house, the one that you can see in the video. >> we are so sorry. how is your little niece, 3-year-old, handling this trauma? >> she's probably the most amazing kid in the world, and i'm not saying that because i'm her uncle. it's just an objective feeling. of course she's looking for her mom, and don't know where she is. and actually, she actually knows that she was taken because she was in the situation. they all were taken together, so now after she survived fortunately thanks to my brother's bravery, and i don't know what to say, cold blood, so she's very familiar with the

events. but she still has nightmares and don't know where her mom is at right now. and that's not the only person that she doesn't know where she's at right now because her aunt, caramel, which was playing with her all weekend and every time, and every minute she was in the kibbutz, she was coming to play. and their grandmother that died, but we are not telling her because that's not something that she can take for the moment. and she was really connected to her as well. we're a really close family. >> i know you are. and would you stay in touch, i know we had connective problems from your end, but would you stay in touch. we're out of time on our show, but please let us know and we'll talk to you we hope with better news. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> we want to bring them back, and we want women and children first. anyone that see this need to

remember it's a human thing. it's not a war between two sides. it's a human matter. we need to bring back the girls and the children first. after that the men. i want them back as well. i want all the kibbutz back, i want my family back. we want them all back. it's important for you all to know that. >> let me thank you. >> if you need any further information. >> let me hand it off to katy tur with apologies, obviously we had transmission problems there. katy tur. and thank you, and again, we're going to talk about a hostage negotiation in a moment of the man who has opened a back channel for it. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. families w the rafah border waiting to be left out. it's been more than a day since secretary blinken said the border was going to be reopened

and an exit for duel citizens trying to leave and an entry for truckloads of humanitarian supplies. per reporting from the "washington post," he is finding resistance. while the region doesn't have warm feelings for hamas, there is concern that israel is taking the retaliation too far and that the forced move of more th million gazans is illegal. new reports senioriden administration administrations are warning their israeli counter to show restraint andid mass civilian casualties and a humanitarian disaster that could turn world opinion against the jewish state. it is only been nine days since hamas slaughtered hundreds of people, in some cases brutally torturing them, per witnesses, israeli officials and reporters on the ground who have toured the carnage. the number of dead in israel is

now at 1,400. and the anger and the grief there is still white hot. fueling support for what the government is trying to do to root out hamas, including punishing strikes and a siege that is leaving gaza desperate. >> this is not war. this is kill people everywhere. i see a bomb, i see our houses down. it's not fair. it's not fair. it's not fair. >> but there appears to be near unanimous support in israel to fight back. there's nowhere near unanimous support for benjamin netanyahu. over the weekend in the midst of anguish, there were protests in the street, demanding netanyahu resign and blaming him for the attack. of the hostages of which there are 199, no word an a swap and

no word of an official channel. there is a back channel, one opened by the same man who negotiated the release of the last hamas hostage. gershan backshin says he's in hamas now, and there is a window of opportunity to get some back. let's start first with reporters on the ground. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel is at the israeli-gaza border. with the news in gaza that at least 2,800 are dead, what are you seeing on the build up and what can you tell us about what's happening at the other end, at the border between gaza and egypt? >> reporter: i can tell you here where we are in the last few minutes, there's more fire out of the gaza strip.

there have been rounds coming out of gaza a short while ago, an air alert, and small arms fire here as well. this is very much a fluid situation. going back to the situation at the border between the gaza strip and egypt, it is in one sense a very easy problem, and people have been talking about it, and for the people inside the gaza strip, the solution seems quite easy, egypt should open that border and allow the people to leave, allow the people to come back to the united states, canada, germany, wherever they are from, and age should be allowed to go in. of course this is the middle east, and there's history here, and what you hear from the palestinians more and more is that they believe that with this campaign, israel is trying to empty out the gaza strip, that israel believes that the solution to hamas, that the solution to it's called the

