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you get a second line free. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. it's happening. good to be back with you, for another hour. i'm katy tur. palestinian americans are waiting to hear word on an escape route. u.s. officials were hoping egypt's rafah border could be open for a few hours today to allow those with foreign passports out. that has yet to happen, so the bottleneck is getting bigger down there on the gaza side, and the egypt side where hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid is waiting to get in. what is the hold up? because the situation in gaza is bad in the north and south where rescuers have been pulling

bodies from piles of rubble. medical aid is needed. food is needed. water is needed. and it could be about to get even worse. we keep saying that. as the idf prepares for a ground invasion, fueled by the immense horror of what happened nine days ago, the slaughter and sometimes torture of hundreds in israel, including children. how far is the military willing to go, and what will did mean for international support. nbc news is reporting the u.s. is privately drawing some red lines for israel. what exactly are there. also, what could a ground mean for hostages. we spoke to a man with a back channel, he says he believes it's now an official channel. we're getting word from the red cross which tells nbc news they are holding face-to-face meetings with senior hamas officials. joining us now, is nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez, let's start there.

what is the red cross telling us. >> reporter: as you said, they say they are having direct talks with senior hamas officials in gaza and they're trying to get access to these hostages as a first step, they want to assess these people's physical condition. they want to see what kind of medical condition they are in, are they they say, ultimately, the goal is to try to secure their release. they would not go into detail with us about where those conversations with hamas are. we don't have the sense that back channel negotiations have got to a substantial stage, but the red cross says it is prepared to play the role it has played for 100 years now since the first world war, which is going back and forth between the warring sides. they say they would like to be able to pass messages from the hostages to their families and vice versa. we also just spoke to a doctor, the head of the medical committee at this hostage family forum. this is a kind of umbrella group representing the families of the hostages, and katy, he laid out

for us just the range of medical conditions that these 200 people in gaza have. it is everything from a nine-month-old baby who needs the kind of food that a nine-month-old baby needs to an 85-year-old woman who needs her parkinson's medicine. there are people there with diabetes who need insulin. there is a young woman who has autism to needs special care, special treatment. she, as you can imagine is very very susceptible to over sensation. you can only imagine what that young woman is going through now, the sense of fear, the sense of disorientation being kept presumably in a small space by people she doesn't know. and this doctor is pleading, obviously they want the hostages released but accepting that that may take a while, he's pleading with hamas to allow the red cross to get access to hostages to assess their medical needs

and get them the treatment they need. >> we have been waiting for a ground invasion, could part of the delay in build up be because they are trying to figure out something with the hostages? >> reporter: yeah, it absolutely could be. this would be a fiendishly complicated military operation at the best of times, urban warfare, one of the most densely populated places on earth, the whole world watching, huge amounts of concern for palestinian civilian, but on top of that, this question of how do you invade gaza. how do you drop extraordinarily powerful weapons from the air, how do you send ground troops in without harming the hostages, and both in the sense of leading hamas to murder them, but also killing them accidentally. the israeli military says it is doing everything conclude to get these people back. it says that they have sent small covert teams over the border into gaza to try to gather whatever information they can. but right now, it is not at all clear how by force they plan to get these people back. >> raf sanchez, thank you very

much. and joining us now is nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley, i know there's been an exchange of fire at the border near you. what can you tell us about the red lines that hezbollah is drawing? >> reporter: just in the past 24 hours we have heard there was a civilian on the israeli side who was killed. before that, there were two civilians on the lebanese side, a man and wife who were killed. we're seeing what looks like an uptick in violence in the tit for tat fighting. we don't know what the red line is. this is a situation that looks like it has been on a simmer for the past week, and it could boil over if anybody makes a mistake. if there's deliberate provocation. hezbollah looks like it's not necessarily in the business of deliberately provoking, though that is what israel has said they are planning on doing. it looks like hezbollah is waiting for some sort of decision from someone. maybe from its revealed leader, hasan nasrella, possibly from

iran, their main benefactor. i spoke with a member of the parliament here in lebanon who is a member of hezbollah. a hezbollah representative in parliament. here's what he told me when i asked him if the people of lebanon are afraid of american naval assets that are parked in the eastern mediterranean just off my left shoulder. >> t shoulder >> . [ speaking in global language ] >> reporter: you can see, he was a little bit cheeky, he laughed

