he was so caring and giving, and wise. and he totally helped me get sober. >> according to people magazine, was perry making a plan to establish a foundation to help other struggling with addiction issues. they say some clothes perry are still hoping to create that foundation, now in his honor. we leave you tonight with some final words from our friend, matthew perry himself. >> i pray to you, if you worry that you are having this problem, or you know somebody that is, raise your hand, find somebody who is smarter than you about this, and talk to them. and be honest about it. because the secrets are what kill us. >> and please, if you or someone you love is struggling with addiction consider reaching out to the national help line at 1-800-662-help.

and on that note, i wish you a very good and safe night. good to be back with you. from all our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> today, in new york, don trump's eldest son, don jr., took the stand in a civil fraud case against the former president and his family and his business. down in d. c., and in florida, judges issuing orders in both of special counsel jack smith's criminal cases against donald trump, the d. c. case involving trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, and the florida case centered only former presidents unlawful retention of classified documents. so a flurry of legal action today from mr. trump. and i'm gonna get some expert legal help breaking down all of that just a second. but perhaps the biggest legal news of today was this. the federal judge in charge of

the mar-a-lago classified documents case, judge aileen cannon, who was of course appointed by president trump, today judge cannon signaled that she may push back the date of trump's trial in that case. the trial was originally scheduled to start at the end of may next year. that would put it a few months after -- super tuesday, and before the republican national convention. right in the eye of the -- 2024 election storm, if you will. now, judge cannon did not set a new day today. but in court, she said she has a hard time seeing how the current trial schedule would work. cannon's comments today came after trump's legal team filed a very specific request before the court court early last month, asking to delay the trial until at least mid november, 2024. at the time, that request felt more comical than anything else. at least mid november 2024.

oh? i wonder why. what could be happening at the beginning of november 2024? but now, it is a very live issue -- and as to whether or not that fairly transparent request on the part of trump's team -- whether that request might have found a sympathetic ear. if the end of may is too early in judge cannon's eyes, then there is not much runway left until the primaries are officially done, general election is in full swing. would judge cannon be willing to schedule a trial in the middle of a general election? or is it now possible that donald trump may not face trial in this case, which is arguably the most clear cut criminal indictment he has been charged with, until after the 2024 election? that may be the most important decision judge cannon makes in this entire case, particularly in light of some explosive new reporting out of the new york times today. today, the times is out with

some credible new details about a master plan developed by former trump administration officials, including immigration hard-liners stephen miller. miller, along with other controversial trump advisers is drawing up a plan for what trump will do with the winds the 2024 election. now, the top line of the story is that these individuals want to get rid of all the quote unquote traditional legal conservatives that typically make up a republican administration, and indeed, were hired and fired with some regularity in the first trump administration. and instead these officials want to fill the executive branch with lawyers willing to do whatever trump wants. i really cannot stress just how far the new york times reports the overton window has shifted here. the most important conservative legal group in this country is the federalist society. for decades, it has been the core of the conservative legal movement, stacking the judicial and executive and legislative branches with as many

conservatives as possible. the new york times reports tonight that, on the trump aligned far-right, the phrase federalist society has now become a slur, a shorthand for a kind of lawyerly weakness. the federalist society that brought you sam alito and antonin scalia. as the times put it to, the move away from the group represents the continuing evolution of the republican party in the trump era, in an effort among those now in his inner circle to prepare to take control of the government in a way unseen in modern presidential history. people close to the former president say they are seeking out a different type of lawyer, committed to trump's america first ideology. they want lawyers and federal agents, in the white house who are willing to use theories that more established lawyers would reject to advance trump's cause. this new mines that matches mr. trump's declaration that he is waging a final battle against demonic enemies, populating a

deep state within the government that is bent on destroying america. , reading between the lines here, the most out here trump aides like stephen miller are putting together lists of legal minds that they want to in a potential second trump administration, and a litmus test here is not whether a lawyer is a conservative, or even conservative enough. but instead, whether a lawyer is willing to let donald trump test the bounds of legal thinking and concentrate power for himself. and that includes the justice department. the times reports that advisers are likely to follow mr. trump back into power, who are likely to follow trump back into power, few white house authorities to direct the justice department as proper under the so-called unitary executive theory. that is the theory popular on the right that says that all executive branch officials should be under the direct command and control of the president. joining me now is andrew

