welcome every everyone at the top of the hour. i'm alex witt here as we're continuing our live breaking news coverage. it is an extraordinary story. we're reporting the very latest for you at this hour. a manhunt is under way right now for a suspected mass killer in

lewisten, maine. police say the suspect is armed and dangerous, and a shelter in place order has been issued for the entire county that is right there in maine. police have identified 40-year-old robert card for a person of interest, and officials have released this picture of mr. card. they also released these pictures of the attack. the shooter opened fire just before 7:00 p.m. eastern time at a bowling alley and a bar grill restaurant both in lewiston. law enforcement sources 15 to 20 people are reported dead. but here's what we heard at news briefings held in maine just a short time ago. >> this is general caution to the public approximately 6:56 this evening a couple of shooting incidents occurred here in with multiple casualties in the city of lewiston.

and police are currently searching for a robert r. card. he's considered a person of interest. and that's what we'll label him at moving forward until that changes. if people see him, they should not approach card or make contact with him in any way. the shelter in place order that currently stands iplewiston remains. a vehicle which was a vehicle of interest in this incident was located in lisbon, and we're now also asking residents in lisbon to shelter in place. mr. card who we're speaking about right now is a person of interest and person of interest only. i'm not listing him as a suspect at this point. and we're not prepared today go into his background or anything else we may be aware of. >> in addition to those killed police say at least 50 people were injured in the shooting in the resulting rush to escape the gunfire. let's go to sam brock. sam, what do you know about this

person of interest, and where was he last seen? >> reporter: alex, good to be with you. and important to note we're only 7 hours into this intensive manhunt. where i'm standing in lewiston, it's quiet. that's one vehicle in the road there. they're blocking access right now to spare time, which is the bowling alley you just referenced, the site of at least two shootings that took place at 7:00. as we're awaiting more answers tuesday your questions about where he was last seen authorities believe his vehicle was located about 15, 20 minutes due east of where i'm standing and that was in lisbon. and it's a town about 37,000 people. it's the second most largest most populous city in all of maine. this is a part of the country where there's not a huge

population center so to speak. one, everywhere you go, people are glued to their television screens right now. i came from brunswick, durham area about 30, 35-minute drive away from here. and i was talking to folks at a local hotel and asked them what kind of alerts did you get, and one did receive an alert from her phone, another did not but said they had calls from friends and family. they said they knew this guy, but she knew neighbors on the street where he lived in durham, again only about 30 minutes or so from where i'm standing right now, and i asked were they fearful? how did they feel hearing this information of someone who according to police, according to investigators shot and killed as you said between 15 and 20 people and injured another 50, although it's not clear all those injuries were related today gunfire. but in totality dozens upon dozens of people killed and injured in two different locations and what do they think of this. and she said they were all aware

of the fact there were mental health issues with card. i would site the maine information and analysis center, they are saying right now he's someone who had experience in the reserve, 40 years old, considered armed and dangerous, was a firearms instructor. and certainly we've all seen the images of him at this point of him carrying a semiautomatic rifle of what appears to be preparing to shoot people without any obscuring of his face, clear as day as to who this person can be. specifically one woman said she has a grandson 9 years old he said something recently that alarmed their family and they've bip trying to get a mental health care physician for him, and it's been months that they've been unable to do so. and they say there's potential ely no access to those in need. according to that database he also reported hearing voices and

threatened to shoot-up or voiced threats of shooting up a national guard base. so this is all information coming visa vi a database for law enforcement identifying this individual. that's who they're looking for, and it's officials from local, state, and federal sources who are out here. i will leave you with this. i did think it was kind of strange coming out here, it's so dark i did not see law enforcement. that may be the areas where i was. perhaps they thought he's long left lewiston, but you're just going through these roads where it's miles upon miles of wooded emptiness. another one of the challenges of how sparse it is. you can go a mile or two without seeing a house. i did see a handful of law enforcement officers cars from all over the state at various places, gas station obviously over my shoulder now at spare time. but it wasn't necessarily the

drag net style saturation one might have expected, but they might have intelligence we do not have as to where he might be. as you said many people right now in communities all over the state are sheltering in place unsure of what the next update will be. >> you've given me incredible insights there. thank you for that, sam. let me ask you about something. granted, it is dark and you've driven half an hour, 35 minutes or so to get to this location. when you talk about it being wooded, we are past the prime fall foliage peak in that area. i know trying to surveil someone in those conditions with the leafy overhead can be muddled up by that. did the trees you were able to see in the area, did they look more sparse which will then give an advantage to law enforcement as they search for him? >> reporter: that's a great question. it didn't look thick. i mean the trees did not look

