>> today, on velshi.

we're following developments of a major escalation in the israel-hamas war. israeli soldiers are now inside gaza, and israel's military is signaling a heavier assault to come. this is all happening as the situation for civilians stuck inside gaza is growing more and more desperate by the hour. we'll go live to the region for the very latest. plus, mike pence is now out of the presidential race. why donald trump may have been his undoing all along. i will be joined by congresswoman and former trump impeachment manager madeleine indeed. congressman gregory meeks, who's the ranking member on the foreign affairs me. and former alabama senator doug jones. then, an appearance by ali velshi himself. who made sure to set us up for the special episode of the velshi book club before he went on vacation. he spoke with two bestselling offers about a new effort to

bring the fight for freedom to lead directly into the backyards of the most notorious book banners in america. you're watching velshi, and it starts right now. >> good morning, it's sunday october 29th. i'm charles coleman junior, filling in for ali velshi, and we have got a lot to talk about. at least on vacation, and he'll be back next weekend. but today, we begin with a split screen moment for donald trump. now, the legal landscape is growing more and more dangerous for trump by the day. but somehow, his grip on the republican party was reaffirmed once again this week, with the election of a key ally to the speaker of the house. and in fulton county, four of trump's codefendants have now taken plea deals and agreed to cooperate with prosecutors. meanwhile, in new york, just this week, the former president stormed out of the courtroom shortly after he was fined

$10,000 for violating a court order after the judge denied his lawyers long shot request to dismiss his case. and, and looking ahead, things are likely only going to get worse, for the ex president. it's going to be a very interesting family reunion this week of sorts in a new york courtroom. the former president and his three eldest children, don junior, eric, and ivanka, are all set to testify in trump's civil fraud trial. the judge has already ruled in favor of the attorney general petition james, on the state's motion for summary judgment in this case. but that same judge has yet to decide on the punishment. that punishment will very well likely determine the future of the trump organization. but, despite all of the legal cases that are threatening his freedom, his business, and his political future, it's undeniable that donald trump is still somehow a political force to be reckoned with. for one, he is by far the front

runner from the republican presidential nomination. and just yesterday, mike pence, his former vice president and the man who stonewalled trump's plans to overturn the 2020 election, abruptly dropped out of the race, calling it quits. last week, that chaotic marathon and search for a new speaker of the house resulted in the elevation of mike johnson, johnson, who you haven't heard of, is a little known ultraconservative consult from louisiana. he has expressed anti abortion as well as anti lgbtq views. he is also a trump loyalist, who played a very significant role in shoring up support for congress as far as trump's plan to overturn the election. now, this, we can take as a sign that trumpism continues to remain the dominant ideology within the republican party. joining me to unpack all of this right now is u.s. attorney

barbara mcquade. she was the co-host of the sister in law's podcast, a super lawyer, my friend and colleague, and an msnbc analyst. also joining us is the brilliant chairman, former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele. he is the host of the michael steele podcast, and also an msnbc analyst. good morning to you both, and barbara, i want to begin with you. in just a few days the donald trump circus is going to take another step forward with his entire family, since he and his out just children are taking the stand in new york for the civil trial. what is it that you're going to be watching for? >> well, one of the things that's really interesting, charles, in a civil case, is whether a witness chooses to invoke their fifth amendment right against self incrimination. it's not that they're going to be incriminate here, it's that anything they say over oath could be used against them in some subsequent criminal case. if they believe they have exposure, they can invoke it.

but what's different about a civil case from a criminal case is that in this case, judge -- could use that invocation to draw an adverse inference against the witness. so if they refused to answer a question, he can assume the worst about what the answer would have been. i think that's what i'll be looking for most as these witnesses -- next week. >> michael, i want to talk to you for a moment about the notion of branding. we know that donald trump is not going to be facing any sort of criminal penalties for everything that's going on in new york, but we've been having a lot of conversation about how his political image is impacted by everything going on. do you think that this week may turn the tide in any way shape or form, in terms of how people are viewing him as a businessman, or just overall, with respect to his political brand? >> i think everybody's kind of settled into the camp of those who believe donald trump is a crook. and is getting what he deserves, versus those who believe donald trump is a victim.

