so this fall, i had the great fortune to take my -- podcast on the road. including a recent stop -- in philadelphia. and there i got to speak with my good friend and colleague joy reid. i have to say, i was looking for to this conversation, but it blew away my already high expectations. it was an absolute revelation. i thought i knew joy. and i did! but not like this. i learned all about her background and her upbringing, which is fascinating. the tragedy that she lived through, and her trajectory to become the person that she is today. and i have an absolute blast, i think the audience did too. and that episode, our conversation, is now available for you to hear. you can check out the whole conversation wherever you get your podcasts, just scan that q r code on your screen or visit msnbc.com slash podcast. that is all in on this wednesday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> did you see me bootlegging tapes of that podcast? selling them out of the trunk of my car outside? >> i hope they were fetching a good, good.

price because it is worth, it's a good one. >> you never will know. but i direct everyone to go listen to the podcast. >> definitely go check it. it >> thank you, my friend. >> and thank you at-home for joining me this hour. and thanktoday in new york, dod trump's eldest son john junior took the stand in the civil fraud case against the former president and his family and his business. down in d.c., and in florida, judges issuing orders in both of special counsel jack smith's criminal cases against donald trump, the d.c. case involving trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, and the florida case centered only former presidents unlawful retention of classified documents. so a flurry of legal action today from mr. trump. and i'm gonna get some expert legal help breaking down all of that just a second. but perhaps the biggest legal news of today was this. the federal judge in charge of the mar-a-lago classified documents case, judge aileen cannon, who was of course

appointed by president trump, today judge cannon signaled that she may push back the date of trump's trial in that case. the trial was originally scheduled to start at the end of may next year. that would put it a few months after -- super tuesday, and before the republican national convention. right in the eye of the -- not -- in course she said that she has a hard time seeing how the current trial schedule would work. cannon's comments today came after trump's legal team filed a very specific request before the court court early last month, asking to delay the trial until at least mid november, 2024. at the time, that request felt more comical than anything else. at least mid november 2024. oh? i wonder why. what could be happening at the beginning of november 2024?

but now, it is a very live issue -- fairly transparent request -- -- sympathetic ear. if the end of may is too early in judge cannon's eyes, then there is not much runway left until the primaries are officially the done and the general election is in full swing. when judge cannon would be willing to schedule a trial in the middle of a general election. is it no possible that donald trump may not face trial in this case,, which is arguably the most cruel clear-cut criminal indictment he has been charged with. until after the 2024 election. that may be the most important decision judge cannon makes in this entire case, particularly in light of some explosive new reporting out of the new york times today. today the times is out with some incredible new details about a master plan developed by former trump administration officials, including

immigration hard-liner stephen miller. miller, along with other controversial trump advisers, is drawing up a plan for what trump will do if he wins the 2024 election. now, the top line of the stories that these individuals want to get rid of all traditional legal conservatives, that typically make up a republican administration, and indeed were hired and fired with some regularity in the first trump administration. instead, these officials want to fill the executive branch with lawyers willing to do whatever trump wants. i really cannot stress just how far the new york times reports the window has shifted here. the most important beatle -- is the federalist society. for decades, it has been the core of the conservative legal movement, stacking the judicial and legislative and executive branches with as many conservatives as possible. but the new york times reports tonight that on the trump aligned far right, the phrase

federalist society has now become a slur, a shorthand for a kind of lawyer weakness. the federalist society that brought to you sam aledo and antonin scalia. as the times put it to, the move away from the group represents the continuing evolution of the republican party in the trump era, in an effort among those now in his inner circle to prepare to take control of the government in a way unseen in modern presidential history. people close to the former president say they are seeking out a different type of lawyer, committed to trump's america first ideology. they want lawyers and federal agents, in the white house who are willing to use theories that more established lawyers would reject to advance trump's cause. this new mines that matches mr. trump's declaration that he is waging a final battle against demonic enemies, populating a deep state within the government that is bent on destroying america.

