time, but that's sort of blaming the victims for being attacked. >> is a two-state solution possible? i know that's a long answer, but i only have a few seconds left, so i guess a yes or a no. >> yes or a no i can't give you. i can tell you it's not in the -- there were few prospects of it happening before this, and it, as best, has been postponed. >> sorry forgiving you the toughest question last and for telling you you had absolutely no time to answer it. ambassador chuck free lick, thank you for joining us. i appreciate your time. that's going to do it for me. deadline white house picks up special coverage after a quick break -- excuse me. right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. it's 11:00 p.m. in israel where a slow and steady buildup of israeli military forces is

likely a prelude to a new stage of conflict with incredibly high stakes for israel, the palestinians and for the united states and the world. air strikes in gaza have intensified today ahead of a possible ground invasion intended to crush hamas. nbc's ellison barber captured this video of a steady stream of tanks about two miles from the border with gaza. u.s. secretary of state antony blinken was in israel today reiterating the yaunts decades' long and steadfast commitment to israel. here is what he had to say about the conflict ahead. >> on the humanitarian situation in gaza, i think it's first important to remember fundamental issue that makes this complicated. hamas continues to use civilians as human shields, something that's not new, something that they've always done, intentionally putting civilians

in harm's way to try to protect themselves or protect their infrastructure or protect their weapons. so that's one of the basic facts that israel has to deal with. of course, civilians should not be used in any way as the targets of military operations. they are not the target of israel's operations. >> the stakes of the fight against hamas are underscored by the tragedy that strails have suffered. secretary of state blinken said officials showed him photos and video of people killed in the terrorist attack by hamas. take a listen to his reaction to what he saw. >> it's beyond what anyone would ever want to imagine, much less actually see and, god forbid, experience. a baby, an infant riddled with

bullets. soldiers beheaded, young people burned alive in their cars or their hideaway rooms. i could go on, but it's simply depravity in the worst imaginable way. it almost defies comprehension. >> president joe biden in ris remarks in this hour yesterday also referenced seeing images of murdered children. these images, along with first-hand accounts and trens being developed in the aftermath of saturday's deadly terror attack are right now informing u.s. foreign policy, both the secretary of state and u.s. president have referred these images in the last 24 hours. earlier today the israeli government released some of them. we have made a decision as a

program to broadcast one of the images to you. these images are possible to unsee once you see them. it will break your heart. we do not take the decision to show one of these images to you lightly. we'll give you a second to look away if you want to or leave the room if you choose. okay. this is one of the images the secretary of state was referring to that he saw, that he was reacting to in those remarks. what we just showed you is just a glimpse of the real horror that all israelis are dealing with right now and trying so hard to come to grips with, even as the crisis is still very much unfolding. a steadily mounting death toll now includes 27 americans, 1300 israelis, and 1400 people killed in gaza. it's where we start the hour with my colleague msnbc's ali velshi in ashkelon, israeli

former ambassador and member of the knesset, michael oren is back with us. also the times of senior analyst javy gore. javy, i'll start with you. i thought after listening to the president and the secretary of state talk in such detail about what he had seen it was important that our viewers see what they've seen. obviously you are seeing a lot more than we just saw, and i just wonder -- i wonder what level of trauma the country is in. >> that's a very good question. we're still in saturday, saturday hour after hour israelis all over the country, families received messages from people trapped in their bombshells for hour while gunmen were outside, setting fires trying to smoke them out. we watched it.

we felt the helplessness, we felt the inability, the broken promise, the inability to rescue them. nobody has managed to leave that experience. bodies were scattered at the music festival and they're still being found. the stories keep coming. we have been in five days of never-ending horror, and it has changed us. the country that came out of this this week is a different country from what it was last week. >> how has it changed you? >> there were a lot of assumptions that we have, that we could live with the status quo, that we could live with an organization like hamas on our border because it could be deterred, it was essentially rational. that's no longer the case. we no longer believe that.

the jewish experience of the 20th century, to be cold or academic, was the experience that in the eastern hemisphere of the earth at least, that the jews stopped dying the day israel was founded, and we take care of our own and don't come to the world for help and certainly don't let people be butchered in the streets. jews still remember 30 years ago. what happened on saturday was something like 25 kinnish i have pagroms. it's been burned into our memories. there's a new solidarity, a new vow that israeli society has made to itself. this is deep, deep in our dn arjts. we are now going to face hamas, but we in general are going to face these threats. we're not going to live with

containable threats because they're not containable, and they're not deterrable. this is going to be a different middle east and we're going to make sure of it. >> what does that look like? >> in the short term it looks like the destruction of hamas. hamas, as secretary blinken noted, its only strategy for survival, its literal only game plan right now is to hide in a massive network of bunkers and tunnels under gaza's civilian population. hamas is forcing us -- we have a completely legitimate war aim which is to destroy hamas. hamas is forcing us to reach through gaza civilian population to do so. that's a crime against humanity, being committed against gaza civilian population, committed by hamas, not israel. there is a crime of war against humanity. they have actual definition. if you feel something bad, it doesn't become a war crime. what hamas is doing now is a war

crime on a scale that is massive. when the united states decided that the nazi regime would be decimated and destroyed to the last individual nazi, nobody thought that the civilian death toll on the path to destroying hitler's regime was america's fault. this is not a regime allowed to survive. this is not a regime we can tolerate surviving. it is literally hiding. there are hospitals in gaza that lost electricity. not a single bunker of hamas lost electricity. they have fuel and generators, they don't send those fuels and generators to the hospital. we are going to save gaza from hamas and make sure hamas never threatens us again. >> mr. ambassador, we talk a lot

about our domestic politics, but the stakes feel higher. it was notable that u.s. secretary of state antony blinken said basically what haviv just said, that hamas uses civilians as human shields, quote, to hide their weapons amid them, to hide themselves amid them. that is not what israel does. israel doesn't even target civilians. that that needed to be said was notable to me. tell me your thoughts and reactions to the day's events and the secretary of state's visit. >> thank you, nicolle. let me reit late what haviv said. the pain, the agony, the shock, we're still deeply within it. if i had to think of some maybe agonizing silver lining to this whole experience, pardon the oxymoron, is that we came in as a deeply divided situation. for better or for worse, hamas has reunited us, reminded us who

