>> a very good morning to all of you. it is sunday october 15th, i'm alex witt. >> and i'm ali velshi. we're continuing to keep a close eye on israel and gaza after israel issued fresh warnings over the past 24 hours that it suggests it's preparing to launch the next phase of the war. according to three senior israeli officials who spoke with the new york times, israel's ground invasion will begin soon, and tens of thousands of soldiers -- with the ultimate goal of destroying hamas. the group that governs gaza, and which was responsible for last week's attack. overnight, nbc news crews captured tanks moving on the israeli side of the border, and reported hearing drones and fighter jets flying overhead. israeli troops also continue to surround a gaza, as the country's leaders escalate talks about an impending invasion. in a new statement released

yesterday, the israeli defense forces or idf says they're preparing for an expansion of confidence -- that will include an integrated and coordinated attack from the air, sea, and land, and quote. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu visited some of the soldiers along the border yesterday, and was heard asking, quote, are you ready for the next stage? >> forces are also now evacuating sderot, one of the israeli towns along the border that was attacked by hamas luck next week. >> meanwhile, the humanitarian crisis -- is real isis >> another three hour safe passage to allow them to free to the south. >> overwhelmed, civilians are running out of places to go. rockets are continuing to hit parts of gaza, destroying buildings and turning some

neighborhoods to nothing more than piles of rubble. the united states should the united s ta >> have been displaced in jut the past eight days. now, one hospital in southern israel is already taking in 35,000 people, while continuing to treat patients injured by the ongoing attacks. that's as of this morning, and at least -- people have been killed in gaza and at least 1300 have been killed in israel. >> meanwhile, the efforts to get the u.s. citizens out of gaza he appears to have hidden impasse. -- with egypt remains closed, as a tentative deal to allow americans to pass through hits significant obstacles. joining us right now from israel is nbc news foreign correspondent joshua. also with us, esther sullivan, editor and chief of the israeli news organization -- from tel aviv. welcome to you both. let's go first with you josh. what is the latest regarding what we know about israel's military movements along, the preparations for invading gaza,

as well as the efforts to get people out of northern gaza? >> the focus right now is really on trying to get people from northern gaza into southern gaza. israel's military has been open about the fact that the ground incursion, given when it starts, is going to focus at least initially on their northern area, the populated area of gaza city. so israel's military, again today, declaring a specific window, a three-hour period where they said you can travel on these specific roads from gaza city and that area farther down south, and we will not hit those roads during that window, which expired about two hours ago. now, it's unclear how many people were actually able to make it during that period of time. the roads have been congested, all kinds of people trying to flee. the infrastructure is obviously a mess after so many israeli airstrikes over the past week or so. but in the meantime, the u.s. government also trying to encourage americans who are on the gaza strip to get as far

south as they can, sending out a message via the embassy to americans, saying that basically if you are in southern gaza, closer to that rafah border with egypt, you are more likely to be able to get out safely, if and when these delicate diplomatic negotiations with the egyptians to try to get people out through that crossing, which has basically been closed, are eventually successful. and as the u.s. is trying to get americans out of gaza, this is also trying to create options for americans who are stuck here in israel and can't get flights out, to get out this country. so tomorrow morning there's going to be a ship leaving from right here in haifa. you see the port behind me, americans are being encouraged to show up right here at about eight a.m. for a ship that will leave here heading for about an 8 to 8-hour jury -- i to find their own flights back to the united states. and as all of those tensions are continuing in southern israel, also a lot on israel's

northern border with lebanon, i was just out there and half an hour ago inside -- for the entirety of the israel border, a two and a half mile zone where israel is saying the public needs to stay away. it is not safe, there have been continuing hezbollah attacks in that area throughout the day. today, israel also restricting gps there as they call it an active combat zone. they are trying to do what they can to tamp out tensions and prevent a second front in this war with hezbollah and lebanon. >> let me quickly ask you, that border crossing that is supposed to allow safe passage into egypt, just want to confirm. is it functioning? you say it is closed, has there been any damage to it? any movement there that would suggest it would remain closed? or is it a functioning border crossing? >> it depends who you ask. we do know that it has been struck with airstrikes in the last several days. the egyptians have said that

