and you know i think other ammunition is coming in. and i think the israeli people are looking at the americans with such admiration at this point of time because all of these amazing -- this amazing help, direct help and indirect help and releasing people, that's another help and assistance. so it's very helpful. >> tal schneider, thank you so much, of "the times of israel." the breaking news during our hour, judith and natalie raanan were released by hamas, two americans released by hamas now in israel. they're the only two hostages that have so far been released. they were just visiting a kibbutz. they are not israeli citizens. just american citizens. we're waiting on the state department. it should start any moment now. while we wait, let me toss it to "deadline white house" which starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york.

my colleague katy tur just indicated, we have major breaking news that we're covering. two american hostages have been released by hamas. they have been held by the terror group for nearly two weeks, since hamas stormed into communities in southern israel killing nearly 1,400 people and kidnapping more than 200. u.s. secretary of state antony blinken speaks right now about it. >> citizens held by hamas since october 7th were released. these two americans are now safely in the hands of israeli authorities in israel. we expect the team from the u.s. embassy to see them very shortly. over the coming hours, they'll receive any support and assistance they need, and of course we're very anxious to be able to reunite them with their loved ones. we welcome their release. we share in the relief that their families, friends, and loved ones are feeling. there are still ten additional americans who remain unaccounted for in this conflict. we know that some of them are

being held hostage by hamas, along with an estimated 200 other hostages held in gaza. they include men, women, young boys, young girls, elderly people from many nations. every single one of them should be released. since the earliest hours of this crisis, the president has made clear that he will do everything possible to secure the release of every hostage. during my own recent travel to the region i emphasized the urgency and importance of this to the united states and pressed our partners to do everything they can to help us secure the release. since that time, we continue to work relentlessly with partners to do just that. i can't speak publicly about the details of these efforts. i know you understand that. but the urgent work to free every single american, to free all other hostages, continues,

as does our work to secure the safe passage out of gaza for the americans who are trapped there. in this particular instance, i want to thank the government of qatar for their very important assistance. when i was in israel last week, i met with the families of u.s. citizens that hamas has taken hostage. president biden, too, had the opportunity to hear directly from the families. it's impossible to adequately put into words the agony they're feeling of not knowing the fate of their loved ones. worrying relentlessly about them, for their satisfy safet -- safety, security, wellbeing. no family anywhere should have to experience this torture. what i shared with the families as the president did, as well, is the entire united states government will work every minute of every day to secure their release, to bring their loved ones home. they have my solemn pledge, those who continue to have loved ones held hostage by hamas, that

we'll continue to do that. working as though these family members were our own. with that, happy to take a few questions. >> whether secretary -- >> thanks for coming down, mr. secretary. you said you couldn't talk about specific details, but i'm wondering, you did thank the government of qatar. i'm wondering since you were there and they have an office, they host a hamas office, if you could elaborate a little bit on what their role was, and if you continue to think that that channel there, them having an office there, is worthwhile. and then secondly, a lot has been made by you, by the president, by other officials about how it is important for israel once -- if and when it begins a ground incursion into gaza for it to respect the rules

of war. and i am curious if you think that to date, even before that ground incursion that started, if israel is respecting those rules and laws. thank you. >> matt, thanks for the questions. you'll understand that because this is an ongoing effort, an ongoing effort to get hostages -- americans who are hostages in this moment in gaza out to secure their release to get them back with their families, i can't go into any details about what we're doing, how we're doing it. and all i can say with regard to qatar is in this instance, we very much appreciate their assistance. beyond that, i really can't -- i really can't say because, again, we want to focus to making sure that we're getting those who remain hostage back home and with their loved ones. that's the single most important thing. with regard to how israel's conducting its operations, i think you heard the president

speak to this clearly. you've heard me speak to this very clearly. we've said we believe strongly that israel has not only the right but the obligation to defend itself against what -- it's very hard to put into words the nature of the barbarity of the attacks, and they do have the obligation to defend themselves against it, to do whatever they can to try to make sure this doesn't happen again. but we've been very clear, as well, that the way israel does this matters, and in particular it's important that operations be conducted in accordance with international law, humanitarian law, the law of war as applicable, and that everything be done to minimize the loss of civilian life. and we telling to focus on that just as we're also focusing on getting assistance in to people in gaza who need it. there will be plenty of time to make assessments about how these operations were conducted.

but i can just say for part of the united states, that it continues to be important to us. again, it's what distinguishes us, distinguishes israel from terrorist groups like hamas which not only have absolutely no concern for innocent human life, they intentionally use innocent human lives to hide behind, to use as quite literally as human shields knowing that civilians invariably are going to suffer in conflict. >> just following up on that. hamas has issued a statement, and i know the huge caveat that it's a terror group and one does not attach credibility to that, but they have said that all the hostages, the civilian hostages, which include the americans, could be released, that this could be the start of something

bigger if there are no air strikes. would this be a moment where if -- under israel's discretion obviously, it would be wise to pause, to give it more time to see if this is a moment since the ground invasion has not started? should even the air strikes be stopped to see if you could get more people out? and it was notable without going into details that in the president's statement he said, he expressed his thanks to israel, to qatar, rather, in partnership with israel. notable connection there. the obvious inference is that they were working together on this. does this give you hope that despite everything that's happened, that there could be a broader relationship and avoid a wider war? >> thanks, andrea. so two things there. first, it's very simple --

hostages should be released immediately and unconditionally. that's been our position from day one. it remains our position. and to your point, i would not take anything that hamas says at face value. i'm not sure anyone in this room would take it face value or report something that i.s.i.s. had said. same applies to hamas. our position is clear. every hostage needs to be released and needs to be released now. there is no doubt from my own travels in the region that one of the important things throughout this very difficult period and since the -- the unconscionable attack by hamas, is to continue to find ways for countries to cooperate,

coordinate when it's in their interests to do so, and we'll continue to look to that. any cooperation that we can elicit, that facilitates the release of hostages, any cooperation that we can elicit that secures the provision of humanitarian assistance to the men, women, and children in gaza who so desperately need it. we work on that every day. and i think we can say that we've seen some of that cooperation. the broader question, though, i think, is usually important because what's abundantly clear is the vast majority of countries, the vast majority of people want the same thing. they want a region where countries are working together, where relations are normalized, where there's greater integration, where people are working together, studying together, traveling, doing business. overwhelming majority of people want that. and we want to see, as well, the

rights and aspirations of the palestinian people fulfilled in the context of that kind of region. and that's one vision, and it remains very much alive in every conversation that i had. the alternative is equally clear. and it's very stark. it's hamas, it's hezbollah, it's iran, it's destruction, it's death, it's terrorism, it's darkness. so the more we are able to make real that first vision, the more i'm convinced that that's the vision that everyone or virtually everyone will subscribe to. so even as we are working through this challenge, this crisis, it's important to keep that vision alive because it's important that people know that there is an alternative, and that everything that they hope for and that they aspire to is going to be best addressed through what i just described that first vision. we'll continue to do that.

>> mr. secretary, what can you tell us about the condition of these two americans who have been released? what is their health status? and do you have any details on the condition of the americans who are being held hostage? have you seen any proof of life on them? and then on the rafah crossing, what is the holdup in operationalizing this deal, and will we see it open this weekend? >> i can't speak to the condition of the two hostages who were just released. first out of respect for their privacy. second because we haven't had a chance yet, maybe it's happening as we speak, to get our own team in there to see them, to evaluate them, and most importantly to reunite them with their loved ones. i'm sure that will come out in the hours, certainly the days ahead. but i don't have anything for you on that now. nor do i have anything for you on the status of or condition of americans who continue to be held by hamas. with regard to the rafah crossing, as you know, when some

of us were traveling together in the region over the past week, getting assistance moving was among my top priorities. and we worked very hard with the government of israel, the government of egypt to do just that. and we secured an understanding that we would develop a plan to move assistance. that understanding was cemented by president biden when he was in israel and also speaking to president al sisi of egypt. in the time since we've been working relentlessly with ambassador david satterfield on the ground, working with the united nations, with egypt, with israel, to put that into motion. and my expectation is that you'll see that moving soon. thank you. thanks, everyone. >> thank you. >> u.s. secretary of state antony blinken on the release of two american hostages. notably wouldn't say much about

