little kids, and believe me there's always humor and humility involved there with little kids. yes, even presidents. as we get closer, i will share more details about plans for the tour, and the book. but for now, you can preorder it wherever books are sold. i certainly hope you do. that does it for me tonight. we will be back here next sunday at noon eastern, but stay right where you are, because alex wagner tonight starts right now. hi, alex. >> i think this is the first time we have had a hand over, my friend? >> i know. i know, little do people know how much we chat about all of these things. work, politics, trump, life -- >> i have to say, jen, i'm excited for the book. it sounds like it is one part m excited for the maybe a smaller part juicy tell-all, one part how-to, and one part parenting guide. and in this day and age, it's not often you get a book that is all of those things written by such a compelling and wonderful

person. >> well, thank you. there is also a lot of things of mistakes i have made in my career, things that scared me that i took the leap on. you have experienced many of those before as well.re we have talked about them. >> i experience them daily, jen. >> me, too. >> i hope the book can come in pocket size so i can carry it iz with me throughout the day.ro >> you'll get the first copy, i promise. >> i love you. thank you. good luck.k. >> have a great show. >> thank you.ea thanks to you at home for joining us. the great rachel maddow is ch obviously not here now. she's healing up after a round of covid, and we hope she will n be back here at her usual time e next monday because we all need you, rachel.he feel better. now, tonight, we start in gaza. where the israeli military is deep into what it is calling the second stage of its war with hamas. israeli soldiers and tanks are slowly advancing deeper into

gaza. "the new york times" and "the washington post" are reporting r this evening that the israeli military has now reached the ng outskirts of gaza city. it remains unclear if these movements are the much anticipated ground invasion or a preview of that invasion or t whether israel may yet decide against a full-scale invasion. the biden administration for its part is reportedly urging israel not to invade an occupied gaza.v but in a rare news conference earlier, prime minister e ri netanyahu made clear that his country's operations and military operations will continue. casting the fight against hamas as a battle between good and be evil. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engle is on the israeli/gaza border and n filed this report tonight. >> reporter: israeli prime minister netanyahu under fire for not taking responsibility te for being unprepared for hamas'

surprise attack, says there will be no cease-fire, that israel must retaliate for the 1,400 israelis killed.le >> just as the united states t would not agree to a cease-fireg after the bombing of pearl harbor or after the terrorist af attack of 9/11, israel will noto agree to a cessation of es hostilities with hamas after the horrific attacks of october 7th. this is a time for war. >> reporter: in gaza, more than 2 million civilians are suffering because of a war they didn't start, can't escape, and which is escalated by the day. according to the health ministry run by hamas, more than 8,000 as palestinians have been killed so far. hospitals have become refugee ve centers for the newly homeless. they destroyed our house on top of us, this man screams. israel says there's a safe haven in the south. but it's bombing in southern om gaza too. >> from southern gaza, we hear on this show have heard from abud, an american trapped there

with his wife and year-old son. they were visiting his wife's if parents in gaza when the war vi broke out. these two photos were taken in h gaza in the days before the october 7th hamas attack on israel. he tells us his family is now sheltering with 40 other people, including ten americans in a small house as israeli bombs drop nearby.us the filtration plant where they have been lining up for water each day has run out of fuel because israel will not allow ra fuel into gaza. hamas reportedly has stockpilesd including fuel, food, and water. they have had no water since yesterday and at this point he doesn't know when or if his family and other americans o trapped in gaza will be able to get out. that is the situation for the millions still trapped in gaza. as to the hostages who remain ig the region, hamas today released a video featuring three female hostages still being held hostage. one woman in the video criticized netanyahu's

management of the crisis and the prime minister later called the video cruel propaganda. there was, however, one piece of good news on this front today.on israel announced it had rescued an israeli ori megidish. israel says that still leaves o nearly 240 hostages held in gaza. meanwhile, hanging over all of h this are a lot of uncomfortable questions about the israeli ou government itself and its leader, prime minister benjamin netanyahu. those questions are laid out in a deeply reported piece by "new york times" reporters, titled how years of israeli failures on hamas led to a devastating attack. the most powerful military force in the middle east had not only completely underestimated the magnitude of the attack, it hadd