palestinian problem is to evacuate the gaza strip and push all of the people into egypt. and that is why many palestinians are afraid to leave. they're afraid to leave because they could get bombed on the roads, but mostly they're afraid, another reason they're afraid is if they left, they think they could never come back, and there will be another permanent generation of palestinian refugees, another diaspora in the middle east. this isn't just what palestinians are saying, egyptian leaders are saying this, jordanian leaders are saying this. they say that the government in israel has that intelligence, and -- has that intention, and you can see some what seem to be israeli fire into the gaza strip, the northern part of gaza

city, and the arab world is landing on the argument that if egypt opens its doors and allows 2.3 million people to flood into egypt that it would be giving extremists in israel a win by emptying out the gaza strip. that is just what people in the region are saying. it's important to understand the mentality in the middle east of why these population moves are important, and why it is not just for palestinians a simple question of an exodos of refugees. but on an individual level, the people who are standing at that gate, frustrated, tired, hot, many of them went today for the second day in a row. they just want the gate to open. they just want to be able to leave a dangerous place, go into egypt, and then get on a bus and take a plane home. >> a lot of american citizens, the state department estimates, 500 to 600 american citizens in gaza right now. richard engel.

thank you very much. let's go to nbc's raf sanchez from israel. as we were talking, we just got news from secretary blinken's office about what happened to him while he was in a meeting with the war cabinet. the israel's war cabinet in jerusalem, what can you tell us? >> reporter: richard was seeing that rocket fire, we have been seeing it here. in tel aviv they have been seeing it and hearing it. secretary of state blinken was at the israeli defense ministry, meeting prime minister netanyahu, and the war cabinet when the sirens went off. the state department says he spent about five minutes inside a bomb shelter with the prime minister, with the top leaders in israel, which is a pretty striking visual that ten days or so into this bombing campaign that israel has mounted inside gaza, hamas maintains the ability to fire rockets and shoot them as far as tel aviv, which i don't think many people would have predicted.

katy, we were speaking earlier to the red cross, the international committee of the red cross, they tell us they are engaged in face-to-face discussions with senior hamas leaders about the roughly 200 israelis being held hostage inside gaza. as a first step, they are looking to gain access to the hostages. they want to assess what kind of condition they're in physically. are they wounded, do they have medical needs that are not being met. they say they want to be able to carry messages from the hostages to their families and vice versa, and they say ultimately they are hoping to free these hostages, to secure their release. it does not appear at this point, katy, that any of these back channel negotiations be it through the red cross, be it through qatar, other third parties is gaining much traction. but it is obviously one of the many, many complicating factors for the israeli military as it plans this long awaited ground offensive, how do you go into gaza without not just killing a very large number of palestinian

civilians but also without causing any harm to the hostages. >> the question has been asked in israel is what the priority is. are the hostages the priority here or is it just not the normal rules of the game as you said before, raf? >> reporter: it's a very question. the public line from the israeli military, the political leadership, including prime minister netanyahu, is that the hostages are the top priority. israel is determined to get them home. the fact that the ground offensive hasn't yet begun even though there are so many israeli troops amassed at the border is a possible sign that israel has not yet figured out a way to launch a ground offensive without harming the hostages, harming them either in the sense of triggering hamas to execute them or perhaps killing them by mistake with israeli fire. there is a lot of concern, as you can imagine, katy, among the loved ones of these hostages

that if israel in a moment of national reckoning, feeling it has no choice, given the scale of the attack, but to go into gaza, topple hamas, kill its leaders, where that leaves the hostages, where there is any room in that scenario for either a negotiation or some kind of precise pinpoint hostage rescue to bring these people home. it is just not clear at this point. >> the prime minister benjamin netanyahu only met with the families over the weekend, only met with the families and the hostages over the weekend, a week after they were taken. raf sanchez, thank you very much. we've got a lot more on the hostages coming up. first let's go to nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley, who's in tyre, lebanon, for us. matt, another active day where you are. >> reporter: that's right. we have been seeing back and forth shooting. there was at least one death of a civilian on the israeli side, and this is a slow simmer that we have been seeing on the border behind me, just over these hills here. but it could take a mistake.

