sounding the alarm of muslim americans who may be abandoning support due to the israel-hamas war. is this a problem? >> they're aware they need to keep their coalition together, which is a tenuous, you know, group of constituencies that they all have to deal with. arab-americans and young voters are deeply concerned about what is happening in this conflict in the middle east. i think that this is something that they are aware of. even last night when we saw president joe biden call for a pause, that was sort of a calibration, the way he's talked about this. i think in some ways, to acknowledge this is a very complicated issue. even people within his own party are really upset. >> the margins expect to be slim in states like michigan. if voters stay home, that could be the difference. terrific reporting this morning. politicalreporter elena schneider. thank you. thank you for getting up "way

too early" with us. "morning joe" starts now. biden signed an executive order to control a.i. there is no one i trust more to save us from the rise of the machines than joe biden. as long as none of those machines is a bicycle. he's fine. he's fine. >> "the late show" having fun with president biden's executive action earlier this week on artificial intelligence. we'll have a lot more to get to on that this morning. including donald trump jr. taking the stand. >> how did that go? >> we'll get legal analysis on his testimony, which i think will continue now. plus, the latest out of the middle east. more wounded palestinians and foreign nationals are leaving gaza. it comes as there is a new threat from hamas. and on capitol hill,

republican george santos survives an effort to expel him from congress. that's thanks to some help from democrats. meanwhile, it appears republicans are finally getting fed up with senator tommy tuberville's antics. we'll show you what his colleagues had to say on the senate floor. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, november 2nd. does this week feel long, just a smidge? >> i was sure today was friday. do i have something on my jacket? >> just breakfast. anyhow -- >> it was going to be brunch. >> no. joe and me, the host of "ay too early," jonathan lemire. and special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. and contributing columnist at "the washington post," george conway joining us this morning. good to have you. >> i have to say, willie, we're obviously going to go to israel

and gaza and everything that's happening there, but, my gosh, last night, senate republicans just finally had it with tommy tuberville. >> yeah. >> you had military veterans like joni ernst and others getting on and just eviscerating him. held him on the floor for five hours. you know, at one point, a republican said, he goes, "how dumb." he didn't say, "how dumb can you be?" he said, "how dumb can we be? president xi is loving this, tuberville. vladimir putin is loving what you're doing. you are aiding and abetting the enemy" is what, basically, his own republican party was saying. >> yeah. you had senators -- senator tuberville suggested that military is bloated and these are desk jockeys. you had one of the senatos we'll hear in a second walking through who exactly who the men and women are.

to quote the great alex khorasan, our executive producer, quoting "die hard," "welcome to the party, pal." where have these senators been the last several months? they've been saying privately, sometimes in public, that they don't like it but doing nothing about it. last night, senator tommy tuberville of alabama faced backlash from members of his party who challenged his blockade. they attempted to approve 61 military promotions by voice vote for more than four hours. tuberville rejected each nomination, as his colleagues' frustrations grew. >> we have done the best that we can to honor the request of a fellow senator, that these nominations be brought to the floor and voted on individually. and i really respect men of their word. i do not respect men who do not

honor their word. >> no matter whether you believe it or not, senator tuberville, this is doing great damage to our military. i don't say that lightly. if this is the norm, who the hell wants to serve in the military when your promotion can be canned based on something you had nothing to do with? >> simply, in my opinion, an abuse of the powers we have as senators, to say if there is something we vehemently disagree with, we're going to use that power to hold up the promotion of over 350 men and women in our military. >> these are the people who are kicking in doors in fallujah, shooting terrorists in the face, and we have people saying they're desk jockeys and not warriors? that's just ridiculous. it's ridiculous. it's insulting. the chinese admirals and their military, they're probably watching this debate right now going, i can't believe my luck. i can't believe our luck. maybe we should attack taiwan

tomorrow. we're going to look back at this episode and just be stunned at what a national security suicide mission this became. >> senator sullivan served in the united states marine corps for years. joni ernst served, as well. you see the frustration. we've been hearing it privately. sometimes you'll hear mitch mcconnell say politely, i disagree with what tuberville is doing, but it's how the system was set up. for some reason yet, the dam broke, they came out against tuberville. >> i think a lot has to do with the fact, jonathan lemire, you had an episode with the marine corps commandant. i guarantee you every one of the senators were, first of all, angry behind the scenes all along. >> yeah. >> i guarantee you, every one of those senators got calls from the pentagon, going, what in the holy hell are you guys doing? we've got guys being sent to the hospital now because -- like,

one job is enough to just absolutely rip somebody apart. you're making them do two, three, four jobs because of this clown from alabama, that even people in alabama don't support? you know the pressure coming from the pentagon with one of their own being sent to the hospital on a health issue, i mean, you know it is getting intense now. >> yeah. that marine corps leader hospitalized over the weekend. he'd spoken openly days previously that he is working two jobs and simply couldn't do it. it was too much. now, we saw him have this health episode. my understanding is, talking to a few republicans involved with this yesterday, that played a role. as, of course, the escalating crisis in the middle east. this is not a moment where the u.s. military cannot be at anything other than full readiness. we have two aircraft carriers in the region. of course, there are still the war in ukraine and concerns about china and taiwan, as well. we saw from lindsey graham, who, of course, is a hawk and always

been pro military, he was very firm. dan sullivan from alaska, the strongest voice there. mitt romney and others, all taking shot after shot after shot at tuberville, who says he is staying with this despite the onslaught. >> joni ernst spoke quietly but gave one of the harshest digs when she finished, by saying, "i don't respect men who don't keep their word." >> yeah. well, i mean, it really is an absurd situation. somebody -- maybe they have been telling the guy, you can't play football without a roster, but he is sitting there and blocking everything. partly, it's the senate rules we've all heard about. also, i've wondered why it is that all of these officers have to have their commissions -- they have to be confirmed by the senate. it does not make any sense. as i understand it, the constitution, the appointments clause of the constitution only requires principal executive officers and, essentially,

cabinet heads, to be confirmed by the senate. by law, congress can say that everyone else can be selected by just the president alone or even by the courts of law, depending on what it is. here, you have thousands of people up for nomination, and it doesn't make sense. it opportunity add up with the senate rules that say one senator can insist on debate on every single one of those. i mean, the rules as they're set up now depend on good faith, and what we're seeing here is not good faith. >> absolutely no good faith whatsoever. it has nothing to do with the military. it is gutting readiness. >> it is not an exaggeration. >> senator sullivan said, we're going to look back on this, and it'll be a catastrophic suicide mission we've put on military on. unfortunately, you have that happening in the republican -- with the republicans in the senate, with tommy tuberville, and then in the house, you've

had house members who constantly eviscerate and attack and beat down the united states military, hate the united states military, hate the generals that run the united states military, hate mark milley when he was chairman of the joint chiefs, was so disrespectful to him, it was sickening. it made me sick. nobody, nobody, not even the most left-wing radical when i was on armed services, ever treated a general or an admiral with such little respect. then you add on top of that, you actually had republicans in the past saying they wished the united states military was more like the russian military. the same russian military that tried to bum rush us in syria. minutes later, 200 were dead. guess what? you know what the specialsir?

welcome to the party. do we want our troops to be like russia? let me answer that, hell no. ask any general. not only in america but anywhere across the world, do you want your troops to be like the russian troops or like american troops? you know, i remember, i remember way back, 40, i don't know how many years ago i was in college, maybe it was, what was it, aut 6 or 7? i don't know. i remember then, it was a political science course on soviet history. you know, we were talking about cold war and everything. this professor happened to have a lot of experience dealing with the soviets and goes, "they lok at our soldiers, regardless of what you hear, they think they're 7 feet tall. they'll never say it. they're scared to death of american marines. they want no part of it." do you know what's changed in all that?

nothing! nothing. the chinese are scared of our military. the russians are scared of our military. the north koreans are scared of our military. the world is scared of our military. they quake in fear. the only people that don't seem to respect our military right now are republicans on capitol hill and the guy who is going to be the next president of the united states if the republicans have their way. it is grotesque. they stand alone in the world in their disrespect for the strength and the power and the might of america's armed services. >> put a brand on that. >> well said, sir. beyond the grotesqueness of it, the stupidity of it. there's one thing that pretty much everybody agrees on, republican, democrat, of course, not these knuckleheads, is a respect and a love and a reverence for military. i can go forward to 2024 and basically think about an entire campaign, military for joe

biden, military for democrats. have a campaign called, generally speaking, where i have every general to come forward. as we already have, just come forward and said, "i understand the importance of readiness. i understand the importance of defending our country." >> by the way, i understand better than you, because as the senator said, we were in fallujah. >> yeah. >> we were fighting across afghanistan and in iraq, tommy tuberville, while you were sitting there playing appalachian state. >> while you have the military supporting democrats, that's about as strong as an endorsement. >> by the way, no disrespect to appalachian state at all. some of the best people i know. >> yeah. >> i know. >> they beat north carolina. >> the point is, it's not military. >> right. >> i love appalachian state. some of the best people i know are from appalachian state. just saying. >> good program. >> from auburn, you know, it is a different level, blah, blah, blah, it's not fallujah. go ahead. >> that's the campaign i would