in my face when i asked him the serious question about the american power parked off the coast. it was a little bit odd of a response, but the fact is he then told kind of a history story, and that's a story that has a sinister end. he was referring specifically to what happened 40 years ago next week when there was a bombing of u.s. marines, a barracks in beirut that killed nearly 150 u.s. military personnel. so you could call it bombast or bluster, but he was referring to a very specific incident that checked u.s. power in the region and humbled american, you know, overtures toward intervening in another conflict, 40 years ago, now the same thing is happening again. there's a u.s. aircraft carrier parked right off the coast, threatening hezbollah and any other regional actor that might intervene to people like hezbollah, to people like this man. that doesn't look like peace keeping. that looks like provocation, katy. >> matt bradley, thank you very

much. and joining us now is msnbc host, ayman mohyeldin, you have been covering this conflict, the region now for two decades, you know a lot about it. i'm still interested in learning a little bit more about what egypt is doing, and how much control they have over the rafah border and the humanitarian aid coming in. >> it's safe to say they have complete control over the border because of the nature of the war. if this was a peacetime conversation it would be a little bit different, the israelis, europeans, the u.s. would have a lot of interest in knowing what egypt does with who it lets in and out. now it's different. the egyptians are looking at this from a few different perspectives, economic interests, humanitarian arrests and principled interests. the calculation from the international community is about the humanitarian. egypt wants to try to alleviate pressure inside gaza. they want to get aid inside of gaza. they would rather have aid going

into gaza than people coming out of gaza. if you have a sudden influx of hundreds of thousands of palestinians, you are opening yourself to a lot of other problems, security problems in egypt, and what that might mean. >> what do you mean by security problems? >> you don't know if people coming out of gaza include hamas fighters, you don't know what the hundreds of thousands of people inside the peninsula would do with refugees, and not like any friction but certainly it's just a lot of people to have under your control suddenly at any given moment there's a broad security concerns for the egyptians. the humanitarian side, egypt is concerned if they take in hundreds of thousands of refugees there's no guarantee they would be allowed back into gaza. >> explain that to me. they don't trust if the palestinians leave they would be allowed to go back to their land. why wouldn't that? >> history has taught them a painful lesson, the arab world

has seen what happened in 1948 when 700,000 palestinians were displaced or fled the war in 1948. lebanon, jordan, elsewhere, they were never allowed to return back into modern day israel or the west bank and other palestinian areas. that has really been part of the generational trauma of palestinians who have learned if they leave their land and there's no guarantee they will go back, they may be the third generations of palestinians displaced as a result of that. the term being used in the arab world is not refugees and evacuation, it's being described as a transfer of palestinians, population transfer. it gives you a sense of the concern countries like egypt and others have about large displacements. >> we had gershon baskin who helped negotiate for gilad shalit many years ago. he says he's open to back channel with hamas and had good conversations with them, and he

believes a back channel has gone official. he believes the qataris are talking to hamas, then talking to america who is talking to israel so it's a bit of a chain. what role does qatar play? how come they have influence, and whags the leverage they might have over hamas? >> qatar plays an important role. as we have seen from other conflicts in the region, afghanistan or elsewhere, they always keep a diplomatic channel that works to america's advantage. even more recently with iran, for example, the $6 billion that was going to be transferred to qatar. the foreign policy has been to be a conduit for the intersection of western interests and other adversaries, iran, the taliban, and hamas. and because hamas's political leadership is mostly in do ha, they have tried to be the conduit between hamas senior political leadership, and what they want to do, what's the ultimate objective, what is it going to take to get you to free the hostages. because they have the trust, the relationship, the track record

of supporting hamas or transferring money for humanitarian purposes, hamas trusts them. if america says we will or we can do x, that hamas and they will be able to get hamas to do. >> they could potentially kick hamas. they have a headquarters there. >> the political bureau of hamas, some of the senior members are in doha. they may not officially say that. for the past several years they have been there in proximity to where america is, where iran is. it's a place where unofficially these negotiations take place, these kinds of transactions take place, and we'll see if that investment bears fruit this time around. >> ayman mohyeldin, it's really good to have you on, your experience in the region is frankly unparalleled, i appreciate it. we also have very sad news to report and get you up to speed on. the funeral for 6-year-old

wadyea, is going on in new york. he was stabbed to death in his home by his landlord, along with his mother who was seriously injured and remains in the hospital. authorities believe the mother and son were targeted because of their muslim faith and the ongoing situation in israel, calling it a senseless and cowardly act of violence. the doj is also opening an investigation into a hate crime. coming up next, the unimaginable task of searching for the bodies of civilians killed in this war. we're back in 60 seconds. in 60s