totally failed in its intelligence gathering efforts, mostly due to hubris and the mistaken assumption that hamas was a threat contained. overall, arrogance among israeli political and security officials convinced them that the country's military and technological superiority to hamas would keep the terrorist group in check. and even now, three weeks into this war, it is not clear that israel's leader has figured out how to talk to his country about how and why israel's vaunted sense of invincibility has shattered. at 1:00 a.m. sunday in israel after his office was asked for comment on this article, he posted a message on x, formerly twitter, that repeated remarks he made to "the new york times." and blamed the military and intelligence services for failing to provide him with any warning on hamas. the blowback to the prime minister's blame shifting was so swift and overwhelming that he deleted that post and subsequently apologized. something basically unheard of for the hard-charging prime

minister. joining me now is mark mazzetti, a washington investigative correspondent for "the new york times." mark, thank you for being here. i found this account deeply distressing but also riveting. it sounds like there was a cascade of failures that led to october 7th. and i'm sure you have thoughts of which was the most sizable, but one of the ones that stuck out to me was the idea that the israeli defense forces stopped monitoring hamas radio traffic. and that at the outset of this attack, nobody thought it was serious enough to wake the prime minister. can you talk a little bit aboutk the decisions that led to the stoppage effectively of monitoring important methods ofi communications for this attack in particular? >> sure. so what we found is that this is not just a matter of if there was one warning they could havea heeded in the weeks or days

before the attack. maybe it could have been headed off. in fact, it was a series of bad decisions over the years that basically came down to the conclusion that hamas was not capable of attacking israel, that hamas was not interested in attacking israel, and therefore, the israeli security resources should be devoted elsewhere. they should be devoted toward particularly iran, hezbollah, but hamas was not considered a serious threat.s when you bring up the fact they were not listening to radio is traffic, that was just one example of well, this was radio communication of low-level hamas fighters. what's the purpose? what good would it do them, the thought, to monitor this traffic. again, this belief was that hamas was deterred and hamas was not interested in attacking. it was all sort of this mosaic of bad decision making that led to the attacks on october 7th.

>> it sounds like israel disregarded the good intelligence they did have. i mean, the warnings that were issued internally or even externally from countries like jordan effectively went ignored. is that right? >> yes, that's right. the jordanians were warning, and even israeli generals for months were going to political leaders and making a broader point. they were saying that the political agenda that benjamin netanyahu was pursuing, which was this what they call judicial reform, was in fact seizing ha power from the judiciary, which was creating mass protests in ti israel. the assessment of the intelligence community is this was weakening the country and emboldening israel's enemies.g they were warning there might be an attack coming, and mr. netanyahu ignored and in fact in our story, we pointed out he refused to meet a senior general in july who wanted to deliver that warning. the generals themselves didn't s quite get the exact attack right.

they thought something was coming, but they didn't think i was going to be from hamas, from gaza. it really was a case where there was blame all around for not really understanding the big picture. >> and then there is this sort of role that hamas was playing in netanyahu's broader struggles with the palestinian authority. can you talk about that dynamic and how it factored into this attack? >> sure. well, so netanyahu has for years talked tough about hamas, how they're going to wipe out hamas. remember, hamas has been effectively governing the gaza strip for more than a decade. and in that vein, actually netanyahu government over the years in fact pursued a policy of propping up hamas, sort of counterbalancing the palestiniai authority in the west bank with money to hamas. the strategy was in effect to kind of divide and conquer. if you prop up hamas it weakens the palestinian authority and it gave netanyahu this sort of case to say listen, i have no

credible partners here. therefore, they sort of slow ar rolled the peace process. so that is now pretty well documented that despite the rhetoric, netanyahu over the years and ministers in israel empowered hamas by giving them a lot of money. that's part of the picture as well. >> i think you're right to call it a mosaic of failures because the errors were omnidirectional. how has netanyahu managed the moment and effectively communicating with the israeli public about this cascade of failures? we mentioned he deleted that tweet that absolved himself of any failures. how is he dealing with it now? what is the domestic political landscape look like for him in the context of these attacks? >> it was quite strange over the weekend when we were finishing up the story. we put questions to his office, the prime minister's office, about what we were going to report.

