donald trump is different than any defendant, civil or criminal in the united states. >> danny cevallos, thank you for that. in a move at his fraud trial, donald trump took the stand. the judge didn't buy what he had to say. now in addition to his originally $5,000 fine. he's been find $10,000 on a very busy wednesday. that is going to do it for us this hour. make sure to join us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. our coverage continues with "katy tur reports," she's got a lot to talk about right now. we do have a lot to talk about, including the trump fine which we're going to get to in a moment. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. after three weeks and four failed votes, there's a speaker of the house of representatives. congressman mike johnson won the gavel this afternoon, 220

votes, in fact, johnson is the first to get every republican vote since john boehner in 2011. so who is he? he is a staunch social and religious conservative from louisiana in his fourth term in congress. he's cosponsored a 20-week abortion ban and voted for a national abortion ban, and he served on one of donald trump's impeachment defense teams. but what he is most known for is not just refusing to certify the 2020 election but being the quote, architect of the objections. as "the new york times" reports, quote, in december of 2020, mr. johnson collected signatures for a legal brief in support of a texas lawsuit attempting to throw out the results of four battle ground states won by mr. biden. the supreme court ultimately rejected that suit, but not before mr. johnson convinced more than 60% of house republicans to sign on to the effort. he did so by telling them the initiative had been personally

blessed by mr. trump, and the former president was anxiously awaiting to see who in congress would step up to the plate to defend him. that's reporting against "the new york times." last night, when a reporter asked about those efforts, republicans surrounding johnson booed that reporter and then laughed about it. >> john, can you help lead the efforts to overturn the 2020 election results? >> next question. >> joining us now, nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake, and "punchbowl news" cofounder and msnbc political contributor, jake sherman. i want to get this to you first. when i had been talking to ken buck repeatedly about the speaker's race, one of the things he told me for jim jordan and steve scalise is he wanted both of them to say that the election was not stolen, to certify that joe biden won the election. this guy, congressman mike johnson, we see coming down the

stairs right now, we might have to go listen to him, not only did not certify the election, but he was the architect of the objections, how did this come to be? >> reporter: because politicians are not often intellectually consistent and the reality is they were exhausted of the speaker's race. mike johnson is relatively unknown, a relative new bee when it comes to the front lines of republican leadership. he had served in a lower level leadership post for a long time. he's not easily demonizable on the campaign trail. he's not a paul ryan or someone like that who caught the brunt of republican attacks. they want to get this over with. and many have said that publicly. those concerns were brushed to the side. >> looks like they're going to have a news conference on the steps of the capitol. when he starts speaking we'll go to it. give a little more about who mike johnson is. >> reporter: he wants to answer

the questions millions of americans have, who is this guy. he has a chance to introduce himself to the country, and he started doing that in that speech from the speaker's chair, making a big point about his own personal back story. growing up in shreveport as the son of a firefighter, describing himself as a man of great faith, and suggesting that's the way that he wants to lead the people's house. as you pointed out, he's also going to be the first maga speaker of the house. this is someone who won in 2016, along with the group that came in with donald trump. he has always been a strong trump supporter. while stylistically, he couldn't be more different than donald trump and jim jordan, in terms of policy and beliefs, he is right in line with that element of the party, and i think it's that combination of, you know, trumpian policy and sort of slick or old school republican style that is the package that was able to get mike johnson over the hump today, as you said, with every republican vote.

he's going to get a little bit of a runway from the conference as jake pointed out, that is exhausted by all of this and want to seat body function a little bit. he's going to run into the same problems kevin mccarthy had on spending, funding for ukraine. it's going add up quickly, and johnson has to deal with it while assembling a staff, getting used to raising money, and the extraordinary glare that comes with being speaker. you played the clip of him not answering a question. he managed to avoid questions going from his old office to the floor. he's going to be surrounded by capitol police detail and reporters every other second he serves in the job. the learning curve will be steep, and we'll start getting a sense of how speaker johnson wants to handle it when he answers questions for the first time in the role in a few minutes. >> that's majority whip tom emmer speaking at that podium, the last nominee for speaker. never got to a floor vote.

he got enough votes in that private ballot but couldn't get the support to put it to the floor. he's introducing mike johnson of louisiana. we'll go there in a moment. forgive me, this cough comes up, and i apologize if i start hiccupping. let me ask you about the moment we played a second anxiety, republicans surrounding johnson booed the reporter who asks about the objections to the election. i imagine that that is going to be cut as a campaign ad for democrats against front line republicans saying in a place like the hudson valley in new york. >> i think emmer will introduce scalise. we have a couple of seconds here. here's the reality, they don't want to talk about 2020 anymore because it's not a narrative they can control, not a narrative they're comfortable with. mike johnson was where he was in