the role of qatar, but did say, quote, we appreciate their assistance. pressed by the very skilled press corps there that included our colleague, andrea mitchell, about whether israel's following the rules of war. secretary of state antony blinken said israel has the right and the obligation to defend themselves. but the big news today, obviously, the release of these two american hostages. listening along with us, former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense, jeremy bash. also joining us former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi, frank vigviglusi, a foreign correspondent raf sanchez is here. raf, let me start with you. do you have any reporting on where or how the two newly released hostages are right now with? >> reporter: right, so they were released by hamas into the custody of the international committee of the red cross. the red cross took them to the gaza border where they were met

by israeli troops. they were taken to an israeli military base in central israel. and as the secretary of state indicated just a minute ago, we are expecting a team from the u.s. embassy in jerusalem to get to them now. it is not clear exactly what kind of medical condition both judith and natalie are in. that will obviously be the first priority, making sure that they have all the medical care they need after what has undoubtedly been just a harrowing two weeks for them since they were taken on october 7th. and the priority after that, reunite them with their family, and then get them home to evanston, illinois. i can tell you, nicole, this unfolded over a series of hours starting at 7:42 p.m. role time, 12:42 eastern. we got an update from hamas saying that they were about to release what they called some important news. and it was followed shortly afterwards by simultaneous statements in english and arabic which is important.

this was a carefully choreographed pr move by the terrorist organization hamas. this statement in english and in arabic saying they were releasing an american mother and american daughter. they framed it as a humanitarian jetsture, and -- gesture and said it was a rebuke of president biden's comments that he made in israel earlier in the week. he condemned hamas. condemned the atrocities. you may be able to hear, we are hearing just the thunderous sounds of what we think are israeli air strikes in northern gaza, literally the glass at our hotel is shaking here. we're safe. there's no sirens. but it underscores that even as this delicate hostage diplomacy is continuing, the war continues also. but the fact that there are 200 odd hostages in gaza has been a massively complicating factor for israeli decision-makers trying to figure out how and when to launch this expected

ground offensive, and it may very well be that hamas succeeds in what appears to be its goal here which is by releasing two hostages, they raise the prospect of, well, if israel delays the ground offensive by another day, could another couple of hostages be delayed, and another day's delay, could that lead to more. as secretaries blinken indicated, there clearly are secret negotiations under way, back channels being worked with the qataris in this case, possibly with other third parties in other cases. if you are in israel's war cabinet tonight, one of the questions you are facing is does giving the order to invade gaza preclude any hope of further releases like the one we're seeing tonight. >> i've written down everything you just said. i mean, this carefully choreographed pr move and the release in english and arabic and rebuke of president biden's speech it just brings home that so much of what drives the terrorists now is their own

reflection in social media and in the international headlines. and i wonder if you can sort of play it back the other way for me. how is the release of two american hostages by hamas in a highly welcome development, how is that being received by the families of the israeli hostages? >> reporter: well, the israel hostages' family forum, an umbrella group, put out a short statement. they say they, of course, welcome the release of these hostages. they are full of joy for the families of these hostages, and in the same breath they say there are 200 people being held inside of gaza. the old, the young, the sick, the wounded. as you and i talked about the other night, there is an 8-year-old boy named ohad who is turning 9 on monday. he is one of some 20 children being held right now by hamas inside of gaza. these families were quick to underscore that just because two

americans have been released does not absolve hamas of what they call the war crime of holding these 200 odd -- there was a very powerful, symbolic moment in tel aviv earlier. the families of the hostages sat a vast chabot table, it's sundown here, we're into chabot, the holy day in the jewish faith. they set a vast chabot table with 200 places for the 200 hostages who should be at their family's own shabbat tables and are being held captive in gaza. >> i have that image up now. before the breaking news of the secretary of state's press conference, importantly broke over to the top of the hour. we planned to start with these images. it gets me back to one more question i have for you. how is the -- what is sort of the psyche of the nation tonight? tomorrow will be two weeks since this heinous terrorist attack.

>> reporter: you know, israel is a nation with nuclear weapons. it is the strongest military power in the region. but it is just undeniable that hamas is in control of the tempo right now. you and i talked a couple of nights ago about when hamas released that first hostage video of this 21-year-old woman, mia shem, french israeli citizen. within seconds almost of this video being released by hamas it was all over israeli national television. people watching in horror. they knew this moment was coming, and at the same time, the families telling our own lester holt, the family of this young woman, telling our own lester holt that for all the agony of seeing this -- their daughter in captivity, in pain, pleading for her life, there was the joy of knowing that she is alive. it is shabbat tonight. the israeli government normally does not communicate on shabbat. it doesn't put out public statements. we don't normally see the prime minister. but hamas put out this

statement, they released the hostages. and pretty soon you had the israeli military spokesman on television. you had a statement from the prime minister's office. and it shows that hamas has gained a lot of leverage here. they see these people as human bargaining chips. and they will continue to play those chips in whatever way they think most benefits their cause. >> it's a sobering but really important piece of information to keep in mind in all of our conversations. i know it's late there. if you need to leave us, i certainly understand. if you want to stick around, i want to bring in jeremy bash and frank viglusi into our conversation. jeremy bash, there is this excruciatingly two-sided human reaction -- elation that two human beings who were visiting family and 85th birthday and started to live a nightmare just about 13.5 days ago have been released. the other side of that excruciating duality is that they are human bargaining chips,

as raf explains. tell me how we should be processing this development. >> i think the ultimate way to process it is to look at that shabbat table with 200 seats, but not just 200 seats for the hostages that remain, but highchairs, bottles, baby bottles, sippy cups, because hamas is holding 20 children. so of course for the families of judith and natalie raanan this is a happy moment, but i don't think we should be too exuberant. i don't think we should give hamas any credit whatsoever. we should thank the government of qatar for its work. anybody who had a hand in saving these lives. but fundamentally until hamas releases every single hostage, it's not going to be a good news story. now i would just add that with respect to the israeli war cabinet's decisionmaking which

your correspondent talked about, i think maybe, just maybe there is one move that israel could make which is they could say you have three days to release every single hostage, and if you do not release every single hostage, we know fundamentally this is not a good faith effort, and we will wait for three days. if you do not release every single hostage in three days, then we are going to go in and conduct our counterterrorism operations as if you have no hostages. and i think that the only thing that the israeli government could do that would be in response to this move. but otherwise, i don't think hamas is going to earn nor do they deserve any goodwill for this move. >> frank, a hostage negotiation always an intricate, dangerous endeavor. this is sort of 3d, right. this involves multiple governments. this involves taking the word on any of the logistics involved in the release from a terrorist group, literally. talk about what has happened

today and pick up off jeremy's point for me, please. >> yeah. so we all share in the really good news, really unexpected and kudos to anyone involved in the negotiations. i can't emphasize enough how complex and how many layers of nuance are involved in the intricacies of something like this with qatar and israel and hamas and the united states all involved. but let me echo some things here. terrorists don't release hostages as a goodwill jetsture. they -- gesture. they release hostages because they think it's in their best interests. so everything we think about this has to be thought about as what was this for hamas. and absolutely they feel like this is a public relations strategy. they think it's going to buy them some time. and that's all great. but the reality is they chose to release americans first for a reason.