we are as a nation, as a people, and i think even as a family. you can disagree when it comes to life and death and defending our families. we're going to stick together and defend this country in the best way we know how and the most moral way we know how. as the air force is preparing for perhaps an infantry and armored incursion into gaza, the air force is dispensing leaflets, sending sms signals, using non-explosive missiles that hit the top of buildings and let the inhabitants of those buildings flee an area of intended combat. that's crucial. we're going to do the utmost to avoid civilian casualties. again, as secretary blinken has said, and many other officials have said, we're dealing with an enemy that will use its population as a human shield and use the israeli hostages and american hostages which is going

to be morally, to say nothing of logistically complex. we were very deeply moved by the president's message of two nights ago. i have been in the field of u.s.-israel relationships both as a historian and practipracti. i cannot recall a speech so impassioned, so from the heart, a man who experienced personal loss of a wife and two children, who connected that pain to our pain, who unequivocally supported the state of israel's right to defend itself and categorically condemned terror. frankly, the call went far beyond what i ever thought a president at this stage in american history was capable of doing. he pledged american power at a time when virtually the only issue that receives bipartisan support in congress is the opposition to further middle east military entanglements. that's what we call in washington a very, very heavy lift. moving naval assets into the

middle east and saying basically to iran, to hezbollah, don't get involved. that message was extremely important to us. it was reiterated by the secretary of state today during his visit. we also got the message that the united states expects us to act, according to the world, the rule of law as the united states does. i think what the secretary was saying, between the lines, help us to help you. the more caution you exercise amid the civilian population, we'll be able to help you more. >> ending hamas, eliminating hamas is clearly one of the goals of whatever the response is. if you know the leaders that carried out the attack, isn't that also to eliminate the leadership of hamas? it may not all be geographically located where everyone is expecting the first moves. can you speak to what the retaliation will look like and

how wide it will range? >> the retaliation that we've already received. we had a preemptive retaliation by hamas. a big question, nicolle, if we and when we enter gaza on the ground, the question is what's going to happen with hezbollah to the north? whether is ral la, the head of hezbollah will watch this incursion and continue sipping tea in beirut, or will he unleash a military power many times that of hamas. hamas may be 15,000 rockets. hbdz has 115,000 rockets. it has a military force which has been fighting in syria for a decade, very experienced. israel will be faced with at least a two-front war. it could be more, if there are upheavals in the west bank, even among radical elements of

israel's arab population. it's going to be tremendously challenging for us, and costly. i think haviv would agree with me, we have no choice now. we actually have to pursue this. we want to uproot hamas from the gaza strip. it is very important that we engage in an intimate discussion with our american allies, our arab allies. it's not too early to do that. we don't want to be at the end of this operation holding the keys to gaza. we will need an international effort to build the strip, develop the strip, promote an alternative leadership, a peaceful leadership for gaza. gaza has tremendous potential. it could be, as we say, the riviera of the mediterranean. not under the leadership of hamas terrorist organization. >> hmentsaviv and michael, i know most of you care the most

for these people. ali velshi's extraordinary reporting since he's been on the ground. ali. >> reporter: we're 2 1/2 miles from gaza. we just saw an interception while the ambassador was speaking. so we moved a little bit. i will say it's otherwise relatively quiet here. that's going to become relevant for what i tell you in a second. this might be the calm before the storm. typically at this time of night there are several interceptions. we're certainly hearing the jets going over to gaza, and we're hearing the thuds. we're that close, you feel the concussive boom over here. the tricky part is these hostages. there are about 150 family members who believe family members are being held hostage. they can't confirm whether they're dead or alive. one of those women who is believed to have been taken is

vivian silver, 74 years old, a canadian who has been living for decades in a kibbutz on the border of gaza. she's a peace activist and reconciliation activist. she works with palestinian women. there's certain health care you can't get in gaza, so people have to come across and get health care in israel. she will pick them up at the border and take them for that health care. her family believes she's been taken by hamas. i spoke to her son today, jonathan, and asked him to describe what his mother was about. >> she was obsessed with peace, you know. violence was always wrong in her mind. so she would say now, even though our communities are wiped out, she would say we don't need more dead babies. we need to stop the violence now. i call on everybody, the israeli

government, hamas, canada, everybody to put pressure on both sides to negotiate and to get the captives out. >> reporter: he mentioned canada, of course, because she's canadian. his point is everybody should be putting their emphasis on the negotiation, the release of the hostages. even though the troops are amassed ready for a ground incursion, perhaps that could be used as leverage to get the negotiation under way. he believes if they're able to negotiate for the release of the hostages, that may set the table for further negotiations so this doesn't go forward as a ground war. the thing a number of israelis have told me, as determined as they are to see the destruction of hamas that my other friends are talking about here, they are worried that this is not going to be easy. a ground incursion will result in many deaths of israeli soldiers as well as, of course, the palestinians living on the

other side who are civilians, not just the hamas soldiers. there's a lot going on right now. the families of the hostages are angry, too, but they want the priority put on getting their family members released before the war begins -- the ground war begins, if that's possible. >> ali, do they feel like the line and the access to information from the government, both about what is known about their loved ones who have been taken hostage and about what is planned militarily that may impact where their loved ones are taken. do they feel like the lines of communication are open? >> they don't. in fairness to the israeli government, everywhere where you and i have reported on, that's always an issue, families of people taken captive never feel like they're getting good information flow, including in the united states when american hostages are being held by other governments or terrorist

organizations. that said, there has been criticism, and tb idf has acknowledged that a lot of things went wrong in the last few days. there was a massive intelligence failure that allowed this to happen. there was a slow military response around gaza. the military, people have said, yeah, there's something wrong. we have to look at that closely. for the moment, however, the government is conveying the message that the ground incursion is imminent. they're ready to go. you've seen richard engel's reporting. the question is, there hasn't been an active discussion with the families about what does this incursion, this invasion of gaza, this ground war in gaza mean as it relates to your family members who are held hostage. that doesn't mean they're not thinking about it. that's not an ongoing dialogue between the families and the government or the military right now. >> so much worry and pain and

trauma. ali velshi, with what you've just reported, please don't take this as mother henning, please stay safe. haviv gur, we will continue to call on you. mr. ambassador, we need you to stick around a little longer. you have said and you have written that this war is unlike anything israel has ever confronted before. the events of the last several days have impacted everyone in israel's daily life, every aspect of it. we'll talk about what it's like there right now, as well as families still searching for loved ones. with one of america's closest allies suffering such a tremendous loss, it should be surprising, shocking, when an x american president and possible presidential nominee again comes right out and criticizes israel and its leader and praises the terrorists, but we're talking about donald trump, of course. so we shouldn't be surprised.

it's also very dangerous. we'll talk about it. later in the broadcast, a closer look at how the massacre unfolded through images and videos that have been compiled by the very skilled investigative journalists at "the new york times" and the story those pictures tell. all that and more when ""deadline: white house"" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. inues after a. don't go anywhere.