2020, and has to deal with the consequences but the larger issue, katy, and i keep hearing this from democrats, and it's absolutely right, mike johnson is on the far right of the spectrum when it comes to reproductive rights, lgbtq issues. i mean, he is somebody, i talked to him yesterday before the -- i think it was before the emmer ballot about this. he said tom emmer was in support of same-sex marriage and the federal government recognizing same-sex marriage. he said, i have been clear about where i am, and i have never changed my opinion. that's not an impact quote, but said something of that nature. mike johnson is not for the federal government recognizing same-sex marriage. he's a very socially conservative republican politician, and for better or worse, and by the way, there is something to be said about a new face on top of this conference. kevin mccarthy started wearing on a lot of people. there's no doubt about that. but every republican is going to have to own mike johnson's opinions.

that's the nature of the beast when it comes to the speakership and when it comes to these 18 or however many a dozen, more than a dozen republicans in joe biden's democratic. and what we saw last night, and what we keep seeing over and over again, garrett and i hear this all the time, the abortion issue is a powerful issue for democrats. much more powerful than republicans ever anticipated, and mike johnson is on the far right end of that, and there's no question about that. >> powerful for democrats because a lot of independents don't agree with how far the republicans are taking it. moderate republicans don't agree with how far republicans have taken it. again, the abortion issue stands to be a big one comes next year. he's also, as you said, staunchly conservative, very religious. he signed ton to don't say gay, teaching anything having to do with sexuality or sexual orientation to children. there's also vice reporting about how he has chaired the study committee, campaigned

against amazon, or campaigned to amazon to reinstate books about gay conversion therapy, that parent's guy to preventing homosexuality, and repairtive therapy for male sexuality. amazon had taken the books down and the republican study committee was asking amazon to reinstate them. we don't know a lot about mike johnson. he hasn't been a very prominent figure, and i wonder, i guess that is part of the reason why he was able to do this because he doesn't have as long a record as some of the other people trying to be leader, and he didn't have donald trump going after him like tom emmer did. >> i think that's exactly right he fell into a sweet spot, around long enough, enough leadership experience he made friends and built up chips around the conference. but he hadn't been here so long that he collected enemies or people that had grudges against him, when that was the problem

that bedevilled other speaker nominees before him. everybody was able to get to around 200 votes. it was having 15 or 20 people who hated your guts, which was the problem, and mike johnson doesn't have that. we saw that on display on the floor. house democrats who surely don't agree on policy wise coming up and putting an arm around him, congratulations him. he's someone who has built some of the relationships. and i think, by the way, the touch point many will have is on the judiciary committee during the donald trump impeachments, someone who has been a vocal defender of donald trump. kind of across the spectrum of trump-related issues, and that was critical to him ascending to the speakership. one of the key things that hurt tom emmer was that he was never thought to be a loud enough defender of donald trump. mike johnson knows that's going to be part of his mandate, i think, from the base and from the former president who

supported him. i suspect we'll hear him asked about that now. >> here is speaker mike johnson. >> this is an extraordinary team that has been assembled to serve the american people. steve scalise represents so much in our home state of louisiana. one of the things he truly represents is perseverance and hope. i was reminded of the scripture that says suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, and characters produces hope. what we need in this country is more hope. the people have lost their faith in our institutions. their faith is at an all-time low. and one of the reasons they have lost is it because the congress over the years has not delivered for the american people well enough. we're in the majority right now. we have gone through a little bit of suffering, character building, and you know what it's produce, more strength, perseverance and a lot of hope. that's what we're about to deliver for the american people.

[ applause ] we are going to speak with clarity and conviction and consistency to the american people. we're going to tell them what we're for, what agenda we are pursuing and why it is best for every american, why it will give them more liberty, opportunity and security. we're going to speak to that clearly, act consistently, and exhibit two things here, trust and team work. and this group will deliver for the american people. i said it in the chamber, and i will say it here. we're going to govern well. and i think the people are going to be very pleased with those results. i'm so grateful and humbled to have gotten the unanimous vote on the floor by all of my colleagues here. [ applause ] we went through a lot to get here, but we are ready to govern, and that will begin right away. you heard me talk a lot today. i'm not going to belabor the point because the sun is bright, and it's too warm for the fall, we're going to dispense with the