it could take a provocation of any kind to set this off. you know, we've heard from people describing the war that hezbollah, the dominant military force fought with israel in 2006. they said it went from quiet in a full-on war in a matter of hours. that's what everybody here is so very worried about. but there are other decisions in the offing, other capitals, other places making decisions for hezbollah as well, and i'm speaking specifically of iran, whose foreign minister has been traveling around the region. i spoke with a hezbollah member of parliament, here in lebanon. here's what he told me. so you've heard him talking about the resistance, if you're wondering what this access of

resistance is that he's describing, the ones who are going to be making these decisions, this is a loosely affiliated coalition of different countries and groups like hezbollah, hamas, that are aligned with iran, or under iran's tutelage, and they are also against suni powers, and they are waiting for a decision from iran or within themselves, and from hezbollah's revered leader, to decision whether or not hezbollah is going to go into the war, we can take them at their word that maybe they haven't made a decision yet. when that decision comes, it will probably be based on what israel does in the gaza strip and how hard israel brings the hammer down on hamas. katy. >> everybody is just waiting right now. matt bradley, thank you very much. and joining me next is a member of oxfam. here's what one of her colleagues says she is seeing in gaza. >> continuous shelling

everywhere. but what is more serious is the humanitarian situation. children here are shouting of hunger. there is no food in the market and supermarkets for those families who actually have left their houses in gaza. north gaza. and they are staying, most of them are staying in schools, and the others are staying actually with other people here in the middle area. and number of those families are staying in the streets. so it's a real catastrophe. >> joining us now from the west bank is busha, a policy lead at oxfam, thank you so much for joining us. what is most urgent right now? >> everything is an urgency right now. there's no water. there's no food. there's no electricity. this is my colleague trying to get in touch every day. my family was also displaced to

the middle area. water is a big problem. it's the number one, you know, need for showers, for drinking, for cleaning, for cooking. and water is getting more expensive for how sparse it's become, bottled water, this is of course from witness statements of friends and family that i've spoken to but it's almost six times the price what it used to be, and you can imagine what the prices before this war was in gaza, 80% of people were dependent on aid already. this is like my colleague says, it's a catastrophe. >> you have family there, did i hear you right? >> yeah, my mother-in-law and my father-in-law and my sisters in law, and my nephews and brother-in-law. >> and you haven't heard from them? >> we tried to -- no, we've

heard from them. there's -- gaza has learned, i guess, to adapt to living under blockade and occupation. they have solar chargers, so they're able to charge the phones and give us a call. there's no internet. there's no electricity. it's whenever we get in touch with them. it's almost like waiting for the blue tick on whatsapp, what's what it feels like when they call, and you have to call back. >> i can imagine. the world health organization estimated there's 24 hours left for the hospitals to continue running, and it's a giant catastrophe, lots of people will die if they run out of fuel. >> yeah. i mean, hospitals in the north were asked to evacuate, and they're already overflowing there. as you say, at the collapse in a matter of hours. i mean, bodies are being

refrigerated in trucks because there's nowhere store them or bury them. and the problem also the fact that there's no water, and no medical supplies this leads to, you know, risks of diseases, of infections. the situation is really at the brink of a collapse. >> journalists on the ground have said that ice cream trucks are being used to refrigerate bodies and have been turned into morgues. >> yeah. >> which is just horrifying. let me ask you about all of this aid we're looking at on our screen. this is truckloads of humanitarian aid. egypt has been collecting, flown in all over the world. what does oxfam understand the hold up is at the border? >> our position is that rafah should open and people need to be able to seek safety, but our

