without any strategy, without any solutions. the person who was in charge of this country is a person that we do not trust. we do not believe him. he's not leading a government. the government is nowhere to be found. and right now, it's the civil power in israel that are taking care of the people that were evacuated. it is not the government. my palestinian friends who have israeli citizenship, they are being silenced and arrested for no good reasons. the government is being run by right-wing fascists, and we absolutely do not trust the government. >> i don't mean to interrupt you. i would love to keep talking but i have 10 seconds left in the show. i'm going to have to say good-bye. we'll have you back on. thank you so much for coming. i appreciate that opinion. and the idea that there's a different way. thank you. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that's it for me. "deadline white house" starts right now.

hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. there's no shortage of news today in the legal troublesing the disgraced ex-president and current gop front runner, including a third trump lawyer and fourth trump associate earlier today pleading guilty in the fulton county criminal election interference case. we begin with a moment years in the making at aen manhattan courthouse. the disgraced ex-president coming face to face with michael cohen, the former fixer who said he would take a bullet for donald trump now, star witness in that civil fraud trial that threatens to bring down the trump business empire. here is what michael cohen said on arrival at court today. >> let me just turn around and say that this is not about donald trump vs. michael cohen.

this is about accountability, plain and simple. we leave it up to the judge in order to make all the duststorm nations. i thank you all for coming. >> a few hours later in what he called a, quote, heck of a reunion, he took the stand in the $250 million civil suit brought by the new york attorney general. early in his testimony, had he pointed the finger directly at the man he calls donald. he was asked about the crimes that he pleaded guilty to and when it came to lying to congress about trump's effort to build a trump tower moscow, trump said i did that at the direction and benefit of mr. trump, end quote. cohen went on to confirm essential allegation of pross. nbc news reporting this. cohen said trump will come up with his own net worth estitions. it was up to him and former trump cf to make the numbe work. i was asked to increase the total assets upon a number

that he arbitrarily elected. 2011 financial statement.mp's my responsibility along with allen weisselberg predom nebtly was to reverse engineer the asset classes and increase those assets in order to achieve a number that tru asked us for, he said. asked what that number would be, cohen said, quote, whatever number he told us. all day long, trump lashed out at cohen on social media and in front of the cameras, we'll spare you what he said, but his reaction in court today is a reflection of the fact that cohen's testimony gets to the heart of this case. something that the attorney general acknowledged when announcing her lawsuit last year. >> mr. trump and his allies may say these penalties are too harsh or that this is part of a wish hunt. i will remind everyone that this investigation only started after michael cohen, the former

lawyer, testified before congress and shed light on this misconduct. >> donald trump's former fixer on the stand today as the star website for the prosecution in the ex-president's civil fraud trial is where we begin today. some of our most favorite reporters are here. senior editor and msnbc political analyst tim o'brien is here, former attorney and legal analyst glen kisher in is here and susan craig join us. i want to start with you. i said to my team earlier there's something shakespearen about this clash of personalities. we'll dig into the law of it in a minute. i'm always reminded by smart legal folks that the central legal question has been decided, that he's liable for fraud, that his business was a fraud and has been determined by the judge already. but just take us inside the -- i

think of all these movie references because of the personalities involved. . take me inside that dynamic today. >> you stole the word i would say is it was shakespearen. the story was the fact that these two men were in a courtroom together. they haven't seen each other in several years. when they last saw each other, michael cohen was donald trump's lawyer and donald trump was president. and you just think what michael cohen and donald trump have been through. you had to see when michael cohen walked in the courtroom, you looked at a man who has done time for actions that he did on behalf of the president. he has written a. he lost his law license. he has lost so much. today he was here looking at the man who, much of what has hpd to him, the man responsible for.

the first thing he did on the stand was give his address on park avenue. i couldn't help but think he gave the street address that happens to be a building that has trump's name on it. donald trump is just everywhere in this man's life. today was his opportunity to set the record straight. >> i have been thinking about these two men all day and read ing the updates. we are going to get to the legal developments, but dopd took from michael cohen in his view everything and actually he took his freedom. he did time in solitary. michael cohen is still trying to put his life back together. he finds himself aligned with people he was willing to many line when he was working for donald trump. his life has changed more than just about anyone else. and michael cohen maybe central in taking away from donald trump the thing that made him president. the facade of a successful businessman.

>> reporter: right. the first strings that were pulled on that were by michael cohen when he testified before congress about some of the financial issues that were now in court about. it's just incredible will toe seize to guys. when michael cohen walked in, he didn't look at donald trump and donald trump was looking straight ahead. everybody was just waiting to see if they exchanged a glance or had any sort of eye contact, and they didn't. michael cohen, we're on direct. he's been a cool customer. he's answering the questions very straight. he refers to the former president as donald j. trump on most references or mr. trump. he's really coloring in the lines. i say that because i think a lot of people watching know he has a bit of a temper and he can blast off on social media. we're seeing none of that. donald trump has been, for the most part, he's been watching the proceedings. he's been fitting. he's been on his phone a fair bit.

even just before we came back from lunch, he was taking calls in court trying to hide the fact he was on a screen that we could see. it's been odd. there haven't been any outbursts or lashing out by either side. >> on his phone is how parents of tweens usually describe an unsupervised moment, but that's what the current gop front runner was seen doing. i want to press on something that i know is sensitive for michael cohen, but it's important about the prosecution's of donald trump in new york. the civil and criminal. michael cohen had the goods and james office, took the time to corroborate his account, something that mueller didn't seem to do with michael cohen.

in the case of sdny determines that donald trump is coconspirator, why do you think that is? >> i don't know why that is. the braiseness of some of what michael cohen has been saying during his direct examination things like donald trump just threw out a number, i'm going to say i'm worth $a 5 billion and instructing michael cohen and the chief financial officer allen weisselberg to reverse engineer the numbers. cook the books and a have it add up. that's so braise and so nefarious. if you're doing it only because you're chasing tabloid headlines, that's one thing. but michael cohen made it pretty clear in both his congressional testimony and i'm sure in his trial testimony that, no, this was to secure bank loans.

it was to secure insurance for his properties. this is years long fraud. in one sense, this is an opportunity for donald trump to confront his accuser through his lawyers. you get to confront and cross-examination, the witness who is are testifying against you, but in another sense, this really feels like a moment where michael cohen gets to confront his tormenter. michael cohen paid off play mates and porn stars for donald trump at his direction and for his benefit, and who goes to prison. michael cohen. i have always maintained that's a deep injustice. not that michael cohenen went to prison for his crimes, but that donald trump has not suffered one moment of accountability.

it's testimony for alvin bragg in the criminal prosecution being brought for the massive fraudulent business records case that alvin bragg has brought. but i would think this must be a somewhat satisfying moment for michael cohen. i'm glad to hear susan saying he's keeping his cool. i tell every witness to keep yfr cool because if you lose your cool, you're stepping on the opponent's playing field. so we'll see what happens on cross-examination. >> is mike books michael cohen didn't benefit from the campaign finance violation. and michael cohen didn't benefit from the alleged sexual act with a porn star. and he's the only one who went to prison. he's talking about testimony with allen weisselberg, who also went to prison. all the people that did time for donald trump never ceases to stun me.