run, generally speaking. have generals talk, here's one side and the other side. because if the republicans lose military, and they've lost law and order, what do they have? they don't have much left. they have nothing left, if i think about what they've been talking about lately. >> overthrowing the government. >> the other thing -- >> they get that. >> -- tommy tuberville is, i don't know where the republican university of stupid performative art is. >> josh hawley. >> whether you're -- >> calling a guy whose mom survived the holocaust an anti-semite and whose family, a great number of them, were lost in the holocaust, calling them an anti-semite yesterday. >> yeah. >> or tuberville. >> matt gaetz, here's the formula. be really stupid, obnoxious, completely off your rocker, get exposure on television, raise money. >> put it on your instagram but only cut the part where you're

insulting the person. >> i don't know where the school is teaching them these things. >> yesterday, josh hawley insults -- >> mayorkas. >> -- a man whose mother survived the holocaust. i think auschwitz. he's so proud of it, he puts it up on his instagram. he is that shameless. >> yeah. >> you know, he should have gone -- if he had any humanity at all -- >> issued an apology. >> any humanity at all, he would have apologized. no humanity. no shame. this is your republican party. >> that's one of the key rules, to donny's point, never apologize. >> yup. >> never apologize. lean into it even when you insult the son of a holocaust survivor. raise money off of it. we had people asking us, how can this be? how can one man hold up the legislation, the promotions in this case? in the united states senate, one senator can hold up anything. now, they usually go around them quickly or the senator has made his or her point and they move

along, but here now, tommy tuberville is standing alone, as we saw yesterday, even among his republican colleagues. the question is, as he makes this stand, choosing against the united states military and its readiness and for abortion, you know, being against abortion so members of the military cannot go state through state to have health care, what is the world thinking as it watches this? what does it look like from london, from europe? what does it look like in the middle east with the crises that are exploding? >> okay. it reminds me of something bob gates, when he was defense secretary, said to me, under president obama, america faces three threats in the world. it faces a rising china, declining russia, and the tlets threat of itself. he meant the dysfunction in american politics. when he was talking to me the beginning of the obama administration, it seemed mild compared to what it is today. tommy tuberville shows no signs of backing down. you now have the consequence of

that, people in military positions who are extremely tired. they are working, as this general who was hospitalized, was working from 5:00 a.m. in the morning until 11:00 p.m. at night working two jobs. you don't make the right kind of decisions in america's best interest working those hours. it's all part of this questioning of america's -- whether america is governable. is this a country that works still? joe and i were talking about this. does it work on guns? work on security? work on a senate level? does it work on being able to keep itself open? on being able to pay its bills? the dysfunction, you know, is something that is slightly, sadly, being baked into the equation amongst america's allies, and i'm sure amongst america's adversaries. that's not a good place to be. you don't want them to say, yeah, this is just more washington dysfunction. we're getting used to it. that's not a great position to be in. >> it is so strange. you usually have -- george,

you'll have countries begin to fall apart, and that'll be leading indicators of a political system starting to collapse because it can't keep up. here, you have the united states military, stronger than any military in the world. if you look at it relative to the rest of the world, this is the strongest position we've been in since 1945, end of world war ii. look at our economy. katty talked about it all the time. we can have rattner talk about it. compared to britain's economy, europe's economy, china's economy, we are light years ahead of everybody right now. fed is doing everything it can do to tamp down and to beat down this economy. can't do it. we just keep growing. i mean, you can look at the education and, yes, woke and you have all these other problems. you've got administrators that won't stand up to ananti-semiti. at the same time, best colleges

and universities on the planet. there is not a close second. everybody across the world sends their kids here if they can because they want them to come to america. we have a crisis on the southern border, and even on the northern border now. why? not because america sucks. not because america is ungovernable. because if you talk to any of those people crossing the border, if you talk to people, you know,migrated here, legally, which is the way we have to do it, get order and do it that way, what will they tell you? they'll tell you what they've told me. they really do believe america's streets are paved with gold. they really do believe america is the last hope for a dying world. they believe it. because compared to what they're living in and where they're living, we still are. yet, why is it, with all these indicators, with teen pregnancy at the lowest rate in 70 years,

with childhood poverty going down, why is it that we have a washington, that we have politicians there that are so unworthy of the nation they govern? >> because people vote for these politicians. that is, to me, the big mystery. we live at a time where the standard of living we have today is as good as any group of human beings has had in human history. >> better. >> i mean, everybody out there, including people who don't live so well, have their fancy google phones and whatever. we have it so good that some people just are looking for something to gripe about. we develop this -- i'm trying to express it -- a form of nihilism. they want institutions torn down

because they don't feel they have enough. they don't have satisfaction in their lives, so they vote for these people. these people cater to them and raise money by catering to their anger and their -- i don't understand the dynamic, but there's a psychology here, a sickness that pervades the country. >> the way it works is, these people that are talking about tearing down institutions because they're not fair to working americans, then get their money, run for office, get elected, tear down america, and -- >> then complain about it. >> -- pass tax cuts that help the billionaires, the multibillionaires. that's insane. all these $25 donations going to all these nihilists that say, "we're going to tear down the government," they don't do anything but help billionaires get even richer. >> yeah. >> it's crazy. >> george santos. >> it's crazy. it is almost like they're all watching something that's

brainwashing them. >> yes. we have a lot more to get to. we're back in 60 seconds. donald trump jr. will be back on the witness stand today in his father's civil fraud trial. we'll go through the testimony he gave yesterday. plus, the voters of new york will ultimately decide how long george santos stays in congress after his fellow republicans -- >> did you see that picture -- >> -- failed to expel -- >> -- of don jr. -- >> -- him from congress. >> -- looked like johnny depp from "blow." >> we'll be back in one minute. >> i love that movie, but there he goes. like a character from the movie. >> we're back in a minute. mr. secretary, what is going on here? is this typical of people who work at dhs? this is an asylum and immigration officer who is posting these, frankly, pro genocidal slogans and images on the day that israelis are being slaughtered in their beds.

what have you done about this? >> mr. chairman, may i? >> if you'd like to have a minute to respond. >> oh, i would. i'm not sure i'll limit it to 60 seconds. >> that's fine. >> number one, what i found despicable is the implication that this language, tremendously odious, actually could be emblematic of the sentiments of the 260,000 men and women of the department of homeland security. number one. number two, senator hawley takes an adversarial approach to me in this question, and perhaps he doesn't know my own background. perhaps he does not know that i am the child of a holocaust survivor. perhaps he does not know that my mother lost almost all her family at the hands of the nazis. and so i find his adversarial tone to be entirely misplaced.

i find it to be disrespectful of me and my heritage, and i do not expect an apology but i did want to say what i just articulated. thank you. move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. when migraine strikes you're faced with a choice. ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating? or push through the pain and symptoms? with ubrelvy, there's another option. one dose works fast to eliminate migraine pain treat it anytime, anywhere. without worrying where you are or if it's too late. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. allergic reactions to ubrelvy can happen.

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clip up on his instagram and says, "hawley smokes mayorkas." what, in the ovens, josh? is that what you're saying, seriously? no shame. then he goes on fox news, and they do a victory lap about him attacking a holocaust survivor's son. that is sick. that's exactly how they get away with it. >> yeah. >> people that are watching are too stupid in this case to actually see that he is attacking holocaust survivors' families. in the middle of the greatest anti-semitic campaign against jews, where there is a war, worldwide war against jews. >> he knows what he is doing. >> he attacks a jew and is shameless about it. then he goes on fox news, and

they do a victory lap about it. >> anyone with any integrity, as we were just saying, when that moment happened, would have said, i'm so sorry. i did not know about your family's history. let's talk about the policy. of course, that's not who josh hawley is. >> probably did know. >> he was there to post that clip. i smoked mayorkas, now i'll go on fox news for a touchdown dance about how i smoked mayorkas. >> would you really, after you learned that his mother survived concentration camp and her family was burned in the ovens of auschwitz, would you really say, "i smoked mayorkas"? would anybody -- like, it's really -- >> sick. >> it's sick. >> it's sick. because they know. he knows. >> this is how it works. they're in a safe bubble. from a red state, a safe district, he goes on fox news, he can post an alternate reality and raise money all of it. that's how he will get elected next time and raise money.

and, to our point, this is the playbook donald trump taught him. it's don't apologize and be utterly shameless. no humanity or humility. >> there has to be a standard. if you want to fight him on the border, fair game. go after the policy. >> we'll do that. >> go at it. >> we'll all do that, then sit with hannity and talk about the border. to your point, in the context of what's happening in this country right now with anti-semitism, what is happening in the world, to go celebrate an attack on a man who just told you his mother survived the holocaust, it's sick. deeply sick. >> his voters don't know the truth. they're watching fox. >> they see the clip. >> they don't know. they think they're getting news. they think they're getting information. >> yup. >> anyhow -- >> i have to say -- >> -- it's the truth. >> -- on the same network a couple weeks ago, you had someone say elections don't matter. >> unchecked. >> we have to resort to

violence. >> did anyone at the table say anything? >> we have to do what the north did in the civil war, resort to violence. elections don't matter. >> think about it. >> that's after they paid $787 million. that's after tucker carlson. that's before the $1 billion settlement coming up before them. they still let people go on their air saying elections don't matter, we're going to have to resort to violence. then they sit there and go, "oh, well, you know, they're not to be taken seriously." you know, like tucker's lawyer said, "oh, nobody believes him. nobody believes him. no, you're not supposed to believe him." yeah, well, a lot of people did. four cops are dead. >> okay. donald trump jr. took the stand yesterday as a witness in the new york $250 million civil fraud trial. in his testimony that lasted just under an hour and a half, he insisted -- >> who does he look like there, willie? >> okay, no. >> who does he look like?

