pentagon is trying to get the israelis to think through. i think that something that the pentagon is trying to get the israelis to think through. >> helene cooper, of the new york times, who wrote that piece on the back and forth, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner starts right now. good evening, alex. and they does news on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts good evening, alex. i think there's news on spooling of some kind. >> there's always news on spooling. we're going to cover it next hour, my friend. thank you all of you for joining us at home. today has not been a good day for the republican party.

it began with a defendant flipping in the racketeering case against donald trump. defendant ellis tearfully. we got a bombshell piece of news mark meadows has been granted immunity in special counsel jack smith's election interference case. mr. meadows reportedly told smith's team he long believed trump was dishonest about his claims he won the election, which is certainly something new. that report has not been confirmed by nbc news, and meadows' lawyer is denying it so we'll have lot later in this hour. we start with the absolute debacle of republicans in the house of representatives, which is entering its fourth week -- fourth week without afo speakerf the house. right now republicans are holding a vote behind closed doors to choose their fourth nominee for speaker in less than

two weeks. this morning after five rounds of voting behind cleeds doors, the party nominated its third speaker candidate, congressman tom emmer, and four hours later he dropped out the race. a source familiar with the matter told nbc news trump's rejection had made a successful floor vote impossible for mr. emmer. so republicans are right back to where they started. now, one of the reasons hard right republicans oppose tom emmer is because he voted to certify the 2020 election. here was congresswoman marjorie taylor greene on that very issue today. >> how much did --

>> i couldn't support a speaker of c the house. >> admitting joe biden won the 2020 election is now hearsay in the gop. to be clear here it's not like tom emmer has been a big vocal opponent of the big lie. after the election emmer was actually one of the republicans who signed o onto a legal brief asking the supreme court to step in and overturn trump's loss. apparently that is not enough. former congressman byron donalds, tennessee congressman

chuck flieschman. congressman mark green who called being transgender a disease and was nominated by donald trump to be secretary of the army but had to withdraw over his history of transphobia. congressman roger williams who was investigated by the house ethics committee by adding a carve out to a deal that would have benefitted the car dealerships he teowns. and louisiana congressman mike johnson. "the new york times" reports when republican members of congress tried to justify their votes against certifying the election, about three quarters of them relied on the arguments of a low profile louisiana congressman representative -- you guessed it -- mike johnson who "the times" calls the most important architect. ift. that isn't bonkers enough r

you, nbc news is reporting house speaker kevin mccarthy is floating the idea to have the republican conference re-install kevin mccarthy as speaker with far right congressman jim jordan as his assistant speaker. because why have one guy who just lost when you could have two? so, yes, it is a debacle down there in the lower chamber, which seems to have led republicans to revive one of the worst ideas in congressional history. >> if we go to the floor you know what i'm doing, i mean let's make no mistake, i'll be nominating donald j. trump. i kind of like the idea of donald j. trump quite honestly. >> joining me now. that's how quickly this is

moving. what does the church suggest you to. >> the churn suggests a party in chaos. trying to fulfill one of the most basic functions of governance. really, the house in many ways in our current system doesn't evennt have that much power. yes, they can keep the government from shutting down, which is of coursesh a really b deal and a thing we're all going to have to deal with sooner than i think anybody would like in november, but the senatewo is controlled by democrats, the white house is controlled by democrats. thore not putting out a broad conservative agenda going to be passed into law. their are failing at the symbolism. >> charlie, this is kinetic situation down at the house. they are votingt right now and

not on the floor. they are voting amongst themselves to determine who gets to be the next nominee for however long. mike johnson apparently if i'm right has the most votes with 85 votes. byron donalds is second. now, byron donalds, florida congressman, big trump supporter, has not served a full term in congress yet. mike johnson who "the times" refers to as the most important architect of the resistance to electoral certification -- electoral college certification in the house, what do you make of these two shall we call them front runners of the moment, charlie? >> we're deep into this doom loop of crazy and absurdity, the fact we'reit now down to plan " and plan "f" and the back e this, it's complete disarray, comply chaos. there's no idea right now that is too crazy to be vaguely