w speakership because we have no time for either one. the american people's business is too urgent in this moment. the hour is late, the crisis is great, and america, we hear you. we are reporting again to our duty stations. that will begin in just a few moments. this entire group is going to go back to the house floor and pass our resolution in support of the nation of israel, our closest ally in the middle east. you're going to see an aggressive schedule in the days and weeks ahead. you're going to see congress working as hard as it has ever worked and we're going to deliver for the american people. i'm grateful for this opportunity. i want to thank you for being patient with us, and i promise you it will be worth it. god bless you. [ applause ]. >> questions are being shouted. does not appear he's going to be answering any of those

questions. all right, so garrett, jake, back with us. i think i'm struck by the fact that mike johnson is so new, his record has not gone through the ringer, you know, there's a lot about him that people don't know. i wonder if that was a boon for republicans because they needed somebody that everybody didn't, you know, didn't have a strong opinion about, whether it's going to end up being an albatross, jake. >> that's a good question. listen, he ran for vice chair of the house republican conference, a position for which there's not much vetting, i would say, the media and otherwise. a low level position with minimum responsibility. i think you'll see over the next couple of days and weeks, people dig into his record. he served in the legislature in baton rouge. he has three bills he has put into law. one was the post office and the other two were local issues in louisiana. not somebody with a huge legislative record.

obviously something who has been involved there, i think listen, again, katy, the national issues are what's going to matter to democrats, and in the election, and things like abortion, and things like lgbtq rights, already hear democrats talking to them. important to moderate republicans and independents who have been turned off as we have seen in recent years by the right word drifting or drifted by now. it's pretty right wing, house republican conference. >> let me ask you about legislation, garrett, coming up first is going to be funding for ukraine and for israel. he's talked about israel. where does he stand on ukraine? >> reporter: it may not matter where he stands personally, katy, he's going to be boxed in by the conference on this. house republicans have made it clear that enough of them don't want to see israel and ukraine aid linked together. it will be difficult to bring it to the floor. here you've got someone who has

not been in oval office meetings, who has not been meeting with democratic leadership in the senate, who has not been privy to the best intelligence available to the gang of eight, there's an enormous opportunity to put pressure on the new speaker to change his tune and get on board with what the senator majority and minority leaders want to see here in terms of passing the supplemental. i think the new speaker may be headed my way momentarily. >> i'm going to keep you on the screen. if he passes by, we want to stick with you. >> nobody wants that. if he comes back, i'll flag you. >> the second thing, continuing resolution, he didn't vote for the budget deal or cr. >> he has been a little more clear. speaker johnson made it clear, he knows house republicans can't get their appropriations bill done before the cr runs out. he has talked openly in a letter to the conference about trying to pass those bills, including,

by the way, working on them this week. trying to get back quickly. acknowledging it's going to take more time to get them through senate and the conference if that's going to happen. it suggested another cr, continuing resolution that could go to either january or april depending on the will of the conference. wh in a conference that hates crs is the one thing they hate more is getting jammed every christmas by the senate, that passes it and sticks it over to the house where they get up being forced it pass it or shut the government down at christmas. acknowledges that's what's likely, and suggests this idea of extending the deadline into january or sometime in the spring to give house republicans a little more time. now, and maybe jake can be a good person to speak to this. that's the kind of thing if it had come out of kevin mccarthy's mouth, you would likely see a whole lot more push back from

house conservatives. here you have a conservative member of the conference who's going to get a little bit of runway for those who elected him to pass something less popular to buy themselves a little bit of time given everything we have been through. >> it does seem like there were a lot of personal issues there that maybe got in the way of getting some of this business done. we'll see if the same is true. the president has released a statement on this. as i said when this process began, whoever the speaker is, i will seek to work with them in good faith on behalf of the american people. while house republicans spent the last 22 days determining who would lead their conference, i have worked on those pressing issues. proposing a historic supplemental funding package that advances our bipartisan national security interests in israel and ukraine. secures our border and invests in the american people. these priorities have been endorsed by leaders in both parties. we need to move swiftly to address our national security needs and to avoid a shutdown in

