>> welcome back. it is now midnight on the east

coast, and we are still following breaking news out of the state of maine. a police source says that at least 22 people were killed in shootings in the city of lewiston, the second largest city in the state. law enforcement officials say some 50 to 60 people were wounded in multiple locations, including a bowling alley and a bar and grill. residents in lewiston, auburn, and lisbon are being urged not to go out, and shelter in place. that is approximately 50,000 people on relative lockdown. earlier this evening, police released photos of a man carrying an ar-15 style rifle. law enforcement says they are currently searching for him. his name is robert card. he is a person of interest in connection with the shootings. they say he should be considered armed and dangerous. it is reported he is still at large. tonight, the community is justifiably on edge, as this urgent manhunt continues. >> the police stormed the

building when we alerted them to the fact that one of the back doors had been left ajar. so, we were told quite firmly to get out of the building by about -- they were about as many police officers in the building as there were knitters. >> oh, wow. is this a big building? >> -- >> no, it a one storey building. -- almost all the lights are motion censored. so, if anybody had come down and hit the hallways or something like that, we would have seen them coming long before we would have heard them. >> okay. >> so -- >> so they evacuated the building -- >> -- >> sorry, can you say that again? >> we are outstanding in the cold. we are about as safe as we can be right now. >> so, they took you out of the building because they need to search the building, in case

someone was hiding in there? is that your understanding? >> correct. >> okay. and they didn't find anybody? >> to the best of my knowledge, the shooter is still loose. >> has anybody told you officially how many shooters there are? >> no. >> joining me now, nbc's investigations correspondent, tom winter, and jonathan the deets deitz of nbc news. -- >> yeah. >> people are panicked, they are home, they are scared. how do they sift through these calls at a moment like this. >> yeah, there's a number of things that 9-1-1 operators really do incredible work of trying to sit through and figure out, okay, what are you actually telling the? are you close to where we think this individual is? what we know or how you know what you know -- and then find a way to prioritize and get that information to law enforcement

officers. obviously, we have seen from the images we are looking at on screen right now, we know how this individuals dressed, and, at least, as we say, a couple hours ago, of the type of weapon that they have, and somebody sees someone into similar type of clothing that matches the description that is now quite public, that is helpful. the mainstay police tweeting in, really, the last 60 seconds, a vehicle of interest was located in -- as jonathan dietz reported early -- they say they are now asking residents to shelter in place as -- to locate card. so, at least as of this moment, according to the main state police and all the -- wchs that they are focused on that lisbon area, at least at this time. as you and i have been talking for the last hour or so. so, obviously, this is a wooded area, a rule eerie in this part of maine -- >> so, they think he is on foot? they don't think he's in a different vehicle? >> there is no indication for the from what i've seen, that anything in law enforcement circles, that he -- could that have happened we

just don't know about it or could that have happened in law enforcement does not know about that? of course, that's possible. at this point, though, there is no indication that he is in another car. but of course, that could change, as things go along. but we don't have any indication of that, and it appears that they are, at least, for now, focusing on that liz bin area, because they had to ask people to shelter in place. >> and he's a local. so, even though the area is wooded and it's dark, he knows where he is. >> right. somebody from burton, maine, so, not too far away, understand the area, and so would be generally familiar with these particular location. born april 4th, 1983, just to add to that, i don't know if we mentioned that previously. and obviously, the fbi have confirmed he is on scene they are, atf assisting as well. but the main state police, obviously, have an awful lot of troopers that they can bring into this and help out the lewiston police department. >> jonathan, what are you thinking about right now? >> i know that information continues to flow out of law enforcement agencies, and some

of that information has been shared with tom and me. again, from the press conference, there was that cautionary note about the number of dead and the number of wounded and the latest bulletin he's putting the death toll between 15 and 20 i. no local police earlier had said 22. so, again, it's all over the place. and that is why, during the press conference, the public safety commissioner said he does not want to throw out a specific number of fatalities, because they are just trying to steal piece this altogether between the two scenes of where the shootings took place, the number of people rushed to area hospitals. it is a chaotic scene with many hundreds of police descending on the area in an attempt to find this gunman. again, the two shootings took place, one of the bowling alley, and one at a local bar. as tom mentioned, the vehicle has been located, and the fbi putting out a statement that they are assisting --

and again, we were told dozens of injured. the latest bulletins says it is about 50 who were injured. but they've stress that not all of them are the result of gunshot wounds, that there was a stampede, and a couple of the locations where the shootings were taking place. some people were tripping, falling, getting stepped on as people were fleeing and trying to find a safe place from this shooter, who is armed with an ar type rifle. and shooting at the innocent. we heard from a local journalist a short time ago that, and evening like this, it is filled with teenagers and young adults who are just out having a good time. and we know bates college and other colleges are in that lewiston area. so, just when we start to hear stories of who these victims are, it is going to be pretty devastating, certainly, for the state of maine, and for the nation, when we start seeing

