other solution besides what we're expecting, this big ground invasion. he's saying there's not another solution, and he's warning the public, he's warning the governments, and that's where he says, "we're going to see what bibi is made of." >> how do you think this current administration will respond to this? they certainly are supportive of israel but worried about the toll on civilians in gaza. >> super interesting. another comment by the president. you can see the full video on axios.com. we also praises president biden. he said that president biden made a very strong statement, and he says in here, he says that he personally is pretty much a hard liner. he was asked, what do you see ahead in the middle east, what the picture looks like, and he said, in a bushian way, says, "doesn't look so good, especially if you're on the hamas side." >> appreciate it. mike allen, thank you. talk to you again later this morning. thanks for getting up "way

too early" on this friday morning and all week long. "morning joe" starts right now. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, october 13th. we are following fast-moving developments out of israel. the country's military is telling us more than a million people -- telling more than a million people to leave their homes this morning as it prepares a potential full-scale ground invasion in the wake of the terror attacks by hamas. we'll have a live report for the very latest on the ground there. plus, an update on the biden administration's efforts to prevent further escalation in the region with top officials on the ground this morning in israel and jordan. also ahead, the republican-led chaos on capitol hill reached yet another level last night when the party's nominee for speaker just dropped out of the race. we'll talk about how that impacts the country and world events. along with joe, willie, and

me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. and president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass is with us here in new york, as well. nearly a week into the war, the atrocities carried out by hamas are still coming to light. on social media yesterday, the israeli defense forces released photos showing the burnt and decapitated bodies of babies. due to their graphic nature, we're not going to show the images here this morning. among the many israelis missing, ten members of a family who descended from a holocaust escapee who, himself, passed away just last year. speaking in tel-aviv yesterday, u.s. secretary of state antony blinken described some of the horrors he had been shown in photos. >> it's hard to find the right words. it's beyond what anyone would

ever want to imagine, much less actually see and, god forbid, experience. a baby, an infant, riddled with bullets. soldiers beheaded. young people burned alive in their cars or in their hidaway rooms. i could go on, but it's simply depravity in the worst imaginable way. >> meanwhile, in its ongoing response to the terrorist ambush and ahead of a potential ground invasion of gaza, israel's military has called for the entire population of the northern half of gaza to move to southern gaza within the next 24 hours. that area home to just over one million people, accounts for

about half the territory's population. the united nations warning such a move would be impossible without devastating humanitarian consequences. the u.n. has asked for the order to be rescinded to avoid transforming, quote, what is already a tragedy into a calamitous situation. hamas has told palestinians not to comply with israeli demands, calling it, quote, psychological warfare. joining us now from the israel israel-gaza border, chief foreign correspondent richard engel. thank you for being with us again this morning. what more can you tell us about the practicality of what israel has requested, which is that the northern half of gaza move to the southern half of gaza in the next 24 hours? >> reporter: and it is asking people to do that while they are under attack, while they are sealed off, and while the power, electricity, gas, all supplies have been cut off. so people are -- it is not an organized evacuation in any way. people have just been told,

leave by any means possible. you can see behind me right now, that is the northern gaza strip. that is gaza city. that is the most populated part of gaza. as you said, there are just over 2 million people in the gaza strip. it is broken up into roughly two heavily populated areas. the north with gaza city and then in the south. what israel has done, what israel has said, everyone should leave the north, evacuate gaza city, evacuate an entire city of a million people, and get in their cars, get in donkey carts, and there are still donkey carts in use in gaza, and move south, move below the wadi gaza valley. people in gaza are trying to do it. hamas has told them not to leave, not to obey the order, but people are listening. they are packing whatever they can, taking a little food, taking some supplies, if they have any batteries, any

gasoline, they're taking that with them, and they are trying to move south. overnight, we heard some of the most intense bombardments so far. we were here all night, and the incoming was intense, one of the other of another with israeli tanks, fire. we are now hearing drones above. this offensive is continuing. we will see today if the attacks do lessen to a degree as people move south. that remains unknown. hospital officials inside gaza also tell us they're overwhelmed. there are thousands of dead and injured, and they're running out of supplies. people are being treated on the floor. hospitals are enormously crowded. now, under attack, cut off, people are taking what they can and trying to get out of that city right now and move to what could be a safer area before

what is anticipated to be an israeli onslaught into gaza. now, it seems quite clear the onslaught will focus on the north, on gaza city. >> richard, let me ask you about that anticipated onslaught. as you said, israel has been responding from the air over the last week or so. what could a ground assault, a ground invasion by the israeli militant look like here? >> reporter: well, one of the reasons that israel says that it wants people to leave is it is expecting a massive fight. it is expecting that hamas is dug in. when you expect to fight against an entrenched enemy, you are going to bring a lot of force to bear. israel has broughtartillery, an they move the tanks into the tight streets of gaza looking for hamas, concerned about booby traps, trying to destroy them, they will be firing a great

deal. so this area could soon become an open fire zone, and i think that's why israel is trying to tell people, leave the area right now. it'll be dangerous for the israelis because hamas is dug in. it'll be dangerous for hamas, clearly, but it will be very dangerous for any palestinians who stay behind and are caught up in what will soon be perhaps some of the most intense urban fighting we've seen anywhere in the world in years. >> richard, could you explain to our viewers in america why egypt seals its border with gaza and why they sealed the border soon after the attack? >> reporter: i dropped off. sorry, i can't hear you if you are asking. >> okay, very good. thank you, richard engel. we'll be asking richard haass that question. richard engel, thank you so much. please do everything you can to be safe. richard haass, we'll ask you that same question.

egypt, obviously, no friends of hamas. egypt who, of course, struck a peace deal with israel in the late 1970s. talk about why egypt has sealed off the border with hamas, because that obviously would allow a lot of palestinians to escape. >> egypt used to administer the gaza strip, and did until the 1967 six-day war. they know it all too well. there has been infiltration over the years into egypt of people committing terrorist attacks in egypt, among other things, so they just shut down the border as part of their larger effort to maintain internal security. it's about that simple. >> that really explains a larger point, that americans who are just now tuning into this, the atrocities that have happened, hearing about israel and hamas,

and, of course, the ongoing palestinian question. i had noticed over the past 10, 15 years, i'm sure you've noticed it even longer because you've been so involved in this region for so long, but a growing animosity toward the palestinian cause because of hamas, because of the palestinian authority, from arab governments. it used to be the arab league would get together and unanimously vote against israel. they would vote for causes that were near and dear to hamas' heart. that is no more. that's no longer. in fact, most of the sunni arab world has turned against hamas and, by extension, the palestinians living in the gaza strip, which is an ongoing tragedy. why? >> lots of reasons. one is the principal backer of

hamas who puts a lot of the sunni arab governments, shall we say, on notice. when saddam hussein invaded and occupied kuwait, who was cheering for saddam hussein? the palestinians. a lot of the sunni arab governments have a long memory. they have no illusions about that. hamas, again, their involvement doesn't make people comfortable. the one thing the arab governments, joe, have to be careful of, and we see it in the toing and froing with saudi policy here, is the palestinians still enjoy considerable popular support. in some ways, the governments are in different places in the arab world than the quote, unquote, arab street. the governments have to be a little careful not to get too far out in front of their population. if you have, for example,

al jazeera, you see palestinians getting hurt, it'll be the thing that will make governments careful. they face a situation then where sympathy for hamas, sympathy for the palestinians will grow. >> well, there's already, of course, a humanitarian crisis that is growing right now in gaza. those images are coming out of children, of elderly people being hurt by the attacks. many have died. richard, the question is, because, obviously, hamas knew this would happen. hamas just being blunt about it, if an israeli dies, that's a victory for hamas. if a palestinian dies while israeli is trying to go after hamas terrorists, it is also seen as a victory for hamas.

they don't care if their people die. in fact, they said, anybody that tries to make peace with israel will be shot. so the question is, richard, with the united nations warning of a coming humanitarian crisis that many would say is already there, what do the israelis do? what is their best move? they cannot allow gaza to remain run by these terrorists who have run it without an election since 2007. they have to go in, and they have to root out -- i was going to say isis. might as well be isis -- hamas. but how do they do it and avoid a catastrophic humanitarian crisis? >> i'll be controversial here. there is a difference between what israel will do or likely to do and what it should do. what i fear it will do is go in en masse. it'll be extraordinarily costly for israeli armed forces. several will be killed and

captured. i think it increases the odds dramatically, if there is a massive israeli campaign in gaza, the war will widen. that's the sort of thing i fear could bring hezbollah and others into the war. you will get the global international response. again, israel will lose some of the high ground. most of all, joe, i do not believe it will succeed if success is defined as eliminating hamas. i fear it could work the other way. i also think israel has better options. i would suggest two things. i would say, go after hamas in a discreet way, not a mass way. do targeted attacks, whether from the air or from the ground, when you have really high value, quote, unquote, actionable intelligence. go after hamas. second of all, shore up israeli defenses facing gaza. that was what started this or allowed this to happen. the weakness of israeli defense readiness against gaza. make it impossible for hamas ever to do something like this ever again, and go after

individual or units of hamas whenever you have a chance. but i would really be careful. i really have questions about reoccupation of gaza. we've seen this movie before. israel got out in 2005 for the very reason that this could not be sustained. when they got out, it created a vacuum which hamas has filled. i don't want a rerun here. >> of course, willie, hamas knew that with its barbaric actions, that it would pull israel in to gaza, almost setting a trap. richard put a lot of options out. the option i would start with is turning the screws on iran and iran's oil revenue as tightly as possible. all of hamas' funding at the end of the day, or most of it, like hezbollah's, like the rebels, like islamic jihad, it comes from iran. when iran doesn't have oil

money, they can't fund hamas. >> yeah, and we're hearing now that call from republicans and democrats alike about the $6 billion that we've been discussing and everything else. you have to turn the screws. richard, i wanted to ask you, as we're talk about the relationship between arab governments and hamas, about a name we haven't talked about much in the last week or so, and that's qatar, which hosts in lavish living quarters the leadership of hamas. they're not on the ground in gaza. they're in hamas calling for international jihad this week wednesday. what is the role of qatar in all of this? might they be able to help get some of the hostages out? you even have some former foreign policy officials in america saying, america should take or israel should take military action to take out the leadership of hamas inside qatar. seems unlikely. the point is, the people running the operation sit comfortably in a different arab nation that has been welcomed into the world,

hosted the world cup last year and all the else. >> they are the principal financial backers. if iran is the principal strategic backer, i guess you'd call it, qatar hinds behind the area they're only giving humanitarian money. money is fungible, so it doesn't bear scrutiny. the united states should put much more pressure on qatar. after 9/11, u.s. policy changed, and we declared we no longer drew a distinction between terrorists and those governments that supported terrorism. i actually think we ought to have a very rough conversation with qatar. what's holding us back, in part, is the united states is so dependent on them for its own military presence in this part of the world. you know, it's important home to a lot of u.s. military forces. it's not an easy conversation. but, you know, what we might want to do is talk about the parameters or put certain limits on the help they give to hamas. one other thing, i do think if

there is an exchange of hostages for hamas prisoners being held in israeli prisons, qatar will be at the center of it, possibly egypt, as well, but certainly qatar will play a significant role here. we've got multiple considerations here. it's just very hard to say, well, we're going to come down on qatar like a ton of bricks, because other things weigh against that. jonathan lemire, president biden positioning this country fully partnered side by side with israel. lots of strength and moral clarity in his words. secretary blinken backing him up there. but he is also running a government that has some parallels with israel right now in terms of the chaos in the republican party and no speaker of the house. >> yeah, no speaker of the house which we'll dive into later in the morning. steve scalise dropping out last night. president bide season a full-throated endorsement of israel. also some warnings about what could come next, like try to avoid civilian casualties.

be concerned about this humanitarian crisis. we heard it explicitly from secretary of state blinken while he was in israel this week, telling prime minister benjamin netanyahu, hey, tap the brakes as to what will happen next in gaza. richard, want to talk about the fate of the hostages. i've seen reporting this morning looking into why the white house is not sending boots on the ground there, in part, in deference to israel, but also because they don't know where the hostages are. they suspect they're spread out. they suspect they're hidden amongst civilian a targets. they also feel israel's intelligence isn't as good as it used to be, leading to the attack last week. if israel goes in this week, what do you think happens to the 100 odd hostages, including americans? >> obviously, they're in greater jeopardy than they are. hamas took the hostages for two reasons. one was to arrange some kind of swap to get their own people out. the other was to put a brake on israeli military action. if that brake doesn't work, and if there is widespread military

action, then, i don't mean to sound callous, but what worries me is the quote, unquote, value of the innocent people to hamas goes down. i fear that it puts them at greater risk. can i make a larger point? you put your finger on something really big. for the u.s. right now, for the biden administration, which has been incredibly supportive of israel, i thought the president's speech the other day was powerful and magnificent. but, privately, clearly, there's growing disagreement with what israel wants to do. the administration is trying to thread the needle. it is trying to be as supportive as you can of israel's right to retaliate, but privately saying, just because you might have the right to do certain things, is it really smart? will it leave you better off? trying to work this out so we are supportive of israel, yet, in some ways, try to pull them back, is threading the needle. that's exactly what the administration is doing. quite honestly, we all better hope, i actually think we all better hope they succeed. i worry about where this is heading. >> joe, president biden

obviously navigating this on the world stage while, back at home, there is questions hanging over capitol hill as to how to really get a functioning congress in place. here, we have a crisis, obviously, one of the gravest crises in the middle east, certainly possibly since 1973. we have a grave crisis in the center of europe with ukraine fighting against russian aggression. we have the continued fear that china is going to act aggressively against taiwan, and you have house republicans just inexplicably but not picking a speaker of the house. just make patrick mchenry the temporary speaker for now, for god sake, until everybody else can get their act together.

you not only have that, you have the republicans in the house in chaos in this unbelievably dangerous time for americans and the world. then you have donald trump, "the wall street journal" editorial page talking about donald trump's, quote, israeli war incite, saying mr. trump can't help himself from making everything about himself. it's the same way he handled the covid crisis, and it is what voters would get in a second trump term in a much more dangerous world. that's from "the wall street journal" editorial page this morning. of course, they're responding to what israelis are responding to, and that is, donald trump going out and praising hezbollah and attacking israel and its leaders. that's what is going on right now. there is a reason why the israelis are putting up billboards of joe biden in tel-aviv and thanking joe biden for his support. because that's what they need

right now. it's something that i know so many republicans want to give to the israelis, but they need to get their act together in the house. at least get a temporary speaker. they need to get a presidential candidate who actually doesn't undermine israel right after their worst attack in 50 years. we'll talk about that and much more when "morning joe" comes back. polar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven, full-spectrum relief for all bipolar 1 symptoms. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults.