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according to "e w york times," one retired israeli general saw calls and alerts coming through, and together with a close friend drove directly toward where the attacks were. quote, mr. ziv said, as they drove closer to gaza, fires burned everywhere. an unchallenged hamas gunman fired intouildings and passing cars. as they traveled deeper toward the besieged village, they encountered small bands of israeli soldiers trying to fight back but clely outnumbered. quote, things were not ganized, mr. ziv said. he and mr. tibon linked up with a platoon of soldiers. the worst feeling was knowing that although they were some of the first responders, they were already too late. at least an estimated 100 hostages are being held by hamas for whom there is no clear path

forgetting them back home. even as israeli citizens gather their fallen loved ones, there are still many missing. joining us is ilad levy whose niece has been missing since saturday's attack. tell me about your niece and the last time you heard from her and what your thoughts are today. >> sure, thanks for having us and good afternoon. my niece rroi is 19 years old, typical teenager, taylor swift fan. last time we heard from her was on saturday morning, the alarms, the sirens were going at 6:30. we had a few hours when we didn't hear from her, but her mother got the 9:30 text message, very brief, very short

saying hi, mom, i'm okay. i'm busy, i love you. that was it. that was the last time we heard from her. >> we are still i think in this country trying to process what it is that you're processing without the benefit of the intimacy of the geography and understanding the threat that people were aware of and sort of subconsciously had logged in their brain. one question that still isn't totally clear to me is how this happened. what is your understanding of the timeline, and how does that last text to her mom fit into the timeline? >> we're talking about our roi. we understand they attacked the base at 7:00 or 7:30. the details are not exact.

at some point around 10:00 or maybe 10:30, could be 10:00 to 11:00. roni was in a communication room and relatively safe so the terrorists couldn't get in. once they figured out they couldn't get in, they did actually what they've done in the villages with the civilians, they just burned the whole thing. we know there was a fire and there was thick smoke that got into the room so they couldn't breathe, they couldn't see. one soldier that was inside broke a window and basically evacuated we don't know how many. we know he's safe. two others survived. a few others went out, and that's it. that's the last thing we know around our timeline. >> what is that like to have

such facts that you can hang on to. you've got the 9:30 text, mom, i'm busy, but i'm okay. a pretty typical text from a 19-year-old. but then nothing but questions and fear. >> i think, look, it's unimaginable. the family is devastated. but we're very mission oriented, we're very resilient. on saturday night when we didn't hear from her, we started to make all the calls that we could make. sunday morning the parents went all over the hospitals. they gave dna samples. obviously they were looking for her. the parents are speaking together, they're sharing information. once in a few hours we hear the worst of all from other parents, that their daughter was

confirmed dead. so it really -- and also we know now we're facing probably only bad options. >> ambassador, you talked eloquently on tuesday about how everyone knows someone looking for rony. can you talk about what that's like plus five days? >> first of all to the levy family, i wish you the greatest strength. i hope rony comes back to your healthy. a great sorrow but inspiration. you have the spirit of israel. your strength as a family, togetherness as a family, your commitment to your daughter and your niece, it's inspiring. i do not want to belittle it in any way, but i hear these stories every day from multiple sources, from my children.

this morning the two sons of the rabbi who married my daughter, two sons who, like so many israeli reservists, when they heard about the battle, didn't wait for a call, put on their uniforms, left their families, their children, went south to join their units and did not come home. that funeral was held today for the two brothers buried side-by-side in jerusalem with their father officiating. extremely difficult to bear. we draw strength from one another. as i said earlier, the agonizing irony of this is that hamas has reminded us of our family ties, of our national resilience and will, and we will persevere. i want to go back, if i could, nicole, to a question you asked mr. levy about how this could happen. i think it bears going into a bit, if you don't mind.

obviously i have been following iran, the iranian issue for 20 years now. clearly there's a strong iranian connection here. about 90% of the rockets they fire at us, including one that hit down the road yesterday -- i'm in my safe room here. you see the books behind me, but it is actually a bomb shelter. these rockets are made in iran. if they're not made in iran, they're designed in iran made by iranian-trained hamas engineers. we know hamas is funded by iran, it is guided by iran, and that recently iranian officials met with the heads of hamas in beirut. you put the dots together and you have a strong, strong iranian complicity in this. we understand that. on our side, clearly there were failures. it's too early to start

apportioning blame. there will be investigations afterwards when the smoke clears. certain people will have to, as they say, take responsibility and make conclusions about their futures. that's not the first thing that happened. what really happened here and what's happened in the past. again, ironically, almost 50 years to the date in the past, when israeli military and political officials did not believe that the egyptian and syrian armies would attack us in what became known as the yom kippur war. and the reason they didn't attack us is because israelis couldn't believe that the egyptians and syrians having suffered such a humiliaing defeat only six years before that would ever attack israel again. that was known as the concept in israel. in this case there was a concept, too. my last job in government was as the deputy in the prime minister's office, deputy minister. i was in charge of diplomacy, but i had misfortune of being in

charge of the gaza issue for about a year. in liaising with our military, our intelligence, our security forces, there was a concept there as well. the concept was this, that hamas wears two hats. one hat is a terrorist hat clearly. the other hat, though, is a government hat. hamas was the de facto sovereign of an independent palestinian state known as gaza. there was a feeling that if hamas was incentivized through large payments of qatari cash, if we let 20,000 gaza flfrjts workers into israel every day and they'd bring back nice salaries, with social benefits, they got social benefits as well, that hamas would be very loathe to disrupt the status quo. a similar concept. it was wrong. it was wrong. i think that we're not the first nation to make these mistake. i thought those that thought the

iranian nuclear deal would somehow change the nature of the iranian regime were work. to incentivize them. when you're a terrorist, when you're a member of isis, member of al qaeda, hamas is no different, you don't operate according to a cost-benefit analysis. at least as we understand it. your benefit is in the hereafter. as an old professor used to say, destruction is not a deterrence for these people, it's actually an incentive. hamas doesn't care how many palestinians are killed in the effort to kill us. they occupy a different dark and evil universe, and it was a mistake. i think we're going to learn by that mistake, and we're never going to fall into that concept again. >> what you're describing is asymmetry, right? the assumption that you knew what you were dealing with when it was really an asymmetrical

party that morphed into something much more isis-like than in the past. i fell like that's a conversation that we'd love to pursue with you in the days and weeks to come. feels like perhaps the most important thing to make sure -- i think everybody understands that you were dealing with them thinking they were one thing. you see the savagery of saturday. it's clear they're very much something far different. to use your words, sort of playing for the afterlife. wow. elad levy, please come back and keep us posted on everything you and your family are hearing about roni? >> thank you. nicolle, if i ma -- one thing that's important for us to say. as you said, we're not set in the despair, as i told you, because we see a mission, and our mission is -- in our view roni is alive.