>> i'm asking. >> it's not the -- >> that doesn't look like him, that sketch. >> serpica? >> oh. >> he insisted he never wrote on his father's financial statements. some of this might be funny. he said nobody said anything. >> i'm curious what he looks like here. >> ringo starr. >> he relied on other staff members to verify the accuracy of documents. trump jr. is an executive vice president of the trump organization and acted as a trustee of a trust set up from former president trump's assets while donald trump was in office. "the associated press" reports at least one of the annual financial statements bore language saying the trustees are responsible for the document, but donald trump jr. said he didn't recall ever working on any of the financial statements and had no specific knowledge of them. don jr. was the first of four

members of the family to testify and will return to the stand today. eric trump is also scheduled to testify today. ivanka trump and former president donald trump will take the snd next week. donald trump was not in attendanceor his son's testimony but did react on his truth socl page, again calling out the judge in the case. quote, leave my children alone, engoron. you are a disgrace to the legal profession. george conway, where do we begin? >> it's hard. >> first of all, did they glean anything from him, from the attorney general's side? >> i think what they're trying to show is that nobody is taking responsibility for these financial statements. >> but is that -- >> well, yeah. i mean, the way it's supposed to work is -- >> you know they weren't going to take responsibility. >> right. they just point at the accountants or don't recall things. >> blame, yeah. >> in a criminal case, that might work because you have to prove criminal intent beyond a

reasonable doubt. the problem is, this is a civil case. the statements have already been found to be false. >> right. >> this isn't going to help. the judge can make findings and say, i don't believe that he didn't remember that. i don't believe that he was relying on the accountants. the story doesn't make any sense. >> or that was negligent, if he didn't remember. >> right. it doesn't even matter. he can find beyond a -- all you have to do is find a 50.01%, more likely than not, that there was fraud committed, and they knowingly did that. it's easy to do, and the judge will make credibility findings and say these people are all liars. that's not really about -- >> so the defense here, as we've seen in other cases, is they'll try to delay it, the trump side. canexpensive. if he gets his punishment, they

decide on a certain amount of money, how long can the trump side drag it out? this is the decision on how much he pays, correct? sort of been found -- >> there will be an appeal. the part of the judgment that has already been issued that cancels the business certificates of the trump companies has been stayed, understandably. once you do that, you can't unscramble the eggs. >> mm-hmm. >> they probably will get a stay pending appeal, but you have to post a large bond. it may take a couple of years for this to pan out in the appellate courts, but there's already been an interim receiver appointed. >> right. how is that impacting the business? >> well, they basically can't move assets around, can't hide them. they're stuck. that's one of the reasons, i think -- >> why he is so mad. >> -- donald is upset and showing up at the trial every day. basically, he's in financial handcuffs already.

who is going to loan money to these people? they're going to go out of business. >> george conway, thank you very much. nice to have you on. >> thank you, george. ahead on "morning joe," the standalone aid bill for israel proposed by house republicans slashes funding for the irs and adds billions to the national debt. steve rattner has charts on that. plus, we'll be joined by democratic congressman dan goldman, who says the newly minted speaker has chosen to play cynical games by conditioning emergency aid to israel by cuts to the domestic budget. >> which drives up the deficit, which is what republicans do best. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. new emerged fizz when you throw them back. and who doesn't love a good throwback? [sfx: video game] emergen-c crystals.

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bill, they just couldn't continue spending america into debt, even though they were the ones spending america into debt. >> that seems responsible. >> they said, we're going to -- i guess they're going to change their way. like alcoholics, this is some part of a seven-step process, 12 or 13. >> okay. >> first, admit you have a problem. >> right. >> they haven't done that yet. they're like, we're going to pay for this israeli aid, even though it's never been done before. only problem is it adds to the debt. >> oh, that doesn't really do it. >> that's what republicans do. trump republicans, the biggest debt spenders in u.s. history. >>se republicans' bill for aid israel would add billions to the deficit, that's according to the budget office. >> you know what i wish we could do, willie?

go to the southwest wall. >> joining us -- [ applause ] >> yeah, live from the southwest wall. >> whoo! >> from the southwest wall to your town, ladies and gentlemen, steve rattner. >> welcome to "morning joe." >> he can't handle this. >> steve rattner, so good to see you here. steve, first of all, they lie and say, "we're going to pay for the israeli aid bill by cutting from the irs, but it'll balance each other out." tell me, in fact, what does it do? >> joe, you kind of stole my thunder, and i think you can probably come over here and do this as well as i could at this point. >> no, please. >> i heard you talk about this. but let's go back and explain how the tax system works, or doesn't, and then we'll get to the impact on the budget. so the irs collects $2.8 trillion a year, roughly, in taxes. besides that, they also collect $68 billion from what they call enforcement. we'd think of it as audits.

but they've calculated in a study they've done that there is another $428 billion out there of taxes that don't get paid. call it tax avoidance. you can call it tax evasion, whatever you want. people who don't report all their income. guess who it is who doesn't report all their income, in particularly large amounts, the wealthy. this is by lowest income, highest income folks. what percent of their income they don't report. down here in the bottom 50%, there's pretty much a high level of tax compliance. when you get over here to the top 5% and the top 1%, it is a different picture. you're talking about people who are not reporting over 20% of their income to the irs by various means of how they fill out their tax returns. these are folks who make over $600,000 a year here. there is a lot of money out there for the irs to collect. >> and the 1% also very odd.

you have billionaires not paying money. you've got some of the richest americans not paying, avoiding taxes. this is exactly who the republicans are trying to protect, right, steve? >> it's who they're trying to protect, yes. they're not paying taxes. what the irs is trying to do is essentially allow them to continue to not pay their taxes. >> steve, let me just -- going to the next chart, what's so fascinating is, there are a lot of times you put money into agencies, and people complain you don't see a return. as your next chart is going to point out, investments in irs enforcement, especially when it's been underfunded for years, will actually pay for itself. >> joe, i really think you should just come over here to the southwest wall and do this. >> i'm too shy. >> all right. too shy, yes, i know that. very quiet guy. let's look back at the irs' audit rates. these are what percent of results they audit by income.

highest income down to lowest income, back to 2010. back in 2010, if you were in the upper income, the $10 million or more, you had over a 20% chance of getting audited. today, the chance of getting audited is under 5%. you can see the other curves for lower incomes have gone down, also, but it's gone down the most for the wealthy. why has it gone down the most for the wealthy? it costs the most to audit them. as we'll see, the irs has been short of funds, so they've cut back on auditing the wealthy, which, obviously, produces less revenue. so to joe's point, let's talk about what the irs gets back. for every dollar the irs spends auditing, somebody in the top 0.1%, $9 million of income, roughly, a year, the irs gets back $6.30. one dollar of spending yields $6.30 of revenue. a bit less for the top 1%. bottom 50%, actually, irs loses

a little bit of money auditing those folks. but for the reasons i said, because it is so time intensive to audit the wealthy, they tend to cut back on those audits the most when they have budget issues. >> because they have budget issues. can you also speak really quickly to how these budget cuts have made the irs just one of the least efficient bureaucracies in washington, d.c., and how that usually falls, that usually impacts working americans who can't afford lawyers, who can't afford accountants, who can't afford minders to take care of their irs audits or to fight to get their refunds back? if you're a working american and the irs owes you a tax refund, good luck. good luck getting somebody on the phone that's going to help get that money back, or good luck with letters, emails,

whatever. it is like a lot of agencies in washington, d.c., it is operating with computers out of the 1980s. >> yeah. because we have been -- because the republicans, in particular, have been trying to starve the irs' budget, it forced them over the years to cut back the number of agents they had. things like call times shot up. the amount of time you've been sitting on the phone just trying to get somebody to talk to you went way up. here's what happened. this is after adjusting for inflation. the irs' budget was pretty steady until about 2010. in the course of a bunch of other budget agreements, republicans succeeded in cutting the budget, resulting in this cutting of the irs, this head count. now, joe biden in the inflation reduction act won $80 billion of new funding for the irs over the next ten years. the republicans have been carving this back. first in the debt ceiling debate that we had in june, they got $20 billion cut out of the irs

budget. now, the johnson bill would cut another $14 billion out of the irs budget. you'd still have an increase, but it'd be a much, much smaller increase. joe, as you said in your lead-in, so here's the net-net of the whole thing. the johnson bill would cut $14 billion. it'd offset the aid to israel we've been talking about. they would lose, the treasury would lose $27 billion of revenue. at the end, the deficit would actually go up by $12 billion because they're cutting this funding from the irs. >> yeah. another $12 billion added on to the deficit with the new speaker's first act. all right, steve. >> well, that's depressing. thank you. >> the thing that really has been connected here, steve, actually, when you look at all these charts together, it is very clear, republicans want to slash irs funding because they want the line to continue going

down on the richest 1% of americans actually getting audited. and since they cheat disproportionately on their taxes, those are billions and billions of dollars more that are kept from balancing the budget. >> yup. $428 billion out there every year to be collected if we were to fund the irs the way it should be funded, instead of what the republicans are trying to do. >> all right. >> steve rattner on the southwest wall, look at that shot. rattner's charts. it's kind of like -- >> monster, isn't it? we have to play wiffle ball in here. i know we wanted to go to an mlb network -- home plate, first, second. rattner's wall. >> you're dragging this out. >> thank you, steve. some news from the world of sports. legendary college basketball coach bobby knight has died. the hall of famer got his start at army in 1985.