. volunteers for the israeli emergency response team were the first to arrive at the music festival turned massacre where israel says at least 260 people were killed. they are the team that has to go in after an attack, locate the dead, and help ensure they

receive a dignified burial. nbc news chief correspondent stewart ramsey shadowed them, and we will warn you that some of the images shown are graphic but are disturbing. >> they're still finding the bodies of the victims of the hamas attack over a week ago. the organization that retrieves the remains of the dead say the latest person to be found at the kfar kibitz has been beheaded he's never seen anything like this. the sheer brutality of hamas has stunned his entirety. >> we're talking about a total of i would say about 280 bodies, 280 casualties. i would say 80% was tortured.

80% was tortured, and you're talking children, adults, children, when you're talking piles, piles of ten children each were tied to the back, burned to death. this is something beyond, this is next level. >> reporter: it's actually indescribable, really. >> it's indescribable. and i won't describe everything that i saw. >> reporter: we joined him after the military called zaca to take more bodies away. this time, hamas gunmen. a soldier stops us, he says it's too dangerous to continue.

yoss wants to pick up the bodies. eventually they agree a digger will go forward and pick up the dead. we take another route. >> how often do they find bombs and have to stop you from work something. >> all the time. all the time. almost every time. >> reporter: have they been left on purpose? are they booby trapped? >> yes, they trap the bodies. >> reporter: the dead fighters are gathered together and placed in body bags. members of the team mark the bags with an x, designating they aren't civilians but the bodies of the killers themselves. they are still finding the bodies of civilians in this kibbutz. this is the recovery of the hamas attackers, and they were killed here. it's interesting, but it's really dangerous here. we're right on the front line with gaza. soldiers have told us to come back and stay in this area because there's a direct line of

sight. there are missiles coming in. there were three shortly before we arrived. and there are booby traps, many of the bodies have been booby trapped. it's a very dangerous and pain staking operation, one week on. they already know their teams are suffering extreme psychological stress. the families have been briefed to pass up the lines of the loved ones behaving abnormally. humanely retrieving the very people who carried out the attacks is itself tough to do. is it difficult to actually recover the bodies of hamas men who have carried out a massacre? >> very difficult. it's very difficult for us when we know that each of them killed our brothers and sisters and tortured the people and that's what -- they came in for that,

and still we have to handle it. >> reporter: what's clear is that the hamas rampage of terror changed from location to location, sometimes they just murdered people. but when they had time, they tortured, maimed and killed men, women and children. the killers' removed by a bulldozer. coming up, what is the idf waiting for at the gaza-israel border and does the delay have anything to do with a negotiation for hostages? we're going to get reaction from an idf spokesperson after the break. df spokesperson after the break. (all) ♪ toooo youuuuu! ♪ (sean) i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro! (jason) sean! do you mean this one - the one with titanium? (sean) no way i can trade this busted up thing for one.

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we make money from ads, but they don't follow you around. join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on mobile and desktop today. the gaza-egypt border is still closed, meaning no duel citizen palestinians can get out and no aid can get in. president biden says the u.s. is working on it with both israel and egypt. >> our team is talking with them about that, and whether there could be a safe zone. we're also talking with the egyptians, whether there's an outlet to get these children and women out. >> so you do not agree with the israeli total siege of the gaza strip? >> i'm confident that israel is going to act under the rules of war. >> joining us now is idf

international spokesperson lieutenant colonel jonathan konarikis. i want to ask you about something we saw a moment ago, a number of fuel trucks leaving gaza and into egypt. do you have any idea what they're going there for? >> if they're fuel trucks, one could understand that they are about to pump fuel, but i am not aware of any such reports, and i cannot confirm them. >> as for the border itself, would israel continue a cease fire for a few hours to allow aid to get in and also citizens to get out, dual citizens? >> we have already tried this, together with the u.s. and egypt. we tried this two and a half days ago in the rafah crossing in the south. we provided the necessary cover for it and seized operations in that area.