22 days. that is the statement from the president of the united states. a truncated statement. he says a lot more. let's go to brendan buck, and john boehner, msnbc political analyst. your reaction to speaker mike johnson? >> i have no idea what kind of speaker mike johnson is going to be. i'm struck by how new he is, and recognizing that, having been there, parachuted into being speaker, the incredible learning curve that comes with this job. there are so many things right now that mike johnson doesn't know he needs to know, and it's one thing when you come in and have time to operate, as you were talking about, there are pressing things he's going to have to figure out right away. he's not going to know where the bathroom is on the first day. i think it creates a big opportunity for steve scalise. i think mike johnson is going to have to lean on steve scalise to

be one of the most powerful majority leaders we have had in a long time. mike johnson talked about decentralizing the speakership. there's a sense that the source of all the problems is speakers are too powerful. i think that's silly. if that's the case, someone is going to be driving outcomes and that may be steve scalise, and we may have a situation where he is a weak speaker, and republicans want a weak speaker. >> de facto speaker, steve scalise. >> let's go to democratic congressman from south carolina, jim clyburn, the assistant democratic leader in the house. congressman, thank you very much. what do you think of this new speaker? is he somebody the democrats can work with? >> thank you very much for having me. i think so. i'm going to take him at his word. he seemed to be very civil in his approach to things, and that is what is necessary in order to create the kind of climate

within which you can have bipartisanship. i think the problem we have had in the past is people are talking bipartisanship, and every time they get a chance to speak to the public, bipartisanship goes out the window, which is exactly what got us here in the first place. after a strong bipartisan vote to keep the government open and to address issues important to the american people, we had the former speaker, kick off the next morning with strident comments that did not make sense. i think what we'll do here is hope that this new speaker will create a climate, maintain an atmosphere that will make people want to work together and find common ground. i'll take him at his word that he's going to do that. >> i appreciate your optimism on this. what about his past position on

say the election of president biden? >> a lot of that depends on whether or not, in doing my research, and i will research this, whether he was being political and personal. i can understand the politics. i'm from the south, and i've studied louisiana politics as well as south carolina's politics. it's kind of interesting to me that last time we had this kind of divisiveness in the country was the 1876 election, and two of the states involving that were south carolina and louisiana. and so i'm going to be taking a hard look at his district, his politics, and make up my mind whether or not to believe his actions or his words. >> how do you feel about his positions on lgbtq rights, on abortion, i mean, do you expect him, i know you're still looking

him up. he's relatively new. given where his votes have stood in the past, do you expect to see more legislation on social issues, conservative legislation on social issues? >> well, i'm sure that's going to be the case. the question is, whether or not it will be brought to the floor in an open manner and put up for a vote. because i do believe very strongly, we can get bipartisan votes for a lot of things if we don't put in these pills. for instance, we start talking about a woman's right to reproductive freedoms. as a father of three daughters, i have strong feelings about that, and i would like to see how he brings that to the floor or if he will bring that to the floor. and so these are the kinds of things we'll look at. asking him to depart from the

basic beliefs but respect mine. if my beliefs are different, put the issue on the floor, and let's have a debate and a vote. >> on your point about bipartisanship, the first words that johnson spoke when he stepped up and took the gavel from hakeem jeffries, leader jeffries was i do look forward to working with you on behalf of the american people. i know we see things from a very different point of view. but i know in your heart, you love and care about this country, and you want to do what's right, and we're going to find common ground there. congressman jim clyburn, thank you very much for joining us. we appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. joining us now, former adviser to paul ryan and john boehner, brendan buck. his positions on abortion, do you see that as a problem for republicans generally going in to 2024? >> i think the issue is a problem for republicans generally. i don't know that mike johnson

changes that. the first thing republicans did this congress after getting beat on this issue in the last election was bring up a series of bills on abortion. this is who the republican conference is right now. what was happening under kevin mccarthy was happening with steve scalise. they're going to lean into that, whether or not that works out for them, i'm pretty skeptical. all of these things that we're talking about, and we're learning about mike johnson, putting him sort of on the far right of the scale is just a reflection of that's what this conference is. >> do you see them working with democrats? i know he had those kind words about working together, and democrats caring about the country as well. do you see that playing out in practice given how conservative he is, and where the current republican conference currently stands in regards to the democrats in general? >> whether it's mike johnson or

whoever these people that become speaker. there's a certain reality. just because mike johnson is speaker doesn't change the fact that joe biden is president and the senate is run by democrats. they are limited in what they can do to make law. agenda stop pretty quickly, and ultimately he's going to have to work with democrats, and that's what i'm interested to see. it doesn't matter how conservative you are going into the job, the job requires you to be bipartisan. you will have to see how long that halo of conservatism is around, how long those people are willing to give him a pass because he's a conservative. at some point, you're going to have to do bipartisan deals and you're part of the swamp. >> to get anything done, you have to be bipartisan when the other party has the white house senate. in this case, the other party has the white house and the senate. brendan buck, thank you very much as always. coming up next, surprise, the judge in the new york fraud trial just called donald trump to the stand. what he asked the former