he responded with that response that he then tweeted out. and then the next day, it created this controversy, this really firestorm of people saying he was passing the buck. he deleted the tweet. but we still had his statement. and that was sort of showing that he was not ready to accept blame. several senior israeli intelligence officials, military officials and others, have said effectively, you know, we were to blame. we will resign when this is si over, but we're going to fight this war first. netanyahu hadn't done that. what we saw today with the press conference was a little bit of in essence a move at damage control, but you know, clearly, netanyahu is fighting for his political life as a result of this. >> mark, it's a really, really important story, especially an right now. thank you for joining me tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you. now let's turn to democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut.cht. a member of the armed services committee who recently returned from a trip to the middle east.

senator blumenthal, thanks for joining me this evening. i know you were part of a bipartisan delegation of ten el senators who went to israel, saudi arabia, and egypt. could you give us a sense of what regional partners are saying about this conflict as w sit now in day 24?ut >> alex, this trip was really deeply emotional and moving.mo i have family as well as friends in israel. a cousin who is in the idf at the front, and many of us in america have friends and family who are affected, and the message we brought to israel is one of solidarity. israel has a right to defend itself against hamas, a terrorist organization that has as its single-minded goal to destroy israel and annihilate the jewish people. and in the region, there is no love for hamas, just the opposite. the nations of the region know that hamas is a force for

instability and conflict. they want stability and peace because they want their st economies to prosper. so i think a glimmer of hope that the saudis see a future here in continuing the talks toward normalizing relations ma with israel, not right away, but once this conflict is concluded, and the egyptians likewise, we p visited there as well, would like to see the conflict contained. i think deterring iran from opening another front through its proxy hezbollah has to be one of the administration's major goals and to his credit, president biden is making it a priority. >> i'm curious about your statement that regional -- arab regional partners have no love for hamas. what have the civilians in gaza, there are varying estimates, but up to 8,000 people killed, a third of them children. is that a concern for regional states near israel? >> absolutely, it is a concern for them. it a concern for anyone with a sense of decency. israel has to defend itself, and we emphasize to israel it has to

provide more humanitarian relief in food, fuel, water.ue try to contain the conflict, ta minimize civilian casualties. provide safe corridors for americans to escape. and as a priority, to enable hostages to be freed. that's why the president to his credit is asking for a humanitarian pause so they and our government all have a concern about providing more humanitarian relief, and frankly, the israelis can do it, and they're moving toward doing it. >> "the washington post" has some reporting this evening about the biden administration being very concerned about israel's movements, its ov deployment of soldiers and the bombing campaign in gaza, and that behind the scenes the administration has been urging israel to take more precautionary measures.

has that been communicated to you? if not, what do you think about the biden administration's apparent evolution on this conflict in particular? >> i have been in touch with the administration, the white house, diplomats who represent our government abroad, and all believe that the israeli military has to be extremely careful about its tactics here and avoid repeating quite honestly the mistakes we made in afghanistan and iraq, where there were a lot of civilian casualties that in fact fueled the rise of other terrorist groups when innocent civilians are killed, it is likely to simply create more adolescents who tend toward terrorism and create difficulties in the future. so i think the administration is advising as a friend, providing that kind of advice about the options that will minimize

civilian casualties, provide more humanitarian relief, and deter iran, which is the reason why we have sent two aircraft carriers and other assets to the region, so that it will not give the green light to hezbollah on the northern front as it did to hamas on the south. >> yeah, there is a lot of concern about this spilling into a regional conflict. senator blumenthal, we would love to have you back. we have to leave it there.ve thanks for your thoughts y tonight. >> thank you. coming up, mike pence drops out of the presidential race. while a ring leader of the effort to overturn the 2020 election now sits in the er speaker's chair. s what it takes to make it in today's gop. but first, after he was given a gag order in his january 6th case, trump today went after the judge and a possible witness and joe biden.de again, that is after the gag order.t the latest on trump's legal o jeopardy is next.