but hamas refused to open the gate. i don't know what hamas concerns were and why they didn't do so, but factually, they refused to open the gate and the crossing didn't materialize. >> so this is hamas stopping it, not egypt or israel, is what you're saying? >> as far as i know, yes. and hamas has been stopping palestinian civilians from evacuating in the north because they want them to stay there to be used as human shields. it's common behavior here, what hamas does, abusing everything humanitarian for military purposes. >> let me ask you about an air strike from a few days ago, and this has been brought up quite a few times about concerns for those leaving and fleeing. they're saying as they're fleeing, they're being hit by israeli strikes. there was one that killed 70

people on friday. what was israel targeting there? were they targeting the convoy? >> your question in first that it was israel. it wasn't. and up until now, we have said clearly after we investigated it and looked at the very sketchy information coming out of the gaza strip, some of it partially very journalists but nothing more than that. we have said categorically, clearly, that we did not strike any convoy of civilians or any civilian vehicles, and that we believe that this was an act by hamas in order to stop civilians from going south, and a propaganda misinformation campaign against israel. >> as the civilians go south, how can you ensure that hamas fighters are not going alongside them? >> we can't, unfortunately. but that's something that's a military prize that we are

-- price that we are unfortunately willing to pay because we want civilians out of the battlefield. we know hamas are cowards, they hide under the civilian population. when the going is tough, they drop their weapons, try to look like civilians, and embed with the civilian population. that's documented behavior of hamas, nothing new, and they're not different from other terrorists, but our aim here is to totally dismantle hamas and its military capabilities, that won't be quick. there will be locations where they'll be able to regroup and get away, but at the end of this war when everything is said and done, hamas will never ever be able to threaten israeli civilians and conduct the gruesome attacks they did nine days ago. >> if they're retreating with civilians? how do you pursue them? how do you avoid civilian casualties if they're embedded in the population and continuing

to move? how does the battlefield not move with them? >> right. what we're doing, the next stage of operations is clear and evident for everybody who has been following is obviously gaza city. gaza city is really the center of gravity of hamas, it's the most important city in the gaza strip of course, and it's the center of gravity for hamas from a military and administrative point of view. and that's what we're going for. we are going for their assets, their infrastructure, their rocket launchers, their logistics, commanders and operatives. right now, most, according to what we know, most of hamas so called fighters, even though fighters are supposed to fight and not hide in tunnels, most of the so called fighters are towering underground in tunnels they have built for themselves, which by the way, they're not allowing the civilians to use, and once other significant military operations start, we will get to them as well.

at the end of the process, and that's, again, i go back to this, hamas will never have the ability to threaten israeli civilians again, and, you know, if you look at the future, i think it will be much better for gaza as well, to have a gaza that is no hamas in gaza because almost 20 years of hamas rule in gaza, nothing but poverty, despair, mismanagement, violence, crime and war and no hope for the future, and this will change that. >> do you have an update on the hostages for us? >> sadly, today, a total of 199 israeli families have been notified that their loved ones are being held hostage by hamas. we have added quite a few. the last update was 155. there's a tremendous intelligence effort ongoing, where we're connecting intelligence from many many sources, analyzing it, piecing

together this hundred pieces of puzzle in order to understand who has been taken, and of course in the future to understand where they are, and eventually bring back our people. >> do you know of any negotiations for them that are currently happening? >> not that i know, and, you know, a lot -- many many lives in gaza could be saved if hamas immediately, unconditionally would return the hostages and surrender, all of the military commanders, all of the military of hamas, the entire organization, if they surrender unconditionally, and bring back the israeli civilians and soldiers they took, many many lives could be saved in gaza, and anybody who cares about life in gaza and wants to ask questions about humanitarian aspects et cetera, that should be a realistic thing to think about because that would save