>> wow. >> he is best known for his 29 seasons at indiana university, where he led that school to three national championships. the first of those came in 1976 when indiana went undefeated, a feat no team has accomplished since. he'd go on to coach at texas tech for seven seasons before retiring in 2008. knight was the big ten coach of the year five times and a four-time national coach of the year. he was one of only three coaches to have won an ncaa title, nit title, and an olympic gold medal. bob knight was 83 years old. let's bring in college basketball analyst for espn and espn insider, jay billis. best selling author mike lupica. thanks so much for being on this morning to talk about this. jay, i'll start with you. you were playing at duke in the peak years of bob knight at indiana. he won a national championship i think right around your junior or senior year with keith smart and steve alfred and those guys, and then you got to work

alongside him at espn. what are your reflections this morning on coach knight? >> willie, bob knight was an american original. while he was not for everyone, he was a friend of mine. we spent a lot of time together, not only when we worked together, we played a lot of golf, went overseas several times, and, you know, he was one of the greatest coaches ever. when you'd sit and watch practice, he got in and out of situations and dissected the game like in other coach i've ever been around. his ability -- i think he could have coached anything, any sport, and been proficient at it. that's how great he was at breaking things down. but when i said he's not for everyone, at his best, there was nobody better. when he wasn't at his best, i could always understand people that didn't care for him. i never argued with those

people. he was -- he was unique, and i've never met anyone like him. you know, one of the true greats that ever talked a sideline. he was smart. he was engaging. at times, he was uncommonly stubborn and thoughtless. but a very emotional person, and i think that's one of the things that did cause him some problems. you know, when he was let go at indiana, when he was fired in 2000, i don't think it was anger that he had at indiana. i think it was emotional hurt that manifested itself and looked like anger to others, if that makes sense. >> yeah. >> but just an extraordinary coach. >> mike lupica, for people who maybe in more recent years knew bobby knight as the guy who threw the chair across the floor, knew him for the outbursts that they would see, and that's all they knew of

bobby knight, can you talk about, follow-up on what jay said? there we go. that's the moment a lot of people remember. talk about the bobby knight we don't see in videos on youtube or that you can't show in three seconds here, about what he did for kids, what he did for high school students going into college, how he shaped them into champions, and how he did it year after year after year after year, and how even in 1976, he did something that nobody has done since. >> joe, he would have done it the year before if scott may hadn't gotten hurt. they would have gone two years without losing a game. jay wrote a wonderful column last night on espn.com. what he said in the middle of it was, he finally gave up trying to explain to people why he was bob's friend. i knew him for over 40 years. we had a roller coaster

relationship because a lot of people in my world did. his best friend was a sports writer, bob hamill from bloomington. we shared a love of the chip hilton sportsbooks. the great coach, claire bee, who wrote them, had been one of bob knight's mentors. the thing that was so complicated about him and made it so hard to defend, a guy who i believe is as great a basketball coach as ever lived, was a larger than life figure who would sometimes sabotage himself by being smaller than life. that's what he did constantly. but at his best, you talk to his ex-players, and jay knows this far better than i do, they are intensely loyal to him. i spoke to mike woodson, the current indiana coach last night, who was extremely emotional. he said, "i can't speak to what other people think of coach. all i can talk about is what he

meant to me, and what he meant to me is everything." jay knows this in the world in which he lives, college basketball. knight did the winning he did without cheating, and graduating his players when it meant something in college sports. >> here is knight in 1991 during his induction into the basketball hall of fame. >> i've never felt comfortable with the award, coach of the year or coach of anything. i think there is a much more appropriate nomenclature that could be used, and that would be team of the year. because, for the a team to develop to a point where a coach is recognized for what that team has done is an indication that the players, the assistant coaches, everyone involved has really put forth an outstanding effort, and that is truly a team

honor. >> jay, i'm not sure if people outside the basketball world fully understand the legacy he's left because of your coach, coach k, from duke, playing in west point. how significant a figure was coach knight in coach k's life? >> profound. willie, everyone can agree, the relationship that you have with a coach is similar to a parent. you seek the approval. any praise you get from your coach lifts you up. any criticism, you know, kind of weighs you down. coach k had a profound love for coach knight. when i was playing at duke in the final four in 1986, we were playing in the championship game. he brought coach knight in to talk to the team. when knight walked into a room, i mean, he was 6'4", a big man, but his personality filled up

the entire stadium when he spoke to us. i still remember what he said. he said, "remember one thing, boys. nobody remembers who finishes second." we lost by a bucket and finished second, and he was right, but he was a commanding presence. any room he was in, i remember doing a thing with him and bill parcells, who he knew as army, an assistant to blake at army. at the time, parcells was head coach of the dallas cowboys. i was hosting an event with those two, a discussion with them, an event with them. i was in a room with parcells, with a vip thing. and he filled up the whole room. then knight came in. knight filled up the room, and parcells shrank a bit. that's how big a figure he was, especially in the '70s and '80s. there was no more profound influence on the game at that time than bob knight. if there were a mt. rushmore of basketball coaches, not just college, but basketball coaches

worldwide, bob knight, his face would be on the mt. rushmore. >> no question. jay bilas saying coach knight not for everyone, but he was an american original and good friend. jay, appreciate you coming on and sharing your thoughts. thank you so much. mike, let's talk about the world series last night. the texas rangers getting it done in arizona on the road in game five. first game of the series, a classic. not a whole lot after. this was a no-hitter from zac gallen through the sixth. took it into the seventh inning of arizona, no hits. then the sort of dam broke for the rangers, they win the first world series in franchise history. >> willie, this, to me, is one of the great baseball stories. they went from 102 losses to 94 to holding up the trophy last night. chris young did one of the great general managing jobs in history. what i was thinking last night, even though this world series in the end was just five games and not what we hoped it would be,

there's still nothing like heros of the fall that we get in baseball. nate eovaldi, corey seager, garcia before he got out. by the way, one of the great baseball men of all time, the manager of the rangers, bruce bochy won three times with the giants, came out of retirement. he said a couple years ago, watching mick jagger run up and down, and he said to his wife, "he's 80. why am i not managing anymore?" chris young brought him back, and now he's won a fourth world series. if you love this game, and we all love this game, what the rangers just did, again, is one of the great baseball stories of all time. >> lupica celebrating the texas rangers' first title ever. thanks so much. good for dallas. good for ft. worth. that's a good team. they had a great season, first place for a lot of the season. >> yup. >> astros stormed back on the last day and won the division, but the record on the road,

jonathan, in these playoffs, unbelievable. >> 11-0. that's never been done before. they were undefeated on the road. they did it with getting nothing from jacob degrom, one of their ace pitchers, very little from max scherzer, who they got at the deadline. nate eovaldi was brilliant. montgomery was great. the lineup was hit all year. the bullpen stepped up. corey seager, fourth mvp. the others who have done that are hall of famers. i'm sucker for a fan base who went a long time or have never won a title before. rangers finally have a championship. but this is one of the saddest days of the year, because we are now the longest until baseball. >> pitchers and catchers in february? >> mid-february. >> you can get there. coming up, we'll have the latest developments out of the middle east. former republican congressman adam kinzinger will join the

table. "morning joe" will be right back. dear moms and dads, what you have achieved here today is going to help us and our futures. it is why we're coming up on stage to collect your diplomas. mom, love you always. vo: when you graduate, they graduate. visit finishyourdiploma.org to find free and supportive adult education centers near you.