it's functional, that they can still use it. but the palestinian ambassador, whose presence at that border crossing, says nobody's getting out there. it's not functioning at all. so there have been differing versions of events about this. there have been an effort over the past several days to get americans and other civilians out through that border crossing. it was not successful. so the efforts continue, including discussions at the u.s. government and the state are having with egyptians you get that border open, for humanitarian aid to get in. >> okay, thank you for that. let's move to -- prime minister benjamin netanyahu visited soldiers along the border yesterday, following his poorly received friday night speech. how was his visit received, and what has been the feeling towards him among the israeli population at this point? >> good to be with you. his visit was greeted with some skepticism, which isn't surprising bearing in mind the

majority of israelis, even though they are perhaps not entirely enthusiastic about expressing the full extent of their disillusionment with them, are extremely angry about how they say that he has brought israel into the situation. not that hamas is not to blame for this horrific assault on israel, but the prime minister seems to have been fatally distracted by all sorts of other issues that he prioritized above the safety, the basic safety of israeli civilians. so yes, he visited some of the scenes of the hamas attack. he was there for a very short time, had some photos taken, and then went straight back home. >> esther ali velshi here, netanyahu has formed a unity government with opposition

lawmakers on the left, things that he has not been able to do in the last ten months or so. how is that working out? what's the context with his release citizens right now, despite the fact that there has been endless criticism of netanyahu over the last ten months, and protests. israelis, do they have faith in this new coalition government and the ability to execute this war and deal with hamas? >> one thing i would say, i don't think the leader of the main opposition party could be described as a leftist. it is much more of a center right. but i think he is at least brought the word center in that description, which cannot be applied to any of netanyahu's existing government. so yes, the idea behind inviting gantz into the government is to give more legitimacy to the government, which has had such a terrible disaster on its record now, in

terms of its response, but also to give some kind of a broader based coalition, legitimacy and for israel taking -- >> extra, i'm curious. we've certainly seen protests around the world for this last week. both in support of israel as well as palestine. so what are your thoughts of the reaction around the world, and how that compares to that which is within israel? it >> well, what is happening within israel is still very much a state of shock. and enormous anger, and quite some fear about the fate of the hostages, the civilian and soldier hostages being held by hamas in gaza that were abducted from their border communities. this is a major public civil society campaign now, to bring them back. obviously, there are many other

events that it happened so quickly here. after the terrible events of last weekend, the constant rocket fire from gaza, there's the confrontation with hezbollah on the northern border, which is extremely worrying. and then there is this emerging humanitarian crisis with gaza as well. now, most israelis don't really have the bandwidth to be spending too much time thinking about what this humanitarian crisis in gaza could mean. but obviously, the images that come out in the manner of social media and the news in general. a new picture overrides an older picture. so what is being seen of the forced evacuation of palestinians from northern gaza, of course it's a very striking

and upsetting image for the rest of the world. whereas the images from hamas's assault are also extremely upsetting as well. so you have this synchronization between the israelis and the rest of the world -- >> a sir, thank you for that. and josh lederman as well, thank you for your reporting. we'll be back to you a little bit later in the show. alex, the point esther makes, because -- you have these true sets of images coming out. they're both horrific. for his release, they're still processing. last saturday, one week ago, has not finished them yet and we continue to see more pictures and more hopes for their loved ones who are taken hostage. meanwhile, we're seeing these images out of gaza, it fills the mind. >> it's hard to think about anything else. >> it's really hard. >> joining us now is national security analyst clint watts.