lives. >> if hamas does leave or if you are able to root them out, the question is what happens -- surrender. we're not talking about terrorists going to a temporary vacation in some safe haven in qatar. we're talking about dead or surrender. >> if they surrender or you are able to root them out, i have the question of what happens next, and can you categorically say israel will not reoccupy gaza? >> yes, as far as i know, no such intention, we are not looking for real estate. we're not looking for anything in gaza. israel has been out of gaza strip for almost 20 years, and i don't know of any claims, and that's definitely not any objective that has been defined to us, to the military. we are fighting against an aggressor, a ruthless terrorist organization that attacked us and started this war with barbaric atrocity. we're responding to it, and we

understand that we have to fundamentally change the situation for the better, for us, first and foremost, for our civilians, all of israel, and as a secondary effect, i think that the situation will also be veteran gaza. but our business is taking care of our civilians, our sovereignty, our civilians that were butchered by hamas, that's why we're fighting. >> hamas, and other arab countries in the region will say that israel is trying to move them off their land and not allow them back. can you say, and this is part of the reason why they're saying to some of the people in the north, don't go anywhere, can you say that if they do leave that they will be able to come back? >> i'm not going to all in stage. we're in war, the only thing i can say is if you care about your life, if you want to live, go south to the designated area, and once things are safe, we will tell you it's safe, you

will be able to return. we said that in the initial press release. it should be clear. the bottom line is hamas uses the civilians as human shields, they want them in the battlefield, they want them to be there so that they can be killed, for this to be spoken about in international media and diplomacy. that's how vile and ruthless they are. that is reprehensible and we shouldn't play along that game of hamas misinformation and propaganda and cynical use of civilians. >> lieutenant colonel, thank you very much for joining us. we do appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. coming up next, is there any diplomatic way out of this war? a palestinian ambassador to the u.n. joins me. don't go anywhere. oins me. don't go anywhere.

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the u.n. secretary general warns that the middle east is, quote, on the verge of the abyss. antonio guterres has called on hamas to release hostages, and for unimpeded access to aid. trucks filled with aid wait over the rafah border crossing as th two draft resolutions to meet growing needs. joining me is deputy permanent observer of the state of palestine to the united nations. mr. ambassador, thank you very

much for joining us. what is your top concern right now? >> to stop the bombs. gaza is collapsing. the health system, the humanitarian system, the only way to save lives is to stop israel from dropping the bombs, to allow humanitarian access, and stop the forced transfer of people. >> do you see a diplomatic solution to this after what hamas did to israel? >> listen, we had thousands of palestinians killed over the years, and we saw all countries come to us and say, don't respond with violence. show restraint. we need to find a peaceful path forward. you can't allow for the response to be killing more palestinians. that's not going to be an answer. that's not going to allow us to go forward. the people in gaza, there are 2 million people. 3,000 have been killed. now, a thousand child, over half are women and children. how is that helpful for anyone? did that make israel more safe to continue killing palestinians? >> what is the diplomatic

solution, other than stopping bombs, how do you -- it's got to be more than that? >> of course. you need them to end the occupation and allow for two states to live side by side in peace and security. the palestinians cannot be told they will never be free, this is their destiny to be displaced, possessed, deprived of their rights forever. we want to see a reality where no palestinians are killed, and no israelis are killed, that is the responsible attitude but we heard a lot of speeches about unconditional support. the only thing that deserves unconditional support is international law, it's the protection of civilians, it is peace. these deserve unconditional support. israel interpreted these messages as a license to do what it's doing now, so now we have a bit more clarity in the rhetoric. we're still waiting for people to say stop the assault, cease fire. we're awaiting important capitals including this one, to bring in this message, and then to say there must be a different path for all of you.

>> if there's a different path, can that path be forged with hamas in power? >> so i don't think the question is hamas. again, i saw the israeli officials come to you and say, palestinians are being killed. that's hamas's fault. you're dropping the bombs, take responsible for your actions. if we were killing israelis, you wouldn't allow us to get away with any pretext for killing them. you are killing entire families. entire families, grandchildren, children, parents, grandparents, obliterated from earth. that cannot be justified. you have a peace partner that has been waiting to make peace with you. 17 years of blockade. 55 years of military occupation. 75 years of dispossession and conflict. and we came, while palestinians are being killed, and we're saying we're ready to find a way for peace based on international law and u.n. resolutions. >> i want to ask you again, can that be achieved with hamas in power? israelis will concede some that