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at 27 past the hour, now to the chaos on capitol hill. the republican battle for a new house speaker has descended into an even bigger mess this morning. just one day after the party nominated majority leader steve scalise for the position, the louisiana congressman withdrew from the race last night. >> i just shared with my colleagues i'm withdrawing my name as a candidate for the

speaker designee. if you look over the last few weeks, if you look at where our conference is, there is still work to be done. our conference still has to come together, and it is not there. >> joining us now, msnbc contributor mike barnicle, and another mike, the co-founder of "axios," mike allen, and congressional reporter for "the hill," mychael schnell. joe, what happened? what could have happened at this point? wouldn't it be a moment now more than ever where they need things to just function? get someone in place, let's go. >> it is inexplicable. i don't know of any political party that would ever act that way. we had a problem with newt gingrich. we took care of that problem in between sessions. he moved on. john boehner complained about

his problems, and for good reason. paul ryan quietly would grouse about it, but things were done in a somewhat orderly process. you didn't have this happening in the middle of two of the biggest wars in recent history. it's a recklessness, an irresponsibility, a lack of leadership, the likes of which none of us have ever seen. >> in our lifetime. >> from the house or the senate, really in our lifetime. it seems to me, john that lemire, that it's one thing when you have eight people deciding they're going to go their own way, but you had half the conference deciding that they weren't going to go with the will of the majority of the conference, as has always happened. this has spread from 8 people to 90, 95 people. it seems to me, i'm wondering if

there's reporting, are they thinking about someone like patrick mchenry, just as a temporary speaker, where they say, "okay, you hold the gavel. you run this place until we can get our act together." there is a hot war in the middle east. there is a hot war in the center of europe. in both cases, our allies are in crisis and are going to need our help. >> a phrase we use a lot in this modern era of politics, the trump era if you will, is, we've never seen this before. but we've never seen this before. you come out of the closed door meeting with your nominee, and that person will be speaker. steve scalise, though, didn't even come close, and that's just it. he bailed last night because he wasn't just a few votes shy. he was dozens of votes shy. now, where do we go from here? there are some who support jim jordan, the runner-up to scalise, saying he can make another chance now, though people we talked to on the hill suggest his chances are just as slim as scalise's were.

there is a thought of a dark horse, mainstream moderate candidate who can jump in. not clear who that would be. republicans saying we have to make a deal with the democrats now. maybe we can get their support. democrats saying, well, we might be into that, but we'll need real concessions and promises to make that happen. then there is the mchenry point, where there is momentum there. the idea of trying to create some mmechanism, mike allen, where he could step in in a temporary way. this is happening at a destabilizing moment, the war in israel, what's happening in ukraine, government shutdown deadline. that's on the horizon, only a month away. again, it's not clear whether they'll be able to pull that off. what are you hearing? is there any end in sight to this crisis? >> the axios hill team has new reporting this morning. the bipartisan group of ten house members are talking about how they could do it, how they could find a speaker. behind the scenes, i'm told there have been talks about some kind of power sharing.

could there be, democrats suggest, a couple speakers that will be acceptable to them, and, in turn, they get some say about what goes on the floor? there could be subtle procedural changs they'd go for. i've lived through centrist moments, but this is an emergency. >> mychael schnell, you've been reporting on every twist and turn in thes ago, i'm sure you're on the phone. it's unclear anyone can get 217. steve scalise stepped aside. people say, it's jim jordan, who lost in the preliminary round of voting to scalise. anybody in the caucus who can get to 217? >> that is the key question here. i think you bring up two really key points i want to touch on. a, republicans are likely going to put up a new candidate, jim jordan, as you mentioned, who actually secured fewer votes

than steve scalise in the internal election. the final tally was 113-99. republicans are going to try to move ahead with jim jordan, who already has less support within the conference. not a good place to start at. when you get into, you know, is there anybody who can secure enough support to wield the gavel, look, jim jordan is likely going to have the same problem steve scalise had. the fact the house gop majority is so slim, you need near unanimous support to within the speakership on the house floor. there are already republicans coming out against jordan, wagner and austin scott. already, it is an uphill climb for him. >> i was hearing sound bites from the back benchers, extremists, about why steve scalise shouldn't have the job or whatever. they were saying things that were so stupid and cruel and just beyond even bringing up at this table. but don't these people see the fire that's burning around the

world, that they should think above themselves perhaps and operate? what's going on? >> it's nice seeing an optimist this early. >> i'm not optimistic. i'm just trying to figure it out. >> it's not even the case of the tyranny of the minority. it's the tyranny of ten. >> yeah. >> yet, in the middle of that, you get a ray of common sense from even what used to be the republican party. i was listening to chairman mike mcfaul yesterday. chair of the house foreign relations committee. he was as upset about what is happening as we are. they lack the basic ability to govern, and they don't care about it. when you go to vote for your member of congress, no matter what party you're in, you want them to do one thing, do their job. their job is doing something for con constituents, they've lost the ability.

>> exactly. joe? >> you are so right, and i'm so glad you brought up chairman mccaul. he's right on this point and has been right on ukraine. >> absolutely. >> he's been pushing the biden administration to move further and move faster with the deployment of weapons. we know, i know, because, you know, i was on the hill a few weeks ago. i know there are republicans who want to get this moving. they are enraged. first of all, that eight people held things up. i think though, now, listen, i would work a deal. i would say to the republicans, either get your act together or we're going to work a deal with the democrats. you're going to get run over. you know, that's what happened when i was in congress. you stand in the way of what's best for your party and what is best for your country, people build coalitions and they run

over you. we hear, oh, it's a small minority. mike allen, i'll go to you on this one, then i want to go to richard on another question. mike allen, everybody is talking about, "oh, it's such a small republican majority. it is such a small -- oh, who could ever?" i'll tell you who could, nancy pelosi! she had a small majority. we always said on this -- and people say, "well, will this bill pass?" i'd always say, if it goes to the house floor, it will pass. because nancy pelosi knows how to run her caucus. she knows how to pass bills. i'm just struck, mike allen, that we talked about chairman mccaul. he's a very capable leader. i know the chairwoman of the appropriations committee, i worked with her, very capable. there are very capable republicans. i just wonder at what point do they say, you guys, work with us or we're going to run you over and find some democrats that

will help us govern this house. >> joe, that's the perfect contrast. do you govern from fear, or do you govern from strength? that's the fatal flaw in the deal that kevin mccarthy took to get the job, that he was never going to be able to lead by strength. he was in fear of the tyranny of the one in the case of the chance of losing the gavel. that's why republicans are weak. there's not somebody who can say, this is what we're going to do. this is what we have to do. >> joe? >> yeah. either go along with the party, stop undermining the party, or we're going to run you over politically. it's that simple. it's how it works when you have people who know how to run things. let's hope for the sake of the country, let's hope for israel, let's hope for ukraine, let's hope for the american people that the republicans will find that person. you know, richard haass, you wrote a book, your last book called "bill of obligations."

you also have written articles talking about the greatest risk to america is america's political system itself. you know, i wrote an "atlantic" column talking about how powerful this country is militarily, how powerful we are economically, how all of our leading indicators are exceptionally well. i wrote it late summer. yet, the one fatal flaw continues to be our dysfunctional government. here we go again. i think one of the most dangerous times in recent history. >> 100%. that's what makes it so dangerous, joe. i mean, if you go around the world, you mentioned the war in ukraine. you mentioned the rise of china, the threats to taiwan, north korea has grown its missile force and its nuclear weapons, and we've been talking about iran. still have terrorism in the middle east. you have global challenges. you know, we just got out of a pandemic. you have climate change. that's quite an inbox.

the fact we have to contend with that inbox at a time the u.s. government is dysfunctional means we don't have the resources, we don't have the consistency. if you were a friend of the united states and you saw what is going on here, that would have to, to some extent, unnerve you. where is the consistency? where is the reliability? where is the predictability? >> right. >> that's essential for a great power. it undermines democracy. who is going to want to emulate us right now? it's this combination of what's going on out there and what's going on here, and the fact it doesn't sober people you, what you were getting at, what people around this table are getting at. the idea these people can continue with this circus given the fact they ought to be responsible in this moment and step up to this challenge, and rather than stepping up to it, they're stepping back from it. >> willie. >> mychael schnell, you're hearing republicans talking about what joe proposed. congressman rogers of alabama said, hakeem jeffries, minority leader, we need your help. we can't do this alone. we're not getting to 217 with

anybody. let's make a deal. congressman rogers calling that small group of republicans that ousted kevin mccarthy traitors, using that word over and over again, and said they'd rather be in the minority so they can just vote no on everything and raise money and be on cable news channels. is there any chance of a deal here between democrats and this group of republicans who actually want to have a speaker of the house? >> willie, i think the prospect of that is pretty low right now, just because republicans see working with democrats, even more moderate, pragmatic ones, they see teaming up with democrats for the speakership as something of giving up and throwing in the towel. republicans worked hard to win the majority, albeit, by a very small one, and they're saying under no circumstances do they really want to, you know, team up with a minority. they say we need to get our act together. look, we're a week and a half into in situation where there is no speaker and no real viable candidate on the horizon, so it is possible we could move into some sort of coalition

government at some point, that some of these republicans can say, okay, the time has come. i didn't speak to congressman don bacon yesterday, a moderate republican from the nebraska, said the time is coming where we will need a bipartisan solution. but i don't know we're there yet, and i don't know there will be enough of those republicans willing to. i will note that hakeem jeffries has consistently said, as recently as yesterday, that democrats are ready and willing and able to team up with some of those more moderate and pragmatic republicans to come to some sort of, you know, a compromise here to reopen legislative business. that's likely going to take some concessions from the republican side, whether it be an even playing field on the rules committee, promises to bring up different pieces of legislation. there's going to be a hefty negotiation there. i don't know we're there yet and there are enough republicans to team up on that yet, but is it a possibility in the future? absolutely, on this track we're headed on. >> congress man reporter for "the hill," mychael schnell,

thank you for being on this morning. co-founder of "axios," mike allen, thank you, as well. mike barnicle, you stay right where you are. >> really? >> oh, yeah. coming up -- you are here for the duration. coming up, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has equated hamas to isis. david french will join us with his new piece for "the new york times" on what it would mean to treat both terror groups the same. plus, national security council spokesman john kirby will join us as israel is planning a ground invasion into gaza. also ahead, the former president's comments praising hezbollah as smart. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we need to fill the chair with a speaker. every day that goes by, it gets more dangerous. you know, i was on the phone with our friends with israel. they're going to need a

supplemental in aid to replenish the iron dome. they can't do that if we don't have a speaker in the chair. i see threats out there, but one of the biggest threats i see is in that room. it is dangerous, what we are doing, and i wanted them to know that, you know? we're playing with fire. it's not just designed to look good... it's built to command attention.

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th american league series opens in houon sunday night with the astros hosting the texas rangers. mike barnicle, the teams with the five best records in baseball in the regular season are all out. here we are again. the astros have another chance to go to the world series, and the philadelphia phillies and that stadium absolutely rocking again last night, back in the nlcs. >> 11 home runs in a four-game series. nick castellanos twice last night. the third run they got was a home run off the bat of trey turner. they are hitting the you know what out of the ball in the ballpark, and the ball flies out of that park. after being upset at the marginal crowds showing up at tampa bay, it is a very good team, but 18,000, 19,000. but to see the philadelphia fans jam the stadium and be unbelievably vocal from the

first pitch to the last, that was heartbeat. i love that. >> that was postseason baseball. it was so exciting. for everybody who follows a team that's not in the american league east and hear us talking about the american league east every day, don't think it has gone unnoticed by all of us here that the a.l. east, the three teams from the a.l. east, 0-7 in the playoffs this year. swept, jonathan lemire. guess what? we were in last place in that division. >> in fact, the bos tennessee -- boston red sox were the only east team who won in october. the rest of the league teams did not. >> great note. >> it pains me to praise the philadelphia sports fan, but that is great. it's a great crowd, maybe the best in baseball right now. as we head into this next round, we can all be united on one thing, to root against the

houston astros. >> exactly. >> whatever it takes. >> go rangers. >> we are all texas rangers this morning. >> yeah. guess what, guys, did you know it is mike barnicle's birthday? >> ah. >> here we go. >> happy birthday. >> i said it was your special day. >> yes. >> mike got really mad at me when i tried to wish him a happy birthday this morning. >> i appreciate that, mika, but let me tell you something. at this stage of my life, if i wake up every day, it's a special day. every day is a special day if i wake up. >> it is a very special day today, because here is a tiny snippet of what we are treated to from mike every morning, right here on "morning joe." >> we have msnbc's mike barnicle with us. veteran columnist. mike barnicle is with us. >> oh! >> give me the morning meat. >> this ballpark is so many places. it fills the minds with thoughts

of when you were young or thoughts of yesterday or hopes for tomorrow. >> you come here, and the memories just resonate. they just fall off you like sweat on a hot day. catastrophe of '86. >> i love you, mike barnicle! >> your average fan. >> morning. i'm mike barnicle in for willie geist, and this is "way too elderly." here it goes. president obama -- oh, right here. here he is. i walked right past the president. ♪♪ >> if you look at your life as a 15-round title bout, you've been knocked down several times, gone to one knee. you always get back up. at this stage of this election process, why are you still the guy, the best guy to be in the ring with donald trump? >> this is a crime syndicate that has been operating in full view of the american public, which says a lot about us, that

it takes these hearings to awaken and alert some people to the misbehavior, to the criminal behavior of one administration, the trump administration. >> this country has suffered great damage. none more so than the injection into the political bloodstream that the election of 2020 was fixed, was rigged. what would you do if you were elected about aleppo? >> about? >> aleppo. >> what is aleppo? >> you're kidding. >> no. >> all facing west toward the beach where they landed, the channel they crossed, and the land that they left to come and help rid the world of the terror that was hitler's third richt. >> it is unfortunate every

american cannot get the opportunity to stand on that hallowed ground. >> barnicle will leave his jacket on the chair, and say, i'll come right back, and he never comes back. that's the irish good-bye. >> legendary. >> he is. >> so handsome. [ applause ] >> willie, it is, i mean, for younger people who know mike over the last 16 years on this show, that we've been so blessed to have him here, many don't even -- younger people don't understand, he is one of the greatest columnists of the 20th century. you talk to people in boston still, and they come up to you and they ask about barnicle wherever i go. >> first question. >> yup. >> they're like, tell me about barnicle. tell me more. i will tell you about mike barnicle very briefly this

morning. willie, i know you feel the same way. people ask how we get up at 3:30, 4:00, and how we do it every day. we do it every day because we do it with people we love. >> yeah. >> people that are members of our family. just like you are a member of our family, willie, and we're a member of your family, mike is not like family to us. mike is family. i've never felt closer to a group of people, along with my family, than i feel to you all. mike, willie, mike is at the center of that. >> yeah. no question about it. and the reason you love mike barnicle is because these five minutes are making him outrageously uncomfortable. >> so mad. >> he'd much rather not talk about himself. >> very angry. >> he's going to leave. >> yeah. >> the jacket on the chair. >> it is true, joe, and i was thinking exactly what you said. you wake up at 4:00 in the

morning, come through, see 30 rock, and it wakes you up because you're lucky to work here and do this show every day. when you see mike barnicle, you go, oh, right, that's why we're doing this. to spend time, not just on the air, but off the air is the best time with mike. we love him so much. he's a role model to me as a dad. >> oh, my god, stop this. >> to all of us. he is. >> it's a big birthday. >> you weren't joking about the jacket on the back of the chair. >> no. >> the 2008 republican convention in st. paul, minnesota. >> that's right. >> doing a show, three hours. we take a break, i look around and say, "where's barnicle?" the blue jacket is on the back of the chair. i text him, where are you? i'm in the hotel room having breakfast. i said, what? he said, willie, in your life, what you want to do, buy cheap blue blazers. you can just leave them wherever you go, and you can leave any party you don't want to be at, any situation. >> smart. >> walk away from it. >> costco? >> the best advice he's ever given. >> happy birthday, mike.