they could have released anybody else that they wanted to, but this was done deliberately. we're not sure why, but if it's designed to divide israel or pit israelis against americans or do something like that, we've got to see through it. and we've got to understand that. now, let me get very kind of logistical and practical with what's right in front of us. let's talk about the debriefing process. and without getting into details that would jeopardize more hostages, i can't tell you how excited i am about the potential intelligence that would be gleaned from two hostages who can come back and hopefully share everything they know. even if they knowledge they don't know much. even if they say our head its were draped, we were blindfolded, that doesn't matter. they know things. they've heard things. nicknames, other hostages in another room. they heard background noises. they can count how long it took to get out of where they were, and that can help judge

distance. all of this will be covered, and it will likely because these are american hostages, will likely involve the fbi and other agencies of the u.s. intelligence community sharing jointly in real time with their israeli partners what they're hearing in the debriefing. everyone's going to get this at once. but why the fbi because, believe it or not, a u.s. crime has been -- occurred here. a u.s. violation. that is the kidnapping or harming of u.s. citizens internationally for the purpts of terrorism. that's a federal crime on the books. now, i'm not naive, i don't think that, you know, we're going to necessarily get the specific hamas captors out of there alive and try them in u.s. court. but we have to act like that's possible someday. so that's why you'll see the bureau and other u.s. agencies involved in the debriefing. >> and jeremy, do you apply the same degree of skepticism that

raf and frank have articulated? raf described it as a, quote, carefully choreographed pr move of hamas and president biden's speech to hamas' release today? >> i agree that was their objective. i don't think they're going to succeed because to frank's point no right thinking person would take that at face value. and we can see right through it. i'd also note that, you know, one of the things i was kind of -- it was interest being this development today is that clearly hamas is in control of all the hostages. they submitted these statements in english and arabic. it was a carefully orchestrated move. they coordinated with the red cross. they obviously had outreach from the government of qatar where the others at the secretary of state thanked. so -- there had been stories over the last couple of days that, well, hamas isn't really in control of all these, there were some freelancing, some being held by islamic jihad. we can't sort of hold hamas responsible for all these hostages. in fact, we know now that we can

and we should. >> frank, i want you to pick up for me on what happens -- i like your logistical expertise. medical care obviously will be a first priority. but i imagine psychological, you know, and traumatic treatment will be needed and required, as well. can you just talk a little bit about what actually happens to hostages upon release? >> sure. in fact, the fbi and the u.s. intelligence community since about 2015 has had a hostage recovery fusion cell that's dealt with the release of over 200 american hostages around the world. so this is well rehearsed. the u.s. embassy will be involved, as well as the israeli government. and you'll see intelligence community and state department physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists involved. and here's the dilemma and balance. you've got a real-time

life-and-death crisis in front of you, and you, of course, are chomping at the bit to get the debriefing done. 100 questions, you want to throw at these hostages. and then of course the medical professionals saying, hold on, the number-one priority is assessing these folks medically, seeing where they're at. we've got to meet them where they're at. if they're traumatized, shocked, harmed, that has to take precedent first. so that discussion's going on right now. >> jeremy, let me give you one last word on this. we lost you, jeremy. frank, i'll give you the last word here. what would you sort of -- what would you -- what would your voice be or your advice be in the room about -- i think we layover onto the israeli military operation these assumptions absent any intelligence, absent any stream of information that as humans we think, well, if they could get the hostages out, they have an obligation to wait. and i imagine for experts and people that are actually in the

room that isn't that black and white it isn't that either/or. what would your voice be sort of sharing and counseling at this moment? >> yeah. this requires the wisdom of solomon not to lightly take an old testament reference here. look, there's lives at stake, 300 lives at stake, approximately. so this battle of the mind is going on. how long do we wait, how much do we negotiate, will it just be the americans hamas is willing to negotiate about or not? when do we go in and know precise locations and deal with hostage takers that we know exist right now? all of that going on. but a couple of thoughts. you cannot trust hamas. absolutely not. so any carrot they're holding out about we're going to release somebody later, we'll do this or that, just discount it. unless it's happening as jeremy said, unless it's happening now or three days from now, we're not discussing it. that would be my advice. negotiating with terrorists,

particularly hamas, simply doesn't work well. >> we thank jeremy bash who had to go. we thank you, frank, for talking us through this extraordinary moment. we really were so lucky to get to call on you. in the next hour we'll talk to john kirby from the national security council with his first reaction from the white house. before we head to break, here's what we know about the hostages released today. as other folks have indicated they are judith and natalie raanan, a mother and daughter from evanston, illinois. they were visiting a kibbutz in southern israel for judith's mom's 85th birthday when the hamas terrorist attack began. the israeli government says that they were released to the red cross and then received at the israel-gaza border today. they are currently on their way to a military base inside israel. negotiations for the two were mediated by the government of qatar which says in a statement talks are ongoing for the release of more hostages. and as my colleague, raf sanchez, reported on our air moments ago, judith and natalie

are also family members of our colleague, veteran correspondent martin fletcher. here's what martin told my colleague katy tur about all of this moments ago. >> at the moment the mother and sister -- sorry, the mother and sister are on their way to the border with gaza to meet judith and natalie. they haven't met them yet, as far as we know. but they're on the way. it's going to happen any moment. the family was, of course, was -- the cousin told me shocked, it's happy, unbelievable, we're celebrating. i said, how much are you drinking, and they said we're not celebrating too much yet because we don't know what condition their family members are in. are they hurt, they don't know. so they're not celebrating yet. they're getting ready to celebrate. they're certainly celebrating that they're alive and well. >> that was our colleague, former colleague, nbc news

correspondent martin fletcher. when we come back, fulton county district attorney fani willis has secured another, this would be the third and it's a big one, guilty plea in her far-reaching case against the trump criminal enterprise. this time another trump coup attorney, kenneth chesebro, was the one who flipped just as jury selection in his trial was set to begin. that big development, we'll tell you about it next. and later in the broadcast, jim jordan's republican colleagues have voted against him again, and this time they're giving him back his ball and telling him to go home. he's dropping out of the race for house speaker. we'll bring you all of the latest updates from capitol hill. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a break. don't go anywhere today. sinesseg solutions today. that's why they choose t-mobile for business. mlb partners with t-mobile to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. aaa relies on t-mobile's network

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another one bites the dust in fulton county, georgia. fulton county da fani willis has secured a second guilty plea in two days. her third so far in that sprawling rico case against donald trump's alleged criminal enterprise. this time from a previously unknown but vitally important architect of the entire coup plot, the legal architecture of it. trump attorney kenneth chesebro is pleading guilty to a single felony charge of conspiracy to commit filing false documents. he'll receive five years probation in exchange for becoming a state witness and

providing documents and evidence. it is the first felony plea in fani willis' case, and the charge that chesebro is pleading guilty to involves the filing of faults slates of trump electors, an alleged conspiracy involving lawyer john eastman, rudy giuliani, and, of course, donald j. trump himself. thanks to some intrepid reporting from "the washington post" and others, we know that chesebro wrote the blueprint if setting up fake slates and investors and underpinned team trump's entire case for overturning the results of the 2020 presidential election on january 6th. the final report of the january 6th select committee says this, quote, chesebro's first memo on novemberh suggested that the trump cam could gain a few extra weeks for litigation to challenge wisconsin's election results so lon as a wisconsin slate of republican nominees to the electoral college met december 14th to cast

placeholder electoral college votes on a contingentbasis. but ultimately, chesebroet his sights on january 6th. the select committee's final report notes, quotes, on december 9th, chesebro penned a second memo which suggested another purpose for fake electoral college votes on january h. it stated that unauthorized trump electors in these states could be retroactively recognized by a court, the state legislature, or congress. less than a month later the fake slates of trump electors were a topic of conversation in the oval office. here's how rnc chairwoman romney mcdaniel described a conversation she had with donald trump and john eastman a few days before the electoral college and fake trump electors met on december 14th. >> what did the president say when he called you? >> essentially he turned the call over to mr. eastman who then proceeded to talk about the

importance of the rnc helping the campaign gather these contingent electors in case any of the legal challenges that were ongoing changed the result of any of the case. i think more just helping them reach out and assemble them. but the -- my understanding is the campaign did take the lead, and we just were helping them in that role. >> turning our coverage, solicitor general neil cotsyel is here, top justice department official an droos drew weiss. and tim hafey. we talked about there yesterday in the -- i think it was your view, andrew and tim, that the plea with sidney powell might have underwhelmed.