we don't know, but she's alive. probably kidnapped, which is a terrible situation. what we call is for a swift action from all the countries that call themselves western democracy, that share the same values of freedom and equality and humanity, and the u.n. and all other organizations that call themselves human organizations, for immediate action to release all the hostages, all the hostages taken by hamas in this barbaric action, all of them. they have children as young as 1 years old, 9 months old. they killed his parents, took him in. 40 kids like that. they have elders, 90, 95 years old. they have many, many females that they took, teenagers. they need to release all of them unconditionally. the world needs to unite.

you mentioned it. this is isis. the horrors that we've seen, i don't know if you've seen the pictures in the villages, and i never thought i would say something like that, not on national tv. they've done actions worse than the nazis. they actually violated bodies. so we call for swift action from all these countries to stand beside us and to release all the hostages immediately, unconditionally. >> elad levy, we will stay on this. our thoughts and prayers with you, with roni. i hope you're all reunited shortly. ambassador michael oren, thank you so much for your time. again, please stay safe. up next for us, the leader of a party that once took a crisis abroad very seriously is praising terrorist groups as, quote, really smart, end quote. how comments like those and the divisions here in our country

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these atrocities. you heard the prime minister say it. this is, this must be a moment for moral clarity. the failure to unambiguously condemn terrorism puts at risk not only people in israel, but people everywhere. >> more from u.s. secretary of state antony blinken in tel aviv earlier today standing side-by-side with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. echoing joe biden's calls for adamant, unequivocal support for israel in the face of hamas' terrorist attacks that have killed more than 1300 people, including 27 americans. it's a tragedy, and frankly, embarrassing that just hours before that happened in west palm beach, florida, it took the disgraced ex-president and current 2024 gop front-runner 20 minutes to mention the terror attack in israel during his

bizarre two-hour venti session before the crowd. he went after and criticized netaah he called himself, quote, the best friend israel has ever had in the white house, end quote. perhaps worse of all, he praised hezbollah as, quote, very smart. hezbollah is the terrorist group that ambassador oren was just talking about, that's just launched into israel this week, forcing israel to worry about fighting a war on two fronts. today israel's communications minister responded to donald trump and his dangerous and reprehensible comments telling israel's channel 13 this, it is, quote, shameful that a man like that, a former u.s. president ab bets propaganda. whether this man who might very

well be president again cannot be relied on he said, quote, obviously. joining our coverage, former cia director, msnbc senior national security analyst john brennan is back. also joining us, ambassador dan geller man, former israeli ambassador in new york. i don't know whether there's anything to say about donald trump at this point. i know there's an alert in this country to be on heightened alert. there's a real fear and the president of the united states talked yesterday about surging funding to his own department of homeland security to protect jewish institutions, jewish community centers and schools. when you hear a former american president praising hezbollah as very smart, i won-what your list of concerns are? >> well, you used words to describe that speech if i remember correctly. you said it was embarrassing,

bizarre and chaotic. i can think of no better description. i must say that watching it i was truly wondering how someone like that has actually occupied the oval office for four years and is attempting to, and according to the polls, has a chance to re-enter it. i truly think that the united states of america, the great united states of america deserves better. i think that what we did see in the last 24 hours is the difference between a person who was in the oval office now and the person who occupied it until two years ago. i think that president biden yesterday gave by far the most pro-israeli speech that any american president has ever given. that includes even harry truman

who recognized israel 11 minutes after it was established. it was a speech full of compassion and it really proves how the president really feels about israel, and i must tell you it gave us during these very, very difficult days, a lot of relief, a lot of composure, a lot of courage, and we felt that not only did we have a friend in the white house, but that america was in very good hands and, therefore, israel is in very good hands. when you talk about the alert, the very, very high alert, i'm not surprised, because i really think what we saw the last few days in israel to a great extent a preview, just a trailer, soon to be seen in a theater near

you. the horrors which witnessed in which hamas overtook by far isis in its cruelty and total disregard for human life, i think is a sign of what terrorists around the world are likely to do. as ambassador oren said, and very rightly so, hamas is really the proxy of iran. iran is the world's most prolific generator, financer and perpetrator of terror. i'm sure that iran was behind this, iran actually helped to plan it and to execute it, to a great extent because they wanted to derail and sabotage the upcoming deal between the united states, saudi arabia and israel, which was really in the making

and would bring a whole new reality to our region. hamas is not interested in peace. it is interested in unsettling and disrupting. i think what happened here, which is truly the worst thing that we have witnessed since the holocaust, including raping women and mutilating children and beheading people, was a testament to the cruelty of this horrible, horrible proxy of iran which in a way -- and i know this is very far-reaching, makes isis seem like mother teresa. >> director brennan, your thoughts. your thoughts? >> difficult to add to his eloquence, as well as his views about what has happened. i certainly feel for the people of israel who have had to go through such trauma.veeen in co

of my israeli friends and counterparts who have had loved ones, family, neighbors, killed as a result of the tremendously horrific atrocities perpetrated by hamas. so as we now are on the verge of, i think, seeing an understandable incursion by israel into gaza to be able to try to recover those hostages, i think what we're, we want to make sure that those very powerful and poignant words of president biden and secretary blinken contrasted to those comments by donald trump, i think the president and the secretary really reflected the views of the overwhelming majority of americans who are standing with israel at this very difficult time and are glad that our government, our country, is lending assistance to israel. now, at the same time i think

all of our hearts break and i'm sure the ambassador's heart breaks as well for those palestinians who have been subjected to hamas's terror campaign which now puts palestinians at great risk. we see all the palestinians who have been killed. so as was expressed by the president to prime minister netanyahu, we would certainly expect israel to follow the rules of war, making sure that there is going to be a limited amount of casualties, risks in terms of the civilian population but this is a very, very challenging and complex task, unlike anything we've seen. certainly in the recent past. >> and u.s. secretary of state antony blinken making a point to say that hamas hides behind civilian populations. they hide their weapons behind civilian populations. that israel does not target the civilian populations in his press conference earlier today. i would like to put both of you

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we managed to escape but there are a lot of friends that didn't. they're captives now in gaza. and we were saved by a miracle but there are friends that we love that aren't -- thank you for being here. it's really important.