>> can't we see the parallels between that and the january 6th consequences that are being paid by the boots of the insur jexists who were instructed to go to the capitol to release the cracken, to stop the steal, to fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore. and the boots, the lower-class criminals are serving time and donald trump, again, has yet to suffer one second of accountability. i think all of this highlights the unequal application of the law that's enjoyed by the ruling class criminals. >> it's amazing. right back to where we started. there are bigger plots at play today from the sublime shakespearen, but you know the players. you have been a litigant in this

very story of the fraudulent nature of what trump asserts to be his wealth. you have information today straight from one of the horse's mouth of how it was reverse engineered. but you already knew that, right? >> yeah, this is just an old story that finally wound up in a courtroom. journalists don't have subpoena power and prosecutors for a long time didn't determine that anything trump was doing violated the law. i think that all started to land on the doorstep when he president. he became a more threatening public presence because of the power he can wield as president. people focused on his back story and his actions than maybe they had in the past in terms of the consequences of possible crimes. i would fall in with you on the my cousin vinnie interpretation rather than shakespeare. in shakespeare, you have very capable people full of mal lis and ill intent.

and you have incapable people full of malice and ill intent. donald trump is the crypt keeper. he keeps ushering out people who are these almost emblematic cartoon characters. donald trump is archie bunker in a suit. michael cohen is a fixer in a suit. i was in that courtroom last week. you run through the state supreme courtroom with a state judge, who is colorful. and he has his lawyers. it's about the cameras rather than the consequences of the legal process. i think what's going to end up here has been predictable from the beginning. i think very early on said trump has clearly had a pattern of

fraud so it's really just a matter of what the penalty is going to be. and michael cohen's testimony today is adds on to the other testimony and evidence that's come into the public record that donald trump inflated his assets. i think if his lawyers had been combat ready and had been a little more astute about how to defend their client, they would have requested a jury trial. they may not have been granted one, but i think the judge would have wanted to defer to team trump i think they could have said he did it to trick the media and he's a deeply juvenile and insecure man. but maybe at the end of the day, the banks weren't harmed and we can convince a jury of that. and trump and his lawyers have done nothing but turn the courtroom into a playground. i think that when this wraps up, he's going to see a lot of his ability to do business in new york almost completely.

>> so let me ask you to jump in on that point and take us inside the legal developments. >> take us inside what's happening in court. the legal importance today. we have been focused on the personalities. >>. >> reporter: yeah, i think tim is right. this is all creative. you don't have the a-ha moment any day in this trial what you have is building blocks leading towards something. and what we saw today, which was interesting was michael cohen saying that he was asked to given a nurl and he was asked to get it higher and he reverse engineered it he talked about how he did that. he said he would go out and if it was a tower with condominiums, he would find comparables that weren't comparable.

that don't exist and they would move the price up. we heard that sort of thing and that's really every day that i have been here, you continue to hear stories like that. it's not just, oh, we had a meeting and it came at $4.5 million and he said to move it to $6 billion. you're seeing the how every day in court. it's always a little different, but it builds on it. after today, we're seeing the direct tomorrow if we start the cross, which i expect we will, it could be explosive. but i have to say michael cohen is very much contained. whether or not he can keep it together tomorrow when he's being crossed by not the main lawyer for trump that's been in the courtroom, but very spirited and performtive. we're going to be seeing that over and over. the fireworks if they are going to happen are going to happen

tomorrow. but on the substance. it's been every day we get a little bit of information that goes towards what will ultimately be the judge's decision on just how big the financial penalty should be in this case. >> to what we're saying, there's never been any acts introduced at any point that suggests that he didn't commit fraud on a massive scale. so the question and the judgment that he was a fraud, he is a fraud, has already been reached. and as everyone has already mentioned, they are determining damages. what is the point for trump? why is he sitting in there? why is his lawyer planning to be so performtive? that's all they have left? >> i think that's all they have left. it plays into the political realm. donald trump spent his first term as president, maybe his last term as president

undermining public faith and public institution in the rule of law. in the legal process and diplomacy in the media, in universities, anywhere where expertise in an attempt to bring civic procedures to our life in this country resided, donald trump tried to undermine it. he's in a courtroom trying to convince anyone that the whole thing is farce. he's a victim. that the law of the united states shouldn't apply to him. everyone is out to get him. and this is a useful line for him to also campaign on, which he already has. and so i think for him and his lawyers, it's purely performtive. i don't think they think they are going to change the outcome. another thing that i think is important to watch and it ties to the two federal cases and to the georgia case, there's a long standing myth that donald trump has nine legal lives. the reality is he's never had a

series of intense prosecutions land on his door step like he has in recent years. specifically, the two federal prosecutions, but the georgia prosecution is robust. the new york prosecution is less so, but it's stil damaging. the evidence being introduced shows that donald trump was not standing on the sidelines in any of this. whether it was january 6th or the classified document case or voter fraud in georgia, he was an architect. he wasn't taking advice from people and saying i don't know if that's legal or illegal, but you told me it's fine. let's do it. he was telling people what he wanted done. they were carrying out his orders. that's clear from michael cohen's testimony. it's clear from other testimony. it's entered the public record in this case. i think it's come up already in georgia. i think that's why you see sidney powell flip. everyone around him knows it's in their interest to testify that they were taking orders and doing things at the direction of

donald trump. i think at the end of the day, that's going to be a damning fact pattern that's going to be hard to battle back against. >> it's so important. i want to ask you to stick around. and we also have a jury test in a jury found him liable for sexual assault. and so trump when presented to a jury also has yielded bad results for trump. but i want to both of you through to the other side of the break and ask about how these cases may foreshadow trump as a defendant. also ahead for us, republicans have put forward today their third choice for speaker nominee since removing kevin mccarthy. likely, the third one who will come up short in an eventual floor vote. we'll look at what's become a purity test for those seeking to lead the house republican conference as donald trump weighs in again.

plus new details from one of the two hostages released yesterday. what she's saying about her time in captivity and an update on what we know about negotiations to release more of what is believed to be around 200 hostages. later in the broadcast, another former trump attorney in a courtroom today. jenna ellis' tearful guilty plea in the georgia election case. she distanced herself today far, far, far away from the man she once represented as a member of what she called elite strike force team. we'll bring you those stories and more when we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e after a quick break. don't agonywhere. - [female narrator] five billion people lack access to safe surgery. thousands of children are suffering and dying from treatable causes. for 40 years, mercy ships has deployed floating hospitals to provide the free surgeries these children need. join us. together, we can give children the hope and healing they never thought possible.

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i discussed it with them and provided documentation, include ing the personal financial statements. that was, obviously, important for them because what it did is it gave them the ability to take the documents that i provided, not just to them, but all the various different congressional committees, the house oversight committee that it was posted live on. and what they did is they tracked it back. for example, the crainess about his apartment. 33,000 square feet, highest price ever attained. in fact, the whoel building is not worth that all the of money it's never seen that type of money. they did it with seven springs and martin bashir and virtually every single property, including his golf courses. that's the big problem. >> we're back with kim, glen and sue. so that's a little bit of what at least on direct has happened

in court today. we understand that lenah, they are on cross with michael cohen. to everyone's points, we'll see how that goes. but michael cohen has waited for this moment for a very, very long time. he has been, i think credibility tested by everybody who has sought his documentation and his testimony. and i wonder what you think the sort of strategic impact will be of trump listening to this all day, the inside story, the inside secret, it's sort of the one person that he can't say i hardly know him. >> the the thing to remember about this group of donald trump is that michael cohen was not a financial insider in the trump organization. allen weisselberg was. green blat, his inside counsel, it's been surprising to me he

