firing rockets, then of course we will have to respond to it, but our intention is for that area to be the safest area for civilians to go to. it's in the south, which is where we have told palestinians to move out of concern for their safety and we hope that the international aid which is coming in through the rafah crossing channeled to that area. >> lieutenant colonel, thank you for joining us. >> that will do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. happy monday, it's 4:00 in new york. the ex-president today getting a lesson the rest of us learned as children, that words have consequences. judge tanya chutkan has reinstated her gag order on donald trump, meaning that the ex-president is once again barred from making remarks targeting prosecutors, witnesses or court staff.

"new york times" also notes this, quote, in making her decision, the judge also denied a request by ump's lawyers to freeze the gag order for what could have been a considerably longer period. saying it can remain in effect as the federal appeals court in washington reviews it. judge chutkan's move is the latest chapter but has become a protracted legal battle between special counsel jack smith and donald trump with incredibly high stakes. at its heart is this question, will a defendant with one of if not the biggest megaphone in the world be subject to any of the same rules as any of the rest of us if we were criminal defendants in the united states? to that question judge chutkan says yes and her ruling she writes the first amendment rights of participants in criminal proceedings must yield when necessary to the orderly administration of justice. the judge also rejecting the notion that her gag order was too vague to be enforceable.

pointing out that donald trump himself clearly understood what he was and was not allowed to say. she points to a statement trump made on the 20th that chutkan says, quote, asserts that defendant is innocent, that his prosecution is politically motivated and that the biden administration is co it does not violate the order's prohibition of targeting certain individuals. in fact, the order expressly permits such assertions. four days later after a stay was placed on the gag order trump posted a statement about his former chief of staff and key witness mark meadows, that according to judge chutkan would,quote, almost certainly violate the order under any reasonable definition of targeting. keep in mind when we -- all this in mind when we tell you the next piece of news, this reported by the "washington post." trump appeared to potentially violate chutkan's order 75 whopping minutes after she gave notice it was reinstated, attacking his former attorney

general bill barr, a potential witness. the ex-president once again under a gag order restricting his dangerous rhetoric in the to overtuur criminal case into his attempt to overturn our democracy. this is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "politico" national correspondent betsy woodruff swan is back with us, plus former top official at the department of justice andrew weissman is here, also joining us the former lead investigator for the january 6th select committee tim hafey is here. andrew weissman, the paper that has been filed by jack smith's office has laid out such a robust and detailed case, but i wonder if it isn't trump's own conduct that sort of put this over the edge for judge chutkan. what do you think? >> i do. i think it is a question of donald trump's own continued words and words where he has seen the consequences of those

words that is the reason that you're seeing judge chutkan and judge ingoran take action because as they said they're concerned about the targeting of individuals. in judge chutkan's case she's concerned about jurors, court staff, prosecutors, with the other judge the issue was his law clerk and i think that's why you're seeing those actions. i think that judge chutkan used those words as you noted, nicolle, to point out why her order was not unduly vague, meaning that it is important for whoever is subject to an order to know what it specifies because you want to make sure in connection with the first amendment that you know what's prohibited and what isn't prohibited and she gave very clear examples in her order saying this is what you could do, this is what you couldn't do and pointed out that in her view

that donald trump was aware of that and knew exactly what her order specified. now it is going to be subject to appeal and he is seeking a stay on appeal of the order. it is in effect right now, but the next thing that we can all expect is for donald trump to be arguing on appeal why the decision should be stayed while he argues the appeal. >> donald trump is mainlining to his base a first amendment argument. tim hafey, let me read you some of jack smith's language, either designed to counter that or preempt that. quote, there has never bee a criminal case in which a court has granted a defendant an unfettered right to try his case in the media. to malign the presiding judge as a, quote, fraud and a, quote, hack. attack the prosecutor as, quote, deranged and a, quote, thug.

and after promising witnesses and others, quote, if you go after me i'm coming after you, end quote, target specific witnesses with attacks on their character and credibility. even suggesting that one witness's actions warrant the, quote, punishment of death. the first amendment with his ys candidate grants him unfettered rights to do these things and more and the most the court can do is either wait for harassment nd violence to occur and then take remedial steps. january 6 is a moment of letting it get that far, right, waiting for violence to occur and then -- i don't even know if we call trump's conduct remedial. the thing about the arguments in the paper that jack smith has filed in this case is that it's not abstract, it's not theoretical. we have had a call to violence, to, quote, be there, will be wild, end quote, and we have had a response. what is the actual objective of

trump's legal argument? to create a climate where violence is probable? >> to create pressure and intimidation, nicolle, much like his words on january 6th created pressure and intimidation on the joint session. we have seen repeatedly how his words are not simply rhetorical, are not hypothetical, are not figures of speech. when he says, be there, we will be wild, people take that as an actual invitation. we've talked to dozens of people that heard his rhetoric and took it literally. we also heard a lot of people -- we worked very hard over the course of the select committee's process, nicolle, to identify real victims, realtime consequences of his rhetoric. when he criticizes ruby freeman and shia moss, they get death threats. when he criticizes rusty bowers

in arizona people drive by his house and threaten to kill him and his family. this is not simply words, protected speech, rhetoric, but rather words that have an actual effect and the president knows that. by now he is very, very specifically aware of the megaphone that he possesses. so judge chutkan is trying to protect the integrity of the judicial process and protect the people involved in this case because, again, that rhetoric has realtime consequences. >> let me ask both of you as former prosecutors, have you ever seen any defendant in any walk of life, organized crime, corporate -- i mean, has anyone ever acted like this before? you first, andrew. >> no. the answer to that is no. quite to the contrary, i've been in cases involving special counsel mueller's investigation where there were limits placed

not just on defendant's counsel, which is standard in the district of columbia where this a case is but on defendants, roger stone being the most notable. to your point, nicolle, and to tim's point about violence, one of the more chilling aspects of this case was the brief submitted by donald trump to the district court saying why there shouldn't be a gag order, saying if there is violence, that's on the people who take up my words and commit the violence, it's not on me, donald trump. saying i can say whatever i want and if people act on it, don't look at me. that i find the most chilling because any responsible person who is trying to avoid violence, who is trying to avoid the fear and intimidation that tim has referred to correctly, would be saying i'm trying to do everything to not have that

happen, to not be using my words in a way that could lead to that. any normal person would be trying to make sure that they wouldn't in any way be responsible for harming another person, and this is quite the contrary where you have the government, i think, correctly saying that these words he knows darn well are going to lead to these consequences and as tim said that is the intent. >> tim, i want to read some more from chutkan's order and then i want to know if you have ever seen anyone who acted like this. judge chutkan's order goes on to explain that trump has also made clear that he understands precisely where the lines are under the gag order and not. quote, the statement singles out a foreseeable witness for potentially unfavorable ng his testimony as a, quote, lie made up to secure immunity and it attacks him as a weakling and coward if he provides that

unfavorabl testimony an attack that could be interpreted as an attempt to influence or prevent the witness' participation in this case. the plain distinctions between the statement and the prior o apparent to the court and both parties demonstrate that far from being arbitrary or standardless, the order's prohibition on targeting statements can be straightforwardly understood and applied. basically saying trump is smarter than he seems and can understand and abide by this order and still have lots of running room to exercise his first amendment. is that right? >> yeah, absolutely. look, we saw another example of that just today. i think he posted something on truth social where he blasted judge chutkan, which is permissible under this limited gag order, but stayed clear of blasting a witness against him, the deranged -- allegedly deranged special counsel, staff of the court. judge chutkan's order is really