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back to the breaking news out of new york city where donald trump just took the stand in his civil fraud trial. joining us from outside the courthouse is nbc news correspondent dasha burns. the judge all of a sudden asked him to take the stand. what happened? >> reporter: a lot of drama in the last hour, in fact, former president trump just stormed out of the courtroom to everyone's surprise, some gasps in the court. his secret service agents chasing him. the motorcade lining up for him right now, after taking the stand. here's how we got here. earlier today, former president trump talked to reporter outside of the courtroom. he called the judge a partisan judge, and also said quote, would the person who's very partisan sitting alongside him, perhaps even more partisan than he is. now, here's the crux, the person sitting next to him is his law

clerk. the gag order that judge angeron placed on donald trump was an order barring him from talking about his staff after he made disparaging comments about that clerk on social media. trump's attorneys say he was referring to michael cohen. the judge wanted to be clear so he put trump on the stand. he was only on the stand for a minute or so asking him who he was referring to. trump said cohen, and the judge found him not credible and fined him $10,000, said do not do this again or next time will be worse. afterwards, the cross-examination of michael cohen continued, at one point, trump's attorney asked the judge for a direct verdict because quote the state's key witness has just testified. the defendant did not inflate his numbers, essentially asking the judge to finish the case in the trial right there. the judge immediately denied that motion, and that is when the former president stood up

and angrily stormed out of the courtroom, just quite an unexpected day with a lot of twists and turns here, katy. >> that is really interesting. dasha, thank you so much. we're going to load up the video of him leaving the courtroom if we can find it. joining us is former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, paul butler. this is in regards to a gag order, the judge found his team had not entirely complied with it. there was a web site post regarding what he initially said about the judge's law clerk on social media that was taken down on social media but not on donald trump's web site. he was fined for that. and then today, sound like the justin sylvester had enough. >> the gag order was narrow. trump was allowed to disparage bns witnesses like michael

cohen. the gag order applies to court staff. we can imagine the jump thinking donald trump, there was only one kind of comment you can't make, and you had to go there so the judge is trying to protect the privacy of people who work in the courthouse, and their safety. the judge told donald trump to his face that he didn't want anyone to get killed, and that's the risk that prosecutors have suggested over and over concerning trump's violent rhetoric. >> how far is this judge going to be willing to go? are we going to see a series of fines if this continues or could we actually see this judge or any judge for that matter put donald trump, the former president, with all of his secret service, behind bars? >> so the judge fined donald trump $5,000. that didn't work.

today, $10,000. and trump will violate again. i think the next step will be a bigger fine. it's true, the judge has the power to lock donald trump up, and he's threatened that. i think it would take a really egregious violation for that to actually happen. >> paul butler, thank you very much. we got other donald trump legal news. this time in d.c. for months we have wondered whether mark meadows, his former chief of staff was cooperating with jack smith in the special counsel investigation into donald trump and the 2020 election. after all, mark meadows had gone curiously quiet, and now we might know why. abc news is reporting that meadows spoke with jack smith's team three times this year, including in front of a federal grand jury after he was granted immunity to testify. nbc news has not confirmed this reporting. and meadows' attorney has called the story quote, largely inaccurate. joining us now is nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent. ken dilanian. walk us through this, ken.

>> it's not clear whether mark meadows is cooperating. in order for his lawyer to allow him to speak to fbi agents or testify in front of a grand jury, he would have to have some kind of limited immunity, otherwise he would take the fifth amendment. that would be the purpose of jack smith granting him immunity. it doesn't mean he can't be prosecuted. whatever he was saying cannot be used against him. what he said, according to abc news, undisputed by anyone in trump world, he has never to this day seen any evidence of fraud that would have overturned the election, and indicated that donald trump won the election, despite him saying that in his book and other places, and then he told donald trump at the time that there wasn't enough evidence to keep pursuing those bogus claims of fraud, and that's somewhat important because he would be a powerful witness. there are a few people who are closer to donald trump in any more meetings and rooms with

donald trump, while all of this was going on than mark meadows. prosecutors need to prove that donald trump knew he lost the election. if you think the bank took your money, you're still not allowed to rob a bank, right. it would be really helpful for the d.c. jury to have that evidence that actually donald trump was told by one of his closest advisers that he lost and these claims of fraud are actually baseless. >> if this reporting is true, it's interesting because mark meadows has not made a plea deal in fulton county. not had a conversation we know of with d.a. fani willis trying to overturn the election in georgia. that would indicate he's eve moving in the direction of making a pa deal with her and cooperating. >> it sure wouldn't. we could say the same thing about the people who have pled in fulton county, sidney powell, we have no evidence that she has cut a deal with jack smith. it stands to reason. generally if you're cooperating or testifying or pleading guilty

in one criminal case, and there's a related investigation out there. you know, you have to be consistent because you're going to incriminate yourself in one venue, if you're speaking to the other venue. it stands to reason, as all of this shakes out, more and more people cut deals in fulton county, that will have an impact on jack smith's case. >> interesting day indeed. ken dilanian, thank you very much. coming up next, what nbc news and our own raf sanchez saw when the idf showed him raw footage about the october 7th hamas massacre. what a palestinian american says is happening inside gaza as he waits at the rafah crossing to get out. to get out