plausible because they basically burned through all the noncrazy options including some of the crazy options. so the whole notion of a unity ticket between kevin mccarthy and jim jordan, that jim jordan would be the assistant to the speaker, anis assistitant speak, a job that does not actually exist, it shows how desperate they are to come up with something. the fact we were in the fourth week of doing this is an indication there i may not be a solution. there are at least eight members not going to support any normal speaker. and there are 20 normy establishment republicans not going to allow a legislative terrorist. so there's no solution to get to 217 votes. why they're going through this -- this exercise of nominating somebody knowing that they may be dropping out after four hours is an indication --

and by the way obviously hanging over all this is the apex predator of the gop, donald trump who did flex his muscles. he does not have enough clout to elect one of his maga acolytes to be the speaker like jim jordan. but as he reminded us today, he can destroy any political career, and he is demanding absolute loyalty, an absolute litmus test of belief in the big lie and support for his efforts to overturn the election, if you want to have even the slightest chance of having a political future in this particular house. it is that crazy. >> i lisa, you have an essentia reading in "the times" today about the sway of trump begin theay gop. i'll read an excerpt. the commanding position has turned republicans into a party of one demanding absolute loyalty to trump and his personal feuds and pet causes such as the false claims the 2020 election was stolen. that's now the litmus test it appears for these people who

wish to be speaker. i believe there's been so many different candidates today, but everyone on deck right now, and the latest vote count is mike johnson at 85, congressman greens at 21, other 31 present, too. but the fact other gets almost as much as the second runner-up tells you everything you need to know about the indecision here. but i do wonder given the sort of existing litmus test of election denialism, does that signal that nobody is going to get through this process who is not an avid supporter of donald trump? >> well, it seems hard because as he pointed out trump can knock people out but can't get anyone in. it shows how divided the party remains. part of what's so striking to me about this, these are deep politicalab cuts. these are not household names. i'd be very surprised if many of oursu viewers right now are deey

familiar -- >> and he's the majority whip. the trump the chaos being part of it is the trump brand. they either like that brand of politics or really, really do not like that brand of politics. this just feels like some people most of america has never heard of kind of tarnishing the entire party with this sort of brand of chaos and disorganization. and that concern is certainly something i've been hearing from a lot of republican strategists and pollsters and people like that. most of them believe perhaps by the time the next election rolls around, a year or so, this will be forgotten. you havebe biden out there dealg with really volatile -- >> with war. >> yeah, with war.

dealing with multiple wars. and then you have the republican kind of going back and forth on a bunch of people that most people have nerve heard of fighting about a position most of america probably doesn't really understand what it does or doesn't do. and so it's d exactly the contrt democrats want right now, and all they have to do is sit back and let it happen. >> to lisa's point, charlie, you talk about the power of the moderateser here. what continues to confound me is why moderates who understand what is happening to their own party, the fact that the house has been leaderless, speakerless going l into the fourth week no why are there not entries to democrats? why don't moderates take the baton -- when we think of moderates iswe not what they ar but people who are are not actively trump acolytes, why do they not take the baton away from the maga caucus and try to milwaukee a deal with democrats? at what point do they break

glass on that? >>gl that's an interesting poin. to your point, though, they're not actual moderates, and so that's one of the reasons why they've been reluctant to do that so far because that apparently is the cardinal sin. shutting down the federal government, paralyzing the congress at a time of international crisis apparently is not asre bad as actually cutting a deal with democrats because i think they understand this would be in this modern political -- in this modern republican party, this would be political suicide. but at a certain point when you've gone through all the other options, this may be out there because it's clearly do-able and a huge number of them say let's have power sharing agreement.