carefully tailored. he can't criticize individuals, he can't criticize prosecutors, can't criticize court staff, can't krit surprise witnesses by name. he can criticize more broadly the criminal justice system and allege that this is all a rigged, politically-motivated prosecution and he has demonstrated again and again that he is able to understand that distinction and walk that line. your question about the past, nicolle, i tried a lot of violent crime, gang-related cases in the past and i have had witnesses remanded pending trial for mentioning to others that a witness is potentially cooperating and suggesting that somebody take action against that witness. not publicly, just in a conversation with someone else involved in a conspiracy. this is the kind of conduct that routinely leads to severe consequences by federal judges. those consequences are designed to protect the integrity of the process which means keep people safe or not prejudice potential

jurors because, again, everything that a defendant or a party in a case says publicly has the potential to impact jurors who are potentially called to sit in this case. so those are the policy goals and this kind of statement in my experience is often in the past led to much more significant consequences than a limited gag order. >> i mean, betsy, so much of this is in the public arena. the piece that tim is getting at is the -- in the chutkan says the jurors who don't exist yet, they haven't been through that process, but let me show you all the evidence we gathered in the public arena of the smears and the attacks received and i think almost all of these people were trump allies with a couple of exceptions. >> and i watched you this morning and you said, well, there was no criminality, but, i mean, all of this stuff is very dangerous stuff when you talk about no criminality. i think it's very dangerous for you to say that. >> i was getting texts all over

the country and eventually my wife started getting a text and hers typically came in as sexualized text which were disgusting. >> president trump disclosed mike sharky's personal phone number to his millions of followers. >> all i remember is receiving over -- just shy of 4,000 text messages over a short period of time calling to take action. >> on december 30th trump ally steve bannon announce add protest at cutler's home. >> if we have to we are going to go to homes. >> all of my personal information was doxxed online. it was my personal email, my personal cellphone, my home phone number. in fact, we had to disconnect our home phone for about three days because it would ring all hours of the night and would fill up with messages. >> there is nowhere i feel safe.

nowhere. do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states target you, the president of the united states is supposed to represent every american. not to target one. but he targeted me, lady ruby, a small business owner, a mother, a proud american citizen who stand up to help fulton county run an election in the middle of the pandemic. >> betsy, those of us who have covered him for eight years have become so accustomed to it that i think journalists like yourself wrestle with monitoring a rally and speech and, i don't know, does it rise to a level, right, but those were real people with real lives and those were things that he said on phone calls with lots of people on it, from crowded rooms and

podiums. the collateral damage, the human toll of his inciteful -- intentionally inciteful rhetoric in a post january 6th environment really hasn't been detailed and challenged by anyone until jack smith and in this case specifically before judge chutkan. >> no question. and part of the challenge is quantifying the extent to which years and years of this rhetoric is affecting regular american citizens as well as government officials. there is one really interesting number we have that points to the effect of trump's rhetoric on jack smith and his team specifically, that number is nearly $2 million which is how much money jack smith's office had to spend on u.s. marshals' protection just from november of last year until march of this year. just that six-month stretch from which they released their information about expenditures, a source familiar with jack smith's probe told me that

almost $2 million is how much it was just for them to be protected, just for those prosecutors to be safe in the work that they're doing and, again, just over six months of a probe that will run for much more longer period of time than that. and of course there's this enormous intangible cost because of the extraordinary chilling effect of trump's rhetoric on people such as poll workers. so many people who are the backbone of our electoral system are people like the january 6th witness whose video you just played, women like her who do work right at the front lines of just making the election process function properly, and when people fear that simply doing those jobs can result in their lives being turned upside down and their physical safety being jeopardized, that has an extraordinary chilling effect on people's participation and facilitation of the democratic process and the effect that that has is likely to stretch out for years to come with repercussions that are hard to understand now,

but that could be incredibly dangerous. >> betsy, he's turned some of his ire on his own former innermost circle. i read the attacks on mark meadows calling him a coward. we've covered extensively the attacks on mark milley who sort of shows up in both the mar-a-lago case and the january 6 case. he has accused him of treason, a crime punishable by death. but he seemed to save some special venom for none other than bill barr. let me read this to you. quote, i called bill barr dumb, weak, slow moving -- which is so interesting -- lethargic, gutless and lazy. a rhino who in all caps couldn't do the job. he just didn't want to be impeached, which the radical left lunatics -- oddly capitalized -- were preparing to do. i was tough on him in the white house for good reason. so now this moron says about me to get even, quote, his verbal

skills are limited. well, that's one i haven't heard before. tell that to the biggest political crowds in the history of politics, by far. bill barr is an -- in all caps -- loser. bill barr may very well be a witness in this case. he is in the case tim hafey oversaw one of the earliest witnesses to have knowingly confronted trump with the truth on specific conspiracies, the georgia plot, the michigan plot, the detroit ballots, the milwaukee -- i mean, he went in and used his justice department to investigate these claims, which if not unethical is highly unusual. that is as sort of straight up attempted intimidation as you get even in a bad mob movie. what do you hear from any of

these folks counsel? >> one thing that i have heard is from people in the broader trump circle who don't want to speak on the record about the former president because they have concerns about the impact that it could have on themselves, their families, their physical safety. obviously there are plenty of people who have worked for trump who are willing to talk publicly about it and to take the risk, but i think what people don't see is that there's other folks who are deliberately and with consideration staying quiet because they're worried about the impact that this type of language has-on them and particularly people with family members who feel like the risks they take are not just risks towards themselves but also risks toward the people who live with them and depend on them to stay safe. we also have seen this in the case of the u.s. attorney for the district of d.c. who are overseeing the january 6th prosecutions. he told members of the house judiciary behind closed doors in recent weeks that he has seen pervasive threats from around

the country target his office and that he is worried not just about his safety but also about his family's safety. again, these are prosecutors, people in government whose responsibility it is to go after violent criminals who are themselves facing these violent threats because of the work they're doing and because of the spotlight that gets directed on them. >> just extraordinary. and it's not and if, it's a how many, right? it's not if the calls for violence will result in violence, we have had that happen. as betsy is talking about, hundreds of prosecutions from january 6 rioters. it just feels like we have to turn a different mirror on this and say this is what they want, what do the rest of us do? i want to press you, andrew, and you, tim hafey, on what that looks like. we will have much more on all of this. we're also going to turn to the ex-president's attacks on joe biden's age. how they're really just more projections than actual lines of attack when speaking about his

own verbal gaffes and mistakes. we will show it to you, we will show you new reporting in the "new york times" that wraps it all up. of course, over on earth 2 hypocrisy is dead but you will appreciate it anyway. plus the civil fraud trial that hits at the core of everything trump tried to build his political life on is, quote, about to unravel. we will preview what we can expect over the next several days in that case as the trump kids get ready to take the stand under oath. and later in the broadcast israeli defense forces have freed another hostage held by hamas as they continue to strike targets in gaze. we will have a live report from the border there in israel and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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we're back with betsy, andrew and tim. andrew, just pick up on this idea of -- i don't want to call it a cold war, but this sort of sustained aggression from trump and his supporters against prosecutors. >> well, that obviously has been going on for quite some time. i would be a good person to talk about that since it certainly was going on during the mueller investigation and it's going on now. but i think that is an area where it is likely to have the least effect. it is true that as betsy said that enormous attention has to be paid to prosecutors and their families in terms of threats of

violence, but i think that the bigger systemic threat is to jurors and witnesses, both actual witnesses and witnesses who have information who are going to be unwilling to come forward. it can be very difficult in high-profile cases, even where there is no sense of violence at all, to get people to be candid and speak up because they just don't want the attention. they don't want to have their names on news stations, in the media. they want to lead their lives without any of that glare. and then add to that the kind of threats, the really disgusting, horrible things that people say and worse, do, in response to

the former president's words. and so it's very, very hard to deal with that if you are the prosecutors and agents trying to get people to be candid. we have mitt romney, his own discussion about how he sent his colleagues in the senate were concerned and actually did not vote for impeachment of the former president because of those concerns. and imagine people who did not take an oath to uphold the laws and constitution and are just being asked to cooperate, it's very tempting to just say i don't recall and i don't remember and to duck that responsibility. so i think that's the -- ng that's both the goal and it certainly is the consequence of this kind of behavior. >> i mean, tim hafey, it seems that the committee dealt with this on many occasions, but

perhaps none so high profile as cassidy hutchinson who confirms a lot of what the committee said at the time, that her public testimony was scheduled when it was scheduled with as little notice as there was because there were concerns for her safety. how do you do that? how do you address that at such a large scale? >> yeah, you're exactly right, she actually told us that she was told that the big guy reads transcripts. that was very early during her cooperation with us. essentially via some messenger that he's paying very close attention to who is cooperating with the select committee process and who is not, and she admitted and others did as well that that was intimidating. so there's, again, our process demonstrates the practical manifestation of all of this. the threats of violence and the reluctance as andrew says for people to come forward. you deal with it by what judge chutkan is doing, which is impose a consequence.

