of the three lawyers and compel their testimony in the january 6th prosecution, and that has some real complications, perhaps, but it's certainly a possibility. one thing is clear here, there's certainly momentum in fani willis' court and that will trickle down to jack smith. >> all really interesting. professor murray, good to see you. it's a long week, not friday yet, but this was quite a development coming out of jack smith's case, so we wanted to get you on. thanks for joining me. >> thank you. and thanks to everyone at home for spending time with us here on "the beat" with ari melber on msnbc. we will continue to cover everything that is happening. these are, as you have noticed, pretty serious times, but we will take you through it as best we can every night here. my time is up, of course. that means it's "the reidout" with joy reid up next.

tonight on "the reidout" -- >> this is a dark time in america. we have a lot of problems. and we're really, really hopeful and prayerful. prayer is appropriate in a time like this. that the evil can end and the senseless violence can stop. >> prayers but no actual plan from the new house speaker. following yet another mass slaughter of human beings. this time, in lewiston, maine. tonight, we're learning more about the far right extreme views of speaker mike johnson, among other things he's an election denier and wants to ban abortion nationwide. and that's really bad for republicans heading into the next election. plus, special counsel jack smith has had enough of trump's big mouth. but will a judge agree to smith's request to reimpose a gag order on criminal defendant trump? but we begin tonight with yet another devastating mass

killing in america. at 6:56 last night, just before we went on the air, police responded to a report of an active shooter at the sparetime recreation bowling alley in lewiston, maine. wednesday night happens to be youth bowling night. at 7:08 p.m., roughly ten minutes later, police responded to another report of an active shooter, this time at shu menges bar and grill. 18 innocent people were dead and 13 wounded. she added this. >> lewiston is where i worked for years, where i met and married my husband and where our girls went to school. i love this place, just as i love our whole state, with my entire heart. this city did not deserve this terrible assault on its citizens, on its peace of mind, on its sense of security.

no city does. no state, no people. this attack strikes at the very heart of who we are. >> state police say seven people died at the bowling alley. six males and one female. eight people died at the bar. seven males inside the bar and one outside. last night, leroy walker was anxiously waiting for news about his son joey. the bar manager at schemengees. this morning, he learned joey did not make it. he told nbc's lester holt what state police told joey's wife. >> joey walker was shot to death. shot to death, but then he went in to telling her that he died as a hero because he picked up a butcher knife from somewhere, you know, he has all that stuff near the bar anyway. and he tried to go at the gunman to stop him from shooting anybody else. the gunman shot him twice

through this. >> did it change your pain at all, knowing that? >> it made it worse. yeah, it made it worse. >> survivors described a horrifying scene of chaos and confusion. >> we're inside, and just bowling. out of nowhere, he came in. there was a loud pop. thought it was a balloon. i had my back turned to the door. as soon as i turned and saw it was not a balloon, he was holding a weapon, i just booked it down the lane and slid basically into where the pins are and climbed up the machine and was on top of the machines for about ten minutes until the cops got there. >> frustrated. worried. we know a close friend has passed. >> at this hour, a massive multi-state manhunt on land and water is under way for the suspect. u.s. army reservist robert card, who was wanted for murder.

schools, doctor's offices and grocery stores closed, and people stayed behind locked doors as far away as 50 miles from the shooting scene. card is considered armed and dangerous and should not be approached, according to two senior law enforcement officials. the assault rifle, the assault style rifle weapon he used was punchlsed legally this year. nbc news has learned card was sent by his military unit commanders for psychiatric treatment this summer after they became concerned about his claims that he was hearing voices, and for threats he made to the base. card spent about two weeks undergoing inpatient psychiatric treatment and was released. it's not clear what further action was taken. this was first reported by "the washington post." the associated press spoke to a u.s. official on condition of anonymity who said that card was an army reservist who had been taken by police for an evaluation after military officials became concerned that he was acting erratically in

mid-july. the official said military commanders became concerned about card's safety and asked for the police to be called. wednesday's shooting was the country's 36th mass killing this year, according to a database maintained by the associated press and usa today, in partnership with northeastern university. until last night, maine was designated by the fbi as the safest state in america. president biden who has been in touch with state and local officials, mourned the victims and urged republican lawmakers to fulfill their duty to protect the american people by passing a bill banning assault weapons and high capacity magazines. and he urged them to enact gun safety measures. one of maine's most famous voices, novelist stephen king, tweeded about those very republicans, writing, quote, the shootings occurred les than 15 miles from where i live. i went to high school in lisbon. it's the rapidfire killing machines, people.