first, you know, priority is to of course, you know, monitor our staff, locate our staff. that's our priority as a humanitarian organization. if the parties to this conflict respect international law, people wouldn't have to escape and, you know, be forcibly, you know, pushed out of their homes to find safety, and israel has an obligation to secure the safety. they shouldn't be pushed out of their homes and moved to the south. even the evacuation process towards the south is risky. we've had reports, confirmed reports of air strikes being dropped on civilians on their evacuation booth that was said to be safe by israel. and this forcible transfer is a

serious violation of humanitarian international law and codified as a war crime. >> and i understand the siegeis a violation of international law as well? >> it has been considered illegal, an illegal blockade on gaza. absolutely. >> bushra, thank you for being with us. we hope your family is okay, and we hope you find your loved ones and colleagues as well. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. coming up, we're going to go inside gaza for the rapidly worsening humanitarian crisis as we were just discussing. a back channel to get the hostages out, the man who opened it says there is a window of opportunity to rescue at least some of them. he joins us many a moment. we're back? just 60 seconds. just 60 seconds. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine,

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gazans say they are rationing, avoiding bathing to save water. portioning out their food and minimizing electronics to hold on to whatever battery life they can. sierra strikes destroyed a united nations food warehouse, and the world health organization estimates gaza's last functioning hospitals have 24 hours of fuel to run their generators. sky news special continue diana magnay has more on the serious situation, and her report does contain distressing images of children. >> reporter: the injured keep streaming in. there's been an air strike nearby and the medics are waiting. no sooner has one ambulance unloaded than they must make way for the next. this time, a young man, pulled out of a passenger vehicle unconscious on to a stretcher, israel says this is about

targeting hamas. but even so there are so many more caught in their bombs. young bodies rushed to gaza's overstretched hospitals, which are running out of the means to treat them, just one day of electricity left. >> we're talking about fuel, the whole big system will be shut down. we cannot give the service. the service will be off. the icu they are facing death. >> reporter: hundreds of thousands of palestinians have streamed to southern gaza as per israel's orders, and it is a fight for precious food and water, with humanitarian aid from elsewhere still blocked from enter the strip. >> translator: the situation is tragic, i have seven homeless families at home. i have been here since 7:00 a.m. is this enough for seven families? i'm not here for myself. i'm here to get bread for the children. i cannot eat while watching the events we are witnessing. >> reporter: overnight, hamas

continued to fire rockets into israel, further defiance goading israel on. and this is the consequence. more of gaza turned to rubble as it has been so often before, and yet this time people will tell you that the suffering is worse than what they've seen before. >> translator: this is sham, 8 years old. this is yizram, 7 years old. this is all one family, look how young they are. these are their targets. let america see who they're sending weapons to, the jews to kill children. >> reporter: our film have filmed at the hospital all week. they were there after the bodies were rushed back after a strike on a civilian convoy in which 70 people were killed. israel says they do not target civilians, and this was not them. no one here believes them. >> they didn't hit once so people had time to flea, the bombings were one after the

another. there was no time to flea the area. it was a horror movie. god did not want me to die. i brought everyone on my shoulder. my mother has injuries on her waist. my aunt is injured. my uncle is injured. my whole family are injured. >> reporter: this time israel is promising the deadliest campaign yet. a mighty war, the defense minister says, which will change the situation forever. and how many more will have died when that is done. coming up, my next guest successfully negotiated with hamas for the release of the last israeli hostage that hamas captured. he says he has a back channel, and there is a window of opportunity to get some of them back. what he's offering, next. what ht she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he's a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved.

