up. this is what he's wanted. they whoever then the plea deal tells me he's fully committed to tracking this all the way. he's gonna have his chance. i think what i'm looking forward to in that jury selection, he's obviously going to be looking for the markers are proxies of a more conservative jury, people who are going to be more inclined to have the same political leanings. and frankly, as a former prosecutor, you -- know >> exactly, and that's how it worked, so i think that's what we're gonna be looking for. what's gonna be get interesting is when we get to that evidence when it's televised for the american people to see. and i'm really curious to see what is fani willis going to put up, because she doesn't have to put up her whole case. >> she may not want put out a whole case. she may not want to. she may be saving things, frankly, for the former president, but i'm going to be interest today see how expansive she gets in the evidence she puts forward. >> thank you both for joining. appreciate it.

that is "all in" on this thursday night. alex wagner tonight begins right now. >> that's a hurricane of news. my goodness, we'll have all of it coming up in the next half hour. thank tuesday you at home for joining me this hour. president biden just gave what is only the second oval address of his presidency positioning america as a bulwark against the dark forces that are amassing across the globe from ukraine to gaza. >> hamas and putin represent different threats, but they share this in common. they both want to completely annihilate a neighboring democracy, completely annihilate it. american leadership is what hold the world together. american alliances are what keeps us, america safe. american values are what makes us a partner other nations wanted to work with. put all of that at risk if we walk away from ukraine, we turn our backs on israel. it's just not worth it. >> biden's message comes as the

world is essentially holding its collective breath waiting for what comes next in the middle east. do you see all of the little dots in these satellite images? those are hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles that israel has deployed ahead of a potential ground invasion. that massive military buildup is sitting -- is waiting just about 4 miles north of the main entry point at gaza's northern border. the israeli military has been putting out videos like this one for days now, videos showing their tanks and troops training and preparing near gaza's northern border. today israel's defense minister traveled in person to tell israeli troops near the border to get organized and to be ready. whoever sees gaza from afar now will see it from the inside he said, i promise you. prime minister benjamin netanyahu was also near the border with troops today, and he told them, we are going to win

with all our might and asked the soliers ro ready. so the prospect of a ground invasion, which would be a major escalation and expected to result in a dramatic increase in casualties on both sides of this war, that is very much a live issue at this hour. and while those israeli ground forces are amassed at gaza's northern border, potentially entering through the crossing at any moment, we're awaiting a very different entry from gaza's southern border. according to aid crescent around 200 trucks with around 3,000 tons of aid are lined up at or near the rafah crossing waiting to be let through to deliver critical humanitarian supplies to civilians in gaza. after repairs to that border crossing are completed, international observers will begin to inspect the trucks making sure no weapons or supplies for hamas are smuggled

in. they'll start by trying to get 20 trucks through the crossing tomorrow as a test of the system. if that works, the hope is to send 100 trucks through that crossing every day, trucks that would be filled with humanitarian supplies. that is the amount of aid gaza received before the war began. so there is a potential ground ininvestigation just across the northern border and desperately needed humanitarian aid just across the southern border. both potentially entering gaza imminently. meanwhile, the death toll of this war continues to rise. the idf reports 1,400 have been killed in israel, and the hamas run gazan health ministry reports more than 3,700 have been killed in gaza. this conflict is at a tipping point, and it could swing in a lot of different directions right now. today israeli prime minister netanyahu warned this could be a long war. and as president biden himself made clear tonight, it is not

the only long war demanding american support. just this week we passed the 600-day mark for the war in ukraine. in his speech tonight president biden stressed the importance of american support for both of these wars and why they both matter right here at home. >> why does this matter to america? let me share with you why making sure israel and ukraine succeed is vital for america's national security. you know, history has taught us that when terrorists don't pay a price for their terror, when tick taerts don't pay a price for their aggression, they cause more chaos and death and more destruction. they keep going. >> joining me now is virginia senator tim kaine, member of the senate foreign relations and armed services committee. senator, thanks for being here tonight. and i'm interested today know how the american public looks at these two battle wheres, the war in ukraine and the war in