the names and faces that are just going with an unconfirmed number of casualties from tonight's mass shooting. >> and the president and the vice president have been briefed. it was corn whole night at the bar and grill. as you said, it was teen night at the -- quite confident that there were most likely young teens, who was only seven pm. and people were just -- susan sharon. she is deputy he's directed four main public. radio she joins us by phone from city hall in lewiston. she has lived in the auburn area for 30 years. susan, this is your community. tell us about how you are feeling right now and what you want to know about your town. >> it's just a shocking situation. you hear about these things around the country, especially as a reporter. and recently we have heard stories of -- there have been some shootings

in lewiston and auburn. i have heard reports about guns being found in crime scenes, that police are investigating a lot of guns in this community. this is an area. lewiston, auburn has a population about 50,000 people. these are old middletown's. people have close connections. there is a franco community, there are close connections for people. a lot of somali refugees settle here about 20 years ago. so, it is a community that is close to my heart. and it's shocking, no matter the number of potential victims here. it's shocking no matter what. i was outside the hospital today, we are, tonight, some of the relatives were gathered, awaiting news for their loved one. and it is just heartbreaking. it is absolutely heartbreaking and devastating. >> that is what i am wondering. how are people getting information? how are they finding out if their loved ones had been injured in this attack? >> i think it is very confusing. which is why we were just told

at the end of the news conference here at city hall that the auburn middle school has been set up as a reunification location for people who are concerned about friends and loved ones who may have been in either of these two locations tonight, and concerned about their well-being. they have set up a place for people to go and potentially receive information and -- about who they are and why they think they're missing. >> when you are outside that hospital, what were people telling you? >> i heard from one young man who is outside the hospital with his mom. and his father is the general manager of schemengees, which is a billiards pool hall. and he was awaiting news to find out his father's condition. he did not know what his condition was, and his mother, obviously, very upset. and so they were just awaiting word, as were so many others. >> how is log forsman

communicating with local residents. how are people finding out what they should do? they have gotten the message that they should shelter in place, but i'm just thinking, you've got 50,000 people hunkered down, many of them heavily armed in -- maine is a state where a lot of people have hunting weapons in their homes, and our hunch hunkered down and justifiably. and they are terrified. how are people getting information? >> these alerts, as you probably know, these alerts have gone out on our phones. if you live in androscoggin county, you have probably received multiple alerts on your phone tonight, telling you to shelter in place, lock your doors, don't go out on the streets, if you can help. it is a, people have received those. at first it was first the city of lewistown. then it was expanded to androscoggin county. and now, most recently, ethan news conference, we were told that the vehicle, or a vehicle

of interest, which is located in lisbon, which is about 15 miles away. so, a shelter in place has also been issued for that city. >> maine is a permit-less carry state. lots of people have guns for hunting purposes. but you really don't see a lot of gun violence -- you have been reported there for, what? two decades? >> yes, more than two decades now. i think it is always shocking, even though you do not -- as a person going around town, it is not as if you see people openly carrying firearms on the street. you are aware. that it is potentially out there. but it's not something you see. we do read about and hear about guns being seized during crimes. this is a common thing in america. but i would say it is still absolutely shocking. it's absolutely shocking to have, potentially, this number

of mass casualties in a city of this size. >> how do you expect the community -- i know it has just happened in the last few hours. how do you expect the community to change, to heal in the coming days? it is as though -- it seems like everyone must be one degree of separation away from someone that was at the bar and grill or the bowling alley. >> i think it is going to take a while. i think there will be a coming together of this community. i hope there will be. i know that on my own phone i have received so many texts and so many calls. and i know my colleague has to, just people calling and making sure that we are okay, people that i have not talked to in a while. so, somebody called me from overseas. everyone knows someone around here. that you are connected to. so, it will need to be a healing. and i expect there will be.