nobody knows where we're going. and we've certainly never seen a political party squander a majority or inflect wounds on itself like this party. i can't think of a parallel where a political party has damaged itself in the runup to the election and to lisa's point their hope people will forget about all this. well, we're not close to a resolution, and we're very, very close to a government shutdown. they are so g extreme, so bizar, so uncontrollable that it clearly is going to play into -- if you're a democrat, it's hard to imagine a scenario that is more attractive especially knowing they're going to nominate donald trump as well, the chaos candidate. >> there's the process which is completely cay utic at best, and the process, again -- the first

ballot of the evening, closed door voting among the republican conference, congressman mike johnson who is called the most important architect of the electoral college objections of theto 2020 election, that man i the top pick at present among closed doors. we have a lot to get to on this kinetic night of news including what republican lawmaker has to say about the fate of this leaderless republican party and his role in the chaos. but first -- >> the whole thing about flipping they call it. i know all about flipping. for 30, 40 years i've been watching flippers. everything's wonderful and then they get tenev years in jail an they flip on whoever the next highest one is or whoever you can go. it's called flipping and almost ought to be called illegal. >> donald trump did not manage to make flipping illegal during

his four years as president, but today he probably wish he had. stay with us. id but today he probably wish he had. stay with us

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we were getting ready to win this election. frankly, we did win this election. >> on election night 2020 with votes still being counted, donald trump made that very premature victory announcement launching what would becoming widespread fraudulent effort to convince voters and lawmakers

and the courts that he had won. but now we know curtancy of abc news that trump's own chief of staff at the time, mark meadow, believed trump's victory statement was dishonest. he reportedly told special counsel jack smith's team, obviously, we didn't win. and we know that because abc news is reporting tonight that mark meadows has entered into an immunity deal with federal prosecutors. according to their sources, meadows has testified at least three times including once before a federal grand jury. a lawyer for meadows, however, is disputing abc's reporting. a lawyer said to nbc news tonight, i told abc their story was largely inaccurate. people will have to judge for themselves the decision to run it anyway.

joining me now is joyce vance. he think he has an immunity deal but his lawyers pushing back against that. how do you sort of read the tea leaves in all of this? >> right, so i think part of the confusion, alex, may be over the fact there's a difference between someone who is indicted and decides to conclude a plea deal with the government. they plead guilty and they agree to cooperate in exchange for favorable treatment. that's the sort of cooperation deals that we're seeing handed out down in georgia. meadows, though, i think is in a different category. he has been offered immunity in exchange for his testimony and perhaps using the verb offered is a little bit misleading because when you're immunized you really no longer have the option of not testifying. you have no fifth amendment right, nothing that keeps you from testifyingch the only real question is the government giving you what's called use

immunity or transactional immunity. use immunity just means your testimony can't be used against you. you can be prosecuted but your own testimony can't be used. in transactional immunity, you're actually being given immunity from prosecution for the subject matter that you testify about. so it sounds like mark meadows has testified pursuant to the grounds of some form of immunity that he's not actually a cooperating witness. >> ah-ha. does that explain why there's no deal down in georgia since that indictment where it was first handed down. >> i think it could. and this is such a curious situation because you don't expect to see a witness or defendant plead guilty to criminal conduct in one place and not another place. and in essence by testifying under a grant of immunity in d.c., meadows is preserving his ability to walk this tightrope he's been walking along where he

cooperates just enough to avoid indictment, just enough to avoid getting on the criminal side of the line without really conceding he's done anything wrong. >> well, mark meadows is the tightrope walker if there was one in the trump administration, he's be it. abc news is reporting that meadows informs his team he repeatedly told trump in the weeks after the election that the obligations of significant voter fraud were baseless. he's not the only to have done that, but why is it meaningful for meadows to have done that, being mark meadows is an unindicted coconspiratorter in a federal case. >> in a perfect world every prosecutor would want mark meadows as a witness. he was with them when calls were made to georgia. no better witness to talk about donald trump's state of mind and what he knew. the problem with meadows even if

this is his testimony is that haz told different stories at different times and to different people, told an entirely different version of the facts in his book, and so with meadows as your witness you have both a credibility and a reliability problem. will the jury believe him, or will he stick to it or move back the other direction as he did after he started cooperating with the january 6th committee? but if he's a credible witness on this issue trump was told repeatedly and understood that there was no fraud, that's really important for prosecutors. >> do you -- abc also reports that meadows was specifically asked by federal prosecutors if trump ever acknowledged to meadows that he lost the election, and meadows told investigators he had never heard trump say that. is that problematic for the special counsel? >> well, i think it's problematic in the sense that prosecutors do need to prove that trump knew.