so she's imposed a gag order. the judge is new york has actually issued a financial penalty. but if this continues then the next consequence is jail. i won't be shocked if the former president persists and directly violates the terms of this very narrowly tailored gag order, there's very little in the toolbox for judge chutkan than a period of incarceration. in the cases that i tried if anyone said anything that was remotely close to witness intimidation he would be in jail pending trial. here judge chutkan as always will be extremely careful. the former president knows what the terms are, he has a lot of leeway to criticize more broadly the process without invoking individuals and ideally he stays away from that. the other thing that's going to happen, nicolle, and i keep saying here is that this makes march 4th more and more and more certain. the best thing that judge

chutkan can do to protect people in the face of these pretrial statements is to get the case resolved. so to the extent that the president and his team have any hope of delaying this trial because of legal issues, everything the president says makes that less and less likely. this trial very, very increasingly looks to me like it's happening on march the 4th of next year. >> betsy, i know there was sort of two tracks of this spin that comes from the trump orbit. this is so good for us, we're raising so much money but then there's the very visible meltdown from trump. i mean, he has a lot of skills, poker face isn't among them, and he's clearly, clearly distressed, distraught, frazzled and diminished by the trial that's ongoing in new york city right now. what is your read on his actual concerns about this trial going forth as tim hafey just said in march? >> there's no question that those concerns are significant and pressing and also that trump

sees his legal future as inextricably linked to his political future. he is campaigning directly in tandem with all of these legal fights playing out and is all but entirely basing his presidential campaign on arguing that voters need to support him because of these legal charges. that these legal battles he's embroiled in are a reason that voters should support him. and it's something that members of his team see thus far as quite helpful in the republican primary and in fact they will point back to the period before these indictments began and then the period afterward to argue that, again, in the republican primary, which is a very different universe from the general election, but in the republican primary that his legal problems have in some ways brought him political benefit. of course, that is likely to change dramatically if, as appears likely, he becomes the republican presidential nominee,

but trump sees his political prospects as the only way or the most likely way to get out of these massive legal tangles that he's involved in and that's why both of those things are so intermeshed and it's also why this gag order is frustrating to him because he wants to be able to talk politically about these legal fights. he wants them to be viewed to the public as two issues that are married and even having a narrowly tailored gag order that sort of stands in the gag there is something that clearly is having significant impact on the way he thinks about how he politically can try to capitalize on these legal problems. >> betsy, andrew and tim, thank you all so much for starting us off today. up next for us as the ex-president continues to juggle his many, many, many court appearances and his campaign stops, a new york sometimes analysis showed up today on how

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>> mike pounce. >> i know words, i have the best words. >> thighland. >> person, woman, man, camera, tv. they say that's amazing. how did you do that? i do it because i have like a good memory, because i'm cognitively there. >> i'm a very stable genius. >> disinfectant knocks it out in a minute, one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that by injection. >> i tested positively toward negative, right? >> guys, that really happened. it can happen again. so he may be in his imagination the most stable of geniuses with all the best words but even with all that going for him he might be better served to remember that a person in a glass house should never do with stones.

listen to how he's mocking president joe biden. >> how many times, by the way, has he been up at a speech where he will say the wrong -- wrong state, right? he will get up, it's great to be in the wonderful state of ohio. sir, sir, you are in florida. >> if he is in pennsylvania it's wonderful to be in the state of delaware. what is wrong with this guy? what's wrong with him? there's something wrong. >> once that happens you might as well leave the stage because it's a disaster no matter how good it is. we're in north carolina. it's great to be in idaho, no, you are in iowa. >> so we will go with it, right, it's really bad when that happens, well, watch what you say because you never know when the tables will turn. here is donald trump over the weekend. >> well, thank you very much and very big hello to a place where we've done very well, sioux falls. thank you very much, sioux falls. >> [ inaudible question ] >> oh, is that right?

>> so sioux city. let me ask you, how many people come -- how many people come from sioux city? >> again, i misspeak, i talk on tv for a job, it's not about that. it's about smearing and insulting your opponent with something you do pretty regularly. joining you are conversation princeton university professor and distinguished political scholar eddie glaude is here and charlie sykes is here. i do not think that donald trump should be president again, but i do not take cheap shots from this chair and that wasn't the attempt. the point is what donald trump and many of his allies are trying to do to president joe biden is to sort of cede concerns about his age by pointing out and amplifying verbal gaffes and we thought as a show that we would try to shine the light on the glass house in which trump lives and that's what that sound was

about. my question for you, charlie, is there is no chance it stops, right? >> no, there's no chance, in fact, one of the interesting things about donald trump is how addicted he is to projection. how many of the things he access his opponents of are actually things that he engages in, but i have to say that with donald trump -- and, by the way, donald trump is going to be in a rich environment for gaffes but the problem is not the gaffes it's the substance. this weekend when he didn't know whether he was in sioux falls or sioux city he's talking about bringing back the muslim ban, he's praising authoritarians, he's talking about deporting people who engage in speech he doesn't like and he continues to -- he continues to talk about, you know, bragging about threatening our allies that he would not defend them against russia. you and i are old enough to remember when that would have been disqualifying for a presidential candidate. telling our nato allies that if they don't pony up a certain

amount of money he would not defend them against vladimir putin. yes, there are going to be lots and lots of gaffes but let's not take our eye off the substance, what he says every single day and i think that there's a certain level of exhaustion. he says things that at one time would have stopped the political world in its tracks. now he's throwing out muslim bans and deportation and talk being violating article v of the nato treaty and it's a collective shrug. i think that's dangerous, too. >> eddie, i want to pull you in. i do think there's a third category, there is the hideousness of the substance that it isn't on the right/left spectrum anymore, it's all cheap lounge act autocracy. there is the sloppiness with which he speaks and the props, but there is the profound ignorance, it's what his former chief of staff john kelly described as, quote, the most damaged human being he had ever seen, it's what bill barr in

something he attacked him over said he was limited in his speech. the people that were closest to him when he was president described it behind the scenes as basically his ignorance. let me show you some of that on display on the campaign trail. this is him talking about one of his favorites, viktor orban. >> viktor orban, did anyone ever hear of him? he's probably like one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world. he is the leader of -- right, he is the leader of turkey. >> you know, there is a very power player viktor orban. he is the head of hungary. hungary fronts on both ukraine and russia. >> so he gets the country right because someone passes him a note or writes him a note card, but then -- and, again, i'm not an expert on all the maps of the world but when you are a former

president and the two countries that you are talking about are at war with one another one brushes up. i mean, i think, eddie, you are good at any pointing this back to us, right? what does it say about us that this is the republican party's front runner? >> right. i think it goes back to what charlie said, nicolle. first of all, it's wonderful to see you. it goes back to what charlie said, whether he is engaged in projection, whether or not we see some cognitive decline, trump's sole purpose is to deliver red meat, to deliver the red meat to the base and to deliver the policies that will satisfy the base. it's not about his cognitive capabilities, it's about his ability to in some ways mobilize grievance and some sense of disaffection on the part of that republican base in order to get what they think they want, the country that they want. there is a collective shrug because it doesn't really matter whether or not he is smart, it