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it is the top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." look at that beautiful sunrise over manhattan. it is thursday, november 2nd. jonathan lemire, katty kay, and donny deutsch are still with us. joining us now, former republican congressman adam kinzinger. he served on the house selt committee to investigate the january 6th attack on the united states capitol and is the author of the new book entitled "renegade: defending democracy and liberty in our divided country." we'll get to that in a moment. it's great to see you and have you on board here. let's get to the top headlines first. the evacuation of foreign nationals stuck in gaza continues this morning. the rafah crossing reopened yesterday after qatar helped broker a deal, according to

egyptian state media. dozens of people injured were brought to egyptian hospitals. hundreds of foreign nationals also passed through the border. that includes five americans who worked for aid organizations. the egyptian foreign mistry says about 7,000 people want to evacuate and hold nationalities of more than 60 countries. white house officials estimate at least 400 american citizens are still in gaza. they say more departures are expected over the next several days, but officials stress the situation, willie, is still very fluid. >> meanwhile, israeli troops continue to push further into gaza. israeli defense forces released new video of combat activity inside the territory. they say they'vedestroyed hamas targets, including outposts and squads. they said they killed another hamas commander yesterday after launching an air strike on gaza's largest refugee camp.

this is the second time the density populated neighborhood has been attacked by israel this week. the united nations says the strikes could be a war crime. israeli officials responded in a statement saying, quote, hamas deliberately builds its terror infrastructure under, around, and within civilian buildings, intentionally endangering gazan civilians. that comes as a senior hamas official has vowed to repeat the attacks of october 7th, quote, again and again until israel is destroyed. in an interview with lebanese television, the official warned hamas would replicate those horrific attacks. stating, quote, israel is a country that has no place on our land. congressman, there you have it. for people calling for a cease-fire, this is what the israelis are up against. >> that's exactly right. by the way, where is -- i hear about the u.n. saying a lot about this. where is the u.n. in ukraine? where have they been in talking about the russian attacks in syria, the russians repeatedly hitting hospitals there?

look, i hear people say that israel is indiscriminately bombing in gaza. indiscriminate bombing by israel would have 100,000 dead civilians right now. obviously, we want no dead civilians in gaza, but israel is doing everything they can to be precise. it is hamas who made it clear they'd repeat the attacks of october 7th, just now. it is hamas who is not building bomb shelters that are clearly marked. they're building underground networks so they can move men and materials around to create another attack. >> the refugee camp that was hit? >> yeah, look, again, do you put stuff in a refugee camp? do you put military materials? do you hide your high-value targets? it is a terrible situation. living in a densely populated area doesn't grant sanctuary to a terrorist organization. >> we don't want to amplify the interview with the hamas spokesperson, but it is not shocking because we know how they feel, but to hear them say

it explicitly, we'll do it again and again. our goal, let's be clear, is to destroy israel. >> you guys have been wonderful this week talking about it and how israel, somehow, is graded differently. there is no other country, no other people in the world who, when attacked, beheaded, raped, massacred, mutilated, yet, they have to use restraint. it attaches to this. i'm holding up the post of somebody ripping off posters of the hostages there, and, somehow, israel, even in the wake of a hamas leader saying, "we're going to come again and again and destroy you," yet israel always seems to be on trial. israel always seems to be defending themselves. >> the double standard applies to college campuses so much. you're a jew at harvard. you can't even walk across your own campus without being surrounded and attacked. >> pennsylvania.

>> you have students at penn that you've shown. >> i can't even believe it. >> celebrating the raping of women, the slaughtering of babies, the burning of -- you know, if that had happened and people were celebrating violence -- i want everybody at home to think about this -- any group on college campuses that, by the way, administrators have bubble wrapped everybody over the past ten years with speech codes and safe spaces. where are the safe spaces for the jews? you know what? jews don't have safe spaces, and they're not asking for them. but they should be able to walk across a campus without being assaulted by fellow students! i'm just -- any other students that attacked students the way

jews are being attacked, they'd be expelled in a second. >> somehow. >> in a second. >> somehow, it is okay to go after jews. somehow, through history, they're cheering. people are cheering, and jews are being slaughtered. it is the level -- you've covered this all week -- the level of anti-semitism, the level of hate toward jews from the beginning of time to today, it's mind blowing. to your point, joe, if this happened to any other group. we showed a video. >> i can't even believe it. >> a woman cheering in philly last night, our greatest moment. >> a student. >> a student. our greatest moment, if there was any other group, there would be outrage. the media, other than this place and a few other places, silent. doesn't freaking cover it. >> she said she felt empowered. >> basically, when you saw women being rae so they were bleeding

in their pants, when you saw babies beheaded, all these things, when you saw these images, she said, "i know you felt empowered." if that were said. >> my god. >>upenn. >> let's go back to charlottesville. i guarantee you, if the administration in that mob saw any students, they would have been expelled in a second. >> uva. >> expelled in a second. people who worked, katty, who were seen in that crowd, fired. but here, you have people openly saying they felt empowered by the raping of jewish women. they found empowered by the images of children being shot in front of their parents and parents being shot in front of their children. the videos are out there. they have exposed themselves. yet, if you do unto them what

universities would do unto any other group, oh, it's a violation of the first amendment. >> so i think here, and i'm watching this in europe, too, we have a generation of kids, of students today, who -- and i've spoken to many of them over the last couple weeks -- feel much further removed from the events of the holocaust than my generation does. you know, my parents lived through it. they were, of course, not holocaust survivors, but they lifted through the second world war, and it felt intensely personal. i'm struck, speaking to students in the united states at the moment, how little they feel that, how little they feel the holocaust still resonates with them. it feels like a historical event that happened in another time and couldn't possibly happen again. students i have spoken to over the last couple weeks are much more focused on what is

happening in gaza and the killings of palestinians there. you know, you see it reflected in the polls. this is a real problem for the white house and for joe biden because his numbers amongst young americans are going down rapidly, and there are young americans, you know, 59% of americans now under the age of 30 don't support america giving weapons and military support to israel at the moment. that is at the moment, when israel has been attacked. i think you're seeing a shift in this country, that what has happened in the middle east has laid bare in ways that are incredibly uncomfortable and hard to grapple with. it's not just here. it's a generational shift that's happening in europe, as well. but i am surprised by the degree to which it is happening here and the tensions it's producing on campuses, you know, from a world far away and how it is

spilling over here. >> and the lack of reaction is stunning. >> i want to say one more thing, a very personal thing. i'm a part of the who and also a viewer, and i watch you every morning. as a jewish man, and we're all friends here, the way you guys have come forward and spoken about jews and about anti-semitism, i cannot tell you how much it means to myself and to other jewish people. this show has been a bastion of honesty, of clarity, of bravery, and i am so proud to be associated with you guys. >> you know, it's really, willie, pretty simple, isn't it? i mean, after george floyd, we spoke out clearly. after the killing of other black americans, we speak out clearly. it's just pretty simple. i'm sorry. that's how i was raised. you fight and protect and defend those who are preyed upon.

doesn't matter who. whether it is a black teenager who was stopped by a police officer for driving while black, or whether it's a jew being harassed on a college campus, fearing for his or her safety, i'm sorry, that's how i was raised. that's how we were all raised. but for some reason, and i do have to ask, who is raising these kids? >> who is running these universities? >> who is running the universities, willie, allowing a jew to get attacked walking across the lawn of harvard? >> i take katty's point about the generational divide, she's right about that. on the other hand, you should not have had to experience the holocaust firsthand -- >> thank you. >> -- to know that attacking a religious group, sometimes physically in the case of hamas, the most violent things we have seen since the holocaust, to know that that's wrong, to stand up to that. i appreciate you saying that, donny, but agree with joe, this

is an easy one. if you can't condemn the stuff we saw october 7th, there's something wrong with you. i'm sorry. there is something deeply wrong with you. >> i can't even understand, like, why the jews? why is this, like, the target of everybody, right? i mean, it's the smallest religion, one of the smallest religions, if not the smallest. you know, we take a lot of effort to not offend christians, of which i am. we make a lot of effort now, and the u.n. is serious about, you know, we don't want to offend people of the islamic faith, and we don't want to. somehow, jews are different. >> we deserve it, have it coming to us. >> well, you know, the big lie about anti-semitism is, oh, they'll blame it on, you know, they'll blame it on netanyahu. i am no fan of netanyahu. >> no. >> no fan. in fact, netanyahu is no fan of this show because he attacked this show years ago on twitter. i sat there thinking, doesn't he have a more important job to do

than attacking "morning joe"? so they'll blame it on netanyahu. it's funny. there was anti-semitism before that. there was anti-semitism before israel was formed in 1938. go back to the magna carta, something we celebrate. the magna carta says, here are the rights for people in england, except for jews. you have a right to your own property, da, da, da, except for jews. right to redress against the king, except for jews. it has been with us for such a long time, not just in western civilization, but all over the world. my god, we think it's bad here. you look in france. look what happened to jews in france. you look at cemeteries being burned in austria. >> vienna, yeah.