but, look, mark meadows from the get go has been one of those witnesses where prosecutors needed to know what he would sa. didn't really matter if it was good for you or bad for you, they just needed to know where he stood, so he couldn't take the stand, for instance, as a defense witness and blind side them. plenty of other evidence trump knew that he had lost, what meadows says here isn't really material, but the certainty about what he would have said would have been important to jack smith. >> i do wonder, joyce, given another trump attorney pleaded guilty in the georgia case, how much pressure that is going to put on either meadows or how much interest there would be in terms of fani willis offering meadows a plea deal in the georgia case. >> so that's an interesting question, alex. we don't know if fani willis has offered a deal, if she's interested in having him sort of line up on team prosecution with her given the problems with his conflicting statements in the

past. but certainly he has to be feeling pressure at this point. and if that deal is available, now would be the time for meadows to take advantage of it. he has a very experienced lawyer, a doj insider who at least this far has managed today help him avoid indictment up in d.c. but very different trajectory in georgia where he's one of the codefendants who's still in the case, and they'll have to make a decision about where they stand shortly. >> yeah, watch this space, a lot going on here. joyce vance, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thanks. when we come back, a little over a decade ago, he was the leader of the republican party and then came donald trump. what happened to mitt romney and the rest of the gop. a journalist will join me to talk about his explosive new biography on romney's reckoning. biography on romney's reckoning. the dexcom g7 continuous glucose monitoring system eliminates painful finger sticks,

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donald trump is a phony, a fraud. his promises are as worthless as a degree from trump university. he's playing the members of the american public for suckers. he gets a free ride to the white house and all we get is a lousy hat. >> romney worked furiously behind the scenes to prevent trump from winning the republican nomination. after two failed earlier presidential bids, romney considered running once again in 2016. romney was willing to wage a quixotic and humiliating presidential bid if that's all

it took. but romney didn't think the gambit would actually succeed in taking down trump. romney was, of course, correct. and since then trump's grip on the republican party has not just pushed mitt romney to the outskirts, it has made him a marked man. a few days before january 6, 2021, senator angus king of maine spoke to a high ranking pentagon official. after that call king immediately called romney. this is from his book. there's talk of gun smuggling and bombs and arson. romney's name has been popping up in some frightening corners of the internet. king isn't sure romney will be safe. romney then texted senate majority leader mitch mcconnell. there are calls to burn down your home, mitch, to smuggle guns into the capitol. i hope sufficient security plans in place, but i'm concerned the instigator, the president is the

one who commands the reinforcement the d.c. and capitol police might require. senator mcconnell never responded. on january 6th as rioters began to breach the capitol and senators were ordered to evacuate, coppins write he lost his composure. romney turns to josh hawley and romney starts to yell. at least one reporter in the chamber recount seeing him throw his hands in a fit of fury and roared this is what you've gotten, guys. josh hawley remains in the senate and now mitt romney is on his way out, a pariah in a party he once helped lead. coppins takes note, what he didn't consider in this moment is an uncomfortable question, is any of it my fault, too? we're going to talk about that

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how you doing? >> put your mask on. >> don't tell me what to do. >> please put your mask on. >> i'm standing 6 feet away. i'm going to do it because i want to have a chat with you. why aren't you supporting president trump? >> that was senator mitt romney being confronted by an angry

trump supporter at the airport on january 5, 2021. and it is emblemtic in the trump era and contributed to his decision last month he'll not seek re-election in 2024. in advance over this over the course of two years he gave interviews and exclusive access to one journalist, mckay coppins. romney reveals all of his thoughts on trump and the republican party at a moment when both remain very much in crisis. joining me now is the author himself, mckay coppins, staff writer at the atlantic and new book out today, "romney the reckoning." congratulations on a book so well-timed. first, the level of just profound personal animus that romney holds for other leading