this was a felony plea and chesebro brings us straight to eastman and trump. i wonder about this development, tim. >> exactly right. i think it's a bigger deal than the powell plea because of the substance of it. he agreed to being part of the conspiracy. you're not in a conspiracy alone. you are in a conspiracy with others. and the proffer put forth by the government in open court today says using the conspiracy with former president trump, with rudy giuliani, with john eastman. this points a finger directly, an admission of chesebro conspiring with others. it's a felony, not a misdemeanor. it involves the fake electors, kind of the core of this misguided legal strategy as opposed to the coffey county thing that was the subject of sidney powell's plea. i think it's a very significant, more significant resolution and, frankly, more serious in terms of threats to the other defendants than yesterday's plea. >> you know, andrew, i asked you about sort of proscue material

inertia and the power of -- scott hall was the first, i came on the air, i was googling who he was. of course he takes us right to the break-in at coffey county. sidney powell, whack doodle as she is, takes us straight to the voting machines, but it's misdemeanors. now we're getting a bigger fish. a legal architect. someone who liz cheney in hearings described as plopped into the justice department after trump had lost re-election to carry out the coup. are you feeling like that question about inertia is starting to be answered by fani willis? >> absolutely. you know, this is the strategy when you indict big is that good things happen. and you have people who start flipping, and they roll onto each other. and as tim pointed out, the reason this is more significant than sidney powell is because if you look at count 15, what he pled to, the other people involved in that conspiracy are

names that we know up to and including the former president. and as you mentioned, this goes to the very heart of the conspiracy of the january 6th scheme. it relates to the fake elector scheme, it relates to the jeff clark doj scheme it relates to the pressure on mike pence. it is really core, and you have somebody who is a lawyer, a key architect saying i committed a crime in connection with the fake electors scheme. so the pressure on if not directly donald trump because we know that chesebro, at least from all accounts, had no direct dealings with donald trump, but he had direct dealings with other people -- rudy giuliani, john eastman. rolling up, this is how you make cases. you move up the chain, and that is exactly what we're seeing. so this is an incredibly strong development on a core part of the case. it's not coffey county, it's not

a small piece of the scheme. it is core. so this is really quite a big development. >> you know, andrew, had a feeling and this is like the hardwiring of my brain -- maybe someday i can unwire it -- of that first summer going into fall of the mueller probe. i think it was papadopoulos, then gaetz, then manafort, by thanksgiving it was flynn. the pacing seems to be -- the tempo between hall and sidney is longer than between powell and chesebro. i know some of that is jury selection was set to begin. i wonder what you predict would happen next. >> well, it's certainly the case that this is -- things happen sort of on the courtroom steps. so you know, it's not surprising that this would happen on both sides. it leads to a lot of good things on the government side. they avoid a four to five-month trial. they avoid laying out the evidence for all the other defendants to see.

but of course on the -- on the defense side they avoid the risk of a conviction and going to jail. remember these are pleas where although some -- with powell it's misdemeanors, with chesebro it's a felony. but both are no-jail pleas if they live by their commitments. so i do think that the next thing we're going to see is a bit of a lull because we don't have any more trial dates that are set yet in georgia. so i don't think we shoulbe expecting to see aot of developments there because we don't have that time pressure. but i do think that the next thing is that we're going to see the march trial for donald trump. and one of the best things that happened today is that -- is really on the federal side. if you're jack smith, you have these potential new witnesses, but you also have all the evidence and the messiness of

the georgia case happening as you're preparing your case. the next big piece is the federal case which, you know, we know from tanya chutkin, she is adamant that that date is sticking. >> and neil, obviously the only fish involved in that one is the biggest one of all, donald trump. i keep thinking of two things, and i really try to keep this pledge to my viewers to not gratuitously show anyone donald trump. but when he goes off about flippers, i mean, here you go, three in basically six weeks, three flippers. then pick up on andrew's point, how this might benefit jack smith's case against the biggest fish of all, donald trump. >> well, i think today's developments are a big, big deal. and if you're donald trump right now, i think you're basically to use the technical legal term freaking out. and it's because you've got these two, you know, people who cannot be painted in any wa

shape, or form as being part of the democrats or the deep state or whatever. these are kind of whackadoodle trump people, s powell and kenneth chesebro. they wehement in saying they did nothing wrong for so long. now both are pleading guilty to crimes and agreeing to cooperate with the investigators. sidney powell, indeed, has already as part of her deal taped an interview giving testimony and has agreed to give further testimony as the case proceeds. so i think that this testimony from both of them is going to be important not just in georgia, not just against giuliani, and i suspect ultimately trump, but it's evidence that jack smith can use, as well, in his prosecution. and to me the most telling thing for why i think this evidence is so significant is that the prosecutors in georgia agreed to, as andrew was saying, a no-jail sentence for both of them. i think the only way you do that for both of these folks is if

you think they've got significant evidence to give against higher ups. and fani willis was billed to all americans as someone who really understood rico, really understood how to bring conspiracy cases and start flipping people. and i think we are seeing the tangible proof of how she was billed right now. >> because i don't know -- next time i'm going to get the three of you in one virtue room. i'm going to ask you to stick around. we have breaking news to share with our viewers. you're looking at the first photo of judith and natalie raanan since their release. the two have been held captive by hamas for nearly two weeks. they are the first of more than 200 hostages to have been freed. take that in. wow. quick break for us. we'll be right back. r us we'll be rhtig back. there are s that go better... together. like your workplace benefits... and retirement savings. with voya, considering all your financial choices together... can help you be better prepared for unexpected events. voya. well planned.

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conquer a 6 course menu. rule over what you write with the smooth writing, longest lasting gel ink pen in america. do you g2? we're back with so much legal brain power i don't know what to do with it. tim, let me start with you. andrew brought us to the spring trial of donald trump before judge tanya chutkin and the federal election interference case. does jack smith consider chesebro as a potential witness against trump, and how do juries receive someone who has pleaded guilty to the same crimes defendant is charged with? >> jack smith absolutely looks to chesebro as a witness. he potentially is an important rebuttal witness, nicole, because he might have very direct evidence that defeats

this reliance on advice of counsel defense. there's email traffic between chesebro and eastplan and others in which chesebro admits that this fake elector strategy will never survive in court. i think he puts the chance of a wisconsin challenge at less than 1%. he goes on to say that this is a political move, that -- so chaos, to put pressure on the supreme court. so he is not putting forth good faith this is a legal argument that might work. he's saying this creates chaos in which the court might get out of the way as a political question, and that is directly relevant to intent -- president can't rely on a lawyer who says the strategy will not work. so i think it's very relevant to jack smith. there's no question he'll want to mine what chesebro says or even get a separate agreement with him to testify in federal court. >> you know, it also -- i think, andrew, one of the things we've talked about so much is if trump

can say that he believed he'd won -- it also gets at how the entire ethos of everyone involved in the coup knew three things for sure. one, that trump had lost. two, there was no fraud. and three, that the political path and the pressure campaign was all they had to work with. >> absolutely. but i will say just to complicate the picture for jack smith is it seems very clear that sidney powell and kenneth chesebro don't have what's called a global resolution. in other words, they resolved their state criminal liability if they testify truthfully. but they clearly don't yet have federal protection, and both of them are widely reported to be unindicted co-conspirators in donald trump's indictment in d.c. so it's going to be a very interesting strategy for jack

smith whether he is willing to essentially immunize them, essentially strike the same kind of deal where they don't get any potential jail time if they testify truthfully, or whether he's going to insist on more as a condition of sort of going forward. so i do think there is going to be a calculus that he has to make about how much he needs their testimony and what kind of deal he is willing to give them in order to gain their testimony. but i agree very much with tim that there is -- there's an awful lot that particularly kenneth chesebro can give to the federal government in terms of that case. >> neil, i want to build on your -- your legal analysis about a freak-out. i think two things. you know, one, cue the witness tampering. there is usually the juncture at which a witness comes forward for their own legal purposes, they agree to cooperate or testify before tim and trump

begins to harass them publicly and privately. what are the rep d.c. for that? what happens -- remedies for that? what happens if trump does what he usually does? >> yeah. i suspect trump will violate -- and he's already under two gag orders, one which would apply to him attacking chesebro or sidney powell or anything like that, which we'll have a violation of the gag order before we have a new speaker of the house of representatives. >> good bet. >> i think that the judge there will have -- yeah, i think the judge there, judge chutkin, does have remedies. today trump was fined $5 thigh for violating a gag order in new york in an unrelated case. judge chutkin i think would do something similar, some sort of -- for an inadvertent violation, something like a $5,000 fine. but i think these ones will not be inadvertent. i think they'll be serious. judge chutkin will have to draw the line. trump has been saying make my day, jail me. i suspect that we're going to reach that point sooner rather than later in which you've got

the former president violating a direct order from the judge in order to try and spoil the jury, influence the jury, and influence this prosecution in untoward ways. if that happens, i know it will be a tough thing for judge chutkin to do and seeking the jailing of a former president of the united states. but she has to -- me to person can be above the law in this country, and that is our obligation to do. trump's already skated away with a lot of special treatment as it is. if this were any other criminal defendant i think he'd already be facing very serious restrictions on his liberty. >> neil, andrew, and tim, thank you all so much for spending time with us on these developments. we're so grateful. happy friday. when we come back, much more on our top story, the release of the two american hostages. we're learning that in the last few minutes president joe biden spoke with their family. john kirby from the white house is our guest next. stay with us. ur guest next. stay with us