, reading between the lines here, the most out here trump aides like stephen miller are putting together lists of legal minds that they want to in a potential second trump administration, and a litmus test here is not whether a lawyer is a conservative, or even conservative enough. but instead, whether a lawyer is willing to let donald trump test the bounds of legal thinking and concentrate power for himself. and that includes the justice department. the times reports that advisers are likely to follow mr. trump back into power, who are likely to follow trump back into power, few white house authorities to direct the justice department as proper under the so-called unitary executive theory. that is the theory popular on the right that says that all executive branch officials should be under the direct command and control of the president. joining me now is andrew weissmann, former federal prosecutor and co-host of the essential podcast.

prosecuting donald trump, thank you for being here tonight, andrew. before we get to the legal news today, i found this new york times reporting staggering. the lengths to which trump wants to push everything into an area that no one, not even a gray area, a dark black hole where the law has not gone before. kenneth chesebro, john eastman, jenna ellis, rudy giuliani, sydney powell, these are trump's lawyers, who are now criminally indicted, those are the kinds of folks for the actual folks that trump would like to have in the white house making big decisions if he wins in 2020, what's your reaction? >> this is the model of roy cohn, i mean, we are talking about not a legal system, this is an extra legal system. you know, why she was not with the federalist society, it is not oh, i disagree with the

opinion of had cipollone or don mcgahn, and i think it is wrong to be thinking of it as, you know, liberal versus federalist society in terms of, you know, those are legitimate differences, and you can have really good debates about it. there are people who have lines, don mcgahn had a real line and he was not willing to ride for the former president, has a plan he was not willing to engage an insurrection. now i know a lot of people would say that that's not a high bar, you are not willing to commit a crime, but they were willing to say no. they were acting as lawyers would do, on a set of principles. this is taking a playbook out of fascist authoritarian regimes, where lawyers are part of the tools of giving a veneer of legitimacy to authoritarians to make it appear that they are staying within the law when they are not. >> what so shocks me is that these lawyers seem absolutely willing to be used as tools. it's as if there is no self respect for the knowledge that

they have accrued as professionals, and that's people who graduated from law school? >> so we are not a legal profession, you have seen it in journalism, you see it on the hill, you see it in all sorts of ways where power and money has an insidious effect on people in terms of their integrity. it is not a good thing for my profession when you think about the fact that there are good and sincere conservative and liberal employers. this, is we are talking about people who are being picked because they won't say no. >> yeah. >> so it is a really different discussion. and, you know, people, this is just part of human nature, that some people are not, you know, brought up to be able to have the test of, can you go home and look at yourself in the mirror? >> i was also stunned to see

that the federalist society is being referred to in trump's circles as a bunch of switches. i, mean these are the people on the supreme court who are responsible for a radical transformation of american society and the image of far-right conservative ideology. what is your reaction to that? just in terms of whether alienating the federalist society, in terms of donald trump's priorities, whether it might not be a good thing for broader democracy to not have them aligned anymore? does that help normalize things? >> well i do think we have already seen some of that, i mean, for instance, the federalist society scholars who had the view that the former president is not capable and should be disqualified from running again. federalist society white house counsel's who have said no to the former president. so i think we are already seeing that split, and it used

to be that you saw that in terms of push republicans, which now i think are sort of otherize described as democrats. so there already is that split, and it tells you just how far trump has taken the country and certainly the republican party, which, my friends who are republicans say that they don't really have a party anymore. >> one wonders, you know, how that plays out in the context of the trials that are unfolding right now? aileen cannon, aileen cannon is a federalist society judge. it remains to be seen the degree to which she is going to be sympathetic to donald trump. the suggestion today that she may use move the trial date, how do you parse her words on this? i know it is difficult? >> it is fascinating, because remember, she was reversed twice by the 11th circuit, by very, very conservative judges. and that is an example of judges who are like, you know,

we didn't sign up for that. we are still adhered to what the lawyers and don't paint us with the same brush. i think it's perhaps too early to tell, but the signs are not good. she comes with a history where she was reversed twice in quite spectacular fashion by the 11th circuit. and making decisions that were close. i mean, they were off the charts. and that is, to your point about how we begin our conversation. was donald trump looking for lawyers like that? the idea that the trial would be pushed off, i have read all the papers. there is no reason to put the trial of. no legitimate reason. this is a minor dispute about discovery where this is still months and months away. and there is a very narrow window to have this trial. so it remains to be seen what she'll do. she could just push it off a little bit, which would be a sign, you know, maybe a couple