weissmann, former federal prosecutor and co-host of the essential podcast. prosecuting donald trump, thank you for being here tonight, andrew. before we get to the legal news today, i found this new york times reporting staggering. the lengths to which trump wants to push everything into an area that no one, not even a gray area, a dark black hole where the law has not gone before. kenneth chesebro, john eastman, jenna ellis, rudy giuliani, sydney powell, these are trump's lawyers, who are now criminally indicted, those are the kinds of folks for the actual folks that trump would like to have in the white house making big decisions if he wins in 2020, what's your reaction? >> this is the model of roy cohn, i mean, we are talking about not a legal system, this is an extra legal system.

you know my issue is not with the federalist society, it is not oh, i disagree with the opinion of pat cipollone or don mcgahn, and i think it is wrong to be thinking of it as, you know, liberal versus federalist society in terms of, you know, those are legitimate differences, and you can have really good debates about it. there are people who have lines, don mcgahn had a real line and he was not willing to live for former president, and passive pony was not willing to engage an insurrection. now i know a lot of people would say that that's not a high bar, you are not willing to commit a crime, but they were willing to say no. they were acting as lawyers would do, on a set of principles. this is taking a playbook out of fascist authoritarian regimes, where lawyers are part of the tools of giving a veneer of legitimacy to authoritarians to make it appear that they are staying within the law when they are not. >> what so shocks me is that

these lawyers seem absolutely willing to be used as tools. it's as if there is no self respect for the knowledge that they have accrued as professionals, and that's people who graduated from law school? >> so, we are not -- in the legal profession. you have seen it in journalism. you see it on the hill. you see it in all sorts of ways, where power and money has an insidious effect on people in terms of their integrity. it is not a good thing for my profession when you think about the fact that there are good and sincere conservative and liberal lawyers. this is -- we are talking about people who are being picked because they won't say no. and so, it's a very, very different discussion. and people -- that just part of human nature, is that some people are not

brought up to be able to have the test of, can you go home and look at yourself in the mirror? >> i was also stunned to see that the federalist society is being referred to in trump circles as a bunch of squish is. these are the people on the supreme court alone who are responsible for a radical transformation of american society in the image of a far-right conservative ideology. what is your reaction to that? just in terms of weather, alienating the federalist society, in terms of donald trump priorities, might somehow be a good thing for broader democracy, to not have them aligned anymore? that help normalize things? >> i do think we have already seen some of that. for instance, the federal federalist society scholars who had the view that the former president is not capable, and should be disqualified from running again. the federalist society, white house councils, who have said

no to the former president. i think we are already seeing that split. and it used to be that you saw -- republicans which now are -- democrats and so there already is that split. and it tells you just how far trump has taken the country, and certainly the republican party, which, i have friends who are republicans who say they don't really have a party anymore. >> one wonders how that plays out in the -- aileen cannon, aileen cannon is a federalist society judge. it remains to be seen the degree to which she is going to be sympathetic to donald trump. does the suggestion today that she moved the trial date? how do you parse her words on this? i know it's difficult. >> it's fascinating. because, remember, she was

reversed twice by the 11th circuit by very, very conservative judges. that's an example of judges who are, like, you know what? we didn't sign up for that. we still add here to what the law is, and don't paint us with the same brush. i think it is, perhaps, too early to tell. but the signs are not good. and -- there is quite spectacular fashion, and making the -- we were off the charts. and that is, to your point, about how we began a conversation. is donald trump looking for lawyers like that? the idea that the trial would be pushed off, i have read all the papers. there is no reason to put the trial off, no legitimate reason. this is a minor dispute about discovery, we're this is still months and months away. and there is a very narrow

window to have this trial. so, it -- we could just push it off a little bit, which would be a sign, maybe, a few couple of weeks. >> and -- >> it's basically june. and the further it goes, the more you really do have to start being concerned about he is the nominee which it looks like -- the office as much as you may disagree with his views. >> and also -- give republican voters, primary voters, a chance to evaluate whether they want a criminally convicted nominee and the counter is you want -- general election to know, which, whichever way the trial goes, they should have the benefit of -- >> pushing it until may is