thick, whether or not there's been a lot of lost foliage at this point hard to say in the dark, alex. they weren't there either. if you're talking about trying to use thermal image to see what's out there right now, would that pose a threat, i couldn't say definitively. but it didn't seem to be so dense it would be difficult to necessarily spot someone hiding in that brush if in fact that's where card is right now verse ths many different paths or potential routes he could have chosen. hoping right now law enforcement has him tracked somewhere close. >> you make a good point. we don't know where he's on foot, whether he's acquired another car somehow or another and could be miles away. and that's part of what's presenting such a problem. we should note as you have again that there are local, state, and federal authorities all there. have you heard anything like the sound of helicopters overhead, seen any spotlights looking in the area for somebody?

>> reporter: no, i have not. i have not heard helicopters. and again just for full disclosure here i've been on the ground for about an hour and a half, two hours now. again, surprised to see the lack of police cars zipping down streets as you would be accustomed to seeing in the thick of a manhunt, which leads me to believe it may not be directly in this area where i am right now, but they're concentrating their efforts. certain degrees of caution and people bunker down where they are, not venturing out. if there's one other thing that stands out, it's the lack of cars on the roads. perhaps those in the communities are listening to words of advice and not traveling outright now and allowing law enforcement to do its job. >> shelter in place has definitely been the edict put out there for everybody, all the residents and businesses in the area. there is an advantage it is 2:00 on the east coast, 2:00 in the morning so people are hopefully safely inside their homes. sam, stick around with me for a

second. right now i have bob demico joining me. give me your assessment, rob, of what you think is going on from the description we just heard there from my colleague, the fact there aren't a bunch of cars all in one area circling around and doing what he described as kind of a drag net. what does that tell crow? >> one, it's not a heavily populated with law enforcement area, and it's the middle of the night. so they're having units and police get up and start responding. they're probably going into their local law enforcement centers and departments and then getting dispatched over to where they think they need them. i think right now they're trying to figure out is he on foot or did he get a vehicle? i'd heard earlier through an app that they suspected he was in a different vehicle, they had a dripgz of the vehicle, but you have to base that on whether it was on witnesses, was it on a

vehicle was missing and they couldn't figure out where it was. two witnesses could see the same thing. so i think they're really trying to determine is he in a vehicle because now you have time and distance on those roads doing 60, 70 miles an hour, making his way anywhere else? if he's on foot, it changes everything. and it gets a lot more dangerous if law enforcement are pursuing him on foot because of his tactics and his weapons, and he has a weapon that has optics on it, he could actually engage them from a further distance and from the dark. >> yeah. >> so determining that's a priority. your colleagues back where the crime scene was, i think they safely think he's out of there, and that's why you're not seeing police run up and down the road. they're probably right now in that town just securing the crime scenes so they can wait

until these come in and process those because you can keep those and hold them. you don't have to process them right away. the priority is capturing him and eliminating the threat to others. >> 100%. >> and also if he did take a vehicle, if he stole my vehicle, i have tracking in it. so finding the owner of a vehicle if he took one asking if you have tracking in it, so lots of thing nowadays you can use to follow a vehicle. even xm radio and other things if they're in a vehicle he has they can start looking with cellular data and other things. >> rob, to the things sam brock was reporting and it does seem rather dark and sparsely populated right now, part of the charm like the southwestern part of maine is that it's country roads, right? but the fact this suspect, person of interest, but i think very soon will be named a suspect given that we have pictures, the fact is when

you're on these small roads, you're in the dark. if he is in a car, how much does that give him the advantage over law enforcement given the geography, the space we're talking about, and the lack of man power from small towns trying to converge together? >> yeah, it's really tough. i would think it -- i would think knowing where he last was seen if he has a vehicle, start looking at what are the main thoroughfares to get through that. they obviously can't put police roadblocks on all the roads. when your looking at the pennsylvania escapee, they were trying to create a perimeter because it was a smaller distance, tighter. up here it's going to be vastly harder to get a perimeter. so i guarantee they're going to have certain areas they're going to be stopping vehicles. and that's why it's good people