clint, one of the things that esther just talked about is understanding what this thing is that's happening in gaza. the new york times is reporting that an invasion of gaza will happen soon, with the goal of capturing gaza city, which is by far the largest part of gaza, and getting rid of hamas's leadership. we do believe that israel has started some incursions. i don't know if it's a full ground scale war, but the taking of gaza city is a remarkably, remarkably content -- complicated undertaking. >> that's right. you really couldn't think of a worse environment to try and take from the outside, and any urban area, and we saw this if you're familiar with mariupol last year, in ukraine. if you're familiar with any of the bottles that are wrought in the major cities. you're looking at really, really complex maneuvers. and they always say in an urban environment, your speed goes down about 90% in terms of your ability to advance in the city

versus open ground. it could go on for a very long time, depending on what the objectives are. you can tell they're doing the initial stages of siege warfare, they've asked civilians to leave over the last 48 hours. you noted at the start, there's lots of drone noise, lots of jet fighters overnight. that's likely the reconnaissance for what they're trying to determine, which is where those hamas militant hotspots inside -- that they want to focus on. separately, i wouldn't be surprised if through the last couple of days small patrols or you are the operations, reconnaissance -- are already moving in and around gaza, trying to get a handful on two things. where hostages might be, that would be a separate operation. they would likely get those hostages out if they could, and then second, where should they look for how they're trying to take this city over the next days, weeks, months, whatever it might be. the other part that i think is quite interesting and start is reports up and around the

northern border. the big question is, will his blood get engaged? it's a very different fight than what's going on in gaza, so you'll see lots of armor units, you have some artilleries, self propelled artillery images up there. that's a very different battle up to the north, should it erupt. and so they're probably positioning forces mostly around gaza, some also to the north. and then i would imagine the israelis would have a sizable, quick reaction from somewhere throat israel, ready to respond to whatever scenario might unfold over the next few weeks. >> you mentioned hezbollah, we were just talking to josh lederman about this. hamas's activities last weekend were a surprise to most people. most people do not think they had that kind of military capability. with hezbollah, which operates outside of southern lebanon and on the northern border of israel, they have absolute military capability. they've waged a war against israel in the past. they have five or seven times the number of rockets and missiles, and their missiles

are real missiles, like guided missiles. so your point here, i just want to underscore that. if hezbollah gets involved in this war, they've been warned away from doing so. but if they do, it's an entirely different thing than what is released potentially fighting in gaza -- so >> that's exactly right. if you rewind, hezbollah was known as the a-team of terrorism. but really, that was almost an understatement. they operate many ways in -- which that is very dedicated as. has the equipment, has the rockets, has the capability due to their support from iran. it's a different kind of organization that israel would be going against, and they did this in 2006. israel was ultimately won that struggled in many ways in that fight. to the south, you're talking about hamas, which has shown increased capability, but it's still that these are small unit fights, these are handmade or localized weaponry, it is not

quite the same as what you would see if has what you square up against israel in the north. >> clinton, i'm gonna ask you the burning question in terms of how did this happen. because as you well know, there have been reports in recent days that both egypt and the united states have at least some intelligence regarding a possible hamas attack, that those governments actually shared with israel. -- coordinated these reports. and that the sharing happened shortly before last week's attack. so what do we know about what those intelligence reports included, and was there anything in them that was out of the ordinary, or alarming to indicate what was to come? >> yeah, we don't have tons of information on what those intelligence reports were. it's also a little confusing inside israel why they were just caught off guard with this. so one thing was through the summer, israel had deployed a lot of forces to the west bank, due to protests and skirmishes that erupted there. i was there at the end of june, and that's where most of the

focus was, which was in the west bank. when looking at hamas, to overriding factors make this logical from their perspective. one is the normalization of relations between israel and saudi arabia. that process and those negotiations have been underway, and put hamas in a very situation, just to understand. there are a sunni military group that's backed by iran. hezbollah is a chia military group that's backed by iran. those are two different entities, and so i'm hamas and its general support is going to be wave it should the normalization of the ties between those two countries come through. it is the 50th anniversary of the yom kippur war, so it's quite stunning that israel would be flat-footed. all terrorist groups are known to launch attacks quite often on anniversaries, or that's why we in new york city ramp up foreign -- after 9/11. because we're trying to watch if there might be something there. the one thing that is tough about understanding hamas

activity is there's always a level of activity, but your signals and indicators are quite different. you might not see people coming up to the border because they're at the border from the start. >> all right, thank you so much. you know what we're going to do right after this break. >> we're going to be talking to somebody from the israeli government about this. somebody who's in the opposition. i think clint's point is really important to underscore, that's a lot of people conflate hamas and hezbollah. hezbollah is made up of xi's. they're both backed by iran, which is a shia countries. hezbollah is a group of shia, they're -- the most important, most powerful sunni country in the world. the idea that saudi arabia is pulling back from its negotiations from israel or its mobilization with israel's geopolitically important. >> you know, i'm going to think a lot of people did learn the distinction. they did that in the iraq war, that's how that was understood.