>> jewish cemeteries in 2023 being torched at night in austria. a country that, i don't know, if i'm austria, i'd take a little more care with my nazi outbursts. you look at germany. far-right party growing in power. you look, again, college students walking across campuses in germany. what are they doing? shouting, "to the ovens." in germany! ah, it is -- >> and we have josh hawley. >> by the way, 15 million jews. only 15 million jews alive. >> it'd be 250 million if not for the holocaust. >> it would be 250 million but for the holocaust. that's what hitler succeeded in doing. now, there are only 15 million

jews, and those, even the most powerful universities and powerful country in the world, under siege, because college presidents won't protect them. >> it is incredible. you know, i keep looking over here at this picture. >> show that. >> it's like, how many times, you know, do we see the videos on twitter now of these people? it's like a weird magnetism to tear down these posters of people who have been kidnapped. >> children kidnapped. >> yesterday, i saw a video where there's a guy trying to tear them down, and people are standing in between the posters and the guy. he just has to try to reach over, and he has to keep trying to grab and tear it down. it is like, what is in your hand, where when somebody puts up a poster of a missing child that has been kidnapped by a terrorist organization, you have to tear it down? you know what that is? that's holocaust denialism.

that is denialism. >> that's hate. hate to jews. >> one more time, why is the u.n. not in israel focusing on the dead israelis that were murdered? i want them in gaza and concerned about human rights, but i haven't heard much from them here. i don't hear much from them in ukraine as russia continues to launch missiles at them. instead, their sole focus right now is this. >> you know, it's funny, kind of ironic, that the very people that are so shocked and stunned and offended by the humanitarian crisis in gaza never really opened their mouth that much when putin was lobbing missiles into ukraine, killing ukrainians in apartment buildings. >> yeah. >> it is anti-semitism, clear and simple. we have an important election coming up. >> given all this. >> we have an important election coming up. one of the most important elections of, i think, my lifetime. >> i agree. >> coming up.

you and i both former republicans. you and i both conservative. actually, conservative. >> like real ones. >> not radicals. >> right. >> conservatives. you and i both conservatives. our party just keeps getting worse. they're screwing over the military in the senate. they're attacking, eviscerating, military leaders. it feels a full-scale attack against military and law enforcement. if you're a capitol hill cop, full-scale attack. full-scale attack against the rule of law. all the things that drove my parents from the democratic party to the republican party in the 1960s when democrats, radicals were trying to tear down institutions, we've just done a complete u-turn. now, it is republicans that are trying to tear down institutions. as i always say, i do the burke

quote, the founder of conservatism, who said, "institutions that are built up in 1,000 years can be torn down in a day." >> right. >> that's what donald trump wants to do. it's what he and -- it's what steve bannon said from the beginning. "i'm a lennonist. i want to destroy the government." >> what is it that republicans stand for now? i mean, i ask myself that. okay, people say, they're for fiscal responsibility. well, i was in congress when we spent a lot of money, okay? people can say, well, they're for a strong national defense. okay, half the party right now doesn't want to support ukraine. about a quarter of the party, you know, most of the party right now is saying, hey, let's support israel in this, but we have to do it at the cost of th news channel and go after the irs, which everybody hates, so for fundraising and outrage. in the book, that's wha few yea

before i came in, and i got to watch the years after you left and on. now, i can look back and be like, oh, there were all these signs that we were going to become a party unmoored to any principle, and it was all just about outrage and fundraising. what conservatism has become is no longer principles. conservatism has become, can you be offensive? can you be the one that is the most radical? the one table at the lincoln day dinner with the weirdos. the next day, it is everybody at the lincoln day dinner and what they believe. >> by the way, there always was that table. you would shake -- >> that was the purpose. >> -- hands with mainstream republicans. you'd walk past the table of weirdos and go, "how you doing," and keep walking and talking to people who were -- who believed in balancing the budget. >> yes. >> supporting israel and pushing become on russia, and all those very weird things that we

republicans used to believe. >> congressman, let's get your take on the new speaker of the house. someone you served with. >> how is that going? >> israel aid with conditions and offsets. going to raise the deficit. someone, to this point, who hasn't been willing to support funding for ukraine. and someone who is one of the leaders in the efforts to overturn joe biden's election. >> just a well-dressed insurrectionist. my interaction with mike johnson, i had a few. didn't know him well because nobody knew him, actually. but he came to me with his little clipboard one time. he was asking me if i'd sign on to this amicus brief to a texas lawsuit, throwing out other states' election results, right? this is the thing that was in december. i remember i was looking at him, like, "mike, i mean, you know who i am. you know what i've been saying, right? there is no way i'm signing on to this." he scurries away with it. i remember thinking, nobody is going to sign on to that, of course. well, almost 100 did, including, by the way, kevin mccarthy, who

told liz cheney there's no way he's signing on to that. "i'm not signing on to that." next morning, the people who signed on to the mike johnson attempt to overturn the election, kevin mccarthy put out a statement saying his name was inadvertently left off. mike johnson is the guy that was leading what kevin mccarthy was -- can i say the split screen, though, of jenna ellis tearfully admitting of lying to the american people in court. >> apologizing. >> and apologizing. at the same time, the base entry to be considered as a speaker candidate for the gop was you had to be still lying about the election. can i say that split screen and how much that shows that the gop doesn't mind lying to its voters? >> we can also remind everybody of the progressive stances on lgbtq stances, as far as everything he wrote in the piece in 2005. basically saying that if you're

gay, it's against the law and will lead to pedophilia and you marrying your pets. this is the most powerful republican. this is who they elected. >> congressman, let's get the view from the inside. you watched this all happen, the 2020 election. you and liz cheney were lonely in the republican caucus. let's look ahead to next year's election. you've got a guy who led the legal effort to overturn the election, now the speaker of the house. you have an entire caucus, as you say, who the litmus test is, are you on board with overturning the election? if it is yes, okay, you're good with us. what should we expect next fall? >> you should expect pure fear now in the gop to act. you'll be lucky if the government stays open. you'll be lucky if you get the aid bills done, okay? what do you expect next year? what do i expect next year? i actually expect the republicans are going to get crushed. the american people know they're lying to them. i mean, even if they're scared to say it, they know it. i'll say this, i think the most important thing the democratic party can do, and, frankly, the

independents, is say, there's one issue on the ballot. the only issue is does democracy survive or doesn't it? joe said this is the most important election. every election you hear that, but this is different. because i truly think the guardrails of democracy held once. i don't think they can hold against the same impact. if donald trump wins, which is possible, everybody, he could win, he's only going to put people around him that say, like, "i don't actually care about the constitution. i'll swear an allegiance to you." i think it is going to be an intense, bad year, to be honest. >> you think democrats are going to win? >> i don't know. yes, i mean, if it's today. i still believe in the faith of democracy, that 50 plus 1 percent of people can see through this. the problem is, my democratic friends are taking it for granted. when i say, be worried about donald trump, a lot of times they scoff at me, like, okay. no, be worried about donald trump. he could win this. >> have we shown the poll yet, the quinnipiac poll? it is fascinating.

>> standby. >> head-to-heads. biden and trump again tied. i'm not exactly sure. 91 could wants against you, federal charges, you're tied. fascinating thing happening, though, with robert kennedy jr. >> yeah. >> we now know why trump was attacking bobby jr. this is why. i go like this and t.j. puts it up. this is why. okay. this is why. >> there. >> bobby kennedy, 22%. look who he takes votes from. keep that up there for a second. joe biden at 39%. driving the car. donald trump at 36%. bobby kennedy jr. at 22%. head-to-head matchups, biden is up by one point in the quinnipiac poll. it's close. of course, we all understand that what matters is state by state by state by state. but you look at this, then you

add on top of the fact that you have no labels now saying publicly, some people from no labels, what they've been saying to me privately for some time, willie, that they want to run republican favorite sons. tom ridge in pennsylvania. paul ryan in wisconsin. tommy thompson in wisconsin. you know, somebody else in georgia. you know, a republican that doesn't need 20%. just get 3% in each state, and you swing the state to joe biden. >> give those republicans who aren't going to vote for biden but are fed up with trump somewhere to land. >> exactly. >> a place to go. that 22% is an extraordinary number. that's a percentage of the country that's fed up with the system. >> right. >> they see in bobby jr. some trumpism, right, the conspiracy theories. >> all the conspiracy theories. >> combativeness, all that stuff. maybe some democrats put that name together with the legacy. >> yeah. >> he's going to have some support, and he's peeling off

trump more than biden. >> i don't want to go with either one, but it is fascinating, how it leans towards helping biden. this is a kennedy, and it helps biden. >> new book is entitled "renegade: defending democracy and liberty in our divided country." former congressman adam kinzinger. thank you. >> good to be here. >> thanks, congressman. >> great to have you. ahead, democratic congressman dan goldman will join us to talk about what congress is doing to send aid to israel as the gop's proposed bill is pushed back from democrats and senate republicans. plus, florida governor ron desantis will join us on the state of his campaign. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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republicans in the house have put on the table? >> well, not the way the republicans are doing it, that's for sure. they are trying, for the first time ever, to condition emergency aid to israel. in fact, to any country that we provide emergency aid to on some sort of other offset or requirement. in this case, and i thought joe put it so well the other day, it is to protect billionaires. i know for republicans, this may seem like a political game, but i can tell you, for those of us who are jewish in america and around the world, this is no game. this is an existential fight for the existence of israel, and it is shameful that the republicans are playing political games when we need to be unified behind israel. there are more than 400 members of the house who would support a straight israel aid package. but because of this political gamesmanship, the republicans are trying to set a terrible

precedent and use israel as a political ploy. >> congressman, as we learned from the cbo yesterday, this, in fact, will add to the deficit, $26.8 billion. the argument that this is an offset doesn't hold any water either. are you confident the aid will get quickly to israel? you think the new speaker will back down from this? >> i hope he will back down. i'm not sure he'll have the votes to pass it. i'll be a no, and i think my colleagues are really upset about the political gamesmanship and the precedent this would set. we will need more aid for israel. we would need more aid for other countries to protect democracy around the world. if we set this precedent now, that for the first time ever, we're going to condition aid to israel or anywhere, that is a terrible precedent to set. what we expect to happen is it's unclear whether this bill will even come to the floor. it's unclear whether it can