and is being put upon by the system. and so those views are hardened. there's a very narrow group, i'm talking narrow, i mean, probably three brothers of a quarter who are sitting there going maybe. i could still be convinced. i think a lot of that is hardened. what i think this does is it reaffirms for a lot of the folks inside the gop that it is time, and most important for them to coalesce around trump. to lock this in. and to move this thing towards the state that they've always wanted to get to, and that is to use the election as a defense against the legal stuff. and to use the legal stuff as an animation -- an animator, something that energizes the base for the election. donald trump is very adept at doing that, and it is still surprising to me that many in the media and many in politics,

and even some in the legal community, just don't see how he's putting these two ends against each other from his own personal benefit. >> barbara, let's talk about the legal stuff, and using that in a different context. this week we saw -- who's no iv codefendant in trump's rico trial in fulton county, basically flip, take a pleaeaand decide, orree to, that she is going to cooperate with prosecutors. give me a rough estimate, on a scale of 1 to 5, how bad of a sign is this for the former president? >> on a scale of 1 to 5, i guess i put it at four. there's still -- i'm sure he will still persist in his claims of innocence, but to have chesbrough and alice and powell all agree to testify against him is pretty powerful. especially in light of his notion that he's going to use as a defense the reliance of advice of counsel. and so now that you have three

lawyers saying that this was all just a pack of lies, that there was no good faith, he has to be able to show that his reliance on lawyers was reasonable and in good faith. if the lawyers themselves can testify that that wasn't the case, it's going to be very difficult for him to convince a jury that it was. i don't give it a five, only because there's still a couple of other lawyers out there. john eastman and rudy giuliani, who are still not pleading guilty. although these three guilty pleas could possibly induce those two to plead guilty, because chaz perot and janet -- are going to provide powerful evidence -- and that's often the way it works. when looking away, you have to get one link before you get the next. and i think eastman and giuliani are the next links in the chain between these pleading defendants and donald trump. >> it will be interesting to watch, barbara, because we know that as we go forward, the deals from 20 wilson's office are going to be less and less attractive.

do you think that we may see a rush by any of the individuals you just named to take a plea, now that they see the odds stacking up further and further against thformer pr and with the remaining 50 defendants who have not played out? >> in my experience, that's often how it works. you see lower level defendants pleading guilty, and so they work out a guilty plea and testify against the higher up in the organization. but not everybody. sometimes people are loyal to the end. some people generally believe in their innocence. sometimes people believe they can beat the rap. and so there's a number of factors to look at. but if you're a lawyer for either eastman or giuliani, i think you have to be having a candid conversation with your client right now about now is the time to work out a deal. deals are not going to get better, you've already seen an escalation, starting from a single misdemeanor to now felonies. in terms of these deals, they're not going to get better, they're going to get worse. so if they're interested in a

guilty plea, now is the time to get in the door. >> michael, quickly, we've had three weeks in the house, where we have not had a speaker. and now republicans have voted unanimously for mike johnson. he's a trump loyalist, he's an election denier, i just have a question.i believe the quote isa rose by any other name is still a rose. you don't put in jim jordan, but you do put in mike johnson. what's the difference in the rationale in terms of who they say no to versus the guy that they've now unanimously chosen to lead the house? >> the goal is to get the central figure in place that you need, and who can be there in 2024 when this election is thrown to the house. that's been the endgame from day one. many of us have been trying to alert and warned folks to that reality. and this has always been about not trying to govern, not trying to move a republican agenda forward that is different from the biden agenda, but it has always been that how do we put the place holder in

space for donald trump, come 2024. they've been successful in doing that, he's palatable to the moderates, who are looking past this rhetoric and his record, and he's exactly who the hard-liners, the maga republicans want. so buckle up, folks. >> buckle up indeed. i want to thank my all-star panel for getting us started this morning. i appreciate you both. coming up, minister benjamin netanyahu says israel has begun the next phase in its war against hamas, as it expands its ground activities in the gaza strip. we'll go live to the region for a report on the ground. plus, the new house speaker we were just talking about, he's an election denier. he's referred to abortion as a holocaust, and he's openly opposed lgbtq rights. my next guest says her top reason for opposing mike johnson is something else entirely. congresswoman madeleine dean

joins us in just a few moments. and, we'll have the very next meeting of the velshi banned book club. hosted by none other than ali velshi. velshi spoke with two bestselling authors who are teaming up with other writers to fight back against book bans in florida. i'm charles coleman junior, and velshi will be right back. stay tuned. stay tuned.