already quite late. -- and there's very little running room here. >> she suggested that the argument was, she doesn't want to run into the march trial that judge chutkan has. but that trial is not scheduled to last all that long. that is where jack smith is very much like i am going to -- and get out. so, he knows that he wants to have that second trial, so, it's not a great argument for her to be, well, unconcerned about that. if you really were concerned about, the way you would deal with that is the way judge chutkan dealt with it. she called the new york judge to say, is it okay if i schedule him? because i know you have a trial. judge cannon. there is nothing improper at all and it would be improper for her to call judge chutkan and say, i want to make sure this is going to be okay if i do this. i want to make sure that my trial can go and -- >> are they calling each other? first, it's hard to imagine

judge chutkan and judge cannon -- experience and outlook. what is someone organizing this? is there a phone tree somewhere? >> the normal process when you have this is that judges are adults. they call each other. and judge chutkan announced that. she said, i have called the state court judge. there would be nothing long at all with the judges speaking to each other. they are both federal, article three judges. and there is a certain amount of collegiality and respect and decorum that goes with that. >> collegiality, respect and decorum. things that, if you believe the new york times, are on their way out if trump wins another term in the white house. i know that's hard for a lot of people to hear that sentence. but the reporting is essential. andrew weissmann, thank you for joining me tonight. i really appreciate it. we have a lot more to come this evening, including the latest unbelievable developments in the george santos saga. plus, donald trump junior, first of the trump family to take the stand in the civil

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running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into >> today in a manhattan when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. courtroom, donald trump's eldest son donald trump jr. took the stand in the new york city civil fraud case against the trump family and the trump organization, where trump jr. is the executive vice president. donald trump is the first of trump's adult children to testify. his siblings and his father isolated testified later this weekend the next. today, mr. trump spent most of his time on the stand putting distance between himself and the questionable financial statements that are at the heart of this case. as a reminder -- attorney general letitia james alleges -- that his top executives, --

by billions of dollars. and the judge in this case, judge arthur engoron has already ruled that fraud was committed, so what is left to be decided here is how much of the trumps are going to pay for that fraud? joining me now is suzanne craig, investigative journalist, one of the lead reporters in the new york times, pulitzer prize-winning investigation into trump's finances. sue, it's great to see, you thanks for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> so donald trump jr., how plausible is it that he really didn't know what was going on with the company finances? >> i find it very unlikely, i mean, anything is possible, but this is somebody who was a senior officer of the company, making the lost data that we have and the york times obtained a lot of their tax information to -- once he went into the white house. substantial increase from what he was making, it was not how much more responsibility he was going to be taking or taking on.

he was put in as a trustee when donald trump became president, set up a trust. and the idea was that don junior and eric his brother would go and would be essentially overseeing the company. eric wasn't the trustee, but don jr. was. eric has been probably more involved in -- when in the company -- put john junior had this very simple -- >> what is your traditions the attitude is -- more to come tomorrow -- what's your expectation in terms of the attitude the prosecution is going to take here, and also, what is your expectation for eric trump? who by all outside assessments actually knows even more than don jr. knows? >> right. they are not created equal in terms of the roles with the company, i think with don jr. today he, stepping back now, in the weeks before leading up to this, he hasn't been a presence in terms of a lot of the

conversations, just about how much he was involved. we are not hearing people say i went to eric where i went to donald trump jr. or -- you are hearing i went to eric trump and i went to ivanka. it comes up to decisions that were made. but he's still, you, know his role in the financial statements, we are gonna get into them tomorrow. it's gonna do at the end of the day, it was interesting, he had a very friendly demeanor for most of the day. the attorney general was taking a very aggressive stance. the lawyer that was representing the attorney general. the, end when they got down to some questions about his role in those financial statements, those are the statements that were submitted to the financial institutions, they are at the heart of this case and showing that they submitted false documents to financial institutions. in the statements, the question was how much did he and was he involved? and how much do you know? he walked right away, i didn't have any moment, that's where we hire lawyers for. and then kind of just walked back a bit and said i may have had them but i didn't know that what i was saying was going into the calculations for