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on sunday, the federal judge overseeing the case surrounding trump's efforts to overturn the

2020 election, judge tanya chutkan, she reinstated a gag order on mr. trump. she first issued a limited gag order two weeks ago today on october 16th. but she paused the gag order at the request of trump's lawyers who are in the process of appealing it. and then there was a nine-day pause in which the special counsel's team later argued that trump wasted no time in attacking federal prosecutors and potential key witnesses including his former chief of staff, mark meadows. with yesterday's ruling, the former president is now barred again from making any remarks targeting witnesses, prosecutors, or court staff. to be clear, this gag order is separate and apart from the one imposed in his new york civil fraud case in which trump has been fined $15,000 for violating it not once but twice. maybe it's a pattern. because after judge chutkan imposed the gag order today, trump again went on the attack.

going after former attorney general bill barr, a potential key witness in this case. he called the judge a, quote, trump hater, and he threatened president biden with payback. almost all of which might be a violation of said gag order. with gag orders like this, who needs gag orders? joining me now is joyce vance, former district attorney for the northern district of alabama. thank you for being here. please help me understand whether we are barreling towards a stress test of bail conditions. are judges going to have to take up in earnest the question of whether they need to jail a former president ahead of a trial? >> so i think as reluctant as the judges will be to do anything that would like like interference in the election, ultimately, donald trump seems intent on pushing these buttons. he's had a lot of opportunity to walk it back, instead, he continues to advance his

conduct. for instance, alex, just leaving some of these earlier posts, the post about mark meadows, which the last time i looked at truth social was still up and had not been taken down. that would be a violation of the gag order at this point. so trump is not going to make life easy for any of the judges here. >> today, the doj announced they were indicting a alabama man for transmitting interstate threats. he had left threatening phone messages for d.a. fani willis. do you think the doj is trying to convey its seriousness in terms of threatening behavior in and around this case, and is that a subtle message to donald trump? >> i don't think that there's anything subtle about it. doj has always taken an aggressive stance about protecting witness safety in every case. this is the sort of issue, and i can tell you on the handful of cases that i was involved in where there were threats to witnesses, people in a u.s. attorney's office drop everything, they put their heads together, they figure out how to

protect the witness, whether they need to go back into court. these matters are taken very seriously, so the u.s. attorney in atlanta took a look at this threat, went ahead and indicted the case very quickly. will pursue it very vigorously. donald trump needs to understand that there is a line that you cannot cross over here, and that he has become perilously close to it. >> the other trumps will be talking in court next week. i believe -- sorry, this week, on wednesday, donald trump jr. will be testifying in the new york civil case brought by a.g. letitia james. on thursday, eric trump testifies. next monday, donald trump himself, and next wednesday, ivanka trump, who was originally scheduled for this friday. joyce, what is your expectation with these trumps? are they going to be pleading the fifth as they have in previous depositions or could they actually testify with some material information that would be useful to the a.g.?

>> so they'll have an interesting decision point here, because they're being called by letitia james as part of her case in chief. the case the government is putting on to justify the award of damages in essence that it is seeking from trump and the trump organization. if they're not forthcoming in their testimony, you know, when you have a witness on direct, you have to ask them who, what, when, where, why kinds of questions. you can't lead them to the answer that you want. but if the witnesses aren't forthcoming, then james can ask for permission to treat them as hostile witnesses. she will almost certainly have to do that here. and she can ask them more pointed questions, questions that really divulge the information she's interested in. isn't it true that you were present when this conversation occurred? that sort of a thing. and so very quickly, these witnesses get to the point where they have to decide whether they'll be forthcoming and tell

the truth, whether they will try to dissemble and plead a failure of memory, or whether they'll go ahead and assert the fifth amendment, which of course, is dangerous in a civil case because it means in this case justice engoron will be able to draw adverse inferences from asserting the fifth. >> yeah, and given judge engoron's position thus far vis-a-vis trump, he is likely to draw adverse inferences from the trump children should they plead the fifth. i have to ask you, joyce, because this case is sort of making its way through the courts. it is the first hearing, today was the first hearing in a lawsuit filed by six colorado voters who withheld from outside groups including citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington are seeking to prevent trump from getting on the ballot using the 14th amendment, section three of the 14th amendment.