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have we piqued your interest? you can get two unlimited lines for just $30 each a month. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. >> >> welcome back. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. you're watching velshi on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, i in for ali today, who's on vacation. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu says the war between israel and hamas has entered its second stage. israel expanded its military activities on friday, increasing airstrikes and moving troops into gaza on the ground. israeli tanks and infantry remained in gaza on saturday.

all of this comes as the gaza strip is facing a near total internet and communications blackout. some communications have returned to gaza as of sunday morning full -- this is according to a telecommunications provider. a member of nbc's news crew in gaza also said internet and communications were working again. the health ministry in gaza says more than 8000 people have been killed there, including more than 30,000 children. the idf says that 1400 people in israel have been killed. joining me now from tel aviv as nbc news correspondent jay greg. thank you so much for being here, i appreciate you. can you give us the latest for what's on the ground? what are you hearing about the second phase, as the ground invasion in gaza continues? >> much more intense, charles. much more aggressive on the ground. the fourth night in a row that we've seen activity with troops and tanks moving in. as you talk about, staying inside of gaza.

we are watching what the idf calls a large scale and significant strike. that is how they termed what is going on right now. targeting areas underground in that web of tunnels that is underground in gaza, as well as operational structures above ground. and, of course, anti tank installations as they move those tanks in. we know that over the last 24 hours the idf says that they hit 450 targets inside of gaza. and there are reports at this point that israeli troops have established a spot inside of gaza and taken control of one of the towns to the north. so it appears that they have set up a command center on the ground there to the north, and that is where they are operating out into the field there. all of this coming as there are indications that humanitarian aid flow, at the other end of the gaza strip, may intensify dramatically. that, according to the idf. they say they're going to allow

a flow of humanitarian aid in, perhaps starting as early as tomorrow. we know today ten trucks is all that made its way into the border with egypt. so looking for more of that aid to make its way in, desperately needed at this point. >> nbc's jay gray in tel aviv, thank you so much for your reporting. we will certainly be following with you. joining me now in studio is peter beinart. he is the editor at large of -- author of the finer notebook, on stub sack, and msnbc political analyst. thank you so much for being here. i want to get right into the meeting that prime minister netanyahu had with the families of some of those hostages. the families are essentially asking netanyahu to do an entire swap. will trade you your hostages for our hostages in there order to get those who are being held by hamas back home. how do you think netanyahu is handling the appellants with respect to the governments

military goals, and the interest of the families? >> i think netanyahu's view is that if israel were to make that kind of swab, it would incentivize hamas to potentially take more israeli hostages. so i think it's very unlikely he's going to do that. and i think the consequences for the hostages may tragically be really dire. but what i don't think is that this government has good answers right now to the question of what they're going to do after they go into the gaza strip. we know from america's experience in afghanistan and iraq that you can depose a foreign government. what's more -- difficult to do is to get out, because you can't stand up legitimate government. my fear is that israel is going in now, and i understand the agony that israelis are feeling. it ripples off to all of us. all of us are just one or two degrees of separation from someone who's been utterly devastated. we are still overwhelmed by grief. but that grief after 9/11

didn't lead america to make wise decisions, and my fear is that once israel votes in, as it has been, it's going to be in gossip for a long time fighting the same kind of insurgency that the u.s. fought in iraq and afghanistan. >> you mentioned that it's going to be in gaza for a long time. everything that we're hearing from netanyahu suggests that this is going to be a prolonged campaign. we're looking at something that is not likely, at least from the perspective of netanyahu, to be over anytime soon. what was your reaction to his recent speech where he referred to this as the second stage of the war, and also more or less alluded to the notion that this was israel's second war of independence? that is some very strong rhetoric. i mean, how do you react to that? >> it's really important to understand how these words land for palestinians. because when palestinians think about israel's first war of independence, what they think about is the fact that most palestinians were expelled during that war. this is one of the things that palestinians are most terrified about.

