may be saving things. frankly, for the former president. but it will be interesting to see how expensive she gets with the evidence. >> okay, temidayo aganga-williams and melissa redmon, thank you both for joining me. we appreciate it. that is all in on this thursday night. now alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening,. alex >> that is the hurricane of news from the last hour. my goodness. we will have more on all of it coming up and the next hour, thank you my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. president biden just gave what is only the second oval address of his presidency. positioning america as a bulwark against the door forces that are amassing across the globe from ukraine to gaza. >> hamas and putin represent different threats, but they share this and comment. they want to annihilate a neighboring democracy. completely annihilated. american democracy is what hope the world together.

american airlines are what keep us safe. american values are what make us a part of what other nations want to work with. we put all that at risk people away from ukraine. we turn our backs on israel. it's just not worth it. >> but this message comes as the world is essentially holding its collective breath, waiting for what comes next in the middle east. do you see all of the little talks and this satellite images? those are hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles thatisrael has deployed ahead of a potential ground invasion. that massive military buildup is sitting, is waiting just about four miles north of that main entry point in kansas northern border. the erez crossing. the israeli military has been putting out videos like this one for days now, videos showing their tanks and troops training and preparing your council northam border. today, israel's defense minister -- traveled in person to tell israeli troops near the border

to get organized and to be ready. whoever sees gaza from afar now we'll see it from the inside, he said. i promise you. prime minister benjamin netanyahu was also north a border with troops today. and he told them, we are going to win with all our mites and ask soldiers, are you ready? so the prospect of a ground invasion, which would be a major escalation and is expected to result in a dramatic increase and casualties on both sides of this war, at is very much a life issue at this hour. and while those israeli ground forc are amassed at gaza's northern border, potentially entering for the erez crossing at any moment, we are awaiting a very different entry from gaza southern border. and according to the aid group that red crescent, more than 200 trucks with around 3000 tons of aid are lined up at or near the rafah crossing, waiting to be let in, let

through to deliver critical humanitarian supplies to civilians and gaza. after appearing to hit porter crossroads company, international observers will begin to inspect the trucks, making sure no weapons or someplace for hamas or smuggled in. that will start by trying to get 20 trucks through the crossing tomorrow, as a sort of test of the system. if that works, the hope is start sending 100 trucks through the crossing every day. trucks that would be filled with humanitarian supplies. that is the amount of aid doesn't receive before the war began. so there is a potential ground invasion just across the northern border and desperately needed humanitarian aid just across the southern border. but potentially entering gaza imminently. meanwhile, that death toll of this war continues to rise. the idf reported 1400 have been killed in israel and the hamas run cause and a health ministry reports that more than 3700

have been killed in gaza. this conflict is at a tipping point. and it could swing and a lot of different directions right now. today, israeli prime minister benjamin nathaniel who boards this could be a long war. and as president biden himself made clear tonight, it is not the only longworth demanding american support. justice quickly, pass the 600 day mark for the war in ukraine. in his speech tonight, president biden stressed the importance of american support for both of these wars, and why they both matter, right here at home. >> why does this matter to america? let me share with you what making sure israel and ukraine succeed is vital for american national security. you, know history has taught us that when terrorists don't pay the price for the terror, when dictators don't pay a price for their aggression, they cause more chaos and death and more destruction. they keep going. >> joining me now is virginia

senator tim kaine, member of the senate foreign relations and i'm services committee. thanks for being. here for not i'm genuinely interested to know, how you think the american public looks at these two battles. the one in ukraine and the war in israel. don't you think, i mean, president biden tried to connect was them in the same lens. this broader fight against the forces of darkness, terrorism, fascism, what have you. do you think the american public sees them through the same lens? >> you know, alex, i live in virginia. which is a state that is just, if there is a more pro u.s. military in terms of our history and veterans and active duty population and military families, i don't know of one. we are a patriotic, pro u.s. state. and i think people look at at where it's a time of the world,

democracies versus destroyers. what the president said this evening is you've got detectors who want to destroy a neighboring democracy. terrorist groups that want to destroy a neighboring democracy. and democracies aren't perfect. we aren't, here in the. united states. israel's, and ukraine isn't. but democracies are vastly preferable to those who want to destroy human rights and international law. and that's what's at stake right now. and that's why i think it was very important for the president to address the nation and talk about that linkage between what we are doing to support ukrainians and what we are doing to support israelis in their defense against this hamas terrorist attack. >> he was making a fairly eloquent, sort, of laying out an eloquent faces about the existential nature of the battle. at this hour. but there's also a political reality of what the white house is thinking, which is increased funding for ukraine and israel.