minnesota i think is going obe hearing a similar case. we have sort of danced around this topic and touched on it a little bit in previous months, but i wonder what you make of it as a viable lawsuit that could work its way up to potentially the highest court in the land or not. >> and it does seem it's headed that way, for one thing, if there are different decisions in colorado and in minnesota, you could end up with a split that would make this sort of an attractive issue on appeal. it will be something that the court will consider seriously in any event because of its importance. and this is an issue that i think people can be reasonably conflicted about, because the 14th amendment, section three, says what it says. it says that if someone who has taken an oath of loyalty to the united states participated in an insurrection, they're ineligible to hold future office. period, end of story. and for the strict constructionists among us, that would typically be conservatives in this country, the language is relatively clear.

there's some legal issues about whether or not the president of the united states qualifies. there's some technical legal language about an officer of the united states. but setting that aside, even if there is a good faith belief that this statute applies and should keep trump off the ballot, then there are the political consequences of that legal decision and whether this isn't a decision that's better off left to voters, whether removing trump without permitting the voters to speak might do more damage than it would do constitutional good. >> well, we do know on that note that donald trump is already trying to fund-raise off that colorado case today. joyce vance, thank you again for your time. thoughts, and expertise. i appreciate it. coming up later this hour, what happens when the man described as the most important architect of 2020 electoral college objections, what happens when that man holds the speaker's gavel in 2024? first, former vice president

mike pence is bowing out of the 2024 race. are we on the eve of the great republican consolidation? that is next. stay with us.

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this is not my time. so after much prayer and deliberation, i have decided to suspend my campaign for

president effective today. >> mike pence has officially dropped out of the 2024 presidential race. this is not a shock to many republican primary voters, including mike pence supporters. but consider this for the moment. the most recent republican vice president of the united states did not even make it to the first primary contest. which is a sign of the times. that development comes as a new nbc news/des moines register poll shows donald trump still holding a commanding lead of nearly 30 points over the rest of the primary field among likely republican caucusgoers in iowa. now, this poll was taken before mike pence's announcement, so it remains to be seen who will pick up pence's whopping 2% of the iowa primary electorate. right now, donald trump remains the front-runner with 43%, one point up from where he was in august. former governor nikki haley has risen ten points since august, putting her at 16%, but that only means she's now tied for

second place with governor ron desantis, his campaign continues to hemorrhage support. he's down three points from august. joining me now is mark leibovitz, author of thank you for your servitude. what does it say that vivek ramaswamy outlasted the former vice president of the united states? >> you know, as you said, it's not a surprise at all. this is not mike pence's time. i'm not convinced it's vivek ramaswamy's time either. but i think this has been, i mean, it's been kind of in the works for long time. mike pence ironically and i think this says all you really need to know about the republican party today, i mean, he did one quite heroic and courageous deed which was his job, which was to certify the election for joe biden, and that almost on that day disqualified him from ever being president or

the nominee of the republican party. so yeah, this is all sort of been moving to this. what was almost perverse is he tried it to begin with. i don't know if he ever thought he could get traction, but it was clear early on this would be the result of the campaign. i think the relative indifference people have responded to this news with tell you all you need to know about where his candidacy was. >> you make note of the one thing mike pence did which he found himself so at odds with on the campaign trail, tying himself up into sort of knots trying to show the -- trying to make an issue of the courage he displayed that day, but also not impugning the history and the behavior of donald trump. which was an impossible position for him to find himself in. similarly speaking, in terms of, you know, confounding positions is that of ron desantis, mark. ron desantis has at this point lost ground with both anti-trump voters and the maga base.