are paying attention to the shelter in place, plus it's 2:00 in the morning. that vehicles that have roadblocks and any vehicle that comes up, they're going to stop. again if he sees as roadblock and he's driving up there, what's he going to do? is he going to engage them, ram them, get out and start shooting? i'm sure they're prepared for that, but that's another thing going to come up. >> for sure. >> the sparseness up there is going to make it difficult. i hunted eric rudolph three times, and mentioned the big thing of it being fall, it was a lot easier in the fall. and you can use technology even if there's some leaves on the trees, thermal scopes from helicopters can burn through that and see movement, especially if you don't have others moving around, it really helps you. >> rob, stay with me. i'm welcoming to the conversation right now chris proun, the president of brady.

i'd love your initial reaction to this latest mass shooting in this country. >> it's horrific. i'm actually in san diego county right now. i was with a lot of folks who care passionately about this issue, and the news came out of this mass shooting in maine, and it's like so many other examples of this. a lot of questions you're asking right now about how did the shooter get this gun? what about an extremist protection law that could have made a difference here? and analysis of maine law, i would say it's really lacking in a number of important measures that other states have adopted that maybe could have made a difference here. so agony from my side we don't have standards across this country to make it harder for people to access guns who shouldn't have them, and more connections for family members and law enforcement to remove firearms from individuals who

are clearly at-risk of harm to themselves or others. very frustrated that mainers don't have that capability under law to do that while at all and should. >> yeah. it was reported, sam brock reported that there were people in his neighborhood who really tried to get him some mental health access and weren't able to do so. but i know that maine is also a state that does have a number of private firearms in homes. it's a hunting state in the light. does that give you, or should that give people a false sense of security? i'm curious about people who buy guns always for a sense of self-protection and the like. how often do you find things go awry when that is the intended erp purpose for guns in your home? >> we have about 40,000 gun

deaths every single year. we have about 450 million guns, more guns than people in this country. if you look at the kind of gun deaths happening in that 40,000, a vast majority of them are from guns in the home that are not safely stored. eight kids a day are killed or injured with guns in the home not safely stored. that's 65% of our gun deaths are suicide, and that's largely with unsecured access of guns in the home. we don't know the details right now, but it's absolutely critical every single person who cloozs to have a firearm in their home and family fire in their home end this kind of carnage by ensuring those guns are safely stored. that means unload, locked, ammo separate. >> the fact there are reports of a person of interest, robert

card, he was trained by the military. if that is indeed the case, kris, what are your concerns he is still at large? >> grave concerns. obviously it is imperative hearing from so many people in and around maine, and you've reported on this in complete lock down. it's terrified enough to know this has happened in our community, but then to know this individual is at large who's been trained in the military is obviously very, very terrifying. and the impact of this is not just on the immediate community but folks nearby who are also extremely fearful. and there are things in other states that have been adopted. >> absolutely.

i thank you for joining us from san diego. i know you're always trying to get your message out to people with whom you've been associating there. thank you for joining us right now. very quickly i want to go to sam brock because i know sam has to take off again. so he's got to do some reporting and dig around for what he can find. give us a sense, sam, of the community there. i know you just got there an hour or so ago, but it does have a very small town vibe to it, does it not? >> super small town vibe, alex. i would say that was the first question i asked them with the people i interacted, it was apparent there was not a ton of people to communicate information and i was wondering how they found about these crimes. and all of them discussed the fact lewiston is 37, 40,000 people, the second largest city in maine after only portland. a few tens of thousands of people tells you everything you need to know.

it does feel like a small community pretty much everywhere you go. driving around these downtowns, they last a couple of blocks, and that's it. and there's large miles of swaths of land where there's virtually no business or residential activity. and, again, i'm standing not far away, maybe a quarter of a mile from spare time recreation, the bowling alley where reportedly there were more than 100 people inside. about five minutes ago while you were talking with kris, five to six police cars, all unmarked cars, came through here, checked in at the checkpoint and kept ongoing. what that has to do strategically and what information they were able to collect in the last few hours, not clear. when you look at the profile of mass shooters it's fairly clear whether it's uvalde or choose your shooting, there's oftentimes a link to mental health issues or red flags that