>> you are in city hall right now. what is happening where you are? >> actually, they moved us out of city hall. they have closed city hall tonight. so, i'm sitting in my car outside city hall right this moment. >> do you feel safe? when >> i will feel safe when i turn off the light of my car. but i feel, okay, i have my colleague with me. >> have you ever covered anything like this in all your years reporting in this area? >> not like this. we have not had a mass casualty event like this in maine. not this number, no. i have not. it is not something i have had experience with. >> what do you want us to know about the people of maine, the people of lewistown? >> the people of lewistown? as i say, it is a city, and the

second largest city in maine, and it is an old mill town. it is always the kind of place where people are always hoping that it is always going to pull together and something better, that there is hope for, that there will be new business here, that there will be unity here, that the divisions of people will be better. it's just what you hope for any community in america, that you hope that there is something that brings you closer. that's where this place is. it's an old middle town. it's had its challenges for sure. but i love this town, and that's why i have chosen to live here. >> i'm grateful that you have -- one susan sharon, thank you very, very much. if you have any updates for us, please dial back. we would be appreciative to speak to. you >> okay, i will. >> i want to bring in msnbc

senior law enforcement analyst cedric alexander. he served as a member of president obama's task force on century 21st century police policing and was the former -- director in the cobb county, georgia. cedric, i'm glad you are here tonight. -- this person of interest is a firearms instructor. he had military training. what does that mean to police as this man is at large? >> certainly, what it will mean to police, if the community at large is even more of a threat. he is a firearms instructor. he certainly has familiarization with a number of caliber types of weapons in terms of its usage, its mechanics, in that the has told others. if he has been militarily trained, he certainly may have tactics that he could -- aware of in his training that he could utilize, if need be. so, this is a heightened level

of threat from police in that community, and also for the community at large. and this is why it is so important that he is apprehended right away. i am certainly glad to know he has been positively identified. they know who they are looking for. and that is going to help them significantly in this investigation as it moves throughout the evening. but he, being a firearms instructor. that is certainly of major concern. >> the shooting took place, or began to, just before seven pm tonight. does anything stand out to you about the length of time it is taking to apprehend him? for near mere pedestrians like us, it feels like a lifetime. but maybe it is not in a situation like this. >> certainly for law enforcement, it feels like a lifetime as well. nobody -- would want them off the street

as, certainly, police do, so that they can protect the community and keep them safe. but when you have an event such as this, we don't know how much planning this subject may have put into this event, or if it was spur of the moment. we don't know. and he could be, for all we know, somewhere, where he may have already taken his own life, or he could be hidden somewhere. he could be in plain view somewhere, and yet to be identified and to be brought into custody. so, i think, as we go through what they're certainly going to be a great deal of -- but i am confident that he will be apprehended, particularly that we -- and that that will allow those investigators and those other

agencies that are part of this investigation -- it will help them immensely to bring him into custody. >> wow. lewiston is really -- it is not at the border. and we are just getting reporting that massachusetts state police are now telling people in certain areas to shelter in place as well. what does that tell you about this search? >> when you have cities that are closely aligned to or within close proximity to each other, and even to neighboring states, he certainly do put out alerts over a widespread area, to ask people to shelter in place, and of course to notify the local authorities that are there in the state of maine, or in the state of massachusetts or any other states that are located continuously connected to maine.

and so it becomes important that everybody remains on high alert until this subject is brought into custody. and so in doing so i think there would be very -- law enforcement to do that, and you have that working collaboration to ensure that -- the state of massachusetts. >> tom? >> to that point, united states police as obvious experience with these types of manhunts, where we -- the boston bombers, where we -- there's obviously i-95. is the main artery along the southern portion of maine, into massachusetts. so, i would not be surprised if they just protectively wanted to make sure that they did not have anybody crossing in their. but as jonathan and i have been reporting, the car has been left behind. so, we have no indication that this individual would have the means to move that quickly to massachusetts. but certainly the type of thing, because, as i explained earlier, the new england state police agency share information

amongst themselves that they would want to be extra prepared. and they have the resources to do so. >> tom, i have to interrupt. our local affiliate is speaking to the mayor of auburn right now. let's listen in. >> -- go home and hold their families and go to sleep, and wake up and -- >> -- >> what we did is, we took the witnesses of the two locations. we actually brought them to the holding areas to interview them, clear them, and then we wanted to look, bring them all over here, so we could have what we call a reunification process with their loved ones. just a proper way to do it. we want to make sure that the evidence could be gathered in a proper protocol could be gathered. >>reporter: could you talk to us about -- the three ages of the witnesses -- we >> all ages. it was all ages. there was -- i just talked to some teenagers. and it was all ages. >>reporter: what can you say about the law enforcement officers working this very serious serious situation? it's unbelievable.