>> did you see that coming? did we surprise you? >> i did not see it coming, and i am enormously grateful for the time i've been allowed to spend here, 16 years. >> can you believe it? >> with all of you. now, mika, in the immortal words of roberto duran, no mas. >> all right, mike. we love you. we're going to get back to today's top story. we'll have another live report from on the ground in israel after a quick break.

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top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." it is friday, october 13th. jonathan lemire, mike barnicle and richard haass are still with us. joining the conversation, we have "new york times" opinion columnist david french. and former nbc news tel-aviv bureau chief, martin fletcher

joining us this morning. willie? all right. we begin this hour, mika, with the latest out of the war between israel and hamas. earlier today, israel's military called on civilians in gaza to evacuate the northern part of the country and to head to the southern part of the territory. for more, let's go live to nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez. he's in the southern city of ashdod. tell us more about the order from the israeli military, the warning to evacuate the entire northern half of gaza into the southern half in a 24-hour period. >> reporter: willie, this is an evacuation order unprecedented in scope and scale, and it appears to point to an unprecedented military operation being planned. there are more than a million civilians who live in the northern half of gaza, and

israel is telling them, the entire area is full of hamas military targets. it is going to be targeted. people, for their own safety, need to leave the area. but the united nations this morning is pleading with israel to back down on this evacuation order, saying there is simply no way to move a million people without catastrophic humanitarian consequences. there is no way to house them. there is no way to feed them. as you know, willie, gaza is sealed in. both the egyptian and the israeli borders are closed. there is nowhere for these people to run. israel's military says it has no choice, it has to go into gaza. it has to dismantle the hamas war machine, and it has to make sure that what happened on saturday never happens again. now, senior members of president biden's cabinet are fanned out across the region. secretary of state lloyd austin is here in israel, just meeting with prime minister benjamin

netanyahu. as you know, willie, the secretary of defense was a general before he was in the cabinet. he was in charge of the war in isis and northern iraq. he knows a thing or two about isis. what he has seen out of southern israel, the atrocities committed by hamas are worse than anything that isis has done. secretary of state antony blinken, who was here in israel yesterday, is now over the border in jordan. he is meeting with the king of jordan, a close u.s. ally, who is warning the united states today that if there is large-scale displacement of palestinians in gaza, there is the potential for a regional crisis, a crisis that spreads far beyond the borders of the holy land. willie, on top of all of this, all eyes waiting for news of the hostages inside of gaza. hamas today says 13 of those hostages have been killed by israeli air strikes inside the

gaza strip. we should be really clear, the israeli military is not commenting on that claim by hamas. nbc news has not verified it, but there is deep, deep concern among the families of hostages that this intense bombing campaign, followed by what is potentially going to be a ground invasion of gaza on a scale unlike anything we've ever seen before, could lead to the deaths of the hostages, either if they are executed at the hands of their hamas captors or if they are killed accidentally by advancing israeli forces. willie? >> of course, that was precisely the strategy from hamas, taking 150 hostages so they could use them as human shields should israel go in. you mentioned threat of a wider war coming from jordan. let's be specific about what they mean by that and what many people fear could happen with the israeli assault over the next 24 hours, potentially through the weekend, going in on

the ground. what is the threat, that hezbollah might attack from the north, that other nations might get involved? >> reporter: yeah, so there's a number of different possibilities here, willie. we are hearing from the israeli military that they have evacuated one civilian community in northern israel right now on the gaza border because of concerns about possible infiltration by militants, terrorists from lebanon. we don't have details on that. there have been a number of false alarms over the last couple days, but there has also been rocket fire from hezbollah, from smaller palestinian armed groups inside of lebanon. at this precise moment, there is no indication that hezbollah, which is a far, far more powerful organization than hamas, is planning to engage in a full-scale war with israel, but it is one of the concerns. specifically, what the king of jordan is talking about is, one, a flow of refugees that could be absolutely destabilizing, both in neighboring egypt but also in

the west bank which borders jordan. jordan knows a thing or two about flows of refugees, having taken many, many millions of syrians over the course of the war. the king of jordan's other point is these images coming from gaza are potentially so inflammatory, they may arouse passions across the region, spark violence, and we could end up in a cycle no one can control. willie. >> raf, of course the reason this region from israel is and will be so ferocious is because of the absolutely horrifying scenes we've all seen now, the acts of savagery by hamas in some of the kibbutzes. you were one of the handful of international correspondents to witness with your own eyes. can you share with our viewers what you saw, what you heard, what you witnessed there in israel? >> reporter: yeah, willie. our team has had the grim distinction of going to two of these kibbutz that were overrun

by hamas terrorists in the early mornings of the saturday morning, as well as the sight of the music festival, where 260 people, most of them young, were slaughtered in a field. this was a place of music. it was a place of dancing. it was a place of joy. when we walked that festival site yesterday, there was just a deathly, deathly silence. you could see all the signs of what had been a normal weekend cut just brutally short. there were bloody shoes on the ground that had fallen off the feet of people who were fleeing for their lives. there were ransacked suitcases where hamas paused to see what was in the packs. we went to two kibbutz. the horror is unbelievably concentrated. these are not big places.

the homes are not physically large. you step through what are often blown out doorways and, inside, the walls are covered in blood. they're riddled with bullets. in a community of 700 people, it felt like israeli forces were finding new bodies of civilians almost every couple of minutes. they told us a number of children were either shot or burned to death inside of these kibbutz. ironically, it is a beautiful place there. we were looking from front of what was the kindergarten, the local school in this kibbutz. it looks nice, except for the body of a hamas fighter, which is decomposing in the hot sun in front of the doorway. so these are communities that are never going to be the same again. some have lost a very, very significant proportion of their

residence. these are places that are scarred forever. this is a country that is scarred forever. willie. >> as you say, a grim assignment indeed, but such a critically important one. we so appreciate your reporting. nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez inside of israel for us today. again, raf, thanks so much. joe, these descriptions, there have been some people who downplayed, perhaps, what happened, but our reporters have seen with their own eyes. we just said babies were burned. did you ever think you'd hear that in your life? >> no. >> it explains why the israeli people and the world are outraged by this and why the response is going to be so overwhelming from israel. >> it is. if that had happened in the united states bordering any country, we would have been in the next day. there is just absolutely no doubt that israel is left with

no choice but to degrade hamas. it's going to be an extraordinarily difficult, difficult challenge. but, you're right, the imagery that shows the absolute savagery. babies burned alive. babies, infants, riddled with bullet holes in their chest. elderly women burned to death. women raped, killed, paraded around like dead animals. no, no. this would not stand for a day in the united states of america. this would not stand for a day in just about every other country in the globe. so -- >> yeah. >> so, i've just got to say, people sipping their latte in

the comfort of their starbucks somewhere, making moral statements about israel and israel's right to exist, you know, they need to look at those images. they need to stop lying to themselves and stop lying about hamas. because the terror that we saw from isis, we would see over weeks at a time. all of this happened in a matter of hours, and it is unspeakable evils, just unspeakable evils. martin fletcher, i've got to say, i republican when i visited the holocaust. i thought the holocaust would give me -- when i visited auschwitz, i thought auschwitz would give me a better

understanding of what happened. of how humanity could lead to the extermination of 6 million jews. i must say, i walked away from auschwitz even more baffled. i wasn't looking at the victims in the pictures. i was looking at the german soldiers standing there, asking how they could do that to another human being. i say that just to say, you were so much closer to this story than any of us. you have spent so much time there. i would guess, of all the time you spent there, it probably gives you no more insight into the events of saturday and what's happening now because there really isn't a parallel, is there, martin? >> um, there is a parallel in a way. i mean, part of my family were killed in auschwitz, as a matter of fact. this is extremely personal, and i think it is partly -- it

accounts for the extraordinary rising of anger and sense of futility and sense of vulnerable in israel today. you know, you mentioned auschwitz. this is the -- it's the key phrase in israel, in the memory of israelis. when these hamas murderers went into israel, they killed, what, around 1,000 israelis in horrific ways in one day. when they went into israel to kill israelis, they went looking for israelis to kill. they were looking for jews to kill. i think that is absolutely significant. i've been in gaza at least 50 to 70 times over the years, over the decades, many times because there was some kind of outbreak of fighting or the crowds were rushing towards the border. in every single instance, when they called out, "the israelis are coming," they never used the

word israelis, not once. they used army or the words -- the jews are coming. they're killing the jews, and that's something to understand. hamas today are calling for days of rage and anger across the world in support of hamas. they're talking about the jews. they're talking about, go find the jews. this is not only about israel. you know, it goes even deeper than that. it hits the israelis and jews deep in their psyche. vulnerability going back, you know, generations, thousands of years. this is an extension. >> thousands of years. >> yeah. >> thousands of years. of course, martin, what i was saying is, there was no parallel, i meant, in all the years of your reporting, there was no parallel. not even '73. you would have to go back to the holocaust. i want to underline something else, and i'll tweet it out right now. there is an "atlantic" article by bruce hoffman.

"understanding hamas' genealogy." people on campuses wringing their hands about hamas and conflating hamas with the plight of the suffering palestinian people, there's a complete ignorance about hamas' ideology. this is not -- i'm not saying this with any bias toward israel, even though i'm bias toward israel on certainly issues right now. but hamas' ideology, and i just tweeted it out, the "atlantic" article. i would hope those people who are morally equivocating right now will read it. their founding documents say that they are going to kill

jews. that's their goal. if there is a jew behind a tree, then may the rocks and the trees rise up and kill the jews. they are going to drive israel into the sea, and they will kill anybody that tries to make peace. that is hamas. that is hamas' founding documents. that is what their entire ideology is based upon. and this, this is who many people are celebrating in the west on college campuses and back benches of parliaments. >> absolutely. 100% right, joe. you know, the people who we hear all the time saying, we have to see the context, we have to understand the background, yeah, do. go check it out. >> please. >> i also read the document. i read the charter actually yesterday. i read the whole thing through. you quoted the most critical parts of it. it's all about not making peace with israel.

so when people call about the context and say, well, why can't they make peace and israel won't compromise, how can you compromise with somebody whose goal, whose charter is to destroy your state? hamas doesn't want peace with israel. other palestinians do. don't get me wrong. i mean, the hamas is only part of the palestinian people. the west bank, the government, they're continually having security cooperation with the israeli government. their security cooperation is important to the safety of the israeli people, but that's one part of the palestinians. in 2006, this was a war in gaza between hamas and those other palestinians, in which it was a bitter war. hamas won, kicked people out from gaza to the west bank. now, the palestinian government is in the west bank and the separate government in gaza which is hamas. the last elections in hamas were in 2006. nobody really understands how

many people in gaza actually support the hamas government. hamas is a brutal government in gaza at home, toward their own people. let me just go back to one thing, if i may, joe, earlier, when you were talking about the unprecedented nature of this. you know, the brutality. i was in israel for about -- for both suicide bombing campaigns. there were 100 suicide bombs over a period of 18 years in israel. 838 israelis were killed in those bombs. i was at the scene of probably 80 out of 100 of the suicide bombings. it was horrific. nothing relates to what happened this week in gaza. it was extraordinary murder and suicide bombing which terrified israel, which was the goal, over 18 years. 838 israelis killed. every time i went, it was a horrific scene. what happened? in one day, hamas killed more israelis than all of those

suicide bombs put together. >> right. >> that's what it means to israel. >> mika, just following up on what martin said regarding hamas, they're brutal dictators. haven't held an election since 2007. they're tyrants. when people say, why won't the israelis make peace with hamas, because if somebody in gaza wants to make peace, they literally will kill them. they literally will kill them because making peace, co-existing, working together with any jew is considered a death sentence if you're in gaza because of hamas' founding documents. anybody that wants peace wants hamas degraded and out of power in gaza. >> david french is writing about exactly this challenge in a piece for "the new york times." david, it's entitled, of course,

"what it would mean to treat hamas like isis." in it, david, you discuss some of the difficulties israel faces in trying to dismantle the terror group. one being what you call the coep of distinction. you write in part this, "distinction requires soldiers to separate themselvesrom civilians by wearing uniforms, for example, or by fighting from marked military vehicles. it prohibits militaries from fighting from places like hospitals, schools, and mosques. hamas disregards the principle of distinction. its fighters take aim from civilian buildings while wearing civilian clothes and using civilian vehicles. this presents an attacking military with serious targeting problems. is -- it is easy to identify an armored personnel carrier as military vehicle. but what if there are four

toyotas in the car, and only one is hamas fighters? when hamas abandons the principle of distinction, then hamas is responsible f t civilian damage that results. if hamas fights from a hospital or stores munitions in a hospital, damage tohat hospital is hamas' responsibility." that repeats itself many times over, david. you talk about, unlike russia versus ukraine, israel wants to follow the rules of war but hamas doesn't. >> right. hamas is -- their tactics is not to follow the rules of war. the reality of hamas is they are -- they use civilians as a military asset. in other words, the presence of civilians they use as a protective means, so that when israeli troops or when israeli armored vehicles go into a street, often the israelis will have to take and receive the first shot to know where hamas

is. i compared this to the challenge that iraqi and american forces faced in 2016. it took 100,000 troops nine months to clear the city of mosul. sadly, hundreds of civilians died because isis treated civilians the same way hamas treats the civilians, and those deaths were isis' responsibility, just like, right now, the risk to civilians is hamas' responsibility. hamas is hiding amongst civilians. >> david, let's get your thoughts on what these next 24 to 48 hours might look like. the israeli government has ordered the northern half of gaza, which includes gaza city, everyone there to evacuate, more than a million people. the u.n. asked them to reverse the order, saying it is not possible, and it'd lead to a

massive humanitarian crisis. what are your fears there, and what would your advice be to the biden administration, as to how they message very much israel's right to respond but also worried about what could happen next? >> yeah, what's happening here is very clear. israel is trying to deny hamas the use of civilians as human shields. so if you look back at america's war against isis, for example, many times, civilian populations fled. for example, fled from their cities. when mosul happened, the civilians largely weren't permitted to flee by isis. getting civilians to flee the scene of fighting is an attempt at a humanitarian gesture here. it is an attempt at a humanitarian move, as difficult and horrible as that is. because what is also difficult and horrible is fighting block by block in a city where civilians are kept there

essentially as prisoners, for example, by isis in mosul or by hamas in gaza. there is no good situation when hamas embeds itself into a population. the order is trying to get civilians out of the zone of fighting, as has happened in other middle east cities at other times, but it is so incredibly difficult. again, this is because of what hamas has done. it is because hamas embeds itself in the civilian population and essentially says, "come and get us." that's what isis did in mosul, and the u.s. military, with the iraqi allies, did get isis and fought them block by block, street by street, until isis was defeated. >> let's bring into the conversation accord r coordinator for strategic conversations at the white house, admiral john kirby. let's pick up the conversation with the call from the israeli military for gaza to evacuate