hasn't been brought in for more testimony because deals didn't get done inside the trump organization without green blat signing off on them. jeff played a role in the nuts and bolts of the deal making. people like matthew calamari and michael cohen were not brought in because of financial expertise. they were brought in to fix problems and prevent a muscular and thuggish world view and exercise the powers to people outside of the trump organization trying to mess with donald trump. michael is certainly a witness to these things. he was part of the conversations. one of the miscalculations that's come back to haunt donald trump is all these people who float n around in the orbit of his universe with him in the center, these are corruptible. they are either corrupt

themselves or enamored it's easy to corrupt them. he views loyalty as a one-way street. he will throw anyone under the bus, including even some of the children. and generally, for most of his 76 years, he's gotten away with that. now he's in the middle of the court processes where these people that either shredded and corrupted and used over a period of years now are offering testimony. and they know that because loyalty is a one-way street in trump world that it is in their interest not to wait around with any hope that he's going to look out for them. and they are looking out for themselves now. and i think he is probably angry about that. i certainly think all of his actions, texting and phoning from the courtroom, jumping on to truth social, and engaging in

hysterics and mud slinging, lashing out at anyone who comes within a foot of him is evidence of how cornered he feels, how powerless i think he feels and he's defaulting to the one thing he thinks he can control. the court of public opinion. not the court of law. you're going to see this escalate as the legal pressure on him intensifies. >> the point made in the last block, and that's how these are windows into a possible criminal prosecution of donald trump. i'm thinking of of the congressional testimony testifying that what mark meadows said was he doesn't want to do anything he agrees with them. i'm thinking of attesting to trump's hatred of wounded veterans, men and women who served our country and mark milley attesting to how he didn't want someone at a

ceremony who was a wounded veteran of the behalf of the country. i'm thinking of the firsthand witnesses that we don't know about yet. and i'm wondering what you make of how prosecutors are watching the willingness of now four campaign associates, to flip on trump in the rico prosecution, which the right has poo pooed they take very seriously. and we don't know what will be shake loose by jack smith, who i would imagine is watching this closely. >> in one sense, this is something of a preview of what is to come, the multiple criminal trials, but really i think this peals in comparison when a whole string of republicans will walk into the courtroom, raise their right hand, take that stand and just begin to unload some

dramatically and sharply incriminating evidence against donald trump. michael cohen, in a sense, is damaged goods. and but i think it will be a very different proceeding when it is some of the people that you just mentioned plus donald trump's other lawyers, who are a little bit different from michael cohen, the jenna ellis's who have now pleaded guilty, have agreed to cooperate against donald trump. donald trump is forever defending himself in the court of public opinion, as tim says, by posting or giving interviews, but what i'm not sure he fully appreciates is none of that will be admissible at a criminal trial because the rules of evidence will prohibit that. the only way donald trump will get to tell his side of the story and make these outrageous claims about relying on advice

of counsel and maybe people who were or were not his lawyers, depending on what day you ask donald trump about declassifying things or the presidential records act giving him a defense, which it really doesn't give him, none of that will see the inside of a criminal courtroom, unless donald trump chooses to testify. then he can spew and spout any nonsense he chooses to, but i think it will all be defeated by the prosecutors. so it's going to be a very different circumstance for him when he's forced to sit there every day a defendant in a courtroom in georgia or in new york. and i have long maintained that based on the evidence that has been amassed against him, it is going to be a very lopsided affair and i don't think any of

the juries at any of the respective jurisdictions are going to find it all that difficult to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that donald trump is guilty of the crimes for which he's been indicted. >> tim o'brien, glen, sue, thank you all so much for starting us off. to be continued. we have some breaking news. tom emmer, if you haven't heard of him, he was the next guy in line. he had just secured the republican nomination to be their house speaker. well, another one bites the dust. he dropped out. we'll tell you about that development, not putting an end to one of the more embarrassing and dangerous periods in american congressional history. we'll bring you the lathest, next. history we'll bring you the lathest, next ♪ did you know 80% of women are struggling with hair damage? dryness and frizz that keeps coming back,

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ed. from the moment republicans wrestled the house speakership away from kevin mccarthy precisely three weeks ago today, the act of replacing him has been the worst, most unseriousness but watchable reality tv show ever. score settling, alliance making and breaking, and today a series of secret votes kicking people off the island. the original field of nine republicans who wanted the jobs was whittled down from seven and six and down to two. then one. now he's out. tom emmer, the house whip, got his rose today, but he dropped

out. so on to plan whatever we're on. let's bring into the conversation ali vitali on capitol hill for us and former congressman from florida and msnbc political analyst david jolly. who is -- what is happening, ali vitali? >> reporter: it's a new record at least. the job of speaker designate, he got it around 1:00. my understanding is he walked into the room behind me at 4:00, dropped out and left with a smile, but nary a word to reporters. now they are back to the drawing board. it's a drawing board we have already looked at today, specifically kevin hearne and mike johnson will once again vie for this position, which again, i have no idea why anyone thes at this point. but for hearne, he's someone who is coming into this with a lot of optimism having just spoken to him on his way into this

meeting. and mike johnson is still one of the last people within the existing leadership structure who could potentially rise into the speebership. i have no clue if they will be able to get the 217 that they need, but in order to answer that question, they have to get the majority in the room. so we'll see which of them comes out with the very coveted title of speaker-elect, and we'll go from there. but i think it's important to note, you know because we have talked about it on this show, i'm not someone who thinks that former president trump is a mover of votes here on capitol hill. but it is my understanding, according to one source familiar with what emmer was doing in these intervening hours while trying to see if he could get the vets together, as soon as trump tweeted saying he was a rhino and didn't support him for this job, that's when emmer realized the writing was on the wall. because although trump did you want move votes, he can kind of stop votes from moving. and i think that could be one of the things that spelled doom for

emmer, even sooner. but it is the shortest lived speaker-elect bid that we have seen here. i'll go to the house historian, one of our producers, to see what the shortest one actually is, but this has to be in the running. >> david jolly, ali eliminated -- we're matching today, a as to the structural problems. so the structural problems is that trump did you want have enough juice to get anybody home. trump plus hannity equals nothing, failure. but the guys that voted to certify the election, even if they signed on to the lawsuit, the texas lawsuit, don't have the juice to win over the crazies. i don't want to call anyone a moderate. there are no moderates. emmer was a gun-toting guy who was fetish siing second

amendment rights. he signed on to that lawsuit. we're not talking about ideological differences. we're talking about standing in maga world. i think we're the at the point now where it's irreconcilable. what do they do now? >> i think the divide within the caucus and the distrust and the hatred is real. i think to ali's point, it's not that donald trump can move a lot of votes, but he gives resolve to those who want to stand in opposition to someone like emmer. that's what he did. he strengthened the resolve to emmer's opponents. now they go back behind closed doors and stand in a circumstanceal and they draw their weapons and shoot at each other for a few hours and see who is left standing. that has been kind of the metaphor of these last three weeks. but i do think we are getting over the landing zone that if republicans are going to bring this to ab end, it's in this moment. allie and i have walked this walk together over the past

couple weeks. i have shared with you, i think it takes somebody the country doesn't know, which is now you're left with hearne and johnson. and i will tell you but for the bad blood coming out of puling the rug out from under emmer, if johnson prevailed today, i think he could get 217. because he's kind of just goldilocks temperature enough for everybody in that room. i think hearne is interchangeable with mike johnson in this moment. what does it mean for the country? this is important for the other news of the day, the ellis plea in georgia and some of the trump litigation, mike johnson, who is trying to now replace emmer, was one of the leaders of the independent state legislature theory and one of the people who tried to architect stealing the election from joe biden. that's a real moment. we talked about a threat of a jim jordan speakership. with mike johnson, we need to pull back the curtain a little bit and see just what mike