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i know these conflicts can seem far away. it's natural to ask why does this matter to america. let me share with you why making sure israel and ukraine succeed is vital for america's national security. you know, history has taught us that when terrorists don't pay a price for their terror, when dictators don't pay a price for their aggression, they cause more chaos and death and more destruction. they keep going, and the cost and the threats to america and the world keep rising. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. in his only second ever oval office address, president joe

biden speaking there from the heart, arguing that we cannot turn our backs on the wars in israel and ukraine, and our friends and allies there. that we must protect our democratic allies. this inflection points for america, as he described it, could determine our future for decades to come. his message ringing out loud and clear that we cannot let hate and evil win, arguing that we must stand against terrorism and division abroad and right here at home. president biden's address coming one day before the momentous breaking news we've been covering since we've been on the air. news that two hostages, americans, were released from gaza today after being held by hamas terrorists for nearly two weeks. judith raanan and natalie raanan for evanston, illinois, were kidnapped during the october 7th, terrorist attack, and are back in israel being re, night with family members. just in the last few minutes, president biden spoke with the raanan family from the oval

office. and last hour, secretary of state antony blinken, who has repeatedly called out hamas' reliance on humans as shields, spoke about the horrors felt by the families and loved ones of those taken. >> i was in israel last week. i met with the families of u.s. citizens that hamas has taken hostage. president biden, too, had the opportunity to hear directly from the families. it's impossible to adequately put into words the agony they're feeling of not knowing the fate of their loved ones. worrying relentlessly about them, for their safety, security, wellbeing. no family anywhere should have to experience this torture. >> and in a press conference in israel, spokesperson for the idf sought to remind the world not to be tricked by today's move. arguing that while hamas presents the hostage release as a humanitarian gesture, in reality what we're dealing with

is a murderous terrorist organization. while the release is welcome news, of course, to everybody, especially to the family members and loved ones of judith and natalie, there are still many, many more hostages who remain in gaza, including ten other americans w president biden acknowledged in a statement this afternoon. que, as i told those families of the americans held hostage when i spoke with them last week, we will not stop until we get their loved ones home. president, i have no higher priority than the safety of americans held hostage around the world. that's where we begin the hour with our special guest, national security council spokesperson john kirby, live with us outside the white house. i know it's been a whirlwind, but let's start with the release of the hostages. when did the president and you first learn that they would be released? >> reporter: we've been working on this actually for quite some time, and i think everything really kind of came together this morning in the early hours of the day. of course we were watching this

closely throughout the afternoon. we didn't really get the final good news. we kind -- kind of happened in stages where we knew that the -- they had been transferred to the red cross, and then, of course, it was about getting them out of gaza even though they were with the red cross, we couldn't talk about it until they got safely into israel. that transpired literally in just the last few hours. >> is there anything new on how they're doing physically or emotionally? >> as far as we know, they're being evaluated as we speak by israeli medical health professionals. i have not seen any definitive word about their health. i'd be to be careful in respecting their privacy. i know they are getting appropriate medical care now. joe? john, my colleague, raf sanchez, tremendous reporter covering the terrorist attack and everything that happened before and since in israel, described the release today as a, quote, carefully choreographed pr move by the terror organization of hamas,

and said in some ways it's a rebuke of president biden's address which was strong and forceful, and obviously condemned the terrorist acts of october 7th. do you agree with that assessment? >> no, i don't -- i don't. i think this is something that the president has been laser focused on since the first time we heard that there were american hostages being held by hamas. we said then and we're still saying because we think there's additional americans being held hostage, we're going to do everything we can to get them back with their families. this was the result of a lot of hard work. you know, through support of partners in the region. we make no apologies for that. and we also have been very, very clear -- and i think you saw when the president was in tel aviv, that we continue to stand with the people of israel as they defend themselves against these terrorists. we're going to make sure they continue to have the tools and weapons that they need to go after hamas. >> frank viglusi, former fbi official said terrorists don't release hostages as a goodwill gesture. how do you feel about that?

>> i think it's probably best for me to be careful about what i say in terms of how we got these two americans out because there are additional hostages we want to see released. and the less we say about the process that was utilized, probably the better. >> u.s. secretary of state antony blinken today thanked qatar. was careful to say what you're trying to be of not saying too much but thanked qatar for their role. "the new york times" reporter adam goldman, and some of his colleagues reported on their role and expertise in this area s. there anything you can add other than what the secretary of state said? >> no. i think it's probably better -- again, that we don't go too much into the kinds of communications, the negotiations that went into getting these americans back. as you saw in the president's statement, qatar played a role. we're grateful for that. that role that they played. i think it's common knowledge that qatar does have an open line of communication with hamas, and i think i'll leave it at that. >> let's turn to the president's

address last night. i know it's been a whirlwind of -- i guess more than 12 hours now, going on about 17. the president i think -- the president earned high praise from brit hume at fox news who had glowing words to say about it. i wonder if there's any surprise on the part of the communications staff to how well received the address was. >> we were very glad to see that, and we're glad to see the terrific response that the president's remarks have had not just here at home but around the world, as well. it was very important for the president to make clear to the american people not only why we need this supplemental funding, that was obviously a part of the speech, but really making the case for why it's in our national security interests to continue to support our partners in ukraine and israel because what happens there doesn't just stay there. it does affect the safety and security of the american people abroad and here at home. and i think he made a very, very compelling case for that. >> what the president seemed to be intent on was -- there were

three legs to this stool, if you will. talking about the terrorist attack in israel, bringing back into focus the plight of our ukrainian allies, and then really spending a lot of the time on hate here at home. the rise of anti-semitism and islamaphobia. can you talk about the importance of trying to put all three of those out there before the country? >> oh, well, i mean, kind of goes to what i was saying before about the effect of these wars on the safety and security of the american people. there's a lot that goes into that. part of it is the potential threat for domestic violence here at home as a spillover effect from the -- particularly what's going on between israel and hamas. i mean, we've already seen, you know, unfortunately, anti-semitic language, rhetoric, and potential violence here at home. it's been on the rise. we want to make sure that the jewish community as well as the muslim community here in the united states understands that hate is not appropriate, hateful

violence is obviously going to be dealt with severely and appropriately, and that the federal government is working with state and local governments to better identify any kind of threats and disrupt them before they happen. we're laser focused on this. and the president -- we're only a matter of a couple of days after hamas attacked on october 7th, started to put in motion that process and those procedures so that the federal government could be much more involved at a local level. >> how did the trip to israel impact the way -- the people he met with, the israeli citizens he met with, how did that impact his thinking on this? >> it was a dramatic moment for him to be able to spend some time, as he did, just kind of soaking in their presence and listening to their stories. first responders and families. families that have lost loved ones and are grieving, and families that are just suffering the anxiety and the uncertainty of not knowing where their loved ones are. some of them know that their family members are hostages, but they haven't been able to connect or contact them. i mean, just the anguish was

just palpable, and you could feel it in the room. the president wanted to take time to soak in that with them and make sure that they knew how dedicated he was to doing everything we can to get those loved ones back home, but also to continue to support israel. and i think as is the case with joe biden, those kind of moments definitely inform everything he says and does after those moments. and certainly they were top of his mind as he gave that speech last night. >> the secretary of state and the president have been abundantly clear that in these -- in this syncing up, standing shoulder to shoulder with israel, they have used those ties to fight for aid and relief for the innocent palestinians. i noted that secretary of state blinken and the president always seemed to make an effort to try to educate people that it is hamas who use innocent civilians as human shields. talk about that a little bit.