financial statements. so he really threaded that. so i think that that's where we're gonna hear more of that tomorrow. i think a lot more got aggressive questioning on that issue. and then erik will be really interesting, because eric has really been the member of the family that has been running this organization. >> the organization. >> really has been -- and you hear a lot about people's dealings with eric trump leading up until now, i think he is going to take a fair bit of time for the attorney general to go through this. it's gonna be a real focus. >> ivanka has had her role in this effectively thrown out by an appellate court. but she is testifying. and it sounds like it is an open question, because donald trump, donald trump junior and eric trump would be the ones effectively prevented from doing business if judge arthur engoron decides -- management of the trump organization could be transferred to ivanka trump. is that right? if she chooses that option? >> i am not in that count.

i mean, i don't know. and so, i mean, i've heard that. i don't know how it is going to play. i think it is going to be such a long time. because i think we have to remember, even when this trial is done, and there will be a, number there will be a penalty. it's gonna go to an appeals, court it's gonna take a long time to play out. in the meantime, there is a receiver over the company. >> right. >> and that receiver will be there to monitor their business. because eventually some assets may have to be sold to meet that penalty, which could be 250 million. it could -- there was an interesting before don jr. got up that was pretty dense stuff to listen to. but the expert who was speaking to how much of damages should be was up this morning. and he had said, because of the fraudulent nature, the documents that were submitted, they got favorable terms on loans just on four properties that came to within $160 million. >> wow. >> that's the stuff the judge

is going to be looking over when -- >> considering -- >> -- not only is this the company that they have all worked for, pretty much their entire lives, except for a year or two in the ivanka's life. whatever is left will be their inheritance. there's a lot of stake here, not just in terms of, this is a family business for them, and all they really know. it's going to affect not only what they inherit. it's going to affect their descendants. this is money that is transferred through generations. >> we should also say, it's an open question about how liquid donald trump himself is. the post reports that trump reported income earning around 14.8 million in paid speeches in -- collecting 250,000 from the log cabin republicans, about two point 3,000,004 for speeches from the american freedom tour. he's selling nfts, which, i think our polling in 5 million according to this. these are large numbers for all of us. will for donald trump, that he is a billionaire, is making speeches for $250, 000, which

suggests to me that he needs cash, sue. >> we don't know what is actual walking around money is. we know he owns a number of businesses. the new york times, in 2020, got many years of his corporate and individual tax returns and -- a lot of his businesses lose money. so, they are worth money. golf courses. golf courses aren't worth as much. but he's got some valuable assets. but he's also pumping capital into those. and they are losing money. what you are seeing here -- and when i read this it's very much akin to he has got around the country, he's got businesses. but then he's also got his licensing deals that -- he licenses his name and he gets a one time fee. those are very indicative because -- >> trump steaks, trump vodka, trump ties. >> that's sort of thing, you are right. and speaking fees sort of remind me of -- liv golf tournaments, and some courses. that's the sort of stuff that is great.

because it just comes in the door and can be used to either plug holes and -- or whatever else he wants. but -- the most part for his money but we don't have a sense of just walking around money. >> -- and is paying out damages money. right? >> that question -- >> $250 million. that's a lot of speeches to the log cabin rock republicans. >> yes, and it's not taxable if it happens. -- >> which donald trump does not want to hear, not taxable. suzanne craig, thanks for helping understand a complicated set of testimony here. thank you, sue. still to come -- the president, president biden confronted by a protester over the israel hamas more, as the democratic party faces serial -- 's fabulist -- faces some music. faces to music in the house of representatives. what happened there is next.