johnson would he done had he had that power. that's a real question for the country. >> we know more about what the republican conference thinks about. that was an idea that was so crazy, so extreme, it failed legally. but not politically. so to tell us more about these two individuals, johnson and hearne. >> reporter: it failed legally, but not politically. i think that congressman jolly, who has been my partner in this across all of our programming on msnbc, is right to point that out. but i think it's also important for us to note that when emmer was still the speaker-elect, there were members in the room who said theyen wouldn't vote for emmer because he voted to certify the election. that's a litmus test now that emmer failed simply because he said, hey, i'm not going to invalidate my work as the head of the house republican campaign arm. i'm not going to say the

elections that i helped republicans win in house races across the country are invalid because trump lost his presidential bid. that was likely the thinking behind emmer's stance on certifying the election results, which is nothing to say of signing on in the texas case. it's good for us to point out that mike johnson has roots in the false elector scheme and he's parcel to that. he's someone who voted to dert certify the results because he knew in the field of nine candidates that only two men voted to certify them and he was one. i think had has become. >> we lost ali. you froze. there's a metaphor in there somewhere. david jolly, i'm going to have you're pick up where she left off. this is happening at this breakneck pace, where your information exceeds what has gotten out there, but expand on her reporting. >> i think what allie is

affirming within the republican caucus, election denying and the efforts to overturn an election is a requirement for some of the members to give you their for speaker. the question is does it disqualifying where my of the republican members. i don't think it is. there are a group of institutionalist members, even like a tom cole, who we often talk about, who voted to overturn the election in the house. some of the more steady old-timers in the house, they are okay going along with trumpism if they can get a house that's operating again, which is why i think a johnson or a hearne, i understand i use those interchangeably because each led the study committee which is a sket conservative caucus and probably 130 or more members. it controls a majority, steve scalise once led it,en kevin hearne has led it. they are now the two remaining in the contest. i do think they could get to

217. the problem is it's one of just bad blood. so tom emmer beats johnson by 20 votes three hours ago. the people who didn't vote for emmer say, i don't care what that vote looked like. i want the guy who lost to become speaker. do your old institutionists finally say, enough is enough. we've got to govern. let's get behind a johnson and wool take the l on our side of the conference. i don't know. i do think this is it. this is the landing zone for house republicans. if it's not here, you're probably in a world of talking about patrick mcnew hampshire ri possibly some type of vote deal with democrats. >> which is dramatic and extraordinary in its own right. ali, we lost you. you froze. i want to turn to one more point here. so liz chi nae is expelled. and it seems like that's the pivot. like that's the lens we should look at this through.

liz cheney can't exist in leadership or in the body because she draws a line at january 6th. i think everyone that voted to impeach trump is gone by now. and now we're looking at two people who are forget the policy inclinations, they are all to the right of it. they are antidemocratic in nature. they did not vote to secure the election, but a the whose name was on the ballots that sent them back to congress, they know it's bs. and that's where we are. whoever it is, if it's a republican, will have that antidemocratic position. >> i think that's right, but it's why it's so important when we talk about the ways that this house republican conference has been remade in trump's image, that doesn't mean he moves votes or controls them, but it means that to the extent there's an ideology behind trumpism, a

democracy is a part of that, that is one of the thoses of this republican conference. so i almost worried when democrats said and hallie jackson was democrats said and hallie jackson wa and our goal was to make sure jim jordan didn't become speaker because of the roles he played behind the scenes regarding january 6th allegedly. that made sense for them to say, but it also almost make it is sound like if and when they come up and say mike johnson also decertiied the election results and was the architect of the false legal theories behind false slates of electors, it makes them look like they are saying no to every republican, opposed to the reality which is democrats are saying we're just saying no to anyone who is going against democratic values. i think that's a really important point. as i was killing time in the hallway waiting today, the other thing i was asking republicans about is in this slate of a dozen men who want to be the most powerful person in the

house, where are all the women? i just popped a story on nbc.com that answer it is i by saying, according to experts that i spoke to within the republican apparatus, they are too smart to want this job. whether it's politically because they know these issues of a government shutdown or foreign aid are too thorny and they are political losers whoever has to shepard the conference through t but they all have long careers and my not need to get bogged down in this mess right now. >> that's so interesting. that warrants the totally separate long conversation. you're our eyes and ears that have taken on this story. david jolly, thank you so much. we're going to shift gears here. a live report from israel on the continued efforts to free more of the 200 hostages still being held in gaza. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. n gaza don't go anywhere. we'll be right back.

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can we just say vase like normal people? fine. i always wondered what it would be like to have a tail. maybe you did one time. maybe a thousand years from now i'll be tailless using that chewy app to get you great prices on treats. i'm pretty sure it takes more than a thousand years... vase. pets aren't just pets. they're more. vase! shop and get a $30 egift card through november 5th. at chewy. my mom is very much hoping that all the people that were with her will come back. the story is not over until everybody comes back. >> speaking on behalf of a hostage released yesterday by hamas. that was her daughter telling reporters at a press conference after hererer lease, she had, quote, gone through hell.

the 85-year-old was held by the terrorist group and described being beaten when taken captive during the october 7th terror attack that killed more than 1400 people. including 33 americans but her release alongside another hostage has brought a small glimmer of hope to the families of the more than 200 people still being held by hamas. joining us is correspondent hala . what is the latest on the waiting game? >> reporter: this is coming against the backdrop of extreme suffering. what the military is doing is dropping leaflets asking ordinary gazaens to provide information as to the whereabouts of hostages and that they would be compensated financially and they could do this anonymously. and when i say the situation is dire in gaza, we're hearing from

the u.n. agency on the ground saying that if they don't get fuel urgently, they will be forced to cease operations by tomorrow evening. they are saying though they always have hope, flst no expectation that fuel will be part of the next aid shipment. now in terms of the hostage release that we saw yesterday, the 85-year-old was speaking to her daughter in the hospital describing a difficult moment when she was abducted and driven on the back of a motorcycle to gaza. but then said when she ended up in a tunnel with other hostages, she says she was treated pretty well. she was given food and medicine. that said more than 200 people are left in gaza. including the husbands of the two women released yesterday.

and the question now is we know there are negotiations ongoing. how close are we to the next release. >> thank you very much for joining us. stay safe. up next for us, jenna ellis is pleading guilty today in the georgia case. more news to come. don't go anywhere. georgia case more news to come. don't go anywhere. when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma.