israel. president biden tried to contextualize them in the same lens, this broader fight against the force of darkness, terrorism, fascism, what have you. do you think the american public sees them through the same lens? >> you know, alex, i live in virginia which is a state that is just -- if there's a more pro-u.s. military in term of our history and veterans and active duty population and military families, you know, i don't know of one. we are a patriotic, pro-u.s. state. and i think the way people look at it here is it's a time in the world where sort of democracies versus destroyers. what the president said this evening is you've got dictators who want to destroy a neighboring democracy. you have terrorist groups who want to destroy a neighboring democracy, and democracies aren't perfect. we aren't here in the united states. israel isn't, ukraine isn't. but democracies are vastly

preferable to those who want to destroy human rights, international law, and that's what's at stake right now. and that's why i think it was very important for the president to address the nation and talk about the linkage between what we're doing to support ukrainians and what we're doing to support israelis in their defense against this hamas terrorist attack. >> he was making a fairly eloquent -- sort of laying out an eloquent thesis about the existential nature of the battle at this hour. but there's also this sort of political reality of what the white house is seeking, which is increased funding for ukraine and israel. and i wonder given the shambles that is the lower chamber of the house of representatives, whether you think his argument will help once there is a speaker elected move republicans who may be somewhat recalcitrant on funding for ukraine seeing as

the president would like to bundle in the argument he's making for israel. >> alex, i think you put your finger on a good point. we don't feel like there's, you know, huge challenges in terms of providing support for israel in their battle against hamas. we have to make sure they do it in a way that minimizes civilian casualties, that supports humanitarian aid to gazans because gaza is not hamas, palestinians are not hamas. palestinians and gazans are under the thumb of hamas. my sense is this, while the house is trying to figure out their leadership vacuum right now, the senate has a bigger burden on its shoulders to act in a bipartisan way. when the president sends this package over i think you're going to see us turn to it immediately. and my vote counting then senate tells me we have a big bipartisan majority to support

aid to ukraine, aid to israel, the disaster relief aid commonly part of a false supplemental package, and we'll do that and send it to the house with a big bipartisan margin. and if they're organizing when we send it to them, that's a way to maximize chances of success. we'll go back to this next week and the house will figure itself out, but i think the senate can act in a bipartisan way to support these important priorities. >> senator, i've got to ask you because the president keeps invoking the specter of 9/11 when he talks about overreach, mistakes being made and also the reality there was no necessary end point, no foreseen way of ending those wars at their outset. should democrats, should the white house be concerned about how the between israel and hamas ends given the fact we are increasing funding, america is apparently all in on the side of

israel. should there be concern or trepidation about what the end game actually is? >> alex, absolutely. america is all in on the side of israel against hamas, but we have to draw the distinction that hamas is not the same of gaza, not the same as palestinians. and the there's a lesson from 9/11 it is when you're attacked and you have the world's sympathy on your side, make sure your response is calibrated against the perpetrator of the attack. when the u.s. went after obalm soma bin laden and al-qaeda, we had the world on our side. but when we allowed the mission to creep broadly, when we declared war against iraq that had nothing to do with a 9/11 attack, we lost support. we lost credibility, and we unleashed a string of consequences that were bad for the united states, bad for the region, bad for the world. and that's why president biden went in person to talk to prime

minister netanyahu and others. you can provide support from afar, but if you want to look somebody in the eye and say whatever your emotions right now and the emotions are completely valid, you do not weaken yourself by being strategic in your response. that's why president biden went to israel because he wanted to deliver that message in person, and i think we need to work with our ally israel to make sure they take steps in the coming days that make sure the response is against the perpetrator but not against the so manynillions in gaza who are suffering under the thumb of hamas. >> it is a very, very complicated high wire act right now. senator tim kaine, such a pleasure to have you on the show. thanks for your time, sir. really appreciate it. >> glad to be with you. you bet. >> joining me now is ali velshi, chief correspondent and host of