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through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. >> translator: we are shelling on hamas. we already eliminated thousands of terrorists, and this is the beginning. at the same time, we're getting prepared for the ground invasion. i will not tell you how, when and how much. i will not go into all the considerations that we take to heart because most of them are not even known to the public, and that's how it should be. >> prime minister benjamin netanyahu addressed his nation today reiterating that a ground invasion is coming, but he would not say when. in the meantime, israel has been repeatedly striking gaza, even amid the growing international

calls for a humanitarian cease fire. and now, in an effort to remind the world why israel is striking gaza and waging war against hamas, the idf released body cam videos of the october 7th massacre from hamas militants. joining us now, is nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez. you got the unlucky privilege of viewing one of these videos. tell us what you saw. >> reporter: katy, this is some of the most difficult footage that i have ever seen. this was 46 minutes long. it was one scene of horror after another. i watched some of those isis beheading videos in 2014, 2015 when they came out. those were terrible, but they were a couple of minutes long. this is 3/4 of an hour. the israeli military is not releasing the full footage, because it's so graphic. they allowed us to watch it. of those 46 minutes, the worst

2 1/2 of them were a sequence inside a kibbutz, you see an israeli father and his two little sons, they're in their underwear, they run out of their house in the early hours of the morning to a bomb shelter. a hamas terrorist throws a grenade, kills the father, wounds the two little boys, and they carry each other, basically, back inside the house, and you can hear their voices inside the house. one of them says why am i still alive. and then he tries to tend to his little brother's wounds, and he says, can you see out of this eye, and the little boy says no because his eye has been blinded with shrapnel. and a hamas terrorist takes a bottle of coke out of the fridge and drinks from that. as we are seeing seeing images, the israeli military is trying to remind the world about the massacre that sparked this war,

and that's part of the reason they're putting this footage out today. katy. >> i'm not quite sure what to say to that. raf. thank you. joining us now from doha is nbc news chief international correspondent, keir simmons. what are the qataris doing to help release the hostages. >> reporter: katy, some contrast to what raf was describing there, i guess you could describe here a little bit of hope for those families of all of those hostages who were taken during that attack that killed 1,400 israelis back on october 7th. at the highest level for the first time in public, the qataris saying that -- and this is the words of the qatari prime minister, at any moment in time, we will see some breakthrough, hopefully soon. remember, it's estimated, it's thought that already around ten americans amongst those hostages being held. the qataris are being criticized

for allowing a hamas office here in doha, but the israelis praising the qataris for this work this this intense mediation. we have seen four hostages released and now working to try to release a larger group. with knowledge of the talks, though, there are still challenges, in order for a large group to be evacuated, to be freed, it would need hamas to go and get them from different places, and then to bring them out in a convoy. so, i mean, that would would be a scene of hostages from different parts of the world, some children, some wounded, being brought out in larger number. in the likes went seen in recent history. >> keir simmons, can you tell us about timing on this? i know there's been a lot of talk about release, and we've seen four people released so far. four women.

do we have an idea of what the israelis are looking at. what the qataris are looking at in terms of when? >> reporter: the talks are ongoing. there's a clock ticking, which is the potential ground invasion, that benjamin netanyahu is still talking about. there isn't all of a sudden time in the world plainly. another aspect i'll share with you, an understanding of the negotiations, the talks, to free those hostages over the past few days, they have been difficult at times. for example, one pair released across into israel, another pair across into egypt. it looks like the reason for that, at one point, hamas was making demands, israeli weren't ready to accept, and gave out their i.d. numbers in an apparent attempt to force israeli hands. and finally hamas did agree to

release them. it looks like because they were released in a different way, in a different place, that's just a kind of glimpse of just how fraught and fragile these talks are being mediated by the qataris here. we're talking directly to the israelis and to hamas, and you can imagine they're just as fraught right now. >> keir simmons, thank you very much. and earlier today, with the australian prime minister, president biden tried to thread the needle supporting israel, saying israel has a right to defend itself, but also acknowledging there's growing concern from the international community that innocent gazans are bearing the brunt against the fight in hamas. >> israel has the right and i would add responsibility to respond to the slaughter of their people, and we will ensure israel has what it needs to defend itself against these terrorists. that's a guarantee. hamas is hiding behind palestinian civilians, and it's despicable and not surprising