we have our tire force out here for auburn, plus lewiston, counties, state. that's one thing about maine. we if you are not from maine, you want to understand. but -- i've got pulling volunteer rescue in case people need it. this is an all hands on deck situation. so, yeah. we can train for this, but we can never be completely prepared. but i have been talking to a lot of our officers tonight, and we all should be proud of them. >>reporter: and that support -- goes beyond -- >> the, on a lot of phone calls for the country, text messages from folks. and everybody knows about this, obviously. it made national news. but at this point we are really going to focus inside our community, we are going to heal our committee. we are going to persevere. we are going to get through this. and it's no time not to. so, it will take a while. something like this does not just get solved overnight. nobody can expected to. but we have got a really strong

community. we have overcome a lot. we will overcome this. >>reporter: -- >> there? release. it's really release, if you think about it. this is a happier place right now, and the entire area. this is a reunification center where -- people, witnesses that saw traumatic events, are coming together, their family and loved ones who were worried to death about them. they are coming together. so, it is happy. on the flip side of that, you are seeing the turmoil and the trauma they are going to, especially the witnesses. and that, unless you've been there, you can't really understand, you can't really describe, frankly, other than that you can feel empathy for them. that's what we are going to try to do them. we >>reporter: were the witnesses between events are now? >> they were -- centralized, safe location. we brought them there and, obviously, police did as well, as they were clearing the scene. it's gonna be a long process, clearing the scenes. with him we -- once everyone was settled, we can bring them back here safely. and obviously all the states warrants statements were taken. that needs to happen.

so, investigation's investigation. and that is of paramount importance at this time. >>reporter: forgive me for asking. in other mass shooting incidents, and on the parts of the country, the reunification point has sometimes been a moment where a loved one comes to the tragic realization that the relative did not make it. >> yes. >>reporter: have any of those interactions taken place here tonight? >> yes. i will just leave it at that. >>reporter: what sort of process have hospital workers -- >> i have not talked with the hospital director. so, i'm unsure. i'm sure they are extremely busy. and we all need to respect that. they are working with known victims right now, whether the they be casualties or force out fatalities. they are going to work through the appropriate -- mental health support networks that we have. we actually have trained professionals here from the state police as well as local churches that are trained in crisis response, that are actually helping people through this. >> how long can we expect the

center to be open? >> until it is done. anything else? >>reporter: >> okay. well >>reporter: -- >>reporter: inside -- was a couple -- >> -- cedric, can you hear me? i want to bring cedric alexander back into this conversation. cedric, i want to talk more about this may not, whether it is on foot, or he is in a car. is one of the reasons they want people to shelter in place is to keep him off the road? to make it easier, if he is on, that they can spot him? >> absolutely. it certainly, the less cars you have on the road, it is certainly the better for law enforcement to be able to move through those communities as quickly as they can. in addition to that, it's very important that people who shelter in place because of the dangerousness of this individual until there's apprehension, and just be eyes

and ears for the local police in your respective communities. so, what police is asking is not very much from the community. in fact, they are partnering with the community by asking them to shelter in place. and let's get as many vehicles off the road as we can. they certainly could be on foot. it certainly could be in another vehicle. or, who knows? he could be a lot closer to what they think. but here again, we don't know all the information that police is working with at this very moment. this is an active investigation. and they are going to be very responsible in terms of sharing a certain amount of information until the subject gets -- is taken into custody. >> cedric, for the thousands of people who are home, they are sheltering in place, and they are terrified, they may be watching. what is your advice to them right? now >> is that i am quite sure that people are hurt, they are

in pain, they are frightened, they are angry. a number of emotions, certainly, with people who live in that community, who are going to be affected by the names of the victims and the folks who have been injured by this subject. it's going to have a mixed impact on that community. but let me say this. for the number of years that i have been involved in public safety and have seen these types of incidents over the years, in a number of different places, a number of different incidents, conversations we have certainly had here, here at msnbc, before -- he will be brought into custody. it is just a matter of time. it is going to take a little time. we ask everyone's patience. just work very closely with your local law enforcement. they ask you to shelter inside, shelter inside. if they ask you to stay off the road, stay off the roads. this is important. because the subject need to be taken into custody.

if you hear something, see something that is of suspicion, notify your local authorities but be confident that they are going to work diligently. and i've seen men and women across this country, there was in the profession, and those who -- are civilians in the profession, they -- until this subject and subjects like him are brought into. >> cedric, how complicated is coordinating and organizing a man hunt like this, when you consider all the agencies and city and state and federal law enforcement working together? the mayor of auburn said moments ago, their entire forces out there tonight? >> there is going to be hundreds of officers and civilian personnel who are going to be on that scene tonight, until this person is apprehended. we practice, rehearse if you will, for dramatic events.

and even though each event is three different, we have an opportunity to take exercises, to communicate with each other. and you also have to remember, there are other incidents that happen. certainly not of this magnitude, your local, state, and federal agency for together. so they know each other. they have worked on cases with each other before. but when you have that many law enforcement agencies together, or you would be surprised that there are very cohesively to get there in order to bring resolve two cases such as this. so i'm not bothered by that. i'm quite sure it's very organized. i'm quite sure everyone's playing their proper provisions from the city, state, and local level. because everyone has a certain amount of expertise, technology they bring into play. and we are all very respectful for each other in that regard.