of weeks? >> yeah what is a little bit in your book, is that noon june? >> yes, basically june. the further it goes, the more you really do have to start being concerned about, he is, if he is the nominee, which it looks like he will be. then you do want to make sure that he has the ability to run for the office, as much as you may disagree with his views, he will be a presidential candidate. >> i, mean also you theoretically want to get republican voters, primary voters a chance to evaluate whether they want, you, know criminally convicted nominee. >> right, absolutely, the idea of putting it off, i mean, the counter is you want to put it to republican voters to know, and you want the general electorate to. no >> of course. >> whichever way the trial goes, they should have the benefit of that information. >> and i just mentioned the context of pushing it till may, it's already quite late. you're gonna have a nominee by july. there is very little room here. >> absolutely. she suggested that the argument

was that she doesn't want to run into the march trial date that judge chutkan has. but that trial is not scheduled to last all that's long. you know, that is where jack smith is very much, like, i am going to try this case, i mean to get, in and i'm gonna get out. he knows that he wants to have the second trial. so it is not a corporate argument for her to be, like, well i am concerned about. that if she really were concerned, the way you deal with that is the way judge chutkan dealt with it. she called the new york judge to say, is it okay if i schedule it? because i know you have a trial. judge cannon, there is nothing improper at all, proper to call judge chutkan and say, i want to make sure that this is going to be okay if i do this. i want to make sure my trial can go, and i'm not jamming you up. >> are they calling each other? first it's hard to imagine tanya chutkan an aileen cannon, talking both of them, the disparity and experience it outlook. >> yes. >> it's someone who organizing

this? as someone making? it is their iphone jury somewhere happening? >> it's a normal process when you have this, but judges are adults, they call each other. judge chutkan announced that, she said, i have called the state court judge, there has been nothing wrong at all with the judges speaking to each other, they are both federal article three judges. and there is a certain amount of collegiality and respect and decorum that goes with that. >> collegiality, respect, decorum. things that if you believe in the new york times, they are on their way out if trump wins in another term in the white house. i know that is hard for a lot of people to hear that sentence, but the reporting is essential. andrew weissmann, thank you for joining us tonight. >> you're welcome. >> we have a lot to come this, evening including the latest on believable developments in the george santos saga. plus, donald trump jr., the first of the trump family to take the stand in the civil fraud trial in new york city. we are gonna dig into that with pulitzer prize-winning new york times reporter sue gray, that is coming up next. is coming up next.

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donald trump's eldest son donald trump jr. took the stand in the new york city civil fraud case against the trump family and the trump organization, where trump jr. is the executive vice president.

donald trump is the first of trump's adult children to testify. his siblings and his father isolated testified later this weekend the next. today, mr. trump spent most of his time on the stand putting distance between himself and the questionable financial statements that are at the heart of this case. as a reminder, attorney general letitia james alleges that his top executives, including his, sons considered conspired to inflate their wealth on financial statements by billions of dollars. and the judge in this case, judge arthur engoron has already ruled that fraud committed, so what is left to be decided here is how much of the trumps are going to pay for that fraud? joining me now is suzanne craig, investigative journalist, one of the lead reporters in the new york times, pulitzer prize-winning investigation into trump's finances. it's great to see, you thanks for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> so donald trump jr., how plausible is it that he really didn't know what was going on with the company finances? >> i find it very unlikely, i

mean, anything is possible, but this is somebody who was a senior officer of the company, making the lost data that we have and the york times obtained a lot of their tax information to -- once he went into the white house. substantial increase from what he was making, it was not how much more responsibility he was going to be taking or taking on. he was put in as a trustee when donald trump became president, set up a trust. and the idea was that don junior and eric his brother would go and would be essentially overseeing the company. eric wasn't the trustee, but don jr. was. eric has been probably more involved in -- >> what is your traditions the