lights in the republican party. ron desantis, there's just no warmth at all, and that's one of the nicer quotes. newt geng rch, a smug know-it-all and too pleased with himself. sanctimonious, severe, too strange. we must have someone who can complete a sentence. ted cruz, frightening scary, a dem dpaug. huckabee, a huckster, bobby gendal a twit. with friends like that, i am eager to know whether this distrust, this distaste for the leaders in his party was -- was it always in him or did trump really catalyze a sense of anger and frustration? >> well, i think what's important to know about this quote is some of them are things he told me over the course of

those two years. some of them are from his journals dating back a decade, right? and so what that shows is that for a long time he has had a sense that the republican base gravitates toward figures who he finds unimpressive to say the least, sometimes frightening, right? but especially in the last few years he's seen the party become more and more populous, more and more extreme. and, you know, those quotes have started to get a lot of attention in the last few days, and people have said, oh, he's consumed with resentments and he's mad he lost his election. i think what he it really reflects is a profound disappointment in the leaders of this party, this party he once believed in so much, that he thought related all these things like free trade and democracy promotion, and now he sees it become a cultive personality around donald trump, and he sees

these people he once did respect or at least hold in high regard rally around donald trump even while in private they tell him donald trump is a menace, he's terrible, but we have to do this because we have to win our next election. i think something after january 6th in him just snapped and he was finally ready to unburden himself. >> i do have to because you bring it up, does romney see himself as part of the trajectory towards trump however incremental? he did run for higher office multiple times. in 2012, he helped move the party on immigration and the social safety net. does he see himself implicated at all in the indignant roots of trumpism? >> that's kind of the question that hung over for two years. i asked him multiple times how complicit are you, and to his

credit he spent a lot of time grappling with that question. he -- basically the story of his career over the last 10 years, 15 years is flirting with the far-right in his party. he could harness the energy of the extreme forces in his party but not give in -- not let them take over the party. he told me when he was running for president his whole strategy was i've just got to get to 50.1%. that means standing on stage and accepting donald trump's endorsement, i'll do it. now he looks back at those episodes with some regret. he told me if i did something to give credibility to donald trump as a political figure, i regret it. but he also thinks i think it's hard for him to accept too much blame because he has been one of

very few republicans who has tried to push back against the spread of trumpism in his party when almost no one else is willing. >> well, voted for trump's impeaching. it seems he also reserves a special place in hell for lack of a better term for republicans he knows knows better. including josh hawley or ted cruz, who not only abide by donald trump but support him, who give him the bully pulpit, effectively. >> one of the things he told me people like ron johnson who's a conspiracy theorist, i'm actually more aokay with him because he seems to genuinely believe the crazy things he says. but what he said to me is josh hawley and ted cruz know each other but effect a holier-than-thou righteous

indignation that he knows is a put on, and it really drives him crazy. and that frustration animated a lot of our conversation. >> it's hard to know whether the story of mitt romney will be one that is seen as a tragedy or a story about a hero or maybe it's both. you have this devastating anecdote of him basically waington, d.c. apartment in eating salmon on a hamburger bun catch-up watching ted lasso himself, and he's now leaving the party kind of crushed by the machine he was once in charge of. >> i think he deserves some credit for this last few years coming to terms with what his party has become and what complicity the kind of mainstream establishment he was part of has in what that party has become. but he's paid a price, right? he's paid a price for his opposition to trump. not only has it effectively ended his political career, he

really would have struggled to get elected in utah, but he's lost friends, lost relationships. i've seen people in this book, people who once considered themselves big mitt romney fans or partisan republicans turning on him, and i think he deserves some credit even if it was later in his career being willing to say the things that few in his party are willing. >> and same thing to you, my friend. you got everything. i still can't believe it. what a book. mckay coppins, may you move many units, my friend. you deserve it. thanks for joining me. >> thanks, alex. >> still ahead as the situation in gaza becomes more dire and israeli citizens continue towait for word of loved ones taken hostage, the man who oversaw president obama's national security communications say there are unexplored paths out of this conflict. deputy national security advisor ben rhodes joins me.