already more than 1 million of them have been forced from their homes in the northern gaza strip, forced to go into southern gaza. where they have no homes. they're basically homeless, they're still being attacked there. there's no prospect they can go back. so for a palestinian, when you hear this, they think another second war of independence? that means another act of mass expulsion. the world should not allow that. >> is there any thought from you, given the fact that all of those associations are made with everything that you just talked about, that netanyahu is indeed aware of the sort of under current or pretext of those sorts of remarks, and what they will trigger for palestinians? ? do you think that netanyahu is conscious of that? and so, who is he playing to? >> i don't think that netanyahu has ever taken the palestinians seriously as a group of human beings, who deserve basic freedoms and basic rights. he's always tend to see this as a military problem. we can crush them, we can outsmart them. but fundamentally you've got millions and millions of people in gaza, the west bank, who don't have the most basic human

rights. and if they don't, they are going to be a huge problem for israel. and he's never been willing to take the kinds of decisions that would address that politically, by looking at those roots of the problem. and if you don't do that, i fear israel is going to never have the safety that israeli jews deserve. >> thank you so much for being here, we appreciate you. >> thank you. >> coming up next, 22 days with no speaker. three filled republican nominees and one party in complete disarray. we're going to take a look at the new republican house speaker, and the role he played in the efforts to overturn the 2020 election. we'll talk about it with democratic congresswoman madeleine dean, next. stay tuned, you're watching velshi on msnbc and we will be right back. we will be right back right back ma driven by eosinophils. it's designed to target and remove them and helps prevent asthma attacks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems or other eosinophilic conditions.

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msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior filling in for ali velshi. the u.s. house is back in order somewhat after an historic 22 days of leaderless dysfunction, all because republicans chose to oust their own speaker without any plan for electing a new one. and out of that chaos and after three failed candidacies, liberal congressman pulled out a victory. mike johnson's obscurity may have well been the thing that helped him win. and now he's been elected speaker, second in line to the presidency after the vice president. by the way, folks are taking a hard look at his record. johnson was key to trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election. the new york times last year called him, quote, the most important architect of the electoral college objections on january 6th, 2021. it was johnson who was the vice chair of the gop caucus and a trump ally who led the amicus

brief signed by more than 100 republicans in the house that supported a texas lawsuit seeking to invalidate the 2020 election results in four swing states. now, if being an election denier wasn't enough to excite you about the speaker, just wait, there is more. let me tell you a little bit about his voting record, johnson voted against certifying the 2020 election. he voted against codifying same-sex marriage. he voted against reauthorizing the violence against women act. he voted against aid for ukraine and voted against the pact act. now, that pact act provides care for veterans. he also has a history of voting against legal abortion. and now, this is the guy who just in over two weeks is going to be responsible for helping the country avoid a government shutdown. now, my next guest is raising red flags all over the place regarding johnson's lack of

leadership experience and record of extremism. joining me now is democratic congresswoman natalie dean from pennsylvania. she was an independent manager for the second impeachment of donald trump. thank you so much for being here, congresswoman. with morning to you. you have been so vocal about your lack of trust in speaker johnson. but if you can, please tell us what is it that concerns you the most about him and his record? >> good morning, charles. thank you for having me on. in your lead up, you discussed something that i thought about as i sat on the floor of the house. the secret to the success of mike johnson ascending to the speakership after about a 24-hour run is that very few people knew him or knew what he stands for. i literally was on the floor during the vote, and a democratic colleague of mine said, do you know anything about this guy? have you had any interaction with him? i said i've had plenty of interaction with him because i serve on the judiciary committee where he serves.