and i wonder, given the shambles that is the lower chamber of the house of representatives, whether you think his argument will help, once or as a speaker? to move republicans who may be some recalcitrant on funding for ukraine. seeing as the president want to bundle it in the argument has begun for israel. >> yeah, alex, i think you put different core on a good point. we don't feel like there is, you know, huge challenges in terms of providing support for israel and their battle against tomas. we have to mccarthy do it in a way that minimize a civilian casualties. that supports humanitarian aid to gaza. because gaza is not hamas. palestinians are no hamas. palestinians and thousands are under the thumb of hamas. but how do you do this and how do you convince congress to do it? my sense is this. while the house is trying to figure out their leadership vacuum right now, the senate

has a bigger burden on its shoulders to act and i'm a partisan way. when the president sands this package of, i think you're going to see us turn to it immediately. and my vote counting in the senate tells me we have a big bipartisan majority to support aid to ukraine, aid to israel, the disaster relief, a touch commonly part of a supplemental package, and we will do that and we will send it to the house with a big bipartisan margin. and if they're organizing, when we sent into them, with a bipartisan margin, that's the way to maximize change of success. so we'll go to work on this as soon as we're back next week. and the house will figure itself out, but i think the senate can act and a partisan way to support this important priorities. >> senator, i gotta ask you. the president keeps invoking the specter of 9/11 when he talks about overreach, mistakes being made. it's also the reality that there was no necessary and point, no foreseen way of

ending those wars at their outset. should democrats, should the white house be concerned about how the war between israel and hamas incentive, and the fact that we are increasing funding, america is apparently all in on the side of israel, should they be concerned or trepidation about what the endgame actually is? >> alex, absolutely. america is all in on the side of israel against hamas. we have to draw the distinction. hamas is not the same as gaza, it's not the time is palestinians. and if there is a lesson from 9/11, it is when you're attacked, and you have to worlds sympathy on your side, make sure that your response is calibrated against the perpetrator of the attack. when the u.s. went after osama bin laden or al-qaeda, we had the world on our side. but when we allow the mission to create more broadly, to a global war on terror, when we declared four against iraq that had nothing to do with the 9/11

attack, we lost support. we lost credibility. and we unleashed a straining of consequences that we're back to the u.s. before the region back for the world. and that's why president biden went in person to talk to prime minister netanyahu and other. if you can provide support from afar. but if you want to look somebody in the eye and say whatever your emotions right, now and the emotions are completely valid, you do not weaken yourself by being strategic in your response. that's why president biden went to israel, because he wanted to deliver that message in person. and i think we need to work with our allies, israel, to make sure they take steps in the coming days. make sure the response against the perpetrator, but not against that so many millions in gaza who are suffering under the thumb of hamas. >> it is a very, very complicated high wire act right

now. senator tim kaine, such a pleasure to have you on the show. thanks for your time, sir, really appreciate it. >> glad to be with you, you bet. >> joining me now, ali velshi msnbc chief correspondent and of course host of velshi. ali, we're just talking with the senator tim kaine about the sort of complexity here before the white house. i want to put a little bit of sound. when president biden went to just pop a senator was talking about, sort of trying to urge israel in the most public fashion to abide by the laws of war. let's take a listen to that. if we have it? maybe we don't. here's what he said. >> at the same time, president netanyahu and i discussed again yesterday, the critical need for israel to upright by the laws of war. that means protecting civilians in combat as best they can. >> what do you make of? this >> a lot of people don't know there are laws of war.