>> when we come back -- >> we're going to be with somebody who shows the inner working of the israeli government firsthand. we'll be speaking with zippy -- the former israeli foreign minister. stick around, we're watching msnbc. e watching msnbc. msnbc. hungry pets, itchy pets, scratchy pets, and most importantly, your pet. every day great prices and 35% off your first authorship order. right to your door. download the chewy app. just between us, you know what's better than mopping? anything! ugh. well, i switched to swiffer wetjet, and it's awesome. it's an all-in-one, that absorbs dirt and grime deep inside. and it helps prevent streaks and haze. wetjet is so worth it. love it, or your money back. here's why you should switch from chrome to duckduckgo. duckduckgo is a browser you download to your mobile and desktop devices. unlike chrome, the duckduckgo browser has privacy built-in. it comes with a private alternative to google search, which doesn■t spy on your searches, and it blocks cookies and creepy ads. and there's no catch. it's free.

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tzipi livni, the former foreign minister who paid a pivotal role -- in the last two rounds of peace negotiations between israel and the palestinians. she served in eight different cabinet positions throughout her career, including minister of foreign affairs and vice prime minister. she's also a member of the israeli national security cabinet during the second lebanon war against hezbollah in 2006. tzipi livni joins me now. tzipi, it's good to see you again. thanks for being with us. i've been wanting to talk to you to understand, as somebody who's been in negotiations in the past, i just got back from israel and there's certainly no appetite whatsoever nor any potential for negotiations with

hamas. they're essentially never has been. is there anyone to talk to? >> and rightly so. you mentioned before, -- and rightly so. one is shia, and the other is sunni. the common denominator that these groups represent, the -- religious against conflicts are not about national conflicts >> and therefore, negotiations with hamas, hamas is -- there's no hope for peace. i negotiated peace with the legitimate p.a., they represent a national conflict with israel, a difficult negotiation, but hopefully we can reach an

agreement in the future. hummus, hummus can open gaza and get legitimacy. in 2006, after they were elected in the elections in the palestinian authority, the international community, including the u.s., russia, u.n. ands -- the palestinian government can be legitimate, gaza can be open, if they would just renounce violence and terrorism, except the right of israel to exist, except a peace treaty between the two of them. why this is so important? because when we are looking at gaza right now, and we see the situation of the palestinians, they are coming to israel and saying -- so my question today is the only reason that this is

happening to them is because hamas is not willing to renounce violence and terrorism. >> what you, in your negotiations and the others have had with palestinians in the past succeeded in doing was getting the plo, which is a never -- to acknowledge the state of israel and its existence, and to negotiate. but one might argue that over the years the folks who did that have been diminished in favor of hamas. so now you don't have a willing partner in hamas, absolutely. is there a role to be played in making the palestinian authority, what used to be the plo, stronger to be a real negotiating partner with israel? >> i believe that the right strategy for israel and the international community is to the different sides on the same equation. one, to act against hamas, hopefully after this operation they will not have the

capability to act against israel and will not exist as a regime, but on the other hand to strengthen and to work with -- on the palestinian side. those that represent the conflict, but the national conflict -- so this is the right strategy. for the international community, but now frankly we are all focused on the needs to build security to israel, to act against hamas. this is the coming operation, and then believe in hope that in the future will find a way to reach peace, the payload with the p.a.. but hamas is an obstacle we to peace. and this bob stickel threatens not only the life of israelis, but also palestinians in gaza. >> we let's look inside of israel, as you will know, demonstrations were on the rise