have been raised over a period of years and people don't necessarily intervene and it leads to this. or the system is not prepared to help people who clearly do need the assistance. i did get a phone call from people who lived on card street saying they were aware he had mental health issues and there could have been behavior linked to said mental health issues, and this is thirdhand by someone who knows the neighbors. they weren't necessarily threatened by his presence or something like this could happen, but there was perhaps not enough intervention. certainly the question has to be asked given everything going on in the world right now if there were signs being related to terrorism or biases towards certain populations or religions. there was none of that according to investigatorsch it appears this has to do with someone who has problems and ended up

shooting 15 to 20 people and injuring some 50 plus others. we're trying to find robert card, someone who according to a database from law enforcement reported hearing voices and he'd thought about shooting up a national guard base. this is a person with military experience as well, according to the same database who according to authorities appears to have -- this is a person of interest but maybe the one who committed these crimes and at the center right now. >> speaking of the center, just to add a bit further heart break than that that exists, we have the spare time recreation center, and it was a bowling alley. you may not be aware it was a youth night, which is pretty tragic to think about the ages associated with this. sam brock, i appreciate your time with us. one more question to rob d'

mico, given you've been on an fbi hostage rescue team, i'm certain you've dealt with shooters and people who are holding people hostage that are dealing with mental health issues. when you see the lack of ability to address that out in the community in advance of these type of heinous acts, what goes through your mind? what needs to change? >> i think the mental health in the u.s. is lacking, and i think there are resources and people don't know what to do, and everyone kind of treats it to a point where they don't want to be the ones to take the weapon or call. when this call came in, what were the options?

i don't know when you look at different laws in each state, what are the options they would do? they didn't have to look back and say was there something we could have done legally that allowed us to do something, and then if not, then that's up to obviously the state legislative branch to look at that. but it is tough. i mean and especially when you're looking at someone and he's making threats, this is one of those ones everyone said, hey, we saw it coming, mental health issues, making overt threats, having the training, and having the weapons. and i think from what i read earlier, as soon as they knew who he was and they contacted the family members, i think one of the family members told them go check out this other place, too, probably because he'd said something about that. it's one of the ones they hadn't been to, and they were like, hey, you may want to look at this one. so there were definitely known things out there and it's just a

shame we didn't have anything to help. >> he recently reported hearing voices and threats to shoot-up the national guard base in maine. that may be what you're referring to. thank you so much for starting us off this one. we're going to hear from a former nypd officer on the next steps investigators will be making in this case. that's next for you here on msnbc. n this case. that's next for you here on msnbc. that i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. if you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away. serious or life-threatening lactic acid buildup

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approaching the bottom of the hour as we go back to our breaking news from lewiston, maine, a deadly shooting with police still searching for a suspect. officials say between 15 and 20 people are dead. they have identified 40-year-old robert card as a person of interest. and in the last hour we heard from the mayor of auburn, maine, that is a neighboring community to lewiston, where a reunification center has been setup. here's some of what he told reporters. >> it's unbelievable. we have our entire force-out here right now plus lewiston county state, everybody's here. it's one thing about maine. if you're not from maine, you won't understand it. but when someone's in need, everybody comes. and everybody's come to this. i've got volunteer and rescue in the back in case people need it. this is an all hands on deck situation. you can train for this but you can never be completely prepared. i've been talking to a lot of

officers tonight, and we all should be proud of them. text messages out from folks, and everybody knows about this, and it obviously made national news. at this point we're going to really focus inside our community, we're going to heal our community. we're going to persevere and get through this. it's no time not to. it will take a while. something like this doesn't just get solved overnight, and no one can expect it to, but we've had a really strong community. we've overcome a lot, and we'll overcome this. >> joining me now is the director for the center of the study of hate and extremism at california state university. and our relationship goes back many, many years. so welcome. give us your first thoughts as you hear from community leaders on the response effort. >> this harkens back to me over 30 years ago when i was on your

air with someone you liked and he liked very much, brian williams. what is so interesting here is that when the previous reports came in and said, oh, look, it's not like we have these drag nets, i think what you see happening are more personnel and assets being deployed. this fellow if he's in a vehicle, there will be different ways to geolocate him. and that's one of the things they're going to be looking at, looking at things that are relative to him, a vehicle he might have stolen. does he have electronic assets that would ping? i don't want to go into too much detail, but there's also once you get on certain roads, the ability of cameras to locate vehicles. but i think right now it's more of a down time.