>> that exchange ends with a big embrace. hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. that powerful and emotional connection took place earlier today as the united states secretary of state antony blinken reaffirmed the united states, quote, unequivocal support for israel. today, secretary of state blinken meeting with the prime minister and other israeli leaders in tel aviv, as well as survivors, like you saw there, of the horrific terror attack. blinken emphasized the united states is doing everything in our power to assist israel in securing the release of the hostages taken into gaza, among which are some americans. as the number of americans confirmed dead from saturday's terrorist attack has now reached 27. the hostage crisis is growing more explore tense with each passing hour and day. israeli prime minister netanyahu has vowed the complete siege of gaza, and said it would not be

lifted until the hostages are released. areas of gaza have been reduced to rubble and soot. right now more than 300,000 are displaced. right across the border, the military is preparing for a potential ground assault. earlier, our colleague allison barber saw a series of israeli tanks moving just two miles from the gaza border. let's bring into our coverage nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel at the israel-gaza border. tell me what you've seen today and what you expect in the coming hours. >> reporter: well, i can tell you what we've been seeing over the last few hours and minutes. continuous israeli airstrikes into gaza. not just concentrated in gaza city but all throughout the gaza strip as far as we can tell from where they are. they seem to be coming every few minutes and they seem to be quite intense. large munitions. there has been some rocket fire

fired by hamas coming into israel, intercepted by the iron dome system bundle much rocket fire coming out of gaza. mostly it has been israeli airstrikes going into gaza city and the areas around it. according to palestinian medical officials, they just updated their figures and they say that more than 1,500 palestinians have been killed since the, this air campaign began after saturday's hamas attacks. they say 6,000 palestinians have been injured. the big development that could happen at any time now, could it happen in the morning, it could happen tomorrow, we don't know. we know the israelis say they are ready for it, would be a ground incursion into gaza. which would not be just launched from here. we are on the northern side of the gaza strip. but it could come from many different directions and involve naval attacks into gaza. so we are seeing the air campaign now but not the ground campaign. >> richard engel, secretary of

state antony blinken made a point of explaining some of the hamas tactics for what we're about to see unfold in gaza. he said this. hamas uses civilians as human shields. they also hide their weapons behind civilian population centers. israel does not target civilians. any indication that hamas could or would change their ways as what you describe unfurls? >> reporter: well, hamas certainly does use human shields. it has just taken hostages and it is holding those hostages. they are both pawns to trade and human shields. when israel describes human shields in gaza, they mean hamas hides among the population and has some of its command centers allegedly under hospitals or under apartment buildings. and hamas certainly does do that. some of it is by constraints because they operate in a small

densely populated area. and some of it is for their own protection. i would not anticipate that they're going to change their tactics now and suddenly come out into the open. we also hear drones over the sky. this area is intensely watched. if hamas gunmen suddenly started to move in formations and move around in open areas in gaza, i think they would be targeted quite quickly. so will hamas change its tactics? hamas thinks its tactics are effective. if you listen to the hamas propaganda, and hamas has been putting out a lot of statements. they say what they did was legitimate. there was just a hamas statement in english a short while ago in which they claim they didn't hurt any civilians. they claim that they had been kind to the hostages. they insulted president biden. a lot of what you would expect from hamas. but there was no indication that they're going to change their tactics. they think what they're doing is right and justified and

effective and they have said they're preparing for the israeli potentially ill penalty in ground invasion and they welcome it so they can fight on their own territory where they know the terrain. >> your points in reporting about the use of propaganda are so interesting. it seems they are able to deploy some of that to great effect. we heard from an israeli official today who said the hospital is indeed out of fuel. the places where hamas terrorists beat, where they are. >> reporter: people stockpile fuel. not only hamas. the gaza strip is a place that is frequently cut off. it is not, under normal circumstances, goods come in and out of there freely. it is a country, or a territory that exists with shortages, with closures, all the time. so people live with generators. they live with fuel canisters.

so it's not surprising that hamas would stockpile some supplies before a possible invasion. that is not surprising at all. other people in gaza have been stockpiling as well. it depends on your economic capacity. even now, those stockpiles, according to civilians who are inside, what is important to realize is, not everyone inside gaza is hamas. there areal, many who loathe hamas. they just want to live their lives. they try to stockpile fuel and food so they can live normally. and even many people that we've spoken to who are not hamas members are starting now to run very low on supplies. so stockpiling what you can is not an unusual activity. >> richard engel, you are our eyes and ears in the region for all manner of crises, and unfortunately, as you just described the civilian population in gaza, it is all too frequent. what are your reflections in terms of what you've seen since

you've been on the ground there this time? >> reporter: it's i think how much people have forgotten about this conflict. people were asking me, why don't the palestinians just leave? why isn't this like ukraine? they're under attack. why aren't the borders to egypt and other areas open? why aren't we seeing a stream of refugees heading into other countries? people don't necessarily, or maybe they've forgotten because so many years have passed since there's been an intense middle east war and this is intensifying. it could become a broader middle east war. and they've forgotten the dynamic here. has the population. they are run by, there are 2 million people as you mentioned in the gaza strip. they are run by hamas. hamas took over throughout the previous government. the people there have no choice who governs them. many of them do not like hamas

but they can't leave. they can't overthrow their government. and now they feel that they are being punished for the actions, the brutal actions that hamas took and continues to justify. so when i'm here, and i've been here before. i've covered conflicts between hamas and israel numerous times. i've covered them from inside gaza. this time we're covering them from outside gaza. not by choice. we're covering it from outside gaza because we can't get into the gaza strip. it is completely sealed off. and to add to your question, it's strange how much time has passed and how much people have forgotten about the basic dynamics of this conflict, and also, what makes this one so different was the sheer brutality of hamas. we had not seen that kind of thing before, where hamas went door to door, executing people, executing entire families. the increased skill that hamas had in its military tactics, and the hostage dynamic.