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why don't you just release the people who were abducted? >> what we want first of all, daily killing. how to stop killing and this is genocide in gaza. it is really genocide in gaza. we have to stop this. maybe after that, we can talk about anything. >> that was gazi, a spokesperson for hamas. speak to go cbs news on sunday and refusing to address the

hostages. who is negotiating the release of the hostages and where does that conversation stand? >> joining us now is gershan baskin for the international communities organization. he initiated the peace negotiations that resulted in the release of israeli soldier gilad in 2011, and he's trying to do the same thing now. thank you so much for joining us. >> you're welcome. >> you say you have opened a back channel, can you tell me about it? >> i'm not negotiating, and i want to be clear here, no one's authorized me to negotiate, and i'm not negotiating. i have talked since saturday to people in hamas. dr. ozzie, is my primary interlock tur, we negotiated deals in 1,027 prisoners from israel in 2011, and i have been speaking to the doctor almost every day, and people in hamas

in gaza and outside. what i have proposed is a small deal, as i call it. the release of women, children, elders, and sick people in exchange for a limited number of prisoners who are in israeli prisons. there are 43 men, and 190 minors, people of 17, 16, 15 years old in israeli prison. s to best of my knowledge, they are from the west bank, not gaza. to the best of my knowledge, none of them have killed israelis, that is doable deal. through the help of two former very senior military security personnel in israel, we have been talking to people in the war cabinet around the table making decisions, and we have indications that a deal like that could be made. so i've been proposing this to dr. ozzie and other people in hamas, and telling them to do the right thing. it is not only inhumane that these holding these hostages, women, infants, babies, old men, a very good friend of mine was a

peace activist, a 74-year-old woman named vivian silver, who was one of the founders of women wage peace in israel, one of the largest peace movements in israel. a friend of mine who was the principals of high school my friend went to had 12 relatives taken from a kibbutz, including a man in his 80s. i'm saying do the right thing. i have tried to engage the qataris, i have a colleague in paris making a phone call, and they were responsive until a couple of days ago. our belief is that our channel has gone official. our belief is that there are talks officially taking place between qatar and hamas, and the americans are playing the other side of the role in transferring messages from qatar to israel. one of the people on secretary blinken's staff, this is convoluted and complicated and needs to be a direct channel between qatar and hamas, and

qatar and israel, and that's what we're pushing for right now. >> israel to the u.s. to qatar to hamas, and back and forth. >> exactly. >> you said there's a window of opportunity. how quickly do you see that window close something. >> i don't know. it all depends on the ground operation. as soon as israel invades with its ground forces, i think it will be impossible to negotiate an agreement. i think at that point, and if you ask me why it hasn't started yet, i think the israelis are collecting information and intelligence primarily from the hamas fighters that they captured inside israel and they're holding prisoners from the horrific attack on saturday. they are collecting intelligence information about the tunnel, the underground city, the tunnels and the military plans of hamas, as well as the possible ideas of where hostages might be held. i will admit, hamas probably had no idea they were going to take so many hostages.

they have a huge logistics problem of where to put them and keep them. the israeli soldier who was held in captivity five years and four months without the israelis ever discovering where he was, this is not going to be the case with the 200 hostages right now. even if they're all spread out and divided up, there's no way of keeping that secret. i would imagine also that the people who are watching them are not the elite forces of hamas. but much lower level soldiers were people holding them. all of those people have to know at the end of the day they're going to be dead, and i would expect some desert their posts, there will be rescue operations, some will be successful. some will be less successful. the window is open as long as the ground operation hasn't begun yet, and that's why there's great urgency. >> when you have spoken to hamas and said what about the prisoners from the west bank, the women and children that we could do a trade for, what was their response?

>> a week ago when they were riding high on their so-called success and the horrible things that they did in israel, they were saying we won't free the hostages unless israel frees all the prisoners in israel. 8,000 prisoners, 550 are serving life sentences for killing israelis. last night, in a conversation with one of the people, they asked me, what about this deal, do you think we can do it? so the tone has changed. they're beginning to assess the situation on the ground. maybe grasping the reality of the situation they're in. for 18 years we've heard the slogan from israel that we're going to remove the heads of hamas and remove them from power. everyone knew they were slogans over the past 18 years. i want to confirm to the people of gaza and hamas it's not a slogan now, this is what israel is planning to do, this is what israel is going to do. i believe that the united states has given a carte blanche to do it. i think that president biden

