is so important. that carrier fleet is sending a message, "we're not looking to get involved in any type of

regional ramp-up here." our focus is on hamas in gaza, and our support from allies around the world will hopefully send that as a clear message to other players in the region. >> if there were a direct line discovered through intelligence from iran in this attack, what would be the implications for israel? >> i think that would probably need to be discussed by the defense establishment, not by me at this time. >> international spokesman for israel's defense forces, major doron spielman, thank you very much for updating us this morning on "morning joe." we're going to take a one-minute pause here. but coming up, in israel, where moments from now we are expected to hear from secretary of state blinken and also from benjamin, his counterpart in benjamin netanyahu, about the ongoing war. we'll take the remarks live. we'll also get the latest reporting from "the washington post"'s david ignatius.

we're back in one minute. e minue

this attack was a campaign of pure cruelty. not just hate but cruelty against the jewish people. and i would argue it's the deadliest day for jews since the holocaust. the deadliest day since the holocaust. one of the worst chapters in human history that reminds us all of that expression i learned from my dad early on, silence is complicity. i mean, silence is complicity. it really is. i want you to know, i think you've already figured it out, i refuse to be silent. >> that's president biden speaking yesterday. he has spoke several times. yesterday, at that point, he was speaking to jewish leaders. long, personal, emotional,

discussion, just about how this cannot stand. let's bring in david ignatius. david, i was struck by, well, what we've known, and what we've known since these first reports came out. but you put it so well, where you talked about -- let me just read a bit of this. the gaza operation poses two agonizing challenges which will tragically seem to be in conflict. first, israel must restore deterrence against its enemies in gaza, west bank, lebanon, and iran after saturday's devastating attack. at the same time, it must minimize civilian casualties and save as many hostages as it possibly can. it seems like an impossible mission. david, it really does, it's an impossible mission.

as soon as the reports came out, the israelis knew, hamas knew, many of the victims of the war would be the palestinian people because hamas leadership uses them as human shields. they have since 2005. >> joe, i have the feeling that israel has decided that it must put the security of the state above the security of any individual, including the hostages it hopes to protect. the security of the state comes first. looking at the preparations, listening to major spielman, the spokesman, to richard engel's reporting, i see israel preparing carefully for an absolutely decisive campaign. reminded during world war ii of the moment franklin roosevelt decided the goal was unconditional surrender of the germans in the european campaign. unconditional surrender, something completely different. i rare that same tone of voice

from israelis. they're waiting at the gates of gaza. they're carefully thinking about all the contingencies, how difficult this operation will be. i feel certain, based on my reading of military technology, that they're going to use drones, robots, many, many technology devices to minimize the loss of life, both for themselves and for people, civilians in gaza. you can fly a drone through every room in a skyscraper and see who is there and then begin to take action. those kinds of technologies, i'm sure, will be used. >> yeah. >> i'm also struck by the fact that secretary blinken is in the region meeting with king abdullah in jordan, with other leaders, with prime minister netanyahu. why? to think about the day after this conflict ends. what will replace this terrible rule of hamas that's been --

that's plundered gaza? what will come in its place? i'm glad to see the israelis and the united states, through secretary blinken, thinking about that. in every way, it seems to me this is a moment of careful, deliberate preparation of the battlefield for what's going to be a big war. >> after that big war, like you said, discussions on how peace can be brought to this region. peace talks have really been, with the palestinians at least, been on hold now for better part of two decades. so you are exactly right. the war is before us now, just like war was after 9/11, and after that, what kind of peace can be put in place? david, i'm wondering whether your reporting suggests that hamas made a miscalculation, one of its many, that the israelis

at one time were willing to give up 1,000 prisoners were one hostage. wonder if that's looking more and more like a miscalculation in the grabbing of these hostages. from what i'm hearing, and from what i'm just picking up and gathering, like you said, the israelis are going to worry first about destroying hamas. if they can get the hostages back while destroying hamas, they will do that. but i have a feeling that the first goal for them is the only goal for them right now. >> joe, putting yourself into the mind of a hamas attack planner is impossible. but one thing i've been haunted by is they must have known, after an attack of this savagery, that the retaliation from israel would be punishing. >> right. >> that they'd come in with everything they have. so what other surprises do they have waiting? that's what troubles me.

they surprised israel last saturday in a way israelis could never have imagined. how could they do this? flying paragliders and all the things they did. what other surprises have they got waiting in the streets of gaza? again, we can't know. we're hoping the israelis, through their intelligence, are beginning to get a better sense of that. i'm sure there are people on the ground, various people and robots on the ground getting new information that's helpful, but that's a troubling worry. as i said, they must have known that this next phase of the war in which israel would invade on the ground would happen. i'm told by arab intelligence sources that the avenues of approach into gaza that richard engel was describing in his reporting are heavily mined, have ieds, have anti-tank weapons that have been placed, waiting for just this moment. again, i'm sure the israelis are aware of that and are trying to

deal with it. again, it's just a moment just before the dawn of this battle when i'm glad the israelis are taking a little time to think carefully about these contingencies. >> david, let's get your analysis. there's been mixed messaging, mixed signals about a couple things. one being the role iran may have played here. of course, we know iran backs hamas. hamas wouldn't exist without iran. that's a given. but it is not clear yet if they were directly involved. "the wall street journal" suggests yes, and "the new york times" says no, according to officials. there's also mixed signals as to what is happening out of hezbollah in lebanon. israeli forces said an attack has begun, then they said there may have been a skirmish and we missed what was going on there. it is obviously the fog of war, but what are u.s. officials telling you they think is happening? >> i think their primary concern

right now is to prevent the obvious temptation from various other parties to get into this conflict from happening. the u.s. very much wants to see this as a one front war. if you opened a northern front, attacks over the lebanese border, and an eastern front, attacks from syria, you know, it's a much more difficult war, as has been said. that's the reason our aircraft carrier task force is there, to signal, don't. don't do it. you have more power than you can imagine staring you in the face. but when these conflicts begin, if people see gaza being pounded, they'll want to jump in. there will be enormous pressure and, forgive the term, the arab street. again, i'm pleased to see secretary blinken in the region. this is not a time for diplomacy, exactly, but it is a time for steadying, for conversations. to go to each of the leaders that we know, have worked with

for so many years, and talk about how to restrain the various players, put pressure on hezbollah through indirect channels. on the fundamental question of iran, most analysts i talk to say the iranians are not likely to want to jump into a major conflict with the united states or israel right now. it's just not their style. they like deniable, covert actions. they like sending signals, sending, you know, a few rockets to remind everybody they're there, but they don't want to be in a major, major war, at least at this point from what my sources tell me. >> all right. david ignatius stays with us. coming up, the white house is not ruling out sending u.s. troops to gaza to bring home americans being held hostage by hamas. we'll get an update from department national security adviser jon finefiner. plus, the former israeli ambassador to the united states will join us to explain why he says this war isn't like

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the house majority chose scalise by a vote of 113-99. it is still unclear, though, if he has enough votes to win the speak speakership, because that'd require republicans to accept the results of an election, and that's not their thing. >> republicans seem to be a step closer to electing a new speaker, but it's unclear when a vote will take place on the floor. during a meeting yesterday, louisiana congressman steve scalise defeated ohio congressman jim jordan for the republican nomination to be speaker and replace ousted speaker kevin mccarthy. republicans then delayed a house vote to confirm scalise because he doesn't have the 217, the number of votes he needs. "the new york times" points out, several republican lawmakers

announced they would not back scalise on the house floor without concessions, complaining of a rushed process to choose -- >> a rushed process? >> hello! >> you left the speakership vacant for the first time in american history. >> war is ripping across the middle east. >> do you want to wait, what, until after the next election? >> i mean -- >> oh. >> anyhow, complaining of a rushed process and also voicing skepticism that he could unite their conference. that scalise could. >> who can really? let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany. you know, you had john boehner who basically said, "you know what, i can't deal with these guys. i'm going home. going golfing." >> i'm out. >> "going to bring some merlot and smoke a cigar." paul ryan saying, "i can't deal with these guys. i'm going home." kevin mccarthy, of course, last week said he's not running again. here you have, as you know, here

you have a rite of passage going on for hundreds of years, where a conference or caucus selects its speaker by a majority vote inside the conference. they go to the house floor, and everybody votes for them. that's how it's done, so there will be an orderly process and, actually, work can get done, can people's work can get done, legislation will be passed, and our allies like ukraine and israel can be supported. not here. how long, jackie, are they willing to continue this madness, this chaos, in the only branch of government americans have trusted them with? >> there was, joe, cautious optimism yesterday that lawmakers could potentially rally around at least one of these candidates, steve scalise or jim jordan, after the closed door meeting, where they took a secret ballot on either candidate, and maybe get that done yesterday afternoon. take the vote to the house floor and move on and start focusing

on the real world issues that are blowing up around the house gop conference, as they've essentially been paralyzed without a leader. that quickly proved to be a misguided assessment of the situation. steve scalise, the frontrunner and, i think, clear frontrunner, at least yesterday morning, ended up having far more opposition than i think people realized. there was a little bit of confusion amongst the capitol hill press core because there was this conference rules package that people were debating, that was put forward by chip roy, and there was more opposition to that. i think that's what people were sort of distracted by. there was less realization that, actually, a lot of the opposition was also paired with steve scalise. scalise himself was also whipping against this rules package. that didn't sit well with a lot of members. the more -- i think it was sort of a tinderbox situation. the more republicans that came out of that closed door meeting

in the longwerth building yesterday saying they weren't going to support scalise, some of them who continued to maintain they were going to vote for former house speaker kevin mccarthy, and still had an ax to grind with those eight firebrand republicans who ousted him last week, things quickly deteriorated. now, we're not even sure when a house vote is going to happen or whether jim jordan or scalise is ultimately going to be the nominee. >> yeah. jackie, you had some moderate republicans coming out of that meeting yesterday saying, "i didn't vote for either of them because we shouldn't have gotten rid of kevin mccarthy in the first place. this is a clown somehow, "talking about their own caucus. he is not close, scalise, to the votes he needs. he got 113, but 99 votes are against. how does this change? you have the holdouts not voting for scalise, and those voting against him. when will there be a speaker?

>> if steve scalise is ultimately the nominee and they take the vote to the house floor, which the conference wants to avoid doing until there is some sort of real coalescing around someone, they don't want the same situation they had with mccarthy where they have to take this vote 14 times. it was a very tortured, embarrassing, drawnout process. right now, scalise is facing 20 to 30 people who oppose him. you've seen a litany of complaints, from people like marjorie taylor greene, who says he needs to focus on fighting cancer and might not be equipped to have such a huge and important job during a really important time for house republicans and the party writ large, to people like nancy mace, who say that they don't want someone who used to be a supporter of david duke and the kkk being the f conference. of course, there's still resistance to jim jordan, as well. there were a lot of people yesterday who were saying he is far from the house freedom

caucus guy that, you know, he initially was, is much less of a rabble-rouser. there is some fierce resistance still to these -- from these moderates who feel like he is just too conservative when it comes to fiscal issues. you know, there are -- there's now some rumors of these dark horses coming through, people like maybe tom emmer, pro tem speaker patrick mchenry, who we've been keeping an eye on all along, someone who might benefit from the chaos and emerge unscathed as the speaker. but i think that there are going to be a lot of conversations behind closed doors today before we really see any indication of when the house vote is going to -- house floor vote is going to happen and who the nominee is going to be. >> colorado congressman ken buck said he wouldn't support either scalise or jordan until they could definitively say who won the 2020 election, which he says neither have done to this point. jackie, obviously as the

republicans remain in chaos, the clock is ticking towards both a government shutdown, now just a little over a month away, and, of course, every hour goes by with the u.s. being unable to fully back israel. so on that latter part, the israel piece of this, is there anything in the short term the house can do? there's been speculation about maybe mchenry could lead some measure to get funding going on there. what are the latest talks? is this adding any urgency to the speaker conversation? >> yeah, i mean, this is the problem with the house gop conference. there's lots of urgency. there are lots of very strong opinions. you had lawmakers off the pat this week, the first person i ran into was elise stefanik. i asked about a supplemental aid package to israel and whether or not she'd eventually go along with some of the rumblings. we'd heard of the white house's desire to tie this to aid for ukraine, taiwan, and border security. she, like many others, immediately came out and said q

, "no way. we have enough support to get this through as a standalone package to provide support for israel." few days later, while this was in the pitches, as well, you heard steve scalise tell members he was the person to lead the conference because of his expertise with israel. now, this is sort of dissipated. everyone has very short memories here. while there is a sense of urgency, lots of people coming to the cameras making, you know, fiery statements, at the end of the day, there are not enough people willing to rally around someone and sort of put their politics and their petty grievances behind them to get a speaker and start, you know, getting back to business. >> it is all, all so very petty. "washington post"'s jackie alemany, thank you. we appreciate it, as always.

we have israel, ukraine, the southern border, taiwan. we've got these massive issues before us, willie, that have to be addressed. yet, you have two speaker candidates that were running yesterday that, as ken buck of colorado said, neither one of them have said yet who they believe won the 2020 election. >> oh, my. >> if you want to know where the republican party is -- >> that's where they are. >> -- in 2023, the two leading candidates for speaker, well, neither one of them have said who won the 2020 election. this is -- this party, this is a party that is so lost right now and just wandering around aimlessly in right field. >> yeah, and that's not the fringe. that's leadership. that's the two choices who want to run the caucus in the house of representatives, the united states of america, won't say who won the 2020 election.

think about that for a minute. we've gotten used to it the last couple years, but that is absolutely insane, that they're still running defense, still running interference for donald trump, who is running for president again -- and, by the way, maybe we won't play it, but he truly, yesterday, an insane event. >> yeah. >> he was talking about -- >> oh, we're going to show it. >> -- barack obama is actually running the government, criticizing bibi netanyahu, saying -- i want to make sure i get the quote right -- that hezbollah is, quote, very smart. hezbollah. that's the guy they're defending right now while the sitting president of the united states makes speeches in defense of israel, unequivocal defenses, and looks like a president, frankly, while donald trump is truly, truly appearing to be off the rails and, frankly, insane. >> out of his mind. i mean, praising hezbollah, just like he praised vladimir putin, said he was brilliant after the invasion of ukraine.