so i think, as this continues throughout the night, hopefully here very soon, find a result to the situation. >> cedric, please stay close. i want to bring into the conversation rob d'amico, former ember of the fbi's hostage rescue team and founder of 01 consulting. rob, what can't you tell us tonight? >> obviously, this is a traumatic event. and it's chaotic. you talk about police coming into the scene, and right now they are coming in hot, hot, hot. they have to sit up a command post and start looking at how they're going to use each piece of the puzzle, each person, bring them in and health use them. but right now and the middle of the night, they're trying to gather from his vehicle, last seen in lisbon by the boat ramp, did he obtain another vehicle? if he did, and it's going to be tough to figure out if a vehicles missing, not have a witness.

if that's the case, now they have to look at time and distance. health or someone can go in a vehicle. if they don't think he went into a vehicle, they're not going to have to start looking where he can move on land. and it's going to be a lot more dangerous, because everything you are saying about him, his tactics, his weapon skills, if he's on foot, and then you're pursuing him on foot, that gets very dangerous. art remember, when we were looking for eric rudolph in north carolina, he's someone who hits a military training. most of the time, we felt the only way we're going to get out of the air is somebody's gonna get shot -- that's what these police or gonna have to be going for. especially at night when they're moving. so if they think he's on foot, it's gonna be a lot more dangerous. and then they also have to worry about the residents in those areas. is he going to try to -- he's on foot. is he gonna break into a house to gain some tactical advantage or something that he needs? or is he just gonna keep moving? if he's in a vehicle, now

you're gonna have to start looking at a time and distance and then find police departments where you think he's going to come into a vehicle, describe to them. >> based on your experience, do you think is alive right now? >> i do. i do. i think there's probably a high chance of a self inflicted gun wound to him. i just don't know if it's in his -- i think this whole thing, he's been plotting in his head for a long time. i think a lot of these people, they daydream about it and they think about what they're going to do and i think a lot of them understand what their endings going to be, or what they want it to be. do they want it to be a shoot out? is it suicide by cop? or is it, i'm not gonna let them get me, i'm gonna do something and i'm gonna go somewhere and do it to myself. so i think in his, head he

probably knows what the ending is going to be. we don't. so i think, if he gets cornered, he may do that. i think, as long as he's running free, i think in his mind, he's got something planned and he's gonna try to do that. and i think what all those options go down, to give up or get in a shoot out or whatever, he may take his left or he may try to, again, suicide by cop. >> well, he is well familiar in firearms. he was an instructor. he knows the area. he's a local. he went to the university of maine. he studied engineering they. or did it surprise you that he made no effort to discuss themselves? to cover his face? you could see him right out there in the open, in the photos, and after all of this to place. >> no, i'm not. i think, again, he had efficient for this. and he didn't care. and that may be one of those

indicators of what he plans at the and that he indicated he wasn't trying to hide himself from what he did. he might want to be known. so there is all kinds of things that go through their head and he might want to be. unfortunately, some of these imitators, they see other people and they want to be famous for this or they want to know this is something -- and i think it's indicative of how he thinks it's going to end. he probably, again, he understands enough that it's going to come to this kind of event. either he gets caught, gifts, upper goes out in a fight or does someone to himself. so i don't think his identity, when he plotted, is that he wanted to hide. at >> the fact that it's a rural area. it's this light at not. how difficult does this man hunt become? >> if you had the right resources it's actually easier. -- >> what does that mean? >> when you have a helicopter

with thermal imagery, that can look over areas and see heat sources and think you can easily tell if you -- tell the difference between a human and an animal, and you don't have a lot of people out there. but those resources aren't there right now. i'm sure they're looking to get them. there you had some larger police departments, again, when you get in the fbi, i was on the hostage rescue team. many helicopters had thermal imagery. we had snipers in helicopters with thermal imagery that you can detect movement in a rural area. and right now, the leaves are falling down, which is good, because our remember when we look for eric rudolph in the summer in the mountains of north carolina, you couldn't even get thermal imaging through that canopy cover. now that leaves are falling up there, you can get a helicopter up and start looking at a larger area. and no one's moving and overall area and the household is better. but as it comes day and there