this is madness in the name of freedom. stop electing apologists for murder. unquote. let's bring in nbc news correspondent george solis in lewiston, maine, where a news conference wrapped up a short time ago. what did we learn in the news conference? >> reporter: basically a lot of the sentiment from elected leaders at this is such a dark day in maine's history. in almost one day, they nearly met the number of homicides this entire state had last year, which was 29. the number of casualties here really unfathomable. behind me, there is a law enforcement presence at the hospital. the juxtaposition of a hospital that is receiving care and long guns. in the last hour, we learned investigators are combing through robert card's life. authorities are also saying they found a note inside of his home and what that means, they're

still trying to decipher. all of this, of course, trying to play a bigger part in what led to the shooting. a question, of course, on the minds of money in not just this community but the surrounding communities here, which tonight remain on lock down as a result of this extensive manhunt. local, state, and federal partners, as you know, here combing every nook and cranny, if you will, to try and find where this suspect may have gone, if he is even still here or even alive. we talk so often not just about the shooter in these cases but the families, the ones that are reeling, the ones that have lost. as you heard in lester's interview, that's just one story of many. today, i spoke with a relative of a family who lost their patriarch, their father, and his son, who died in that bowling alley. we heard stories of people hiding behind bowling pins in that scene. and it's so hard to fathom what these people experienced. they were there for this family

night at the bowling alley, and then the shooting took place. we also talked to a mother today who was carrying a gun around for protection because she feels that she has to have that gun to make sure she can protect her kids should the suspect appear, joy. >> nbc's george solis, thank you very much. let me bring in senator chris murphy of connecticut. senator, unfortunately, usually when you and i get a chance to talk, it's on an occasion like this. i want to let you react to just some of the details here. people having to hide behind bowling pins. joey's father, who is a manager there, saying that he did try to help. he stepped in, he had a butcher knife. obviously, that is nothing compared to an assault rifle. just your reaction to this happening again. >> none of this is inevitable, joy. none of this is bad luck. this is a choice that we make in this country to live like this.

the entirety of lewiston is locked down tonight. everybody in that community is trembling with fear, but that reality plays out every day for kids who live in dangerous neighborhoods, kids who fear for their life every morning and afternoon when they walk to and from school. every child in this country now has to go through mass shooter drills. this is literally corrupting the soul of america. and for what? for what? in my state, we don't allowia to buy these semiautomatic assault weapons and i don't hear a lot of complaints from people in my state who want to hunt or shoot for support or protect their home. it's time for the country to wake up to it's a choice we make as leaders and voters to accept this reality. if we ban these assault weapons, if we had stricter universal background checks we just wouldn't have to live with this epidemic of almost daily mass slaughter in this nation. so i'm furious. every single day, but particularly on days like this

when another community is going through what my community of sandy hook and thousands of others have had to go through across the country. >> everyone's thought in their minds that sandy hook would be it because we're talking about little kids and maybe somebody would do something. i will note there are 21 states that have extended background states that go beyond the federal requirements. maine is not one of them. in fact, maine has tried to do some, you know, cnges in terms of its gun laws but they don't allow guns in k-12 schools. they doot have a standard your ground law. they do have secure storage, but they don't havehings like background checks, red fla laws, high capacity magazine proh prohibitions. that kind of thing. i want to have you react to another thing that my producer has handed me from military.com. this seems related. there was a bill that receny passed that gives veterans who are deemed mentally incompetent easier access to guns. senate approval seems pending.