velgsi. i want to play a bit of sound when president biden biden was trying to do what the senator was talking about, trying to urge israel by talking about the rules of war. let's take a listen to that if we have it. maybe we don't. here's what he said. >> at the same time president netanyahu and i discussed again yesterday the critical need for israel to operate by the laws of war. that means protecting civilians in combat as best they can. >> is this -- what do you make of this? >> a lot of people who aren't involved in wars there are five basic principles in the laws of war. you don't involve noncombatants and do the thing as honorably and with little damage as possible. i think what president biden

first spoke after the massacre is he pledged unconditional support and now as this goes forward and urban warfare is just a terrible thing, this is where president biden is basically saying tonight i'm giving you assurance. we need to proceed in a way that minimizes civilian casualties. as the senator says the folks living there do not have agency. they're not picking their elections. they're not elections, they're not opposition parties. and while it's interesting to say that hamas is not gaza and gaza is not hamas, hamas is more intertwined into the lives of gazans than you can imagine. they're all the hospitals, all the civil services, all that stuff. this is very complicated. the whole region is complicated.

israel, palatine is complicated. but the hamas relationship to the 2.2 million civilians is inexplicable. if you think you're going to take out hamas, then there better be some sort of plan what comes next. >> that is something we address would the senator as well, which is what the logical end point of this war. i will say what he was saying about biden's trip to israel in the context of trying to caution israel, it sort of reframes that. right, it wasn't just about showing solidarity with israel, it was also possibly to say to prime minister netanyahu behind closed doors do not violate the rules -- the laws of war, do not overstep this, do not do what we did in 9/11. >> and the other thing we did after 9/11 if somebody had told us 20 years from now this is how it's going to look, the bad guys going to be in power, you won't have rooted out the evil you thought and so many people would be dead and cost you trillions of dollars, we might do

something else. you can't look around the corner, so do your best to do that. one is minimize the damage and civilian deaths, and two think five times about this because you could get yourself in a situation like we did in afghanistan where in the end your only choice was to leave. that's complicated, and a lot of israelis who are really hurting also understand that, that if you don't have a way of taking this out by its root, make sure there's a plan to get out because they don't want to end up with a whole bunch of gazans in what is a big refugee camp. >> and that's the difference. i have to ask about the president's framing of israel in and the existential battle. you have reported from both of these regions. i'll ask the same question i

asked the senator. >> i understand the president doesn't give a lot of oval office addresses and he had two jobs to do because you have a congress that isn't getting business done and he needs funding for both things, and republicans are a little troublesome on the funding for the ukraine front. so he needed to do a couple of jobs and explain resources. i understand what the intent does. he says we're doing two different things and we need congressional and american support for it. it's just different. their causes are different, the underlying effects are different. i did find that a little confusing, so i got the point he was trying to make. the problem is in complicated layered things like this, combining things sometimes doesn't get the point across. >> as much i think it was a genuine belief in his thesis but also trying to tackle the matter

at hand, which is we need to get ukraine funding. >> we do this all the time on tv, right? we try to put two things. >> what are you talking about, never. always. >> i get the intent but it was tough. >> listen, we're going to dissect the remarks over the course of the next 24 hours. and thank you, my friend, for being with me and for a rapid response. ali velshi airing weekends at 10:00 a.m. we have lots more ahead this evening. former trump attorney sidney powell, the person who famously vowed to release the kraken in order to hand the election to trump, that person is now pleading guilty in the georgia election conspiracy case, so what does that mean for her fellow defendant, donald trump? but first who can captain the house republican conference? right now it looks like no one. south carolina congressman jim clyburn will be here to help me understand what exactly is happening in the house. that is next. that is next