maybe it can't be achieved with benjamin netanyahu and the far right in power. they will say that's not possible, and that needs to change. does the governing body of gaza need to change to achieve peace between the two places, the two peoples? >> the palestinians can negotiate on their behalf tomorrow. sure, the palestinians, there is a peace deal. let them have that choice. give them an alternative. >> will hamas allow that? >> give them an alternative. let the israelis say they are ready to end their occupation. let them say they are ready to have a palestinian state. they're ready to comply with international law. again, we can find pretext, i can say the israelis are doing this, therefore i have nothing to do with it, and that's their problem. we have a responsibility toward our peoples, you want to protect your people, i want to protect my people, the way to do is it to have peace. we're not the supremacist thinking, we have equal right to

freedom, dignity and security. i have heard that a lot. it's time to implement it. israeli lives are worthy. everybody understands, everybody presents their condolences, everybody comes and shows sympathy and says now you have the right to do whatever you see fit, and what about palestinian lives, who's going to save them? that cannot be a response to just say palestinian lives are less worthy. you can kill 3,000 palestinians and get away with murder. honestly that's going to destroy not only us in the region, and beyond, because this conflict is a political conflict, it's not the religious conflict but has significance for many around the world and that will affect coexistence in the region and beyond. >> i know you were listening to my interview with the spokesperson for the idf. i asked him if there was an assurance for the palestinians who are being asked or told to leave that they will be able to come back. did you find his response comforting? >> no, i found none of his response comforting, saying this is go on, saying, you know,

palestinians will be killed and that's not our fault, and saying this order, the u.n. is saying these are death sentences for many palestinians, and we're saying it's forced transfer, and he's not able to deny it. it is actually forced transfer, and we're speaking from experience. gaza is 70% refugees already. and you're displacing them and bombing. it's not true that the bombings have stopped anywhere, and this is a very small place, and you're telling people who have nowhere to go, no shelters, hospitals are being targeted, rescue teams are targeted. leave, go where. not in my words. >> in my conversations with people in the region, who studied the region, one of the things they told me is palestinians grew up thinking of one thing, which is is what i'm doing today going to help palestinians be free tomorrow. looking ahead to the future, is what happened last saturday, did that help the palestinian cause toward freedom? >> of course not.

we have a clear line. we reject the killing of civilians this all circumstances. we don't believe in discriminating or double standards. we believe in the rule of international law but we need the reciprocity. we need respect for our rights and our human dignity, and honestly, you know, this is terrible. our responsibility is not to make things more terrible. our responsibility is to solve the problems that led us here. and honestly, we should be courageous and brave. this is the time to be it, when, every five minutes a palestinian is killed. every 15 minutes, a palestinian child is dying now, and we're unable to say cease fter. the people in gaza have survived

17 years of siege and assaults, only to die again now, and jr. interlocutor says it's better for palestinians in gaza. who are you talking about, the 3,000 you killed, the people who will survive with this trauma forever. the people who cannot mourn their children, bury their loved ones. this is for you guys, we're dropping our bombs for you. enough is enough. there's a point where this is absurd, they cannot continue occupying us. it's time for us to be free and for all of us to live in peace, and the u.s. you have interests around the world. how does it help your interests to appear as in any way accepting what is happening. around the world in the arab and muslim world, public opinions around the world, the u.s. was saying these things about equal measures of freedom, peace and security, and then is being dragged into this situation.

so you need clear words about protection of civilians, international humanitarian law. we finally heard them, it took a few days, and you need clear actions to live by the words, words are nothing if you don't act upon them. >> ambassador, we really appreciate you joining us. thank you for your time and all of your perspectives. we enjoy having you on. >> thank you very much. and coming up next, another hard right turn, but we're going to talk about a gag order, what limits judge tanya chutkan just put on donald trump in the jack smith election interference case. h election interference case

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ryan reilly, h has a new book coming out tomorrow about the investigation. congratulations. it's called "sedition hunter". what can donald trump no longer say? >> reporter: he can disparage dc, but it's really the specific attacks on potential witnesses, as well as jack smith's team, as well as court staff that judge chutkan is primarily worried about. she brought up a lot of theoreticals and she was using the example of bill barr, whether he could say he's a slimy liar, but not so divorced from reality from the things we've seen trump say. trump has responded, he spoke out recently about plans to appeal. take a listen. >> they put a gag order on me, and i'm not supposed to be talking about things that bad people do.