pass. regardless, even if it passes, we expect the senate will put together a full package, and that must include humanitarian aid, both for israel and the gazans, the innocent civilians in gaza who desperately need humanitarian aid. republicans stripped that out, as well. and, of course, ukraine, which is out of money and is a fight for democracy, as well. >> congressman goldman, there was an effort to expel congressman george santos last night. that floor vote was defeated. he was not pushed out of the lower chamber. you have been an outspoken critic of santos, of course. give us your reaction to the vote, and why is it some democratic colleagues did not participate in this vote to push out santos? >> well, i think it was purely just political cover for the freshman new york republicans who have been hearing a lot from their districts. i've been hearing a lot from their districts in new york,

about what a tratravesty, embarrassment, and shame santos is. that he is part of the republican party, that he is voting on legislation that affects every american, and that he is a fraudster, liar, and crook, essentially, who lied his way into his seat. i argued yesterday on the floor that george santos should be expelled, not because he has been charged criminally, not because of any ethics violation, but solely based on his own admissions, where he has admitted that his significant lies to his voters were ultimately the reason why he is in congress. we don't need to wait for a criminal case to work itself out. we don't need to wait for ethics violations to be declared by the ethics committee. we know from his own words. some of my colleagues are concerned about a precedent. there have only been five members of the house expelled, and i understand that concern. i voted differently because i think, based on george santos' own admissions, he does not

belong in congress. >> all right. democratic member of the house oversight committee, congressman dan goldman, thank you for being with us. coming up, presidential candidate ron desantis is standing by. he joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." (upbeat music) - [narrator] what if there was a hearing aid that could keep up with you? (notification dings) this is jabra enhance select. it's a smart hearing solution that makes hearing aids more convenient and less expensive. it connects with your phone

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ft. lauderdale. welcome back to "morning joe." there's ft. lauderdale. let's bring in right now a guy who knows a little about ft. lauderdale and the state of florida. republican presidential candidate ron desantis. thanks for being with us. >> good morning. >> you played baseball, know a little about baseball. did you follow the world series? we were talking about nate eovaldi, once again doing what

eovaldi does in playoffs, and that is pitch pretty spectacularly. >> yeah, i fell asleep in probably about the sixth inning, but i was confident in a rangers victory. they had a good season and deserve it. >> you lasted four more innings than i did. we've been hearing, governor, since you started your campaign, that you were going to collapse and things were falling, falling from the sky, and, yet, it's donald trump who seems to be afraid to go to debates. this is the third debate coming up next week in miami that he is going to skip. do you think any candidate that's afraid to debate his opponents in a primary should be president of the united states? >> we are not going to win as republicans, joe, by adopting the strategy that biden did, being in the basement during the 2020 campaign. that's effectively what donald trump is doing. he is refusing to debate. we have a lot of issues that

this country is facing right now. it requires steady, focused, strong leadership. you have to be able to defend your record and articulate how you're going to take the country in a better direction. so my view of why he should debate, look, i want to fight for people. you know, donald trump is perceived by republicans as a fighter, but i also want to win for people. that means winning elections and it also means winning on these policy fights. donald trump, even now, is saying that the -- his famous promise to build the wall and have mexico pay for it, that he never intended to do it because he said that mexico, there was no mechanism to do it. you actually could have taxed the remittences, and that's what i would do. we need a lead to lead forward. you have to have a unifying vision. i'll note this. you mentioned ever since i ran, there are the narratives. trump is spending massive amounts of money attacking me in iowa. he's had to go campaign in iowa. if he is saying he is so far up, he doesn't need to debate, that

is belied by their activity on the ground there. >> you know, it's interesting. joe biden may have spent a lot of time in his basement, but he'd climb out of the basement to debate the other democrats and republicans. >> that's true. >> trump won't even get out of wherever he is staying. i wonder if it's because a lot of times, when he gets out there, he thinks he is running against barack obama. i mean, he keeps bringing up barack obama. he keeps -- he keeps saying these really bizarre things. i guess last week, and i may have seen this on one of your supporters' sites, but he told voters they didn't have to go out and vote. "oh, don't worry about it, you don't have to vote," and then he circles back to he thought he ran against obama in '16. he thought he beat obama in '20. he thinks he is running against obama in '24. are some people around him afraid for him to debate because he loses his concentration, his train of thought?

>> you look also, joe biden did debate, and you're right. the first debate about biden, biden beat trump. we were excited for it. we were stunned at the end of that debate, about how bad it was. it did hurt his numbers and, i think, had an impact on the election. he needs to prove to republicans that he's going to be somebody that's going to be able to be up there and get the job done. you're right, when he is off the teleprompter now, you see him saying things about not voting, saying there was no way he'd have mexico pay for the wall, a lot of these different things. i think you have to go up there and be able to speak from the heart. when we're out there campaigning, i'm not using a teleprompter. i'm just out there speaking and telling people what i believe. >> governor, can i add one more thing? he also, weirdly enough, sometimes starts wandering around and starts blaming pro-life voters for what happened in 2022. he's going out, like, i've been trying to figure it

out. >> maybe it's all the litigation. >> i think your six-week ban is extreme. i personally think that. i think it should be around 15, 16 weeks or so. but, again, be that as it may, i know where you stand. you will tell iowa voters and south carolina voters where you stand. donald trump goes out and sometimes, weirdly enough, he starts attacking pro-life voters. like, he blamed them for not coming out in 2022. now, he is trying to be everything to everyone, saying, "oh, i have a plan. everybody is going to love me." yet, he just sort of wanders off instead of actually explaining what he is going to do on an issue that's probably one of the most important issues to iowa republicans. >> well, clearly, it's a stark difference from his speech at the march for life when he was president. i mean, that was not what he was saying then. he said he was one of us, in terms of being a pro-life president. now, he's saying protections when there is a detectable heart

beat for an unborn child is somehow a terrible thing. that is not what iowa republicans believe. i think more and more are going to be familiar with those comments over the next couple months. but it is a flip on where he had been previously, and i think it raises the issue of, you go back to 2015/2016, the trump of that time. he was clicking as a candidate. i mean, he had energy. he was out there riffing. he was controversial but in a way that was edgy, and i think people said, "you know what? this political system needs to be shaken up." this is a different donald trump in 2023. i don't think he's got the same energy. i don't think he's got the same pizazz. 2015 and '16 was about america first. i think this campaign is more about trump first. it's more about his issues. i think we have to focus on the american people's issues. >> governor, good morning. thanks for being on with us. when you entered the race back in may, there were a lot of hopes put into you by republicans who were looking to go somewhere else than donald

trump. you were coming off a 19 point, almost 20 point win in a diverse state like florida. clearly, you know how to win there and in big states. what is your assessment now as we look at real clear averages that have you down 46 points to donald trump? you've been much closer at the beginning. what is your assessment of the way this campaign has gone over the last six months? >> well, look, willie, when we got into the race, we were bracing for these indictments. i think it's helped him. i think it sucked out the oxygen. we knew it was going to be a brutal summer. i was not somebody who thought nationally we were going to see major movement in the national poll it is a state by state process, we've worked really hard to la groundwork in all the early states. you know, that's not necessarily something that shows up in a poll. i think if you look at what we've done, we've built a foundation. now, we're in the homestretch. most people still haven't made up their mind in iowa and new hampshire. i was with governor sununu.

he thinks the majority won't make their decision until january, so it is laying the foundation. i think we've shown in the numbers that come out, we had people in iowa considering voting for me, and i had the highest favorability. you have to go in and make the sale, and that's what we're going to do. >> what's interesting, willie, we have 2 1/2 months left, a lifetime in politics. one of the things that surprised me on the quinnipiac poll, and other polls, you know, see trump at 50%, sometimes 55%, but then they ask republicans, "are you set on your candidate?" numbers are much lower than i expect. sometimes in the 40s. this is still a very fluid race. >> there are people, governor, who say as they look at the iowa poll we just had up there, where you're still down 27 points, that perhaps your theoryf the

case is to just hang in there, hang around, because if the indictments turn into convictions for donald trump, finally, republicans will abandon him. is that a fair assessment? >> not really. i mean, i think, so far, all those cases have actually helped him, because i think it's rallied support. i think people are sympathetic. but i think what you see, and i think joe is right, in iowa, he's got some hard support, but a lot of those people are looking at other candidates. their default is trump. he is the most famous person in politics. we understand that. but when we get in there and show we're viable alternative, someone that will fight for them, but also fight smartly so we can win again as republicans, and not just the election but actually deliver on our promises and then lead with a positive vision to bring about a great american come back, if we do that, we're going to be in good shape. we're going to be able to do it. but people are not locked in. i mean, that is very true. in iowa, i don't think they're locking in. new hampshire, they're not locking in. we're doing it.