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goli, taste your goals. by downloading duckduckgo the first time republicans were struggling to elect a speaker of the house this year they almost came to blows. >> somebody's holding somebody back. look at that. stephanie, looks like a fight

breaking out on the floor. >> republican congressman mike rogers had to be physically restrained from lunging at congressman matt gaetz on the house floor. and if you remember that was january 6th of this year, the two-year anniversary of the violent attack that took place in that very chamber. and today house republicans appear to have not learned much in the intervening months. today republicans held a closed door meeting to decide how to move forward after two failed votes to elect a new speaker. and during that meeting congressman matt gaetz reportedly stood up to speak at which point illinois republican mike bost almost lunged at him. once again we have reached the lunging at matt gaetz part of the speaker cycle, which i did not know was an actual thing until now. going into that meeting there'd been a lot of speculation republicans might coalesce around a plan to empower congressman patrick mchenry as a temporary speaker.

but coming out of that meeting today, multiple republicans announced that plan is now dead. congressman jim jordan for his part is still attempting to win the gavel despite his historic loss earlier this week. late today he met with the 22 republican holdouts who opposed his candidacy, some of whom say they have received death threats over their opposition. tonight punch bowl news is reporting that every single republican in that meeting told jim jordan that they will not back his bid for speaker, all of which poses a major problem for both jim jordan and the house republican conference. there is apparently no viable republican candidate for speaker of the house. nonetheless, jim jordan's office announced that a third speaker vote is scheduled for tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. joining me now to help me figure what is happening here is south carolina democratic congressman jim clyburn. he's the assistant democratic

leader in the house. congressman clyburn, thank you for joining me tonight. there seems to be so much confusion in the house republican conference. i'm wondering whether you can tell us your understanding of the situation as it stands right now. do you believe that republicans have completely closed the door on the idea of patrick mchenry being made a more medium-term speaker? >> well, thank you very much for having me. it seems that way, and that's very, very regressful. i do believe the american people are looking to us for civility, for cooperation, and quite frank lefor compromise. nobody gets their way all the time, and we should as leaders in this great country demonstrate to the american people that we understand what it is to find common ground and what is required.

now, they're holding on, my republican friends, to a rule set but you've got to have all republicans onboard and not need any democrats. well, that's not the country. this country is pretty evenly divided politically, and we ought to complement our work here by reflecting what the country, it stands for. and so to have a bipartisan path forward would be -- and keep it with the make-up of the american people at this particular juncture -- and i don't know why they're resisting that. >> i have my theories about why they don't want to be bipartisan, but i guess i -- i mean i wonder what happens now. patrick mchenry has said if you guys want me to do the business of the house without formally

investing me with the powers to do that business, which is to say without a vote, i'm not going to do it, i'm quitting, i'm out of here. there is no plan "a" here, congressman. there is no plan "b" and certainly no plan "c." what do you think happens next as far as the house ever functioning again? >> well, from what i've been hearing tonight, it seems as if we're going to meet tomorrow at 10:00 and there's going to be a vote. i'm told the vote will be for speaker that jordan will put his name forward again. well, i'm also told that he's been a meeting with the 20 or 22 people who voted against him, and they all said they're not going going to vote for him. so why would we put the american people through that? why don't we just do something of a temporary basis on an interim basis, and that's all we

need to do, give patrick mchenry the authority he needs for the next few months until maybe the end of the year so that he can get us to doing what we need to do. the president just gave an incredible speech to the american people showing why he sits in that office and demonstrating the results of the meetings he had while in the war zone. and we've got a president going to the war zone who is now sending to us a request for us to do what we need to do to maintain our relationships with our allies across the world and also to do what is necessary to assist israel, and we don't have the wherewithal to get it done. that doesn't make sense. let's put the people of america above our partisan politics and

get this done. and let's revisit politics at a later time. >> given what you just said i would love your reaction to kevin mccarthy who today is blaming democrats for this dysfunction saying every single democrat chose to create this chaos. your response to that? >> well you know, i don't know what kevin is talking about. you may recall the morning after the democrats gave him more votes than his own republicans gave him for his bill to keep the government open. that was not our bill, that was his bill. and we give him more votes for his bill than he got from his own conference. and then he goes on television the next morning blaming democrats for wanting to shut the government down. for some strange reason he seems to be living in another world. nobody watching the leader of the democrats, hakeem jeffries,