all the praise that he's had for president xi in china. always talking about what a brilliant man he is. same thing, of course, with the tyrannical leader of north korea. out of his mind. >> yeah. >> again, the fact that republicans are embracing this guy just is absolutely crazy. here we go. >> this is -- >> hezbollah, "very smart." chinese president xi jinping, dictator who has overseen china's downfall over the past five years, "a very smart man." russian president vladimir putin, "a genius and savvy." north korean leader kim jong-un, who is considered by most human rights organizations to be the most tyrannical, the most oppressive leader in the world, he calls him, "a great leader." look at that. look, that's your republican party right there.

that's your republican party. that's the guy who is in first place in the republican contest to be the next presidential nominee for the gop, while you have two people that are the leaders running for speaker and who still can't tell you who won the 2020 election. it is absolutely crazy. >> you have all these arguments about joe biden and his age. >> please. >> please take a look at him over the past two days. you mentioned taiwan. you mentioned ukraine. you mentioned the situation in israel and the middle east now. joe biden is managing a conflict and an entire world order, and he is doing it with clarity and with context and with a sense of humanity. >> yeah. you know, stack up any -- >> pick your -- >> -- policy press conference that donald trump had.

any, any over four years. compare them to any that biden has had. it's just not even a close call. >> all right. >> biden might stumble. he may stutter. >> he is a stutterer. >> he may speak slowly, lose his train of thought once in a while. that said, unlike donald trump, he knows who is running the government now, and he knows who he ran against in 2020, unlike donald trump, who still thinks -- what is this obsession with obama, by the way? >> always been obsessed. >> always obsessed. >> remember where it all started. >> always obsessed. he was bragging about beating barack obama in 2016. said he was way ahead of barack obama in the polls right now. he has this singular obsession, willie, with barack obama. not a good look. >> a founding father of the birther movement, so that was an obsession with barack obama. i don't hang out in the dark corners of the internet where the former president of the united states does, but there is

an idea where it is barack obama, the former president, who is running the government now, and donald trump made the case at a rally, while criticizing the prime minister of israel and praising hezbollah. >> great. >> that would be a news flash to the former president, who is probably on a yacht right now somewhere in bali. he has not had time to run the government. he's been traveling. still ahead, israel is now preparing for the next stage of the war against hamas as the conflict enters its sixth day. we're following all the angles from israel to the white house and beyond. what we're now learning about iran's role in all of this. department national security adviser jon finer will give us an update in a few moments. also, some really shocking outcomes in major league baseball in the playoffs last night. we're going to show you those. a team that many considered to be, you know, the favorite to win the world series, out.

that and much more when "morning joe" returns. then there was the inevitable attack, four days later, which i predicted, and then two nights ago, i read all biden's security people. can you imagine? national defense people. they said, "gee, i hope hezbollah doesn't attack from the north because that's the most vulnerable spot." i said, "wait a minute. you know, hezbollah is very smart. they're all very smart." because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven, full-spectrum relief for all bipolar 1 symptoms. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about unusual changes in behavior

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to the iranians, be careful. >> that was president biden yesterday at the white house, reaffirming his support for israel and warning iran against interfering. let's bring in former israeli ambassador to the united states, michael oren. he joins us now from tel-aviv. and "the washington post"'s david ignatius has the first question. david? >> so, ambassador oren, i want to ask about one of prime minister netanyahu's key statements, which is that hamas in the campaign that's coming will be, in his words, crushed and eliminated. i want to ask you what israel envisions as the future governance in gaza. you left gaza nearly 20 years ago and were happy to get out. i assume israel doesn't want to

own gaza again, but who, mr. ambassador, do you imagine running gaza once hamas is crushed? >> good morning, david. good to be with you. good to see you. mika, joe, good to see you, too. very tough time here, as you know. a word about the president's speech. at a time all of israel is in mourning, we're all shocked and dismayed by people we know, families that have been wiped out, babies who have been dismembered, decapitated, every horror. to have the president of the united states get up there and give a speech like that -- and i've been in this business a very long time, david, as you have -- i think you'd agree, i've never heard a speech like that in my life. the president of the united states to the people of israel. we're all in front of the television crying, frankly. we're all very grateful, really very grateful. it's a great question, david. i'm not a spokesman for the government anymore, not in office, but it has always been an issue.

every time we've gone to war with hamas, and this is now the sixth round, the same question comes up. okay. you don't want to go back to the status quo where we're paying off hamas with qatari money, allowing workers to come in so, perhaps, hamas would have something to lose, about 20,000 gazan workers were coming into israel every day. you know, it's a lot of money by certain gaza standards. good salaries, social benefits. apparently, hamas does not operate according to the cost benefit analysis. they have their own jihadist universe in which, you know, killing babies and raping women is the most important thing they can do. then the question is, okay, you go and rid gaza of hamas, then israel is left at the end holding the keys to gaza. you say, who is going to take these keys? are we going back to being a situation where we're occupying gaza strip and our soldiers are killed every week? we've been there. i spent, myself, years as a soldier patrolling the alleys of

gaza. we don't want to be there. i think the most important thing right now is for the government of israel t engage in a very intimate and detailed conversation with our american allies but also with our new arab allies, with the saudis with whom we hope to make a peace soon, with the signatories of the abraham accords, about perhaps some type of international, highly arab-center force who could take over from gaza and oversee its reconstruction, and oversee the building there of an alternative leadership, perhaps involving elements of the palestinian authority. i think that'd be very important. we have to think about this now, not in two months from now. >> mr. ambassador, that's a very helpful response, the clearest i've heard. i want to ask you to address what, in some ways, is the most vexing part of this situation ahead, which is how the israeli defense force can go into gaza

and crush its adversary without killing the perhaps 150 hostages who are there. just give us a sense of how the israeli military is going to approach that really nightmarish problem. >> there's no end of authority questions here, right? there are 2 million people, palestinian civilians in gaza. we have to deal with that issue, as well. >> yes. >> certainly, we have no interest in hurting those civilians and certainly preserving the lives of our hostages, also american citizens, and how to do that? on a purely strategic level, it'd be the equivalent of, say, on 9/11, al qaeda had taken hostages, how would america treat the situation? would it stop them responding militarily from the attacks of 9/11? we have to defend ourselves, israel has to defend itself, and at the same time, lives are at stake. i know families whose children,

loved ones are held hostage. it is intensely personal, not abstract in any way. what we have to do, we have special forces, as you know. this is their job. this is what they're trained to do. the greatest challenge will be to locate the position of the other hostages. you may remember years ago, one israeli soldier taken captive back in 2010. he was held prisoner for five years. we couldn't locate him. we didn't know. hamas has this underground warrant of headquarters and tunnels, very difficult. that's going to be a huge channel, intelligence channels. we have detection and knowing what is in the tunnel and shared the technology with homeland security. we'll use it to the best we can. we have to counterbalance, on one hand, our tremendous need to defend ourselves against this horrendous, barbaric threat, barbaric, medieval barbaric threat. on the other hand, to take into

consideration the lives of these hostages, every single one of whom is precious to us. >> ambassador, good morning. forgive me if i interrupt you. we're awaiting a joint news conference in tel-aviv from prime minister netanyahu and prime minister blinken. but you did mention the barbarism we saw, especially in the kibbutzes. this is a personal story to you, including a family slaughtered, including their young children. >> yes. it's a woman who grew up with my children, part of the community. she's -- she was in the scouts with my kids, studied karate. a beautiful family. we see pictures like this every day. yesterday, i learned that the rabbi who married my daughter, wonderful man, his two sons, they're reserve officers.

as soon as they heard about the fighting, they simply left their families, put on the uniform, and went down south. neither of them came home. they're being buried right now as we're talking. so -- the pain is unbearable. going back to what i said before about the president's speech, can you imagine what it meant for us to hear that? >> the stories that we're hearing, and i understand the emotion of this. i can't understand it, frankly, but we're hearing these stories and seeing these faces, and especially when there are children of that age involved, it's unthinkable. and we certainly understand the emotions that are coming out through you right now on behalf of an entire country, and i wonder how significant this moment is because of the extent of the barbarism, in terms of the israeli response. how will the way this act of barbarism was carried out impact the response from israel here?

>> you know, i know i speak for david here, too, we learn to read between the lines of political speeches and diplomatic speeches. in the middle of the president's speech, there was a line about how, you know, the u.s. military operates according to law. we know the israeli military operates according to law, too. very much in distinction to hamas, which does not. what he was basically saying, as i i understood it, was i'm going on a limb here. i'm going against a dysfunctional congress. i'm going against a bipartisan support for non-involvement in middle east military entanglements. i'm doing all of this, but you, israel, help me to help you by making sure you limit to the greatest possible extent civilian casualties, collateral damage. i understood that clearly. it's going to be a huge challenge, as mentioned before. we're going into a densely populated area. 2 million palestinians. the area is booby trapped, mined.

hamas people don't wear uniforms. it is difficult to establish a civilian from a terrorist in these situations. i've been in them. i know how difficult this is. israel will take every possible measure to avoid that. now, you know, the air force is operating, they drop leaflets, sent sms texts, sending a knock thing, non-explosive missile that hits the top of the building and lets people know it may be targeted and they can get out. that's the best we can do at this point. and discuss various ways of humanitarian corridors and support for, you know, essential food stuff and medicines. i'm sure that'll be taken care of. but, at the same time, it's going to be a great challenge. here's my -- i want to get to your question. i'm not dodging it in any way. there is a tremendous amount of anger here. i've been, the last couple days, tending funerals and mourning sessions, and i talk to the families. many are saying, you know, we want vengeance. we want -- we're so, so angry.

it's going to be a challenge for any society. if you remember what america was like on september 12th, 2001, that sense of anger. we're going to have to control that the best we can and our soldiers. so many of the soldiers, like me, they've known people who have been massacres and taken hostage and dismembered and raped. that is going to be a huge challenge for israel as a society, as a member of the civilized world. >> mr. ambassador, we've been hearing for some time about a divide in israel. the united states obviously divided politically, but the same thing with israel. i have a friend, very close to members of the government, who has been warning me for about a year that this split between the professionals, the intel professionals, the secular, more secular military and intel

leaders, and people around benjamin netanyahu, the more orthodox leaders without the military and intel experience, was causing a great divide. somebody put it to me six months ago like this, "all of your pilots are secular. all of your mechanics are ultra orthodox. there is this divide, this split." we saw it in the protests over the supreme court. how -- how much has that contributed to netanyahu's government being caught off guard? how much has that contributed to the problems we've seen over the past week? do you think that this delicate framework will be put back together in a way to protect israel moving forward? >> well, clearly, there's going to be investigations after this, and responsibility will be assigned. my assumption is that no small

amount of heads will roll here. but it's too early for that. right now, we have to focus on the emergency at hand and defending ourselves. having said that, there are probably many sources for hamas' attack and iran's backing of it. iran, hamas, everyone in the middle east saw our internal divisions, and it was divisions over the judicial reform. my mother is 95 years old. she was a family therapist. she used to say the presenting problem is not the problem. our presenting problem was the judicial issue. the government's far-reaching judicial reform package, which i opposed. but beneath that, as you mentioned, joe, it was divisions from jews from eastern backgrounds, jews from western backgrounds, the center. there is a periphery which is less developed here, and very few demonstrations on the periphery. most of the demonstrations were in the developed areas.

and the social. it was certainly a class issue, as well, absolutely right. multiple divisions. people saw that weakness. they saw america's reluctance to get involved in further entanglements, particularly in the middle east. the iranians were afraid of the impending peace agreement between saudi arabia and israel. they didn't want to face a saudi-israel strategic front against iran. they were afraid of saudi nuclearization. all of these issues played into it. they saw weakness on one hand, and they saw opportunities on the other. if there's any silver lining to this, any at all, it's that this horrible nightmare has brought us together again. we had a national unity government declared last night for the first time since the mid 1980s. we -- hamas has forced us to remind ourselves of who we are

and what we are. i've seen it across. you cannot imagine what the outpouring of love for the army is, the stacks of food and ridiculous junk food piling up around every army position. all the volunteerism, they have reminded us of who we are. it's tragic that that's what it took, but i hope it's retained. i hope that when this nightmare is behind us, we will continue to know who we are. we are one people. a fractious, sometimes impossible people, right? we're yelling at each other all the time. yet, and yet, we are that, we are a family. we're going to stick together through this. >> mike, as we talk about the stakes here, i want to show that photograph again of the beautiful young family that ambassador oren was talking about and remembering here. that's parents, 35 years old, twin 6-year-old daughters, and a

4-year-old son. tamar, the mother in the picture, texted friends and said, "i'm okay. we're in our shelter. we're going to be okay." never heard from again, until later, they were discovered murdered. for anyone saying israel had it coming, as repulsive posts and comments suggested, or there is what aboutism here, there are two sides to consider, look at the faces of those people. >> listening to ambassador oren articulate and talk about israel, it's a renewed reminder to all of us here in america that israel is a small country. it's an intimate country inside of a renewed sense of cohesion, i'm sure, as the ambassador pointed out. ambassador oren, i'd like once more to go back to president biden's speech yesterday. as you know, because you're intimately familiar with the american press, the american media, the way we cover things, there's an extraordinary focus

on the president's age in some of the news reports that we read daily here in this country. oh, we have -- >> mike, i'm sorry. i'm going to interrupt you. i want to go to the press conference with prime minister netanyahu and antony blinken, who made a visit after the attacks over the weekend. let's listen. >> mr. secretary, my good friend tony, thank you for your important visit here today. thank you. thank president biden. thank you to the american people for your incredible support for israel. in our war against the barbarians of hamas. i thank you in english. i want to thank you in hebrew, as well. [ speaking in hebrew ]