attitude is -- who by all outside assessments actually knows even more than don jr. does. >> i think they are not created equal in terms of their roles with the company, i think with don jr. today he, stepping back now, in the weeks before leading up to this, he hasn't been a presence in terms of a lot of the conversations, just about how much he was involved. we are not hearing people say i want to, eric weir went to john junior, and i talked to them about this. i want to, you know, i went to erik -- decisions that were made. but he's still, you, know his role in the financial statements, we are gonna get into them tomorrow. it's gonna do at the end of the day, it was interesting, he had a very friendly demeanor for most of the day. the attorney general was taking a very aggressive stance. the lawyer that was representing the attorney general. the, end when they got down to some questions about his role

in those financial statements, those are the statements that were submitted to the financial institutions, they are at the heart of this case and showing that they submitted false documents to financial institutions. in the statements, the question was how much did he and was he involved? and how much do you know? he walked right away, i didn't have any moment, that's where we hire lawyers for. and then kind of just walked back a bit and said i may have had them but i didn't know that what i was saying was going into the calculations for financial statements. so he really threaded that. so i think that that's where we're gonna hear more of that tomorrow. i think a lot more got aggressive questioning on that issue. and then erik will be really interesting, because eric has really been the member of the family that has been running this organization. when you are hearing a lot about people's dealings with eric trump leading up until now, i think he is going to take a fair bit of time for the attorney general to go through this. it's gonna be a real focus. >> ivanka has had her role

effectively thrown out by an appellate court. but she is testifying. and it sounds like it is an open question, because donald trump, donald trump junior and eric trump would be the ones effectively prevented from doing business if jean-éric go around so decides here in new york city. and there is a question about whether the management of the trump organization could be transferred to ivanka trump. is that right? if she chooses that option? >> i am not in that count. i mean, i don't know. and so, i mean, i've heard that. i don't know how it is going to play. i think it is going to be such a long time. because i think we have to remember, even when this trial is done, and there will be a, number there will be a penalty. it's gonna go to an appeals, court it's gonna take a long time to play out. in the meantime, there is a receiver over the company. >> right. >> and that receiver will be there to monitor their business. because eventually some assets may have to be sold to meet that penalty, which could be 250 million. it could be less. and there was an interesting thing, when don jr. got up --

pretty dense stuff to listen to, but the expert who was speaking to how much the damage should be was up this morning. and he had said because of the fraudulent nature of the documents that were so -- they got favorable terms on loans, just on four properties that came through -- 100 and $60 million. so that is the stuff that the judge is going to consider when he is looking at how much the damages should be. when you think about the kids coming into this, not only is this the company that they have all worked for pretty much their entire lives except for a year or two in ivanka's life, whatever is left will be their inheritance. there is a lot of stake, here not just in terms of this is a family business for them, and all they have really known, it's going to affect not only what they inherit, it's going to affect their descendants. i, mean this is money that is transfer through generations. >> well, we should also, say it's an open question about how liquid donald trump himself is, right? the post reports that trump reported earning income about

14.8 million in pain speeches in 22 and 23, collecting $250,000 from the log cabin. republicans about two point 3,000,004 for speeches. from the american freedom tour, he is selling nfts which are pulling it out i think 5 million according to this. this is large numbers for all of us. but for donald trump who boasts that he is a billionaire, he is making speeches for $250, 000, which suggests to me that he needs cash, so. >> right, we don't know what his actual walking around money is. we know that he owns a number of businesses. new york times in 2020 got 20 years of his corporate individual tax returns. what we learned in that, a lot of his businesses lose money. so they are worth, money he has got golf course is not worth, much he has got some valuable assets. but he is also pumping capital into those and they are losing money. so what you are seeing here, when i read, this it is very much akin to he has got, you, know around the country has got businesses.

but he is also got these lightness licensing deals that he would do where he would license his thing -- those are very addictive, because you get -- >> trump steaks, trump vodka, trump ties. >>, yes that's a, thing you are right. the speaking fees are sort of reminding me of that in the live golf tournament where he's getting money to host live golf tournaments. that is the sort of stuff that is great because it just comes in the door and it can be used either to plug holes in businesses for losing money or for whatever else he wants. but we don't have a sense of -- this money, but we don't have a sense of just walking around money. >> and how much money is walking around money and his paying out damages money. right? that's the real question. $250 million, that's a lot of speeches to the log cabin republicans. >> right, and it is not tax deductible. >> it is not. towards donald trump does not want to hear, not tax deductible. suzanne craig, thank you for helping me understand the complicated set of testimonies

from this weekend. thank you, sue. still to come this evening, the president, president biden confronted by a protester over the israel-hamas war, as the democratic party faces deep divisions over u.s. policy. plus, republican congressman and serial fabulist george santos faces the music, kind. of faces tunes in the house of representative. what happened there is next.