coming to the region is another message to israel to finish the job this time. finish the job means prevent hamas from continuing to rule over gaza. the tragic situation in gaza of the civilian population, 2.2 million people are suffering horribly, 3,000 people dead. 600,000 people have already lost their home. of course, blame israel for this, but the first address should be hamas. hamas has taken the palestinian cause back 75 years, and what we're witnessing in gaza should have never happened. there was a chance that i've been working on for 18 years of negotiating with hamas for a moe -- living side by side as neighbors, not with peace but long-term understanding of a serious fire, ending the siege, opening gaza. it's a process that should have happened a long time ago. hamad was the person i was trying to do this with over the past two years intensively, they

resisted and refused. even though there was willingness in israel to discuss long-term cease fire and ending the siege, hamas was planning this horrific terrorist attack against israel. >> because israel has said they're going to destroy hamas, and as you say, they're going to do it, what incentive does hamas have to release the hostages, what are they going to get beyond prisoners? if they're fearful for their ability to govern, put it in quotes, govern, and their own lives, why would they have motivation to negotiate period? >> i have been honest that this is their end, but i said the taking of hostages, women, children, is against islam. you're supposed to be a religious muslim movement. you believe in the quran, you believe in allah, this is not

what it's about. it's not what is in the quran. do the right thing. at least free the women, the children, the elderly and the sick. at least that. >> gershon, you're a peace negotiator. i want to ask you about what happens after this, if israel is successful in rooting out hamas, and that's still an if, what comes after that? how can these two people live peacefully next to each other in the months and years to come? what's the solution? >> i want to say two things. i think it's early to talk about solutions, but i think that what israel needs to do and prepare is that on the day that the war is completed and israel finds itself reoccupying gaza, that it announces the date it's planning to leave gaza and immediately, even now, they should be planning the structure, the architecture for turning gaza over to the civilian population, for working with our neighbors, egypt and jordan and saudi arabia, and the emirates and

bahrain, and the others and the european union and the united states, to build, rebuild a peaceful gaza. there are intelligent people in gaza. there are people who want to live a better life, there are people who don't support hamas, and have never supported hamas. i know this is going to be enormously difficult to do, particularly after this horrible war and the occupation by israel. by the second thing i want to say is that i'm hoping that we israelis and palestinians will have what i have been calling our belfast moment, the moment when we wake up from the horrors of this war and 75 years of killing each other and saying enough. and this will have to be the civilians, the civil society. not our governments. our governments have to go. the israeli government, all of those who hold responsibility not only for the intelligence and military failure but for the conceptual failure of believing we can hold more than 2 million people under siege for 18 years and believe that we can have peace or for people who believe that we can occupy the west bank

and east jerusalem and prevent palestinians from having freedom and liberation and believe that they will accept that and live under our rule forever. those people who have pushed these conception and have ruled us for too many decades have to go, and the palestinian leadership, which is old and corrupt, and not elected. mahmoud abbas, i think he's done good things is 87 years old and in the 18th year of a four-year term. it's time for palestinian young people to stand up with a new vision, a new hope and a new dream, and i hope that we can take this moment after the war to recognize that we won't forget. we will remember. we will each have our narrative and our story, but we will look forward and say no more. enough. >> so that generations to come will not be experiencing the same thing as the generations in the past. gershon baskin, thank you very much. in the news you made here, you believe your back channel with hamas is an official channel

between the u.s., the qataris, israel and hamas. >> the united states needs to tell the qataris, there's a u.s. military base in qatar, the united states needs to tell the qataris, they have two days to release the hostages and if not, the hamas leadership in qatar should find another home. >> they do have a station there in qatar as well. gershon baskin, thank you very much, we appreciate it. do come back. >> thank you. we're going to make a hard right turn. can jim jordan convince his holdouts or will the republicans have to make a deal with democrats as a unity leader as one house committee member is warning. one house committee member is warning.