the senate approved a measure that would ease some veterans' access to guns brushing aside objections from most democrats and the department of affairs. this was a person who had been deemed to have some mental issues. what do you make of the fact some of your colleagues want to make it easier for those folks to get guns? >> this amendment you're talking about passed yesterday afternoon, just hours before this shooting. and what this proposal does that is now baked in to the senate appropriations bill that is speeding towards passage would allow veterans who have been deemed mentally incompetent, one-third of them who are schizophrenic, to regain their gun rights. people who are actively suicidal, who have massive serious cases of ptds, would be able to get their weapons back. for three decades, we have said veterans who have been deemed mentally incompetent shouldn't get weapons. i thought we agreed that if

you're mentally ill, you shouldn't get your hands on a gun. maybe now, after this individual, where a mentally ill individual who was a member of the military carried out this crime, maybe we will think twice about passing into law the amendment that we passed yesterday. it is just amazing to me that this country and many of my colleagues are still so cavalier about allowing people with serious mental illness, in this case, mentally incompetent veterans, to have guns. it just feels like this country wants us to be more careful about it and congress needs to get with the program. >> i will note that the member of congress who represents this area where the shooting took place has now said apologized to his constituents for not supporting stronger gun legislation. i think we might have the sound of that. let's take a listen. >> i have opposed efforts to ban deadly weapons of war like the assault rifle used to carry out this crime. the time has now come for me to take responsibility for this failure. which is why i now call on the

united states congress to ban assault rifles like the one used by the sick perpetrator of this mass killing in my hometown of lewiston, maine. for the good of my community, i will work with any colleague to get this done in the time that i have left in congress. >> your reaction. >> well, i applaud representative golden for changing his mind based upon the facts that he has seen. for those of us who have lived through these experiences, who have spent time with the victims of these mass shootings, especially mass shootings involving assault weapons. it's just common sense to get rid of these weapons. it's hard to describe what a body looks like when it's been torn apart by bullets coming out of an assault weapon, especially if it's a child's body. but you know what, i wish it didn't take a mass shooting in a congressman's district for them to be converted. it's going to happen in your district, in your state sooner or later.

so why wait until it happens to you? why not get out ahead of this, being for an assault weapons ban before it happens in your state or your district is what may prevent it from happening in your state or your district. so listen, i'm glad for representative golden's declaration tonight. we are a little closer to passing assault weapons ban in the house and senate because of his decision, but i wish folks got there before it happened to them in their community. >> yeah, and it's unlikely something like that would pass in the house as it's currently constructed now. let me take you from the sublime to the ridiculous. this is fox news' a set of their reactions to the shooting. >> we need serious law and order. that means that we need to defund sanctuary cities but that means we need to acknowledge the cancer in america that is mental health. >> we have to have a greater ability for our citizens to protect themselves because it's clear that law enforcement comes

in after the massacre. >> when something like this happens, what is your plan? what do you do? i have a personal security plan. i train in mixed martial arts. i'm a big believer in the second amendment for a long time. >> sean hannity believes his mixed martial arts training will protect him from a mass shooting. your thoughts? >> yeah, this is like so tired, they pull out these tropes, shooting after shooting. yes, no, mixed martial arts doesn't do you much good against an ar-15. but frankly, neither does having a weapon. having a ton of guns in your community safer, america would be the safest community in the world. inside the united states, states and communities that have more guns are more violent. and so it's just a myth that having more guns keeps you safer. and this idea that it's mental illness, yes, of course, we have a mental illness epidemic in this country. of course we should treat people with mental illness, but we don't have more mental illness

than europe or asia. we don't spent less money on treating than those other countries but we have all the gun violence. why is that? because in this country if you're having a break with reality, we allow you like you can get your hands on a bottle of water, to get your hands on a weapon of mass destruction. that's why we have all the mass shootings. i would love for there to be some originality in the defenses that the right and fox news gives to the state of mass shootings in america. it's the same stuff shooting after shooting, all of it is talking points from the nra. the american public knows this. that's why they're increasingly deselecting from congress people who stand with the nra and electing people who want to change gun laws. >> senator chris murphy, i want to thank you. i want to put up the list of the top five countries with the highest number of civilian firearms. and we're right up there, way, way at the top. there is no other country that is not at war that you can go to where you have to worry about

being shot in a bowling alley. senator chris murphy, thank you very much. up next on "the reidout," despite voters' dissatisfaction with the upending of roe v. wade, house republicans managed to elect the most anti-choice speaker possible ahead of the 2024 election. make that make sense. "the reidout" continues after this. after this ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd... ...medicine has the power to treat copd... ...in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler,... ...trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler... ...for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it.