>> it's important for people to remember what hamas is. this is a terrorist organization. it's not a -- not a state, it's not a government. though they believe that they are, you know, in terms of governance of gaza, they are a terrorist organization. they don't abide by the laws of war like israel does or the united states does or two democracies. and they are victimizing the palestinian people in gaza in ways i don't think is still fully appreciated. they're the ones usings them as human shields. they're telling them not to leave their homes, ton try to get out of the country. in some cases preventing or trying to prevent their movement. putting tunnels underneath their homes, headquartering their command and control centers in hospitals and schools, deliberately placing the palestinian people in greater danger. and i think that's important to -- for people to remember, the palestinian people in gaza, they're not represented by hamas, hamas doesn't represent their hopes and aspirations for just and security and an independent state. i think it's important to continue to remind people of

that. >> you have been working with the press, and you have as much credibility as any government official, i think, among press corps of multiple institutions, the pentagon, the white house, and elsewhere. and i wonder if you can give me your sort of read on how the tragic bombing near the hospital or at the hospital in gaza, the initial claims by hamas that it was israel, the u.s. intelligence assessment, pretty rapidly afterward with three streams of intelligence suggesting that it was a rocket from palestinian islamic jihad, and the subsequent -- i won't call them riots, but protests in ramallah and around the world, and the heated tensions in this country. how do you analyze them, and how are you counseling the press as the days go forward and a ground war a possibility of it nears? >> i think just stepping back a little bit, when you're in a -- when there's a crisis, when there's fast moving events,

sometimes the best thing for everybody to do, whether it's in the media or us in government, is to slow down. there's this press -- we have a big explosion, you know there's casualties, and there's a rush to fill the void, to answer all the questions, to get everything out there. and i think everybody -- and that includes us -- everybody should be willing to take a knee, take a breath, process the information, and really be carefully about what we say and when we say it so that we can be sure about it. and we tried to do that on our side, be -- not rush to judgment. i think that's good advice for everybody, particularly when you're in an emergency or crisis situation. >> you followed events in this part of the world for the entirety of your career. have you seen a moment like this, and do you have any sense of how the presence of hostages, so many of them, if you've watched israel over the years and things they'll do to get one of their citizens -- there are

200 inside gaza. how do you think that's bearing down on the decisions militarily for israel? >> i think -- i can't speak for israel. i think obviously that complicates operational decisionmaking or at least it should complicate operational decisionmaking when you know you have innocent civilians, your citizens, your friends, your loved ones in harm's way and you don't know where they are, you don't know the conditions they're in, you don't know if they're being moved around. heck, you don't know if one group has them all, whether some other terrorist groups might have some, as well. so information is really key. and again, this is the idea of not rushing to judgment, not rushing to conclusions, not rushing to make decisions before their time. and to make sure you fully understand that picture. to your first part of your question, i have never -- this is a unique moment in history and a unique moment in time in the middle east. what happened on october 7th is historic. i think we all need to appreciate the impact that that has had not just on the israeli

people, but on the region writ large. we are witnessing a historic time. every decision we all make going forward and what we say about those decisions all have a terrific impact and a gravity that i think we all need to appreciate. i know president biden certainly does. >> we appreciate getting to talk to you, john kirby. thank you so much for starting us off this hour. i know how busy you are. >> yes, ma'am. when we come back, i guess we call it lighter news? jacketsless jim jordan has lost his third vote to become the speaker of the house of representatives. and just like in baseball, three strikes and he is out. jordan dropped his bid to become speaker. where things go from here is truly anybody's guess. we'll try to make sense of it next. later in the hour, had a sharp rebuke from jack smith's prosecutors. completely and totally rejecting the disgraced ex-president's claim of immunity saying that trying to overturn an election he lost was part of his presidential duties.

jack smith essentially laughed at that. we'll talk with one of our colleagues, ryan riley, about the online sleuths who have exposed so many of the capitol insurrectionists. he's written an incredible book called "sedition hunters: how january 6th provoked the justice system." he'll join us at the table. we'll continue after a break. ntk this is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified. they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a chromebook. now they're focused on learning knowing that their data is secure. ( ♪♪ ) when migraine strikes you're faced with a choice. ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating? or push through the pain and symptoms? with ubrelvy, there's another option. one dose works fast to eliminate migraine pain treat it anytime, anywhere. without worrying where you are or if it's too late. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. allergic reactions to ubrelvy can happen. most common side effects were nausea and sleepiness.

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let me correct the record. jim jordan is an effective legislator. [ applause ]

>> yes, he's trying out for late night. wasn't the first sign that jim jordan's candidacy for house speaker was deemed, but it was one of the last. he's nominated him and everybody laughed. today following a third round of voting in which he tied for the fewest votes for a majority party nominee for speaker in a century of voting, house republicans made the perhaps not-so-difficult decision to move on, to get rid of jim jordan, kick him to the curb, following an internal secret ballot vote. 17 full days after stripping kevin mccarthy of the speakership, we are right back where we were. no speaker, and a republican party in a state of perpetual chaos. joining us from the u.s. capitol, nbc news correspondents ally vitaly is here. also joining us former republican congressman david

joly. ali, it's a political graveyard. i mean, tell me -- tell me how -- after getting rid of mccarthy they cannibalized scalise and now jordan, and what happens next? >> reporter: i feel like we have jumped so many sharks here that we're on the side of like eight different oceans. it's really and truly wild. at every turn of this story, just when you think you can't see another historic moment made, they do it. and i think today's conference meeting, as soon as we saw that they were going back once again behind closed doors, and as soon as i heard that it was going to be a secret ballot, i think that was all that i needed to hear to know that the conference was going to try to say to jim jordan, all right, you're done, let's pick someone else. now they are once again back to the well, and we have almost as many names in the mix now as it took mccarthy balloting rounds back in january to get this job in the first place. so far there are ten republicans

who say that they want to be speaker. i cannot imagine why given the way that we've watched their colleagues be treated by their own over the course of the last two weeks. but nevertheless, here we are, more people want to continue vying for this job. they will take the weekend, they'll come back monday nights. they'll do a candidate forum, and tuesday once again we'll see if they can come up with someone. truly this is a moment where i know it's some ways darkly funny and there's some dark humor in this, but there is a sign of just -- this is a sign of just a truly broken house and a truly broken party. the fact that so many members will readily admit on the record not just that the majority is dysfunctional but that they actually don't know if any member of their party could get to 217 votes, that is truly problematic and a sign that it's not a question of slim margins because pelosi had these same numbers and certainly this wasn't her reality. it's a sign that this party is just so fractured. and i truly do not know where

they go from here. >> you know, one of the things we cover a lot around here is the rising acceptance on the right in american politics of political violence. and ali, i want you to flush out for me the role that threats of political violence for people that didn't vote for jim jordan played. i want to start that conversation by playing something ken buck had to say about death threats he received for not supporting jim jordan. >> so far i've had four death threats, i've been evicted from my office in colorado, i have notice of eviction because the landlord is mad at my voting record on the speaker issue. everybody in the conference is getting this. so it's natural -- family members have been approached and threatened. >> i'm sad when anyone is on the receiving end of death threats. but i think house republicans may be the last to experience them in the era of maga republicanism. tell me what that turn was like and how that impacted jordan's

defeat. >> reporter: it continuously felt like from the moment we heard from congressman don bacon who was referencing text messages that came through anonymously to his wife, saying that she should be pressuring him to vote for jim jordan, it then continued. every day it felt like we heard from new members saying they were stationing sheriffs outside of their daughter's school because of threats. or a congresswoman saying she was getting credible deaths threats that she was having law enforcement look into. jim jordan has consistently said that this is not okay. he even reiterated that today. but i do think that -- and you've covered this so many times on your show -- there's a real difference now on the maga right. when they say call your lawmakers and try to grassroots agitate, that's not new, telling voters call your members, let them know how you feel. that's, in fact, how this place functions. lawmakers change their minds

sometimes because of consistency constituent outreach. this ain't that. this is something of a much darker shade, and the fact that you then have people within this republican conference, scott perry said this this morning, it was a red herring to use violence as a reason not to vote jim jordan or to say it makes you uncomfortable not voting for jim jordan. with scott perry continuing to downplay that, that is something i heard from several sources today suggesting that it doesn't help anybody to downplay how dangerous and scary it is for members of congress of any party to be getting threats against their life because they are voting a certain way. but it can't be divorced from the reality that we've seen with capitol police telling us over the course of the last few years, they have seen a consistent uptick by staggering numbers in the trump era of members of congress receiving threats. it's all part of the political violence package that unfortunately we report on far too often, especially post