reaching out two days ago saying we were willing to be a part of a temporary solution, bring patrick mchenry forward. and he demonstrated in all that he had to say that we democrats are willing to go with a temporary solution to give them time to get their stuff together. it seemed to me he ought to be grateful for that. but seemed to be ungrateful. >> yeah, ungrateful probably being a bit euphemistic and being generous using that acswrektive. congressman, jim clyburn, good luck to you, sir. thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you very much. we're going to need it. >> we sure will. coming up, if you thought house republicans were were crazy, recall donald trump's former lawyer and she agreed to

testify against all her defendants, donald trump, what it could mean for the 45th president, that's next. i'm sholeh, and i lost 75 pounds with golo. i went from a size 20 to a size 6. before golo, nothing seemed to work. i was exercising for over an hour every day.

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goli, taste your goals. the phone was on speaker but we were muted so she couldn't hear us. and, you know, he said like this does sound crazy, doesn't it.

and i think i said, yes, yes, it does. >> that was former white house aide hope hicks testifying to the house january 6th committee recalling when president trump concluded that a certain woman's claims about the 2020 election sounded crazy. tucker carlson before he got fired from fox news called the same woman an unguided missile, dangerous as hell, and a crazy person. and those are just the words i can repeat on television. mr. trump and mr. carlson were both talking about sidney powell, the former election lawyer who is at the center of trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. and despite believing her to be crazy and dangerous as hell and an unguided missile, fox news and more importantly president trump ran with her ideas. less than two weeks after trump lost the election to joe biden, powell joined rudy giuliani and others to claim without evidence that the socialist government of

venezuela and hugo chavez who had been dead for almost a decade at that point, that they interfered in the 2020 election. china, according to powell, was also part of that plot. >> what we are really dealing with here and uncovering more by the day is the massive influence of communist money through venezuela, cuba, and likely china in the interference with our elections here in the united states. >> three years later it still boggles the mind. but even after powell went public with that wack adoodle theory trump considered making sidney powell a special counsel to investigate election fraud. that happened during an infamous white house meeting in december of 2020, a meeting that sidney powell, rudy giuliani, and others colocwale known as team crazy, that they tried to have in secret with president trump. in that meeting powell and

others raised the prospect of seizing voting machines from key counties and deploying the national guard to potentially rerun the 2020 election. white house lawyers and staffers colocwale known as team normal, they had no idea that meeting was taking place, but the second they learned about it, they ran as fast as they could to put a stop to it. powell herself later testified today the january 6th committee while sipping on a diet dr. pepper it should be noted, that during that meeting she also told trump about findings pointing to security fraud in dominion voting machines. she said the president was very interested in information that apparently nobody else had bothered to inform him of. and because of these statements and many other things sidney powell has said she's being sued not by one but by two companies who provided election software to the u.s. during the 2020 election, dominion and smartmatic. ms. powell has now admitted many

of her claims were false, and today she pleaded guilty to six misdemeanor charges of election interference in georgia related to her quest to try to help trump stay in power, specifically her role in breaching voting machine equipment in coffey county, georgia. >> can you please state your true and correct name? >> sidney catherine powell. >> how do you plead to the six counts to commit interference of election duties? >> guilty. >> as part of the deal powell will receive six years probation and must pay a $6,000 fine. most importantly, though, her plea deal requires her to testify truthfully at the trials of any of the other georgia codefendants including donald trump. so now that sidney powell is talking in georgia what does that mean for trump or for his codefendants on team crazy, rudy giuliani, and john eastman? and more to the point, what does it mean for jack smith, the special counsel who is overseeing the federal election

subversion case against donald trump? neil katyal and anna bowers will join me next to talk about the implications of this potentially seismic development. stay with us. seismic development. stay with us

do you understand the state is asking that you truthfully testify at all hearings and proceedings in trials involving the codefendants in this matter and that you have no communication with codefendants, media, or witnesses until this case has been completely closed against all defendants? >> i do. >> that was donald trump's