in terms of number and tenor. going against the netanyahu government for the most part. do you anticipate any sort of a political cost within the country of israel, once the situation stabilizes? >> well, i was during the first demonstration, i had a vocal voice against what they call the judicial reforms, and frankly i never supported them and i do not support netanyahu as prime minister. and i'm quite happy that -- members of the opposition, that both of them, the chief of staff and the israeli army joined, because this creates more trust in the government. we are all united, we are focused on winning, this is --

and this is what we are doing. but the day after, i'm saying that now hamas needs to pay the ultimate price. but the day after, there are those that are paying the political price. >> and we will have time for that discussion hopefully with you. thank you for bringing -- >> it's not the right -- >> it's not for now, but we appreciate that you bring the texture to the conversation. it's really important to understand. tzipi livni is the former is really -- >> coming, up the israeli military is pouring for the next phase of the war. so what exactly does that look like? we're going to be talking about it, next. 're ingog to be talking abou it, next it, next u forever ♪ hey little bear bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna love you forever ♪ ♪ ♪ c'mon, bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ you don't...you don't have to worry... ♪

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this is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified. they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a chromebook. now they're focused on learning knowing that their data is secure. ( ♪♪ ) (sean) i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro! knowing (jason)eir data isean!ure. do you mean this one - the one with titanium? switch to verizon, you can trade in any iphone, and get the new iphone 15 pro on them. (vo) it's your last chance to trade in any iphone for a new iphone 15 pro on us. only on verizon. >> the israeli military continues to amass troops along the gaza border. this is in anticipation of the next phase of this war. on saturday, israel now must plans to intensify attacks, characterizing it as, quote, integrated and coordinated

attack from the air, sea, and land. on sunday, israel's military again -- 1.1 civilians in northern gaza to evacuate ahead of an anticipated ground invasion. a move condemned by the united nations. meanwhile, the united states is deploying a second aircraft carrier to the region, along with air force fighter jets. this -- defense secretary lloyd austin. >> the move is meant to deter actions hostile to israel, like hamas and hezbollah, and the response or iran, that could potentially wide in the ongoing conflict. with more on all of these developments, we're joined by colin clark, the director of research at the -- and the author of terrorism ink, the financing of terrori insurgency and irregular warfare. he is provided expert testimony for congress on numerous occasions, covering a wide range of terrorism related issues. also joining us today is retired major john spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the -- and the coauthor of

understanding urban warfare. it's going to be a big discussion, colin. we're going to begin with you as i welcome you both. many see iran's hands in this. what implications does hamas's attack have for both regional and international geopolitics? >> thanks for having me. iran is indeed behind a lot of what we are seeing today, and i see mainly the improvement of hamas's capability. hamas functions as part of what i would call a terrorist syndicate, or the axis of resistance, as the iranians would call it. that includes lebanese hezbollah, that includes shia militias and several other groups on the periphery. and we see training and -- as a true force multiplier. it's been 15 years since operation -- and it's clear to me that hamas's capabilities have improved vastly. that leaves me very concerned with what could happen next in this next phase, if the idf does launch a ground assault into gaza. >> john, ali here.

israel has been mourning hamas -- i'm sorry, gazan citizens to get out of the way in gaza city, so that they can go after hamas. if gazans leave gaza city, that takes one level of complication out for the israelis. it creates a whole different one for the gazans who have to leave and find some place to live. but even a gaza city that is largely empty of civilians could still be a death trap for israeli soldiers. >> 100 percent. you can't go in and -- without taking a lot of casualties. historic levels of ammunition, and destroying most of the city. that's a fact based on modern, recent, very recent urban battles. >> let's just talk about what that involves. people have described it as baghdad or fallujah, some people have said mogadishu. in fact, most israelis other than those who have exemptions for religious purposes have served in the army. there's not it is really i spoke to all week who didn't believe lots of his really soldiers would die in this

effort. what is it that their objective would be? >> i think their objective has been very clear, militarily. in the political sense, there are differences. but militarily, it's move into gaza and remove hamas's military capabilities. the tunnels, the rockets, the fighters, and in order to do that you need to have clear terrain. so actually the military mission seems very clear to me. . come >> colin, after seeing the horrific images and the world waking up to a shocking new reality of what was happening there in the middle east last saturday, you still have the actions going forward. should israel take into account all the potential blow back from its bombing of an entire enclave, with over 2 million residents? >> well, that speaks to what john was just referencing, which is the political aspect. and we can go back to -- war is politics by their means.