the northern half of the country, effectively, a million people into the south in 24 hours. do you support that call? do you believe that'spractical? >> we believe what the israeli forces are trying to do here, and they're making the case they don't want to cause additional civilian casualties. they're trying to call hamas out for the fact they'reorin -- in ordered people to stay in their homes, basically, again, calling them to be willing human shields. we understand what the israeli defense forces are trying to do. we do. they have publicly said they're, again, trying to minimumcasualt. we also want to see that there are opportunities, a safe passage out of gaza writ large, that people have the ability to leave gaza. that's not the case right now. we're continuing to work with the israelis and the egyptians on that, as well. >> do you believe, admiral, that it is possible to get a million people south in the next 24 hours? >> look, that's going to be a

tall order, given how densely populated it is, given there are bombs falling and strikes happening. that's a lot of people to move in a short period of time. the idf recognizes the challenge there. we don't want to be in the armchair quarterbacks about everything they're doing at a tactical level. again, we understand what they're trying to do and why they're trying to do this, to try to isolate the civilian population from hamas, which is their real target. >> admiral, thank you so much for being with us. i want to talk about what the biden administration is doing right now across the region, across europe. i know that secretary austin was working with nato allies over the past few days, talking with them, encouraging them to be fully supportive of israel. i know he's somebody who has fought in that region. he is there now. secretary blinken, of course, doing a masterful job, as well,

in speaking out for freedom. long-term peace and stability in the region. what should we expect from the biden administration in the coming days and weeks as far as support for the israeli people and the israeli military? >> the first thing you can expect us to be right on is about additional military assistance for the israeli defense forces. in fact, as you noted, secretary austin is in israel today. he's expected to announce yet more military assistance, more weapons, more capabilities coming to israel. i would expect that you're going to see, joe, in coming days and weeks, you know, sort of a drum beat of that additional support we know they're going to need. they're a capable military, but they certainly do need additional munitions and weapon. we're going to do that. the other thing you're going to expect from us, joe, is to continue to work very hard on the hostage recovery issue. i don't have any options to speak to today, and, obviously,

we have to be careful what we say publicly, but i can tell you, hour by hour here at the national security council at the white house, we're focused on this problem set and trying to get as much information as we can about who is hostage, where they are. >> right. >> number of groups they're in and maybe if they're being moved around. we'll keep working that. >> can i ask you a follow-up on that? we have a complicated relationship with qatar. i know, obviously, they have a working relationship with a lot of terrorist groups across the middle east. we also have a military base there. they're quite helpful to the united states, as well. >> they are. >> are they being helpful right now in the process of hostage negotiations and possibly recovering hostages? >> well, let me put it this way. we want to make sure we're not telegraphing everything we're doing, we don't want to cut any

opportunity to get the hostages back, but qatar has an open channel of communication with hamas. you know, we all recognize that. qatar is a good partner to the united states military in the region. i think i'm going to leave it at that. >> retired rear admiral john kirby, we'll be talking to you again soon. we appreciate your joining us this morning. >> yes, ma'am. >> thanks. good to have you. richard and martin, in terms of the hope for these hostages, it just seems like an impossible situation. with these reports especially now that some may have already perished. >> i don't think it is impossible. martin will know more the details than i will. but israel has a long history of being willing to exchange in order to get its people back. >> they want 1,000 prisoners for one. >> it's one-sided. i actually think before this

is -- you have more experience than i do at this, i'm curious -- but i think there will be exchanges. >> really? >> i think there is a decent chance. look, some of these people are going to lose their lives, i understand that. it's just going to add to the tragedy. but one of the reasons that hamas took so many hostages, again, was to set up some exchange. >> have power. >> again, i think israel will be willing to, despite how awful it's been and how evil hamas has been. i still think there would be a willingness to do that in order to save human life. >> martin? >> first, when hamas today says that 13 hostages are being killed, it may be true, it may not be true. could be psychological warfare, we don't know. >> yeah. >> yeah, israel is holding 5,000 palestinian security prisoners in its jails. plenty more palestinians. more security reasons, 5,000 people, of whom only 183 come from gaza. if there is a release, by the way, that means only 183 from gaza. that means the rest will go home to the west bank. you have, like, 4,800 odd

released prisoners going to the west bank, and many of those will revert to their old ways. this is a real threat to israel if it goes through. i agree with richard. exactly, hamas took those hostages in order to, as they said openly, to free all their prisoners. you know, a deal will be in the works at some point for sure. >> mike? >> martin, in your life and in your career, you've seen things that cannot remain unseen in your mind. you live with them once you see horrific events. my question to you has to do with the palestinian people. everybody talks about the palestinian people, as we must help the palestinian people. why do the governments of egypt, saudi arabia, bahrain, united arab emirates, seem to do very little for the palestinian people? >> palestinians ask the same

question. one of the answers is, in essence, i'm not sure how to phrase it correctly, in that part of the world, they don't particularly like the palestinian people. you know, during the war, when palestinians were demonstrating in the war in kuwait, in iraq, the palestinians essentially have more trouble with them. >> hold that thought, martin. we have secretary of state lloyd austin in tel-aviv speaking alongside his counterpart there, expected to announce some more support for israel in the form of munitions. let's listen in. >> america's support for israel is ironclad. i extend my deepest condolences to the israeli people for those killed or wounded in this terrible slaughter by hamas. i'm also here in solidarity with all the families still living

the waking nightmare of not knowing the fate of their loved ones. we will continue to coordinate closely with israel, to help secure the release of the innocent men, women, and children in the clutches of hamas. including american citizens. now, israel is a small country, a place where everybody knows everybody. in times of trial, the intimacy of your society deepens the intimacy of your grief. but that's not a weakness. it is a profound strength. in times of testing, israelis know what to do. over this awful week, we've seen israeli hotels and homes taken

-- take in those who had to flee. we've seen long lineups to donate blood. we've seen what's app explode with messages as people race to support neighbors in anguish. perhaps because i'm a retired general, i was especially moved by the story of a retired general named noam teebone. his son called him on saturday from his home near gaza to say that hamas terrorists had stormed their kibbutz and were closing in. the retired general jumped in their car in tel-aviv and raced to the fighting zone. linked up with other fighters and rescued his son, his daughter-in-law, and his granddaughters. when the general arrived at their house, one of his granddaughters just said, "grandpa is here." these are rays of hope in a

terrible week. at times like these, sometimes the best thing that a friend can do is just to show up. and to get to work. now, this is no time for neutrality or for false equivalence or for excuses for the inexcusable. there is never any justification for terrorism. that's especially true after this rampage by hamas. anyone who wants lasting peace and security for this region must condemn and isolate hamas. hamas does not speak for the palestinian people or their legitimate hopes for dignity, security, and statehood and peace alongside israel.

as a former commander of central command, the deliberate cruelty of hamas vividly reminds me of isis. blood thirsty, fanatical, and hateful. like isis, hamas has nothing to offer but bigotry and death. the world has just witnessed a great evil. the deadliest attacks on israel and the bloodiest day since the holocaust. make no mistake, the united states will make sure israel has what it needs to defend itself, and israel has a right to protect its people.

in our many phone calls this week, president biden has told prime minister netanyahu that the united states would also respond swiftly and decisively to such a massive terrorist assault. and the president also underscored that democracies like ours are stronger and more secure when we uphold the laws of war. tyrants like hamas deliberately targets civilians, but democracies don't. this is a time for resolve and not revenge. for purpose and not panic. and for security and not surrender. at president biden's direction, we have moved urgently to respond to this crisis and to send a strong message of

deterrence. the uss gerald r. ford carrier strike group is now in the region, led by the largest aircraft carrier in the world. we've augmented u.s. fighter aircraft squadrons in the middle east, and the u.s. department of defense stands fully ready to deploy additional assets if necessary. as president biden has said, for any country, for any group, or anyone thinking about trying to take advantage of this atrocity, to try to widen the conflict or to spill more blood, we have just one word. don't. the world is watching. so are we. we aren't going anywhere. we will remain in close contact with our valued part nerpaers a

the region, and support is flowing into israel. that includes munitions and air defense capabilities and other equipment and resources. it also includes more intercepters for iron dome to save israeli lives. we will continue to ensure that israel has what it needs to keep itself secure. now, hamas attacked at a time of global challenge. but the united states is the most powerful country in the world. we remain fully able to project power and uphold our commitments and direct resources to multiple theaters. so we will stand with israel even as we stand with ukraine. the united states can walk and chew gum at the same time.

and u.s. security assistance to israel will flow in at the speed of war. as this harrowing week draws to a close, and as shabbat draws near, we stand together. we stand strong. the united states has israel's back, and that is not negotiable. it never will be. after this terrible week, i wish you and all the people of israel shabbat shalom. thank you. >> united states secretary of defense lloyd austin speaking alongside his counterpart, saying it is not a time for neutrality or false equivalence. the world has witnessed a great evil. he characterized hamas in very

clear, sharp terminology, also saying that hamas does not speak for the palestinian people. this is the time for resolve and not revenge, and that the united states will stand with israel as it stands with ukraine. this country can walk and chew gum at the same time. he announced a lot of changes and support for israel in terms of munitions and military. martin fletcher, i'd like to hear what you have to say about what the secretary of defense just said, and, also, you were in the middle of making an important point, and we'd like to hear that, as well. >> well, i think for israelis, seeing the american secretary of defense framed by two israeli flags, giving such a strong statement of support for israel in its struggle, and president biden's extraordinary -- >> remarkable. >> yeah, so emotionally involved

and so totally on the side of what israelis would say is justice and their cause and then their defense, more to the point. i think israelis watching this must be saying, "thank god for america. big brother is standing with us." at this time for america, it is so important. israel has always said, you know, we need money. we need aid. we don't want american boots on the ground in israel. we'll do our own fighting. don't risk your boys. give us the resources. we'll do it ourselves. this is one of those moments. >> the palestinian question that you were, why are the palestinians not widely admired in that region? >> because, well, wherever they've gone, they brought trouble. they went into -- as refugees into lebanon, formed their own head of state within a state in the south of lebanon, which israel went into in 1982 and took apart, but they were part of the lebanese civil war. they broht a lot of

instability into lebanon with them. in jordan in 1970, there was the war the palestinians fought with the jordanian government and army. they have brought trouble with them. i think there is great sympathy in the arab world for their plight. don't get me wrong. >> right. >> but they have -- i don't like to say it this way, by they're not loved in the arab world. that is the main reason they haven't been supported. also, with states that do want to move ahead and reach some kind of agreement with israel can't do it because of the palestinians, without, you know, that settled. they're baically a thorn in the side of everybody, and i hate to say that. it's not their fought. -- fault. they're in a terrible situation. >> yeah. willie? >> it is first president biden, then secretary blinken, and now, today, secretary defense, absolutely no daylight between the united states and israel, saying our support is ironclad.

he also said, martin, at a meeting earlier today, the defense secretary did with netanyahu, he said, i led the campaign against isis. what happened in these kibbutzes is worse than anything i saw. it says a lot. you understand this part of the world, martin, so very well. what to you expect to see beginning perhaps this weekend and for the weeks and months, perhaps years to come? how will this play out? >> badly. in the short term. is there something good that can come out of it in the long term? right now, i think all focus has to be on, can israel actually destroy hamas? is this actually possible? my sense would be no. i mean, frankly, you kill everybody and then so what? now what happens next? you've destroyed hamas, if it happens, i don't think it really can happen completely, but then what? now israel is back in gaza. another occupation which they

don't want. they have to set up some kind of government in be gaza to take the place of hamas. this is the -- the potential for trouble in a wider world, for a wider war is enormous. i think israel needs to get through the next few days, and so do the palestinian civilians in gaza. i mean, hell is about to be rained down upon them. >> actually asking a question right now to the israeli defense minister about iran. let's dip back in and see what we can get from this. >> as to the future actions of idf, i will state confidential for good reasons. >> thank you. >> mr. secretary, thank you for this. chairman mike mccaul said we

know egypt warned israel three days prior an event like this could happen. we don't know how we missed it. we don't know how israel missed it. can you tell us what really the u.s. knew before this attack? >> what i can tell you is that if we had known or if we know of a pending attack against an ally, we would clearly inform that ally. but what we're focused on now, soloman, we're focused on making sure israel has what it needs to defend its sovereign territory and to protect its citizens. the minister and i spent a good bit of time talking today about what those requirements are and what we need to do to urgently meet those needs. [ speaking a non-english language ] >> so, again, we're listening to

secretary of defense lloyd austin with his israeli tell counterpart in tel-aviv. they were asked the question about iran, and he gave the answer we caught right there. richard, your thoughts? >> the question is how you can prevent war widening, and that's the danger between what we've been discussing and that. if you have a large-scale military operation in gaza, martin raised, i think, the likelihood that it won't succeed if we with define success as destroying hamas. one of the additional risks of it is it increases the odds of war widening, that hezbollah would come in. what the united states is trying to do is put pressure on iran, which controls hezbollah, so it doesn't come in. that's what a lot of this is about. what you're having in israel more broadly is a conversation. everybody understands israel's right to do things. everyone understands the emotions now. the question is what is smart? what will leave israel better

off than it is? i was at an event the other night with several israelis, and we were talking about this. i was struck, mika, by how many of the israelis were saying, we have to be really careful about a large-scale re-entry into gaza. they understand the emotions behind it. they understand the goal of quote, unquote, rooting out hamas, but they also understand the realities of why that is likely to fail. secretary austin was talking about the american experience in afghanistan. >> right. >> we have to differentiate between when we originally went in and ousted the government. that was successful when we got rid of the taliban. we were much less successful when we tried to remake afghanistan after occupation. that's the israeli challenge. it is one thing to target hamas individually, when you have intelligence. something very different to do a second full-scale occupation of gaza. that ought to make people very, very worried. one can be supportive of israel. at the same time, one can raise

questions about what's the smartest strategy from this point on? >> all right. former nbc news tel-aviv bureau chief, martin fletcher, thank you so much for coming back in and joining us with your analysis this morning. we appreciate it. joining us now live from israel, news editor for the "jerusalem post" and editor in chief of "the jerusalem report," alan eviatar. and senior military correspondent and intelligence analyst for "the jerusalem post." authors after "target tehran." how israel is using cyber warfare, assassination and secret diplomacy to stop a nuclear iran and create a new middle east. it's good to have you both. your book, obviously, so timely right now. curious, first of all, your thoughts given the latest developments and everything you might be seeing on the ground, and how the concept and thesis of your book plays into where we

stand now. i'll start with you, ilan. right. one of the features of our book is the fear of iran has brought these primarily sunni arab states to the point where they're willing to create ties with israel, as we saw happened with the united arab emirates in bahrain, and as we saw was happening with saudi arabia. big question now is what will happen with the issue of normalization of ties between israel and saudi arabia, which at least for the moment is going to be on hold. the question is, how will israel emerge from this that the u.s. is giving israel its back in an unprecedented manner. the saudis will be looking to see how strongly israel emerges from this conflict because they are very scared of hamas, and