on capitol hill, republican nominee for house speaker jim jordan is trying to convince his holdouts to make him speaker,

and he's having some success, but will it be enough to win tomorrow's scheduled vote on the floor? joining us now from capitol hill is "punchbowl news" cofounder and msnbc news political contributor, jake sherman. i have two questions for you. one of them, where does jim jordan stand, and number two, i think it was mike mccaul saying if we don't find a speaker soon, we're going to have to go to the democrats. >> number one, i don't know in jim jordan has the votes but he has made massive strides toward the speakership. he has locked up mike rogers, the chair of the house armed services committee, ken calvert who runs the defense appropriations subcommittee, anne wagner, a scalise alley, vern buchanan, a scalise ally. people who feel he undercut calise are rushing to jordan's

side. there were a lot of people who thought jordan would be bad for defense, and now they're giving him validation, saying they're on his side and pushing him closer to the speakership. number two, the idea that democrats are going to be involved is a fantasy. mccaul said i think as a warning of sorts that republicans need to get many gear, but now jordan is on the brink of the speakership, and the interesting thing to see, katy, nothing is certain in this place. you and i have been on tv together for five or six years talking about how nothing is certain in this place, but jordan, the odds are he's going to get the speakership tomorrow, not certain, the odds are he's going to get the speakership tomorrow. the interesting thing to see will be whether democrats think jim jordan measures up to kevin mccarthy, mccarthy, despite his shortcomings, was somebody who gave them the time of day, met

with them, gave them a heads up on issues. jim jordan is a hard liner, he says what he means, doesn't equivocate, and democrats will have to retrospectively look back and see if it made sense to vote to vacate mccarthy. i think a jim jordan speakership is going to be significantly more challenging for house democrats. >> it's been eight years, jake, our eight-year anniversary is coming up in january of having these conversations on this show about what's going on on capitol hill, and the other question that we can't get into now is what would a jim jordan speakership mean for the front liner, people, i don't know, republicans who won in a place like new york, to new yorkers like jim jordan. jake sherman, we're going to leave it there. thank you, my friend. coming up next, what the u.s. is privately warning israel not to do. nbc's foreign correspondent courtney kube joins me with her

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president biden has said he fully supports israel, but he's drawing one line publicly, telling "60 minutes," he does not support another israeli occupation of gaza. >> what happened in gaza, in my view, is hamas and extreme elements of hamas don't represent all the palestinian people. and i think that it would be a mistake for israel to occupy gaza again. >> do you believe that hamas must be eliminated entirely? >> yes, i do. but there needs to be a palestinian authority. there needs to be a path to a l. >> nbc news is also reporting that the u.s. is drawing private lines for israel as well. joining us now with that reporting is nbc's courtney kube

at the pentagon. courtney, walk us through what you have been able to learn. >> reporter: there's been the very public facing messaging out of the biden administration, from president biden himself, then of course secretary of state antony blinken who has been engaged in this diplomacy throughout the region, and secretary of defense, lloyd austin. it's a message that israel has the right of self-defense and that the u.s. will do pretty much anything to support them in that effort, in that self-defense effort. now, behind the scenes, what we have been together according to a number of current and former officials, they are urging some restraint, and that includes allowing civilians and specifically americans, allowing them out of gaza, getting them out of harm's way, and trying to ensure that civilians are given some sort of safe passage. i will say, we have heard a little glimmer of some of this in the public messaging, specifically from secretary blinken and secretary austin, when they have talked about the need for both sides to adhere to the law of war.