and so we'll be appealing very quickly. >> reporter: the tricky thing here is, of course, that mike pence is one of the witnesses and mike pence is still in the race, despite being behind in the polls. he's still a candidate for office, running against trump here. so if she actually specified in this case that he can speak about pence, but it's just the specific dealings that may come up in this case, so surrounding january 6th and some of these tensions between trump and himself. of course, that's really a lot of what donald trump has criticized mike pence for, for not standing up in the way that he thought that he should on january 6th itself. >> ryan, thank you very much. coming up next, protests in israel this weekend against prime minister netanyahu. how long can he continue to lead? balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

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we have breaking news out of belgium. police in brussels say there has been a shooting near the city center. there are several victims and the suspect is still on the loose. we're going to bring you new details and information as we get it. in the meantime, take a look at these images out of tel aviv. families have taken pictures of some of the 199 people now believed to be held by hamas. the signs will remind you of the pictures of 9/11 victims posted on a fence at ground zero. the protests, an expression of growing anger and frustration at prime minister netanyahu and his government. demonstrators accusing him and the government of failing to protect their loved ones and demanding the leaders resign. joining us now is independent

journalist who spent over two decades covering the conflict between the israelis and palestinians. i wanted you to wrap up coverage because you have a finger on the pulse of what's happening inside israel. i was struck by, amid all this grief and anger and fear about personal security that still exists within israel, that people are not going to cafes, but taking to the streets over the weekend to protest. tell me what they were protesting. >> reporter: yeah, well, they are in agony, these are -- it's a combination, in part family members of the -- we now know more than 200, possibly as high as 300, israeli hostages who were taken by hamas as either leverage against israel or human shields, and people angry at netanyahu, who may not have a personal tragedy, but, remember,

netanyahu is a very unpopular prime minister, there have been massive protests against him before this war, this entire year, because he was trying to pass a series of laws that would overhaul completely israel's system of government and make it authoritarian. and people feel he weakened israel. he's now getting a sort of blowback i wasn't sure would come, which is his own ministers have started apologizing. a member of the parliament posted this really -- i mean, very emotional facebook post entitled "sorry" asking for forgiveness from the people of israel. what's appearing is that basically the prime minister, the minister of defense, are the only two people who are in power and won't take responsibility for now. >> he hasn't taken any responsibility. has he been trying to place the

blame elsewhere? >> reporter: yes, he has. it's unfortunate, but he has. netanyahu operates, and has for many years, a network of proxies, his son operates this pretty strong online troll network, and so what we're seeing in israel in the last few days are really harsh accusations of blame against mostly the military and their huge failures. and what we've also seen is military chiefs taking responsibility -- or security chiefs, i should say, the chief of staff of the israeli army said that the army had not done its duty. today the head of the israeli security organization released a kind of heart wrenching letter to his staff saying it was on my watch and it's on me.

so netanyahu's defiance, he gave a speech today at the parliament, the opening of the winter session, he's not -- he doesn't appear to consider himself in any way responsible for what happened. i want to just add one thing, if i could. in the last two minutes, the terror organization, hamas, released its first hostage video, and it's of a 21-year-old young israeli woman. she's a dual citizen of france. i don't want to repeat what she says, because clearly she's under duress, but these kind of videos are going to increase this pressure against netanyahu. >> what about protesting what netanyahu did up until the attack, and the policy that he had toward palestinians and the support that he and his government held for israeli settlers in the west bank? >> reporter: yes, absolutely, that is more -- i would say less

on the emotional or popular level and much more in the political sphere. he is being slammed by the opposition, and not just the opposition. for example, a very right wing legislator not in netanyahu's coalition, but a former israeli chief of staff has basically taken every single day to the airwaves to say that every day netanyahu remains in power is more dangerous for the state and he must resign. and the reasons for that are double. it's mostly holding netanyahu responsible for supporting hamas above the palestinian authority, and then the head of the opposition's case, it's exactly for the reason you just said, supporting west bank settlers rather than any peace avenues. >> making the country more dangerous because there's not