he is an extremist maga republican. and i have to tell you, charles, i don't know if i have ever used the word maga. i don't really care for it. but in this case, he slipped in, mike johnson slipped in. he's an extremist. he is a trump ally. he and i literally had a conversation shortly after the certification of president biden. and he tried to defend to me and to others on my side of the aisle why he was such an architect of the election denying scheme, and he tried to argue his legal case about it. and when i said to him that after all, there was an attempted insurrection you were here for it, that didn't change your sights at all. no, it did not. and you saw as he ran for speaker, he couldn't answer the question as who is the rightful president of the united states? it is chilling to me that he is now third in line to the presidency. >> so, congresswoman, we are

talking about a deadline regarding the cr that came into effect just a little while ago, where we are facing a government shutdown in just a few weeks. how confident are you in the new speaker's ability to get us to a point where we are able to keep the government open past november 17th? >> i don't know any of us knows what confidence level we can have. after all, mike johnson voted against the continuing resolution that a vast majority of democrats voted for in order to keep the government open. you know, in his opening speech as speaker, just prior to his being sworn in, he talked about the limited role of government. well, i guess he really wants to limit it because he's gonna vote to shut it down. he talked about the limited role of government. and yet, he would like an nationwide abortion ban. the limited role of government, he voted against aid to ukraine,

protection of that democracy, even as we protect our own. so, we don't have any idea of his level of capacity in terms of making sure we don't shut our government down. he surrounds himself with some talented people. >> congresswoman, i want to pivot just a bit to a subject you are very familiar with, and that is donald trump and legality. you are a house manager for the second impeachment trial for donald trump. and in recent weeks, we've seen his rhetoric around his political and his legal enemies become increasingly more and more violent. as someone who has a strong background dealing with trump in this way, is this something that voters should be more and more concerned about? or is it just enough at this point to chalk it up, trump to spin trump? >> i am very concerned about that. and it is not disconnected from what we just talked about. and mr. johnson as speaker.

leaders would stand up and speak out and say we must work together to stand out any kind of talk of violence. we must stand against the former president in the things that he is going to try to upend the rule of law, trying to undermine our faith in our institutions. but i hope people go back and take a look at mr. johnson. he is really a surrogate for trump. in our hearings in the judiciary, you should see what he does, just like mr. jordan but a little smoother and with a smile. he tries to undermine our faith in our institutions in order to make trump successful in his run for president. it is mighty scary, and i just hope and pray that the republican caucus sees this for what it is and saves us from going to the brink of destroying our democracy. >> so much more we can talk

about on this, but running out of time, i gotta thank you, pennsylvania congresswoman madeleine dean, appreciate you being here. now, ali maybe on vacation. but he left us a little something before he took off. up next, we have the latest on the meaning of the velshi banned book club. with florida overtaking texas as the state with the most book bans, ali had the opportunity to speak with two others who are joining forces with nearly two dozen other rioters to stop that. i'm charles coleman junior of. and while she will be right back on the other side of the spray. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ this is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified. they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a chromebook. now they're focused on learning knowing that their data is secure. ( ♪♪ ) have you ever wondered what an icon,... ...a legend,... ...a legacy,... ...a pop star,... ...and a tight end all have in common?

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about florida. for starters, i am told it is the only place on the planet where alligators and crocodiles coexist in the same ecosystem. florida also produces more than 70% of the nations oranges.

and now, florida's number one in the nation for book banning. according to our friends at pan america, a nonprofit dedicated to the freedom to read and write, florida has officially surpassed texas as the nation's leading state for banning books this school year. some 40% of book removed from public school libraries and classrooms take place in florida. the majority of the challenges happen on the school district level where local school boards are inundated with complaints seemingly from individual parents, and lists from highly organized activist groups of titles they want censored. no work of literature seems to be safe, not shakespeare's romeo and juliet, not judy blume's generation defining, are you there god, it's me, margaret. and certainly not most of jordan pecos collection of best selling novels. perhaps more insidious, the sheer volume of books being censored in governor desantis's stat is the fact that florida is creating a roadmap for other conservative states to follow.

since we began holding meetings in the velshi banned book club in early 2022, the attacks on access to literature have only increased. book banning has become a ballot initiative and a rallying cry for conservative lawmakers and advocates. the removals we see every single day or a coordinated attack on literary and intellectual freedom. we have an unofficial slogan on the velshi banned book club, reading as resistance. when an activist reads and out of context passage from a book in the middle of a school board meeting, how do you fight that? you fight it with contacts. you understand the plot, the character development, the use of the language. you read. the book is your weapon, it's your message. it's your armor. but there's another equally powerful and necessary weapon. and that is mobilization. pan america and 24 prominent writers are doing just that. together, they have raised some $3 million to open an advocacy

office in one of florida's biggest cities, miami. the new center is crucial, it sends a message to florida and the rest of the nation, we're not giving up. we're just getting started. collectively, these poets, novelists, children's authors, and best sellers are helping to open that miami center. they have sold 1.6 billion books worldwide between them. and many of them have already joined us on the velshi banned book club, including lori anderson, david levithan, and jody pico. today, two more authors will become member of the velshi banned book club, michael connally and david -- not because their books are banned but because they are resisting and they are fighting back. and they join me after this break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk.