doesn't really matter in the end whether he has the capacity to sit in the oval office, it only matters that he opens the way to what we might consider those grabbing hold of the country who believe that it's under existential threat if that makes sense. >> it makes total sense but how did the country change so quickly, eddie? look at the coalition that president barack obama assembled, right, hope and change was a coalition and a mission statement for almost a permanent governing majority, right, and then the person that comes after him is donald trump. how did the country change so quickly in what it required of its leaders? >> remember -- remember the basic strategy of trump and his minions, right, was that there were more disaffected white voters who did not vote than there were of the other -- on the other side. how does one get those

disaffected white voters to the polls in order to hold off this demographic shift, this permanent majority as it were? well, the only way they could appeal to them is by way of grievance, is which way of the reason why you're so disaffected is because of x, y and z. so that strategy proved itself, right, effective and the republican party understanding that the maps, understanding what was happening on the ground in terms of traditional politics understood that the only way they could win was by two basic paths, one, rig the terms, or two, activate that disaffected base by appeal to grievance and constantly feeding them red meat. that's how it shifted at least to my mind. >> charlie, could it be -- can it be turned off? i mean, can it be -- can it be animated by anything else or does it just have to burn out? >> boy, these are excellent questions, as you know, we've been wrestling with these for years right now.

i mean, one answer to your question, though, is that, you know, yes the country has changed, yes, we're appealing to grievance but also we have a media ecosystem that essentially means that his base is never going to see those clips that you just played. they are going to see a constant loop of joe biden's gaffes but they will never see what you just played. there will be no amplification of his lies, of his gaffes, or the fact that he can't read a map, that he doesn't know what states he's in. so it is the alternative reality that we're in and it's difficult to know how you break that fever if you can't break into those alternative reality silos. so i don't know. the other thing, though, is what's truly extraordinary is the level of tolerance for people who know better, republicans who, in fact, know that this man is deeply damaged, that he's deeply ignorant, that he lacks the fundamental skills and fitness to be in office and yet when it comes to it next fall they will line up behind,

you know, his campaign to put him back in the oval office. i would like to think that there was a time when we actually wanted the president of the united states to not only be a man of honor but to have minimum standards of decency and intelligence, but you would not put someone who was so fundamentally flawed back in office, but this is the world we live in where it is all tribal and in order to remain relevant in the party you have to drop every single standard of behavior, knowledge and intelligence and character just to stay in business. >> i refuse to accept that. i have to sneak in a break but i want to press on what this means our job is because there are lots of folks on right who watch this show all day and live tweet it all day long. i know they see content than over on fox news and right wing media ecosystems. i want to press both of you on what that means our job is for the next 12 months.

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your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire hi, i'm ben and i've lost 60 pounds on golo. (guitar music) matching your job description. with other programs i've tried in the past they were unsustainable, just too restrictive. with golo i can enjoy my food and the fear and guilt of eating is gone. we're back with eddie and charlie. charlie, your point about what his base will and will not see is a profound one. and it extends to the fact that they don't carry his live performances wall to wall anywhere else, right? in '16 we were all guilty of sort of being riveted by -- you drive by a car crash and you

tell everybody in the car don't look and everybody in the car turns and looks. that was the trump 2016 campaign. in this cycle really no one is rubber-necking. and he appears to be in some disheveled verbal state. his ignorance seems to be greater than when he was president, which is amazing. i guess. and his policies are harder -- i won't say farther to the right because he's not ideological. he's just brutal. and brutish. they're more flagrantly autocratic. and to your point, i don't know if anyone knows that. >> no. and that's why one of the real dangers is, political exhaustion is people just throw up their shoulders and say we know this, we know that he's crazy, we know that he's a seditionist, we know he tried to overthrow the government, we're just tired of it. what happened in the house of representatives last week was kind of indicative. every republican went along with

a full-throated election denier. not necessarily because they thought he was the best guy but i think they were just simply exhausted. it was a failure of principle. it was a failure of backbone. but this is how authoritarianism wins. it grinds you down. it numbs you down. it normalizes this kind of behavior. and we are in what, year 8 of having to deal with donald trump's lies, the fact that he isdecompensating, the fact that he is frankly not all there. so you know, i think a lot of people just simply tune this out or they have kind of internalized this as this is who he is. and i think that's kind of our danger, is how do we not become so inured to it that we move on to something else. and i think that's a real challenge for all of us. >> eddie, the great "washington post" had a great slogan for the trump presidency. democracies die in the darkness. it would appear it is also true that democracies die in slow

motion. >> absolutely. absolutely. and part of it has to do with, you know, the business of our lives. the difficulty of putting food on the table, getting our kids through school, getting them through college. people are dealing with the day-to-day difficulties of how to make ends meet. and so these broader political questions come in as entertainment. and they come in as you can turn the show off and turn it on when you want to. you dip in, you dip out. and we're in a moment where you can't dip in and dip out. that democracies require, if they're going to survive, people. right? to hold certain commitments. and to exercise those commitments in efforts to secure democracy itself. so it's a moment of crisis. and how we cover it matters. and part of what that means, at least for me really quickly, nicolle, is that we're going to have to untether our coverage from the traditional crossfire kind of framework. untether our coverage from the traditional political actors of the left and the right and the center where we're constantly

trying to -- preoccupied with what is the reagan democrat going to do? and instead cover the actual crisis of democracy that we're facing. and i don't know how we're going to do that in its details. we've been trying. but we're going to have to try even more desperately given the stakes. >> i know we're going to need both of you to do that. i think that's exactly right. and there's not -- the press isn't neutral in that undertaking because the press doesn't have the same ability to function or exist if we cease to be a democracy. it's a really profound and important point. eddie glaude, thank you. let me ask you really quick, charlie, about mike pence. it's almost a footnote, but he's out. >> yeah, he's out because i think that he at least at some level recognizes that he represents a party that no longer existed. i mean, he represents what the republicans thought they were all about in 2015, and he thought that he could go along with donald trump. he thought that he could, you know, somehow get through all of this. and he gave a speech last month where he said that there was a -- this was a time for

choosing. and the reality is the republican party has already chosen. and they chose donald trump. they didn't chose -- they didn't choose him. and the one unforgivable sin that he made, of course, was to stand up against donald trump's big lie and not help him with his coup. at least not help him with his coup. and from that moment on he was dead on arrival in the republican party, which says a great deal about the republican party these days. >> does he endorse trump? >> i sure as hell hope not. i mean, the man wanted to have his supporters hang him. i mean, there's a point where if donald trump tells his -- is sitting there eating the cheetos and cheering on mobs that want to hang mike pence, mike pence ought to get the message there. right? this is not a guy he can endorse. that would truly be remarkable. but we've seen so many remarkable things. >> i will bet you a box of donuts he in the end endorses his old boss, donald trump, who was indifferent to chants of

"hang mike pence," indifferent slash enthusiastic. eddie glaude and charlie sykes, such an important conversation. thank you both so much for having it with us. still to come for us around here, the civil fraud case against the trump family business continues to roar on in new york city. what the witness stand will look like this week. we'll tell you next. like this wk we'll tell you next.