january 6th. >> it is the sickest thing of a sick and rotten party. and that they turned it on each other is a tragic, tragic plot twist. there's no one who deserves it. no party, no matter how bankrupt of ideasor idealogy does -- ideas or idealogy has members targeted with death threats or their children or spouses. i wonder, david jolly, if you think it's a party capable of pulling out of a nose-dive. >> i do. and i think it is importance to recognize that -- it is importance to recognize that violence is one of the quiet underpinnings of trumpism for specific reasons. rather than idealogy, donald trump emerged on the stage and told a certain part of the country that your way of life is under attack and you have to rise up and fight for it. if there is idealogy, the government has been weaponized against you, from jim jordan and the congress. and we heard about the use of

violence trying to overturn the election. this amounts of political violence, as we know from intel reports, is new during the trump era. now, is there a way out? i went through the gingrich ousting on the hill. i went through the boehner resignation. and i actually do think we're entering the final chapter for republicans. and here's why -- yesterday you and ali and i talked about it being untenable for jordan to hang on. there is nobody else now in a high-profile position that could get to 217. the analogy i think that is most apt, it's a bad one, i hate to bring it up, but it's the hastert analogy. when gingrich got ousted, he had a couple of high-profile lieutenants who couldn't get there. and then there was a high-profile chairperson who couldn't get there. and how denny hastert received the speakership was on a saturday morning when there was nobody left, and republicans reached for somebody that the country did not know. so i think last opportunity for republicans, understand there's two audiences here, is to find somebody that the country doesn't know and has not yet

fully vetted, and to find somebody that does not have enemies aboutin the second audience which is your own republican caucus. that might be a near member, it might be a member -- newer member, it might be a member that simply has not created that angry profile yet. the question becomes do they hold together their alliance. the reason i say this is the final chapter for republicans is i actually think they might find that unknown person now by next wednesday. if they don't, it's the final chapter because that's it. now we're in a coalition governing with democrats. >> so i meant to google all the people on this let. let me put it back up. the people considering running. and the breaking news out of the middle east happened, and didn't get to google any of them. who are these people, david jolly? >> right? that's why we're at this final chapters. i tell you i believe to the person -- i have not vetted all ten, i was at five before we came on the air. i think they all vetted -- they voted not to certify the

election. ali would know much better. so i think qualitatively we are not going to see some refreshing new republican come forward. what we will see is maybe somebody that does look more like an administrator for the next 14 months than the bomb thrower. i don't know at this point. >> ali, who are these people? and i -- i want to ask you -- it's my understanding that all -- >> reporter: i'm checking my list. >> all ken buck wanted was for jim jordan to say that joe biden had won the election, that it wasn't fraud. he couldn't get that. if these are all election deniers, can any of them pass the ken buck test? >> reporter: i don't think all of them are, though as i'm looking at the list, most of them are. i'm pretty sure that austin scott, name that came to prominence last week because he ran sort of on a lark against jordan in the informal vote behind closed doors last week. he garnered 81 votes, and as he told me, he was pretty surprised

about that because he didn't even have a whip operation. but i'm pretty sure austin scott voted to certify the election results. and i will get back to you on that. but i'm pretty sure that he might be the only one. >> are they all running -- >> nicole -- >> go ahead. >> i think ali's exactly right, as usual, austin is. i served with austin scott. i'm not sure austin has a constituency in this race. i think he performs so well because he was the alternative to jordan. i do think on the current list -- yeah. you do have to look at tom emmer, the highest ranking leadership elected currently. you could look at a kevin hearn who holds a -- hern who holds a caucus on the hill. you have to wonder will everybody come along because the margin's so small. >> ali, what do they think they isn't do they even all want a speaker? >> reporter: honestly, i'm not entirely sure that they all do. or maybe it's not that they don't want a speaker, but i do

know that there are people who are nine with the idea -- fine with the idea that this means it's slower and a foot dragging for sending aid to places like ukraine and israel. i do know that that school of thought exists within this republican conference right now. the chaos doesn't help politically, but for some of these members, it's okay because they weren't necessarily in the business of trying to legislate actively anyway. that's not the majority of this conference. the majority of the conference is extremely frustrated. but i do think that it's important that there's no singular guiding principle to this republican majority. if you think back to even the last majority that democrats had, the guiding principle at that point was like get out of the pandemic and build back better. now build back better completely fell aparks and i got to watch -- apart, and i got to watch that as members went in and out of conference rooms and watched negotiations fall apart. eventually they got it together in a different form, but at least there was a guiding

principle then and everyone was sort of marching in the same direction legislatively. that doesn't exist now for this republican conference. it's why it's so hard to get to 217 because it's not like they're looking at one person who embodies the message they're trying to send on being anti-crime or being pro law and order. it's not a singular focus, some want impeachment, some want to go at biden, some want trump at this point. it's hard to pin down one singular focus for this majority, and i think that's one explanation. i don't have time for all of them. but one explanation why it's so hard for them to find one person to lead them. >> david, quickly, i also feel like it's an extension of acting cabinet secretaries. there is a strand of the disintegration of institutions that seems to be reflected in the -- the fact that they've gone 17 days and they don't seem to be in let's fix it overdrive. they seem okay with not being okay. >> that's right. a majority of the republican

caucus believes government is the enemy, and they want to shut it down. they'd be okay with shutting it down. even a time of national crisis which makes it hard to build a majority. i think if we are entering the last chapter, we'll see. what biden administration them together is they -- biden administration them together is they want to beat joe biden. they want to beat joe biden. and at some point republicans will realize the only way is to reopen the house as republicans even if they've got to swallow hard medicine to do so. >> i don't know. that feels like -- maybe? we'll see. we'll keep watching. it's literally -- it's riveting. ali vitali and david jolly, thank you so much for spending time with us. when we come back, what jack smith and his team of federal prosecutors had to say about the disgraced ex-president's claim that overturning an election was just part of the job of being president. g president. this is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified. they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a chromebook.

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an unsparing straightforward and detailed response from federal prosecutors shutting down, closing the door, slamming the door, of what they call the disgraced ex-president's un-american and unconstitutional claim that he should be immune from criminal prosecution in the federal election interference case. special counsel jack smith's team writes that the implications of granting an ex-president absolute immunity would be, quote, startling anyway, but, quotes, particularly inappropriate where as here he's alleged to have engaged in criminal conduct

aimed at overturning the results of a presidential election. prosecutors also rejecting trump's claim that those alleged efforts were somehow part of his official duties as president of the united states after his bizarre attempt to compare his criminal charges to abraham lincoln's gettysburg address and george washington's farewell address. quote, these things are not alike, prosecutors write. and, quotes, the defendant is not above the law. he is subject to the federal criminal laws like more than 330 million other americans, including members of congress, federal judges, and everyday citizens. joining our coverage, former u.s. attorney and current msnbc legal analyst, barbara mcquaid, and nbc news justice correspondents, ryan riley. he is importantly for today's purposes author of the new book "sedition hunters: how january 6th broke the justice system" which he'll talk about in a minute. it's out tuesday.

you can buy it right now if you want to. barbara mcquaid, let me start with what is -- i won't put it on a spectrum, but i would say another completely disgusted might be too strong, but dismissive rebuke of some of the legal arguments donald trump is making from jack smith's team. >> yeah, this is a strong pleading, rejecting these arguments wholesale. and you know, i've been in these rooms when you're a prosecutor, and you're writing something and you want to indicate to the judge how strong it is. but you don't want to go over the top. you want to be respectful. you want to respect your role as an officer of the court. you understand the responsibility of speaking on behalf of the united states of america. and so i can only imagine the various drafts that went through this particular pleading as people said he's talking about george washington and abraham lincoln. that's ridiculous. can we say that? no, just tone it down. just discuss the arguments. and so the arguments here, you know, is essentially because the president didn't -- it's not illegal. and that, of course, is absurd.