former lawyer sidney powell in court today pleading guilty to six misdemeanor counts just days before what was supposed to be the start of her criminal trial for election interference in fulton county, georgia. as you just heard one of the conditions of this plea is that she truthfully testify at all hearings, proceedings, and trials against the 17 other codefendants in this case. that, of course, includes donald trump. joining me now are anna bower, legal fellow and correspondent for law fair, and neil katyal, former acting solicitor-general. anna, let me ask you first given the sort of time line here powell's trial is supposed to begin effectively friday or monday. what do you think happened here to precipitate this plea deal? >> right. so we are on the eve of trial. ken chesebro's trial of course is still set to start tomorrow as 450 jurors are set to come into fulton county to fill out

their jury questionnaires. and it's not unusual for defendants to settle or strike a plea deal on the eve of trial. so in some sense this isn't all that surprising. we saw earlier in the week that after weeks of sidney powell arguing that, you know, she didn't have anything to do with the allegations related to the breach of voting systems in coffey county or that it was authorized if she did, judge mcafee handed down a series of orders in which he struck down some of the arguments she made to dismiss those charges based on those types of arguments. so i think that it seems like this is something that happened very quickly. it happened after judge mcafee kind of handed down those legal defeats, so i think that it made sense. it was a cost benefit analysis for sidney powell. these are some of the, you know, most serious charges that any of these defendants were facing because it involves computer

trespass. so when she was looking at seven felonies and possible prison time, i think that she just made a calculation this is what she should have done. >> neil, trump seems confident powell's testimony will be favorable to my overall defense strategies. if trump is on record saying sidney powell sounded crazy does that in any way diminish her utility as a witness? >> no, i think she's going to be a devastating witness. first of all, i think this is legally the smartest decision sidney powell has made in her entire career. for once i've got to commend her for making the right legal choice because it was a no-brainer for her. if the case had gone to trial, i think it might have gone about as well as her challenges to the 2020 election. in a way i to think i disagree a

little bit with anna. i do think this is still surprising because no brainers are exactly what sidney powell would reject. she wasn't really part of a reality based community for many years but now is joining it. and, you know, to me, alex, the most significant thing it's not the plea, it's the six misdemeanors. what sidney powell did is unforgivable. it's not a misdemeanor. there's only one reason i think the prosecutors would give her such a light plea deal, and it's because she's got significant testimony. and if i'm trump or trump's lawyer right now, the thing i'm most worried about is not just she agreed to testify truthfully in all that and future proceedings, it's that last night she recorded a videotape of testimony that was turned over to the prosecutors. and part of this plea agreement requires her not to talk about it with anyone, other defendants, the media, you and

me, whoever. that type i think is of significant interest. and trump can say what he wants about her diminished credibility, but remember as you just said in your earlier clip, alex, trump tried to make her special counsel over the entire thing. so good luck with that one, mr. trump. >> anna, when we talk about ken chesebro his trial is of right now full steam ahead. do you get the sense there's buyers remorse in asking for a speedy trial if you're ken chesebro given he's the cheese stands alone as it were? >> i'm not quite sure, alex. i reached out earlier today to chesebro's attorneys. they were not yet prepared to comment. i will say this was something i think took everyone off-guard including i think multiple defense attorneys. so i think that they were taking some time to process this news. but, you know, ken chesebro has a very different case than

sidney powell did. he had previously asked to be severed from sidney powell. he wanted to stand alone, and indeed the cheese is now standing alone, and i think, you know, there's potential upside for him there because some of the more serious allegations about coffee county will have maybe les of a spotlight in this upcoming trial, so he can try to minimize the seniorness of that now he's no longer standing next to sidney powell, but all is quiet in terms of that legal team at the moment. and we're all kind of wondering, you know, where they'll go from here. >> what is this -- how does this affect jack smith's case, neil? she's one of the unnamed coconspiratorteres in that case. >> yeah, i suspect very much sidney powell tried to do a global deal with the local and