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job is that i get to interview and talk to the writers whose material i read regularly. joining me now are two bestselling authors and part of the force behind pen america's new advocacy center in miami, florida, michael connally and david -- michael connally is the best selling author of 38 conviction of those with over 35 million copies sold worldwide. connolly's books are notable for their plots and their sharp direct language. they are a modern answer to the hardball detective stories that were made popular in the twenties and thirsty's. david bocce turn to novel writing while practicing law in the late 90s, writing his first novel every night from ten pm

to two a.m.. since then, he wrote 46 suspense and legal thrillers for adults. his books are a master class in compelling protagonists that spent numerous areas not just one of. gentlemen, thank you both for being here. i want to start with the organizing behind this book. michael, let me start with you. the book banning epidemic, characterized by how organized and calculating the book banning advocacy groups are. it's not actually individual parents across the country. this is one of the largest shows of force. what you are involved in as one of the largest shows of force we've seen against book banning. tell me more about it. >> well, it's because of pen america coming to us with -- it's a very important issue. i'm happy to have a long term connection with florida so i think they came to me, and i think david does as well. and, you know, it's happening kind of in my back yard, so i had to join this immediately

and step up and see what we can do, kind of put boots on the ground, as you have mentioned, we are opening this center in miami. and i think we'll be able to be right there to see what's going on and to take legal measures and other steps when we see this happening, you know, as we go on. as you say, almost every day. >> david, many of the authors behind's florida's project submitted a quote, i want to read you from one author, daniel hadler, known his pen name, lemonis smith. albooks are problematic. every single piece of writing is upsetting to someone. we cannot spend our time removing books which us personally, or all the shelves in the world will be bare. and then the entire world will be very upset indeed, and quote. and i think that's a very important point because we read a lot of books, we love the literature. we talk to people about why they're so great. but some of them are not comfortable. some of the more difficult to read. how do you react to that? the more diffi>> books are suppe

you uncomfortable. they're supposed to get you out of your comfort zone, making you think about things that you don't want to think about, issues that you didn't want to confront, and give you context, go forward and think about those things maybe change your outlooks and perspectives. books are supposed to make you think. if every book was -- what will be the point of having books? i agree with mike. we have to make this stands now. look, this is not about banning a bunch of books. this is not removing from the public domain certain issues and discussions. in certain parts of society, that is what this is really about. and the first thing i learned in law school was the slippery slope was indeed slippery. right now, there are school's libraries going after public libraries -- the board has shown propensity towards banning discussion of gender identity and sexual orientation. it was first elementary school, then middle school, now high school. they're coming for a lot more.

this is just the beginning. >> and, mike, part of the issue here is this concept of offense, right? the idea that a book that offense you is not a reason to ban it. you need to protect your choice to make the decision for yourself, for your children, not to hand that over me. >> absolutely. i mean, i have no problem with apparent dealing with their child and what they think is best for them. but i don't want that parents telling all parents or all people what they can read and what they can't. i mean, that is against every thing they believe in this country. >> what works, david, you mentioned florida, and why florida specifically is not only for the volume of book banning, but the way in which the book banning goes into a ban on intellectual freedom. it's not just books, it's the teaching of certain curricula, it's the ap, african american history course, things like that. what is the value of attacking it this way, fighting back in

an organized fashion, opening an office? tell me the tactic. >> this is about we think public awareness of people, having a lot of things going on in their life. and i am inundated with politics of this country. but that's not most people. so, they have lots of other things they have to worry about. so this movement that we are a part of is to raise public awareness about what's going on. you know, i said that book bannings and what this country stands for, we typically fight wars against countries that do that sort of thing. and when you talk about rights, you might just point that out that books are presumed to be guilty until proven innocent. once you follow one thing, it goes off immediately, it goes to the limbo of vetting. nobody really knows what's happening. if the book is banned, book banning parents rights, for the parents wanted to remain on. they're in fact, once it starts, it rolls like a snowball. and it devastates certain parts of this country. and it's not what we stand for. libraries are, i grew up in jim