[ speaking in hebrew ] [ speaking in hebrew ] mr. secretary, your visit is

another tangible example of america's unequivocal support for israel. hamas has shown itself to be an enemy of civilization. the massacring of young people in an outdoor music festival, the butchering of entire families, the murder of parents in front of their children, and the murder of children in front of their parents, the burning of people alive, the beheadings, the kidnappings. of a young boy, not only kidnapped, molested, hurt, attacked, and the sickening display of celebrating these horrors, the celebration and glorification of evil.

president biden was absolutely correct in calling this sheer evil. hamas is isis. just as isis was crushed, so, too, will hamas be crushed. and hamas should be treated exactly the way isis was treated. they should be spit out from the community of nations. no leader should meet them. no country should harbor them. those that do should be sanctioned. tony, my friend, i say to you, i say to all of us, there will be many difficult days ahead, but i have no doubt that the forces of civilization will win. the reason that's true is

because we understand what is the first prerequisite of victory. it's what you just said in our meeting. moral clarity. this is a time, a particular time, a special time that we must stand tall, proud, and united against evil. tony, you are taking that stand. america is taking that stand. thank you for being here today. thank you, america, for standing with israel today, tomorrow, and always. >> thank you. mr. prime minister, i'm grateful to be back in israel in this incredibly difficult moment, for this nation, but, in fact, for the entire world.

if you'll permit me, personal aside. i come before you not only as the united states secretary of state but also as a jew. my grandfather, maurice blinken, fled pilgrims in russia. my stepfather, samuel pizar, survived concentration camps, auschwitz, mydonic. prime minister, i understand on a personal level the harrowing echoes that hamas' massacres carry for israeli jews, indeed, for jews everywhere. i also come before you as a husband and father of young children. it's impossible for me to look at the photos of families killed, such as the mother,

father, and three small children murdered as they sheltered in their home in kibbutz near ooz, and not think of my own children. this was just one of hamas' countless acts of terror. in a litany of brutality and inhumanity that, yes, brings to mind the worst of isis, they be slaughtered, bodies desecrated, young people burned alive, women raped, parents executed in front of their children, children in front of their parents. how do we even understand this, to digest this? and, yet, at the same time, at the same time that we've been

shocked by the depravity of hamas, we've also been inspire bid the bravety of israel's citizen. the grandfather who drove to a kibbutz under siege, armed with a pistol, and rescued his kids and grand kids. the mother who died shielding her teenage son with her body, giing her life to save his, giving him life for a second time. the volunteer security teams on the kibbutzes who rallied to defend their friends and neighbors, despite being heavily outnumbered, and who are lifted by the solidarity of the israeli people, demonstrated in the long lines of people giving blood. in the hundreds of thousands of reservists who mobilized, some rushing home from abroad. people around the country opening their homes to fellow citizens displaced from the

south. the people of israel have long and rightly prided themselves on their self-reliance, on their ability to defend themselves, even when the odds are stacked against them. the message that i bring to israel is this, you may be strong enough on your own to defend yourself, but as long as america exists, you will never, ever have to. we will always be there by your side. that's the message that president biden delivered to the prime minister from the moment this crisis began. it's the message that i and my other colleagues in the government have delivered to our israeli counterparts on a daily, even an hourly basis. it's the message that i bring with me to our discussions today, and it's what i'll affirm when i meet with the members of israeli's newly formed national emergency government. we welcome the government's creation and the unity and resolve that it reflects across

israel's society. we're delivering on our word, supplying ammunition, intercepters to replenish israel's iron dome, alongside other defense material. for shipments of u.s. military support from already arrived in israel and more is on the way. as israel's defense needs evolve, we will work with congress to make sure they're met. i can tell you,ing bipartisan s. here in israel and everywhere, we will reaffirm the crystal clear warning that president biden issued yesterday to any adversary, state or non-state thinking of taking advantage of the current crisis to attack israel. don't. the united states has israel's back. we've deployed the world's largest aircraft carrier to the eastern mediterranean. we bolstered the presence of

u.s. fighter aircraft in the region. we're providing other support, as well. we continue working closely with israel to secure the release of the men, women, children, elderly people taken hostage by hamas. we're pursuing intensive diplomacy throughout the region to prevent the conflict from spreading. i'll be doing that over the course of my trip in the coming days. too often in the past, leaders have equivocated in the face of terrorist attacks against israel and its people. that's why we've been adamant with all countries in the wake of these attacks, there is no excuse. there is no justification for these atrocities. you heard the prime minister say it. this is, this must be a moment for moral clarity. the failure to unambiguously condemn terrorism puts at risk

not only people in israel but people everywhere. look at what just happened. individuals from 36 countries killed or missing in the aftermath of hamas' attacks. europe, asia, africa, the americas, no region has escaped hamas' bloody reach. anyone who wants peace and justice must condemn hamas' reign of terror. we know hamas doesn't represent the palestinian people or their legitimate aspirations to live with equal measures of security, freedom, justice, opportunity, and dignity. we know hamas, instead of promoting the well-being of its citizens, rules repressively and dedicates the resources it has to terror tunnels and rockets. we know hamas didn't commit its heinous acts with the interests of palestinian people in mind. we know hamas does not stand for

the future that palestinians want for themselves and for their children. hamas has only one agenda, to destroy israel and to murder jews. no country can or would tolerate the slaughter of its citizens or simply return to the conditions that allowed it to take place. israel has the right, indeed the obligation, to defend itself and to ensure that this never happens again. the prime minister and i discussed, how israel does this matters. we democracies distinguish ourselves from terrorists by striving for a different standard, even when it's difficult, and holding ourselves to account when we fall short. our humanity, the value that we place on human life and human dignity, that's what makes us who we are. we count them among our greatest strength. that's why it's so important to

take every possible precaution to avoid harming civilians. that's why we mourn the loss of every innocent life. civilians of every faith, every nationality, who have been killed. tragically, a number of innocent lives claimed by hamas' heinous attacks continues to rise. among those, we know at least 25 american citizens were killed. we join families in israel, in the united states, around the world, in mourning their immeasurable loss. nearly 15 years ago, my stepfather, who i eluded to earlier, samuel pizar came here to perform the mourner's prayer that he wrote to accompany leonard bernstein's third symphony. reflecting on the unspeakable horrors he endures as a boy in the nazi concentration camps, he

wrote, "man, though created in your image and endowed with the freedom to choose between good and evil, remains capable of the worst, as of the best, of hatred, as of love, of madness as of genius. in this moment, where evil, hatred, and madness have once more taken so many innocent lives, we must stand together, resol to confront what is worst among humanity with what is best. we must provide an alternative to the vision of violence and fear, nihilism and terror presented by hamas. that is what the united states will do, standing with israel, working together with its people, and all those in this region who remain committed to the vision of a more peaceful,

more integrated, more secure, more prosperous middle east. thank you very much. >> all right. we're watching this happen live in tel-aviv. that is secretary of state blinken along with -- standing with israel's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, saying that he comes to him as the secretary of state, the united states of america, but also as a jew and as a father. talked a little bit about how difficult it is to comprehend the savagery of the hamas terrorists. he made the link between hamas and isis when it comes to the depravity of what has happened and also talked about the echoes of history for the jewish part-time. finally, he praised the unity government that netanyahu is putting together, and u.s. support, he says, is there.

more is on the way. as the situation evolves, more support will come to israel. the u.s. will be there. ambassador oren, you had said that president biden's remarks yesterday were remarkable. what do you make of what just happened there? >> speechless. i'm speechless. the diplomatic profession is a platitudal professional. we're big on platitudes. both these remarks by the prime minister and secretary of state blinken were platitude free. i don't recall a press conference like this. i don't recall many press conferences. i think this one will be in memorial, will be remembered for a great many years on so many different levels. okay, the personal touch, with what tony blinken talked about, his stepfather, of course, a survivor of the holocaust, his grandfather, his feelings as a jew. i don't recall anything like that.

but, again, there was content. the reiteration of the commitment of the united states to actually use force at a time when, really, there's no bipartisan support for that in the united states. very difficult, a heavy lift, as we say, a very heavy lift. a warning to iran and to hezbollah, not veiled, and then the caveat, which was spelled out more specifically by the secretary of state than what was intimated by the president in his remarks. was, you know, help us to help you by limiting as much as possible collateral damage on the palestinian civilian side. if that message wasn't internalized, you know, during the president's remarks, it is spelled out here and certainly noted. it was just a remarkable speech. david, you know, you and i have been around a long time. i don't know if you remember anything like that ever. >> yeah. david, let me ask you to respond. how unique was that speech,

david ignatius? >> i agree with ambassador oren. it was very powerful. secretary blinken spoke with the very best and clearest american voice, the voice of moral clarity when he spoke as a jew, spoke as a father, spoke as a son. you could hear just the crystal clear values that he was expressing. and i would just note that the same tone for me was present in president biden's remarks yesterday. it was the intense personal commitment to israel to what the struggle is about, to the suffering, and when president biden or secretary blinken say, "we're with you," because they speak really from the heart, it carries great power. >> david ignatius, thank you. former israeli ambassador to the united states, mike oren, thank you, as well. we appreciate your coming on.

willie? >> thank you, gentlemen. joining us now, white house principal deputy national security adviser jon finer. thanks for joining us this morning. we're all just absorbing that historic moment between secretary of state blinken and the prime minister, netanyahu, of israel. can you expand a little bit more on the position of the united states here? secretary saying, as long as america exists, we will always be there by your side, talking about israel. what does that mean now practically in terms of support? >> well, i certainly couldn't put it any better than secretary blinken did just now or that president biden did yesterday, the day before, in his remarks about solidarity with israel. there's obviously a deep cultural and emotional connection between our government and theirs, between our people and the israeli people, but the support the united states is providing for israel goes well beyond reassurance, encouragement and comforting. as you know, the president has

authorized, and we have now provided a significant enhancement in security assistance to israel. munitions, other items that have been on their list of needs as they conduct this operation in gaza in response to the atrocious terrorist attacks that have taken place. we've also moved significant u.s. forces to the region to send an unmistakable signal, that no one else should contemplate getting involved in the conflict. >> the fleets moving into the eastern mediterranean now. let's talk about the hostages, 150 of them perhaps held inside gaza. some of them, you all have suggested, are americans. what does that mean for people watching here at home in terms of a possible united states involvement, navy s.e.a.l.s, green berets going in to rescue them? >> this is one of the most difficult aspects of what will be a difficult operational environment in gaza for israeli forces. an area that is pretty small, where 2.3 million people at

least are residents. densely populate and had a difficult place to fight. an easier place, unfortunately, to hide hostages. israelis had challenges with this over the years, when other israelis have been taken captive and brought into gagaza. there is an intelligence challenge, how do you find these people? if you do find them, how do you locate them, negotiate their release or try operationally to remove them? at this point, we are not contemplating u.s. boots on the ground involved in the mission. what we have done is sent experts from across our government to the region to consult and advise with their israeli counterparts, to make sure they find the best way to go about trying to get these people home. >> jon, good morning. it's jonathan lemire. we should note some news there from the secretary of state, saying the number of americans killed in israel, the number has now grown to 25. we've been talking this morning about the lack of speaker of the house of representatives and how that is going to hinder the

united states' ability to get aid to israel in this time of need. can you give us an update as to what the administration can do now, between now and then? what resources do you have? what ability do you have to send things in this interim period? when will that run out if there isn't a speaker put in place? >> everything we've been doing until now has been without, obviously, any supplemental appropriations. we have been able to provide significant support and believe we can continue that without additional appropriations in the immediate term. that is not unlimited. it is our strong view, and the president said this, as has jake sullivan from the white house podium, that we'd like to work with congress on a package that can provide additional support broadly for u.s. partners, including israel. we'll have more to say about that as soon as it's possible, as soon as the house chooses a speaker, so we can actually go about getting to this business. >> jon, nearly 20 years ago, you covered the war in iraq for "the

washington post". you are intimately familiar with how brutal fallujah was. house to house, operationally, militarily, there is no more dangerous, combustible element than house to house operations. when it comes to gaza, you've indicated no american boots on the ground is planned so far, but what are we doing, what can we do technologically and militarily to assist in such a brutal environment in gaza, assist the israelis? >> as you indicate, i did spend some time in iraq, also in gaza in 2009 during the israeli-hamas war during that period. this is just an incredibly difficult place to fight. the united states can provide intelligence support, can provide advice, can provide significant material, and already are, but the israelis will be the ones in the lead. it is a challenging, difficult place. but taking a step back, i will

say, the conversations that we're having, how you can go about conducting this operation while looking for hostages, while minimizing damage to civilian lives, is sort of the polar opposition of the conversation that takes place on the other side. where hamas conducted an operation that was intended to take as many civilian lives as possible and is now hiding among a population that it is not going to any lengths at all to try to avoid harming. in fact, on some level, they probably believe harm to that civilian population helps their cause, because it will bring the attention of the world in a way that is more negative. i think it is important to make the point that we do this a different way from those on the other side of this conflict. we'll continue to. the president has been clear about that. he's had direct conversations about that with prime minister netanyahu. there are going to be hard days ahead, and i don't want to disabuse you of that. >> we're getting word after the press conference that secretary blinken will meet tomorrow in jordan with the palestinian president, abbas.

what will that be? >> the west bank is going to be a challenging aspect of this period going forward. i think it is president abbas' goal that the west bank remains calm. it is the goal of the government of israel and the united states. until now, things remained relatively quiet throughout the eruption of this conflict across the border into gaza. we hope it stays that way. i believe that president abbas and secretary blinken will discuss how that can be best done, what support we can offer to the palestinian authority, as they continue to help provide security in the west bank. >> the meeting scheduled for tomorrow in amman along with king abdullah. secretary adviser jon finer, thank you for being here this morning. >> thank you. ahead on "morning joe," continuing coverage of the war. former supreme allied commander of nato, retired four star admiral stavridis joining us with his analysis. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. oe." we'll be right back.