there are five basic principles in the laws of war. your response needs to be proportional. you don't, as much as possible, involved non-combatants. you sort of do the thing as honorably and with as little limit possible. i think what president biden, when he first spoke after the massacre, is he pledged unconditional support for israel. which i think calmed a lot of feathers and israel. now, as this goes broad, and as we have not seen a ground invasion, which is going to be catastrophic on several levels, including as israelis say, for their own totals, because urban warfare is a terrible thing. this is for president biden especially saying, tonight i've given you the assurances. i'm asking congress for money. we told you will have your back on this and deliberate and the ammunition. we need to proceed in a way to minimize civilian casualties. as a symbol, says the folks living there do not have agency. they're not picking their leaders. there are no elections, no opposition parties. and while it's interesting to say hamas is not gaza and gaza

is not hamas, hamas is more intertwined into the lives of gazans then you can imagine. they're all the hospitals, all the civil services, all that stuff. so this is very complicated. the whole region is complicated, israel palestine is complicated, because it is complicated. but the hamas relationship to the 2.2 million civilians of gaza's inextricable. that doesn't mean that support them. it means you can't live without them. so if you're going to take out a thinker going to take out hamas, there better be some sort of plan as to what comes. next >> that's something we addressed as well, with the senator, which is what people dribble and put all this war. i will say, what he was saying about biden's trip to israel, in the context of trying to caution israel, it's a very frames that, right? it wasn't just about showing solidarity with as, wrote it was possibly also just saying to prime minister netanyahu, behind closed doors, do not violate the rules, the laws of war. do not overstate this.

do not owe do what we did and 9/11. >> the other thing we did after 9/11, if somebody has helped us 20 years from now, this is how it's going to. look that bad guys will be in power. you would have or get out the evil you thought, and uphold bunch of people will be did, and it will cost you several trillion dollars, we might have done something else. you can't look around -- your best. biden was saying two things. one is, minimize the damage and the risks and the civilian deaths. and to, is just think five times about this. because you could get yourself into a situation like we did in afghanistan, we're in the, and here on the choice was to leave. that's complicated and a lot of israelis, who are really hurting, also understand that. if you're not, if you don't have a way of taking this out by its, root maker there's a plan to get out. because they don't want to end up with a whole bunch of gazans and what is essentially a refugee camp. >> that's a measurable difference between america involve itself and works in the middle east and israel, which is centered in the middle east. i have to ask you about the

presidents framing. of israel and the same conduct as ukraine and this poor accidental battle for and against democracy. you have reported from both regions. i wonder -- [inaudible] >> a congress that isn't getting its business, stop and he needs funding from both. things republicans a little troublesome on the funding of ukraine. so he needed to do a couple of jobs and he needed to explain the u.s. has resurfaced commanded to do different battles. there are a little bit of apples and oranges. and i think that's where it gets confusing. i think i understand what the intent was. he's saying, we need to do different things and we need congressional and american support for it. there are different. their histories are different. their quarters are different. the underlying effect or

different. so i did find it a little confusing, but i got the point he was trying to. make the problem is, and complicated things like, this combining thing sometimes doesn't get the point across. >> i think it was, i may, as much as i think a genuine belief in his thesis was also trying to tackle the matter at hand, which is waiting to get ukraine funding, we need -- >> we do this all the time on tv. we try to put two things into -- >> what are you talking? about never! >> i get the intent, but it was tough. >> we were going to dissect those remarks over the course of the next 24 hours. and i thank you for being with me for rapid spawns. ali velshi, host of velshi, airing weekends, ten i am on msnbc. we have lots more ahead this evening. former trump attorney sydney powell, the person who famously vowed to release the kraken in order to hand the 2020 election to trump, that person is now pleading guilty and the georgia election conspiracy case. what does that mean for her

fellow defendant, donald trump. but first, who can captain the house republican conference? right now, it looks like no one. south carolina congressman jim clyburn will be here to help understand what exactly is happening in the house. that's next. that's next. are you still struggling with your bra? it's time for you to try knix. makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras. for revolutionary support without underwires,