isis and groups like that. >> jonah, the question hanging over this entire nightmare is iran's involvement. what are your insights? >> so i spoke with -- i have to call him a senior diplomatic source, let's just say at the highest levels, and right at this moment, they say that iran was not necessarily involved in this operation. however, funding, logistics, the spirit behind it, telling hamas and the other terror group in gaza, islamic jihad, proxies all over the place to attack israel, to make trouble for israel. the training, the sophistication of the operation. even if iran didn't order this operation on this day, there's no question this operation could not have happened without iranian backing, and what's going to happen next, the ground invasion which i heard earlier in the week was going to be about within a week, and we're seeing that now with the warning to evacuate gaza city in the north of gaza. we're going to see a ground invasion soon, and all of that

is not just to get rid of hamas, whatever that means. some of your other interviewees commented, but it's also a message to iran. don't mess with us. don't try to cross the line to a nuclear program. don't send your proxies after us because this is what will happen to you. look at what we're doing to hamas. >> could you say something about the larger israeli conversation now about what to do next? the israeli government is clearly preparing what looks to be a large assault on gaza. could you say something about the debate and to what extent are they receiving support, or to what extent are israelis basically also suggesting a degree of caution given what has happened over the last two decades in gaza? >> i think the overwhelming majority of israelis fully support the government. i think the overwhelming majority of israelis feel that our response to what has

happened to this act of barbarism, this act of genocide needs to be unyielding, resolute, and resounding. i wouldn't say there is really much of a debate at this point. i think everybody in a broad consensus from right to left is that israel must go in and must take apart hamas and eliminate its military capabilities at whatever cost. >> we just obviously just this moment, talking about eliminating the cost and threat to israel, but what do you do about an unnamed -- it's never named. they always say, we have to go after israel. iran has to go after israel. hamas has to go after israel. what they're saying is we have to kill jews. what do you do about that? there's no covert ops in the

world that can deal with that. what do we do about that? >> look, that's correct. you flashed a book on earlier. that's about mossad stopping them, but stopping people from wanting to kill jews isn't just going to go away. iran isn't just going to go away. what we're dealing with now is gaza and hamas. israel is going to go in with air bombing all over northern gaza, but other parts as well. they'll go in with the ground forces with the benefits of air bombing having affected them, and how long will that go? how much of hamas' fighters will israeli soldiers kill? how much of their rockets will be destroyed? some of that will be determined. right now you're seeing complete backing from the united states and even european union, but as unfortunately, you start to see in war, there's going to be civilian casualties on the palestinian side.

hamas is not letting civilians lead. they're using them as human shields. as people on the palestinian side rise, you're going to see the support unfortunately, we've seen it before, fall. there's going to be pressure on israel to stop, and as all of you said, can israel really eliminate hamas? who is going to put in charge afterwards? the palestinian authority who was roused before with lebanon, they haven't been able to stop hezbollah. there's not a clear answer to that from the senior diplomatic source that i spoke to. i don't believe they have a clear answer yet. i think they will figure that out midstream which isn't always the best way to come up with a permanent solution, but they're going to do that first, hope it sends a message to some of israel's other eneenemies, but you're 100% right. there are people who won't necessarily accept a jewish state and israel in the middle east, and israel needs to make as many peace agreements as it can, but it'll never be able to let down its guard and it's very

powerful to the the united states backing it. >> all right. the jerusalem post authors. thank you both very much for joining us this morning. so let's put in perspective everything we've heard so far. you can take it to richard, but hearing from lloyd austin and the secretary of defense from israel, everyone is with israel and military support is on the way, but it's incredibly complicated and hostages' lives stand in the balance. >> yeah, they do. american support on the way, but there's a limit until there is a speaker of the house and a working congress as to what they can do. on the subject of hostages, we have been talking about this impending invasion. the president is talking to some of the families of those believed to be held hostage. they're doing everything they can to get them home, but that's

going to be very hard to get them home. tell us what you think the next 48, 72 hours will look like. >> the united states is going to continue to help, you know, send equipment there, be supportive as you've seen, but behind the scenes, you're going to have increasingly difficult conversations between the biden administration and israelis. we're also going to go over what israel plastered the concern over the hhostages. that conversation you just heard there, can you really eliminate hamas? probably not. what do you put in its place? again, history suggests a degree of caution here, and then i think people are worried about war-widening. you're also going to see the united states talking to qatar putting pressure on iran. this has become an incredibly complicated chess board. they're looking at what the israelis will do in gaza, and they're inhibited by not only israeli, but american hostages and we have a larger set of concerns. the last things we want at a time of focus on ukraine and

russia and europe, we also want to focus on china. the last thing we want is the middle east to again become a major theater of conflict. so we are close to the precipice of this. the stakes here are hard to exaggerate. they are real. all right. coming up, senator cory booker will join the conversation. he was in israel when the hamas attack unfolded. we'll hear his firsthand account on how he made it how the and what congress is doing to aid america's ally. "morning joe" will be right back. ally "morning joe" will be right back i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve

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good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, october 13th. we are following fast-moving developments out of israel. the country's military is telling us more than a million people -- telling more than a million people to leave their homes this morning as it prepares a potential, full-scale ground invasion in the wake of

the terror attacks by hamas. we'll have a live report with the very latest on the ground there. plus, an update on the biden administration's efforts to prevent further escalation in the region with top officials on the ground this morning in israel and jordan. also ahead, the republican-led chaos on capitol hill reached yet another level last night when the party's nominee for speaker just dropped out of the race. we'll talk about how that impacts the country and world events. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, and president ameritus, richard haas is with us as well. nearly a week into the war, the atrocities carried out by hamas are still coming to light. on social media yesterday, the israeli defense forces released photos, showing the burnt and decapitated bodies of babies.

due to their graphic nature, we're not going to show the images here this morning. among the many israelis missing, ten members of a family who descended from a holocaust escapee who himself passed away just last year. speaking in tel aviv yesterday, u.s. secretary of state antony blinken described some of the horrors he had been shown in photos. >> it's hard to find the right words. it's beyond what anyone would ever want to imagine, much less actually see and god forbid experience. a baby, an infant riddled with bullets. soldiers beheaded. young people burned alive in their cars or in their hideaway rooms.

i could go on, but it's simply depravity in the worst imaginable way. >> meanwhile in its ongoing response to the terrorist ambush and ahead of a potential ground invasion of gaza, israel's military has called for the entire population for the northern half of gaza to move to southern gaza with the the next 24 hours. that area home to just over 1 million people. accounts for about half the territory's population. the united nations warning such a move would be impossible without devastating humanitarian consequences. they asked for the order to be rescinded. hamas told palestinian not to comply with israeli demands calling it, quote, psychological warfare.

joining us from the border, richard engel. richard, thank you for being with us again this morning. what more can you tell us about the practicality of what israel has requested, which is that the northern half of gaza moved to the southern half of gaza in the next 24 hours? >> reporter: and it is asking people to do that while they are under attack, while they are sealed off, and while the power, electricity, gas, all supplies have been cut off. so people are -- it is not an organized evacuation in any way. people have just been told, leave by any means possible. you could see behind me right now, that is the northern gaza strip. that is gaza city. that is the most populated part of gaza. as you said, there are just over 2 million people in the gaza strip. it is broken up into roughly two heavily populated areas, the north with gaza city, and then in the south, and what israel has done and said, everyone

should leave the north, evacuate gaza city. evacuate an entire city of 1 million people and get in their cars, get in donkey carts and there are still donkey carts in use in gaza, and move south. move below the valley, and we've spoken this morning with people inside gaza. they are trying to do it. hamas has told them not to leave, not to obey this order, but people are listening, and they are packing whatever they can, taking a little food, taking some supplies if they have any batteries, any gasoline. they're taking that with them, and they are trying to move south. overnight, we heard some of the most intense bombardments so far. we were here all night, and the incoming was intense. one after the other, after another with israeli air strikes, tank fire going in. we heard small arms fire, and even now we are hearing israeli drones above, and this in the offensive is continuing.

we will see today if now that israel has given this order for people to move south, if the attacks do lessen to a degree, that remains unknown. hospital officials inside gaza also tell us they're overwhelmed. there are thousands of dead and injured, and they are running out of supplies. people are being treated on the floor. hospitals are enormously crowded. so now under attack, cut off, people are taking what they can, and trying to get out of that city right now and move to what could be a safer area before what is anticipated to be an israeli onslaught into gaza, and now it seems quite clear that the onslaught will focus on the north, on gaza city. >> so richard, let me ask you about that anticipated onslaught as you said. israel has been responding from the air to this point over the last week or so. what could a ground assault -- a ground invasion by the israeli military look like here? >> reporter: well, one of the

reasons that israel says that it wants people to leave is it is expecting a massive fight. it is expecting that hamas is dug in. so when you expect to fight against an entrenched enemy, you are going to bring a lot of force to bear. so israel has brought in tanks. it has brought in artillery, and when they move the tanks into the tight streets of gaza looking for hamas, concerned about booby traps, trying to destroy them, they will be firing a great deal. so this area could soon become an open fire zone, and i think that's why israel is trying to tell people, leave the area right now. it'll be dangerous for the israelis because hamas is dug in. it will be dangerous for hamas clearly, but it will be very dangerous for any palestinians who stay behind and are caught up in what will soon be perhaps

some of the most urban fighting we've seen in years. >> richard engel, thank you so much, and please do everything you can to be safe. richard haas, we'll ask you that same question. egypt obviously -- no friends of hamas. egypt who of course, struck a peace deal with israel in the late 1970s. talk about -- talk about why egypt has sealed off the border with hamas because that obviously would allow a lot of palestinians to escape. >> egypt used to administer the gaza strip and did until the 1967 six-day war. they know it all too well. there has been infiltration over the years into egypt of people who are committing terrorist acts within egypt among other things. so they just shut down the border as part of their larger effort to maintain internal security. it's about that simple.

>> and that really explains a larger point that americans are just now tuning into this, the atrocities that have happened and hearing about israel and the -- and hamas, and of course, the ongoing palestinian question. i had noticed over the past 10, 15 years. i'm sure you noticed it even longer because you have been so involved in this region for so long, but a growing animosity toward the palestinian cause, because of hamas, because of the palestinian authority, from arab governments. it used to be the arab league would get together. they would unanimously vote against israel. they would vote for causes that were near and dear to hamas' heart. that is no more. that's no longer -- in fact, most of the sunni arab world has turned against hamas and by extension, by the palestinians

living in the gaza strip which of course, is an ongoing tragedy. why? >> lots of reasons. one is the principle backer of hamas is iran. that immediately puts a lot of the sunni arab governments shall we say on notice. people forget their history also, joe. during -- when saddam hussein invaded and occupied kuwait, who was cheering for him? it was the palestinians. a lot of sunni arab governments have a long memory. they have no illusions about that. their whole involvement with terrorism and other radical groups doesn't make the arab governments comfortable. the one thing the arab governments though, joe, have to be careful of, and we see it in some ways with toing and froing, they still consider popular support, and in some ways the governments are in different places in the arab world than

the, quote, unquote, arab street. the governments have to be careful not to get too far out in front of their population, and if you have for example, al jazeera showing all sorts of images, if we get to the point where israel does go in in force, and you see palestinian civilians getting hurt, it's just the sort of thing that's going to make the governments really careful because they face a situation then where sympathy for hamas and sympathy for the palestinians will grow. >> well, there's already of course, a humanitarian crisis that is growing right now in gaza. those images are coming out, of children, of elderly people being hurt by the attacks. many have died. richard, the question is -- because obviously hamas knew this would happen. hamas just beinglunt about it, if an israeli dies, then that's

a victory for hamas. if a palestinian dies, well, israelis trying to go after hamas terrorists, that's also seen as a victory for hamas. they don't care if their people die. in fact, they've said, anybody that tries to make peace with israel will be shot. so the question is, richard, with the united nations warning of a coming humanitarian crisis, that many would say is already there, what do the israelis do? what is their best move? they cannot allow gaza to remain run by these terrorists who have run it without an election since 2007. they have to go in, and they have to root out -- i was going to say isis. might as well be isis. hamas, but how do they do it and avoid just a catastrophic humanitarian crisis? >> so let me be controversial here. there's a difference between what israel will do, are likely

to do, and what it should do. what i fear it will do is go in in mass. i think it will be extraordinarily costly for israeli armed forces. several will get killed or captured. i think it increases the odds dramatically if there's a massive israeli campaign in gaza. the war will widen. that's just the sort of thing i think could bring hezbollah and others into the war. you will get the global, international response. again, there's also that israel will lose some of the high ground. most of all, joe, i do not believe it will succeed if success is defined as eliminating hamas. i fear it could actually work the other way. i also think israel has better options. i would suggest two things. i would say go after hamas in a discreet way, not in a mass way. do targeted attacks, whether it's from the air or from the ground when you have really high-value, quote, unquote, actionable intelligence. shore up israeli defenses facing

gaza. that was what started this or allowed this to happen. the weakness of israeli defense readiness against gaza, so make it impossible for hamas to ever do anything like this ever again and go after individual units of hamas whenever you have a chance, but i would really be careful. i really have questions about reoccupation of gaza. we've seen this movie before. israel got out in 2005 for the very reason that this could not be sustained and when they got out, it created a vacuum, which hamas has filled. i don't want to see a rerun here. >> yeah, and of course, willie, hamas knew that with its barbaric actions that it would pull israel into gaza, almost setting a trap. richard put a lot of options out. the option i would start with is turning the screws on iran and iran's oil revenue as tightly as possible because all of hamas'

funding at the end of the day are most likely like hezbollah's like islamic jihad, it comes from iran. when iran doesn't have oil money, then they can't fund hamas. >> yeah, and we're hearing now that call from republicans and democrats alike about the $6 billion that we have been discussing and everything else. you have to turn the screws. richard, i wanted to ask you as we're talking about the relationship between arab governments and hamas, about a name we haven't talked about much in the last week or so, and that's qatar which hosts in lavish living quarters the leadership of hamas. they're not on the ground in gaza. they're in hamas calling for international jihad this weekend. what is the role of qatar in all of this? might they be able to help get some of the hostages out? you even have foreign policy officials in america saying, america should take or israel should take military action to

take out the leadership of hamas inside qatar. that seems unlikely, but the point is the people running the operation sit comfortably in a different arab nation that's been welcomed into the world. hosted the world cup last year everything else. what's their role in this? >> they are the principle financial backers. if iran is in some ways the principle strategic backer i guess you would call it, qatar hides behind the idea that they're only giving humanitarian help to the people of gaza. money is fungible so that doesn't wash. doesn't bear any scrutiny. i think the united states should, you know, put more pressure on qatar. after 9/11, u.s. policy changed and we declared we no longer drew a distinction between terrorists and those governments that supported terrorism. i think we ought to have a very rough. conversation with qatar. what's holding us back in part, is the united states is so dependent on their for part of their military. it's home to a lot of the u.s.