was more movement in general, you're going to have to try to control that. >> massachusetts state police are telling people in certain areas to shelter in place. but new hampshire isn't saying anything. what does that tell you? >> i was looking at the map and new hampshire is a bit closer. except that he was moving southeast, down to lisbon. so when you look at that meant roads and you start to get calculating fe is on a highway and going 75 to 80 miles an hour, it may be easier to go down the east coast of maine and get into massachusetts, as opposed to going across the county, the smaller state roads and such to the west, going to new hampshire. but i still think, probably, new hampshire has been alerted and it's looking into how they're going to engage. >> the fact that people in parts of massachusetts are being told to cover in place, does that tell you that maybe

he's close? maybe he could be even be in that state or the just one people off the road? >> i think that's just cautionary. i don't think they know exactly, but i think it's best to be cautionary. it's in the middle of the night. you can tell, it's like a hurricane, tell people to stay off the streets as much as you can so you don't have indifference and other things coming. and so i do think it's cautionary. but there might be some type of indicator that we are not seeing. and they know who he is. they know what his self and embrace. so they can actually start looking for him electronically. if he got into another vehicle. like, my vehicle, if he had stolen my vehicle, i have tracking in it. so i could have gone to the police and said, hey, this is where my vehicle is, and he has it. or if they know he has a cell phone, again, he could have dodged it. but if they could have looked on some of the other crime scenes and so he was, his cell

phone was hitting those towers, and they see it moving still, then they can maybe have some type of elements of venture that is telling them, telling the police he's moving in a certain direction. >> how worried are you about people being safe in their homes right now? many of them have guns. maine is a heavily armed state. it's a very popular hunting. state and people are terrified, locked at home right now. are you worried about them being safe? >> i think they are known for handling themselves up there. so i think there's probably a lot of dads and fathers and people that have weapons, that are kind of sitting ready. and we saw in pennsylvania escape, the escape it was in someone's home and there was a whole thing going on. i think a lot of people are up there, prepared, but you have to be nervous. someone who has done that much

and there are maybe some homes that don't have weapons or whatever he decides to get some counter -- shelter in. but i think there's a lot of people who are sitting, anxiously waiting to see if the here is something. and hopefully again, if they do, if it's not someone else that for some reason is moving. i don't think anyone's moving out there. i think -- >> rob, before we go to break. i asked our last guest cedric alexander the same question. many of the people at home in maine and massachusetts or panicked. they're watching television. they're desperate for more information. what is your advice for them right now? >> i think, watching the news is all you can do. i actually have an app that was kind of new to me when this thing for us kicked off i started looking at. it know some of it's not corroborated. they have people that are

pushing things down, they're hearing on police scanners, but i had his name, i had the vehicle, that license plates. i had a whole bunch of information that i don't think the police would have been able to get out in time. i don't know if they wanted it out, but i think are starting to see technology catch up to what's going on in the world. that people want to be safer and information helps them feel safer, or be safer. so this app, and i was looking at the information that i was getting, had already gone out to 10 million people. and you can do it locally, you can do all kinds of things on it and alerts you to sexual predators. but it was an up to that minute display of things people were hearing, or do, and we're seeing. again, you have to be careful because some of its uncurled -- uncorroborated. -- trust me, we look for white vans for a long time and they

figured out it was false and probably led us on a longer search for them because they were so convinced for some reason it was a white. van so you have to be careful with it. but we've got to start looking at technology to get out. >> but that's sort of minus question. do we want people to go to bees apps filled with unverified information when they're panicked? police i'm sure had information and our, at least, before the press conference. but there is no way they're going to speak to the public. just like there is no way nbc news is going to everything we're hearing until it's verified. and a dangerous for the average citizen to be hopping onto an app to say, hey, what am i hearing out there? anyone could put information. >> exactly. it's like intelligence and all kinds of other things. you have to understand where it's coming from. but i would want information. and i have to kind of know

where it's coming from because i've got a description of this possible sickened vehicle. so if i see that possible sickened vehicle, it could help me. so i think it's got to mature. but i think we've got to nip that using technology. we started doing that and more resigns with technology, fingerprints and biometrics. again, when you look at it, people are like, it's too much information. i don't think it is. i think you could look at it as a mature, it's gotta be a careful person. because we did it to the enemy. we put in false information into twitter and all kinds of other things to throw them off. so we have to be careful with it. but again, i think people are going to start doing this on their own. it's just going to come up, people monitoring the police scanners and such and put information out there. i would rather have more information. it can be dangerous. it's one thing you have to balance. but i think we have to, as i do

and the security world, used technology and people have to understand what that technology is providing so that use it in the right way. >> technology -- when you look at for instance in new york city, remember the bombing and chelsea. the chelsea neighborhood of new york city. i was there that that and got specific information texted to my front that was of relevant to somebody blocks away from where the -- >> the suitcase? >> exactly. and i had information texted to me from being with a several block radius that was very specific, very detailed, continuous. you're gonna hear this, the police are gonna do this. >> what was the source? >> the source was very much unlike these apps. the service was that new york city police department controlling the scene, pushing those messages out. that's something they can do in new york city but they can do it and other communities as well. targeted text messages to your phone, similar to those types of alerts we get. and that is some more official and effective of children.