hostage dynamic is profoundly different this time. in previous conflicts, israel was able to bomb and move in with, i don't want to say with impunity because there was always pressure, humanitarian pressure, international pressure, not to cause too many casualties. but now there are israeli civilians, american civilians inside the gaza strip as it is under attack. it is a nightmare for a military planner and a nightmare for the people who live in gaza. the people who do not support hamas. >> richard engel, everybody here is always indebted to you for your reporting. i think the sort of widening of the lens that you just provided is over important and so valuable. i'm thankful for you taking the extra minute at midnight to share with us. joining us, the former ambassador to the u.k. and to prime minister netanyahu. mr. ambassador, it is just after

midnight. first, let's start with what is happening right now as far as you understand. >> so israel is at war. we didn't want to be at war. we didn't want this conflict. it is being forced upon us by hamas who, as you know, brutally attacked us last saturday. and we are responding. and though we didn't want this war, if we are forced to fight, and we are, we will win and we will win decisively but it's been a very difficult few days for israel. >> what is the psychic state of your country? the ten stages of grief. is the trauma settling in? how are people doing? >> i think the shock has passed. it is still there but we're moving on. there's a lot of grief. we've been burying our dead. and every day there are countless funerals in places

that i work in the government building, people are asking to take an hour off here, an hour off there to visit a funeral of a friend or family member. it's difficult. at the same time, it's interesting. israel's politics over the last couple months has been very polarized. we've been arguing politics very strongly, very passionately. and maybe these terrible attacks by hamas, as was said by secretary blinken when he was here, and my prime minister, isis-type attacks in their brutality. but maybe the sheer brutality of it all has been a wake-up call for israelis. we've got this maybe new sense of national unity. and that has been reflected in the politics with the establishment now of the new national unity government. emergency government for the crisis. members of the opposition have joined and the idea that we work together. i think israelis are determined

to win this. we didn't want it but we'll win this. you see people volunteering for military service. you've seen israelis living abroad. come back especially to join their units. my daughter was on holiday in italy and she came back and the first thing she did when she came back, she rang up a unit and volunteered to serve. she's now in the south and if i as the father am worried about my daughter, i'm one of hundreds of thousands of israelis who has either a child or a husband or a brother or sister in the military. the country is at war. >> when you say win this, what does that look like? >> it means defeating hamas. hamas, as i think richard said, hamas has been ruling the gaza strip for 16 years. and there has been intermittent outbreaks of violence over that

period. but there was hope in some circles that hamas was moderating. yes, that the responsibility have governing of 2 million people would force them to be more pragmatic and more moderate. but what we saw on saturday just exposed them for what they are. they are an isis-type terrorist group. they are ruthless. they are, the values that they do, they are gruesome in a way. there were beheadings, there were rapes, there was massacres. you've all reported this. i don't need to go into the gruesome details but they showed us what they are. they attacked us and when this is over, it won't be easy. we'll have many combat casualties and it might go on for longer than we want. at the end of this, hamas will be crushed and hopefully, there will be room for a new reality

in gaza. >> mr. ambassador, i ask the following question with all the humility that americans should ask this question and with the added humility of an alumni of the george bush administration. it seem like there are big questions among israeli citizens about not just how the attack wasn't anticipated, but also, about the excruciatingly slow response time and what you're describing. did you understand hamas to be indiscernible? >> it was a wake-up call for israelis. you're right. 100% correct. there is a feeling that we didn't play our part correctly. that the israeli national security was effectively conducted. we pride ourselves in israel on

krg excellent intelligence services. israelis like to say it's mossad, the west in the world. and they are very good. here, nevertheless, hamas was obviously planning this for weeks if not months. we weren't ready for them. we didn't anticipate the attack. you're correct when you say, the attack happened. there is criticism amongst the communities along the border that the army wasn't quick enough to respond. so we are in a period of soul searching. what i think will happen was, we're focused now on winning this war. we don't have a choice. we have to win this war. when it is over. we'll have investigations, we have historical precedent for this. israel is a democracy after the 1973 war which opened up in a similar way. there was an attack that wasn't seen, or a surprise attack. there were public inquiries, lessons were learned.

there were consequences for certain officials involved. after the 2006 lebanon war, there was a similar process of a public discussion and inquiry. it's possible we'll have something similar now. that's in the future. the focus has to be on winning the war. that's where we are. hamas must come out of this decisively defeated. and that's not just important to create a new reality in gaza where hamas is no longer the threat it has been. though we've seen arab-israeli peace move forward in the last couple years, and there is no talk of expanding that circle of peace to include saudi arabia. there are still bad actors in the region. whether it is hezbollah or the iranians over the horizon. it is important that they understand, if they strike against israel, we will hit back and we will hit back hard. that's israeli deterrence.

if they think you can hit the jewish state with impunity, so we're just inviting more aggression. it is important that we demonstrate to hamas and everyone else can see in the region. you attack our people. you butcher our civilian population. you will pay a price. >> you talked about the divisions in your country before, and the unity after saturday's terrorist attack. how has that changed, given netanyahu? >> it has changed our government. we had very fractured politics. the government and the parliamentary opposition in constant bickering and argument. very vibrant democracy in israel and we have very loud and passionate arguments. but now large parts of the opposition have joined the government in this sort of war-time national crisis coalition, and i think that's good. because if you are in war, you want the widest possible

consensus and it is good. it is good that we've got this government now. it's good that the country is uniting and that's the way we can win. >> please stay safe. to your daughter, who has come back from vacation to serve her country, we wish for her safety as well. thank you very much for spending some time with us. . when we come back, the trail of terror. how hamas's barbaric attack unfolded. some of the most horrific images from the kibbutzes targeted by the terrorists. we'll be joined by "the new york times" journalist who helped compile those pictures to tell that shocking story after a short break. later in the broadcast, the misguided attempt by some in the republican party to pit military aid for ukraine against support for israel. our friend and law professor will dismantle that false premise when he joins us later in the broadcast. please stay with us. broadcast please stay with us. this is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified.

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we thought it was important to tell the next story. so israel for all of its importance in the world, for all of its culture and natural beauty, is not a huge place. if you set out at the top of our program today at 4:00 p.m. eastern driving from the mediterranean sea on the western coast, you would right now be arring on the dead sea at the eastern border. if israel were one of our 50 states, it would be around the size of the smallest, new jersey. to really understand this attack, we can go to the small

pieces of it. observe the specific instances. so from here on out, once again as we did in the last hour, fair warning. we've done a little bit of blurring. some of what you're about to see is graphic because the terror attack was graphic. first this map, the area you see highlighted, are highlighted for a reason. all sites of terror attacks and mass slaughters. "the new york times" poured through all the available video from the south first responders and other outlets documenting what took place on saturday. indiscriminate shooting at the nova music festival. people burned so badly at nir oz, some people i couldn't recognize them. take a look at what they found in kibbutz be 'eri. more than 100 people were killed. this video is graphic. do we have that? at 6:00 a.m. on saturday

morning, security cameras show two armed men shooting into a car before entering the kib it is. hours later, they removed three bodies fro the car. back to our ma'am. kfar azza, a massacre. the israeli commander told "the new york times," some graphic video from the times. this is video from that location that shows a car, doors open, bodies oth ground. these videos, perhaps more than anything, reveal just how horrific thisocity was, and how it repeated itself over and over and over again. joining our conversation, staff writer for the "new york times," and author of rise and kill first. the story of israel's targeted assassinations. i read your journalism for many years. thank you for being here.