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republican congressman george santos of new york called up a reporter from the new york times, and in the course of a 45 minute conversation, this happened. i'll give you one story that nobody talks about, sandals replied, before telling me how his five-year-old niece disappeared from a playground in queens, only to be located four minutes later on this surveillance camera with two chinese man. san jose said the incident was the subject of an active police investigation, implying heavily that it might have been in retaliation for his vocal stance against the chinese communist party. so you think it was china, i asked, clarifying. look i don't want to go into, like, conspiracy theory, san jose said, but, you know, if the shoe fits, right?

the new york times reporter here, naturally, looked into santos's story, and high-ranking police official said that officers had been called in a investigated an incident. but they had no evidence of chinese communist party involvement, or kidnapping it all. we found nothing at all to suggest it's true, the official said. he made it up. it has been nearly a year since that new york times reporter and her colleagues for started looking into newly elected congressman george santos and uncovered the extent to which mr. santos has been making it up. from lies about graduating from college is that had no record of his attendance, to lies about having worked a top tier wall street firms, that's in addition to a slew of improbable anecdotes, producing a field broadway musical, or claiming that he had employees who had been killed in the pulse nightclub shooting. and then it was a criminal charge in brazil for allegedly

forging signatures on checks that he stole from a elderly man. prosecutors charged san jose with 14 counts of wire fraud, money, fraud death to public funds, and lying to the house of representatives. santos pleaded not guilty to those charges, but last month was hit with ten additional federal charges in a superseding indictment, including fraud, false statements, falsification of records, aggravated identity theft, and credit card fraud. indictment alleges santos obtain the personal identity and financial information of individuals that had contributed to his campaign and then called their access devices to be charged repeatedly without authorization for santos's benefit. all too which santos has pleaded not guilty. and that led to five new york republican congressman backing a resolution to expel george santos from congress. and yet, presented with the

opportunity to finally expel a federally indicted serial fabulist from their ranks in the united states congress, the vote failed, 179 to 213, earlier this evening. a majority of republicans chose to stand by the serial liar and alleged criminal. only 24 of them voted to expel santos from their ranks. 31 democrats also broke ranks and voted to let santos stay in congress, for what reason, we do not know. but for now the guy who has been something of an emblem of the chaos that is republican-led house, that guy will be sticking around. we're gonna talk about that and what is happening right now in the democratic party, coming up next. ng u next ic shocks or sharp, stabbing pains. ♪♪ this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. a pain so intense, you could miss out on family time.

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♪ ♪ ♪ you don't...you don't have to worry... ♪ ♪ be by your side... i'll be there... ♪ ♪ with my arms wrapped around... ♪ >> earlier tonight at a campaign event in minnesota, president biden began speaking about the israel-hamas war, calling the conflict incredibly complicated. and this is what happened next. >> mister president -- >> oh my god. >> i'm a rabbi, i need you to call for a cease-fire right now. >> that protester was rabbi jessica rosenberg. she is a member of the group jewish voice for peace, which has been organizing jewish led pro cease-fire protests across the country, part of a number of groups calling for. it 18 house members of called on to sign on to a resolution

calling for a cease-fire in gaza. all of them democrats, all of them people of color. president biden the vast majority of democratic party have rejected those calls. the administration has instilled supported what they call a humanitarian pause, to allow more aid into gaza. so far israel has given no sign that it intends to pause its military operation anytime soon. prime minister netanyahu instead said this week, this is a time for war. the divide inside the democratic party here reflects a broader generally shuttle divide on this issue. a poll out today found that 64% of democrats support president biden's approach toward israel, but when it comes to voters under the age of 35, a key democratic constituency, only 25% support biden's approach. this debate is now poised to become a real flash point in next year's election. the new york times reports the pro israel groups are weighing supporting primary challenges to several of the more