it people, sometimes i get great from people online, saying, oh, i know this person's name an hour ago. i heard this thing because of pulisic interest. and it does go out. but there have been numerous cases and i know jonathan dates is sitting over here and he and i have talked about this on a number of occasions -- it's not that it's wrong, it just a bit of information that police have at the time. but that doesn't mean that the information they're getting from witnesses and from others is accurate. and so when you look at that and you look at the totality of the information they have to sift through, things change overtime. that's what the words of this network heard me say, prior to us comment on the air in the previous hour, we are aware of that name but we want to confirm that name. >> for everyone involved safety. >> because we have seen on a number of occasions, we are right and have been put out. run images of individuals have been put out. it was the best information law enforcement had at the time but

if i go out there and say, not that this particular person of interest is a person of interest, but stephanie ruhle's -- >> event of its not forever, in the immediate -- >> in the immediate. so i think it's part of the types of things. and i fully appreciate what rob is saying and these technologies exist and they can be a very useful tool, but i think sometimes they can add to a fog of misinformation. or for those of us, jonathan's been doing this a little longer than i have, but we have both been to invest together, investigating for ten years. when we sit here and talk about it, we have systems in place and even then we still have to go back and double-check things and occasionally a big things. so it's definitely a challenge we have to deal with. we talk about some of these applications out there, it can perhaps creates a problem. i think ultimately, we need to look at that is for us from a safe point of verified information. to appoint robert up, if there

was a sophisticated actor involved with the shooting, who want to prevent them from putting up information -- >> exactly. >> we've seen instances, a horrific shooting at a mosque in new zealand. we've seen it with a former tv reporter who shot some of his colleagues in west virginia. what these individual livestream -- information in realtime. what's to say that's real information as well. so it's really difficult information environment. you and i have talked about this on a whole host of separate company previously. so i think the type of thing where as this events go along, we are very careful in what we're seeing about this individual. you had a press conference, that's the information that exists at this point. >> the unverified at could be instructing people to run directly into danger. mr. daines, do you one way? and >> i'll weigh in on what tom and i know and the best information we have from multiple law enforcement sources at this hour is that the person of interest, robert

card, is not in custody at this time. card has paused military experience. card is our. and they believe with an ar-style rifle. there are two shouldn't locations. there are victims sheared with law enforcement and again, this is where things could change the based information as of now is 15 to 20 people deceased and know the total number of injured. about 50 is the number of law enforcement has been briefed and shared. not all 50 are gunshot wound victims but numerous are stampede victims as the teens and young adults in that bowl and ali and others in that neighborhood ran for their lives as this mass shooter, armed with an ar-15 entered and began firing. according to maine state police, who put out a bulletin that was shared with multiple law

enforcement agencies that card, the person of interest, is a trained firearms instructor with military experience. he may have had mental health issues in the past. including hearing voices and threats in the past and that he may have spent a couple of weeks in a mental health facility. his car, according to law enforcement sources who've been briefed, has been located. a white subaru. he is not in it. they believe he fled on foot. where he is at this hour is unknown. he's considered armed and dangerous. and that man hunt with hundreds of local, state, and federal authorities is ongoing across the lewiston, maine area where people have been told to shelter in place and remain indoors. coal 9-1-1 if you see something suspicious out there. and they remain concerned as he is considered armed and external interests.

and those are the facts. that's the best information we have. things are constantly changing. they're updated. and the most absurd in part of all of this is the teenagers. there were teenagers out for a not in a bullet alley, apparently just having a good time viola counts. we just heard one of the local mayor is talking about how many of the surviving teens were taken away to be reunited with loved ones, to be counseled, to give witness descriptions as a teenager. >> but not all of those injured were injured by gunfire. there was somewhat of a stampede. whether it was people live in a bowling alley or leaving the bar and grill, a truly devastating night in a truly close knit, loving community in maine. tom? >> i want to add to what jonathan reported. the individual state of birth as we have it is april 4th, 1983. he has a facebook page which

our colleagues -- are in the process of review. and there is no immediate indication, sometimes you and i have spoken before -- >> manifesto. >> sort of writings, ideology that perhaps could be assigned to -- we haven't seen signs of this. as with the proportion for out here at this if, in law enforcement at the stage of the investigation, and it's in this initial stage of the investigation, doesn't believe that there is an excess to terrorism here. i always get comments. i've just gotten comments on social media. >> stop looking? >> how dear could you report there is no terrorism. imagine being in the polling. elie >> i completely agree with you. that's about the definition of terrorism. >> that will look at from a standpoint of is there an ideology this individual has, the exit out and violence. again, it's early, it's preliminary. there is no sign of. that but of course, they haven't spoken with this individual so we'll have to see how this goes. to jonathan's, point federal agencies are here.