cowardly as well. this puts an added burden on israel as they go after hamas, but that does not lesson the need to operate and align with the laws of war. for israeli has to do everything in its power. israel has to do everything in its power, as difficult as it is to protect innocent civilians. >> former israeli ambassador to the u.s., michael oren. i'm sorry, i'm still so horrified and disturbed by what raf sanchez reported a moment ago, and i know we're more than two weeks out from what happened on october 7th and the horror of it, the reminder is really difficult to bear, and in the two weeks that we've been discussing this, there have been some pretty terrible images coming out of gaza as well, and i think there are a lot of people out there wondering if there's a way to get out of this without more loss of innocent life, even after just the tremendous horror of what raf

just described. >> i've spoken to several people who saw that movie, in certain ways their lives will never be the same again, that the image, they mentioned the two boys who came out wounded from the attack on a grenade in their house and the father being killed, the boys come out covered in blood. there were other scenes that were also indelible, terrorists ferreting out children under a table and shooting them one by one, young women being brought out, executed, and worse. it's indelible. in many ways, this country is living on that horrible day of october 7th because these stories keep oncoming out. and by the way, it's a major departure, we never used to publish pictures of our wounded or our dead, certainly, our enemies used to do that, out of a sense of respect for their

families and respect for the dead, but this is a truly unique situation in which we've never as for the situation in gaza, no accounted for. one likes to see civilians this was a major departure. suffer. but we have to move these civilians out of the combat zone. if they stay in the combat zone, which is northern gaza, then the level of civilian casualties will go up manifoldly. >> how do you get out of the combat zone? >> you do your best. there are many ngos working in gaza, they could move them out of the hospital zones, we do our best. the big problem is not using the patients out, it's that hamas makes its headquarters under the hospitals, and that's going to be very very difficult for us. one of the great complexities of this battle zone, and again, i fought in it, i know what it's like, is not only that gaza is densely built up in the north where alleyways and cul-de-sacs, all mined and heavily booby

trapped, but underneath is an entire city that hamas has dug of tunnels and bunkers, miles and miles and miles of them. one of the released israeli hostages talked about being brought through this labyrinth of tunnels. they're all armed, and fighting in the tunnels would be very very difficult. can you imagine if there were a million civilians on top of the tunnels, how can we possibly get to hamas in that way. the only way to end the fighting, to answer your question, because i won't dodge is it to beat hamas, uproot it and defeat it. >> how do you defeat an idea. you can take out the leadership certainly, but how do you defeat the idea and how do you defeat the sense of anger that could be created or hardened by the strikes falling on gaza. and that's going to be inevitable. people are going to get really angry. i'm wondering how do you defeat the idea? >> the same argument could be made, katy, by, let's not attack

al qaeda after 9/11 because the al qaeda people are angry. let's not talk the isis people after -- >> i hear you but i don't think it's as -- can we say it's a parallel comparison? they were not living in densely populated areas in a strip of land -- obviously there were all sorts of complications and i'm not going to oversimplify it, but the actual landscape is different here. >> you want to tell that to the people of folusia, and i know i'm not supposed to ask journalists questions, but i don't think you want to do that. it's much more complicated in gaza because al qaeda and isis didn't dig tunnels. they didn't have time to dig tunnels. it's much more complicated. we understand the complexities, and the moral challenges. the president talks about them frequently, and i think the israeli army is, i say this

unreservedly, the most moral army in the world. we have a strict moral code. that can't change the fact that we're dealing with a terrorist organization that's using its civilian population as human shields, using hostages as human shields. hamas tries to stop them from leaving because it wants them to be used as human shieldings. that's the best we can do. nothing is perfect here. we have to understand that only way that life can go on in this country, in the state of israel, if people can be secure again, that we can restore our deterrence power, we live in a profoundly dangerous neighborhood is by uprooting hamas. and finally, the last question, can we uproot the idea of hamas? no more than you can uproot the idea of isis, and al qaeda and hezbollah. it's the nature of politics, and you can degrade them, and look how al qaeda was degraded, thousand isis was degraded, we have to do the same with hamas. >> does this end with a