and unless that political aspect is figured out, we're going to be back here again six months, two years, five years from now. that's a major challenge here. in terms of warfare, i'll be mentioned a couple of analogies. i think we're going to see old school meets new school here. i think this could look like fighting a little bit in grozny and chechnya in the 1990s. but you're also going to have some more modern elements to that with aerial systems, with encrypted communications, with social media posts in realtime. so again, the idf is world-class but this is going to be a challenge for them, make no mistake. >> i have to say, you talk about new technology, i'm still in shock over paragliders going in over the border. i still can't believe that's what we were seeing, right? >> and that does speak to the whole idea of the intelligence failure. i don't know how, because gaza has drones over its all the time. so i don't know how paragliders practiced paragliding. but the israelis that i spoke to were all wondering about the

intelligence failure and what that portends. >> there's so many pieces to that, and i had an article recently laying out the different components about the intelligence failure. some of it was really watching hamas train on the border, and saying we're more interested in economic development. all the political dysfunction within israel, with military readiness being attenuated. it was the perfect storm of events that led to that. my concern is that with that intelligence failure, failing to prepare for the hamas attack, what else don't we know? what don't the israelis know about what awaits them in gaza? that's the major concern right now. >> john, i'm curious what you make of the united states move to send a strike group to the region. the efficacy on a prevention level, and the risk of actual involvement. talk about both. >> i think they're both very serious, and it's a great move by the united states to try to calm the situation. because it does have the

potential of spillover into a much larger conflict. but gaza waged war on israel, israel has the right to respond. but that is a sign of -- two all actors. iran, syria, all others that don't get involved in this. and they keep the lines of communication open, even when there is cross border non state actors backing them, conducting violence against israel. but there is the potential, but in order to have deterrence, you have to have the capability and the willingness to use it. and i think we're sending that message. >> colin, let's talk about something clint mentioned earlier. the word normalization talks between saudi arabia and israel. they were this close to a meaningful deal. saudi arabia has called that off right now. what's the impact of that? >> well, it's tremendous. i think for the biden administration, this was going to be one of their key foreign policy initiatives, especially going into next year. but a lot of people in the middle east and worldwide were kind of anticipating what this next step would look like.

that's totally shelved for the moment, and potentially for the foreseeable future. it's amazing, ali, when you think about the one 80 that we did when you're talking about were on the verge of peace in the middle east to people waking back up and saying we're being dragged backed into the reality that's endured in this region for the past several decades. and it's almost like overnight those hopes crumbled. >> all right, colin clark and retired u.s. army major john spencer, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. >> still ahead, egypt is playing a critical role in the humanitarian situation unfolding in the region. we're going to cairo, next. you're watching special reports on msnbc. ching special report on msnbc on msnbc before planning the big trip you were limping thanks to a bad knee. then, you heard about mako robotic-assisted

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tentative agreement to allow americans safe passage out of gaza into egypt continues to face significant obstacles. the agreement made between egypt and israel and the united states would've let american citizens exit through the border crossing into egypt during a specific five hour window yesterday. but that deadline came and went, and as far as we know, no one was let through. egypt says its side of the border is open, but traffic has been halted in recent days because of israeli airstrikes. however, hamas controls the gaza side of the border, and according to u.s. officials, there's no guarantee that hamas will allow the americans to pass.