crow virginia in the 60s. libraries saved me, they allowed me to see a part of the country have never seen. it helped me be a definite different person because of books. >> that is the perfect example of that. the author of numerous books, mike, she joined us here on the velshi banned book club on april. and she actually uses florida as a backdrop and a narrative device and a lot of her work. i asked her about this state. listen to what you told me. >> i am so profoundly in love with the place. but i'm also deeply distrustful and disdainful of certain things, for instance, the political landscape right now. i love the environment. in gainesville, we have this prairie and we have these streams nearby, these sources that are cold and beautiful. and you can just float down them for hours. and it's so spectacular. and yet, what people are doing to it drives me crazy and it

makes me profoundly sat. >> michael, as you mentioned, you spent your childhood in florida partly. florida is doing some crazy stuff, but, boy, it's a nice place to spend time, particularly for those of us in the northeast in the winner. se of us i the northeast in the>> yeah, i e with lauren. that's how i view it. i moved there when i was 12 years old. and the summer when i was 12 years old when i went to a public library in fort lauderdale, florida. i'll tell you the truth, the librarians wouldn't let you just sit there and enjoy the air conditioning. they made you real a book. and one librarian made me read to kill a mockingbird, to kill a mockingbird. and so, she talks about what hurts her heart, that really hurts my heart. that's a punch in my heart that last year in palm beach county, there were attempts to ban, to kill a mockingbird, a story

about what it means to be a hero. to me, that is crazy. >> david, one of the things we do on this show we talk a little bit about the political reasons for these bands. there is about four reasons in all history why people banned those books, they just evolved a little bit. but there are ideas in these books. i am thinking about margaret atwood and handmade sale. i'm thinking about the 16 19 project with nikole jones. there are ideas that people who do not want those ideas reaching their kids because it will teach them to be whatever, you talked about this about your reading in the libraries in jim crow era virginia. it does give you ideas and those ideas made you a better person and a great writer. >> book statue apathy which is the greatest human attribute because it makes you sympathize and become tolerant of people. look, book banning, we've had them in this country, and it's always tied to a greater effort. and that is to create the

bogeyman that we all can take. in these types of book bannings, and the lgbtq community is prominent that these books are banned. when you ban something, what do you tell the community? you are saying, it's bad. it's wrong. you should know about that. it's not something that is good. so these kids may grow up just because these books are banned, thinking about, a certain way about a part of our society. so it's all about taking books, -- creating the bogeyman so that you can rile a public sentiment and hatred and intolerance against people. when dictators takeover countries, one of the first things they do is they shut all the libraries. why? that's where the humanity exists. that's what makes us human beings, and it makes us tolerant and intellectual. they don't want any of that. that is what this book banning white now is tied to. trying to eliminate certain segments of our society. >> guys, thanks very much for what you and your colleagues are doing and for what we pen

america is doing. and i'm grateful to you personally, as i read both of your novels. the upcoming restriction walk, a lincoln lawyer novel. and david baldacci, bestselling author, 47 of, and the founder of the wish you well foundation which supports family and adult literacy in the united states. e united states. >> a special thanks to ali for that very important conversation. i'm charles coleman junior sitting in for ali who is on a very well deserved vacation. velshi we'll be back next weekend. but in the meantime, we've got a lot of things to talk about with another hour of velshi coming up with the latest on the israel hamas war, the increasingly desperate humanitarian crisis inside gaza. plus, if most of what you know about gaza is from these past few weeks of war, you will want to stick around to see this story we are bringing you in the next hour. ali velshi himself visited gaza back in 2019.

we will bring you footage and interviews from that trip. a day in the live picture of what it was like in gaza for this most recent war broke out. and the latest on the republican race for president, with trump's spiraling legal peril, to mike pence surprising exit from the race. another hour of velshi on msnbc starts right after a quick break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's bitterly cold. lacking clean water and sanitation.

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