first this reporting feels like the first draft of history. of israel's october 7th. let's talk about the reporting first. take me inside this project. >> you know, i w embedded to one of the commander forces that freed -- the sights we saw this week are worse than bucha. the extent of hatred, evil, unimaginable. and this is an area in a country that is used to war and difficult times and difficult

sights. nobody expected that. not just the intelligence sense of no warning. but nobody expected those people to cross the border with one order, to kill as many jews as possible. and i think that it is not just it was to kill. now we have video of the perpetrators. they were carrying phones. they had their orders to video, document what they are doing. i think, not knowing but seeing all of that, that they had orders to humiliate, to torture, to dehumane people of all kinds, all ages. document and send it over immediately to special groups

created by the leaders in hamas in gaza, and they immediately put those on the social network, and for the israelis to see that. this is going to be a national trauma for many years. i think it is all of our fears of the holocaust. the inability to live in our country safely. and suddenly, the borders are not clear. people always thought that the division was on the other side and suddenly, they see this. one of the fighters rushed with his gun to help. he said i couldn't imagine just in the middle of israel, someone is shooting an rpg on me. he killed that one but there were so many. and i think this action, the

decision to take this action by hamas, whoever took this decision, they said it was the whole region to live on its sword for many, many years. because there's no way that true or not, justice or no justice, there's no way i think in the foreseeable future that the israelis would trust the palestinians, the moderate palestinians, and i'm saying this is a fact, that they will trust them to have a diplomatic solution on this dispute. this is horrible. >> so sentencing the region to live on the sword. what does that mean? what does that look like? >> well, we've seen how it looks like. and it will continue. i think people maybe don't

understand the mindset from the israeli point of view. it is not just about revenge. it is revenge for sure. we hear the change in vocabulary from israeli political military leaders that is all using language and words that were never used before. and it is clear what they are planning to do. it is not just about revenge. i think that hamas, for reasons i cannot understand, hamas has left israel with no choice. because if the israeli understanding of the middle east, if it does not react with massive force to the extent of disassem disassembling, not the movement. the movement is the heart and minds of people. you can be destroy it. but to destroy the hamas regime. unless this is happening and israel would not regain its deterrence, then israel has no chance to live here because

other foes will see and do the same. and israel is almost doomed. it has an obligation to take down, which means to conquer much of gaza. >> our last guest, the ambassador acknowledged that mistakes were made and that there would be an investigation. how patient do you think the israeli civilian population will be for answers about what happened on saturday? you described it as bucha-like. in your words, it was worse than bucha but it was eight or nine buchas at the same moment. >> the number is staggering. i heard the ambassador saying, mistakes were done.

basically, taking responsibility for mistakes that all the different entities of the state, the military, the intelligence have done, except for one entity which he did not take responsibility for, that is his boss, prime minister benjamin netanyahu. who by many israelis see as not just the prime minister, he is in charge of everything in the state. but because benjamin netanyahu was warned so many times. but all the chiefs of the intelligence, that the continuation of the political crisis is seen by israeli enemies as weakness, and that in secret chatter among the so-called, the members of the so-called axis of resistance, they say this is the right time. secret intercept of the leaders say now we need to attack israel now. and the leaders of the

intelligence and the military warned netanyahu many, many, many, many times. they said if you do not stop the legislation, we will face with a preemptive strike by one of our enemies. and benjamin said for reasons again i cannot understand. his reasons or hamas reasons, benjamin netanyahu decided to continue with the legal judicial overhaul. and i think now he, or people in israel, expected that he will take some responsibility. the chief of staff today said about the military, we did not supply the israelis the safety and security we should have supplied them last saturday. he took responsibility. but netanyahu is taking no responsibility. we just saw his ambassador, head of media, who says everything,

yes, it was not okay, the military was not good. we don't describe it, we will investigate this today. so they do everything but not investigating today because they spread the responsibility and they do everything but taking responsibility. the polls that were published today, i think published tomorrow, see that the public in israel, the support to netanyahu and likud is declining. >> i understand what you're saying. while netanyahu was carrying out his autocratic move by many in this country, his judicial overhaul, he was being warned by his intelligence individuals that that would leaf israel vulnerable to a strike from one of israel's enemies? >> repeatedly. he was warned on two, i would

say, two different ways which are connected. one is that as much as this judicial continues and more and more reserves quit serving, the israeli security, much of it dependent, especially the pilots, dependent on the operational capacity is dependent on the reserves. and the second is that the israeli enemies, secretary general of the hezbollah, the supreme leader from iran, and leaders of hamas and the palestinians, they are all saying, if there is time to attack israel, now is the time. israel is weak. israel is like spider web. that's the famous phrase used, very strong from afar but when you touch it, it melts in your hands.

israel is disintegrating, and if according to this intelligence that was given many times to prime minister netanyahu, if there is a reason why they are not attacking is that they maybe think the israelis are doing their job for them. at the end of the day, this prophecy, this gloomy tragic prophecy that the enemies of israel would try to use this opportunity, came to reality. we see the results. >> a tragedy. we will continue to call on you. thank you very much. grateful to get to talk to you today. thank you. ahead for us, two u.s. allies. two democracies under attack and the cynical work of republicans trying to pit one against the other. we'll explain after a very short break. after a very short break. acks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪

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our support for israel is rock solid. we're working urgently to get israel what it needs to defend itself and we will do so even as we continue to support the people of ukraine as they fight against russian aggression. make no mistake. we can and will stand by israel, even as we stand by ukraine. the united states can walk and chew gum at the same time. >> but we need to be reminded, right? that was u.s. secretary of

defense lloyd austin on the imperative of could go just that, walking and chewing gum at the same time. to provide aid to our allies and friends in ukraine and israel. it comes as people like missouri senator josh holley, talked about diverting aid to israel. our allies, a rare outpost of struggling democracy, surrounded by authoritarian enemies sworn to destroy them by general sidal aggression. our national security demands that we defend both. not pit their needs for funds against one another. the path is clear. joining us, the man who wrote those words. he has taught constitutional law at harvard law school for five decades and is considered one of the most foremost experts in the world. jong me at the table, and msnbc

analyst peter. am i saying it right? i practiced but i can never be sure. professor tribe, i want to start with the funning issue. i want to get to, before i go to bed, i pull up your twitter feed. its usually the last thoughts i have, the warnings and worries you have. let's start first with this false choice about funding our allies. >> it's humbling to know my thoughts are the ones you look at. >> i should be watching netflix. but i'm looking at your tweets instead. >> i'm deeply torn by all of this. my ancestral roots are in places like ukraine. i have russian refugee parents and grandparents who come from that blood-soaked region. i have first cousins, family, who live now in israel.