it did not take a rocket scientist to see this coming. and yet, apparently this was always the strategy all along from the desantis campaign? >> it's unclear. his campaign has been a disaster. i mean, it had -- it was at its best when it was sort of speculative after he had won re-election in florida last year. he hadn't gotten in yet. people were sort of anointing him without him really doing anything. he raised a ton of money. he sort of got out there and was on one day sort of trump light, sporadically hit back at trump, he never found a voice, and he's still trying. it seems like he's losing a lot of traction as he goes along. and i guess the person who seems to be benefitting most is nikki haley these days. >> do you think haley is a

viable alternative to trump in the long run? there is a sense that the republican electorate, some slice of it, wants an alternative despite trump's apparent consolidation of the field. is that person nikki haley, if there is to be someone else, anyone else, in the republican primary process? >> i would say she has a very compelling profile, but i think her biggest adversary is not just trump, it's math. i think if she had the field to herself, if there was no ron desantis, if there was no tim scott, and you know, who knows what's going to become of the other campaigns, chris christie, vivek, i mean, go down the list. i think if she had a one-on-one shot against trump, she would be a very formidable candidate because she actually unlike desantis has found a voice in being critical with trump but also being somewhat having some credibility with the maga base to some degree. yeah, but i think until there is some consolidation, she really doesn't -- she's just sort of a flavor of the month sort of

lower case f and all the other letters in that. and we really don't -- i don't think we would ever see her full potential. again, if she were to have the field to herself, she would, i think, could really make some difference. >> you would think that republicans might have learned at least one lesson from the 2016 cycle, which is if you have a million people in there, it's to trump's benefit. do you think that the consolidation may happen earlier than it did in previous cycles, especially with trump's looming criminal trials on the horizon? >> no, because i don't think the republican party has shown itself terribly adept at learning lessons, at sort of pivoting in any direction. i mean, this is the same kind of avoidance strategy and just sort of bowing down to donald trump that has been the overriding dynamic of this party for the last almost eight years now. i don't see that changing.

i think in fairness, this is not a monolithic entity. these are individual candidates with individual egos, some very big. ron desantis doesn't strike me as someone who is going to selflessly take himself out of the race and then sort of give all of his support to or endorse nikki haley. i think just as likely he would endorse donald trump and sort of maybe hang around for four years from now. but look, this is not a party that is any sort of -- that has shown any kind of proclivity for course correction, and you know, barring some dramatic developments it looks like they're heading in the same trump centric direction for the next election. >> the words selfless and ron desantis don't often collide in a sentence together. i thank you for trying, mark. always good to see you, my friend. thanks for your thoughts tonight. coming up, trump's efforts to reverse the outcome of the 2020 election ultimately failed, but what happens in 2024? with speaker of the house mike johnson. how much of a threat is the man house democrats are now calling maga mike? that is next.

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from 1999 to 2013, the president of venezuela was this man. hugo chavez. he was a controversial leader whose legacy had a big impact on the american relationship with venezuela, but for our purposes this evening, none of that actually matters. to understand what i'm about to tell you, you really only need

to know one thing. that is hugo chavez is dead. he has been dead for over a decade after succumbing to cancer in 2013, which is why one of the most bonkers moments in the period right after the 2020 election was when right-wing conspiracy theorists claimed that long dead hugo chavez was somehow part of a vast conspiracy to rig the election for joe biden. >> in every election in american history, there's some small element of fraud, irregularity, error. but when you have it oa broad scale, when you have a sofare system that is used all around the country that is suspect because it came from hugo chavez's venezuela, it begs to be litigated and investigated. >> that was mike johnson, the man that republicans have now elected to be speaker of the house, during a radio interview in november of 2020, actively promoting one of the most absurd election conspiracies out there. an election conspiracy that relied on dead south american

leaders somehow tinkering with voting equipment seven years before the u.s. election took place. but mike johnson wasn't just spreading conspiracies, he was a key architect of the republican-led efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. shortly after the 2020 election, with multiple trump campaign legal challenges under way, mike johnson joined in one of those lawsuits and wrongfully claimed that the election results in four swing states were invalid. and then mike johnson whipped up more than 100 of his republican colleagues in congress to sign their names to it. johnson told his fellow republicans that donald trump was, quote, anxiously awaiting to see who in congress was willing to step up and publicly defend him. now, ultimately, this effort failed. the courts did not agree with mike johnson and his 100-plus colleagues or the secretary of state who filed the lawsuit to begin with. but that early effort to

overturn the election results, the effort organized by mike johnson, it gave donald trump and his supporters a real jumping off point from which to launch their stop the steal campaign, including a handy list of 100-plus allies that the trump campaign could lean on to support overturning the election results in congress. for his troubles, mike johnson has been described as, quote, the most important architect of the 2020 scheme among republicans in congress to reject the results of the election. now, today, we are only about a year away from the 2024 presidential election, and this time, mike johnson will not be on the sidelines whipping votes against legitimate elections. this time, mr. johnson will have the full weight of the speakership behind him. which gives him enormous control over the certification of election results. and what happens if the guy with the gavel does not respect the