this puts him out of business. this case is putting him out of business. >> yeah. >> even if -- yeah, absolutely. and that's his -- that's his essence. and i think that he's just -- he's terrified that, you know, he's not going to have the trump tower, he's not going to have all the things that he has bragged about for decades for his 60, you know -- for six decades. it's going to be gone. and he won't be able to run a business. and the question is how much money is he going to be allowed to keep from that? and that to him is -- that's

striking at the core of donald trump. >> striking at the core. hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. of all the cases and all of the legal pileup of mess and vulnerability that donald trump currently faces, it's the civil fraud trial in new york that does something none of the others do. it gets to the heart of who trump thinks he is, what he thinks his essence is all about. donald trump ran his 2016 presidential campaign on the ruse of his stature as a successful businessman. he bragged about dealmaking skills and boasted about real estate holdings and a lavish lifestyle. and he dragged the whole family into it. right? made it a family affair. his kids took on high-level positions at the trump organization. and then he had his two older sons take the wheel when he went to the white house. but that successful businessman veneer was completely shattered forever when judge engoron found

trump and those at his business liable for fraud one month ago now. we have to keep in mind as we cover this trial that the trial under way is not to determine whether fraud was committed. that's been settled. that has been determined. the trial is about figuring out how much money and other stipulations will need to be paid as a consequence of that fraud that has been found. so this week brings that trial to a whole new level. judge engoron announced that the three eldest trump kids and the ex-president himself will be called to testify over the course of this week and next, starting wednesday. we do not know how forthcoming the children or the former president will be on the stand, but we can take a hint from their depositions. last year ia very like father like son way both donald trump and eric trump took the fifth hundreds and hundreds of times. the elder trump invoked the fifth amendment 440 times. eric trump invoked it more than 500. which brings us back to the trial this week and what to

expect. so far 17 witnesses have been heard across 19 days. trump and his former lawyer and fixer michael cohen came face to face for the first time in five years. the ex-president was fined $15,000 for violating not one time but two times the gag order placed on him. at one point he totally freaked out, melted down and angrily stomped out of the courtroom. so what's going to happen next? members of his own family take the stand. we'll be watching. that's where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" investigative reporter sue craig is back with us. also joining us is assistant u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst glenn kirschner with us. at the table for the hour our friend donny deutsch, host of the podcast "on brand." donny, you were sitting there, the table was back there, the year might have been i don't know, 2018 or '19, and you said this was it, that it would be some sort of either rico prosecution or the company that would take him down.

>> i thought they were going to rico the company. the rico's happening somewhere else, the company's going down here. because everybody in new york, if you were in any way connected to business or real estate or commerce -- >> or trump. >> or trump. you know, knew that he was a scam, that whatever was said was exaggerated, lied about, that he -- i always say this. if you went up to his office, it is not what you see in "the apprentice." the boardroom was a set. it's this little beat-up tawdry musty office with 20 or 30 people. it's a licensing company. so this whole braggadocio about him and his great wealth and his great success was so overexaggerated. so -- and i think george conway said it best. you used that word "essence" in the open. his essence is i'm big, i'm strong, i'm successful, i'm powerful. and this just puts a pin in that balloon and it just goes -- >> shrivels, shrinks. goes away. that's why he's so crazy? >> this is getting to him. a normal person -- and we know he's not normal.

would be more afraid of jail time and would be more afraid of what's going on january 6 and what's going on with the documents. but to him this is his being, this is his sense of self, this is his size if you know what i mean, how big he is or how little he is. >> i said this last week. he seems to be trying to snatch jail time from the jaws of civil liability. he may end up in jail in a case that represents no real threat of jail time for him. >> i giend it interesting he's there. >> why is it he's there? >> i think it's what we're talking about. i think he needs to be there -- by the way, a little sidebar. my favorite anecdote of the week i spoke to michael cohen. i asked what happened when you saw him face to face? he goes i winked at him. the cameras unfortunately were not able to catch michael cohen winking at donald trump. that's something i would have paid for. >> me too. sue craig, you brought it to our attention as a show i think first this anger, this seething from trump. tell me if the kids are as triggering as everything that's happened so far.

>> they could be. it's going to be interesting to see them -- we're going to see don jr. up first. and then eric and then ivanka's now going to be mid next week. we have a sense of what they might say because we've either seen their depositions or we've seen pieces of them. and you mentioned at the top that eric took the fifth. he also gave another deposition where he did talk. you know, they're going to be interesting really in different ways and there could be -- i think anytime any of these folks step into a courtroom there's some theater going on. so i expect to see some. but i think eric and ivanka, if i had to pick two, would be the ones to watch. and they're going to be asked just i think all of them at the the outset just about these statements of financial condition we've heard so much about. these were the ones where trump exaggerated his wealth and then submitted them to financial institutions, which is you know, what has got them into trouble. and you're not supposed to do

that. and they're going to be asked what they know about and were they involved in the drafting of it. and then were they -- if not who was. all three of them are going to get that. but i think with eric, you know, eric has been essentially running the company for several years now and i think is the most involved. he has been in court some days with his father. and he's intimately involved in some of the properties that the attorney general is looking at. so i think that's what we can expect from him. i think he is probably going to be on the stand thursday, potentially into friday. that's what they're planning for. and then ivanka is coming in mid next week and she's going to be interesting because she -- you know, she was not named as a defendant in this. the appellate court said she didn't fall in with the statute of limitation issues. but she has potentially really important information. she was an officer of the company for a while and she was involved in two really critical projects that the attorney general's looking at. one is doral, and in a loan that

was arranged with deutch bank she was itched with some of the introductions between the management unit at deutsch bank and the trump organization. what were those conversations? a lot of questions about that loan, any representations about doral. was she involved in them? the same for the old post office. similar questions on that property. so i think if i were to pick the three i think the two eric and ivanka are going to be the most interesting as we head into next week with ivanka. >> have we, sue, heard from either of them since the judge found the trump org liable for fraud? >> we haven't heard from any of them really. we've seen eric in court behind his father. you know, when he's been at the mike and he's been sitting in the courtroom. but we haven't heard publicly from any of them, no. >> so glenn, that's the part of it that i feel will be interesting in terms of the testimony they offer and whether they just take the fifth. i mean, there's this

performative piece that i think tim o'brien and sue have both spoken to of alina habba, tim o'brien said she changed her outfit three times one day in court. i'm not sure that has a legal purpose. i'm assuming it's performative. maybe there was a legal purpose. but to the degree that fraud has already been established and they're figuring out what that means and what the punishment is, i wonder how they act. what are your best guesses? >> nicolle, this is such perilous terrain for these four trump witnesses because as you say, the judge has already found trump liable. he's already ruled against them, concluding that they were involved in sort of massive systemic years-long business fraud, and now these four witnesses are going to be examined and importantly cross-examined on their business practices that it seems the

judge implicitly has concluded some of it involved fraud. the reason i say it's so perilous, and frankly they would be well advised to just plead the fifth. nobody wants to plead the fifth because it's not a good look in the court of public opinion. but even more importantly, people don't like to plead the fifth in the context of a civil case because the finder of fact, ordinarily a jury, can then draw negative inferences from it. they can hold the invocation of their fifth amendment right against self-incrimination against them. but listen, judge engoron has already granted partial summary judgment and it's all about the disgorgement, how much money they're going to have to pay back at this point. so i'm not sure what the up side is other than perhaps a perceived public relations upside. to these four people, don jr., eric, ivana, and donald trump himself, testifying substantively, you know, it seems like their attorneys would advise them, listen, just plead

the fifth and let's get this over with because you can only hurt yourself. if they lie, nicolle, i'm not saying this is a perjury trap because the only thing you have to do to escape from a perjury trap is tell the truth. but maybe there's something more important to donald trump than the truth like his perceived value and wealth. but you know, if they lie under oath, i would not put it past new york attorney general letitia james to charge them criminally with perjury. so it seems to me they have a lot to lose and almost nothing to gain. >> let me show you what trump had to say about taking the fifth. >> you see the mob takes the fifth. if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment? >> the 2019 statement of financial condition contained false and mid-leading valuation sxwz statements, is that correct? >> same answer. >> you knew at the time it was finalized that the year 2019 statement of financial condition