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babies slaughtered. bodies desecrated. young people burned alive, women raped, parents executed in front of their children, children in front of their parents. how are we even to understand this? >> u.s. secretary of state antony blinken just moments ago discussing israel's unimaginable loss at the hands of hamas terrorists. let's bring in former u.s. senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. and chief white house correspondent for "the new york times," peter baker. peter, i'll start with you. we've been talking about the remarks we just saw by the secretary of state and also benjamin netanyahu just moments ago. but yesterday, president biden made it very clear that he wasn't giving up on trying to bring hostages home, american

hostages, israeli hostages. can you talk about the complexity of that right now? >> very complex, obviously. we don't yet know exactly how many americans are being held. the last number the white house gave us was that there are 17 americans unaccounted for. it's unclear whether some of those now may be included in that revised death toll that secretary blinken just gave us in jerusalem of 25. that's three more than they gave us yesterday. it's possible some of these 17 are not hostage but are, in fact, simply still being identified as casualties. in fact, john kirby, the white house spokesman, told us yesterday that the number, even within the 17 who are actually being held hostage, they believe is very small, less than a handful, i think is the words he used. it may just be, you know, one, two, three, four, something like that. however many it is, obviously, it's enormously complicated. you heard jon finer just tell you now, no u.s. boots on the ground. they're going to defer to the israelis, if there has been to

be rescue missions. there are dual citizens in israel, so there is a dual, shared responsibility in that sense with israel to figure out how to proceed. if they're held in gaza at the moment, you know, it's hard to see what they do to get them out, short of a full-scale ground entry. that's something that has been contemplated and, at the same time, obviously, has enormous complications and consequences. >> claire mccaskill, i want to get your thoughts on the overall situation, but also politically, just looking at the state of our politics today, with no speaker of the house, how do you think that impacts our ability to function as a government and support israel? president biden very clear that the united states stands with israel, but is our congress in a state where it can function to do so? >> yeah, it's quite a split screen right now, isn't it?

the contrast between the two parties. the republican party has a senator that has effectively blocked the most important leadership of our military. the republican house is so busy with their infighting, they are allowing there to be a silent voice from the house of representatives around funding and appropriations, of not just our military but of important aid to both ukraine and israel. you have a president of the united states who is obviously performing with context and experience and a seriousness and an empathy that i think most americans would admire if they were being truthful, regardless of what party they call themselves a member of. then you have the former

president who, in the days following these atrocities, is criticizing israel, criticizing israel, saying they're not tough enough and, you know, they have problems, and praising hezbollah, who is a kissing cousin to hamas and all of the atrocities that have been performed. so it is quite a split screen. i do think it's going to do lasting damage, especially if the house cannot get its act together, and it doesn't appear right now they're even close to unifying behind a leader, much less unifying behind israel. >> claire mentioned those comments from the former president of the united states. it's important to highlight them because if he were re-elected again, this is how he feels about israel. this is how he feels about hezbollah. you should know that. former president donald trump saying this about israeli prime minister netanyahu, criticizing him for not being prepared for the surprise attack by hamas.

last night, at an event in florida, yes, praising hezbollah. >> we have to protect israel, there's no choice. and do we have to do it? he has been hurt very badly because of what's happened here. he was not prepared. he was not prepared, and israel was not prepared. and under trump, they wouldn't have had to be prepared. >> was the prime minister -- >> who would have thought their intelligence wouldn't have been able to pick this up? thousands of people were involved. thousands of people knew about it, and they let this slip by. that was not a good thing for him or for anybody. >> if the election wasn't rigged, there would be nobody thinking about going into israel. then there was the inevitable attack, four days later, which i predicted, and then two nights ago, i read all of biden's security people, can you imagine? national defense people, they said, "gee, i hope hezbollah doesn't attack from the north because that's the most vulnerable spot."

i said, "wait a minute, hezbollah is very smart. they're all very smart." >> hezbollah is very smart. they're all very smart. mike barnicle, he also went on to criticize benjamin netanyahu. apparently, it is personal, because netanyahu took some credit years ago for the killing of the iranian general that the trump administration took out. he didn't like that he didn't get full credit. that's part of his criticism. in this moment, when we're showing pictures of families slaughtered in their houses and israelis weeping, looking for some kind of response and retaliation here, redemption, donald trump is attacking netanyahu and praising hezbollah. >> you know, willie, there are no words really to describe what we're looking at as a nation, and, peter baker, i wouldn't ask you to venture an editorial opinion on what we just say, but i would ask you to comment on the split screen all of america has witnessed in the last couple of days.

we've seen the president of the united states speak quite emotionally about israeli. we've seen the secretary of state speak quite emotionally and sensibly about what's happening in israel right now. so i would ask you to comment on the fact that experience does count. we all know how old the president is, but experience does count. dignity does count. awareness of america's role in the world on the global stage does count. the fact that a human being like the president or the secretary of state can so closely identify with pain and loss and articulate it does count. do you agree? >> i was struck. i was in the state dining room two days ago for the president's speech, and watched him yesterday again with jewish leaders visiting the white house. i was struck by how personal it

does seem. the speech tuesday that the president gave was as angry as i've ever seen him in public as president. he was offended at what had taken place. he gave an accounting of the atrocities. he used words like sickening and brutality and, you know, he was viscerally upset about it. standing behind him was tony blinken, who looked about as grim as i've ever seen him. moments afterwards, jake sullivan, the national security adviser, who i think was emotional in describing what happened. of course, john kirby on the air on cnn the other day, likewise, choked up. i think this is personal. it is personal for a lot of people in this administration. it is very human. it's a message from the top. president biden, whatever else you think of his strengths or weaknesses, one of his political assets over the years has been his empathy, his ability to connect with people who are enduring great loss. that's, of course, a result of his own family experience. he talked about that yesterday with the jewish community

leaders. he said, my loss is not the same as what's happening there, but i understand loss and how hard it is. that's how he connects. he is feeling this very personally. our friends at "politico" report this morning the speech he gave on tuesday, he is the one who personally, you know, hardened it up in his condemnation of hamas. any equivocation was taken out. he has allowed no daylight between himself and prime minister netanyahu at this time of crisis. doesn't mean they don't disagree. they have had their disagreements. but in this time of crisis, he wants to be clear, there is no daylight between him and israel. >> on that point, part of the in the last couple of days i'm told by someone close to the former president is netanyahu praised president biden. trump simply couldn't stand for that, and so claire, why don't you put this all in big context for us here? what we're seeing from the republican party, where we have donald trump out there not just mixing up facts, but praising

hezbollah, attacking our ally at a time of war, criticizing netanyahu. we have the republican house being unable to come together for a speaker, and i agree. people who i talk to say they're not close. this could stretch for days, if not, into next week. we also, of course, because of that bickering, we have an inability as a nation to send israel the aid it needs and that's not even getting to ukraine. tell us right now though, what this republican party here from washington, what it's telling the rest of the world in a time of crisis. >> well, they're basically admitting they can't lead which, you know, if you were paying attention, you kind of figured that out because so many of them have been, you know, kneeling down in front of donald trump, you know, an impeached, an indicted, and obviously someone who has never even met the truth, someone who is so self-absorbed that they don't really care about our allies or the national security of the

country. so it is -- this is really just kind of a moment of -- of clarity about how bad the republican party has become in terms of its ability to lead in this country. i am shocked that there aren't more republicans coming out and calling out the house members that are refusing to accept the results of their internal elections yesterday. those that are now deciding, oh, no. i'm too mad. i want to have kevin mccarthy back or i'm too mad. i want jim jordan. they're doing this in the face of this international crisis where our best friend and the most reliable democracy and the most dangerous neighborhood in the world is under attack? what does that tell americans about their priorities and their ability to unite at a time of crisis?

so it is, i think, really telling that it has, you know, just hollowed out. donald trump and his followers have hollowed out the republican party. typically the republican party would be first in line to say, put everything else aside. we've got to support our friends who support freedom and democracy, but you've got many of them now praising thugs and despites and putin and hezbollah, and it's beyond shocking. it's guys gusting. >> claire mccaskill and peter baker, thank you for your insights this morning. we'll move to the raw reactions from jewish students at m.i.t. in cambridge heartbroken over the horrific accounts of violence during the hamas terrorist attacks in israel. >> my heart is there. my friends are there. my family is there.

i have not slept, and i have not barely ate in the past days because i wake up at calls at night when my brother tells me he's scared. >> when people are injured and raped, and heinous acts happen back in hi country, i feel like it's my sister. my sister being raped, my brother being kidnapped even though any immediate family might be okay. my brother and my cousin, they're not. >> so this comes made fallout at harvard university over the student groups that supported a letter blaming israel for the hamas terrorist attacks. some cs are urging harvard to release the names of the people and the 34 student organizations who signed that letter so they can make sure they don't ever hire them. meanwhile, the university's paper, "the harvard crimson" reports members of the student

groups he been victims of doxxing whi whe personal information has been made public. at least 8 of the 34 student groups have withdrawn their signatures from the letter originally written by a palestine solidarity committee. joining us now, the president and ceo of halel international adam lieman. this is the largest jewish organization in the world, serving more than 140,000 jewish students each year at 850 colleges and universities. so first of all, tell us your reaction to what is going on at harvard and what they need to do now. >> yeah. thank you, mika. thank you for having me on the show, and taking this issue seriously. what has been happening at harvard is really from our point of view, beyond distressing.

even if we sit to the side and say we should come back and talk about how students can have so little empathy and recognition of the vile terrorism that resulted in the atrocities and impacted so many innocent men, women, children, elderly civilians in israel. the administration failing in the first instance to step up and firmly and clearly call out the terrorism and how it does impact not only israelis, but jewish students everywhere who have relationships as we saw from the earlier clip with those who were impacted, and authentic relationships to the state of israel, and with the second try still coming out with a tepid statement that doesn't show the students at harvard that it is not okay to celebrate terrorism,

and it is not okay to in that context, try to turn this into a political issue. it is not a political issue. >> right. >> when we see the victims as they were in the horrible images from israel over the weekend. >> you know, university campuses are supposed to be a space where ideas are exchanged and people should exercise free speech and learn from their disagreements and having said all that, racism and other things are not acceptable, and i believe this falls into that category, and so my question is, what's a constructive way forward to deal with what happened at harvard that would be constructive rather than destructive? >> yeah. no, great question, and in our work at hillel, we are about bridge-building and we are about building up strong -- not only jewish student communities, but relationships between those jewish student communities and

all the other communities on campus. we do want to be constructive. to do so, we think we need the partnership of senior administrators at harvard and at every campus, and we need them to do a few things. number one, they do need to speak out. this shouldn't be so hard. for one of joe's alma maters, the university of florida, i thought the president said it beautifully. this isn't hard to call out. what has been so upsetting and atrocious in terms of the conduct of the terrorist organization, and that doesn't proclude them then talking about other issues. we need to speak out, and we need administrators and we would love to see members of other student communities showing up for jewish students. we have organized already hundreds of vigils and rallies on beautiful events on campuses around north america and around the world, and it is so powerful when administrators and members

of other backgrounds and communities show up to join in those programs and events. jewish students who have been impacted and really traumatized then feel that support, and finally, we need our administration partners to work with us to protect jewish students. the issues of threats on campus are real. we have seen such an uptick in harassment, in margmarginalizat. even just in recent days we have had hallils vandalized and the hard situation was a piece of paper. toda -- 34 groups signed on. today, a group called justice for palestine has offered a day of resistance promoting that all across campus. they're marketing for this day, and they have a picture of one of the terrorists from hamas hanggliding into the fest equal where 260 young people were slaughtered. so we have got to do better. we need our administration

partners to do better as well. >> yeah, adam. good morning. we've seen that on the social media posts from these groups as well, adding the parachute in, and of course, some of the terrorists from hamas took hang gliders into that music festival. you asked the question. why is this so hard? if you can't come out quickly and condemn the murder of children, the burning alive of elderly citizens and everything else we have been hearing about for the last couple of days, i guess the question is from the presidents and the administrators, they're the adults. it's their school. why are they so hesitant to come out and condemn something that should be easy to condemn when they put out news story statements with no issue. what is your sense of why this is so difficult? some of these schools -- not all of you as you say, some of these schools, it's difficult for them to condemn from the leadership. >> i will pick up where you left

off. there are many schools that have shown the real leadership and advanced and understanding what it means to teach morality, to teach empathy. so i don't want to paint a blanket picture here. >> right. >> for those who are not picking up the mantle of leadership in this moment, i think they have just gotten cowed by number one faculty who, you know, frankly have politicized this issue to the point where jewish students are regularly, you know, and again, this preceded this week subjected to demonization of israel, double standards that -- again, it's impossible frankly for us as members of the jewish community to sometimes understand how it goes that far, but i think unfortunately university leadership often look to those faculty members for their guidance and they're looking at these other student groups and, you know, frankly trying to, you know, bring everyone into the tent, but there are times when not everyone is in the same place.

we often talk about it here about a lack of moral equivalence, and this is that case. not all hope is lost here. we have a program called the campus climate initiative where we work the administrators to help them better, number one, understand anti-semitism and how it shows up and impacts jewish students and all students and number two, helps them just do better. if you look at the school that is actually came out with with stronger statements, many of them were part of this initiative that we've got going because at least they better understood how to show up for jewish students, and again, when schools show up for jewish students, they're showing up for all student. >> mika, we're hearing from students. some of them have written op-eds, and others have spoken to us and they said, you're asking me to sit in a classroom this morning, this thursday morning, perhaps next to someone who's cheering the savage murder of people like me, and so for

schools that want to create safe spaces they talk about all the time and for the slightest microaggression, they go to a safe space with coloring books and comfort animals. this is the ultimate, right? >> it's crazy. >> they should create a safe space. >> president and ceo of hallel, adam lehman. here's some of what the president said at an event yesterday. >> we're closing with our partners with israel and around the world, to ensure israel has what it needs to defend its citizens, its cities and to respond to these attacks. as i said yesterday, my commitment is to security and the safety of jewish people. it is unshakable. the united states has israel's back, and i have yours as well both at home and abroad. >> president biden continues to show support and solidarity with

israel, delivering that speech yesterday while hosting jewish leaders at the white house. we'll have the latest on war and the biden administration's efforts to find missing americans. plus, we'll go through the new reporting on the massacre by hamas terrorists that says the terror group's main backer may have been left in the dark. we'll discuss how that aligns with previous reports. also ahead, an update from capitol hill on the speaker's race. republicans have a nominee, but it is not clear if he's got the votes to get the gavel. >> willie, it looks like more chaos. >> rough timing. >> more chaos from republicans. we have of course, just an existential challenge for the people of israel who are going to need support from congress. we have an existential challenge from ukraine, and with all that's going on, i mean, you look and see what may be happening in taiwan if, you know, one domino falls after another.