military forces. it's not an easy conversation, and what we might want to do is talk about the parameters or put certain limits on the help they give to hamas, but you also say one other thing. i think if there is an exchange of hostages for hamas prisoners being held in israeli prisons, qatar will be at the center of it. possibly egypt as well, but certainly qatar will play a significant role here. so we've got multiple considerations here. so it's just very hard to say, well, we'll come down on qatar with it like a ton of bricks because there are other things that play against that. >> so jonathan lemire, president biden positioning this country fully partnered side by side with israel. lots of strength and moral clarity in his words. secretary blinken backing him up with his presence there, but he also is running in a government that has some parallels with israel right now in terms of the chaos in the republican party and no speaker of the house. >> yeah, no speaker of the house which we'll dive into later this

morning. steve scalise dropping out, and president biden's endorsement of israel. there are also warnings about what could come next. make sure to try to avoid civilian casualties and we heard from secretary of state blinken while he was in israel to netanyahu, tap the brakes as to what's going to happen next. richard, i also want to talk to you about the fate of the hostages. i have new reporting this morning looking into why the house is not sending boots on the ground there in part, in deference to israel, but also because they don't know where the hostages are. they suspect they're spread out and hidden amongst civilian targets and they feel like israel's intelligence in that region, not as good as it used to be, which is why it led to the attack last week. if israel goes in this weekend like they're telegraphing they may, what do you think happens to the hundred-odd hostages there, including some americans? >> obviously they're in even greater jeopardy than they are. hamas took the hostages for two

reasons. one was to arrange some kind of a swap to get their own people out. the other was the try to put a break on israeli military action, and if that break doesn't work and if there is widespread military action, i don't mean to sound callous, but what worries me, jonathan, is the quote, unquote, value of these innocent people to hamas goes down, and i fear it puts them at greater risk. can i speak to a larger point? you put your finger on something really big. for the u.s. right now, for the biden administration which has been incredibly supportive of israel, i thought the president's speech the other day was really powerful and just magnificent, but privately, clearly there's growing disagreement with what israel wants to do. the administration is trying to thread the needle. they're supportive of the right to retaliate, but they're saying, just because you have the right, is it really smart? will it leave you better off? and trying to work this out so we are supportive of israel and in some ways trying to pull them

back is threading the needle, and that's what the administration is doing, and quite honestly, we all better hope they succeed because i worry about where this is heading. >> and joe, president biden obviously navigating this on the world stage while back here at home, there is questions hanging over capitol hill as to how to get a functioning congress in place. >> well, i mean, here we have a crisis obviously, one of the gravest crises in the middle east certainly possibly since 1973. we have the grave crisis in the center of europe with ukraine fighting against russian aggression. we have the continued fear that china's going to act aggressively against taiwan, and you have house republicans just inexplicably not picking a

speaker of the house. just make patrick mchenry the temporary speaker for now for god's sake until everybody else can get their act together, but you not only have that. you have the republicans in the house in chaos in this unbelievably dangerous time for the americans in the world. then you have donald trump -- "the wall street journal" editorial page talking about donald trump's, quote, israeli war insight and saying, mr. trump can't help himself from making everything about himself. that's the same way he handled the covid crisis and it's what voters would get in a second trump term in a much more dangerous world. that's from "the wall street journal" editorial page this morning, and they're responding to what israelis are responding to, and that is donald trump going out and praising hezbollah and attacking israel, and its leaders. that's what's going on right now. there's a reason why the israelis are putting up

billboards of joe biden in tel aviv and thanking joe biden for his support because that's what they need right now. it's something i know so many republicans want to give to the israelis, but they need to get their act together in the house. at least get a temporary speaker, and they need to get a presidential candidate who actually doesn't undermine israel right after the worst attack in 50 years. we'll talk about that and much more when "morning joe" comes back. t and much more when "morning joe" comes back symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased

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the republican battle for a new house speaker has descended into an even bigger mess this morning. just one day after the party nominated the majority leader steve scalise for the position, the louisiana congressman

withdrew from the race last night. >> i just share what my colleagues that i'm withdrawing my name for the speaker designee. if i look over the last few weeks, if you look at where our conference is, there's still work to be done. our conference still has to come together, and it's not there. >> joining us now, msnbc contributor, mike barnicle and another mike, the co-founder of axios, mike allen and a congressional reporter for the hill, michael schnell. what happened? what happened at this point? wouldn't it be a moment now more than ever where they need things to just function? get someone in place, let's go. >> it is inexplicable. i mean, i don't know of any political party that would ever act that way. we had a problem with newt gingrich. we took care of that problem in

between sessions, and -- and he moved on, and, you know, john boehner complained about his problems and for good reason. paul ryan quietly would grouse about it, but you had two of the biggest wars in recent history, and so it's a recklessness -- >> yeah. >> it's an irresponsibility. >> yeah. >> it's a lack of leadership, the likes of which none of us have ever seen. >> in our lifetime. >> from the house or the senate really in our lifetime. it seems to me, jonathan lemire, that it's one thing where you have eight people deciding they're going to go their own way, but you had half the conference deciding that they weren't going to go with the will of the majority of the

conference as has always happened. so this has spread from eight people to maybe 90, 95 people. now it seems to me -- i'm wondering if there's any reporting. are they thinking about someone like patrick mchenry just as a temp rir speaker where they say, okay. you just -- you hold the gavel. you run this place until we can get our act together because there's a hot war in the middle east. there's a hot war in the center of europe, and in both cases our allies are in crisis and are going to need our help. >> a phrase we use a lot in this modern era of politics, the trump era if you will, is we've never seen this before, but we've never seen this before. you come out of the closed-door with your nominee, that person is going to be speaker. steve scalise though, didn't even come close. that's just it. he bailed last night because he wasn't just a few votes shy. he was dozens of votes shy. so now where do we go from here?

there are some who support jim jordan who was the runner-up to scalise who think he can make another chance now, though those on the hill say his chances are just as slim as scalise's were. maybe there's a mainstream, moderate candidate who could jump in. not sure who that could be. republicans are saying we've got to make a deal with the democrats and get their support. the democrats say, we might be into that, but we're going to need some real concessions and promises to make that happen, and then there's the mchenry point where there's momentum there, trying to create a mechanism where he could step in in a temporary way because this is happening in such a destabilizing moment. the war in israel, what's happening in ukraine, government shutdown deadline. that's on the horizon. that's only a month away, but again, it's not clear whether they'll be able to pull that off. what are you hearing? is there any end in sight to this crisis? >> the axios hill team has new reporting this morning that bipartisan group of about ten

house members are talking about how they could do it, how they could find a speaker. i know that behind the scenes i have been told there's talk about power sharing. could there be democrats suggest, like, a couple of speakers that would be acceptable to them. in turn they get some say about what goes on the floor. it could be some pretty subtle procedural changes they would go for. i will say i'm skeptical. like you, i've lived through all too many centrist moments, but this is an emergency. >> willie. >> so michael schnell, you have been reporting on every twist and turn of this process. so it's unclear -- is it not? that anyone could get 217. scalise could step aside and say, it's jim jordan. he lost to steve scalise in the preliminary round of voting. is there anybody in that caucus who can get to 217? >> and look, willie, that's obviously the key question here, and i think that you bring up

two really key points that i want to touch on. a, republicans are now likely going to put up a new candidate, jim jordan. as you mention, he secured fewer votes than steve scalise in that internal election. the final tally was 113-99. republicans are now going to try to move ahead with jim jordan who already has less support within the conference, not really a good place to start at, and then when you get into, you know, is there anybody who can secure enough support to wield the gavel, look. jim jordan will likely have the same problem that steve scalise had. the fact that the house gop majority is so slim, you need to have near unanimous support to win speakership on the house floor. there are some republicans coming out against jim jordan. by my count, two, anne wagner and austin scott. already it's an uphill climb for him. >> mike barnicle, i was hearing sound bites from some of these, i guess extremists about why steve scalise shouldn't have the job or whatever.

they were saying things that were so stupid and cruel, and just beyond even bringing up at this table, but don't these people see the fire that's burning around the world that they should think above themselves perhaps and operate? what's going on? >> it's nice seeing an optimist this early. >> i'm not optimistic. i'm just trying to figure it out. >> that's not the case. it's not even the case of the tyranny of the minority. it's a tyranny of ten, and in the middle of that, you get a ray of common sense from even what used to be the republican party. i was listening to chairman mike mcfaul yesterday, and he is upset about what is happening as we are apparently today, and as many people are today. they lack the ability to govern, the basic ability to govern and they don't care about it. >> yeah. >> when you're going to vote for a member of congress, no matter who it is, no matter what party

you're in, you want them to do one thing. you want them to do their job, and their job is doing something for their constituents. >> exactly. >> they've lost that ability. >> joe? >> well, and you are so right and i'm so glad you brought up chairman mccaul. he not only is right on this appointment. he's been right on ukraine. he's actually pushing the biden administration to move further and move faster with the point of weapons we know -- i know because, you know, i was on the hill a few weeks ago. i know there are republicans who want to get this moving, and they are enraged. first of all, eight people held things up. i think though now, listen. i would work a deal. >> yeah. >> i would say to republicans, either get your act together or we're going to work a deal with democrats, and you're going to get run over. that's -- you know, that's what happened when i was in congress.

you stand in the way of what's best for your party and what's best for your country, people build coalition and they run over you. you know, i always hear -- it's such a small minority. i'll go to you on this one and then i'll go to richard on another question, but i'll go to you. mike allen, everyone is always talking about, oh, it's such a small republican majority. oh, who could ever -- i'll tell you who could. nancy pelosi. she had a small majority, and we always said on this -- people said, will this bill pass? i would always say, if it goes to the house floor, it will pass because nancy pelosi knows how to run her caucus. she knows how to pass bills. i'm just struck, mike allen, that we talked about chairman mccaul. i know he's a very capable leader. i know the chairwoman of the appropriations committee, i worked with her.

she's very capable. there are very capable republicans. i wonder at what point do they say, you guys work with us or we're going to run you over and we're going to find some democrats that will help us govern this house. >> joe, that's the perfect contrast. do you govern from fear or do you govern from strength? that's the fatal flaw in the deal that kevin mccarthy took to get the job that he was never going to be able to live -- lead by strength. he was in fear of the tyranny of the one in the case of the chance of losing the gavel, and that's why republicans are weak. there's not somebody who can say, this is what we're going to do. this is what we have to do. coming up, we will go live to israel for what could be a full-scale ground invasion of the gaza strip. the very latest on the war there when "morning joe" comes right back. when "morning joe" comes right back has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or

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coming up, senator cory booker is standing by. he was in israel when hamas

first launched its attack. we'll talk about that and much more when "morning joe" comes right back. >> about this time yesterday, i was jogging behind in the old city when i got an urgent call from my chief of staff telling me to get back to the hotel as quickly that i could, that israel was under attack. when i got back to the hotel, i joined others in the bomb shelter or the stairwells. frightened faces of children and elderly families. many americans. there was a sense of fear and worry, and a knowledge to many of us that there were horrific things going on around the country at that time. we who believe in peace and freedom and human rights for palestinians, for israelis, for all humankind must reject those who use terror as their weapon. who use terror as their weapon

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45 past the hour. when hamas brutally ambushed israel on saturday, democratic senator cory booker of new jersey was in jerusalem for meetings about the abraham accords, and senator booker joins us now here on set. he's a member of the foreign relations committee. so many nightmare stories. you experienced firsthand with the people you were with, where do we begin? tell us about it. >> the jarring juxtaposition of being there, rushing out of the senate to get there early for the celebration the night before. i'm dancing with the torah. the next -- later that evening, i go to a sabbat dinner, and then i go with my host the next morning, and they had both tragically lost family in the most horrifically unimaginable way. i was jogging that morning in the old city, just feeling so much joy and hope for the peace

mission we were on and i get a call from my chief of staff to run back to the hotel because israel's under attack. >> and then how long did you stay? how did you get out? i want to ask you about the politics at home and how that is impacting our ability to be effective in this or not. >> israel's such a small country, the stunning of going in and out of the bomb shelter a good part of that day was to see the effect, the slow dawning of not just people understanding of what was happening, but people being directly connected, losing family members, the horrors, and seeing the effect on families who on holiday wouldn't look at their phone, but we were getting information. the next 24 hours from the president calling me to the state department, we knew we needed to leave because we were sucking resources and energy, but more importantly, i was not going to let this terrorist organization undermine what is the most hopeful period i've seen for real peace in that region. >> and yet hope today is diminishing rapidly given the

just savagery of what has happened there. >> well, this is part of hamas' plan. understand this. this is an organization that was founded not to stop the state of israel. this was an organization founded to kill jews. this is an isis-like, nazi-like organization. they kill their own people. they kill palestinian people. >> right. >> they kill, torture, abduct palestinians, and they plotted this attack targeting civilians, killing children not just because of the viciousness and nature of this evil organization based on hate, but they did it in a way that echoed what they did right after the oslo accords. you have arifat and rabin getting a peace prize with the pathway to peace and they respond to attack and kill israelis to try to derail a pathway to peace. so what was hopeful to me, and i

will return to the region to saudi arabia within days with a bipartisan, small group of senators because one of the best ways to defeat them is to show there's still a pathway to peace. remember, nbs, saudi arabia's leader goes on fox news and says unequivocally, every day we are closer to a peace plan, the palestinians are a critical part of that. our discussions and dialogues, the united states with the administration and the palestinians themselves. for the first time since 1967, saudi arabia goes and sends a delegation back to the west bank. everyone was preparing for re-establishing a pathway to peace, re-establishing the two-state solution, re-establishing dignity, security in their own state for the palestinians, and who goes after to destroy that is this organization based on hate. >> i was there with the president when he met with prime minister netanyahu on the sidelines of the u.n. just a few weeks ago and there was real hope for that process.

we've heard from president biden and forcefully, members in his cabinet saying, the biden administration is standing with israel, but there's only so much they can do in the short-term without a congress, without a speaker of the house, and seemingly no republicans are closer to getting one any time soon. tell us your level of concern as to what you're able to do, what the senate and congress can do if the republicans can't get their house in order. >> i'm grateful for both sides of the aisle. the conversations i have had, and the focus we have had in the senate, leaders about the crises before us. ukraine, we must stand with the ukrainians unequivocally, and we must continue to support that effort. now we have a crisis in a cris. we must stand with israel unequivocally, support our ally who have been attacked. we must set up a humanitarian corridor, try to help relieve the humanitarian crisis now in

gaza. and we must fund our government while there are critical things going on at the state department and other things that are critical. what's happening in the house of representatives does not reflect the majority of republicans and democrats. it is a far right wing faction that are creating circumstances that none of us at this table have ever seen before. i don't know how they are going to resolve this. i actually have hope that republicans understand this is a unique time. you see a coalition government in israel. why not turn to the democrats and make compromise in order to get out of this dysfunction and begin to focus on the issues? whether it's a short period of time, let's make a deal. i'm hoping wiser minds will come up with a bipartisan way forward. going back to the senate this week, i am grateful that people know their priorities as i work with senators from lindsey

graham. >> you just left a region that's been on fire for decades. have you ever focused on the idea that we are sort of a nation of innocents in terms of dealing with war? we're separated by oceans. history has been kind to us. war is a headstone in a cemetery in arlington and things like that. but we don't live in a country where you could get up in the morning and lose your life because you're a jew. what do we do about getting the united states of america, its people, more cognizant of the dangers in that region of the world, including ukraine, more

cognizant of the threat beyond our borders? >> there's a hebrew phrase i learned many years ago. for everything, there is a purpose. we do have a naivete or maybe privilege that we often don't fully appreciate. people in that region, palestinians, israelis have spent a lot of time in bomb shelters. they know people who have died. when i travel to the rest of the middle east on this trip, i was in jordan, uae, bahrain. they understand the fragility of living there. what was amazing to me was these arab leaders from different sectors looking me in the eye and saying hamas is evil, they are thugs. they are the impediment.