contained false and misleading statements. is that correct? >> same answer. >> it's just a snapshot, glenn, of the split screen that the country and especially his supporters have been subjected to, right? the bravado, the absolute b.s. that he peddles to mostly his base and friendly media from behind a podium and then the diminishing impact of a truth chamber which is the court of law. what do you make of sort of the impact on him? i mean, this is a civil proceeding. but he stands to face two criminal ones in the coming year. >> yeah. you know, the impact on him, it's so interesting that he is there for most of the trial when he doesn't have to be. remember his last civil trial brought against him by e. jean carroll for sexual assault and defamation and frankly e. jean carroll and her lawyers mopped the floor with donald trump and

his lawyers. he didn't appear for a single solitary minute. i guess that case wasn't all that important to him. that case wasn't all that important to him. my goodness. >> someone's calling glenn. we're going to wait through that. go ahead. >> i wish i was not e-incompetent. i wish i knew how to work a -- >> go ahead, pick up. >> my apologies. so apparently, this is important to him. just as donny said, this is all about his image. right? his wealth. his prestige. i think that's why he's there fuming. and you know, it's interesting that he will spend all day shooting these nasty glares at the witnesses and grumbling under his breath and then he walks out into the hallway and tells what i call his hallway lies about what's actually going on in the courtroom. but i for one -- i wish cameras were going to be in the

courtroom because i really look forward to seeing whether he again pleads the fifth or whether he does really the only thing he's capable of doing, which is telling more lies. >> donny, he made his way onto the stand, it was pretty dramatic last week, because of smears and attacks he made against the judge's clerk, after being slapped with a gag order. what is the impact on him if any of his children on the stand? or is like sociopathic -- >> i don't think he's feeling what a normal person would be, that his children are being -- absolutely not. we've talked many times on the show that this is one of the few human beings i know that if there was a bus coming would throw -- would not throw himself in front of the bus to save his children. it's not who he is. i think even with his children, even with his daughter. >> even ivanka? >> even ivanka. i think he's a sociopath, and i think if you look up in the dictionary under the definition of would they throw a bus in front of someone to save their children -- >> okay. sue, with that stipulated, let

me show you some of eric trump, one of the two you said is going to be interesting to watch this week. this is his deposition on the seven springs estate. >> it's extremely inconsistent with what my role is at the company. i just don't -- it's very kind of clear that to the best of my knowledge i really haven't been involved in appraisal work on this property. >> well, are you saying that this engagement could have happened without your knowledge and approval? >> i'm just saying i don't remember this. i'm not on here. i never signed this document. >> he goes on to say, sue, "i don't recall this.

i pour concrete. i manage properties. i don't focus on appraisals. it's just not what i do in my day-to-day responsibilities." obviously, the judge has already found the company liable for fraud. what kind of witness is eric trump? >> i think he's going to be -- for the attorney general, i mean, they're being called as sort of hostile witnesses. i don't -- it's interesting, i read through the depositions today, i read through some of don jr.'s. i think we're going to hear a lot of "i don't remember" and then a lot of pushback potentially about that. i mean, these are three individuals who are high executives at the company after their father left the company to go to the white house they got pay raises, you know, they're making each of them at the time were making a few million, $2 million a year roughly. i mean, they should be in on this. i don't think eric trump was out pouring concrete. i mean, the last time they had a

new project was 2008. so -- and in terms of a full construction project. i mean, they've done some rehabs and stuff like that since. but he shouldn't be pouring concrete if he's making that much money. so what was he doing? and i think he's going to get a lot of pushback on the statements that he doesn't remember. they said it so many times. eric's full deposition is, you know -- is out there. i've read it. it was amazing how many times he said he just couldn't remember. and these are properties like seven springs is one, he was intimately involved with. he lived there for a time. he has a long history with it. you know, i think the judge may find it hard to believe that he doesn't remember. >> sue, in reading through all their depos, is it your sense they're more concerned about the consequence, the disgorgement, the punitive aspect of the trial or that they're more concerned about their father? >> i don't think i walk away with either of those conclusion

on those points from reading the deposition. but i think you have to think they're concerned about the company just, you know, having watched all this for the last several weeks and having been following it now for a few years. i mean, this is really -- it is really serious stuff. we've said it before. we talked about it. we've been talking about it just now. how serious this is. the attorney general's looking for a $250 million fine. she's put a receiver over the business. and that means -- the receiver is there to make sure that these businesses continued to operate so that if needed they can be liquidated and be worth something to be sold to pay that fine. like it's a lot of money. and in new york, you know, he's looking at losing potentially -- it's important to note he doesn't own all of trump tower but he owns the commercial space. it's valuable. that he may lose that. there's other things in new york he may lose. and this will affect his other businesses around the country which are, just so people know,

primarily golf and resort-related. he's got a hotel condo tower in chicago. but most of it is sort of resort-related and hotels around the country. but it's a very meaningful fine for them and we're probably going to see asset sales so they can pay it. >> it's just amazing. sue craig, thank you so much for your continued reporting on this story. we'll call on you all week long. glenn and donny stick around a little bit longer. when we come back, the effort to bar the twice impeached, four times indicted disgraced ex-president from appearing on ballots all because he led an insurrection aimed at overturning an election he clearly did not win. a trial on that very matter is under way today, right now, in the key battleground state of colorado. we'll have the latest on that effort after a short break. plus we'll have a live report from the israel-gaza border. israeli defense forces have freed one hostage. as they continue to strike targets in the gaza strip by air and by land. and amid a rise in anti-semitic

threats and attacks in schools and college campuses right here in this country and in this state and in this city, what president joe biden did today to confront that disturbing and dangerous trend. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. e to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some. it can stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq

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today an historic and unprecedented trial is under way in denver, colorado of the twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president donald j. trump. it is a civil trial that aims to answer the question does our constitution ban donald trump from being on the presidential ballot in 2024 for his role in

the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol? it is an argument we've discussed and covered on this program before and which comes from the 14th amendment, which was adopted after the civil war. the "washington post"ris this -- "the amendment's lesser thrown section 3 state that people cannot hold office if they have previously taken an oath to support the constitution and then engage in an insurrection." quote, it was adopted to prevent former confederate soldiers from gaining office and using their authority to undermine reconstruction. until now it has been little considered since that era. the suit was brought by colorado voters, and today the plaintiffs and the defense gave their opening statements. they called the first witnesses including washington, d.c. police officer daniel hodges, who defended the united states capitol on january 6th. joining our conversation, senior opinion columnist of the globe" and msnbc political analyst kimberly atkins stohr. glenn and donny are still with

us. kim, i've had judge luttig on, who has really laid out in a public way the legal architecture for this. he describes it as i think self-effecting. thinks it's pretty cut and dry. obviously, nothing when it comes to donald trump is cut and dry. what do you think of this trial today? >> yeah. and very little about our constitution, nicolle, is cut and dry, either. you're honing in on one of the many legal questions that come from the use of this amendment in this way. one of them is whether it is self-executing or whether it requires something else, an act of congress, some sort of conviction for insurrection, before that comes into play. this is an important question when you just think logistically about how this works. if somebody wants to challenge somebody's qualification on a

ballot, usually the person who puts you on the ballot is a town clerk or a state election worker or a county election worker. what you'd essentially be doing would be asking them to do some constitutional construction, read the constitution and decide in their view whether what the candidate did constituted an insurrection. you can see how logistically that could be problematic. that's one of my concerns here. i agree with judge luttig that the 14th amendment is clear and in the plain reading of the word "insurrection" that was something that donald trump engaged in. if he didn't engage in an insurrection, he certainly gave comfort to those who did, which is always disqualifying under this. but i think without a clear rule that has been set down by a court, the supreme court, i think you run another risk. and i am loath to ever agree with anything that donald trump's attorneys or his side says. but i think in this case they have a point with the argument that it could be very damaging

to democracy if it is seen that this election is decided by the u.s. supreme court as opposed to by the vote of the people. so there's a lot at stake here. i know there are a lot of people who would just say just kick him off the ballot, he doesn't deserve to be there. but there are a lot of other factors and values and concerns at play. >> do you think it ends up in the supreme court, kim? >> yes. >> and what do you think -- how do you think they rule on it? >> well, that's the question, right? i think if this case goes all the way to the supreme court another big question that has been brought up and debated in academic circles is whether -- so this section applies to officers of the united states. there are some including steven calabrese, very respected legal scholar, who believes that that does not apply to the presidency, that would apply to members of congress and other federal office holders but not the president. i am very fearful of a u.s.