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on the morning of january 6th, he tweeted, we must fight for election integrity, the constitution, and the preservation of our republic. it will be my honor to help lead that fight in the congress

today. that was congressman mike johnson, now the speaker of the house. announcing he would help lead the crusade to overturn the 2020 election. when the state of texas asked that the supreme court throw out election results in four states, mike johnson led house republicans in signing a legal brief in support of that challenge. as voting rights lawyer marc elias puts it, mike johnson is no ordinary election denier, he was a ring leader in one of the most dangerous effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election. he used his position as a lawyer and mib of congress to legitimize the fringe legal theory underpinning the big lie, other than former president donald trump, he is arguably the most culpable federal elected official in what transpired on january 6th, 2021. joining me now is marc elias, of course, powerhouse lawyer who won more than 60 different lawsuits against republicans and

the trump campaign when they tried to overturn the outcome of the 2020 election. thanks for being here, marc. i found your writing on this to be stirring and distressing, and giving the position of importance you have assigned to congressman johnson, why has he avoided deep investigation and possible prosecution up until this point? >> a great question, alex. i wrote a piece on september 8th, before anyone knew who mike johnson was, saying the biggest omission from the washington, d.c. federal indictment and the georgia indictment was the role of the people involved in that texas lawsuit. and there's no one more central to that lawsuit than mike johnson. now, i speculated why that may have been left out. it might have been that the prosecutors felt like they had enough without it. they may have had enough lawyers, god knows they had enough republican lawyers

already in play. or it may have just been that they didn't want to involve the supreme court, which was obviously a part of where this brief was filed. but i think it is very, very serious conduct that we saw. and as i said, there's no federally elected official who bears more culpability for january 6th than the now speaker. >> what do you make of the fact that we are barreling towards another presidential election and the speaker of the house is now mike johnson, in terms of election integrity efforts and the movement behind that, do you feel it's stronger and that the sort of insurance policy is a better one this time around? >> look, i think you can see this both ways. on the one hand, you know, there were reforms made to the electoral count act, that's a positive, that's a law that governs how the counting of electoral college votes are supposed to happen in the house in a joint session. but on the other hand, we know that the group of republicans including mike johnson, are lawless.

they probably won't care much what the law says. and we have seen democracy under attack now for years by the likes of people like donald trump and mike johnson, and that system of democracy that relies so much on good faith has withered. so what republicans have done is they have essentially given john eastman a gavel. the difference between mike johnson and john eastman are different fringe legal theories and one got indicted and one got promoted. >> do you think there are other ways that people who are interested in having a free and fair election should be preparing or other systems that need to be strengthened ahead of 2024? >> yeah, look, there's a role for all of us. if you're in a state, you know, there are things you can do in your states to strengthen and harden democracy. you can make it harder for people to act as election vigilantes which we saw right-wing organizations do.

you can hire more poll workers and make sure that election officials are doing their jobs. so if you're an ordinary citizen, you can frankly stand up in your town square, whether it's your online presence, your social media, or your group of friends who grab a cup of coffee on the weekend and educate them on what republicans like mike johnson are planning. because if we're all more educated and we all know what's happening it will be easier to combat. >> marc elias, it is an important time to be understanding the depth of the work that mike johnson was engaged in to turn the results of the 2020 election over to donald trump, and it is even more important given his role today as speaker of the house. great to have you on the program. thanks for taking some time tonight, marc. >> thank you. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. and hope and pray that civilized nations everywhere will back this fight because israel's fight is your fight. because if ty