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republican congressman george santos of new york called up a reporter of the new york times and in the course of the 45 minute conversation this happened. i'll give you one story that no one talks about, santos replied.

for telling me how he's five-year-old niece disappeared from playground in queens, only to be located 40 minutes later on a -- with two chinese men. santos said the incident was the subject of an active police investigation, implying heavily that might have been in retaliation for his vocal stance against the chinese communist party. so you think it was china, i asked, clarifying. look i don't want to go into, like, conspiracy theory, santos said, but, you know, if the shoe fits, right? the new york times reporter here, naturally, looked into santos's story, and a. high-ranking police official said that officers had been called in a investigated an incident. but they had no evidence of chinese communist party involvement, or kidnapping it all. we found nothing at all to suggest it's true, the official said. i would lean into, he made it up. he made it up. it has been nearly a year since

that new york times reporter and her colleagues for first started looking into newly elected congressman george santos and uncovered the extent to which mr. santos has been making it up. from lies about graduating from college is that had no record of his attendance, to lies about having worked a top tier wall street firms, that's in addition to a slew of improbable anecdotes, producing a failed broadway musical, or claiming that he had employees who had been killed in the pulse nightclub shooting. and then it was a criminal charge in brazil for allegedly forging signatures on checks that he stole from a elderly man. prosecutors charged san jose with 14 counts of wire fraud, money, fraud death to public funds, and lying to the house of representatives. santos pleaded not guilty to those charges, but last month santos was hit with ten additional federal charges in a superseding indictment, including conspiracy, wire fraud, false statements, falsification of records,

aggravated identity theft, and credit card fraud. indictment alleges santos obtain the personal identity and financial information of individuals that had contributed to his campaign and then called their access devices to be charged repeatedly without authorization for santos's benefit. all too which santos has pleaded not guilty. and that led to five new york republican congressman backing a resolution to expel george santos from congress. and yet, presented with the opportunity to finally expel a federally indicted serial fabulist from their ranks in the united states congress, the vote failed, 179 to 213, earlier this evening. a majority of republicans chose to stand by the serial liar and alleged criminal. only 24 of them voted to expel santos from their ranks. 31 democrats also broke ranks

and voted to let santos stay in congress, for what reason, we do not know. but for now the guy who has been something of an emblem of the chaos that is republican -led house, that guy will be sticking around. we're gonna talk about that and what is happening right now in the democratic party, coming up next. only $41 on dealdash. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. you know that feeling of having to rewash dishes that didn't get clean? i don't. cascade platinum plus has me doing dishes... differently. scrub? soak? nope. i just scrape, load and i'm done. only platinum plus is bigger.

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( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. >> earlier tonight, at a campaign event in minnesota, president biden began speaking about the israel hamas war, calling the conflict incredibly

complicated. and this is what happened next. >> mister president -- jewish people, as a rabbi, i need you to call for a cease-fire now. >> the protester was rabbi jessica rosenberg. she is a member of the group jewish voice for peace, which has been organizing jewish led pro cease-fire protests across the country, part of a drumbeat of groups calling for one. 18 house members have signed on to a resolution calling for a cease-fire in gaza. all of them are democrats. all of them are people of color. but president biden in the vast majority of the democratic party have rejected those calls. and the administration has instead supported what they call a humanitarian pause to allow more aid into gaza. so far, israel has given no sign that it intends to pause its military operation any time soon. prime minister netanyahu instead said this week, this is a time for war. now, the divide inside the

democratic party he reflects a broader generational divide on this issue. a quinnipiac poll out today finds that 64% of democrats support president biden's approach toward israel. but when it comes to voters under the age of 35, a key democratic constituency, only 25% support biden's approach. and this debate is now poised to become a real flash point in next year's election. the new york times reports that pro israel groups are weighing supporting primary challenges to several of the more outspoken congressional critics of israel's military response to the hamas terror attacks. joining me now is michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for the new york times. michelle, you have written so thoughtfully about this. this moment that we find ourselves in. and i wonder what you make of biden's management of this. again, i do think it is complicated. but he was very clear at the outset, where he believed americas allegiances lay. and has refused to outline any

kind of redline for israel in terms of its bombardment and -- of gaza. i would do what you make of the fact that it appears to be costing him among parts of the key democratic base. >> there's two questions here, right? there's a substantive question whether his handling of the crisis can be defended, and then there's the other question of how he can and will it in a way that's politically wise. those two things aren't necessarily the same thing. look, i think that obviously his strategy of holding bibi close and embracing israel and showing a united front in public and then me leading a lot about how he's pressuring israel in private, doing his best to restrain it in private, in order for that to seem credible to people, they are has to be some indication of israeli restraint, besides just this tiny trickle of 25, 30 trucks coming in over the