the fbi boston field office commands this. as far as their involvement, the main state police is the primer agency. but they're gonna help. out swapped abilities, technical capabilities as well as technological capabilities. that will all be very helpful. then this issue of the gun, as jonathan pointed out, this person has a mental health history here. >> most likely purchased this gun legally. >> that's gonna be a big question because depending upon what happened with his mental health history, and his -- as frank full glues it was lincoln before, some of maine's laws with that was everything full it up to the litter. that doesn't do anything for the people impacted by the violence that. but it is something worth following up on here. particularly because a person to get some of these red flag, blue flag, yellow flag laws throughout the country as a pain to stop something like this. but more investigations needs to be done. obviously, the focus protests went on this person of interest as police have to strive robert card. >> terrm clarification is

so important, given all that's happening around the world right now. i want to bring into our conversation, before i wrap for the night, retired atf special agent in charge jim kavanaugh. jim, more were learning about this man, his firearms expertise, his background in the military. his mental health issues in the past. what were you thinking about? >> well, just a few things. you know he's a firearms instructor and you've already reported he's a firearms instructor and a military unit he's attached to or in a civilian role. but either way, a firearms instructor is a person who's very, very confident with his shooting. very, very close to his weapon. can easily work, feels comfortable with. it becomes part of. them confident shooters, accurate shooters. and in the case like amassed spray killer, a devastating shooter. so this guy is extremely dangerous with his ability to

shoot accurately at a distance. take on officers and agents who may confront him. his whereabouts is interesting, the discussion your heaven with jonathan and tom. yes, he could be on foot. he could be. but he also could not be. if you're out, you've traveled between a couple of scenes, killing everybody. then you've gotten away. my question is, why did he abandon the car? did it run out of gas? did he crash? did he just not want to be driving a car that was attached to him, that was easily spotted? he could easily get another car. he has a rival. and he could stand on the side of the road. often thing people, people will be in danger in their homes but filled b and more danger if they're out on the highway. and there is still people out of the highway because not every single -- despite what we say about lockdowns. people work night, late shift. some people never get to work

and some people don't care and there are still people out. and all he'll have to do is get on the side of the road and shoot the car passing by and jump in it. if he pushes the victim to the side, nobody is going to even know he did it. he can drive away. and he can be hours away. so he could have run into the woods, it's possible. he could have run into someone's house. it feels, he could be. did it's a 50/50 chance he commits suicide. but it's a 50/50 chance right now at this stage because he seems like he's more interested in getting a body count high. he's travel, in shooting skills, all this ammo he's apparently carrying. by what is already shot, and what we can see in his pants, it looks like he's loaded down. ammunitions very heavy, it fills your pockets. and that's the way he looks. he might have even had a backpack, it was hard to tell and the photo.

i kind of thought he looked like he might have had a machete under his left arm. looking at the photographs. and he was around cylindrical object and his right front blue pocket. that could be a can of coca-cola or it could be a pipe bomb. with a guy like this, you just don't know. but it definitely has a lot of stuff with him for his mission of mass murder. >> so does that lead you to believe him of a looking for a third location? >> i think that would be my biggest fear as a commander on this. i would be worried that his looking for another gathering of humans are people that he hates or he's just going to try to take on the police. i mean, we could hear in the hours or even the morning hours of a shooting somewhere. and multiple people shot somewhere. and he could have just found another crowd and he wants to continue the bloodlust.

so that's one of the, you know, that's the fear i have. he's not coat before he does it again. because he seems very determined when he's doing these multiple locations, carrying all this ammunition. not hiding his identity. he clearly knows he's in this homicidal rage, where he is right now. and is that going to continue? so i think that's the concern i would have. and i wouldn't be so sure he is right there. he could have moved out of that area, if he moved out fast and not have had the perimeter. >> jim cavanaugh, tanker summit. cedric, rob, thank you. jonathan, tom, thank you. i will be signing off. for anyone watching right now in maine, massachusetts, shelter in place. we are sending you wish us of safety tonight. our thoughts are with you. for everyone in all burn, lewiston, the entire state of maine. we're thinking of these communities. our breaking news coverage

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