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i would have declined to represent donald trump in these post-election challenges. i look back on this full experience with deep remorse. >> my only thought is i hope "snl" is watching that. hi, it's 5:00 in new york on the same day that donald trump sat in aen manhattan courtroom listening to his former fixer and attorney michael cohen take the stand against him, the states further south in another courtroom, another one of trump's former attorneys was making big news. that was jenna ellis, a member of the, quote, elite strike force team, as she referred to it that tried to overturn joe biden's victory in the 2020 presidential election. she pleaded guilty this morning in the fulton county georgia election interference case. jenna ellis is the fourth codefendant and third former trump attorney to take a plea deal out of the 19 people chrge ed by fulton county d fani willis. about the three lawyer who is

have plead guilty so far, their pleas may reshape the case against trump, supplying prosecutors with testimony from some of his closest advisers, who are now admitting for the first time that some of their actions crossed the line into criminality. ellis pleaded guilty to a charge of aiding and abetting false statements and writings, confirming that the big lie is exactly what it sounds like. a lie. here's more from her statement to the court earlier. >> in the wake of the 2020 presidential election, i believed that challenging the results on behalf of president trump should be pursued in a just and legal way. i endeavored to represent my client to the best of my ability. i relied on others including many more years of speerz to provide with true information, especially since my role involved speaking to the media and to legislators in various states. what i did not do but should have done was to make sure that the facts, the other lawyers

alleged to be true, were true. >> keep in mind, no one was saying they were true. unless google didn't work on her phone, that was easily knowable. now ellis provided that public statement and we should tell you it was not required she do any of that, she didn't have to say anything. so her taking this moment and using her platform to expect her remorse and blame others for perpetrating the lies a about election fraud must not be sitting well with rudy giuliani and donald trump right now. she appeared alongside rudy giuliani in many states as he pushed state legislatures to overturn the results in the aftermath of the 2020 election. she even drafted memos that claimed pence had the authority to refuse to count the lek tores from states biden won. it's also worth noting out of the lawyers that gave that press conference with wild election fraud conspiracy showcased, rudy giuliani is the only one so far who has not pleaded guilty.

that's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former lead investigator for the january 6th committee tim haity is here and carol lenning is back. greg, the tears are interesting. the guilty plea, more so. the fact that fani willis' prosecution has you joining us every day as another one bites the dust opinion. >> yeah, the trump 19 is now down to the trump 15 and throughout this entire process fani willis was planning on trump co-defendants.long list of this is how fani willis has built the case. we talked about this before. she did the same thing when prosecutoring gang members, and she's done the same thing when prosecuting teachers and administraors involved in the cheating about a decade ago. folks asked how she could fit 19 co-defendants in the same

courtroom, well, that was never the plan. she's building a sense of momentum that will help lead to some bigger fish. >> i just have something crossing my wire that you want ask you about abc news is exclusively reporting that ex-chief of staff mark meadows has been granted immunity and tells special counsel he warned trump about the 2020 claims. let me read system of this reporting to you. i know you're familiar with it. abc news reporting this. former president trump's final chief of staff in the white house has spoken with special counsel jack smith's team at least three time this is year, including once before a federal grand jury, which came only after smith granted meadows immunity to testify under oath according to sources familiar with the matter. those sources said meadows informed jack smith's team he told trump in the weeks after the 2020 presidential election that the allegations of voting

frautd come account to them were baseless, a striking break regarding the election. your entire work of your committee sought to prove layer upon layer, witness after witness. this is one the select committee wasn't able to get to. your retoox this reporting from abc news? >> yeah, if it's true, it is the most significant evidentiary development in the entire investigation. there's no one who was closer to the former president in the days between the election and his reluctant release of of the white house than mark meadows. if mark meadows is now finally after repeated invitation under an immunity grant telling the truth about the fact that there was no evidence of election fraud and he conveyed that directly to the president, it is really, really significant. hard to understand how significant it is. now meadows has been all over the place. he said that to cassidy hutch

son and others and in text messages and otherwise, he would tell people including the president to keep up the fight. so the problem for jack smith is he has been inconsistent in his, presentations and then he writes the book. much of the book was false. what he is saying, according to this report is so consistent with all of the other evidence in the court, but it's coming from a voice right next to the president. >> i think you have articulated the clarifying nature of a potential criminal prosecution. i take your point about his credibility problems as a potential trial witness, but let me read more of what we're learning from abc news, which is reporting on this immunity deal for mark meadows.

abc news goes on to report, the sources said meadows told trump in the weeks after the 2020 election that the allegations of significant voting fraud coming to them were baseless, striking break from trump's rhetoric regarding the election, kourgt the sources, med does told federal investigators trump was being dishonest with the public when he first claims to have won the election hours after polls closed on november 3, 2020, before the final results were in. obviously, we didn't win, a source quoted telling jack smith's team in hindsight. strump trump has called meadows one of the former president's highest ranking aids in the white house, a special friend and great chief of staff as good as it gets. this is -- when i first had a chance to talk to you, i said who would you want to talk to other than trump. it was mark meadows. gets straight at what seems

illusive and that's trump's state of mind. >> exactly. the very same claims that jenna ellis is admitting were false, that mark meadows is saying he told the president were false are the same claims that the president makes on a stage in georgia at a big rattle pit. everyone is telling him there's no basis to this. he continues to restate these false claims. again, it all points increase willing i toen an intent to deceive. not just free speech, which is claiming now in motions, but a specific intent to push information that he knows is false on the american people. in an attempt to spur them to action to disrupt the joint session. it's gold mine evidence of

intent for jack smith. and that is how it will be used in the trial in march 4th. >> i just keep thinking of how many coies of the book they are going to have to print the book process features prom innocently in the mar-a-lago gooimt indictment. the discrepe sit says sources told abc news na jack smith's investigators were keenly interested in questioning meadows about election-related conversations he had with trump during his final months in office and whether he believd is some of the claims he included in a book he published after trump left office. a book that promised to, quote, correct the record on trump. abc news has identified several sources that appear to be contradicted but what they told investigators behind closed doors. according to the book, the election was stolen and rigged with help from allies in the media who ignored evidence of fraud right there in plain sight

for anyone to access and analyze. but as described to abc news, mark madows privately told jack smith's investigators that to this day, he has yet to see any evidence of fraud that would have kept now president biden from the white house and he told them he agrees with a government assessment at the time that the 2020 presidential election was the, wait for it, most secure election in u.s. history. chris krebs is online. this is what has been shared by mark meadows, it seems that the damage to trump's case is immeasurable. >> absolutely right. it points out the grift of the entire stolen election narrative. what a powerful mote vauter it is. we did a lot in our investigation to demonstrate all of the stop the steal fundraising, the texts and e-mails that were put forth.

mark meadows wrote a book and lied to america because that fundamental message, even though it's false, sells books. so much of the motivation here is financial. from the presidential himself to mark meadows selling books, the entire stop the steal movement is a fraud scheme. and mark meadows' admission that he lied in the book that what he's saying now and said under oath inconsistent in the book lays that bear. that's going to be another powerful theme in the trial. you want to talk about motivation, it's to stay in power, but it's also to make it rain because election fraud sells and it gets people to give up their hard-earned money. >> we are covering a story that has broken since we came on the air. abc news reporting about mark

meadows receiving some sort of immunity and some of the things he's reported by multiple sources to have told jack smith, if you have any reporting on this, we want to hear that, but as a legal frame, it is consistent with what everyone has been saying about his lawyer for a long time, that he would find a way thread a needle and keep his client out of legal jeopardy. >> i would pause and say we have known for some months that mark meadows gave his full-throated account to jack smith about what he saw, what he did, what he participated in with regard to the big lie and everything up to january 6, and even after, including many of the people helping him write his book happened upon a conversation

with donald trump in which he revealed how he used classified information and pointed out classified information that he had with them on site. a whole other story for another day. we have known that mark meadows gave his full account to jack smith and had significant concerns about this claim about the election being stolen. we have seen texts and exchanges that mark meadows had with people in the white house counsel's office and other lawyers in which he made fun of the claim that there was an election that had been stolen. there was fraud enough in states such as georgia to call those counts into question. as i remember one of those text exchanges he said even my son hasn't found enough dead people that voted in georgia to raise questions about this. so it's pretty powerful stuff.