they do not stand for islam. they are betraying the palestinian people. people forget all the things hamas has done to undermine a pathway to bring to that region what they yearn for. there are projects going on in jordan to share water and energy and solar raies with the uae. in the senate, we do know it. that's why i'm one of the cofounders of the abraham accords. i know that the pathway to peace is something we have to double down on more than ever. palestinians deserve human rights and their own state. israel deserves security and their own state, the right to exist, the right to thrive.

it's not just about peace and security. we can go to a higher level. we have to do everything we can as americans to support that. >> the challenges we're facing in washington that impact our ability to function as a government and also to lead by example in the world, and there's another big story that we haven't really gotten to given everything that's going on. senator bob menendez with a superseding conspiracy to act as a foreign agent for egypt. he was head of the foreign relations committee. you're on the senate judiciary committee. do you think he should step down? >> yes. let me just say to you very pointedly, i think this is more personal to me than any other senator. bob and i have served together for ten years. he's been my senior senator.

nothing in these indictments comport with the man i know. the indictments are shocking, sensational. and i defended him in his first corruption trial. 11 out of 12 jurors said he was innocent. this rises to a level that i said he should step down, not because he's guilty. he deserves the presumption of innocence. as public officials it's not just the ethics level, not just the criminal level. there's another level which is important, which is the public trust. i said in a long statement that i believe he should step down because of that and focus on defending himself against these charges. i'm hoping he comes to that conclusion, but at the end of the day that's his choice. there will be ethics proceedings

going on, criminal proceedings going on. but do i think he should step down? yes. >> democratic senator cory booker of new jersey, thank you for coming in during this really difficult time. coming up, we return live to israel as civilians in northern gaza are ordered to evacuate ahead of a possible ground invasion. plus we'll be joined by house republicans. we'll ask them how their party can find their way out of their seemingly self-inflicted chaos. seemingly self-inflicted chaos

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panic, and for security and not surrender. as this harrowing week draws to a close and as shabbat draws near, we stand together and we stand strong. the united states has israel's back, and that is not negotiable. >> secretary of defense lloyd austin speaking earlier this morning in tel-aviv alongside his israeli counterpart. welcome back to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. israel's military has ordered a large-scale evacuation of the entire northern half of gaza within 24 hours, a clear sign that a potential ground invasion is imminent. israel dropping leaflets seen here over gaza, warning that just over 1 million civilians in the area have to leave immediately. let's go right to raf sanchez,

who is in the southern city of ashdad, israel. >> reporter: that evacuation order issued by the israeli military is absolutely unprecedented in scope and scale. it suggests that the israeli ground operation in gaza, which we expect to begin soon, will also be unprecedented in its scope and scale. this morning, there are difficult questions about what that invasion may mean and whether it could put the hostages in danger. this morning israel issuing a stark order to palestinian civilians. evacuate the entire northern half of gaza before it's too late. israel says the area is full of hamas military sites, but it's also home to more than a million people. with gaza's border sealed, there's nowhere for them to run.

hamas is urging civilians not to leave. the terror group also announcing 13 hostages, including foreigners, were killed by israeli bombing. the claim has not been verified by nbc news and was met with skepticism by an israeli military spokesperson. a rescue mission would be carried out by israeli commandos, but fears growing about what a ground invasion would mean for the 150 hostages. among them, this 20-year-old. >> we had a shabbat dinner. >> reporter: he was at the festival. hamas gunmen killed more than 260 people. omar last seen in this video on

saturday. what is it like to see you brother like this? >> truly unbelievable. why? why does it have to be like this? why does it have to be us? >> reporter: omar's room just as he left it last friday. what is it like for you to be in here? >> it's weird. >> reporter: and the family dog lucas sensing something's wrong. if you could speak to the people holding him, what would you tell them? >> i just want him back. i don't want vengeance. i just wish he could be with us right now. >> reporter: a family, one of many, praying to be reunited. and mika, you played that sound earlier from defense secretary lloyd austin, who is here in israel today. you'll remember that before he was a member of president biden's cabinet, he was a senior u.s. army general responsible for the campaign against isis in northern iraq.

he says he knows isis and has fought isis, but the savagery committed by hamas is above and beyond anything he's seen. >> joining us now, veteran journalist halah garani. she has reported from every country in the middle east and has won numerous awards for her reporting. could you share with us your analysis in terms of the complexities and challenges beyond the state of the hostages of a ground invasion? >> israel has twice mounted incursions into gaza, in 2009 and in 2014, much more limited in scope than what we're anticipating now. some of the complexities and dangers for the israeli troops is that they will start a ground war that will draw them into

door-to-door, building-to-building urban warfare. it is extremely difficult and dangerous. it's not necessarily something that the troops amassed at the northern border with gaza are prepared for. a lot of these are reservists. they haven't trained or expected to be sent into gaza to mount a ground defensive. the israeli military will have to target the tunnels and the hiding places at the same time as trying to free the hostages, at least 150 hostages that we know of that could be hidden that are certainly moved very often in parts of the territory that the israeli military is going to want to target. and then there's that evacuation order which the united nations says is impossible and could lead to a death sentence for those people who are in the hospital. the civilians are going to be

suffering immensely in the coming weeks and beyond. >> given the urgent issues, there's also the issue of a wider war breaking out. if you could talk a little bit about the effort front of mind for the united states' administration to bring in countries in the region to help prevent this from escalating and lighting a fire that sweeps across the region. is it even possible? talk about the time constraints involved. >> there are time constraints, because with this evacuation order, israel is sending a message that a ground incursion is going to happen relatively soon. what i found really interesting is that the saudi crown prince mohammed bin salman and the iranian president had a 45-minute phone call two days ago. it was kind of underreported, i thought. it was their first direct

communication since march. as many of our viewers know, iran is accused of supporting hezbollah and hamas. this phone call, according to reports, was initiated by the iranian president. is that an indication potentially that iran is trying to send a signal that it will not push some of these militant groups that it weaponizes in its effort to control the region to try to deescalate a situation so it does not explode into an all-out regional war. we all hope that's what's going to happen, but the fact that these two leaders who control so much of the power here are talking is perhaps a sign that there is an effort going on behind the scenes.

today president biden is expected to speak with the families of americans believed to be held hostage in hamas. the president was asked about the scheduled call. here's what he had to say. >> why do you feel so strongly about speaking to these families personally on zoom? >> because i think they have to know that the president of the united states of america cares deeply. we have to communicate to the world this is not even human behavior. it's pure barbarism. we're going to do everything we can to get them home if we can find them. >> joining us is jen psaki, reverend al sharpton and donny deutsch.

joe, president biden, most agree has been rather remarkable on the world stage with his words and his intentions. the humanity of this president is also playing a huge role in making israel understand that truly they have a partner. >> it's been unequivocal. as the secretary of defense said, the united states supports israel and that's not negotiable. i take note of the "wall street journal" editorial today quoting donald trump and what he's been saying about israel, talking about -- and i'm quoting from the "wall street journal" -- you know hezbollah is very smart. they're all very smart. they're quoting trump.

i said that president xi of china, 1.4 billion people, he controls it with an iron fist, a very smart man. then the "wall street journal" editorial page says we leave it to the trump partisans to explain that and this one about vladimir putin. i get along with him very good. you know, i actually get along with the tough guys the best. then the journal says, perhaps mr. trump's most revealing comments were about prime minister benjamin netanyahu, who made trump mad because netanyahu publicly acknowledged that president biden won the 2020 election, as if a foreign leader could say anything else. quote, they're quoting donald trump here, he was very early, like earlier than most in acknowledging biden won. donald trump says of benjamin

netanyahu, i haven't spoken to him since . f him. he told the writer for axios. you contrast that with the billboard up in tel-aviv this morning thanking president biden and the american people. they're thanking the american people for supporting them. there's the billboard in tel-aviv. that's not a political statement. that's a statement of gratitude to the people of the united states for being unequivocal. donny, our leaders have been unequivocal in government. not so on college campuses where they continue to bite their tongues for a terrorist group. they won't take sides condemning

a terrorist group, hamas, who burn and shoot up babies. we saw those horrid pictures yesterday. who mutilate children, who burn young people and their grandparents, who shoot children in front of their parents and shoot parents in front of their children and commit atrocities. this was the most, i think, telling part of secretary of defense lloyd austin's press conference, a man who actually knows the region, who actually fought isis. he said that the atrocities committed by hamas, these terrorists, who college presidents are afraid to speak

out against. the atrocities committed by hamas were worst than any atrocities he saw on the ground committed by isis. thank god we have a government that is not morally equivocate ing terrorism and calling this what it is, just sheer terrorism. >> thank you for the clarity of your discussion this morning and i wish we had clarity all around where we don't. let us salute our president and leaders and the secretary of defense and the secretary of state for their clarity. hamas is a terror organization. it has one mission statement, to slaughter jews around the planet. that is their goal. there's no moral equivalence. you can have empathy on all sides, but there is no gray area

here. unfortunately, to your point, there seems to be gray area around the campuses. across the board, there is not absolute condemnation. you can condemn terrorism, you can condemn the killing of jews and it does not minimize suffering in other places. it is a very clear signal. unfortunately, not all the media is getting that. the bbc has guidelines for their reporters to not call hamas terrorists, but to call them militants or fighters. it skews the coverage here. somehow talking about trump minimizes what's going on. but i have heard my jewish friends say i'm voting for donald trump because he's good for israel. no, he's not. joe biden good for israel. this defense of donald trump -- and this is my friends and

jewish people around the country, well, he's good for israel. no, he's not. >> do you think they still think that? >> no, they don't. let's be clear about hamas. >> you are right. i don't want to minimize the discussion by spending too much time talking about a former president, who is attacking israe at just the worst of possible times. reverend al, you have had a very close friendship with the head of the adl for quite some time. i know i saw you all talk after the slaughter in pittsburgh, and i know how upset you have been and how much you all have talked about anti-semitism in america

and across the globe over the past several years. i'm wondering, again, just what your thoughts are on the moral equivocation of some people afraid to call evil what it is. i certainly understand we have to be careful. we have to separate hamas from the palestinian people. if these people attacking israel looked more closely, they would see that actually the palestinian people have been victims of hamas since 2005. anybody calling for peace or raising their children in a peaceful nation could get shot by hamas. their founding documents say their job is to kill jews and destroy the nation of israel. they say in their documents

peaceful coexistence is no option. what would you say to a college professor afraid to speak out against terrorism when we see images of babies being burned, babies being shot, of young children being gunned down in front of their parents, young children having to see their parents gunned down, kids going to music festivals just being slaughtered? what would you say to these people who are morally equivocating because these are jews? >> i would say that they are moral cowards. you cannot have a moral center based on who you're going to be outraged by. when you see what happened by hamas in israel, i mean, we're talking about babies, the elderly, the people that had nothing to do with the policies of netanyahu or anybody else

just sacrificing. you're all right with that? then how do you have any credibility when you talk about gun control here, but you don't care about slaughter in israel? you can question netanyahu. you can question him telling a million people to relocate. but you can't do it if you don't say what happened was wrong. it gives us the moral authority to say maybe we should look at this whole thing with the palestinians that are now going to be displaced differently, because we have said this was slaughter, these were terrorists, these were not militant activists. these were murderers that don't care about human life. if you don't set the premise right, then you're just nitpicking and playing for what's trendy to your crowd. >> amen. >> they said in their documents, as you quoted, joe, that we will kill people that seek peace. how hard is it for you to say

these people need to be dealt with and all of us need to be united and then we can figure out where to go from here. >> i just could not agree more with what you have said, because there will come a time, i am sure, when this war is over. and when this war is over and there is actually a side that will negotiate for a two-state solution, people can be damn sure that when they tune in to this show, we will be pushing israel to move toward a two-state solution. that has been the goal of the united states. that has been a goal of a prime ministers in israel. but right now you cannot negotiate with terrorists. you cannot negotiate with people who burn babies. you cannot negotiate with people

who shoot their own just because they're talking about a peaceful coexistence between israelis and palestinians. >> joe, war is chaos, it's death, it's destruction, and sometimes it's inevitable. when the war is over -- this is a great phrase uttered throughout history by many people. it's a sad phrase. so is the "wall street journal" that you just read an excerpt from where the former guy calls hezbollah smart. in ten days, on october 23rd, this country will experience probably pass it by unknowingly, the 40th anniversary of the day when two buses driven by hezbollah soldiers drove into the marine corps barracks in

beirut. over 200 marines were killed that day. smart people, hezbollah. that takes me, jen, to your former boss, the president of the united states, joseph r. biden of delaware. could you speak to the point that experience counts in the oval office, that character counts in the oval office and that joe biden is the one individual who, as joe scarborough just pointed out, could help and is helping get us to a point where there is a two-state solution in the middle east? >> i think what people are seeing right now is what i saw working for him for two years and what many people have seen who worked for him much longer than that, which is the former chairman of the foreign relations committee who has known benjamin netanyahu for decades, who has been an

unquestioned defender of israel. he's also somebody who has an enormous heart. i have no question that he is waking up every morning thinking about these families and the hostages who are being held, because that's who he is in his heart. i also think the other piece of this is he is somebody who thinks about the day after . it's important to be unrelentingly defending the actions of israel, supportive of the israeli people, calling out anti-semitism. he also has his secretary of state out in the world right now, because this is a complicated diplomatic situation, meeting with other countries, trying to prevent an escalation, trying to plan for what's going to happen with all of these refugees. this is a man who has been preparing for this moment and this crisis and the humanity and the heart and the experience

that's required to lead in the world for probably his entire career. i think that's what people are seeing out there right now. >> i'm so glad that mike brought up what happened 40 years ago to our marines because of hezbollah. i'm glad he brought that up, first of all, to remember these victims of iranian terrorism and also to draw a through line. we can talk about hamas, we can talk about hezbollah, we can talk about islamic jihad, but those are actually just tragic symptoms of the underlying cancer, which mika, your father knew all too well. and that is iran, who has been the epicenter of terrorism since

1979. they have been killing americans whenever they get a chance since 1979. they have been killing jews whenever they get a chance since 1979. your father knew it firsthand. the iranians told him after they took our hostages to turn over the shah of iran. your father told him, his words, go to hell. and right now we can continue talking about managing hamas, degrading hamas, trying to figure out how to deal with hezbollah, but make no mistake, the source of that cancer for over 40 years has been iran. its leaders in iran, iran a great people, a great history, a

great heritage, but they are run by savages, who have turned their guns on their own people time and time again. so the united states' policy, yes, we have to support israel, we have to work towards a two-state solution eventually after hamas is rooted out and dug up. but it all starts, as your father would say, it all starts in tehran. 40 years ago they killed over 200 american marines. now they've killed more americans, and of course, they have been the funders of everything we're talking about today. without the leaders in tehran, we would not be talking about this slaughter, because it never would have happened. >> new messages being sent

clearly by president biden, secretary blinken, lloyd austin even this morning, a message to the world, also a message to iran, which is a conversation that needs to be had for sure. i guess we're having it right now. coming up on "morning joe," one day after securing the gop's nomination for house speaker, congressman steve scalise has withdrawn from the race. we'll talk to two house republicans about the turmoil in the chamber and how it could impact u.s. aid for israel. r and impact u.s. aid for israel