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were struggling to elect a speaker of the house this year, they almost came to blows. >> somebody is holding somebody back. somebody just held somebody back. stephanie, just look at. that looks like a fight breaking out on the floor. >> republican congressman mike rogers had to be physically restrained from lunging at congressman matt gaetz on the house floor. and if you remember, that was a january six of this year, the two year anniversary of the violent attack that took place in that very chamber. and today house republicans appear to have not learned much in the intervening months. today republicans held a closed-door meeting to decide how to move forward after two failed votes to elect a new speaker, and during that meeting, congressman matt gaetz

reportedly stood up to speak, at which point illinois republican mike boss almost lunged at him. so once again, we have reached the lunging at matt gaetz part of the speaker cycle. i did not know it was an actual thing until now. going into that meeting there had been a lot of speculation that republicans might coalesce around a plan to empower congressman patrick mchenry as a temporary speaker, but coming out of that, multiple republicans announced that plan is now dead. congressman jim jordan for his part is still attempting to win the gavel, despite his historic loss earlier this week. late today he met with the 22 republican holdouts who opposed his candidacy. told jim jordan they would not back his vote for speaker. all of which poses a major

problem for both jim jordan and the house republican conference. there is apparently no viable republican candidate for speaker of the house. nonetheless, jim jordan's office announced the third speaker vote is scheduled for tomorrow at ten a.m.. joining me now to help figure out what is happening here, is south carolina democrat congressman jim clyburn, he's the assistant democratic leader in the house. congressman clyburn, thank you for joining me tonight. there seems to be so much confusion in the house republican conference. i'm wondering whether you can tell us your understanding of the situation as it stands right now. do you believe that republicans have completely closed the door on the idea of patrick mchenry being made a more medium term speaker? >> well, thank you very much for having me. it seems that way and that is very regretful. i do believe that american

people are looking to us for civility, for cooperation, and quite frankly, for compromise. nobody gets their way all the time, and we should, as leaders of this great country, demonstrate to the american people that we understand what it is to find common ground, and what is required. now they're holding on, my republican friends, to rules set that -- that you've got to have all republicans on board and not need any democrats. well that's not the country. this country is pretty evenly divided politically, and we ought to compliment our work here by reflecting what the country stands for. and so to have a bipartisan path forward, would be in

keeping with the makeup of the american people at this particular juncture, and i don't know why they resisted that. >> i have my theories about why they don't want to be bipartisan, but i guess i wonder, what happens now? patrick mchenry has said, if you guys want to me to do the business of the house without formally investing me with the powers to do that business, which is to say, without a vote, i'm not going to do it. i'm quitting. i'm out of here. there is no plan a here, congressman. there is no plan b, and there's certainly no plan c. what do you think happens next as far as the house ever functioning again? >> well, from what i have been hearing tonight, it seems as if we're going to meet tomorrow at 10:00 and there's going to be a vote. now i am told that the vote will be for a speaker that

jordan will put his name forward again. well, i'm also told that he has been in a meeting with a 20 or 22 people who voted against him, and they all said they are not going to vote for him. so why would we put the american people through that? why don't we just do something of a temporary basis on an interim basis, and that's what we need to do. give patrick mchenry the authority he needs for the next few months, until maybe the end of the year, so that he can get us to doing what we need to do. the president just gave an incredible speech to the american people, showing why he sits in that office and demonstrating the results of the meetings he had in the war zone, and we've got the president going to the war zone

who is now sending to us a request to maintain our relationships with our allies across the world, and also to do what is necessary to assist israel, and we don't have the wherewithal to get it done. that doesn't make sense. let's put the people of america above partisan politics and get this done. and let's revisit politics at a later time. >> given what you just said, i would love your reaction to kevin mccarthy who, today, is blaming democrats for this dysfunction, saying every single democrat chose to create this chaos. your response to that? >> well, you know, i don't know what kevin is talking about. you may recall, the morning after the democrats gave him more votes than his own republicans gave him for his

bill to keep the government open, that was not our bill. that was his bill. and we gave him more votes for his bill that he got from his own conference. then he goes on television the next morning blaming democrats for wanting to shut the government down. for some strange reason he seemed to be living in another world. nobody watching the leader of the democrats, hakeem jeffries, reaching out two days ago, saying that we will are willing to be a part of a temporary solution to put mchenry forward and he demonstrated that all that he had to say that we democrats are willing to go with a temporary solution to give them time, to get their stuff together. it seemed to me he ought to be grateful for that. but they seem to be ungrateful. >> probably being a bit euphemistic. kind of generosity that

adjective. congressman jim clyburn, good luck to you, sir. good luck to us. all thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you very much. we're going to need it. >> you sure will. coming up, if you thought house republicans were crazy, recalled on trump's former lawyer and conspiracy whisper, sydney powell. today she pled guilty on the eve of her georgia trial and agreed to testify against all of her fellow defendants including donald trump. what it could mean for the 45th president. that's next. that's next. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you.