we have known for awhile that mark meadows had his doubts about this claim. i want to underscore one other element that this reveals. if measuring meadows is admitting that he made up the whole sections in his book about the election lie, that there was fraud, if he's acknowledging that those were false, it reveals to most of us reporters who have been covering this for a long time that the kind of the jig is up for a host of other republican leaders who have been trading on this story, to stay connected to voters, that they think are riled up about this. to stay connected to a group of people that they are misleading in order to went their votes. people who gobble up conspiracy theories, distrust the government and can be ooezly misled and led astray.

i think that this -- i wouldn't say it's a crack in the dam, but it will be really interesting to watch what happens for other republican leaders who have insisted that the election was stolen. lindsey graham, ted cruz, jim jordan, a host of people, many of whom are closely tied to mark meadows and donald trump. >> it's such a good point. i don't know what it takes to break a dam personally, but mark meadows, jenna ellis, ken chesebro and the election office breaking guy, that's every aspect of the cue. meadows saw the whing thing. ellis was going state to state trying to manipulate the legislatures. chesebro wrote the legal work for what they want wanted pence to do. powell was the voting machine queen. in the same two hours that the

person who was going to maybe be voted on the floor to be speaker collapsed because trump didn't like him because he wasn't maga enough on the election. it sounds like from abc's reporting one of the conditions, if it is true for which he received immunity, was this window and this testimony provided that there was never any evidence of fraud. and today a republican guy, who is to the right, couldn't be voted on the floor for speaker because he wasn't election denier eh. >> this is the incredible barrier here. as we seem to not be able to cross with facts. the facts are, as you said so well, as tim has said multiple times, from bill barr to mitch mcconnell to mark meadows, every single person that donald trump

relied on, trusted and believed was on his side because they were on his side, warned him this isn't really real. whether donald trump believed it was really real is still an open question. i think it's really important that we figure out what happens after this. we'll see whether or not the facts cross that barrier. i want to also underscore something that you raised earlier a minute ago. which is the issue that so many of these people are lawyers, it communicates to me as a journali, who has covered a lot of lawyers, that they also know how much is at stake for them professionally and criminally this these cases. some of these charges don't carry a lot of jail time, but if you are a lawyer who is going to be convicted of racketeering, good luck practiing law again.

if you're sidney powell, your law license is already being threatened very severely, but you practice in a state that prohibits convicted felons from practiing law. so her decision to plead to misdemeanor strikes me as pretty interesting. it strikes me as really interesting that many of the people who are leafing to get a plea are lawyers who have basically a livelihood at stake right now, and are looking at the facts and the possibility of conviction and the possibility of not being able to practice law again. >> it's so spot on. it's the part of the story that doesn't differ from any other prosecutions of criminal enterprises, which is what fani willis has charged in georgia. for anyone just joining us, we're covering a legal and possibly a political earthquake. abc news is exclusively reporting that former white house chief of staff mark

meadows has been granted immunity by jack smith's office. i'll read more to you. it gets at a lot of the intersection of what the committee developed evidence wise. abc news is reporting, quote, trump was already questioning the integrity of the election months before election day. the committee successful live slid the timeline back with evidence developed through others. back to abc, quote, then within hours of polls closing as trump was beginning lose key states, trump claimed on national tv it was all a major fraud, quote, frankly we did win this election. mark meadows told jack smith's investigators earlier this yearlong believed trump was being dishon when he made that statement given the fact that votes were still being counted and the results from several states were not in yet. testimony has shown in the weeks after the election, meadows helped vet allegations of fraud that were making their way from people like rudy giuliani, whom

trump put in charge of legal efforts to keep trump in the white house. meadows said by mid-december, he privately informed trump that giuliani hadn't prove produced any evidence to back up the allegations he was making. then attorney general bill barr also informed trump and mark meadows in an oval office meeting that allegations of election fraud were, quote, not panning out. so many intersections with the evidence you and the members of this select committee developed. to a point you made the first time i talked to you, none of the new evidence, none of the witnesses would be helpful to trump in terms of the facts. >> no, this is what happens when finally people's backs are to the wall with potential criminal prosecution. it sounds like, according to the reporting, that the special counsel immunized mark meadows. he initially asserted his fifth amendment privilege because he does have criminal exposure.

he's part of this conspiracy. but then he had nowhere else to turn. he couldn't blow us off like he did with the committee. he finally had to tell the truth. so the special counsel is using that powerful tool. a as you just said, he's getting corroborative additional evidence. again, the select committee made a decision that based on the record we developed, the evidence in the facts that we had had uncovered, there was more than sufficient evidence to lead to that criminal referral and to demonstrate the violations of federal criminal statute jack smith has gone beyond that. we didn't have this direct meadows. so what i always expected is exactly what's happening that the special counsel using the legal tools that are available uniquely to a criminal prosecutor with a grand jury investigatoring these facts, is aggressively crossing rating the core story. it doesn't change the narrative that we laid out. it only makes the case stronger.

all of this, all of these pleas in georgia and the immunity in washington, the sense of the walls starting to close in, finally closer and closer to accountability. >> the georgia prosecution, again, we don't know much more than what we're able to report from abc news, but that mark meadows encountered when he sought to have his charges being charged in the criminal conspiracy alongside trump and jen ellis and others, that failed and that may end up playing into a legal pressures he felt before federal investigators. >> exactly. maybe that testify he made to

try to move that case to federal court, folks feel it backfired could have played into it. but the screws are tightening. anything that happens, any sort of testimony he delivers in the jack smith case could work against him down here in georgia. we talk about the big fish earlier. mark meadows is one of them along with rudy giuliani and the former prident. >> this is interesting. abc news is reporting that meadows told jack smith's investigators that around the time of the rathens berger call, there were times hemented to resign over concerns the way certain allegations of fraud were being handled could have a negative impact, but he didn't leave because he wanted to help ensure a peaceful transfer of power. i think the electioners in georgia had their lives changed forever. they didn't see him trying to balance those things as he seals to have reportedly told investigators he did. but it is an extraordinary

revision of overturning the election and specifically in georgia. >> that goes back to something we were just discussing, which is he's alleging he's doing one thing behind the scenes while publicly he's promoing lines. he made that surprise visit to georgia to watch a as election workers were counting absentee ballots. he played a part in that phone call. regardless of what he's saying now, we know what he said publicly. that's going to play anything everything that happens at the federal trial and the trial here in georgia. >> let me little more. specifically, the role of bill barr's stewardship and the extraordinary practice of investigating claims of voter fraud.

meadows told investigators he believes the justice did the was taking allegations of fraud seriously, properly investigating and doing all they could to find legitimate cases of fraud. he told investigators he relayed all that to trump a few weeks after the election. similarly, as described by sources to abc news, despite telling investigators that giuliani never produced evidence of significant fraud in the election, his book refers to the efforts to expose the fraud and the dirty tricks on election night to people who rigged this election knew that these irregularities would come to light, so they conducted the operation that attacked anyone that dared to ask questions about what he had tone. it goes on to say, he conceded to investigators, quote, that he doesn't actually believe some of the statements in his own book. this is who they are. >> mark meadows, to me, is one of the most fascinating characters for the reasons you're just flagging.