secretary austin, in fact, was asked specifically about the israeli defense forces, the irk df, and he really praised them. he said he believed that the israelis would adhere to that and recognize the importance of ensuring civilians are safe. one of the other messages we get is this comparison to hamas and isis, trying to drive home one of the points that we just heard there from president biden, the idea that not all palestinian people, not everyone in gaza is a part of hamas or believes in the ideology of hamas. that's one of the reasons officials we've spoken with are saying they're really trying to paint hamas like isis, who's known around the world and specifically at home, a brutal terrorist group. >> courtney kube, thank you very much. >> and joining us now is former deputy national security adviser in the obama white house and msnbc contributor, ben rhodes, thank you for being here with us. in looking at these private

lines, red lines the urgings the u.s. is making toward israel, how delicate is it? because on the one hand, they ever to remain publicly supportive of their very close ally, but also, if the world turns against israel, it's not exactly helpful. >> no, that's right, katy. knowing a lot of people in the administration well, they generally subscribe to the belief and joe biden certainly does that you hug israel in public, have its back globally and diplomatically, while you have these areas of potential divergence in private. i think it's likely that the u.s. has accepted that there's going to be some significant israeli ground invasion of gaza, but people should bear in mind that that can be dialed up in different directions, right? so there's the question about is the ultimate objective to completely reoccupy gaza, and you have heard president biden caution against it. there's also the question of during that kind of military

operation and preceding it, is there going to be a capacity to get people out through that rafah border crossing and a capacity it to surge humanitarian resources into gaza. they have cut off siege, generally electricity, food and water, at times, the water turned back on. what can be done to mitigate the humanitarian catastrophe in gaza. during an israeli military operation. i think that's clearly part of the conversation that is taking place behind closed doors. >> is it a mistake for israel not to go to the u.n. and try to rally support there, even if they get vetoed by russia or china? >> i think israel sees the u.n. as a waste of time as a foreign that is often hostile towards them. i do think, though, there are some diplomatic avenues that could be explored, you know, in tony blinken's trip, i'm sure

obviously part of the conversation was on hostage releases as you've covered. i'm sure part of the conversation was on getting humanitarian support into the people of gaza. i think there's also a conversation to be had here for those arab countries that don't want to see a big gaza board that could escalate in a conflagration with hezbollah on the west bank. there's also the question of what kind of resources are you willing to put on the table to help develop that alternative palestinian leadership, to help create a different future in gaza. i think there are global and regional dimensions that israel can explore even as they are intent on going forward with an operation against hamas. now, oftentimes, katy, the u.s. is kind of something of a representative for israel, a bridge to conversations, you know, as the israelis are focused on the near term military objective. tony blinken can shuttle back and forth. i think that's also part of what's happening here is the u.s. being something of a

sounding board in israel, and then among our allies and among our arab partners about what else could be done to minimize the risk of escalation, to minimize civilian harm in gaza, while understanding that israel is intent on doing something here to defend itself. >> we only have a little bit of time left. do you think that the conversation is also regarding what happens next and whether israel gets support from the qataris, saudi arabias, i don't know, the egyptians, trying to prop whatever comes next up in gaza? because i'm sure, israel doing it alone is not exactly going to be accepted. >> that's exactly right, and that should be part of it. what the arabs will say is the bigger this invasion is of gaza, and the more palestinians killed, the harder it's going to be to do anything like that. their public opinion is going to be inflame bid the images coming out of gaza. that's why this is tricky and the u.s. may be counseling restraint.

you have high ground and goodwill here, you want to make sure you can leverage that in not just the near term but the long term. >> ben rhodes, thank you very much for joining us. appreciate it. the in the next hour, the protests against benjamin netanyahu, plus, what is happening on the israel gaza border from a member of the idf who will join me. don't go anywhere. ere. theo's nose was cause for alarm, so dad brought puffs plus lotion to save it from harm. puffs has 50% more lotion and brings soothing relief. don't get burned by winter nose. a nose in need deserves puffs indeed. america's #1 lotion tissue. (all) ♪ toooo youuuuu! ♪ a nose in need deserves puffs indeed. (sean) i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro! (jason) sean! do you mean this one - the one with titanium? (sean) no way i can trade this busted up thing for one. (jason) maybe stealing wishes from the birthday boy is not your best plan -- switch to verizon and trade in any iphone and get the new iphone 15 pro on them.

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