we need congress -- a congress with a speaker. >> yeah, and steve scalise is the nominee, but nowhere in the neighborhood of having the votes he needs. that's why they didn't hold a vote yet. they get back at noon today and probably won't have a vote then because he's just not there. this is going to be a replay frankly of what kevin mccarthy went through in january. as you say, with the stakes either higher because of what's happening in israel right now. >> jonathan lemire, just because, again, because congress hasn't passed, understanding the importance of having a speaker. you have a hardset rule, and you go to caucus, and you vote. the person with the most votes inside the republican conference or the democratic caucus, they go to the floor and they're the speaker and everybody votes for them because if not, there would be chaos, and, you know, again, borrowing from the logan roy line, these are not serious people. they really are -- they are

proving what complete reckless, irresponsible people they are by allowing this to go on while we have all of these crises across the globe. >> yeah. it's the chaos conference, and some of the stunts to get attention by some of their members in recent days, nancy mace wearing a scarlet letter a on her shirt for some reason, george santos running through the hallways trying to avoid reporters. both of them coming out against scalise, and he narrowly topped jordan yesterday behind closed doors. they can't bring a vote to the floor. it's not even close. the votes could be a dozen or 20 or more votes against scalise. it's unclear if he'll ever get to the floor despite a whipping operation now, and if other candidates come forward. of course, that slows down any ability for the u.s. to really aid israel at this time of crisis. >> and again, the republicans have been trusted just barely, but trusted with one wing of government. >> yeah. >> and they're completely making

fools of themselves, and they're undermining america's national security. they're undermining our ability to help the israelis, help the ukrainians, to help our allies across the globe. it is serious. it is dire. they need to get serious very soon. >> at a dire time as israel continues to launch strikes into gaza in an effort to neutralize hamas targets while israel's military prepares for a potential ground operation, war planes have leveled buildings along the gaza strip since israel declared war on sunday. israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu agreed to form an emergency unity government bringing a centrist political rival into his cabinet, someone who previously served as israel's chief of staff for the military. after the first meeting of his country's emergency government yesterday, netanyahu said israel is on the offensive, promised to crush and eliminate hamas, and

said, quote, every member of hamas is a dead man. willie? >> let's go straight to israel where we find nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel near the border with gaza. richard, what are you seeing there this morning? >> reporter: well, good morning. so today we are right on the border with gaza. we are inside israel, but to give you a sense of the distances here, if you look just beyond those power lines, you'll see a built up area where there are plumes of smoke, and there have been explosions from incoming israeli fire. that is the gaza strip. that is the hamas stronghold, and that right now is in israel's crosshairs. the air strikes are continuing according to an israeli military official who gave a briefing this morning. these are the most intense strikes against gaza that israel has ever carried out. they are describing this as unprecedented just as the hamas terror attacks inside israel which left close to or maybe

even more -- they're still -- the death toll is still going up. 1,300 israelis dead. that was also unprecedented. the next phase is a ground assault, and according to the israeli military, they are ready. they are just awaiting orders, and throughout this area, we have been seeing a buildup of troops. there have been tanks and apcs, armored personnel carriers, and jeeps full of troops, reservists. israel's called up around 360,000 reservists and they are now being mobilized. so we are preparing, bracing for this next phase of the war, and secretary of state blinken has arrived in israel. he's on a diplomatic mission to try and contain this war to israel and gaza. the concern is that it would spread to lebanon. israel has also reinforced the northern border along the lebanese border, but having watched this and other conflicts before, once these bombs start flying and there are casualties, it's very difficult to contain a

war. >> richard, we know that there are at least 100, maybe up to 150 hostages being held inside of gaza. we also know that hamas has an elaborate network of tunnels and places to hide those hostages. there's been talk of israeli commandos going in on rescue missions even though the white house wouldn't rule out yesterday that navy s.e.a.l.s or green berets could go in and rescue hostages. can you speak to the difficulty of those potential missions? >> reporter: so the operation if or perhaps when israeli troops do go in, the operation would be extraordinarily complex. because hamas has defenses, because hamas has booby traps and tunnels, and because of these hostages, and the operation will also involve hostage rescues. so generally, and this is not the first time that israeli troops have gone into the gaza strip. they used to occupy the gaza strip in the past.

when they have gone in, they enter gaza from multiple directions. they enter from the north, from the sides. they cut off the main roads, and part of this soerpgs operation certainly be commando missions to get hostages. they have located some of the positions where they believe the hostages are being held. they, of course, for obvious reasons, are not saying where those locations are or how many people might be in those locations, but it is the first indication that we have heard from israel of any kind that they are gaining intelligence, gathering more information about potential locations where they think the hostages may have been taken. >> nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel inside israel right along the border with gaza. richard, thank you so much for your reporting. we always appreciate it. joining us now, international spokesman for israelis defense forces, major spielman. do you all have a sense for

where all these 100 or 150 hostages are, and if so, are you preparing to rescue them? >> so first of all, when we say the word hostages, we have to understand that this whole state of israel is really maybe the size of new jersey. you're talking less than 10 million people, and these hostages, everybody in there is a family member, knows somebody who is a hostage or has a father, son, or mother who have been called up to the front lines because of this situation. these hostages are literally everybody's family. this is a top priority for the state of israel. there's no question. we have operation teams that are being headed by generals that have been created, that are combining both intel and ops to identify the hostages and everything else that goes around that, and of course, this is a major element of our operational scenario. at the same time, we have the

back end. every one of these hostages has family. some of their families have been destroyed. it could be a remaining 3-year-old brother and we have an entire, almost a ministry set up to deal with that entire back england. when we look at our operational objectives, first and foremost, it's clear we have got to destroy completely hamas' ability to ever do this again. if they think that by displaying the hostages or that hostages are going to help them in this respect, they're wrong. it's clear they're an evil that absolutely needs to be truly defeated. >> so major, in terms of that fact, the need to destroy hamas and balancing the effort to save the hostages, what are you saying to the families when you communicate with them about the very latest in the efforts? how do you explain this balance? >> in many of these cases, i

have to tell you these families, and i have met the families. it's hard to believe many of these families who have people who have been taken as hostages, their children are in the army that are part of the fighting force of the state of israel in many, many, many cases. it's a very personal situation and they're torn at both ends. they have people who were missing and on the other hand they have people who put on a green uniform and were all of a sudden called to service. what the people of israel are unified by are we know hamas as an entity, the massacre they carried out seven days ago, they revealed their true face. we have been saying for years to the world, this is what they -- we thought they were. we were even shocked by the gravity and just truly the cruelty of what they did. everyone is unified including those families. hamas has got to be removed from the scene because we can never allow this to happen again in the future. we have to do this very, very carefully with enormous care and precision. it's not going to be an

overnight campaign. this is a war. we are at war right now, and the war is what it's going to take to defeat them. >> and major, that obviously leads to one of the big concerns. david ignatius with "the washington post" wrote that israel's macabre mission impossible is to destroy the terror networks, to crush hamas, to make sure they can never do it again, but at the same time, protect civilian lives, protect palestinians whenever you can. could you just for americans that are watching and then, you know, will see strikes against buildings in gaza, can you explain what those targets are, and can you also explain what israel is doing to minimize civilian casualties while trying to degrade and destroy the hamas terror network? >> absolutely, and we have to understand that israel is in a

state of war. after the massacre that was inflicted, we have clearly said there's been a paradigm shift here. we are absolutely clear with ourselves and with the world that we are going to destroy hamas' capabilities completely. at the same time, hamas, we have to understand the situation that we're in. hamas came over our border and massacred israeli civilians. they then ran back over their own border, hid inside of their basements and told their wives and children, go to sleep upstairs just above us in the apartment block above us, meaning the cynicism and the kind of how grotesque that is is hard to put our hands on. they have created a situation of terror on our side and on their side. every single one of our targets is a military target that has been vetted with intelligence. now and whenever we can, we notify the civilian population in arabic. this can be done via messages on phones or leaflets. we ask them to clear out of the

area and fire warning shots. i only wish that if hamas who claims to be the champion of the rights of the people, that they would understand how important it is to separate them from the scene of fighting. the question needs to be addressed to hamas. they knew we would have to come after them and they're putting their own families directly above them. >> and major, if you could, i'm sorry to make you explain things that seem so basic to you, but for americans watching, if you could explain for those that are saying israel is a great occupier of the palestinian people, can you explain that israel turned gaza over to the palestinians in 2005? they have had one election since then, and really the greatest -- the greatest victims of hamas have been the palestinian people who have watched them forego aid, forego international help,

forego the ability for hamas to actually be growing and thriving because their singular obsession is on killing jews and destroying israel? >> i absolutely cannot agree with you more and i'll tell you from a personal outlook. i was there the day that we literally pulled our families out of gaza. i knew people in gaza. we pulled them out. they understood at the end of the day this was for the peace of israel. we had reached a safe area out of gaza, and all of a sudden we hear warning sirens and rockets begin falling, and maybe we're looking up at the sky trying to understand. wait a second. we just pulled out of gaza. there is not an israeli left in gaza. why are they shooting rockets? then we've seen the images from that point on. all the humanitarian aid, the electricity, the power, the cement. instead of going into hospitals and universities to advance their own civilization, their own population, they have been used to create tunnels, to ferry

weapons, send terror attacks and rockets back into israel. as you mentioned, they had one election. their opponents were thrown off the roofs of buildings in gaza. that is what they did with the other party. not much of a democracy, and since then, the people of gaza truly are the victims of hamas. as you mentioned, hamas is -- it's almost like a cult that is dedicated to death. it's the death of israelis absolutely, and indirectly or perhaps directly it is the death of their own people. their people cannot move forward. even humanitarian aid crossings at areas which i have been to so many times, with all the trucks of humanitarian aid and the fuel for the palestinian people, that was one of the very first places that hamas bombed. it killed the troops. they killed the people and they bombed the crossing so no humanitarian aid can reach their own people. that's the situation in gaza, and there has not been an israeli living inside of gaza for 20 years. there's no occupation of gaza. >> you know, willie, it's one

thing i have been talking to leaders in republican and democratic administrations that have wrestled with this problem since 2005, and they all say the same thing. any funding that gets in there, any supplies that get in there -- if they put in supplies for bridges, they're immediately constructed into war tunnels. everything is converted by hamas. any aid meant to help the people end up going into their warmaking machine. they haven't cared about the palestinian people in gaza, and they never be because it is -- again, it is a cult of death where their goal is, and they say it. their goal is to kill jews. >> yeah. that's right in the charter when the organization was born and also using their own people as human shields even as we speak. major, there's been some dispute about the role of iran in the savage attack of last weekend. we know, of course, that iran backs hamas. there's no doubt about that with finance and weapons and

everything else, but the question is, was there a direct order from iran? was there a green light for this attack over the weekend? so what is your sense of that? is there, in fact, evidence that iran directed this attack through hamas on israel? >> iran's involvement in the middle east and with the regimes that are attacking israel is not even a secret. we know that the head of hamas met with raisi, the head of iran in june. they were very public about their discussion about the gaza strip, and about what's happening with israel. there's no attempt to even hide this. these are really tentacles of iran, and it's also no secret that the united states has moved its carrier fleet into our area. really what i think is important is to send a message because it's going to take a while for that intelligence story to really come out, and certainly i'm not at liberty to go into this, but the u.s.'s involvement here is so important because

that carrier fleet is really sending a message. we're not looking to get involved in any type of regional ramp-up here. we are focused on hamas and gaza, and other allies around the area, around the world will hopefully send a very clear message to other players in the region. >> if there were a direct line discovered through intelligence from iran to this attack, what would be the implications for israel? >> i think that that would probably need to be discussed by the defense establishment, not by me at this time. >> international spokesman for israel's defense forces, major doron spielman. thank you very much for updating us this morning. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> this morning, i informed my colleagues that i would resign from the speakership and resign from congress at the end of october. >> i did not seek this job. i took it reluctantly, but i have given this job everything that i have. >> i will not run for speaker

again. i'll have the conference pick somebody else. >> republican infighting has helped to drive out three house speakers in recent years. will steve scalise will any different? the latest on his bid to win the gavel when "morning joe" comes right back. omes right back struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs.