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of laughing. the phone was on speaker, but we were muted. so she couldn't hear us. and he said, like, this does sound crazy, doesn't it? and i think i said yes, yes it does. >> i was former white house aide hope hicks testifying to the house january six committee, recalling when president trump concluded that a certain woman's claims about the 2020 election sounded crazy. tucker carlson, before he got fired from fox news, called the same woman unguarded missile, dangerous as hell, and a crazy person. those were just the words i can repeat on television. mr. trump and mr. carlson read

both talking about sydney powell, the former election lawyer at the center of trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. and despite believing her to be crazy and dangerous as hell and an unguarded missile, fox news, and, more importantly, president trump, ran with her ideas. less than two weeks after trump lost the election to joe biden, powell joined rudy giuliani and others to claim, without evidence, of the socialist government of venezuela and hugo chavez, who had been dead for almost a decade at that point, that they interfered in the 2020 election. china, according to powell, was also part of that plot. >> what we are really dealing with here and uncovering more by the day is the massive influence of communist money through venezuela, cuba, and likely china, in the interference with our elections

here in the united states. >> three years later, it's still boggles the mind. but even after powell went public with that wackadoodles theory, trump considered making sydney powell a special counsel to investigate election fraud. that happened during an infamous white house meeting in december of 2020, a meeting the sydney powell, rudy giuliani, and others koloko you known as team crazy, that they tried to have in secret with president trump in that meeting powell and others raised the prospect of seizing voting machines from key counties and deploying the national guard to potentially re-run the 2020 election. white house lawyers and staffers, colloquially known as team normal, they had no idea that meeting was taking place but the second they learned about it, they ran as fast as they could to put a stop to it. powell herself ladle later testified to jerry's his committee, while sipping on a diet dr pepper, which should be noted, during that meeting she

also told trump about finding's pointing to security flaws in dominion voting machines. she is the president was very instructed in the information that apparently nobody had bothered to inform him of. and because of the statements, and many other things sydney powell has said, she is being sued, not by one, but by two companies that provided election software to the u.s. during the 2020 election. dominion and smartmatic. miss powell has not admitted that many of her claims were false and today she pleaded guilty to six misdemeanor charges of election interference in georgia related to request to try to help trump stay in power, specifically her role in breaching voting machine equipment in coffee county, georgia. >> can you please state your two incorrect legal name? >> sydney katherine powell. >> how do you plead to the six count of conspiracy to commit intentional interference with election duties? >> guilty. >> as part of the deal she reached georgia prosecutors,

powell receive six years probation and must pay a 6000 dollar fine. most importantly, though, her plea deal requires her to testify truthfully in the case, at the trials of any of the other georgia codefendants, including donald trump. so now the sydney powell is talking in georgia, what does that mean for donald trump? or for his codefendants on team crazy? rudy giuliani and john eastman? more to the point, what does he mean for jackson, with who special counsel who is overlooking the case against donald trump? neil cattle will and anna bowers will join me next to discuss the implications of this potentially seismic development. stay with us. stay with us hi, my name's steve. i lost 138 pounds on golo and i kept it off. golo's changed my life in so many ways. before, i was over 300 pounds.