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remember back in 2010 when

republicans were trying to win the house? here is how they ran that entire campaign. >> california has nancy pelosi. >> she voted with nancy pelosi 91% of the time. >> ben chandler, nancy pelosi's lap dog. >> isn't one nancy pelosi enough? >> one wonders why republicans, knowing abortion is a losing issue for them, would make mike johnson of louisiana the face of the party as speaker of the house. as recently as january, johnson tweeted, we'll get the number of abortions to zero, exclamation point. in louisiana, because of the fall of roe v. wade. thanks be to god. ee have talked about his role in trying to help donald trump overturn the election. but his history is far more troubling than just that. as david roth cough points out, johnson is more dangerous than trump because johnson actually wants to make america into a christian theocracy. his extreme views have been on open display for decades, as

early as 2003, he was writing anti-lgbtq editorials back home. in 2004, he defended louisiana's proposed state-wide ban on same-sex marriage, writing that allowing same-sex marriage would lead to people marrying their pets. their pets. and his path to republican politics began as senior attorney for a group dedicated to destroying lgbtq plus protections and outlawing abortion. now known as the alliance defending freedom. the group that's trying to ban the abortion pill mifepristone and who represented a colorado baker who refused to make a cake for a gay couple and a web designer who refused to make a hypothetical wedding site for a couple who didn't exist. it's no wonder a spokesman said johnson is jim jordan with a jacket and a smile. just listen. >> the radicals with a home

asoexual agenda of the country wants judges to decide and not the people. >> a democracy is two wolfs and a lamb deciding what's for dinner. it's a constitutional republic. the founders set that up because they followed what a civil society is supposed to look like. >> there's a move to keep religion out of politics. many of us have been working for this day our entire adult lives. it's a great joyous occasion. >> roe v. wade gave constitutional cover to the elective of killing an unborn children in america, period. you think about the implications of that on the economy, we're all struggling to cover the bases of social security and medicare and medicaid and the rest. if we had all those able bodied workers in the economy, we wouldn't be toppling over like this. >> joining us is irin carmon and jed leggatt.

i want to go to your first, you're at the table. he said the quiet part out loud there. he says make them give birth so we can have more low wage workers right here in the usa. weird that he would say that in his outside voice. also weird that republicans would say that guy ought to be, you know, the person who is going to be their avatar going into the next election. give us more background because you know more. >> if you look at his career, all the way from when he graduated law school in 1998, he has really been dedicated to using the government to first as a lawyer, then as a state legislator, now as speaker of the house, to impose his own religious views using the power of government on others. whether they agree with it or not. and that's been very consistent. one of his first big cases, first big advocacy positions he came out with that you can read about in the old archives of the

papers were he was advocating for a class to be taught in public schools that would treat the bible as a literal truth, as a history book. and teach children that these are things that actually occurred. and what was interesting about that is not only did people who are interested about the separation of church and state raise some alarms but also a lot of religious people said, wait a minute, i'm a catholic. this course does not meet what i believe either. wetient be teaching children this as well because it had a very particular point of view. so i think it really shows you what his priorities are and how he will be guiding the house. i think from abortion and also on a whole host of other issues, those are going to be his priorities doing whatever he can in this position, and he can do quite a bit. >> sure. >> because he's speaker of the house, to enforce those views on everyone. >> on everyone else. irin, you interviewed mike johnson. i remember the series you did

back in 2015. i think i had you on to talk about it, and play clips of it. you interviewed him as part of the series on people who are vigorously religious folks who are extremely anti-abortion. talk about what he told you. because he tied abortion to school shootings, i believe. >> that is correct. very explicitly. you know, joy, i went to boger city, louisiana, to meet with him because i was looking for somebody who was really at the core of the conservative legal movement. because as judd mentioned, he's someone who used the law and then government, he had just been elected to the state legislature to advance the views that we're seeing already being put into practice. really, the script used to overturn roe v. wade, to undermine the rights of same-sex couples, can they hope to do a lot more including overturning obergefell, the supreme court decision that allowed for same-sex marriage to be the law throughout the land. i sat down with him.