federal prosecutors. you almost in every circumstance want to do that, and i suspect jack smith said no. just reading the tea leaves here but probably ms. smith required her to plead guilty to a felony, and that was something georgia prosecutors weren't insisting upon. now anything she says in georgia including on that videotape and in future proceedings, jack smith can of course introduce. so there's a way in which jack smith gets to have his cake and eat it, too, should he decide to go after her as i suspect that he will. so i think one thing to worry about is just kind of where powell's testimony will go. but another thing if you're trump that you're scared about is this now the start of a domino effect? we know in conspiracy cases and i wrote a whole journal article about it how one person starts to plead and everyone starts to follow. so trump has to worry not just about powell but everyone else.

>> 17 people who may be willing to join the reality based community. thank you for joining me tonight. when we come back, new reporting in the atlantic suggests hamas' brutal attack in southern israel did not play out the way the terror group may have intended. the author of that piece joins me next. stay with us. of that piece jois me next. stay with us

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according to new reporting in the atlantic today, hamas may not have had a plan for the extraordinary hostage situation it now finds itself in. quote, a hostage taking manual that was recovered in the aftermath of the hamas attacks suggests the group's hostage taking did not go according to plan. the hannual suggests the group first intended not to spirit all of them into gaza but instead to take them hostage where they were found inside israel possibly for a protracted standoff. we should note msnbc has not seen this document. the atlantic reports it obtained a copy from an israeli defense official. joining me now is graham wood, staff writer at the atlantic. graham, thank you for making the time. i found this fascinating. i wonder if you could elaborate on what exactly it appears hamas may have been planning for visa

vi of the hostages? >> this manual that is emblazoned with the logo of a subunit of hamas' military arm, it suggests that what hamas was planning to do was to on site in the places where they attacked, in the communities where they attacked have hostage sieges. they were supposed to concentrate the hostages in israeli territory and expect to sort of camp out. they'd have to have food. they'd have to have water. they'd have to have flashlights, batteries. and instead that plan was just thrown in the trash because they had such great success in penetrating israeli territory they were able to take the hostages and bring them back to gaza in much larger numbers than they were expecting. >> it sounds like that planning, the food and water, et cetera, those were resources they intended on either seizing or bringing them with them into israel. what are the implications on hostages presumably being held in gaza if there's no advanced planning to actually house

hostages in that area from the outset? >> yeah, so remember there are 203 hostages at current count, and it appears hamas did not expect to have them. i mean israeli society is reeling at the number of people who been brought to gaza, and hamas, too, must be considering its luck so great it really doesn't know what to do with it. i mean obviously they're going to negotiate for the lives of those hostages and going to use them as human shields. the manual even said they should use them as human shields, but they have this incredible bonanza of israeli life that they can now deal with. it's just not in the terms they were expecting to deal with it originally. >> the manual also seems to suggest no prior knowledge that other jihadist terror groups might enter the territory as well and take their own hostages. is that right? that sort of seems like something that happened

spontaneously. >> it's not just other jihadist groups. ordinary gazan civilians saw there was a break in the line and they took part in killing and torture. what we get the sense of there was unprecedented, unexpected success for this operation where they thought they were going to go in, they thought they were going to meet professional israeli resistance and in fact they spent hours looting and killing with impunity and that was not something they planned for. >> i know you've done extensive reporting of these terrorist networks. because of this is the idf how confident are you this is effectively an authentic document? >> this document was circulating before the israeli defense forces authenticated for me.

i was able to find it elsewhere. there were parts hamas would not have released. there's nothing that marks it as obviously false, but the idf said, yes, this was recovered from hamas property recovered in israeli territory after the 7th of october. i'm pretty confident it is true and not a forgery. >> it is an even more devastating situation than we possibly could fathom for these hostages. thank you so much for the reporting and making the time tonight. i appreciate it. >> thank you, alex. that does it for us tonight. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. we must without equivocation denounce anti-semitism. we must also without equivocation denounce