i see them both as beleaguered, as i say, the outposts of democracy. when i hear someone as bright as josh hawley play them against each other, it outrages me, as well as tearing me apart. we can do both. we can defend both of these democracies. even with a dysfunctional congress. we do have billions of dollars of sovereign russian assets. frozen pursuant to sanctions in the united states and the other countries of the g-7. and i've done a careful study with lawyers, a careful study of why the law today allows president biden with the stroke of a pen to seize and transfer billions of dollars of those assets with no add burden on our taxpayers, directly to help

rebuild ukraine and of course, defend it. it seems to me absolutely imperative that we do that. that we do it without decreasing at all the aid that we give to israel. but until congress gets its act together and has a speaker of the house, the continuing resolution that would be essential to replenish the iron dome that protects the people of israel from continued onslaught with rockets, that can't happen. it seems we need desperately to do both. the connections between these two democracies are deep in our own roots. it is in our essential national interest to advance the cause of human rights in both places. >> and i know the essential human rights and the right to live in safety are some of the messages that you've, it seems,

it has pained you that it isn't easy for people to articulate this when it comes to israel. will you say a little about that? >> well, it seems to me in the long run, all people have to have dignity and equality. that's why i'm deeply sim that a athleticic to the rights of palestinians, as well as the rights of israelis. when i see people like steve bannon and this guy adam gillette of accuracy in media pitting them against each other, and having trucks driving through cambridge making it look like the jewish students of cambridge are naming and shaming the kids in various organizations that issued statements of sympathy to the palestinians and indeed, outrageous statements of sympathy to hamas, it seems to me that exemplifies the way in which putin and iran and their

proxies in america, people like bannon and accuracy in media specialize in ripping us apart. dividing us against one another. putting us against each other when we ought to unite in the basic principles that every person deserves dignity, equality and freedom. israel now clearly has to defend itself. that is going to mean unspeakable pain for palestinians and for the hostages. some of whom are american citizens. some of whom are israelis. you can't expect israel to simply turn the other cheek when isis likes to slaughter, the beheading of little baby, families raped, the very things that happened in bucha are being

done by hamas in israel. it is important to know the techniques that putin and that the mercenaries, that advanced techniques have been replicated by the hamas in israel. and whether or not we focus as ronend, we have to put the blame where it belongs. the blame in ukraine is on russia. the blame in the attack on israel is on hamas. but in systemic long-festering problems that led to these attacks have to be attacked as well. but first things first. we now have to unite as the president, i think, eloquently said the other night. we have to unite behind israel and its right to defend itself. there will be time after that

happens to assess blame and work toward long-term solutions. >> professor tribe, president joe biden in remarks yesterday, it was an antisemitism roundtable that he attended. he revealed, i think it was the first time he talked about it publicly, taking all his kids and grand kids to dachau. we are living in a time when republicans are supporting the banning of books and censorship of what is taught in terms of our history. the parallels to ukraine and the tactics used in bucha and the, i think there are nine sites where massacres took place on saturday, are isis like and they're similar. the dehumanization has a clear code of history. this is the most jews that have been murdered since the holocaust. what are your concerns about this sort of aversion to learning from the world's

history? >> it seems to me that erasing history is the most horrible thing we can possibly do. it is only if we deeply remember the past that we can hope not to repeat it. it is partly because people have erased the history of the holocaust. because not enough people exposed their kids, not just their biological and adopted kids but the kids they teach, to the history of antisemitism, the history of dehumanization at places like dachau. it is because of that that it is possible for groups like isis and al qaeda and their latest incarnation, hamas, to slaughter human beings in the name of the afterlife. in the name of some reward beyond. but as long as we have these religious wars. as long as we pit ourselves against each other and not recognize deeply our shared

humanity, there isn't going to be any hope. the reason i remain optimistic is i think in the long run, the book burners lose. in the long run, those who try to erase history will be overcome by the great power of reality. and i think the power of reality and truth will prevail. i have to believe that. i've spent my life trying to advance those causes. i have students all over the world who work to advance them. and it humbles me to think that i have at least some minor role in reminding people of what is deeply important

please stay with us. th us. when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating,

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to become a guardian of liberty, today. we're back with professor lawrence tribe and peter barnart. peter we were talking in the break about when everyone is off tv trying to figure out when the next stage of this is, and no doubt it will ensnare a lot of civilians.

>> yes, and we don't know. nobody -- israelis are overraged by their rage and agony at the sheer evil. everyone know, all of us, we're in a total fog of days. the trauma is so deep, especially for jews who have this ancestral trauma like the professor and i. i think we need to remember what it felt like in america after 9/11. we didn't want to hear anything except we will crush them. and the british and other countries said fine, but they weren't actually doing us a service, because look at what ultimately happened. we have to ask hard questions about what is going to happen. israel can raise gaza to the ground, and then what? it can't govern it without being in its own vietnam or its own iraq, because the gazans will

fight them, and any government that they put in, the gazans will fight them. they can kill a lot of hamas members. a lot of hamas members deserve to tie and destroy the weapons. but what about the children? children in gaza have been living under a block kate in a place the u.n. calls unlivable, an open-air prisons that bn been bombarded again and again and again. they're going to inflict this, and you think those are the people who you think you're going to live along with? these kids who have suffered excruciating trauma in nobody in my jewish community wants to hear this. they think if we say these things, we're traitors. but these are the things we should have been thinking about after 9/11 in the united states. we need to ask them, what next after you pulverize gaza? >> what next is like the most profound thing anyone could say right now. i appreciate you for saying

that. i hope you'll come back. thank you very much. professor lawrence tribe, i didn't have time in today's broadcast to tell your story of fame and connection to my early childhood. thank you so much. we have to sneak in another break. we'll be right back. other break. we'll be right back. -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients may pay as little as $0 copay. go to jubliarx.com now to get started. (sean) i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro!

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wow, thank you so much. i know you could watch just about anything, but we're really grateful to you for choosing us and letting us into your homes. our coverage continues now on "the beat" with ari melber. hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. i'm ari melber.