500 to 600 americans are said to be in gaza currently, and getting them out remains a top priority for the biden administration. joining us now is nbc's megan fitzgerald. megan, good morning to you. we know the secretary of state antony blinken's meeting right now with the president of egypt. what's the latest on that, and what they're planning to get out of it? >> good morning, good to be with you. as you said, this is absolutely a top priority for secretary blinken to get the four, five, to 600 palestinian americans who want to leave gaza safely out of gaza and into egypt. what we do know is that the u.s. state department has communicated to palestinian americans, telling them if it's safe, to try to go to the southern part of the territory as close as they can to get to the border. because what they suspect here is that if they are able to reach negotiations to open up the border crossing, they believe that it will be a narrow window of time to get those folks across the border and safely into egypt. now, the egyptian president has

said that he is not opening up that border until israel agrees to allow the safe passage of humanitarian aid into gaza. israel has said that they're not doing that until hamas releases the hostages. of course, that has nothing to do with egypt. but keep in mind, we have seen over the past several days, shipments upon shipments of aid coming in to egypt. six planes carrying material, and supplies. a convoy of more than 150 trucks making their way as close as they can to the border crossing. we're talking about everything from medical supplies to food, water, and fuel. because as we know, it's a dire situation inside gaza. i catastrophe, that really is unfolding. people running out of food and water. our producers on the ground saying that people are forced to consume dirty water, water that just isn't clean. we talked to doctors on the

ground in gaza who say that the health care system is on the verge of collapse. they don't have the needed resources that they need to treat the injured. the people that are coming in, and of course we know that the death toll is continuing to rise. surpassing 2300, those who are injured, passing 9000. the majority of those, women and children. so, it certainly is a dire situation. all of this, as they're bracing of course for this ground invasion by the israelis to avenge what we saw. just the unthinkable, scenes from last week. also, it's important to get some more context as well, that across the arab world, there is concern that the israelis are trying to push the palestinians off of their land and into egypt. israel's been very clear in saying, look, that's not the plan here. the plan is very clear. it's to go after hamas, to kill, to destroy, to dismantle hamas. we know that president sissi

here in egypt is now calling for this regional summit of arab leaders to discuss, as he says, that development and the future of the palestinians and the palestinian issue that's going on there. so of course, this is still a very developing and ongoing situation that we're keeping a close eye on. everyone wants to know if and when that border crossing will open. >> it's going to be a very important part of the story, megan, so we'll stay close to you on that if that border opens and americans and other nationals are allowed out. megan fitzgerald and carroll, thank you. >> here's something we've just gotten it. it comes from senate majority leader chuck schumer. he is currently in tel aviv with a bipartisan group of lawmakers, and he says the delegationad to rush to a shelter to wait out rockets se by hamas. and you can see right there, senator mitt romney. he's in the background of that photo. as far as we know, everyone in their is safe, so there's the tweet from the senator. so we are hoping for their safe release.

>> coming up, we're going to speak to someone on the ground in the west bank who has deep connections to both sides of this conflict. we'll be right back. of this conflict. we'll be right back.

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i'm alex, we're here with ali velshi. while the focus has been trained on gaza, there is escalating violence in the west bank as well. as a refresher, the west bank is not in gaza. it's an area on the east of jerusalem, it's on the west bank of the jordan river. it's also occupied territory, and it's a place for more than 100 palestinian towns are separated from one and other, in a movement of palestinians is severely restricted in israel. the u.s. state department expects half 1 million israeli settlers live there to, on settlements that are deemed illegal under international law, which does not permit moving residents into occupied territories and that is where we find our next guest.

-- lives in the west bank, she is jewish. her husband's palestinian, their two children have grown up under israeli occupation. she is the program director and human rights watch, as well as the cofounder of an israeli organization focused on palestinian freedom of movement. sorry, what a life you lead. i could talk to you for a long time about this. but in terms of this particular situation, a lot of attention has been dedicated to gaza. what have the impacts of this war been like on the west bank, where you are. what are you hearing in scene? >> i can't compare what's going on on the west bank with what's going on in gaza, or in israel for that matter. in the sense that civilians of the west bank are still safer than they are in either of those places. but since the october 7th attacks by hamas-led fighters against israeli civilians, things in the west bank have gotten more difficult. so, we're in a time where there