the president is not immune from criminal prosecution. they cite a case called nix versus nits gerald which did talk -- nixon versus fitzgerald which did talk about immunity. in the civil immunity arena the test is whether the conduct at issue is within the outer perimeter of the president's duties. and so here in the ludicrous filing that the president's team -- the former president's team filed -- they talked about his duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. those are the federal laws of the united states. elections are administered under state law. so when donald trump was interfering with the administration of a presidential election, he was acting outside the scope of his official duties. what they say is he was acting as a candidate, not as president when he tried to interfere with that election. >> let me read some more from the filing by jack smith's team. quote, the implications of the defendant, that's donald trump,

unbounded immunity theory are startling. it would grant immunity from criminal prosecution to a president who accepts a bribe in exchange for a lucrative government contract for aamily member. a president who instructs his fbi director to plant incrinating evidence at a political enemy. a president who orders the national guard to murder his most prominent critics, or president who sells nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary. a president wholly immune from criminal prosecution for any conduct undertaken while in office, parcularly one in a seconderm who would not face voters in another presidential election, could commit crimes with impunity that benefit himself, endanger the republic, or both. it feels like -- and i know that filings are always just what they are, filings, but it feels like as a public we could also take a pretty specific warning from these words. >> yeah. and that seems like it has heat to it. that's someone who actually feels passionate about what they're saying.

this isn't an argument for the sake of it. they are warning what this could mean. and bringing out these specific examples of things that could happen and a president could get away with. that i'm so far from reality based on what we saw on january 6th, and you know, when you had the situation where a lot of this anger was really revved up by donald trump. and we saw the consequences of what happened that day. so it really -- i think it really does definitely make it seem like the prosecutors who are arguing this are passionate and behind this sort of argument. you know, you can't put rolling eye emojis in court filings, but when they are making these arguments against what donald trump is arguing here it does seem like some of this is just sort of like really, that's what you're arguing? it's a little bit of tone there. >> it's a legal architecture pulling the thread on what trump's actually saying, right? like the eye roll is like if you accept -- this is -- judge chutkin will be the arbiter of this, but what the prosecutors are saying is that if you accept trump's argument that he has

absolute immunities you are saying the president has impunity. how do you think it will roll, barb? >> i think people have thought all along this is a frivolous filing. a likely unsuccessful filing. i would imagine that she will read these briefs, give it the hearings it is due, and make a decision. i fully expect her to reject this argument. it may even be that the reason that the trump lawyers are doing this is because they know full well they will lose, but it perhaps buys a little more time because i do think this is the kind of issue for which an interlocktory appeal is possible. they will get a sthot to take this to the circuit court. they may decide in short order. but any delay is in trump's best interests for him. >> so you're saying he'll lose, but the time it takes to litigate all this may aid him? >> yes, exactly. you know, he's -- there is a trial date that's set in this case. but if there are interlock tori

appleate issues that could be it, to file any motion you can think of in hopes of delaying the trial date. >> the nonlegal distinction, spaghetti on the wall. thank you so much for spending time with us. when we come back, we'll talk about ryan's book, "sedition hunters: how january 6th broke the justice system." e" and you can do the exploring. you can do the splashing... ...the sightseeing... ...and the playing. calquence is an oral targeted therapy for cll. more patients begin with calquence than any treatment of its kind, and calquence is proven to work better than chemoimmunotherapy in patients with previously untreated cll. calquence may cause serious side effects, which may lead to death. these include serious infections with fever, chills, or flu-like symptoms; and bleeding problems that may increase with blood thinners. decreased blood counts are common and can be severe. new cancers have happened, including skin cancers. heart rhythm problems with fast or irregular heartbeat, dizziness, feeling faint, chest discomfort,

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tells the inside story of the fbi's sprawling investigation into the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol and the community of online sleuths who overwhelmed law enforcement -- overwhelmed law enforcement and they relied on them in many ways, and it drove their investigation in the earliest phases. ryan writes this about one of them who he calls chris, quote, chris knew the sleuths were having a big impact. it wasn't until they visited the fbi sometime in 2021 that they realized the extent of it. when they were able to meet with members of law enforcement who had served on january 6th and appreciated the work of the online sleuths in identifying those who had assaulted them. chris had done a lot of things in his life. they'd raised tens of thousands of dollars for charity, volunteered thousands of hours and even saved a guy's life once. when a capitol police officer handed them a challenge coin, they felt as if this was one of the most important things they'd ever done. we're back with ryan riley. -- ryan reilly.

i remember some of your earliest hits after january 6th before there was a congressional committee investigating which created a vehicle for all the press to cover it, you were investigating the work of the sleuths. how did you first know about the work they were doing? >> it all sort of started with a twitter joke. there was a woman who actually was using a bullhorn. she was sentenced this week. her name is rachel powell. they nicknamed her bullhorn lady. and it was because she had on a pink hat and -- there's a broken window, and she was on the bullhorn yelling at -- instructions for what people inside the capitol should be doing and saying, okay, if we're going to take this building, we should coordinate together. and the tone she struck as a parent sort of reminded me of that tone when you're fwrus traitsed with your your kids or trying to get it together. so it sort of was like she was chaperoning an eighth grade field trip as these looters went through a senate office building where some of the senators had hide-away offices. a iraqable scene. i made a joke about how this is going to end in an arrest and a

pta resignation. shortly after that someone said, we've identified her, we're trying to get this info to the fbi. this was a really kind of mess in those early days when there was so much information going around. and they were basically trying to make sure that the sleuths, the other people working on this, weren't distracted by this one case and everyone was rolling together in the same direction. eventually that case came out. ronin farrell scooped me on that. i get the next one, sort of ended up working with the man, forrest rogers. he's an american living in germany at the time, ended up working with him. we identified the individual who drove a stun gun into mike fenton's neck on january 6th. >> how important have the online sleuths been? >> really essential. they've helped with hundreds of these cases. they're directly responsible for hundreds of these cases. there are cases that are soup to nuts all the sleuths.

they give them everything the fbi needs. i think it's really interesting because it really has shattered a little bit of the hollywood reputation of the fbi and what they're able to do. because they are really behind on a lot of this tech stuff. they don't have the ways to organize videos that you would think they would want to. when you have this idea of when you watch these proergs on television, okay, we're going to enhance that photo, zoom in, organize this really well. that's not what they have. i think one of the most effective tools is what you have on your iphone, the sleuths have. they've organized all of these videos and open source material so that they can quickly find someone. if you swipe up on a photo on your phone, you click on faces and it will show you all the faces. for my daughter, it gets all the way from when she was a kid all the way to the present, the facial recognition is really good. i think that's something the sleuths have been able to organize and say, here's what this person was doing the entire time through. it eliminates a lot of that sort of work that you'd have to do to

manually go through and place someone. >> will the fbi acknowledge their contributions? are they now considered partners? >> they do to a certain extend, yeah. i think we have had the attorney general even say, citizen sleuths, i believe he referred to them, mentioned in several court documents. in fact, some of them now are confidential human resources for the fbi. and they really are the essential part of this. chris, i remember them saying, shortly after their fbi meeting and describing the impact, they were shocked by how much of an impact they had. they actually in a very trumpian way said, "huge, huge." >> huge, that's amazing. such a good book. there's so many important stories that have come out of this. and you've been at the forefront of this one. congratulations on the book. it's really, really important. thanks for being here to talk about it. >> thanks so much. >> the book, "sedition hunters: how january 6th broke the

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today the judge overseeing the $250 million civil fraud trial of the twice-impeached, four lifetimes-indicted ex-president donald trump fined donald trump $5,000 and threatened prison time after the ex-president violated a partial gag order. judge arthur engoran said in court he had ordered trump to take down a post with a photo he put out on truth social disparaging one of his clerks, and trump had said he'd come high. engoron said, "despite this order, last night i learn the offending post was never removed from the website. this is a blatant violation of the gag order. i made it clear that failure to comply will result in serious sanctions." according to the judge, even though the post was removed from truth social, it remained on

trump's campaign website for 17 days and nights until last night. a lawyer for trump said that the photo remaining up was unintentional. this perhaps the first time we have seen the ex-president approach something nearing a real-world consequence for his frequent and dangerous and brazen attacks on public officials and the rule of law. medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from

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