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this attack was a campaign of pure cruelty, and not just hate, but cruelty against the jewish people, and i would argue it's the deadliest day for jews since the holocaust. the deadly day since the holocaust. one of the worst chapters in human history minus all that expression i learned from my dad early on, silence is complicity. i'm not -- i mean, science is complicity. it really is.

i want you to know -- i think you've already figured it out. i refuse to be silent. >> that's president biden speaking yesterday. he spoke several times yesterday. yesterday at that point, he was speaking to jewish leaders. a long, personal, emotional discussion. just about how this cannot stand. let's bring in david ignatius. david, i was struck by, well, what we've known, and what we've known since these first reports came out, but you put it -- you put it so well where you talked about -- let me just read a bit of this. the gaza operation poses two agonizing challenges which will tragically seem in conflict. first is deterrence against its enemies in gaza, west bank and lebanon, and at the same time, it must minimize civilian casualties and save the lives of as many hostages as it can.

this seems like a macabre mission impossible, and it really does, david. it really does seem like an impossible mission, and the second these reports came out, you knew. just like the palestinians knew -- just like hamas knew before the attacks that many of the victims of this war would be the palestinian people because hamas leadership uses them as human shields and they have since 2005. >> joe, i have a feeling that israel has decided that it must put the security of the state above the security of any individual including the hostages that it hopes to protect, but the security of the state comes first. looking at the preparations, listening to major spielman, the spokesman to richard engel's reporting, i see israel preparing carefully for an absolutely decisive campaign. i'm reminded during world war ii of the moment when franklin

roosevelt decided that the goal was unconditional surrender of the germans in the european campaign. unconditional surrender. something completely different, and i hear that same tone of voice from israelis. they're waiting at the gates of gaza. they're carefully thinking about all the contingencies, how difficult this operation will be. i feel certain based on my reading of military technology that they're going to use drones, robots, many, many technology devices to minimize the loss of life both for themselves and for people -- civilians in gaza. you can fly a drone through every room in a skyscraper and see who's there, and then begin to take action. those kinds of technologies i'm sure will be used. i'm also -- >> yeah. >> -- struck by the fact that secretary blinken is in the region meeting with king

abdullah in jordan and meeting with other regional leaders and meeting with prime minister netanyahu. why? to begin to think about the day after this conflict ends. what will replace this terrible rule of hamas that's been -- that's plundered gaza? what will come in its place, and i'm glad to see the israelis and the united states through secretary blinken thinking about that. so in every way, it seems to me this is a moment of careful, deliberate preparation of the battlefield for what's going to be a big war. >> and after that big war like you said, discussions on how peace can be brought to this region. peace talks have really been where the palestinians at least have been on hold now for the better part of two decades. so you are exactly right. the war is before us now just like war was after 9/11, and after that, what kind of peace can be put in place?

so david, i'm wondering whether your reporting suggests that hamas made a miscalculation -- many of its many miscalculations was that the israelis at one time for willing to give up 1,000 prisoners were one hostage. i wonder if that's looking more and more like a miscalculation in the grabbing of these hostages because from what i'm hearing and what i'm just picking up and gathering like you said, the israelis are going to worry first about destroying hamas if they can get the hostages back while destroying hamas, they will do that, but i feel a feeling that the first goal for them is the only goal for them right now. >> joe, putting yourself into the mind of a hamas attack planner is impossible, but one thing that i have been haunted by is they must have known after

an attack of this savagery that the retaliation from israel would be punishing. >> right. >> that they would come in with everything they have. so what other surprises do they have waiting? that's what troubles me. they surprised israel last saturday in a way israelis could never have imagined. how could they do this? the flying paragliders and all the things that they did. what other surprises have they got waiting in the streets of gaza? again, we can't know. we're hoping the israelis through their intelligence are beginning to get a better sense of that. i'm sure there are people on the ground and various people with robots on the ground getting new information that's helpful, but that's a troubling worry. as i said, they must have known that this next phase of the war in which israel would invade on the ground would happen. i'm told by arabic intelligence sources that the avenues of approach into gaza that richard

engel was describing and reporting are heavily mined, they have ieds. they have anti-tank weapons that have been in place waiting for just this moment. i'm sure the israelis were aware of that and they're trying to deal with it, but it's just a moment just before the dawn of this battle when i'm glad the israelis are taking a little time to think carefully about each of these contingencies. >> david, let's get your analysis. there's been some mixed messaging, mixed signals about a couple of things. one being the role iran may have played here. of course, we know iran backs hamas. hamas wouldn't exist without iran. that's a given, but it's not clear yesterday if they were directly involved. "the wall street journal" suggests yes, and "the new york times" says no, and according to officials. there's also mixed signals out of hezbollah out of lebanon, and they say an attack has begun and they had to walk that back. there may have been a skirmish,

but we missed what was going on there. what are u.s. officials telling you as to what they think is happening? >> so i think their primary concern right now is to prevent the obvious temptation from various other parties to get into this conflict from happening. the u.s. very much wants to see this as a one-front war. if you opened up a northern front attacks over the lebanese border and an eastern front, attacks from syria, you know, it's a much more difficult war. as has been said, that's the reason our aircraft carrier task force is there to signal, don't. don't do it. you have more power than you can imagine staring you in the face, but when these conflicts begin if people see gaza being pounded, they're going to want to jump in. there's going to be enormous pressure, and forgive the term,

the arab street. i'm pleased to see secretary blinken in the region. this is not a time for diplomacy exactly, but it's a time for steadying, for conversations to go to each of the leaders that we know, have worked with for so many years and talk about that. about how to restrain the risk players, put pressure on hezbollah through indirect channels. on the fundamental question of iran, most analysts i talk to say the iranians are not likely to want to jump into a major conflict with the united states or israel right now. that's just not their style. they like deniable, covert actions. they like sending signals, sending, you know, a few rockets to remind everybody they're there, but they don't want to be in a major, major war at least at this point from what my sources tell me. coming up, a source says he cannot imagine trying to rescue

hostages. james stavridis joins us on the fight to free nearly 150 people from terrorists in gaza. that's just ahead on "morning joe." gaza. that's just ahead on "morning joe. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com.

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the house majority chose scalise by a vote of 113-99. it's still unclear though if he has enough votes to win the speakership because that would require republicans to accept the results of an election. that's really not their thing, you know? >> republicans appear one step closer to electing a new house speaker, but we still don't have any idea when a vote will take place on the house floor. during a closed door party meeting yesterday, louisiana congressman steve scalise defeated ohio congressman jim jordan for the republican nomination to be speaker and replace ousted speaker kevin mccarthy. republicans then delayed a house vote to confirm scalise because he doesn't have the 217, the number of votes he needs. "the new york times" points out several republican lawmakers announced they would not back scalise on the house floor

without concessions, complaining of a rushed process to choose -- >> a rushed process? >> hello? >> you left the speakership vacant for the first time in american history. >> war is ripping across the middle east. >> do you want to wait, what? until after the next election? >> i mean -- and -- well, anyhow. complaining of a rushed process and voicing skepticism he could unite their conference. scalise could. >> who can? let's bring in our investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie eleni. he said, i'm going home. >> i'm out. >> i'm going to drink some merlot and smoke a cigar. you have paul ryan saying, i can't deal with these guys. i'm going to go home. kevin mccarthy of course, last week said he's not running again and here you have, as you know, you have a rite of passage

that's been going on for hundreds of years where a conference or a caucus elects its speaker by a majority vote inside the conference. they go to the house floor and everybody votes for him. that's how it's done. so there will be an orderly process and actually work can get done. the people's work can get done. legislation can get passed and our allies like israel and ukraine can be supported. not here. i mean, how long, jackie, are they willing to continue this madness, this chaos in the only branch of government americans have entrusted them with? >> there was joe, cautious on the -- optimism yesterday that lawmakers could rally around one of these candidates after their closed-door meeting where they took a secret ballot on either candidate, and maybe get that done yesterday afternoon, take the vote to the house floor, and move on and start focusing on the real world issues that are blowing up around the house gop

conference as they've essentially be paralyzed without a leader. that quickly proved to be a misguided assessment of this situation, and that steve scalise, the front-runner and i think clearer front-runner at least yesterday morning ended up having far more opposition than i think people realized. i think there was a little bit of confusion amongst the capitol hill press corps because there was this conference rules package that people were debating that was put forward by chip roy, and there was more opposition to that, and i think that's what people were sort of distracted by, and there was less realization that a lot of the opposition was also paired with steve scalise. scalise himself was also whipping against this rules package. that didn't sit well with a lot of members, and the more -- i think it was sort of a tinderbox kind of situation where the more republicans that came out of that closed-door meeting

yesterday said they were not going to support scalise. some of them actually continued to maintain that they were going to vote for former house speaker kevin mccarthy and still had an ax to grind with those eight fire brand republicans who ousted him last week. things quickly deteriorated and we're not sure when a house vote is going to happen or whether jim jordan or scalise is ultimately going to be the nominee. >> yeah. i mean, jackie, you had moderate republicans coming out of that meeting yesterday saying, i didn't vote for either of them because i don't think we should have gotten rid of kevin mccarthy in the first place. this is a clown show talking about their own caucus. he's not even close. he got 113, but 99 votes against. what changes that dynamic? if you have the people not voting for steve scalise, what gives here? when will there be a speaker? >> steve scalise right now, if he does ultimately become the nominee and they take the vote to the house floor, which i

think the conference wants to avoid doing until there is some sort of real coalescing around someone. they don't want the same situation they had with mccarthy where they have to take this vote 14 times. it was a very tortured, embarrassing, drawnout process, and right now scalise is facing 20 to 30 people who oppose him. you've seen a litany of complaints from people like marjorie taylor greene who said he needs to focus on fighting cancer and not be equipped to have a huge, important job during a really important time for house republicans, and the party at large. to people like nancy mace who say that they don't want someone who used to be a supporter of david duke and the kkk being the face of the conference. of course, there's still some resistance to jim jordan as well. there were a lot of people yesterday who were saying he is far from the house freedom caucus guy that, you know, he initially was.

he's much less of a rabble-rouser, but there is some fierce resistance to and from these moderates who feel he's just too conservative when it comes to fiscal issues. you know, there's now some rumors of these dark horses coming through, people like maybe tom emor, patrick mchenry who we've sort of been keeping an eye on all along, someone who might benefit from the chaos and emerge unscathed as the speaker, but i think there are going to be a lot of conversations behind closed doors today before we really see any indication of when the house vote is going to -- the house floor vote is going to happen and who the nominee is going to be. >> and colorado congressman ken buck said he wouldn't support either scalise or jordan until they could definitively say who won the 2020 election which he says neither of them has done to this point. jackie, as the republicans remain in chaos, the clock is

ticking toward a government shutdown. now just a little over a month away, and of course, every hour goes by with the u.s. being unable to fully back israel. so is there anything on that latter part, the israel piece of this, is there anything in the short-term the house can do? i know there has been some speculation that maybe mchenry could lead funding on there. what is the latest talk, and is there any part of this adding to the speaker conversation? >> yeah. i mean, this is the problem with this house gop conference. there's lots of urgency. there are lots of very strong opinions. you have lawmakers right off the bat this week -- the first person i reason into was elise stefanik. i asked her about a supplemental aid package to israel and whether or not she would eventually go along with some of the rumblings. we had heard of the white house's desire to tie this to aid for ukraine, taiwan, and border security, and she, like many others, immediately came out and said, no way.

we have enough support in the house conference to get this through as a stand-alone package to provide support to israel, but, you know, a few days later while this was in some of the pitches as well, you heard steve scalise tell his members behind closed doors that he was the person to lead the conference because of his expertise with israel. now this has sort of dissipated. everyone has very short memories here and while there is a sense of urgency here, lots of people coming to the cameras making, you know, fiery statements. at the end of the day, there are not enough people willing to rally around someone and sort of put their politics and their petty grievances behind them to get a speaker and start, you know, get back to business. >> it is all, all so very petty. "the washington post's" jackie alemany, thank you. we appreciate it as always. so we have israel, ukraine,

the southern border, taiwan. we've got these massive issues before us, willie, that have to be -- have to be addressed, and yet you have two speaker candidates that were running yesterday that as ken buck of colorado said, neither one of them have said yet who they believe won the 2020 election. >> oh my god. >> if you want to know where the republican party is -- >> that's where they are. >> -- in 2023, the two leading candidates for speaker, neither one of them have said who won the 2020 election. this is a party that is so lost right now and just wandering around aimlessly in right field. >> and that's not the fringe. that's leadership. that's two choices who want to run the caucus in the house of representatives of the united states of america won't say who won the 2020 election. think about that for a minute.

we've gotten used to it, but that's absolutely insane that they're still running interference for donald trump, who's running for president again. still ahead, israel is now preparing for the next stage of the war against hamas as the conflict enters its sixth day. we're following all the angles from israel to the beyd and wha learning about iran's role in all of this. learning about iran all of this. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses.

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coming up, we'll go live to israel, where nbc's richard engel has been reporting from the front lines. he'll have the latest when "morning joe" comes right back. k

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welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west

coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. we start this hour with the latest developments out of israel. earlier this morning we heard from prime minister benjamin netanyahu and u.s. secretary of state antony blinken in a joint appearance in tel-aviv. >> absolutely correct in calling this sheer evil. hamas is isis. and just as isis was crushed, so too will hamas be crushed. and hamas should be treated exactly the way isis was treated. they should be spit out from the community of nations. no leader should meet them. no country should harbor them. and those that do should be sanctioned. >> the message that i bring to israel is this. you may be strong enough on your own to defend yourself, but as long as america exists, you will

never ever have to. we will always be there by your side. >> in the past 24 hours, israel has intensified its strikes against gaza as its military prepares for a potential ground invasion. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel reports from near the gaza border in israel. >> reporter: israel this morning says it's attacking the gaza strip more intensely than ever before. gaza has never seen anything like this, with bombardments coming around the clock. retaliation for the terror attacks from hamas in villages and at a music festival inside israel over the weekend that killed at least 1300 israelis. this is just the beginning of israel's response. israeli troops and heavy weapons are streaming south ahead of a ground offensive into gaza that could come at any moment. israel says it will go into gaza even though hamas is prepared

for street-to-street fighting and is holding more than 100 hostages. secretary of state blinken arrived in israel this morning. the u.s. is trying to ensure this conflict doesn't spread into a war across the middle east. but once the bombs start falling, wars are hard to contain. israel is reenforcing its northern border with lebanon. for the people of gaza, there's nowhere to run. the gaza strip is cut off with no way in or out. israel has also cut power and water and says it is warning citizens to evacuate buildings before they're attacked. but casualties are mounting. one video that is very disturbing shows a baby pulled from the rubble and motionless. american dr. barbara zind was in gaza on a humanity mission. now, she's not a hostage, but

she can't get out, there's not a passage out right now. we're hoping that a humanitarian corridor will be made. >> reporter: in israel, the death toll from saturday continues to rise. as new videos show the horrors of the hamas killing spree. one is especially chilling. hamas gunman can be seen arriving by para glider at that music festival. 260 of them are about to be killed. >> imagine looking up and seeing that. as you mentioned, there's no way out for the people of gaza right now, but there is another border with egypt. we know one of the highways there has been disabled. but egypt has said our border is closed. can you speak to that side of the story? >> reporter: so this is a long-running dispute between the palestinians and the egyptians.

every time there has been a flare-up of tensions, there has been pressure put on the egyptians to open that border, to allow people to leave or at least allow supplies in. there are negotiations to try and open it to at least, as the american doctor mentioned, get some humanitarian relief into gaza. but right now it is not open and israel is determined to keep its side of the border firmly closed. it wants gaza sealed off so that hamas can't get new supplies. it also cut off the power, the water. it is trying to pressure the gaza strip before a ground invasion. i can tell you by cutting off the power, you also cut off or limit communications. we've been trying to speak to people inside gaza. it's quite difficult. their batteries on their phones are running out. people are using generators to charge whatever they can.

the people we've been speaking to still have a little bit of gas left for their generators. many people don't have generators and even those who do, there's no new gas coming in. >> prime minister netanyahu said just as isis was crushed, so too will hamas be crushed. you've covered that region for a very long time. can you put into perspective the response we're seeing from israel as opposed to other moments in this long conflict? >> reporter: so this is one of the main talking points from the israelis right now, that hamas is isis and that hamas must be treated like isis. there is some overlap. hamas was certainly behaving like isis when it carried out its attacks. an israeli official told me how certain bodies were mutilated. hamas certainly went on a killing spree, on a kidnapping spree and is threatening to execute hostages.

all of that are similar to how isis behaved. there are major differences as well. isis was universally loathed, including in the middle east. isis was a group of refugees. they were people from all over the arab world, all over europe, all over the united states, frankly. they gathered in a lawless area declared a caliphate and then almost everyone in the world ganged up on them, including arab states. this is very different for the palestinians. the palestinians have a long cause. they have a homeland. there are innocent civilians who live in gaza. there are 2 million. people. theydiaspora population. it is not exactly the same situation as the isis caliphate in syria. the analogy holds, but only so far.