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asking that you truthfully testify at all hearings and proceedings and trials involving codefendants in this matter, and that you have no communication with codefendants, media, or witnesses until this case has been completely closed, against all defendants? >> i do. >> that was donald trump's former lawyer, sydney powell, in court today pleading guilty to six misdemeanor counts just days before what was supposed to be the start of her criminal trial for election interference in fulton county, georgia. as we just heard, one of the conditions of this plea is that she truthfully testify at all hearings, proceedings, and trials, against the 17 other codefendants in this case. that of course includes donald trump. joining me now are anna bower, legal fellow and courts

correspondent for lawfare, and neal katyal, former acting solicitor general. thank you both for being. here anna, let me ask you first, given the sort of timeline here. palace trial is supposed to begin effectively friday or monday. what do you think happened here to precipitate this plea deal? >> right, so, we are on the eve of trial. ken chesebro's trial is set to start tomorrow's 450 jurors are set to come into fulton county to fill out their jury questionnaires. and it's not unusual for defendants to saddle or a strike a plea deal on the eve of trials. so in some sense this isn't all that surprising. we saw earlier in the week that after weeks of sydney powell arguing that she didn't have anything to do with the allegations related to the breach of voting systems in coffee county or that it was authorized, if she did, judge

mcafee handed down a series of orders in which he struck down some of her arguments that she made to dismiss those charges based on those types of arguments. so i think that it seems like this is something that happened very quickly, it happened after judge mcafee kind of handed down those legal defeats, so i think that it made sense. it was a cost-benefit analysis for sydney powell. these are some of the more serious charges that any of these defendants were a face set for the facing because it involves computer trespass. she was looking at seven felonies and possible prison time, i think that she just made a calculation that this is what she should have done. >> trump versus jail. the choice isn't that hard. neal, trump's attorney seems confident that her testimony will be favorable to my overall defense strategy. if trump is on record saying

sydney powell sounds crazy, does that diminish our utility as a witness? >> no. i think she's gonna be a devastating witness. first of all, i think this is the legally the smartest decision that sydney powell has ever made in her entire career, and i can't say i think much of sydney powell's legal acumen, but for once i've got to commend her for making the right legal choice because it was a no-brainer for her. if the case had gone to trial, i think it would have gone as well as her challenges to the 2020 election. in a way i disagree a bit with anna. i do think this is still surprising because no-brainer's are exactly what sydney powell kind of would reject. she wasn't really part of the reality based community for many years. [laughter] but now she has joined it. to me, alex, the most significant thing, it's not the plea, it's to six misdemeanors. what sydney powell did was not

a misdemeanor. there's only one reason i, think, that the prosecutors would give her such a light plea deal, and it's because she's got significant testimony. and if i'm trump or trump's lawyer right now, the thing i'd be most worried about, is not just that she agreed to testify truthfully and all that and for future proceedings. it's the last day she recorded a video tape of testimony that was turned over to the prosecutors and part of this plea agreement requires her not to talk about it with anyone, other defendants, the media, whomever. that tape is, i think, of significant interest, and trump can say all he wants about her diminish credibility, but remember, as you just said in your earlier click offs, trump tried to make her special counsel over the entire thing. so good luck with that, when mr. trump. >> anna, when we talk about can chesebro, his trial, as of right, now is full steam ahead. do you get any sense that there is some buyers remorse on

asking for the speedy trial, if your kid chesebro, as he, in the cheese stands alone, as it. where >> i'm not quite sure yet, alex. i reached out earlier today to chesebro's attorneys and they were not yet prepared to comment but i will say that this is something that took everyone off guard, including multiple defense attorneys, so i think that they were taking some time to process this news, but can chesebro has a very different case and sidney powell did, he had previously asked to be severed from sydney powell, and he wanted to stand-alone, and indeed the cheese is now standing alone, and i think that there is potential upside for him there because some of the more serious allegations about coffee county will maybe have less of a spotlight in this upcoming trial, so maybe he can try to minimize the seriousness

of that, now that he is no longer standing next to sydney powell, but you know, all is quiet in terms of that legal team at the moment, and we're all kind of wondering, you know, where they will go from here. >> how does this affect jack smith's case, neil? she's one of the unnamed coconspirators in that case. >> yeah, i suspect very much sydney powell tried to do a global deal with the local and federal prosecutors in every circumstance want to do that, and i suspect jack smith said no, and we're just reading the tea leaves here but probably the reason that smith required her to plead guilty to a felony and that was something that georgia prosecutors weren't -- on. anything she says in georgia, including on that videotape, or on a future proceedings, jack smith can introduce, so this way into the jacks mitt gets to have his cake and eat it too, should he decide to go after