outspoken congressional critics of villas real's military response to the hamas terror attacks. joining me is michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for the new york times. michelle, you've written so thoughtfully about this, this moment that we find ourselves in. and i wonder what you make of biden's management of this. again, i do think it is complicated, but he was very clear at the outset, where he believed americas allegiances lay, and has refused any kind of new bombardment in invasion of gaza so i wonder what you make of the fact that it appears to be costing him quite seriously among part of the parts of the democratic base. >> i think there's two questions here. there is a substantive question, whether his handling of the crisis can be defended and then another question of how he can handle it in a way that is politically wise. those two things aren't necessarily the same thing.

look, i think that obviously strategy of holding bibi close and embracing israel and showing a united front in public and then me leading a lot about how he's pressuring israel in private, doing his best to restrain it in private, in order for that to seem incredible to people, there has to be some indication of israeli restraint, besides just this tiny trickle of 25, 30 trucks coming in over the border from egypt. and so i think he said that, he said that instead of calling for a cease-fire, meaning he supports a call for humanitarian pause. he needs to be, i think, making that call much more forcefully, making, putting much more visible pressure on israel to stop some of the rampages that we are seeing in the west bank. doing more, i think, not

physically, not just leaking that you're doing it behind the scenes. at least mitigate the scenes of unimaginable horror. >> unimaginable carnage, which is not to say that what happened it israel was not unimaginable, but the death toll, if we are to believe this to six we have been given, is staggering in gaza. michelle, there's also the question of what happens inside the democratic party here. democrats in congress are less in a position of power to change what israel is doing, but it is still a very real debate in congress, with the party on the whole should do. i think that there is something to this idea that those who are speaking out against israel's actions, all of them thus far in congress or people of color. you look at the way in which the movement to support the citizens of palestine is intersecting with the social justice movement. i think a lot of people aren't aware of the convention of these two movements.

the new york times reports biden the democrats and say face new resistance from parts of the party -- that the killing of mike brown, in some ways is catalytic for a broader thinking for how we brown people in this country are treated. and on this planet. arab american support. air marathons willing to vote for biden in 2020 is 59%. october this year, 17%. what do you make of that, michelle? my >> look, i think obviously there are different problems. there's a sort of identity problem, and then there's the generational divide. the generational divide makes sense. there's an older generation, biden generation, for whom israel was a socialist country. israel, and israel for a long time saw itself in for us for a

time machine by others as an anti colonialist project against the british empire. the older people have no memory of that. they have no memory of an israel whose leaders weren't openly elimination asked, who didn't have not just netanyahu but some of these incredibly racist characters that he has around them. and then meanwhile you had, i think, the pro palestinian movement has done a very good job of trying to link their own struggle, which is not necessarily analogous in all its particulars, to racial justice struggles in america, but i think that they have been very very good at building these grassroots connections, making these analogies. there's murals of george floyd in palestine, and so i think for a lot of young people, especially because this is confusing, and the history in many ways, the hall of mirrors, claims and counterclaims, and so people look for analogies.

and they look for trusted voices. i think for a lot of young people, both what they are learning in school, what they are learning as they go to social justice protests, and what they're learning from their peers is, it is a sort of total abhorrence of not the current government of israel that many cases ends up extending into sort of broader anti-zionism. that is a bigger problem that i think biden's political team can't necessarily address but they can do things to narrow the divide. one, i think, by showing that their strategy is at least they're in bearing some fruit. then also maybe by standing up to apec, the american israeli public affairs committee which is targeting some of these messages of the squad who have tried to walk a fine line on israel. who have condemned these

horrific massacres by hamas, who have condemned the explosion of antisemitism but at the same time insist on the legitimacy of palestinian national aspirations and human rights. >> michelle goldberg, this is such a complicated topic. but it is complicated, and you put it into context so brilliantly. it's really, thank you for your time, and thank you for your thoughts on this. still ahead, for the first time since the war between israel and hamas broke out on october 7th, a small group of evacuees was permitted to cross the rafah border to safety in egypt. their stories are next. eir stories are next (smelling) ew. gotta get rid of this. ♪tell me why♪ because it stinks.