he had this ned flanders vibe that seems to be the main reason that he got unanimous support. it's truly baffling to me that people had to google him, senators had to google him. to me, it was very clear that he was despite that ned flanders vibe, a fire breathing conservative, part of a movement that was once a fringe part of the republican coalition. it was always part of that coalition, dating back about 51 years. but he's now rapidly moving into the center, and so some of the things he told me in the hour that we spent together, and i was able to find a 27-page transcript which i wrote about for new york magazine today, he told me that the coarsening of society, particularly legalized abortion, has led people to believe that life has no meaning and that's how you get school shooters. that part is a direct quote. he also told me that he was feeling optimistic that soon

republicans would outnumber democrats or he said pro-life voters would outnumber pro-choice voters because, vote, pro-choice people abort their babies and eventually, i'm paraphrasing, eventually they would outnumber pro-choice voters. maybe he realized that wouldn't work and that's why he wanted to throw out the votes of people who disagreed with him and vote for donald trump, but needless to say, at the time, it was hard to imagine that somebody like him would be second in line in the succession for presidency within eight years. >> you're absolutely right. he did believe in the election that elected him, by the way. let me play mike johnson in 2005 talking about same-sex marriage. >> the lawrence case opened the flood gates for same sex marriage and a push for it because it recognized a fundamentt right, constitutional right to sodomy, which had never been recognized before. this is where we're headed, why it's important to rein in the

federal judiciary. >> this is rel vpt because you did write the great book, the notorious rbg. him saying that is one thing, but i pair that with clarence thomas giving a concurrg opinion in the dobbs case that overturned roe, saying the court in theuture should also reconsider all of the court's substantive due process precen including griswold, which legalized the pill, contraception, lawrence, and obergefell, which would mean making same-sex relationships illegal, and also undoing gay marriage. he's got at least some friends on the court and i believe he's also friendly with amy coney barrett. your thoughts. >> amy coney barrett certainly has been affiliated in different ways. she's spoken at events affiliated with the alliance defending freedom. not only was he a talking head or doing panels about opposing same-sex marriage and hoping that these antique sodmy laws,

that was from the state of louisiana, his home state, the law at issue in lawrence v. texas, he was crafting briefs that helped dictate kinds of arguments that would be taken up by the court. and so, again, they moved from -- the court was beginning to recognize more rights, but as his side gained more control of the supreme court, we saw these arguments move from the margin to the center. we saw samuel alito taking them up wholesale. they were also involved in hobby lobby, closely involved in hobby lobby. they represented several of the plaintiffs including mike johnson. >> how dangerous is this guy? >> well, i think that one of the reasons that he got to this position is he's able to take these extreme positions and put a very kind face on it. so i do think that poses a threat. >> yeah, he does his talk radio voice when he's saying the

extreme things. thank you both very much. up next, donald trump just doesn't seem to understand he can't say whatever he wants when he's a criminal defendant. now, jack smith is asking a judge to reinstate the gag order. we'll be right back.

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we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. in a new court filing, special counsel jack smith is asking a federal judge to not only reimpose the gag order on donald trump in his frel election interference case, but

also to modify trump's condition of release to prevent him from sending even indirect messages to witnesses. smith accused trump of trying to intimidate winces including his former chief of staff, mark meads. pointing to trump's social media post from earlier this week after reporting that meadows had testified in the case in exchange for an immunity deal. trump wrote, some people would take that deal or make that deal, but they're weaklings and cowards and so bad for the future of our failing nation. i don't think mark meadows is one of them, but who really knows? in response, the filing states that based on the defendant's recent social media posts targeting a known witness in this case in an attempt to influence and intimidate him, the court should lift the administrative stay and modify the conditions of release to prevent some harmful and prejudicial conduct. dave, good to see you in person. let's talk about this. donald trump has now violated the order that he stopped

disparaging witnesses twice. he's been fined $5,000 and $10,000. that's not deterring him. the obvious question for a lot of people is beyond a gag order, even if there's a gag order imposed, is he going to be jailed? we know there's an issue with the secret service and it would be monstrous to try to put them in prison with him. at some point, isn't that the only option? >> joy, i think it's unlikely he'll be jailed pretrial. definitely not in new york. that's a civil case. i can't imagine judge engoron is going to send him there when he's going to keep fining him because it's civil, not criminal. in washington, d.c., where judge chutkan is a strong judge who really has no tolerance for a lot of this stuff, she did allow trump to have a stay of her partial gag order while he appeals. now jack smith is saying pull the stay based on what he said about mark meadows. i think that it is possible that if jack smith could make that a condition of his pretrial release that he does not attack