her, as i suspect that he will. so i think one thing to worry about is just where powell's testimony will go. but another thing, if your trump, the thing you're scared about is, is this now the start of a domino effect? we know in conspiracy cases, i had read a whole article about, it once one person starts to plead and phil flip, others generally follow. and there are 17 others that may follow. and so trump has to worry not just powell but about everyone else. >> 17 members of, not necessarily team crazy, but 70 people who may be willing to join the reality based community. anna bower, neil cotula, thank you for joining me tonight. when we come back, new reporting in the atlantic suggests hamas's brutal attack in southern israel did not play out the way the terror group may have intended. the author that piece joins me next. stay with us. stay with us gs you loved... ...before asthma got in the way? fasenra is an add-on treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils.

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in the atlantic today, hamas may not have had a plan for the extraordinary hostage situation and now finds itself in. quote, a hostage taking manual that was recovered in the aftermath of the hamas attack suggests that the groups hostage taking on october 7th did not go according to plan. manual suggest the group first intended not to spirit all of them into gaza but instead to take them hostage where they were found inside israel, possibly for a protective standoff. we should note that msnbc has not seen this document. the atlantic reports it obtained a copy of the manual from an israeli defense official. joining me now is the author of that new rope reporting, staff writer at the niantic. thank you for making the. time i found this fascinating. i wonder if you could elaborate on exactly how moss had been planning for, vis-à-vis the hostages. >> the manual is a manual that is emblazoned with the logo of

a sub unit of hamas's military arm, and it suggests that what hamas is planning to do is to on-site, in the places where they attacked, in the communities where they attacked, have hostage siege is. they were supposed to concentrate this hostages in israeli territory and expect to sort of camp out. they would have to have food, water, flashlights, batteries, and instead that plan was too thrown in the trash because they had such great success in penetrating israeli territory that they were able to take the hostages and bring them back to gaza in much larger numbers than they had expected. >> it sounds like that planning, the food and water et cetera, those are resources they and they wanted to seize and bring with them into israel. what are the implications for the hostages presumably now being held in gaza, if there was no advanced planning to house hostages in that area from the outset? >> so remember, there are 203

hostages at current count. it appears that hamas did not expect to have them. israeli society is reeling at the number of people who have been brought to gaza, and hamas must also be considering its luck so great that it doesn't know what to do with it. obviously they're going to negotiate for the lives of those hostages. we're going to use them as human shields. they even cited the clip that they had, that they should use them as human shields. but they have this incredible bonanza it israeli life that they can now deal with. it's just not in the terms that they were expecting to deal with it originally. >> the manual also seemed to suggest no prior knowledge that other jihadist terror groups might enter the territory as well and take their own hostages. is that right? that sort of seems like something that happened spontaneously. >> well, it's not just other jihadist groups. ordinary gazan civilians saw

that there was this break in the line and many people came in, they looted things, they took part in killing and torture and so that was not contemplated either. what we really get the sense of is that there was unprecedented, unexpected success for this operation, where they thought they were going to go in, they thought they were going to meet professional israeli resistance. in fact they spent hours looting and killing with impunity, and that was not something they planned for. >> really quick, i know you've done extensive reporting about this part of the world and also terrorist networks. because this is idf, israeli defense forces, how confident are you that this is effectively an authentic document? >> yes, so this document was circulating before the israeli defense forces authenticated it for me. so i was able to find copies of it elsewhere. there are parts of it that the idf preferred not to have released.

it's of course impossible to tell whether it's authentic, just independently. it's nothing that remarks it is obviously false. where the idf says yes, this was recovered from hamas property that was recovered in israeli territory after the raid of the 7th of october. but i'm so i'm pretty confident that it's accurate and true, not forgery. >> it's explosive reporting, and even more devastating, more devastating situation that we then we could have fathom for these hostages. graeme wood thank you for making the time tonight and for this essential reporting. that is it for us tonight. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening. alex andrew weissmann hasn't been spending as much time with us as usual on this program, but he will be here tonight because there was of course, the guilty plea today, and alex, imagine that you are sidney powell -- i >> don't want to imagine th