border from egypt. and so i think he said that, he said that instead of calling for a cease-fire, meaning he supports a call for a. humanitarian pause. he needs to be, i think, making that call much more forcefully, making, putting much more visible pressure on israel to stop some of the rampages that we are seeing in the west bank. doing more, i think, visibly, not just leaking that you are doing it behind the scenes. to stop the scenes of -- or, if not stop, at least to mitigate the scenes of unimaginable horror. >> yeah, unimaginable carnage, which is not to say that what happened in israel was not unimaginable, but the death toll, if we are to believe the statistics we have been given, is absolutely staggering in gaza. michelle, there's also the question of what happens inside the democratic party here. democrats in congress are less in a position of power to change what israel is doing, but it is still a very real the

debate in congress, what the party on the whole should do. i think that there is something to this idea that those who are speaking out against israel's actions, all of them thus far in congress or our people of color. you look at the way in which the movement to support the citizens of palestine is intersects with the social justice movement. i think a lot of people aren't aware of the convention of these two movements. the new york times reports biden and democrats face new resistance from an energized faction of his party that views the palestinian cause as an extension of the racial and social justice movements that dominated american politics in the -- of 2020. that the killing of mike brown, in some ways is catalytic for a broader thinking of how brown people in this country are treated. and on this planet. arab american support. arab americans willing to vote

for biden in 2020 is 59%. october this year, 17%. what do you make of that, michelle? >> look, i think, obviously, there are different problems. there's a sort of identity aryan problem, and then there is the generational divide. the generational divide makes sense. there's an older generation, biden's generation, for whom israel was a socialist country. israel, and israel for a long time saw itself -- and four time was seen by others we've seen as a anti colonialist project against the british empire. the younger people have no memory of that. they have no memory of an israel whose leaders weren't openly elimination is eliminationist -- incredibly racist characters that he has around him. and then meanwhile you had, i think, the pro palestinian movement has done a very good job of trying to link their own struggle, which is not

necessarily analogous in all its particulars, to racial justice struggles in america, but i think that they have been very, very good at the halting these grassroots connections, making these analogies. there's murals of george floyd in palestine, and so i think for a lot of young people, especially because this is confusing, and the history in many ways, it's a hall of mirrors of claims and counterclaims, and so people look for analogies. and they look for trusted voices. i think for a lot of young people, both what they are learning in school, what they or landing if they are going to social justice protests, and what they're learning from their peers is, it is a sort of total abhorrence of the current government of israel that many cases ends up extending into sort of broader anti-zionism.

that is a bigger problem that than i think biden's political team can necessarily address, but they can do things to narrow the divide. one, i think, by showing that their strategy is at least they're in bearing some fruit. then also maybe by standing up aipac, the american israeli public affairs committee which is targeting some of these members of the squad, who have tried to walk a fine line on israel. who have condemned these horrific massacres by hamas, who have condemned the explosion of antisemitism but at the same time insist on the legitimacy of palestinian national aspirations and human rights. >> michelle goldberg, this is such a complicated topic. i keep saying that word. but it is complicated, and it's deeply sensitive, and you put it into context so brilliantly. it's really -- thank you for your time, and thank you for your thoughts on this. >> thank you. >> still ahead, for the first time since the war between israel and hamas broke out on

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oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. >> ramona is a 71-year-old wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. prosthetics expert. she is a resident of seattle, where she worked for years as a lecture at the university of washington. since she retired in 2017, she has made frequent trips to gaza to volunteer at the palace on children's relief fund, helping children who lost their limbs due to violence in the region. and she was there in gaza win war broke out after hamas launched a terrorist attack against israel last month. miss okumura have been staying in the united nations compound in gaza, but she had effectively been trapped there for 26 days. today we can confirm that ms. okumura is one of five american aid workers allowed to evacuate, gaza crossing the rafah border into egypt.