two-state solution? >> it ends with i hope. i'm not a representative of the israeli government. i'm a citizen. >> you are an expert in it. >> i go way back. i was an adviser to itzak robbie. as long as hamas is in the picture, the chance of moving forward are very very difficult. not only does hamas kill palestinians who want to make peace, and they kill them, hundreds of them in 2007 when they took over gaza, but today, according to all polls, were there free elections in the west bank where mahmoud abbas, in the 18th year of his four-year term, hamas would win in the west bank as well. degrade hamas, and convince palestinians that hamas is not the way, you'll never have the opportunity for peace. that i'm telling you after 30

years of experience. >> let me ask you about what's going to come next, if you're able to degrade hamas, take out the leadership, do all you can to uproot it, what comes after? are you hearing enough from the israeli government about a plan for the day after, learning the lessons from the united states that there was not a plan for the day after? >> yes, and i was in washington during those years as well, and i cautioned the united states about not having a plan. so we've come to this with a lot of very painful experience. i do not think that israel wants to be in a position of reoccupying gaza, certainly not indefinitely. nor do we want them holding the keys for gaza. it's very important israel engage in intimate discussions with american allies and arab friends at the morning after, about how this can be a regional or international effort to foster a responsible leadership in gaza. gaza is not desert.

gaza is very very fertile land, wonderful coastline, immense potential there. there's no reason this can't be one of the most flourishing pieces of real estate in weeks if it's not a terror state. i think it's an interest, not just of israel, it's in the interest of every state and reason and the interest of the united states and our democratic allies that gaza emerges as a peaceful and prosperous entity. >> a horrible situation. you hate to see people suffer, and again, the stories from october 7th are awful, what can i say, they're awful. ambassador michael oren, thank you for sticking with us. we appreciate it. coming up after a break, we're going to take a hard right turn and go back to the news about donald trump taking the stand, being fined by the judge. lisa rubin was in the courthouse, she's going to join us in 60 seconds. don't go anywhere. ds don't go anywhere. ution means cg the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare

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. donald trump took the witness stand in new york city. he stormed out of the courtroom, and apparently he is back inside the courtroom. joining me is lisa rubin, msnbc legal analyst who has been inside that courtroom. what's going on? >> reporter: i wish i could tell you. all the public was asked to leave the courtroom after michael cohen was finished on the stand at approximately 3:45. i left to come outside, hopefully to find our cameras and report to folks like you what's going on. that's when i learned that court was over for the day, which struck me as mysterious, it's usually over at 4:30. we learned that trump is back inside the courtroom without any members of the public present. we also know that attorney general letitia james of new york has left the courtroom and left the courthouse. trump is there without tish james. it appears that both sides lawyers are there. what they are discussing with the judge remains to be seen. as you know, earlier today, judge angoran put trump on the

stand to ask what he was referring to when he spoke to the press about the person sitting behind him, when he was talking about michael cohen, when he was referring to a highly partisan person next to the judge or to the judge's law clerk. the judge after taking the testimony didn't find trump credible. fined him $10,000 against the repeated protests of all three trump lawyers present. whether that's what they're discussing remains to be seen. >> we will, i'm sure find out soon enough about what is going on inside that courtroom. lisa rubin, thank you very much. i know you're going to be on stand by for many hours to come with this news. thank you. back to capitol hill where the house has elected a new house speaker, mike johnson, after three weeks. ali vitali joins us now. ali, lets get an update on our top story for today. >> reporter: the update is on our top story is they've got a lot of work to do that they have been sitting on for three weeks. one of the questions i asked the

newly elected speaker is not about what comes next but statements and actions he has taken in the past, specifically with regards to the 2020 election when he came down the front steps of the capitol building and spoke to reporters. it wasn't so much a press conference as a brief address but i still tried to shout those questions. he once again ignored them. this is the second time in as many days that he has been asked about the 2020 election, and has ignored reporters' questions on it. certainly that's something we'll continue to follow up on. in the meantime, he has pushed forward with a plan that he has sent to his colleagues earlier this week about what he hopes to do next. you can pull it up on the screen here. the first tng on the list is the potential openness to doing aonnuing resolution to keep the governmentopen. of course the deadline is november 17th. that's cominp real fast. they've got a l o appropriating and a lot of desions to make about government spending before then. if they can't, this is something he's saying they can do, a continuing resolution to keep the government open until nuary or april.

in the now minted speaker's words, so the senate doesn't jam the house around the holidays. that's something all of us might be happy to hear. he has said they need to push forward on condemning hamas, that resolution, the first thing the house took up after it got back to business today. >> ali vitali, thank you very much. after three weeks, there is a speaker of the house. his name is mike johnson. he is from louisiana. he's never held a leadership position. he's a religious conservative. somebody who's voted for a national abortion ban, 20-woke abortion ban, and that's something democrats are talking about. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right