and what's happening is folks are -- are not -- what i mean is i don't think he's going to go out and doing a mass killing while everyone's sheltered in place, and it's quite late. so i think for now he is looking to escape or hide. and i think the reason you're seeing the law enforcement officers clustered a bit is they're clustering in places where that person either is most likely to be or exiting from, and you don't want to just have one or two officers when someone's armed to the teeth with that kind of weapon. >> yeah, that totally makes sense. let me ask you something as i think about what's playing outright now. if indeed robert card has stolen a car, it probably happened after these alarms went out and to advice from local law enforcement was shelter in place. it's nighttime. it's becoming dark or has already gone dark. you know, if you're inside, you

might not notice if somebody has stolen your car. so let's -- i've heard no reports, and i presume that you haven't seen them as well of a report of a stolen car in the area, which means that gives him quite an advantage potentially, right? >> well, you know, we had a former agent talk about eric robert rudolf. in fact, that was one of the first times i was on your air, and he -- he was caught in 2003. although the weather down south is a little different, look, i think he is right now more in escape mode and/or resting mode. but that might not last long. that might last an hour or two. >> i'm going to question that because look at the picture we see there to the rest of our screen, everybody. he does not have camo -- camouflage gear. he does not have a flack-jacket.

he does not have some sort of bulletproof vest. he looks normally dressed, and yet look at what he's carrying an ak-style rifle there, automatic weapon. do you think he's just looking to escape? i mean this is somebody who when i first saw him i thought do you want to do suicide by cop? >> he very well might. and you can see as my friend jim kavanaugh, great legendary atf supervisor, it does look like he has rounds, magazines, as jim said it could be a soda can, could be something else. he might have a jacket in the vehicle as he went from place to place and throw it in the back. the bottom line is while he's out, he is dangerous. and i think it makes sense how

the command center is setup. you're going to have multiple agencies and people who bring different skills to this, hostage negotiators, people who are sharp shooters, other types of individuals, but they have to be on the same communication mode, and they also have to be under some kind of shared joint command because this is going to extend across the distance. even the fellow in pennsylvania. like in 2015 the person who escaped from a new york correctional facility, they were found to have stayed in bungalows. o there are a lot of areas and particularly now it's only in the low 50s. it's going to get colder later in the week, but right now it's in the low 50s. he might have a jacket, he might be laying in place somewhere. good you're making a good point because the fact is we're talking about the state of

maine. again, the southwestern part of maine is where it all went down, but neighboring there new hampshire, you have massachusetts right there to the south, so there are a lot of different law enforcement communities involved in this. we are going to check back in with our other reporters in maine as investigators search for a person of interest in this deadly mass shooting. rch for a person of interest in this deadly mass shooting

we are following the breaking news of a manhunt under

way right now in maine for a suspected mass killer. police say the suspect is armed and dangerous, and a shelter in place order has been issued for the city of lewiston and also another county in maine. police have identified 40-year-old robert card as a person of interest in the shooting. police released this picture of card today, widely distributed. they've also released these pictures of the attack, and the shooter opened fire just before 7:00 p.m. eastern at a bowling alley and a bar grill restaurant in lewiston. police sources say 15 to 20 people are dead, and they add at least 50 people have been injured in the shooting and resulting rush to escape the gunfire. let's go now to my colleague emma barnett on the ground for us in lewiston, maine. is there any update on the

person of interest? or do they remain focused on the local community as they hunt for him? >> reporter: alex, there are no updates on that as of this moment. what i can tell you about what's happening behind me. there's one police car there. there used today be two police cars. i tried to speak to the officer. they weren't able to comment at this moment. at some point about 20 minutes a go a series of police cars drove that way. the reason they're driving that way is the bowling alley where this horrific shooting happened is right there. and it has been eerily quiet in this town, as you mention there's a shelter in place. and i drove here from new hampshire, and as you're driving up, it just quieter and quieter. as you got closer to lewiston, some of the streets were block off, about a mile and a half

from hospitals. i sue some reporting on nbc how they have guards out there. it's creepy quiet right now. something i want to stress is as you said there's 15 to 20 people who have been killed, and you can't even imagine the heart break this town is experiencing because oats a town of about 37,000 people. it's a small, small town. i heard earlier on msnbc someone talking about how in this town everyone is going to know someone, and that is horrific. i want to play some sound we got. it's a woman named julie waiting to hear the status of her family, they were at the bar, the second location the shooter went to. take a listen. >> my ex-husband and my son were playing pool. and next thing i know i saw on facebook there was a shooting where they were playing, and then nobody would tell us