>> richard engel, thank you. as israeli forces continue to amass at the gaza border, fears continue to grow for those hostages being held by hamas, perhaps as many as 150. raf sanchez has the latest. >> reporter: guys, good morning. all across the south of this country we can see israeli tanks massing for a potential ground invasion of gaza. but with every passing hour, fears are growing for the hostages being held captive. six days into the worst hostage crisis in israel's history, desperate families waiting for answers. >> i think about my family over there, what are they doing to them? >> reporter: there are at least 150 hostages and there are still americans unaccounted for. but some receiving the news they feared the most. earlier this week this american was on the phone with her when hamas gunmen burst into her

home. her son is still hopeful. but now her family confirming she's been found dead. the family had called on the u.s. and israel to do everything they can to find the hostages. secretary blinken and a team in israel this morning to push forward the search for americans still missing. while israel waits to learn their fate in the darkest hours still coming together, singing the national anthem in bomb shelters and drawing strength from stories of heroism including that of this grandmother. five terrorists burst into her home on saturday, but she decided to offer her captors food. >> on the table here, you can see some of the food. she told us they made her taste everything she gave them because they were worried she might have tried to poison them. >> reporter: buying time for israeli commandos to set her

free. i told the hostages the whole world cares for you. don't show them you're afraid, she says. a moment of hope in an hour with few of them. traveling with secretary blinken is a senior u.s. official responsible for hostage rescues. the u.s. and israeli governments are looking to come up with a joint plan to bring their citizens home. guys. the new york times is detailing the efforts of another hero as the terrorist ambush began last saturday, one retired israeli army general out for a bike ride raced home, put on his uniform, grabbed a weapon and rushed to confront the attackers himself. the paper described how the 66-year-old drove headlong into the battle zone armed only with a pistol, where he organized a confused group of soldiers into a fighting unit and began overseeing evacuations.

asis story becomes widely publicized across israel, the times notes the decorated para trooper has become an. avatar of israel's diy spirit and of the failure of its military and intelligence agencies. the paper continues, so weakened is thelic faith in the untry's military that one of the biggest issues israelis are talking about is arming themlv. many already own weapons but t government announced this week that it was purchasing 10,000 assault rifles for civilians along with bullet proofsts. mr. zif is spear heading in an effort to empower retired genera and former soldiers to rebuild community defense squads in the gaza border area and around the country. >> let's bring in james

stravidis. they fought back in '48, '67, '73, so many other times. first of all, the tragedies are heartbreaking. i must say the failures of israel's intel community and of the military is highlighted here. it's just shocking, hard to even fathom how badly they mishandled this. >> indeed. you know, i've been associated with the israeli military for decades one way or another and for four years as commander of u.s./european command. i would go to israel frequently. i'm good friends with the former

general benny gantz who is now part of a unity government. i think israel is going to face a moment much like the united states did in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. you want to respond, you want to go to action stations, you go to general quarters. all that is happening as the troops marshal outside of gaza. but on a separate track and over time, israel will need to pull apart these failures, understand what happened, reverse engineer them and fix them. it's going to be principally in the intelligence side of this. i think we're going to discover, much like the united states did in 9/11, disconnects between the intelligence services, lack of high-end approach, technology failures, if you will, and third and finally, the distractions of the internal political turmoil in israel. >> i wanted to ask you about

that. obviously you had benjamin netanyahu more focused on attacking the supreme court, more focused on all of these internal struggles where he was trying to, in the eyes of most of the military and most of the intel professionals who had kept israel safe for so many decades, they were the ones opposing his efforts, in their words, to undermine the constitution. we also hear -- and i've been hearing and we talk about it on the show for a year, about the divide between the professionals, the more secular intel and military professionals that were the real pros that protected israel through the years, and then some of the people benjamin netanyahu brought in. this is not about knocking benjamin netanyahu. this is talking about telling

americans who we've been hearing this for a year that there's been a real divide and the intel community, the military community, the professionals had been pushed aside in this new netanyahu government. if you can, talk about that. do you see hope in this unity government coming back together that a lot of the professionals will be brought back into the government? >> i do. again, i think a good analog is america immediately post 9/11, we were intensely unified. we had a real sense of purpose, a kind of a clarion call of this will never happen again. and we built a department of homeland security. we created a new military command, u.s. northern command that focuses on the homeland. we integrated our intelligence services. without fear or favor, we pulled apart our failures and fixed

what was wrong. in the case of israel, there's a tactical moment right now. again, i will really draw a line under the name general benny gantz. he's a colin powell like figure, esteemed across israeli society. i think he's going to be a real force for good. and he knows everybody on that deep professional bench. i think he will personally be ensuring the right team is in the right place. in addition to the way you categorized it, the divisions and distractions, it's also the essence of the israeli defense system is its reserve component, its ability to call up reservists. very publicly in the wake of the massive protest, you heard from israeli professional reservists who said we will not be called

up for this government. now we've got a unity government. i think that problem is solved besides the overwhelming sense of an israel that must come together to face the horror of hamas. >> admiral, given your experience and your familiarity with the field of operations in gaza and your knowledge that there is no more lethally dangerous field of operations than urban warfare house to house, does any part of you have a sense of foreboding that hamas wants israel to come into gaza, feeling that it could get them in a venus flytrap sort of situation that they want them in there? >> i agree with that, mike. i think for israel, it is an absolute mandatory invasion at this point. but the key, your point, is they can't be locked in there.

in other words, the worst thing they could do, in my view, would be to try and take over gaza and govern it, which they did 15 years ago or so. they have to get in, resolve the hostage piece to this, find, fix and kill as much of hamas as they can and then figure out an extraction strategy. what that looks like is unclear at the moment. it may involve working with the palestinian authority and the west bank. it may involve a pan-arab kind of peacekeeping force that comes in from saudi arabia, uae, jordan. it could be a united nations solution. but leaving hamas in place is not an option. but on the other hand, for israel, retaking and governing gaza would be a mistake, in my view, and i think in their view as well. >> president biden has been

standing firmly by israel amid all these terrorist attacks and unspeakable atrocities. former president trump yesterday was more focused on criticizing our israeli allies while praising, that's right, praising hezbollah. the terrorist group is of course lobbing missiles right now at israel from the north. >> we have to protect, as you know, there's no choice. we have to do it. he has been hurt very badly because of what's happened here. he was not prepared. he was not prepared. israel was not prepared. under trump, they wouldn't have had to be prepared. >> was the prime minister distracted? >> who would have thought their intelligence wouldn't have been able to pick this up. thousands of people were involved and they let this slip by. that was not a good thing for him or for anybody. >> if the election wasn't rigged, there would be nobody even thinking about going into

israel. then there was the inevitable attack four days later, which i predicted. and then two nights ago i read all of biden's security people. can you imagine national defense people? they said, gee, i hope hezbollah doesn't attack from the north, because that's the most vulnerable spot. i said, wait a minute, hezbollah is very smart. they're all very smart. >> it's really unspeakable. liz cheney wrote, after hamas slaughters hundreds of jewish families and israel confronts an unprecedented security crisis, donald trump attacks the israeli government and praises hezbollah terrorists, which he did. are republicans really going to nominate this dangerous man to be president of the united states? what an idiotic thing that donald trump said that under trump they would not have had to be prepared, like somehow he was

going to handle it. you look, admiral, at the autocrats, the dictators, the tyrants that donald trump praises. he calls hezbollah very smart. xi jinping, very smart man. russian president vladimir putin a genius and savvy. and calls north korean leader kim jong-un a man considered by many to be the most tyrannical among all these tyrants and terrorists, a great leader. it is frightening that there is a political party that's thinking of nominating such a man who continues and has from the beginning of his political career attacked democratic leaders with a small "d" and praised dictators, tyrants and terrorists. he's done it time and time again, hasn't he?

>> he has not only done all of that -- and by the way, the only group missing from that list of people he praised and eventually he will, i'm sure, are the ayatollahs, the rotten theocracy in tehran who have created these two monster children, hezbollah and hamas. they are anything but clever, anything but smart. in the end, israel will defeat them and crush them both. in terms of criticizing our enemies, he never does that. what he also never does is praise our allies. think about how he denigrates nato, how he talks about pulling out of the alliance, how he turns into mercenary transactions our alliances in the pacific. joe, there is nothing better about the united states in the

international sphere than this glittering array of alliances with japan, australia, new zealand, all in the pacific and elsewhere around the world. go to moscow, go to beijing. you don't find discussions with allies. we are rich in that regard. president trump needs to praise our friends and allies and start criticizing our enemies. >> retired four star admiral james stra veets, thank you. jonathan lemire, you asked the question of whether donald trump was going to be supportive of u.s. intel agencies and the professionals who risk their security for us every day or vladimir putin, he chose vladimir putin. not only does he constantly praise tyrants, and again i wonder why republicans continue to support a guy that praises president xi, putin, kim

jong-un, hezbollah, terror groups. not only does he do that, but something you saw is just he praises tyrants and autocrats and he attacks the prime minister of the united kingdom, whoever it is. britain's prime minister, the president of france, the chancellor of germany. i mean, we saw this time and time again. nato. constantly attacking democratically elected leaders and constantly praising tyrants that get the power by being bloodthirsty and vicious. >> he attacked the prime minister of canada. he went after australia. >> australia. by the way, australia, our closest ally -- i remember i had to say it on the air time and again. the australians have been with us in every single war over the

past century. i remember picking up the phone and calling the ambassador to the united states from australia saying, obviously you know we love and respect you. i'm so glad you brought australia up and canada. because it literally is all the leaders of the democratic countries. >> he threw candy once at angela merkel of germany. before he got to helsinki on that trip in july of 2018, our stop before that was nato, where donald trump nearly pulled the united states out of the post world war ii alliance. he was this close to pulling the united states out of it, which would have led to its collapse a few years later. nato has rallied to defend ukraine. trump has always admired the dictators and been envious of their power. he is, of course, not shy in

criticizing those who he feels like have not been appropriately grateful to him. part of the reason he's mad at netanyahu is because netanyahu had the audacity to praise president biden and the biden administration's response to the crisis there. this is who the republicans right now are looking hell bent onto nominate again to be president of the united states, someone who has tossed aside alliances and let's not forget is currently under indictment for sharing our most sensitive secrets. some of that intelligence, of course, collected from our allies. >> also very important to remember that he is under indictment for sharing war plans of what we would do if we invaded iran, if we were to strike military targets in iran. he stole that information from the white house and then was waving it around reportedly to his campaign manager and other

people and saying at the same time, i'm not supposed to show you this because it's classified and i can't unclassify it because i'm not president anymore. >> and one more data point, the meeting in the oval office with the russian foreign minister where he turned over intelligence, who was that intelligence collected from? israel. coming up, congressman steve scalise has secured the republican nomination for house speaker, but now must convince 217 of his colleagues to vote for him. we'll have the latest from capitol hill. we'll have the latm capitol hill

live picture at 9:30 in the

morning in washington. nbc news has learned house republicans will meet behind closed doors just under three hours from now amid the ongoing fight to elect a new speaker. today's meeting comes after congressman steve scalise of louisiana won the party's nomination for speaker yesterday defeating jim jordan in a secret ballot vote that was 113-99. still unclear, though, whether scalise can garner the votes to take the speaker's gavel in a full house floor vote. joining us is jake sherman. 12:15, members only meeting, check your phones at the door. what do you expect to happen in that room today? >> i hope they don't have to check their phones at the door, but that seems to be the reality these days. it's very difficult to see at this moment how scalise gets there. he has 113 supporters. he needs 217.

he really has 110 because that includes the three delegates from u.s. territories that voted for scalise. he needs to add about 107 supporters to his side. there are about ten to 15 republicans who say they'll never vote for him for a million reasons. number one, they say he never reached out to them until yesterday. some people are angry because in their view he didn't do enough to help kevin mccarthy when he was in trouble in the conference. i mean, whether that's true or not, that's the perception. it doesn't seem there's much that scalise could do to convince people that's not the case. so scalise has to make a move today. he has to cut his deficit in half, i would say, to be a viable candidate. if he went on the floor right now, he would get creamed. if he added 40 or 50 supporters to his side, he would still be several dozen short.