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i just shared with my colleagues that i'm withdrawing my name as candidate for the speaker designee. if you look over the last few weeks, if you look where our conference is, there's still work to be done. our conference still has to come together, and it's not there. >> and with that, majority

leader steve scalise withdrew his name for consideration for the house speakership one day after securing the republican nomination in conference. what does the republican party do now? let's bring in republican congressman mike lawlor of new york and kelly armstrong of north dakota. when i think about this globally, like both of you, i'm very, very concerned about israel, very concerned about ukraine, very concerned about america's role in the world. when i just think about politics, congressman lawlor, i think of you, actually, first, because you're one of those republicans that won in a biden district. i just wonder what are people saying at home about this republican conference not being able to elect a speaker? >> look, joe, there's 18 districts that joe biden won in

2020 that republicans now represent in congress, mine being one of them. and they elected us to serve as a house republican majority as a check and balance on the biden administration, on the spending, on the border, on some of the international policy. obviously, we can't do that without a speaker. it's why i was opposed to removing kevin mccarthy in the first place. you don't remove a speaker midterm without cause. obviously the house is a bit paralyzed. i think the french would call it a cluster fark. this is something we need to resolve immediately so we can get back to the work of the american people and especially representing a district like mine, the 17th district of new york, which has one of the largest jewish communities in the country. i'm deeply concerned about the

situation in israel and want to make sure that we immediately pass additional supplemental aid as well as legislation like mine, the ship act, which would impose stricter sanctions on iranian petroleum. >> you're standing in front of the will rogers statue. he famously said, i don't belong to an organized party, i'm a democrat. a lot of. republicans in your conference saying that could apply to the republican party. a lot of republicans are not happy about what they're seeing in congress. what are you hearing at home? and what are you telling your fellow conference members? >> i'm telling them the same thing i'm telling everybody. this wasn't a mccarthy program. i spoke on the floor in favor of keeping kevin.

a coup without a successor is just chaos. this wasn't a kevin mccarthy problem. to be honest, it wasn't a steve scalise problem. it's a problem with the majority. we have rules with no consequences. we're going to go in at 10:30 this morning and trying to figure this out. there are a lot of people working on numerous pieces of legislation involving iran and support for israel and all of that. we were supposed to be in district this week. >> go ahead. >> i was going to say we were supposed to be in district this week. we have to get this figured out by monday or tuesday, because that's when we're supposed to be in session and doing the work of the american people. >> congressman lawlor, we've heard a couple of different options, the possibility of republicans figuring out a way to work with some democrats. i think all of us who have

served understand what a high bar that would be to reach. what about the possibility of maybe getting patrick mchenry to be a speaker as a stopgap measure until the conference gets behind somebody else? >> so i think obviously in this day and age it's going to be a little hard to have some sort of bipartisan compromise candidate. the reality is we have a house republican majority. we need to elect a republican speaker. i think in the absence of being able to reach 217 in the room, it's going to be critically important to advance the work of the american people. i think if we're unable to come to an agreement within the next 24 to 48 hours, then we need to, in my opinion, give expanded authority to the speaker pro tem, patrick mchenry so we can at least start moving legislation on the floor while

we work out who the long-term speaker would be. it's not ideal, but i think it's a reality given some of the crises we're dealing with. we cannot continue down this path. everybody's got to put their big boy pants on, come back to 217 and get back to work. >> you said how this current situation is sort of politically embarrassing at home. what sort of message is this sending to the world right now in a time of crisis in israel, a time of crisis in ukraine and washington can't get its house in order because of the republican house of representatives? >> i think it's a perfect example of why kevin mccarthy should have still been here. there's nobody whose bona fides on behalf of israel are more legitimate. as mike said earlier, the

american people sent republicans to congress to be a check and balance in the senate and the house. we need a republican leader showing the world we are capable of doing these things. so when we don't have one, it is not great for us internally, it is not great for the country and, no, it's not great for the world. >> congressman lawlor, last segment we were talking about how the terror attacks, whether you're talking about hamas or hezbollah, it all starts in tehran with the leaders there. and of course they're funded by oil. that's just it. we talked about the $6 billion fund. that came out of a waiver for south korea in 2018. what do we do as a country to turn the screws on the money, the petro dollars flowing in and out of tehran? >> the biggest purchaser of

iranian oil is china. the ship act is intended to impose sanctions on anyone who purchases, transports, refines iranian patroleum. the free world needs to crack down on tehran. they are the biggest sponsor of terror. they fund and back hezbollah and other terrorist organizations with the express intent of wiping israel off the face of the earth, period. there is no moral equivalency here. we must stand shoulder to shoulder with israel and support them in their efforts to eliminate hamas and any other would be bad actors who think this is the moment to strike. i can say that would be a disastrous mistake for anyone to take action at this moment. we need to eliminate hamas. i fully support israel and its right to exist and to defend

itself. we need to crack down on tehran like never before, because the iranian petroleum is what helps fund the terrorism and it needs to stop. >> good luck getting to 217. >> thank you. this sunday poland is going to be holding key parliamentary elections. the results could have a huge impact on how much the country continues to aid neighboring ukraine in their war against russia. nbc news foreign correspondent josh lederman has more from warsaw. >> reporter: in the final days of a hard-fought polish election ukraine's future is hanging in the balance as far-right populists who want to cut support to ukraine say enough is enough, arguing it's worsening poland's own check problems. >> america first for me.

>> do you see the similarities with president trump's approach? >> of course. [indiscernible] >> reporter: at a campaign rally in warsaw more like a rock concert, kristaps is firing up support. the confederation is still small, polling around 10%, but its anti-ukraine message is resonating with the party's base, young men with a libertarian bent. this supporter saying helping a neighbor shouldn't take top priority, our country comes first. the polls are incredibly tight, but neither party is going to win. they have to form a coalition. in the campaign's final das the president has been moving to the right and arguing cheap

ukrainian grain is hurting polish farmers. >> i'm quite sure it's politics before an election. >> reporter: it's a sharp shift from poland, who was ukraine's staunchest supporter. a year ago, there was support for ukraine, but today things look very different. the government said maybe poland will send older weapons later. and president duda compared ukraine to a drowning man who might pull its savior poland down with them. what do you think when you hear people talk like that? she says, of course i agree, because local small businesses are going bankrupt. people have no money. soon a coffee and a piece of cake will be a luxury. the opposition party is campaigning on a pro ukraine pro

eu message, trying to peel away voters in struggling areas in poland's rust belt, where shuttered coal mines have driven up unemployment. they're hoping that while poland's support for ukraine has slipped, it hasn't entirely disappeared. do you want to see poland continue to provide weapons for ukraine? >> definitely, definitely, yes. >> yes, but not necessarily the amount of help we are giving right now. we gave more than we had. >> reporter: there's ukraine fatigue in a growing number of other european capitals. slovakia cutting off days just days after populists won their election. and hungary's victor orban threatening to use his veto power to eliminate all ukrainian aid. at a rally for the center left party, warsaw's mayor says the party is taking its views

straight from likeminded leaders in the u.s. how closely are people in poland watching what's happening in congress? >> we are watching what's happening in the united states. what we see in congress makes us a bit apprehensive. it's not the whole republican party, just a part of the republican party. >> reporter: the rise of the far-right raising tough questions about whether the help ukraine depends on may soon dry up. >> it is hard to overstate the importance, jen psaki, of that election, but it underlines so many things coming at the biden administration and the united states so quickly. you look at the war in the middle east and the war in central europe. you look at these elections coming up on sunday. you look at china continuing to flex aggressively about the possibility of invasion of

taiwan. this is the wrong time to have a speakership empty. as josh lederman's package showed, the whole world is watching. >> that's exactly right. they're watching the chaos in washington. they're watching the fact that there's no speaker. foreign capitals with well aware that congress can't pass additional aid packages without a speaker of the house. they know u.s. politics. this is exactly why the biden administration is pushing for an aid package once we hopefully get to that point that includes not just assistance for israel, which is so important at this moment, but also assistance for ukraine, assistance to support the aggression we're seeing around taiwan, because all of these are happening at the same time. one of the impacts of all of our understandable focus and necessary focus on what's happening in israel is kind of a lack of focus a bit on what's still happening and the

brutality that russia, vladimir putin and others are inflicting on ukraine and their desperate need for aid and assistance at this pivotal moment. coming up, law enforcement on high alert around the country after a former hamas leader called for a, quote, day of anger. since last weekend's massacre, we've seen great scenes of solidarity with israel, including our next guest. we'll talk think about next on "morning joe." ♪♪ ♪♪

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police across the country have stepped up patrols of jewish businesses and synagogues after calls for attacks on the u.s. increase online. former hamas leader called for today to be a global day of anger in support of the hamas terror attacks in israel. multiple law enforcement officials are telling nbc news they are monitoring, quote a lot of chatter on social media but saying none of the online threats are specific and credible. in new york the nypd ordered its entire force to be in uniform and on patrol today. they will have additional security at large gatherings as well as jewish community cultural sites and synagogues. let's bring in right now rabbi matthew guard and staff writer for "the atlantic," thank you both for being with us. rabbi, let me begin with you.

you have spoken about how in your life in america this is the most terrified you have seen members of the jewish community. what comfort can you provide today for members of the jewish community? not only in your congregation but across america. >> joe, thanks for having me back, i didn't know that three weeks after i'd be back for this. all the world is on a teetering narrow bridge. that's how we feel right now. one that has made us terrified, undone, in shock, we're unbelievably numb, and because of all the reporting that you have so poignantly done -- and by the way, it's been a comfort to our community this week -- and you've said it all. 1,100 not militants, not

soldiers, not freedom fighters, but terrorists who para glided into a concert, who shot israelis who were in a music vibe. they went from town to town from kibbutz to kibbutz and also then killed an 88-year-old woman who had a dementia, no problem. five people in a home burnt down to the ground, no problem. 16-year-old women, blood dripping from their pants from rape, no problem, and babies, of course, as we've heard all week long not just killed but decapitated, that with a significant uptick in anti-semitism has made us terrified. but the second part of that song says the principle is that we're not going to be scared. we're terrified but we are not going to be paralyzed. i have seen jewish unity locally here in america that i have not seen in years. thousands of people within hours showing up in solidarity. you see in israel, we're talking about benny gantz and netanyahu

who have come together in a unity government because they know there's an enemy bigger than they are, and finally we're not going to be paralyzed because i feel clear eyed. i feel there's moral clarity i have not seen in decades, and i'm happy to go further into that. we are terrified, but we will not be paralyzed. >> there are a lot of afraid people out there. one of my friend's daughters said to her is there going to be another holocaust here. the brand mission statement of the nazis is no different than hamas. it's really, really clear. joe talked about this earlier, the unfortunate similarities to the holocaust and why people are so afraid. it was just in our lifetime that 6 million jews were slaughtered and people keep saying the same thing is happening with the silence that's come from so many people about what's going on.

>> my dad was barely born here, probably cooked in europe and born in america, so 24 first cousins and my great grandmother, sorry to be so graphic, the report came to him, her head was rolling down a polish street. this is very close to us. this day has been the most jews killed in a day since the holocaust, so you want to parse down israeli and palestinian complicity over the 75 years, we can do that, but the truth is the reason this is different and martin fletcher said this earlier and joe said it earlier it's right there in the charter. it's not about land. this is about killing israelis and eradicating jews anyplace and anywhere. that's why this reminds us. if never again means never again, then never again. >> yair a couple of questions for you. first of all, how did this happen? how did israel's government, how

were they so ill-prepared and not just at the initial attack but, you know, we heard the heroic reports about the retired general who was on a bike. he heard that people were in trouble. he got a pistol. he got in his car, and he went down and he was a hero. he went down and saved lives. that's the first question. the second question is we look at the possible invasion of gaza. what should the united states government do regarding egypt? should we ask egypt to allow safe passage for the palestinians that are trapped in gaza right now? >> really big questions, very hard to answer in this amount of time, but they're good ones, which is how did this happen, how did this israeli security establishment miss something of this magnitude. it's the greatest failure certainly since the war 50 years

ago, and there will be a tremendous inquiry into this within israel, and they'll find out a lot more. it seems clear that there were intelligence signals that were missed. this happened before 9/11 as well. there usually are inklings of something but people just miss what happened, and afterwards they put it together. you mentioned these israeli generals and others, basically civilians often in their 60s these generals who come out of retirement and start rescuing civilians. it's also evidence of failure that other experts and people who know what they're doing have to come out of retirement because the institutions have failed, and i think part of the inquiry into this will be over netanyahu's current government, which has many far right elements, a lot of cronies he had to give power to in order to create it. those people were not necessarily qualified for their jobs. you have these posers who have now been separated from the professionals by crisis, and i think that's more and more that will probably come out. in terms of gaza and president

biden and, you know, the situation there. so you definitely would like, you would love to let gazaen refugees into egypt because they are in this tiny enclave, we have nowhere to go. they are basically hostage to hamas. they are not responsible, but egypt has resisted for a very, very long time letting any gazans in whatsoever for a whole bunch of reasons, and they are continuing to say we are not going to let anybody in. people talk about israel surrounding gaza, that part of the border of gaza is the border with just a minute. that is the border you can let people out of it. you can let people out through the border in egypt. i'm sure there's intensive diplomacy going on around this, but at the moment it has not yet succeeded. >> we have heard so powerfully from the rabbi about the impact on his community. talk to us about do you see

signs of hope that so many different faiths are rallying together to support the jewish people. >> i think the sign of hope is in that when you come outside of your comfort zone, come outside of your tribe so to speak, and stand up for what's right for others, that's what gives people hope, and that's why i'm glad that i have been able to work with rabbi and jonathan greenblatt over the last several years. i challenged people if it was trayvon martin or george floyd, where are y'all? well, they won't have to ask where i am. i'm going to stand up for the slaughter that happened in israel and stand up for the rights of palestinians. >> and the last word to you rabbi. >> reverend al that means everything to us. we will be there for you the way you are for us right now. last word, is i was on the set three weeks ago. one night my daughter had to run out of her first high school football game as a freshman because there was a fake gun incident there.

the next night we were swatted at the beginning of the jewish year. last night she said mom and dad is this the day tomorrow that we're going to be bombed, and then you think to yourself, this is the world in which we're raising our kids? the jewish national anthem, ha teak va is not about pride, it's about hope. i feel like it's in our dna that our faith which is not blind belief. it's doubt plus belief equals faith. with god at our backs that we shall overcome. >> and rabbi, this morning the words -- i will only give you the words in the few seconds we have remaining that our secretary of defense said in israel, america supports israel. that is not negotiable. thank you both and please come back. we would love to hear more from you as soon as possible. that does it for this morning. josé diaz-balart picks up the