he was a politician. he was not george bushes's chief of staff. the famous jim baker who told the president this is what you've got to do. he was a chief of staff who was trying to please the president, please republicans on the hill and make sure that they stayed in power, and often please whichever audience he was in front of. it was a problem because he was telling the president, yes, sir, i understand we need to look into fraud he was on the phone call with brad saying i'm sorry, i think we're going to find out there are quite a few more allegations and instances where dead people were being used as voting counts that were fraud leapt. he was saying things in front of the president that were enabling. and yet our reporting at "the washington post" indicates that behind the scenes, he was doing exactly what abc newss alleges

he's told smith. and that was pat cipollone, with bill barr, he was quietly conferring and saying, let's just get to the transfer of power. let's just land this plane. and it's hard to be a chief of staff who enables your president's willfully false claims that there's election fraud, which when all of that election fraud has been denied as false. and chief of staff whose privately, quietly telling the entire cabinet hopefully this will all be over soon, friends let's just try to keep the president happy until then. >> absolutely nothing on. tim, let me read a little bit more from abc's report. it gets at what we're talking about. quote, had meadows went even further while promoting his book on right-wing media when asked

by a podcast host if he believes the outcome of the 2020 election was fraudulent, meadows responded i do believe there are a number of fraudulent states. i have seen at least illegal activity in pennsylvania and in georgia referring to two key states that clinched the white house for biden. from abc news, under the penalty of perjury, meadows offered a vastly different assessment to jack smith's investigators telling them he's never seen any evidence of fraud that would undermine the election's outcome, according to what sources told abc news. one more person who may have spared someone a lengthy sentence, someone who went to the white house on after6th, my sthis aren't with those people. they should pay the maximum penalty for their crimes, but they were in the information ecosl that mark meadows was knowingly stuffing to the gills with bs. i won't say it because it makes

my eps nervous, but it is another example of a guy who if he has immunity, he's not going to jail. all the sorry saps that trump snookerred into going to washington today will. >> exactly. the other thing that the report doesn't focus much on but is a really important part of the facts that meadows possesses, which is what happened inside of the dining room on january 6th. we developed a lot of testimony from cassidy hutchinson, his chief lieutenant and others, including a poignant moment where pat cipollone comes rushing down and says they are breaking into the capitol. pat, we know he doesn't the to do anything. to the extent that he's fully truthful and corroborates the president's resistance to call off those same angry insurrectionists that are going to prison, when a lot of these

lawyers and others are not, at's really, really significant. again, it fwoez to state of mind. the president's refusal to aggressively speak out against the violence when it happens is really, really significant. i think the report says that the president over the course of the day after someone is shot, becomes increasingly concerned, but when implored early on to stop it and call it off, he says remain peaceful. stay calm. it takes somebody getting murdered inside the capitol to finally change the narrative. even then, an hour and a half later, he says we love you, but this is what happens. madows can shed light on what was going on inside the dining room on january 6th, the minute to minute account, which potentially includes the president cheering for, gleefully looking at the violence and refusing to call it off.

hugely cig can for jack smith. >> the three of you are gathered to talk about other legal developments altogether. we'll get to them another day. thank you all. the best of the best. thank you very much for spending this breaking news half hour with us. we are grateful. something special is still to come. when we come barks we'll be joined by someone who has forever be tied to this had story. somebody who has been calling for accountability for january 6th since the first hours of the first day. he was at the capitol during the insurrection. his new book is out now and he will be our guest after a very short break. don't go anywhere. ry short break. don't go anywhere. to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's bitterly cold. lacking clean water and sanitation.

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wla i ask from you all is to get to the bottom of what happened, and that includes i echo the sentiments of the other officers sitting here, i use an analogy to describe what i want as a hitman. if a hitman is hired, he kills somebody, the hitman goes to jail. but not only does the hitman go to jail, but the person that hired them does. there was an attack carried out on january 6th, and a hit man sent them. i want you to get to the bottom of that. >> there is, perhaps, no other human who has shown more vulnerability and eloquence and

sounded of greater call for justice in the wake of the brutal and deadly attack on january 6 lt on the u.s. capitol and has become our dear friend, officer harry dunn. in his new book out today, you can buy it now, he explains why he has taken this role, why he decided to be so vocal about the need for accountability after the insurrection. he writes, i speak out not because i want something for me, but because i want accountability. i want people responsible for that day, including trump and anybody else who conspired to breach the capitol and try to halt our democracy, to pay a price. just like we paid a price. i want us to never are repeat a day like that. it is a stain on our nation. officer dunn has also started a vitally important conversation about the trauma he's endured that day and every day since as he continues to struggle. he says this, quote, i'm still struggling. still trying to get back to the

man i was. i'm a lot better, but i came to realize that recovering from that day is going to be a long process. the hard part is accepting that i will probably never fully heal. joining us at the table is our dear friend officer harry dunn, author of the new book "standing my ground." i'm so happy that this is out. >> me too. >> ooum so happy for you. i want to get into all the good stuff that i like to talk about with you, but i want to start with today's news. news of immunity for mark med does, and i'm not a lawyer, but i imagine he had had something good that jack smith thought was good enough to give him some sort of cover and immunity from prosecution. what do you think of that? >> you just had had all your great notes that i kind of deferred to when it comes to that type of news. however, i like people seeing

held accountable for their actions and, clearly, there were actions that the former chief of staff took that were criminal. obviously, in the grand scheme of things, you want the entire case that's brought forth against donald trump and all the coconspirators, you want a successful guilty verdict and if that's what it takes to get it, i don't know if it's the best way, but i defer to the legal minds. >> i just said that. you have all these sorry saps, and i don't feel bad for them, but you have all the insurrectionists, some sentenced to two decades, and if there's been immunity offered to mark meadows, likely no jail time for him. >> the foot soldiers, they are the ones getting slapped. it doesn't seem right. i don't know enough about what he he can and cannot offer, and i trust that the justice department is doing what they

think is best to et get justice for the american people. >> my non-legal analysis is it better be good. >> let's talk about the boong book. i have had the privilege, you're always the first people i want to talk to whenever something on this front happens, but i didn't know about the role of your daughter. talk about that. >> first of all, she humbles me in a way. just now before today, i was getting ready to go on. turn the tv on. oh, cool. but on that day, the story that i tell about her is she was facetiming me as i was trying to find my phone to text my loved ones and tell everybodies i was okay. i wiped my eyes because i was crying and i didn't the her to see me. daddy is okay.

so i wiped my eyes with my coat jacket and it had remnants of pepper spray. and i smeared it further into my eyes. and even in the middle of an insurrection, you have to show up for your kid. i kept thinking, i'm going to make it home to my daughter. >> you also write about something else that has never come up. for the first time ever, you're given hhelmets. why? >> i don't know. that's the question. i made it clear that this is not a conspiracy. but it's an unknown question that hasn't been answered yet. like did they know ahead that this was going to be bad. people suffer issed a lot that day. and i think it will be fair for everybody to just get answers about everything, the totality of what happened that day, not just at the white house and the

planning before, but the security failures and the leading up to the intel failures and all that stuff. i think all of that needs to have a big picture to show the failures of that day. that way we can be sure it doesn't happen again. >> you write in the part that i read about the healing. and i feel like we always end up here and i have two hours of things i want to ask you. fear you won't get back to the man you were before. we didn't know you before. this is selfish. this is about us, not you, but here we are, welcome to 2023. but is there any part of you that feels like you could get used to this version of yourself in this role? and i know when you talk about trauma, everyone stops. you stick your arm in the elevator door and thes to tell your story. is there any part of that that you sit with and think like well, maybe this was a different path, but also my purpose?