this is a very difficult situation for scalise. it's been ten days since they ousted mccarthy. with no speaker and a lot of problems in the world, as you just talked about. >> a lot of work for scalise to get even close to the votes he needs. what are the holdouts, the ones who effectively stripped kevin mccarthy from his job as well, who do they propose? >> no one. >> presumably they want a speaker. who is it supposed to be? >> they wanted mccarthy. mccarthy had 98% support in the congress and he was overthrown by eight people along with democrats. that's their view of the situation. you have a lot of people already talking about fallbacks, talking about giving patrick mchenry, the current speaker pro tem the power to move legislation, perhaps the speaker through the year or through this congress. that would probably have to be with democratic support. i don't know how that would work. some people are talking about

veteran gop lawmakers like tom cole, the chair of the house rules committee. i don't think that will happen. but it's not as much who they want as who they don't want. you had marjorie taylor greene say scalise should beat cancer instead of being speaker. nancy may of south carolina suggest that she couldn't vote for him because of his involvement 20 years ago, which he's explained in detail, his appearance at a white nationalist-linked rally. this was an issue many, many moons ago when scalise was climbing the leadership ladder before. as you guys know, these are personality contests. they are deeply personal. sometimes they just can't put it together. >> they are deeply personal, but i must say you would always see members of the conference or the democratic caucus have their

vote. even if somebody won by one vote, they would go on the floor, everybody would line up behind them and that's just the way it was. that doesn't mean somebody that may have lost didn't spend the rest of their time just sort of legislatively giving the other person the elbow, but that's how it played out. this is just chaos. i wanted to read a tweet that caught my eye from hugh hewitt. he said i'd like to see a floor vote. as i saw them talking about the dangers we face from terror groups and russia invading ukraine, iran starting a proxy war here and also concerns about china. these are remarkably dangerous times for republicans to be

ditering. are you picking up a growing impatience from the entire conservative movement at these holdouts that are not lining up and giving the house gop a speaker to follow? >> yes. incredible frustration and not only in the conservative media sphere, but also among members of congress. most of that ire is directed at the eight who pushed mccarthy out, because they wouldn't be in this situation because he had near unanimous support except for those eight members. there is a lot of anger at those people. if the biden administration says they need urgent legislation to send money or weapons to israel, i would have to imagine that would put tremendous pressure on

republicans. one more point to make to your earlier point, joe, this reminds me of a conversation i had with richard shelby last congress. richard shelby was a democrat, became a republican after '94. i said did you ever think about voting against tip o'neal? he said it never crossed his mind. he never would have thought voting against him for speaker when he was in the house of representatives. >> you have the fight inside the caucus, inside the conference. then you go out united and you vote for the speaker. >> cofounder of punchbowl news, jake sherman, thank you. breaking news on the economy, the consumer price index increased 0.4% in september, slightly more than economists expected. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin with more.

>> you know, this number is a little bit worse than people expected. the consumer prices that have increased the most is shelter. most people have seen this in terms of how much it costs to rent their home and to pay for everything. that is the big one. that was higher than anticipated, effectively 7% year over year. you can feel it and you can see it. all of that becomes an impact both for the political campaigns that we see happening in terms of elections. that's a big one. inflation is still front and center. the other big piece is what does the federal reserve do. there had been a sense that the federal reserve might try to keep its foot off the gas in the economy here. as inflation goes up, they are desperate to control it. this might make it more likely that before the end of the year we could see another rate hike which makes everything else that

much more expensive. >> three, four, five months ago we were around 2.5% annualized increase. everybody can declare victory. here we're at like maybe 3.5%. how big of a difference does that make in how aggressive the fed is? >> i think that right now also given what's happening in israel and all of the other uncertainty, there's a sense that the federal reserve is less likely to try to do anything. they might take more of a wait-and-see approach even if inflation is a little hotter than they want it to be. the truth is they don't want to break anything. the higher rates go, the greater the chances that you move into recession, that some of the banks start to have problems. when rates go up, in some ways it looks good for banks because

you think, oh, they get a higher interest rate. not so much, because they have a cost of capital too and they've lent out money also at very low rates to others. it's a bit of a dance. >> andrew, we've been talking for some time. we had discussions about bud light and the management not being aggressive enough and other issues about people not being strong enough, being too put off by social justice warriors, so to speak, to get out and speak their mind, or by people on the far right who are trying to cancel them, in the case of bud light. that's not the case right now with israel and these acts of terror. i mean, it's interesting, as you brought up to us before the show, the apollo ceo now talking about how the president of university of pennsylvania

should be fired because she did not speak out aggressively enough against the terrorism. we also saw in the "new york times" that bill ackman, hedge fund chief, saying to harvard please let us know what students are not condemning terrorism because we want to make sure we never hire any of them. talk about how this has been a bit more of a unifying issue for ceos even as presidents of colleges and universities diter. >> there's no question. over the last year a lot of ceos and the business community that had been outspoken on issues, has been walking that back. it started before these heinous attacks. there's no way to justify any of this in any way. the fact of the matter is you now have ceos who look at this issue. a number of them are jewish.

i'm jewish, by the way. they are horrified and i think everybody is horrified. even before this attack, what happened at the university of pennsylvania within the last three weeks, there was this palestine writers festival that had taken place and it had been outsourced and run by a known anti-semite who has fomented this kind of hate. the ceo of apollo behind the scenes -- and we did not know this until just yesterday -- had been pushing the university of pennsylvania to come out with a statement condemning this group. the university of pennsylvania not only refused to condemn this group, citing the idea of free speech, but effectively went to a number of the trustees, including mark rowan and said, you know what, maybe you shouldn't be on the board of this university, trying to silence them from speaking out.

that's what led to rowan putting out this letter yesterday now calling for the resignation of the president of the university of pennsylvania as well as the resignation of the top trustee of the school, who by the way, happens to be another ceo on wall street,a guy named scott bock at greenhill, saying don't donate to the university of pennsylvania anymore. it's remarkable. mark rowan is still the chairman of the board of the wharton school of business at penn. it is a remarkable turn of events. >> i'm not jewish. i'm baptist, but it's something i've been talking about on this network for 20 years, that on college campuses for some reason anti-semitism is allowed to fester and grow. >> it's normalized in a horrible way. >> racism is rightly fought left and right, but anti-semitism, a heinous form of racism that's led to the killing of millions

and millions of jews through the years, for some reason from usc to columbia and all points in between, i've reported time and time and time again about this over the past 20 years. it's not getting better. i don't understand the blind spot is on college campuses. i didn't in the early 2000s when i started on tv. i didn't in the '90s when i was in congress. i don't understand now. i want to put up this axios headline. look at this headline. ceos seek to blacklist harvard students after signing pro-palestinian letter. no, not pro palestinian. pro hamas. >> exactly. >> i want to keep this up, because the media needs to do a better job of clarifying that those were pro hamas letters. there were many celebrating the

terror attacks, beheading babies, burning grandmothers alive. let's be exact inur language. let's be exact in our headlines. because you supporting terror attacks against babies and against families, the slaughter of families, against grandmothers, that is not pro palestinian. i have criticized the israeli government for not being more aggressive through the years, for finding peace with the palestinian people, looking for ways to find peace with the palestinian people. but it's never been able to do that in gaza, because hamas, they shoot people in hamas that want to find a two-state solution. hamas says our goal is to kill jews. so, again, this inexact language, it's the same thing when we're talking about these presidents of universities who

may say, oh, we're in favor of the palestinian people. my heartbreaks for the palestinian people. my heartbreaks for the israeli people slaughtered by hamas. hamas is a terror organization that has held hostage the palestinian people in gaza for 20 years. of course, we've seen what they're capable of doing to jews when they get the chance. >> and just to contextualize that article, bill ackman came out and said, look, harvard should disclose who are the students behind these groups that signed this letter. he wanted to know, because he said i don't want to hire those people. he put out a letter last night saying those individuals who were part of signing it, if they made a mistake, if they feel they shouldn't have signed it and larry summers and others have said some of these kids

might have made a mistake. they should raise their hands and say i made a mistake and publicly condemn what just happened. you have not seen that happen. >> you can do two things. you can condemn what happened, the outright terrorist acts and you can also call for a two-state solution that will alleviate the suffering, the heinous conditions the palestinians have been living under with hamas leading them since 2005. you can two those two things. >> don't celebrate savagery. andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. coming up on "morning joe," a new documentary dives into the lawsuit and trial against the neo nazi organizers and groups that planned the 2017 unite the right rally in charlottesville. we'll talk to the director of the film and the lawyers who took the case to court and won. "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be right back

i just heard loudness, almost like thunder. >> tiki torches still on fire were being thrown in our direction. >> a group with their shields. >> i heard the sound of metal hitting bodies. >> robby called me out of the blue and said, you want to sue the nazis with me? >> i've been a litigator in new york city for more than two decades. >> charlottesville actually shocked me. i wanted the toughest possible people to help. this was really a conspiracy. >> it wasn't some sort of freak accident where this car ran into people. there was overt planning. how to prepare for violence and make this appear as if it's self-defense. >> the threat that this poses in this country, we cannot not fight back. >> that is a look at the new hbo documentary titled "no accident." it chronicles the successful efforts to sue the organizers of the deadly unite the right rally

in charlottesville, virginia. that is when hundreds of white supremacist carrying tiki torches gathered to protest the removal of the statue of robert e. lee while chanting jews will not replace us. a rally participant drove his car through the group injuring dozens and killing 32-year-old heather heyer. the driver would eventually be convicted of first degree murder. that is the rally that prompted then president trump to insist there were, quote, very fine people on both sides. joining us now the attorneys who represented the plaintiffs who sued white nationalist leaders behind that rally, karen dunn and robby kaplan. also with us is the film's director, christie jacobson. we got a little taste of it in the preview there, which is that there's this idea that this was sort of a spontaneous rally. things got out of control, echoes of january 6th, by the way. oh, it just got out of control.

what you guys really got at in this case is, no, this was something that was long planned and their intents were carried out. >> yep. willie, thanks for having us. the case that we put on before the jury was that this violence was planned and premeditated. it was executed according to plan, and it was celebrated after the fact, and what was so remarkable about this case was the evidence of the planning and that's what comes through in the movie. so we're happy to talk about that. >> and so robby, we heard you in the clip there saying you were shocked by what you saw when you opened up all the evidence. what surprised you? what didn't you know about this? >> for months leading up to august 17th, these guys were on discord, a social media website, and they were planning with meticulous detail. they had channels like what weapons to bring, how to make it look like self-defense,

transportation, leadership, et cetera, and then the crazy part, they'd also, you know, hunter rent talked about the binnalty of evil. they talked about what sandwiches to pack, how to find gluten free bread for the rally. it's an eye opening astonishing account of men plotting violence based on their hatred of jews, black people, and other minority groups. >> all the defendants were found liable in this civil case. you won the trial. christie, how did you approach a story we watched a lot of it with our own eyes, it had long legs because of the former president's comments about it. how did you get at this story as a film make sner. >> what drew me to the story is not only how strategic and smart these lawyers were using the law but how brave the plaintiffs are, the individuals who, you know, they stood up to hate not

one day, not with two days, but then they put themselves onto this lawsuit against publicly, you know, putting their names on this lawsuit against some of the most violent anti-semitic, racist, white supremacist. they then went to court, you know, went to trial, and opted to retell and relive that trauma in order to make a difference and hold these men accountable, and those people -- these people are awesome, and the lawyers that i filmed are extraordinary, but i really wanted to center those people who are ordinary people doing something really important. >> so karen and robbie, it's my understand, our understanding that the defendants chose to represent themselves in court. >> yeah. >> what were they like in terms of cross examination? what was your impression? what did they ask?

>> yeah, so we sued 24 individuals and groups. two of them, some of the most prominent white supremacist in the country including richard spencer and chris cantwell represented themselves. what that meant is they could cross examine the very people that they had victimized on august 11th, 2017, and they could give their own opening and closing, which were sort of like monologues. chris cantwell has a show where he has tens of thousands of followers on his podcast. he is an amazing entertainer, and i think if he had chosen a different path in life, he would have been a fantastic lawyer, but what happened was the jury was able to see what these guys were like, how they presented themselves, and compare that to the evidence which showed them to be in some cases completely different people, and it was that contradiction, who they presented themselves to be versus the evidence that the

jury saw that ultimately i think helped lead to the verdict of complete liability for each defendant. >> in a word, mike, i would say it was crazy. it was literally crazy having these guys in the courtroom, among other things, literally the book mein kampf came up multiple times. number two, they really tortured the plaintiffs. that was the worst part of it all. they got to ask the plaintiffs questions and i remember devin willis, who i think was on the stand for maybe an hour, they cross examined him for five hours asking him questions over and over and over again, don't you think thomas jefferson was a white supremacist, these really politically charged questions. and there was no end to it. it was hard. got used to it, and that's also petrifying that we got used to it. it was pretty hard and pretty crazy. >> karen, what were the judgments -- you guys won. what were the judgments and what are the impacts potentially? >> i think this case shows if

you bring a civil suit, you can really have a deterrent effect. you can have a major financial effect. the jury awarded 25 million in damages and liability as to each and every defendant and found, more importantly, a conspiracy where everybody was liable for everyone else's actions. so when people think about should i do this same thing somewhere else, they have to think about they could be liable for the actions of everybody else in the conspiracy. charlottesville was actually charlottesville 2.0. there was a charlotte 1.0, and there was intended to be a 3.0 and on and on and there wasn't, in part because of this case. >> kristi what do you take away from this experience about the defendants but also the plaintiffs in this story? what sthould people know? >> not only -- again did these plaintiffs, and plaintiff means prosecution for everybody who doesn't know the lingo of civil litigation. not only did they stand up in

the moment, but then to participate in the trial and then to participate in this documentary, in this film, and so now it's this many years later, two years after the trial, they're back in the spotlight standing up again, and i also think that, you know, i'm so grateful that we've got this documentary, this legal thriller that these incredible humans allowed my team to capture because it does expose the truth, and in today's world of like quick news hits, you know, you really get to understand the depth of the conspiracy and the courage of people fighting it. >> kristi, karen and i we all do this for a living. for us this is our daily -- i don't daily sue nazis. but this is what we do day-to-day. for these plaintiffs, i could not echo their bravery in coming forward and testifying was astonishing. truly amazing and facing the very guys that were throwing tiki torches at them. >> it's a riveting story. it's a tragedy, of course,