supreme court decision that hangs their hat on that and says that the president -- the 14th amendment's disqualification clause does not apply to a president. i think that would be incredibly destructive to our democracy. and that's why i'm concerned. i'm watching all of these hearings with, you know, one eye closed, nicolle, because these are big stakes and a ruling in the wrong direction could be disastrous. >> glenn, to the untrained legal mind it sounds like what lawyers, like judges like judge luttig are saying is if you were part of an insurrection you can't be the president. it sounds much more complicated than that, though, now that it's in a legal arena. what's why you are take on where things go from here? >> first of all, i agree with kim. it would be extraordinarily damaging to our country if the supreme court were to conclude that every insurrectionist is disqualified from holding public

office in the future except the president, he gets to engage in insurrection and then retake the reins of government. that falls under the weight of its own frivolity, and i do not think the supreme court will go there. and if i could go cynical for a moment, nicolle, i don't think the block of six justices would be willing to do much of anything to enable an aspiring dictator to return to the oval office not because i have confidence in the judgment of the bloc of six on the supreme court but because i think they recognize that if they do anything to enable a dictator to take the reins of our federal government you know the one thing a dictator has no time of day for, has no interest in? a supreme court. and i think donald trump would find a very way very quickly to

marginalize the power of the supreme court. but you know, going back to the more fundamental question, i think the constitution is crystal clear that insurrectionists cannot hold public office after they took an oath to support the constitution. the only open question is how do we implement it? and it sure seems like one way to implement it is precisely what's going on in colorado. you have a judge who's going to hear and is already hearing evidence from the likes of american hero daniel hodges, who defended the capitol that day. and he is hearing evidence that donald trump recruited the insurrectionists, telling the proud boys to stand by. he set the date for the insurrection, come to d.c. on january 6th. "will be wild." he deployed the insurrectionists. he ordered the attack, telling them to fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore. now go to the capitol and stop the certification. he used the word "steal."

he then assisted the insurrection as it was ongoing by refusing to call it off as cassidy hutchinson famously testified to, albeit she was repeating what mark meadows was told by the president, he doesn't think the angry mob is wrong, he thinks mike pence deserves it. and then he gave aid and comfort, love and pardons or pledges of pardons to the insurrectionists, "you're wonderful people, we love you." and he has pledged to pardon the insurrectionists. you know what, nicolle? the insurrection runs through it. from at least december 19th, when he set the date and he tweeted it out, until whatever today is, october 30th, and the last time he pledged pardons to the insurrectionists. i don't see how a judge who is an honest broker of the facts and the law can conclude anything but donald trump incited, engaged in, assisted

and gave aid and comfort to the insurrection. >> we'll keep watching with your help. kim atkins stohr and glenn kirschner, thank you both so much for helping us through this one. shifting gears a bit, we will go to the israel-gaza border. today the israeli military rescued a hostage, a soldier, this as the extended ground operation continues there. we'll get a live report after a very short break. stay with us. t after a very short break stay with us sts. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help.

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there's some new images coming in today that show israel's expanding ground invasion in what prime minister benjamin netanyahu warns will be a long and difficult war with hamas. but today for the first time israeli forces say they've succeeded in freeing a soldierish, who was kidnapped by hamas terrorists on october 7th. private ori megidish is safe and sound and has met with her family. her release comes as israel faces growing pressure to rescue the nearly 240 other hostages who are still being held by has more than two weeks after that terror attack. nbc news reports that talks to release them stalled on friday when hamas demanded that israel allow fuel deliveries into gaza. this morning images showing gaza's skyline shrouded in dust and smoke where israel's military says the ground shook from its tanks and infantry pushing deeper into gaza and that it's received instructions to, quote, continue until further notice. inside gaza the civilian death toll is climbing.

where survivors sif tough the rubble for survivors and more food and medical supplies arrived today to aid the increasingly dire humanitarian crisis. communities still severely short on food and water and fuel. joining us, nbc news correspondent ellison barber at the israel-gaza border. ellison, what are you seeing there today? >> reporter: nicolle, we have been watching for well over an hour just pockets of kind of targeted areas, at least two pockets where we are seeing just what feels like a constant cycle of rockets firing into northern gaza. i'll let you keep watching with us as we talk here so that you can see what we're seeing. but we're hearing a lot less artillery fire tonight but seeing a lot of rockets headed into the northern part of gaza here. we have seen a couple coming out of gaza headed toward the direction of israeli cities. there has been this big question amongst families of hostages.

according to the idf, you see some of that coming in through the sky right up there. some of it will dissipate, disappear. others you'll usually see it first, seeing the flash of lights and then you'll hear the booms. and it's far enough away from us that right now it's sounding a lot like rolling thunder. but you see all of that falling into gaza there. the families of the hostages still inside of gaza. and according to the idf, there are 238 of them. they have started to really question this expansion of the war, particularly the ground invasion. there comes more stuff headed into gaza now. making the argument that it puts their loved ones at risk. some of what the idf has said they have been targeting are the entrances to hamas's tunnel systems underneath gaza, the same place that idf has said they believe hostages are being held. and we've heard more and more families making calls, making pleas to the israeli government, the israeli military to instead do some sort of exchange, to release the 4,000-plus palestinians currently being held in israeli jails and then

have hamas release all of the hostages at once. tonight in his speech to israeli citizens prime minister benjamin netanyahu was asked about that type of possibility. he said he wouldn't get into details about any sort of possible negotiations or talks going on behind the scenes, but he said he believes that this sort of ground offensive is pushing pressure -- is putting pressure on hamas and that ultimately that is the only way he says for them to get their hostages back. he says it creates a possibility, not the certainty but the possibility that hamas will agree to release those hostages because he says they will only respond to force. we have seen, as you mentioned, in the last 24 hours the idf and israeli special forces saying that through their efforts inside of gaza they were able to recover one person who was taken hostage on october 7th. that military private. they say she is now back with her family. inside of gaza. and the thing we have to remember is every time we hear

those booms how many civilians could be impacted. hearing some artillery in the distance here. israel has said that about 1 million people have evacuated from northern gaza. they were saying 90% of the population in northern gaza have evacuated south. but we have still seen southern gaza, places like khan younis, be hit by israeli airstrikes. israel has said there is a pocket of land near the ocean in the southwest corner of gaza, al mawasa, and they say that's a humanitarian corridor for people to go to. but nicolle, it's incredibly small. that area is about a mile wide, a little less than a mile, and about nine miles long. we're talking about millions of civilians. 2.2, 2.3 million being forced to flee. there's no way they can all fit in that area. and a lot of them have said traveling to any sort of, quote unquote, humanitarian area is incredibly difficult because they feel like nowhere is actually safe. and we have seen just this constant escalation since israel announced that their forces had embarked and pushed into

northwest gaza. this has been four days now where every night as we're on the border we hear that artillery in the distance, we see rockets going in to this part of northern gaza, and we see some of them firing back out. last night israel said that at least one soldier as well as an officer were severely injured in mortar fire during the fighting. hamas has said that there have been multiple clashes. they describe them as violent clashes in the northwest pocket of gaza. israel says all of those international calls, those discussions about a ceasefire, it's not something they're willing to consider because according to prime minister netanyahu he says that would mean surrendering to hamas and he says that is not something they're willing to do. nicolle? >> a terror attack makes strange bedfellows. former secretary of state hillary clinton basically said the same thing in an interview with norah o'donnell yesterday. ellison thank you, for your extraordinary reporting. please stay safe, my friend. when we return, we'll turn to the disturbing rise in anti-semitism on college campuses right here all across

our country. what the biden administration did today to confront the growing and scary threat to jewish americans. that's after a short break. stay with us. mericans that's after a short break stay with us . i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today.