>> maybe. like i said, i joined policing because i believed in the idea of public service and service to your country. my father is in the military. just an idea of something bigger than yourself. so i have always had the idea of public service, but as far as getting back to that individual and embracing this new role, so to speak, we evolve as humans. when you are faced with trauma, you don't just stay right where you are. if you do, you succumb to it. or you evolve and find a new purpose and i realize that i help people out just by being vulnerable, sticking your arm, people come and tell you their stoies. you have inspired me. it makes it worth it. it's a continuation of my publics service, but in a different capacity. >> i'm not suggesting that anything makes it worth it to go through what you went through on that day. you find yourself in these

situations where you clearly don't feel sorry for yourself ever. it doesn't come through on any page, where you have taken this worst day of probably all of your lives, and you have become this vessel for people to connect to and say, i'm not okay either. >> so when you're reading that, i say we as far as the book, there's trauma that we faced, that's not necessarily my coworkers. that's this country. that wasn't an attack on american democracy, so everybody where you're on the front lines that day, or you were in california watching on your ipad, you felt some kind of trauma or if you did,s it's valid because that was an attack on the system of government that governs us. so everybody's trauma is valid. >> what do you get the most? what is the thing -- i have seen

you walking around. you also live with people who threaten you every day on social media. what is that like? >> you have to block it out. i have been fortunate. i haven't had anything that escalated to the point where i was genuinely 100% concerned about maybe that's just my being naive. but i'm focused on a bigger picture to help individuals and inspire individuals to be resilient. it's not eases sit doing this. that's standing my ground. and i ebb courage to stand their ground. even when faced with adversity or tough times because it's not easy. i do believe we live in a world where people want the to see you

succeed. but there's a small amount of people that seem astronomical that want to see you fail. >> no matter who you are, those are the voices that drown out. i have the best viewers in television. and they love you so much. i hope you feel their love. but i will find the one person that thinks i'm a dip and obsess. >> but your top is lovely today and ten people and one person says it's decent. and wait a minute, so the nine people you discount their positive opinion of you to focus on the one individual. that's how we are. we're so hard on ourselves, we don't focusen the positives in our lives. we have to change our mind set. >> you get into it. i need to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

love you.

have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school. so, yeah. right now here in america, millions of kids like victoria and andre live with hunger, and the need to help them has never been greater. when you join your friends, neighbors and me to support no kid hungry, you'll help hungry kids get the food they need. if we want to take care of our children, then we have to feed them. your gift of just $0.63 a day, only $19 a month at helpnokidhungry.org right now will help provide healthy meals and hope. we want our children to grow and thrive and to just not have to worry and face themselves with the struggles that we endure. nobody wants that for their children.

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back with harry is called ground". let me read from it. everyone as i imagine that day and the pleasure i will feel, i'm brought back to earth by a sobering reality. even if trump is convicted, can't run for office, everyone if he goes to jail, even if everything i want the happen takes place, it won't be over.

all those politicians rallying around him and his philosophy of hate will still support him behind bars. so will the qanon whackos, racists and conspiracy nuts. fox news, news max and other conspiracy sites will continue to spread lies and advance policies that divide us by looking to blame and demonize one group of americans so another group of americans can feel superior. it's the most sort of astute and cogent analysis a this moment and our politics are our culture. they've subsumed one soot. but i feel the same way. i want the accountability for accountability's sake, but i'm not under any delusion it heals anything. >> correct. donald trump goes to jail, then, yay you're happy or -- but does the ideology of what trump represented, does the maga ideology, does it dissipate? i don't believe that it does. they just look for their next leader, so to speak.

on a personal selfish level, i'll celebrate that for a minute and then get back to the sobering reality that this country that we live in is still dominated with people that get ahead in life by spreading hate and bringing down others. >> how do we fix that? >> i don't know. i mean, i -- calling it out? >> naming it is part of it, right? >> naming it is part of it. but even still, people -- does that even work? nothing has worked. i don't know. i wish i did know. but -- but -- i can't do nothing. you have to do something. harry-ism. until there's something -- until there's nothing that can be done, there's always something that can be done. everybody has this little part of something they can do. but i don't know. >> so, when i was trying to help

ukraine, i started calling all these famous people. i don't know any famous people except you. >> oh, stop it. >> i said, listen, i don't know how busy you are, but i just thought it would be nice if everyone could do something more than nothing. maybe that's how you change. you get everyone to do a little thing. >> something different. and the betterment of mankind or this country, something for the betterment of others instead of just this selfish -- i don't know. i don't know. it's such a -- it sounds simple. how do you stop hating? how do you get the world to stop hating? you just don't hate. sound simple, but we haven't reached that point yet. >> i wonder what you -- where the book brought you in terms of your own journey. like, i remember asking you about flashbacks. you said, there's no flash back because i didn't flash forward. where's the process of writing the book be being out talking about it done for the trauma of that day, january 6th?

>> i'm processing the fact that i wrote a whole book. it's a heck of an accomplishment. i have a hard time celebrating that accomplishment because i want it -- i didn't do it for an accomplishment. i did it to tell my story. like cassidy hutchinson, for the record. because there's so many people saying their record and they weren't everyone there, which is completely false. book is to educate the american people and hopefully to inspire people also. so i'm focused on that point now. i haven't really haveh a time to reflect on how it made me feel. now, the writing process is very cathartic, and there were moments where i -- where do you go next in this book? and i would just get frustrated and say, what's the point? so, it was very -- a sobering reality for me that helped me snap out of it and say, you know what? you got work to do. keep it up. stop feeling sorry for yourself.

>> you told "people" magazine you didn't want to heal. you want some of that drive. >> doesn't that sound crazy? who doesn't want to heal? this anger, this sadness that i have, it's motivating me to still get on this tv and say, oh, him again? yeah, me again. get used to it. hi. >> they love you. >> but it's motivating me to continue to speak out and hopefully inspire somebody to -- i don't know, just make this -- make the world a better place, you know? >> i think you make every table you sit at -- i'm sure your daughter keep you honest, but you really do, it's a privilege to know you. >> thank you. >> i'm so happy about the book, and i hope this is the first of many conversations about all the wisdom in it. >> thank you for giving me the opportunity, too. i appreciate it. >> are you kidding? we saw you in the first public

hearing i said, we ned to know him. not just book him, we need to know him. he need to be part of the our family. congratulations on the book. it's called "standing my ground", a capitol hill police officer's fight. quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors we'll be right back. wayfair's big sale is coming back! get bedroom furniture up to 60% off... area rugs up to 80% off... kitchen and dining furniture up to 60% off... and free shipping on everything! save big this way day, october 25th and 26th. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible

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viktor orban. anyone ever hear of him? probably one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world. right? he's the leader of turkey. >> except he isn't. the he's the leader of hungary. if we hadn't had a news tsunami

said i might have led with that. that was donald trump praising viktor orban, the authoritarian leader of hungary, not turkey. of course when you pal around with the leader of autocrats it's easy. trump praises hungary. praising dictators while unable to locate the country on the map would be funny if he weren't the front-runner for the republican nomination of these united states. >> hi, nicolle. new reports mark meadows struck a new immunity deal. that's the dig story nicolle referred to. former aide and key witness cassidy hutchinson joins us tonight later in this program. that sho p