anything. and my wife, his friends all here waiting and we've heard nothing. they won't tell us if he's alive, if he's in critical condition. they won't tell us anything. just pray for the families. pray for these victims. god, things have got to change. we have to start doing better. >> reporter: it is just absolutely horrific to hear julie's story and her plea. and i have no doubt as the sun continues to rise or starts to rise here in maine, we're going to hear a lot more stories like that. there is a reunification center at auburn middle school, so there will be a lot of families just patiently waiting there with their fingers crossed to get the status of their loved ones. >> emma in that sound bar we played from julie, she talked about the central maine medical center, and it's the hospital

that received the bulk of those injured. what was the scene like as you were passing that hospital? >> reporter: that hospital the central maine medical center is about half a mile up the road just to my left, and the scene was -- it honestly wasn't that chaotic at the time i was driving in. i was driving in around about 12:30. remember the shooting at the bowling alley happened around 6:30 p.m. this was 12:30 in the morning. there were some people crossing the street, seemed to be coming out of the hospital, but it was not chaotic at that time. >> okay. let me just ask you one final thing, and that is you know you were being dispatched to follow the story when you made the two-hour drive to get to lewiston. what was that like for you knowing what was lying ahead and you describe a somewhat eerie environment driving through the dark in your car in empty roads. i mean, it's got to be hard

anticipating what you're going to come across when you get to your destination. >> reporter: alex, this is my first time covering breaking news like this, and it was just absolutely horrific. and there has been so much tragedy and heart break and darkness in the world that when i was driving to lewiston, i just couldn't even believe it. it is honestly overwhelming just the amount of death that we have been reporting on this news cycle. >> well, i'm sorry you're going to have to be broken into breaking news by covering this story. i know you're en route for the political campaigns, but i thank you for being with you are. in the meantime what officials told us about robert card, the person of interest, that's ahead on msnbc. card, the person of interest, that's ahead on msnbc since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got

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. we're back with more on this breaking news out of maine for you. the search still on for a suspect in a shooting at bowling alley and bar and grill in lewiston, maine. officials say 15 to 20 people have been killed. rob, question to you on this because we're not hearing a lot of concrete information from law enforcement. what does that tell you about the nature of the manhunt and the investigation right now? is it that they do not know much, or is this the kind of thing they keep things and play things close to the vest? >> i think it's a little bit of a combination of both.

i think they're just overwhelmed. they have two huge crime scenes, probably a third, and they're just looking for whatever they can find to get his location. i think they're just so overwhelmed. i still don't even know if they know who's actually going to be in charge, if it's going to be state police. it was in a town and then slipped out to the county. by now it could be involving state police, and they have more assets. so i think by morning, by 7:00, 8:00, 9:00 in the morning you're going to have a whole bunch more resources. they're going to have a command center. whatever leads that they have, they're going to start putting resources to it. so i think they're just overwhelmed, and i think people are coming in trying to get the information that they know and then get them to where they can do the most good. so i think they're just overwhelmed right now. >> yeah, no, it's understandable. under the cloak of night for this person of interest slash

likely presumable suspect, how much does this give him an advantage to getting away? the fact that maybe they don't have everybody on scene that they want. it is night. it is a densely forested, wooded area. you know, he could be miles away by the time dawn breaks. >> absolutely, he could. and they don't have the resources they need right now. tomorrow night if he is still out there will be a different story because you're going to have the federal and state police bringing everything to bear that they have, so you're going to have the helicopters. you're going to have the thermal imagery, dogs and all these other things. right now they don't have them. but, you know, a perimeter in any situation i think is a false sense of -- it's like living in a gated community thinking no one's going to get in.

you saw in pennsylvania when they really had a smaller area, and they tried to put police officers within line eyesight that they had a perimeter, and then they found tunnels that went through -- >> that is an interesting point and i was covering that case and you make that point the fact it was a densely wooded area, it was very easy, they thought they were close, and yet he did slip through fingers until they actually did catch him. we're going to have a few more questions for you in just a few minutes. what we know about the person of interest in this case and why it's so concerning to law enforcement after a break. y it's so concerning to law enforcement after a break.

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out of nowhere he came in and there was a loud pop. i was bowling so i had my back turn today the door. and as soon as