she is on a list of about 500 people permitted to leave the area as part of the deal between egypt, hamas, and israel. one that was mediated by qatar and american officials. >> today thanks to concerted american leadership we are in a situation where safe passage for wounded palestinians and foreign nationals to exit gaza has started. american -- citizens are able to exit today as part of the first group of probably over 1000. we will see more this process going on in the coming days. working nonstop to get americans out of gaza as soon and safely as possible. >> joining me now is my friend and colleague ayman mohyeldin, host of ayman here on msnbc, who has reported extensively from gaza. including during the 2014 war. ayman mohyeldin, it's great to see. >> likewise. >> 26 days. for a while these americans could have been considered

being held hostage by -- they were being held hostage in gaza, if not directly by hamas. was this american intervention that made this happen? why did it take so long? it's almost a month for people who were medical professionals, helping and staying when at the united nations compounds. you would imagine they would be among the very first to leave. >> i think the position, as i understood from people that were involved in trying to broker this, at least on the egyptian side and certainly on hamas through intermediaries that are mostly in doha, was that they wanted to see not just dual nationals leave. there was something that they felt was -- very sinister about saying, oh, foreign nationals can leave. but the rest of the population palestinian population that is being bombarded, killed, and starve to death, can stay. -- the exodus of wounded palestinians. so that was a long convoy of cars. or ambulances, i should say.

that were carrying palestinian children, some of the most critically injured people, life and death type of situations in those ambulances that were allowed to leave as well. it was a humanitarian relief for as many people as possible, and not just billed as the foreign nationals that were allowed to get out of gaza while everyone else stayed behind and were bombarded to death. >> those images you see are wrenching. and those are the lucky ones. >> yeah. >> there's a huge question about how you even begin to choose when you have suffering in the order of magnitude that we have heard happening in gaza. we know that jabalia refugee camp, idf launched a strike on that refugee camp. there are 116,011 refugees there. israel said they killed him a mosque commander, ibrahim biari, in that strike. united nations is saying that the attack on that refugee camp could amount to a war crime. ayman mohyeldin.

>> one of many allegations that i've made throughout the past several days. here is why. in part because if you look at the way the bombardment has been taking place across the gaza strip, nowhere, and i mean nowhere, is safe. if you told people to move to the south. the south was bombed. they have taken shelter in certain places like a church. the church was bombed. a refugee camp or people think they might be safe, they are bombed. so at the end of the day, the challenge that has become very apparent, and what international lawyers and human rights organizations are talking about, is proportionality, and to what extent you expect the people in this camp to be aware of what is happening to them, or what is happening underneath them at any given moment, if you are on the face of it accepting the israeli argument that they were doing this to target a single individual. but keep in mind, and we have seen this, we've seen surveillance video, and i had this on my show over the weekend will boy withstanding adjacent to the building, the building gets knocked out and ultimately the child is buried underneath the rubble.

that's why people use the term collective punishment. you are not aware of who else is in your vicinity it any given moment. and israel says they warned people when they tell people to leave. in some cases it's five minutes, in some cases it's a phone call. they've been dropping leaflets. but people feel like they don't have anywhere to go that is safe. we've spoken to a lot of people. for example, the al jazeera arabic bureau chief who was killed. he heeded israel's warming warnings and moved his family out of the gaza strip and moved them to the southern part. what happened? the building next to where his family was seeking refuge was targeted by israel and he lost his wife, a daughter, a son, and grandson. it's a story that's repeating itself time and time again, every day, throughout this war. that innocent people, civilians, men, women, and children, elderly, are paying the price, and there is no single safe space in the entire gaza strip.

>> you focus just on the lives of children who have been lost, 3600 children reportedly killed. again, from the palestinian health authorities. >> which would be the equivalent of 200,000 american children killed in three weeks. we think 3000, maybe that is a proportional number for what has happened, but to put it in perspective, as a pcrf, the palestinian children's relief fund founder, told me this week on my show, that would be the equivalent of 216,000 american children killed in the span of three weeks. >> we'll leave it on that note, my friend. ayman, thank you for your time and thoughts and perspective on all this. that is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word, with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> we're gonna be joined tonight by tennessee state representative justin pearson, who, as it happens, is a graduate of bowdoin college in maine. so he has been really struck by what happened in maine and