with my own eyes i have witnessed columbia students resort to base bigotry. i've seen them parrot foul antisemitic tropes. i've seen them label visibly muslim students as terrorists. i've seen them roar in approval for calls of violence against

civilians. i've seen them take to social media nearly every day of the last three weeks to call for each other's deaths. institutionally, i feel abandoned. the university's inaction has made us question whether columbia university can actually maintain an environment where all students feel welcome and safe on campus. >> wow. now students at columbia university are demanding that the school do more to address antisemitism and other forms of bigotry on their campus amid a chilling rise in antisemitic and islamophobic incidents she onset of the israel-hamas war and the terror attac o october 7th. over the weekend cornell university posted guards around the campus's center for jewish living after threats were posted online toward cornell's jewish students. the posts, which appeared on online discussion forum about fraternities, included threats to shoot jewish students and encouragement to other people to

kill them brutally. response to this disgusting rise of hate on college campuses and in schools the biden administration has launched a new initiative to address antisemitism on college campuses with the departments of justice and homeland security partnering with campus law enforcement to track hate-related rhetoric online and to provide federal resources to schools. we're back with donny. i know since the earliest days of the terror attack the rhetoric on college campuses is something you've kept an eye on. >> yeah. >> we have sort of an effect of the silence, right? i think there is sort of the ecosystems on college campuses and that's one thing to address and to talk about but there's also this deafening silence in other pockets of influence and cultural prominence and business prominence that seems to be at least tangentially relate to the permission structure. >> it's not just silence. i'm confused about this. i'm going to get to this in a second. is that israel seems to be on

trial. which i don't understand. that israel -- people are saying ceasefire. and of course none of us want vooinlt violence. but there was a ceasefire on october 6th. and since that time we know what happened october 7th. beheading. raping. every inhumane thing that you can do. ripping babies out of mother's wombs. and since then -- >> 8 1/2 hours of sustained violence against a civilian population. >> by a group whose only mission is not real estate and it's not protecting palestinian people. they put their own people in harm's way. they use them as shields. they've stolen billions of dollars of aid from -- urnt aid from them. their only mission is to eliminate israel, eliminate all jews. that's it. that's their mission. and yet constantly israel seems to be on the defensive about explaining what they're -- obviously israel has to be very careful and it's got to do things surgically. but no other group goes through

this scrutiny. joe scarborough, our dear friend, had an amazing talk the other morning where he said can you imagine if mexico came in and mexico had just -- did the same thing to us. would people be saying restraint, restraint? and i also wonder, and this is going to bring me back to college campuses. all the pro-palestinian. where were the pro-palestinian chants when palestinians have been oppressed in other areas? is this pro palestinian or is it simply anti-jewish and anti-israel? which comes back to the campus. and it's happened after jews were attacked it's elevated. and i need to reat r. read the things because it's not just rhetoric. this is what was cornell bulletin board last night. if you see a jewish person on campus, follow him home and slit their throats. rats need to be eliminated from cornell. another one. if you see another jew on campus, if you see a pig male jew, i will see you, and if i

see a pig female je with, i will throw you off a cliff. why israel is in a defensive position after being attacked because it's about anti-semitism and it's about the hate towards jews that is now surfacing in this country. >> so i have school-aged child. he's learning about the holocaust, and i think the holocaust is taught as a part of this commitment that it should never happen again and it usually elicits questions and it usually makes people ask, especially young people. how did this happen? how did people not do anything? i think you have this tangible illustration of how this happened. >> it is so heartbreaking. i have all -- every je with, i know is calling me and terrified for the first time in their life being jewish. they feel it. when you are a generation away from the holocaust, from the annihilation of 6 million jews, there's something that goes from generation to generation and

people are feeling something in their stomachs in this country they've never felt before, and they're terrified and just on the way here. somebody sent me a swastika that was drawn on a candy store in a shop in montauk. it's every day and everywhere. columbia just came out and there are a hundred faculty members endorsed students who said the militants had the right to do what they did. they're not even calling them terrorists. they're called militants. for some reason evil is not graded the same way when it's against jews and against israel. i don't understand it. actually, i do understand it. >> what is it? >> anti-semitism that jews as a group, as a minority, there would be 250 million without the holocaust, for some reason since the beginning of time and i'm actually getting upset, it's somehow okay to go after these people in a way that no other people -- i am not a history student. i just know the history. >> we talk a lot about silence

is complicit in the politics to call out someone who isn't just to the right, but lurching toward autocratic tools and tool kits. in some ways the silence is more shocking to the system. >> it's not just silence. it's the marching for hamas. marching for terrorists and it's endorsed and university presidents have a hard time coming out and saying that's wrong. there are two truths at once. you can have empathy for the palestinian people's plight and also unequivocally say slaughtering and beheading and burning baby, beheading. this is not humanity and yet there's this stance, this thing where i don't understand why absolute evil -- >> well, let me pull back. everyone's struggling, right? because i think there is a feeling that -- i -- the influence u.s. policy and u.s.

foreign policy, tony blinken saw them on his trip. the israeli government released the photos. i will never unsee the photos and i've had nightmares about the photos since i saw them. there are a couple of levels and there's the horror of that and there's also what you're talking about. there's such an anti-israeli bias because their domestic politics under netanyahu -- >> netanyahu still needs to go, by the way. >> and u.s. foreign policy experts think he may not be there, but there is this real bias against the plight of israel even in the wake of 1400 primarily civilians being slaughtered over an eight and a half hour period, mutilated, slaughtered, raped in front of their husbands. >> explaining every move they make. obviously, like any human, we want to do everything to protect every life, but they're in a war, and innocent civilians are

going to be hurt, just like innocent germans were hurt, but you have to take out nazis and you have to take out isis. you can't live next door to people whose entire mission is to annihilate you and destroy you and people in this country are cheering, and the media is just kind of tippy towing around it. >> people are scared. people are scared of being canceled. >> you can cancel me. cancel me, all right? >> i'm just saying there is a climate where -- i haven't touched the college campus stories going on three weeks. there is a chill. i'll just say it. there's a chill. why is that? >> because people feel hatred and they see it and the chill is why are people not talking about it? that's a question for scholars over time. >> no, it's not because we all have to answer it. >> i'll tell you what the answer is. the jews are treated different from other group, that there is a dislike, that there is somehow that jews being hurt or being slaughtered is different from other people being hurt and

somehow they have it coming to them. there, i said it. that's what this is about. >> i am sorry that i pressed you. >> i'm glad you did. >> until it's all out there. >> i don't know why "the new york times" and cnn who are so quick to blame israel -- and you know what the source was? hamas. they're getting their information from hamas, and i don't know why the media just can't lay things out evenly. nobody's asking you to side with either side, just report it fairly, report it honestly and report one group that is pure evil and the other group, like us, israel is a civilized -- they're very imperfect just like we are, but they're a civilized, human, value-driven democracy. >> every mother of a hostage they interviewed said i'm not political. i want to live in peace next to my neighbors. they didn't have political agenda. >> israelis want to live in peace. hamas doesn't. hamas is not fighting for peace. they're fighting for death. they don't want peace for their own people.

this is so black and white stuff. there are no gray areas here and the media is, like -- ooh. >> not anymore. not here. thank you. i think you gave voice to something that i've heard a lot in the last three weeks. thank you very much. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors we'll be right back. ckable trea. with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ahh, -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein 30 grams protein, one gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients for immune health. (♪♪) at humana, we believe your

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we're really grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> welcome to the beat, everyone. i'm ari melber. we are tracking several