is been already unprecedented violence, in particular, settler violence against palestinians and also some military of violence against palestinians. and prior to this most recent escalation, this year had already ranked as the deadliest year for palestinians in the west bank since the -- so things have gotten worse. first of all, the roads have been more restrictive, more limited. people can't travel between villages or into cities. there have been a number of incidents in which palestinians were shot to death, either by israeli soldiers or by israeli settlers. and there's a lot of fear. because of the level of escalation of violence. the israeli military has also led incursions in two different towns in the west bank, and has shut down businesses that expressed support for the hamas-led attacks. they've also made arrests at night. >> sarah, how much of a tinderbox is this area?

how much worse do you think it could get? >> you know, i think it's really important for people to understand that the horrific attacks of last saturday, they didn't take place in a vacuum. there have been decades of repression of palestinians, by the israeli military. and in the west bank, that mostly is felt by increasing settler violence, forced displacement, taking away of land, and very clear statements by the israeli authorities that they intend to maintain jewish demographic superiority. especially in the areas they control, by bringing in more settlers and pushing palestinians to the margin. in gaza, there's been a punishing 16 near closure that is not allowed people to travel for work, for medical care, to see families, and also crippling restrictions on the travel of goods that has made the economy very difficult, with over 50% unemployment. so these are not good

conditions for a good life, and i think that it's important to recognize that if we want to actually address the root causes of what's going on, we need to look at that as well. human rights watch and other organizations have called this a crime against humanity, of apartheid. because the israeli government has been systematically privilege-ing israeli jews over palestinians. especially through the commitment of the union acts. none of that, in any way, justifies what hamas led fighters did on october 7th. the massacre of civilians can never, ever be justified. and i can say that the massacre that took place on october 7th was unprecedented, in this part of the world. >> i think it's important that you and all of us are able to hold those thoughts at the same time. that nothing justifies or excuses what hamas did. i want to ask you about

movement, freedom of movement. something you think about. your husband and you have different levels of ability to move around the area, because he's palestinian and you are jewish. you used the term apartheid, that's very reminiscent of apartheid. my family is from south africa. can you explain that a little bit? even palestinians going to visit their relatives in other palestinian places in the west bank are restricted. >> sure. so i have an israeli i.d. card, and i meadows really do. which means that i can move and travel pretty freely. my partner has a palestinian i.d. card, so he is not allowed to enter the parts of the west bank that are reserved for israeli citizens, or foreigners, basically. basically, off limits to palestinians. so that means when we go through checkpoints, deep in the west bank, he stays home and i go with my kids. beyond that, he's also usually not allowed into israel. even though he is -- his mother is a palestinian

refugee from what is now israel. so she and her family were kicked out in 1948, and haven't been allowed to come back. and so we would say that in addition to him of course having a right to travel within the west bank, he also should be allowed to return. the reason the israeli government is not allowing the return of refugees or the movement of palestinians, even throughout the west bank, is because it has a stated policy to take over large chunks of land for israeli jews only. and this government has made it clear that it considers all of the biblical land of israel, which includes palestine, to be for the jewish people. and that palestinians can live your a second class citizens, and that's the situation we have. we have one government, which controls about 7 million jews and 7 million palestinians. and it cheats jews very differently than palestinians. i realize this can be difficult for people to understand, but i always think about my daughter. she is nine now, and from one

she was very young, she understood things in a very simple way. she understood that i can travel through checkpoints, and my dad can't. and she understands that jews can, and palestinians can't. and that's the essence of apartheid. it's racial domination, it's discrimination. it's in no way justifies violence against civilians, it's in no way justifies the unspeakable war crimes that hamas led fighters committed against children. against families, on saturday. >> it's extraordinary. you're speaking to parents here, and i know as a mom listening to you, just the complication of going to the park, it is an extraordinary underlining concept. if i think about the life that you're leading, we thank you so much. personally, as program director for the human rights watch. >> you're looking at live pictures of gaza there on the screen, as we're talking -- our coverage of the war continues after this quick break. you're watching msnbc. you're watching msnbc.

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