witnesses like mark meadows and that trump violates it, yes, he could be wearing an orange jumpsuit, but i think that's down the line. >> let's talk about donald trump's potential defenses. one defense he's been sort of workshopping publicly is i was just listening to my lawyers. what happens if you were listening to urlawyers and three of your lawyers plead out in georgia? can you still use that defense? >> if he uses that defense, he's got to take the stand. there's no way his lawyers are going to let him take the stand. it will be a perjury trap. and yeah, it makes it harder when your lawyers have cooperated and said no, that wasn't what i told him. and you know, that's it. you start making that defense. you waive attorney/client privilege. >> in a sense, there was a previous judge that breached the privilege. the privilege is kind of gone, right? they can't climb it anymore, and in the case of rudy giuliani or the krakken lady, sidney powell, if they're admitting their committed crime, and jenna

ellis, and he says he was relying on him, does not he attach himself to their criminality. >> you brought it up, the crime fraud exception means there's no attorney/client privilege. you use your attorneys to commit a crime, you can't say yeah, i was relying on my attorneys. if your attorneys said, you can rob a bank, that's okay. that's not a defense. he doesn't have any great defenses. his best defense in d.c. is the first amendment stuff, but ultimately, his best way out of this is to get elected president and tell his doj to drop everything. >> that seems to be his ploy. to try to delay, delay. really quickly, you are coming out of florida. what's going on with that case because it's gone really quiet? >> i couldn't help it, i'm so frustrated by that das. i think that's the best case against trump. the mar-a-lago case, open and shut. dead to rights. the problem is he got lucky. he got judge cannon, who has been favorable to him.

and she is so new, so she's been slow walking this case. this case, i think, even though it's the strongest, is the least likely to be heard before the election. trump's strategy of delay could work. if he becomes president again, he orders doj to drop everything. election. >> how long can she delay it? i guess a judge has complete discretion. as long as he keeps asking for things like i need more discovery, he can keep pushing it. is there an unlimited time she can keep pushing the case? >> judges have a lot of discretion over the calendar and the 11th circuit court of appeals which repudiated her last year is not going to tep in on matters of scheduling. she's going to be able to give trump what he wants. she has coverage to say hey, we need more time. i think the first case that will go against trump will be the case in d.c., judge chutkan ain't messing around, and that

one will be heard and tried, and i think it's likely he'll be found guilty before the 2024 election. >> it will probably affect him literally not at all, if not making him more popular. florida, we can talk bad about it because we lived there. we get to talk -- you can say anything bad about your kids. >> i'm a proud florida man. >> thank you, dave. >> up next, a ground invasion of gaza seems imminent with israel conducting a targeted raid in gaza overnight in preparations for, quote, the next stage of combat. we'll be right back. tools that help protect. alerts that help check. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours.

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. today, new indications that an israeli ground incursion into gaza may be fast approaching. after the israeli military said it conducted a rare targeted raid into the region overnight. part of what it calls preparations for the next stages of combat. the move would only escalate what has already been a devastating and deadly conflict. according to the health ministry in gaza, more than 7,000 people have been killed. that includes the family of al jazeera's gaza bureau chief. the network says he was helping to broadcast live images from the region when he received the news that his wife, his son, and his young daughter had all been killed in an air strike. on top of the civilian toll, the committee to protect journalists says at least 24 journalists in the region have died as a result of the war.