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what i am about to show you is very hard to watch, so if you'd like to take a minute to prepare yourself or to step away, you can do that now. okay, here we go. these are videos out of a neonatal intensive care unit in hospitals across gaza. throughout the gaza strip there are 130 premature babies whose lives right now depend on this type of intensive care, care that relies on an uninterrupted

power supply. some of these infants cannot be without these machines for even 5 minutes or they die. and because israel's blockade is not allowing fuel into gaza, the odds of these premature babies dying needless deaths, well, those odds increase by the hour. the world health organization announced today that six hospitals in gaza have already had to shutdown due to lack of fuel. now, this is video of an israeli woman being captured by hamas on october 7th. in her arms you can see her 3-year-old and 9-month-old boys. all three of them are believed to be held hostage in hamas by gaza. according to the israeli military about 20 of more than 200 people believed to have been taken are under the age of 18. the toll this war is taking on civilians is unfathomable, but

it is also cyclical. ben rhodes, former deputy national security advisor for president obama writes in the new york review of books, the history of the israeli palestinian conflict, the middle east, and the u.s.' own recent experience suggests that violence is more likely to beget more violence, that trauma will beget more trauma. it is easier to start and escalate wars than to end them. and the consequence of war are always unpredictable. joining me now is ben rhodes, former deputy national security advisor for president obama and co-host, of course, of the podcast pod save the world. ben, thank you for joining me as we talk about just a wrenching topic. you help contextualize this moment in terms of 9/11.

>> i describe witnessing the 9/11 attacks as a 24-year-old in new york city and being filled with rage and believing the pathway to national security came through vengeance and not wanting to hear the political context how we got there or alternative action. if someone told me our response would lead to the war in iraq, the war in afghanistan, the united states casting aside laws of war we painstakingly have abided ourselves for decades, the ugliness and xenophobia in our politics, so much was released by our own reaction that was not intended and

frankly did not turn out the way we wanted to. i think with israel you have understandable rage and desire for accountability and demand for security in this moment. but as we are already seeing in gaza before a ground invasion, this is already unleashing potentially unintended consequences in term of the human toll in gaza but also risks of escalation all across this region from the west bank to lebanon to other parts of the region we're seeing violence in iraq and syria and yemen and other places. now is the time to think very carefully about what will be most likely to bring about a security and a peace that stops this cycle of trauma and violence that has been the characteristic of the israeli-palestinian conflict for so very long. >> yeah, in all of the discussions about this it seems like there's almost a false binary presented. it's either just massive garbage in gaza or nothing. but those are not the only options on the table. i wonder if you could elaborate more broadly on what you think

are alternative paths here for israel. >> it really depends what is the objective of this operation. i think there are some in the far-right side of the israeli coalition. and it's not me thinking. they've basically said this themselves. who maybe wanted to essentially push these palestinians, 2 million out of gaza and essentially take that land. then i think there are some in the military establishment who want to deal a huge blow to hamas and military capabilities. and then i think there are some voices for peace in the long run. i think if the objective is on the other end of this war and whatever is done to hamas, but if the objective is peace between israelis and palestinians, there has to be thinking done about how do you achieve that? how do you not do something going to put that further away? i think that alternative exists

and from the fact a lot of arab countries they have no love for hamas. you could be like this is the time for you to build an alternative leadership. we might not go in and certainly reoccupy the gaza strip, might not have a full-scale ground invasion and perhaps take out their leaders where but we need to couple that with an effort to significantly invest in a totally different palestinian leadership that can be a part and more lasting peace. i think anything that doesn't incorporate the objective of peace between israelis and palestinians, will leave us with some kind of cycle of violence while also raising all manner of risks of escalation across that region and other places. >> you write so eloquently about

the role the u.s. needs to play in making sure this doesn't end in mass civilian casualties. ben rhodes, my friend, thank you for your time and thoughts tonight. we have some breaking news in the chaos in the house. republicans have chosen mike johnson to be their fourth speaker nominee. congressman johnson was a leader in getting republicans to supports the big lie in the house. he organized his colleagues to sign onto a lawsuit to overturn the election. the house now adjourned until noon tomorrow which is the earliest we could see a full floor vote for speaker, that if congressman johnson lasts that long as a speaker designate. that is our show for tonight. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next.