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to gaza to volunteer at the palestine children's relief fund, helping children who lost their limbs due to violence in the region. she was there, in gaza, when war broke out after hamas launched a terrorist attack against israel last month. miss okumura have been staying in the united nations compound in gaza, but she had effectively been trapped there for 26 days. today we can confirm that miss okumura is one of five american aid workers allowed to evacuate, gaza crossing the rafah border into egypt. she wasn't listed about 500 people permitted to leave the area as part of the deal between egypt, hamas, and israel. when it was mediated by qatar and american officials. new >> today thanks to concerted american leadership we are in a situation where safe passage for wounded palestinians and foreign nationals in gaza has started. american -- has part of the first group of

probably over 1000. we will see more this process going on in the coming days. working nonstop to get americans out of gaza as soon and safely as possible. >> joining me now is my friend and colleague ayman mohyeldin, host of ayman here on msnbc, who has reported extensively from gaza. it's great to see you. 26 days. for a while these americans could have been considered being eldest by, they were being held in hostage by in gaza if not directed by hamas. was this american intervention that made this happen? why did it take so long? it's almost a month for people who were medical professionals helping and staying when compounds. you would imagine they would be among the very first to leave. >> i think the position, as i understood from people that were involved in trying to broker this, at least on the egyptian side and certainly on

hamas through intermediaries that are mostly in doha, was that they wanted to see not just dual nationals leave. there was something that they felt was -- about saying oh format nationals can leave with the rest of the population populations being bombarded, killed, and starved, as to stay. what they were really trying to negotiate was a mechanism for what we saw today, the exodus of wounded palestinians. so that was a long convoy of cars. or ambulances, i should say. the carrying palestinian children, some of the most critically injured people, life and death type of situations in those ambulances, were allowed to leave as well. it was a humanitarian relief for as many people as possible, and not just billed as the foreign nationals that were allowed to get out of gaza while everyone else stayed behind and were bombarded to death. >> those images you see are wrenching. those are the lucky ones.

>> yeah. >> there's a huge question about how you even begin to choose when you have suffering in the order of magnitude that we have heard happening in gaza. we know that jabalia refugee camp, idf launched a strike on that camp, there are 100 and -- refugees there. israel said they killed him a mosque commander, ibrahim biari, in that strike. united nations is saying that the attack on that refugee camp could amount to a war crime. >> one of many allegations that i've made throughout the past several days. here is why. in part because if you look at the way the bombardment has been taking place across the gaza strip, nowhere, and i mean nowhere, is safe. if you told people to move to the south. the south was bombed. they have taken shelter in certain places like a church. the church was bombed. a refugee camp or people think they might be safe, they are bombed.

so at the end of the day, the challenge that has become very apparent, and what international lawyers and human rights organizations are talking about, is proportionality, and to what extent you expect the people in this camp to be aware of what is happening to them, or what is happening underneath them at any given moment, if you are on the face of it accepting the israeli argument that they were doing this to target a single individual. but keep in mind, and we have seen this, we've seen surveillance video, and i had this on my show over the weekend will boy withstanding adjacent to the building, the building gets knocked out and ultimately the child is buried underneath the rubble. that's why people use the term collective punishment. you are not aware of who else is in your vicinity it any given moment. and israel says they warned people when they tell people to leave. in some cases it's five minutes, in some cases it's a phone call. they've been dropping leaflets. but people feel like they don't have anywhere to go that is safe. we've spoken to a lot of people. for example the elders era

arabic bureau chief whose family was killed. he yielded he heeded israel's warming warnings and moved his family out of the gaza strip and move them to the southern part. what happened? the building next to where his family was seeking refuge was targeted by israel and he lost his wife, a daughter, a son, and grandson. it's a story that's repeating itself time and time again, every day, throughout this war. that innocent people, civilians, men, women, and children, elderly, are paying the price, and there is no single safe space in the entire gaza strip. >> you focus just on the lives of children have been lost. 3600 children reportedly killed. again, from the palestinian health authorities. >> which would be the acquittal equivalent of 200,000 american children killed in three weeks. we think 3000, maybe that supports a lumber for what has happened, but to put it in perspective, as a pcr f, the palestinian children's relief fund founder told me this week on my, show that would be the