it all comes as israel is facing growing international pressure to cease fire, as leaders in the region and across the globe are on edge waiting to see what comes next. joining me is kim, contributing writer to the atlantic, distinguished fellow at columbia global politics and author of black wave, saudi arabia, iran, and the 40-year rivalry that unraveled culture, religion, and collective memory in the middle east. thank you both for being here. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> let's talk about this regional situation. as it does appear a ground invasion is imminent. what would be -- what should our expectations be about the way countries like saudi arabia and egypt and jordan will react? >> everybody's watching very carefully, not because saudi arabia or jordan or qatar are going to take specific actions beyond condemning killing of

civilians but because they were worry about what is the reaction going to be of groups like hezbollah in lebanon, the shia militant group that is a proxy and very close ally of iran, a regional paramilitary force, frankly, based in lebanon, which has warned that if there were to be a ground invasion by israel into gaza, that would be a red line for them. now, we could expect an escalation of the violence on the border between lebanon and israel, and it has been -- there have been cross fire exchanges over the last few weeks since october 7th. it has been very tense, but so far it's been neither hezbollah nor israel want this to escalate into a real second front. and the red line that hezbollah has drawn is movable, in a sense that they could get away

by saying, well, we feel that our brothers and hamas are still doing okay and we are helping them on the border with israel and lebanon by keeping the israeli army on its toes. but it's going to be a day by situation, honestly. and i think the saudis are going to be watching very closely. we heard the saudi foreign minister at the u.n. just a few days ago saying arab leaders are still ready to talk about peace, which is quite surprising. but also a welcome ray of hope in this tragedy. but i think those kinds of statements will be very difficult to continue making by arab officials, who are very angry about a lot of things, of course, but we're going to be increasingly in a position to make the statements if the ground incursion and the death toll on the civilian side, on the palestinian side, continues to grow. >> and the thing is, you did have the abraham accords and this idea that some of the regional powers would actually

make a peace deal with israel. but it seemed they were gonna throw palestinians under the bus beforehand. now that doesn't seem feasible. is there some world in which, if they want to still pursue a peace deal, they have to resolve the issue of palestinians in the state? >> if the saudis were willing to go for normalization with israel before october 7th by, as you say, throwing the palestinians under the bus or getting minimum compromises or concessions for the palestinians, i think that is no longer possible. they will have to get something substantial, something more holistic, something that is more than just saturate israel and a little something for the palestinians. it's interesting to hear even president biden today, were yesterday, say that once this crisis is over, we will have to have a concentrated effort to

put us on a path towards peace, and that would include a two-state solution. but the immediate focus is on the rising civilian death toll of a tragedy that happened in israel. trying to keep tempers calm as much as possible, because this is a tinderbox at the moment. the danger of a regional conflagration are definitely there. >> and we are seeing the government in israel going at it with the united nations, calling out for the resignation of you and general who said the hamas attacks did not happen in a vacuum and talking about the wider context. there's also a huge obvious refugee crisis. some people are already refugees in gaza. can you talk about the egyptian position here. they have been very clear, as have the jordanians, they're not going to take refugees in because of their fear that those refugees won't be allowed to go back and this will be de-populate in gaza of palestinians. is that a position that they

can maintain as the bombing continues to drive people from the northern part to the southern post and the south gets bombed as well? >> it's definitely one that they will try to maintain. because of the point you make, that these palestinians have already been displaced once. when we say gazans, actually we also mean people who live in gaza, who were refugees from elsewhere in the palestinian historical palestine or palestinian territories for the west bank. and so the fear is that they will be displaced again with no ability to return but the fear in egypt is also that they will have a rest of population in the signage which will then turn the sinai into a staging ground for attacks with israel. and potentially the abram accords. on the jordanian side as we they have a huge palestinian population, back to the 1948, 1967. they don't want more refugees

streaming in. and they are going to be put under a lot of stress if the bombing continues in gaza and refugees massive the border. so far no one has been able to leave in any case. but the longer the violence continues, the longer the war continues, the harder it's going to be to contain this from spilling over. >> we kim ghattas, it's been such a pleasure to speak with. you no one could have been a better choice today. you're so knowledgeable. thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. >> i'll be right back. l be right back.

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join jones breaks down how the new have speaker embodies the rates maga media obsession. he points out the former tv host donald trump elected to former radio host, mike johnson, to lead house republican caucus that appears to be full of wannabe broadcasters. john says mike johnson has the makings of iselin talk show host. the speaker, not so much. that and more on nbc.com, dot reidout blog. all in with chris hayes starts right now. right now. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. we are watching live video coming out of bowden, maine, where our nbc affiliate reports police are investigating at