i'm not hoping for any type of special intervention. we're going to win it by convincing plurality of the voters that we're the best choice. >> you said at the august debate when the question was put to the entire panel, if donald trump is convicted and is the nominee, would you still support him, and you raised your hand. you're a lawyer. you served in the navy. you were well trained at the greatest schools. do you really believe a man who is convicted of, say, attempted to overturn the 2020 election, or taking nuclear secrets back to his beach club, do you actually still as we sit here today believe that person should be president? >> so i signed a pledge, willie, and that pledge is what it is. now, do i think that will not happen. i think that republican voters will understand that as we get closer to voting, but it is -- it would be fatal in a general election, and i don't think the party should nominate in that

situation. however, you know, i signed the pledge. i'm a republican. i don't think it's going to come the that, and i think we'll be -- we'll get the job done like we need to, but the reality is i signed it, and that's what i did. >> so you stand by that this morning? >> yeah. when i signed the pledge, you know, i knew -- you never know what's going to happen. it's a crazy process. people make different decisions, and i think my point of view on it was, you know, i'm participating in this process. i've got the plan to win. we're going to win. at the same time, it's like you can't just take your ball and go home. you can't out of the one side of your mouth say, the country's in decline and biden is failing and then pout out of the other. that was my rationale for doing it. >> interesting. let's talk policy. republicans yesterday, senate republicans spoke out against tommy tuberville's blockade on

promotions. some said it was stupid and embarrassing for the military. do you think tommy tuberville should lift the blockade of military promotions? do you agree with republicans in the senate? >> actually, i think that what the dod is doing, i don't think they're following the law with respect to abortion tourism. i don't think taxpayer money should be spent on that. we have a weak defense industrial base. we've got huge problems with recruiting and so their focus on that, i don't think is consistent with the law. i also think it's misguided. i would also point out that you can promote people on an individual basis. i think the senate has decided they have not wanted to move a lot of those, but if there's people that are mission-critical, they can move it in spite of what senator tuberville did, but i think fighting back on the pentagon going outside the boundaries of the law, i think that's congress' appropriate role for oversight in checks and

balances. >> to answer the question, do you think senator tuberville should lift the blockade on military promotions? >> no because i think we're trying to force a change in pentagon policy to conform them to the law while at the same time, he has allowed individuals to be appointed. so if there are mission-critical promotions, bring them before the senate. i think he's been very clear that's appropriate, and i know that they have done that in certain instances. >> governor, you have voiced support for israel and funding israel aid, but the new proposal from the new republican speaker of the house does not just unconditionally send aid to israel. it's set with offsets and cutting to irs funding which now the independents suggest will add significant money to the deficit. do you support that plan? >> i think they should offset the funding. i haven't looked at how the intrakasys of the irs funding uld work. it's a forecast, but i think we have to standith israel.

they're our strongest ally in the middle east. they're going to fight thiswar. they're not asking us to fight it for them, but we have a relationship and we need to back their ability to ultimately defeat hamas unconditionally once and for all so that this never happens again. at the same time, you can do that while also just acknowledging this country is in solvent. we've got $33 trillion plus in debt. you're going to have to make some decisions at some point about how we're spending money. so i think if the house is doing that, i think that that is appropriate. i think that that's showing the urgency of our fiscal situation while also recognizing we have to step up and help a very strong ally. >> so governor, do you think the house republicans and all republicans in washington -- we'll just say generally washington republicans, have been hypocritical on the issue of balancing budgets, paying down the debt? under donald trump as you know? >> of course. joe, of course. joe, the last --

>> the debt exploded over his four years. >> the last time republicans did anything about it was when you were in congress. >> right. >> that was the last time republicans actually walked the walk, when they had the republican revolution. >> why is that, governor? because, you know, i'll just say. when we were there, we raised hell, but we balanced the budget four years in a row. george bush gets in, the deficit explodes. obama gets in, republicans actually put in some restraints on spending. trump gets in, worse than ever. $8 billion over four years. why is it that washington republicans only care about the deficit when there's a democrat in the white house? >> well, i think if you look at the unified government over w. bush and trump, with republican unified government, they threw out all the fiscal conconstrain. that was not something people cared about. if you talked about it at that

time, people didn't want to hear it. the minute republicans get out of power, then all of a sudden, they beat their chest. they become real fiscal hawks when it comes to all this stuff. part of the reason i think under bush is because of the lengthy wars which were clearly mismanaged and we spent a lot of money that in hindsight we shouldn't have done. i was there for the first two years of the trump administration. we, you know, there was a faction of us in the house that was urging him not to just sign these big spending bills, but he signed every spending bill that ever got to his desk, cu culminating in a big usher of spending his last year in office which of course, ended up adding $7.8 trillion to the debt. in the four years of trump, he added almost as much to the debt as obama did in eight years. there was no sense of fiscal restraint there, and so i make the point when i'm in iowa, new hampshire, that this is both parties. republican voters do not believe

it's just the democrats because they have been let down before, and i get a lot of cheers when i point out that it has been both parties, and, you know, you can get it done like in florida. we've paid down 25% of the debt since i have been governor. we've run surpluses, cut taxes and all, that but you have to make some tough decisions. you can't please everyone all the time, and i think that the d.c. republicans have had short-term thinking whit comes -- when it comes to our fiscal situation. >> the speaker would just add money to the deficit, and you talk about the urgent need to help israel, but republicans have already -- some by their own admission, they've squandered three weeks of helping israel because of the speaker fight and the proposal which is not going to pass the senate and it'll get passed up further. there will only be longer delays. >> well, look. i think the speaker issue -- hopefully they get a good foot forward. i like mike johnson, but that really i think showed the american people that they're

just in disarray up there, that there's just a bunch of chaos that's reigning supreme. i've said, look. as president, you've got to lead and bring order to this chaos, but there's no question that it made the party look like chickens with their head cut off. now going forward, you know, i do think doing offset is the right thing to do. i haven't seen details about the irs thing, but there are voters who are upset that the irs is expanding, particularly a lot of small businessmen, so i think that would be something that probably a lot of voters would have sympathy for. >> governor, i want to ask you about the temperature of our politics right now. we saw because of so much rhetoric, because of what's been happening in this country, let's say over the last decade, we saw the consequences of that on january 6th. we have judges being threatened and witnesses and juries being threatened and people who work in our electoral process being threatened. the fbi warns of domestic political violence again right now around the next election.

when you say something like in ryan, new hampshire that you want to, quote, slit the throats of federal bureaucrats, you didn't mean that literally, but do you have any pause about using that rhetoric given our political climate? >> no, because i think people knew it was a figure of speech. i think people want to see big change. >> why not say you're going to fire them? >> well, because you're being colorful with some of the stuff, but you basically -- you need to bring in serious accountability. i think back about some of the things with this government. the afghanistan debacle, no one has been fired as a result of that. that was one of the biggest fiascos we've ever had. you have had government falling time and time again. we need an era of accountability. obviously we're going to do that within the context of the rule of law and the constitution, but i want to make very clear to voters i'm not just going to go up there and be nice about it. we're going to take very swift action to resize this government

and reconstitutionalize that, but everyone should want to be very active in the process, but ultimately, you know, this is about making your voice heard at the ballot box and that's what we're going to do. >> governor, i take your point about accountability. i'm talking about the rhetoric. i mean, you know. you see it. we all watched january 6th. we've seen what's happened since, and to federal officials and elections and volunteers. don't you think as a country and political leaders we should turn down the temperature on things like that? >> well, look. i stand by what i said. i don't think anyone could reasonably have taken that and acted like i'm somehow advocating anything other than robust political process and robust political accountability. you know, at the same time, you know, we have divisions in the country. i think that's natural. we're a big, diverse country, but what i try to do is focus on the substance. not everyone's going to like every position i take, but i've also been willing to, once

there's new issues coming up, you know, there may be people who disagree with me 80%, but if the 20% we can work together, i'm willing to work with them on that 20% to be able to move the ball forward. you know, in florida, a lot of the national media's focused on some of the things, you know, that were kind of contrary to orthodoxy with the media and the left, but we've got unanimous support for some major policies like everglades restoration, some of our education policies to increase teacher funding. our budgets by and large have gotten close to unanimous votes every year that i have been governor. so i think you can work in ways that are constructive. you can fight the fights and i'm going to fight the fights very hard, but i also don't want to make enemies unnecessarily. i want people to work together when we can. >> the problem is political leadership say things like that, and there are people who take those signals literally instead of figuratively like they're intended. >> let me go through a checklist to get your answer on a couple

of quick questions here. first of all, republicans have talked in d.c. about a 15-week national abortion ban. would you support that? >> so i'm pro-life. i will sign pro-life legislation, but what i've told people as somebody that's delivered for the pro-life cause is, you know, the country's divided on it. it's really going to be a bottom of up movement. you're going to have to work in your local communities. you're going to have to work in states to be able to -- >> right. >> -- to bring about positive change and that's going to take a lot of time and effort, and the congress has not been very productive on a lot of things and while i'm pro-life and will be a pro-life president, i don't see them acting productively here. >> you believe the abortion issue should remain with the states? >> i mean, i think in reality that's what's going to happen. i mean, i will embrace pro-life legislation as president, but i think if you look at how our country's divided over it, you just have a lot of divides, and so typically when that happens,

federalism ends up working its will. >> yeah. let's talk about ukraine. obviously in the president's bill, we've got support for israel, support for ukraine, money for the southern border. what's the fourth thing? what am i forgetting here? >> taiwan. >> ukraine, israel, china/taiwan. >> that's right. it sounds like a good bill for republicans and democrats. i wanted to ask you though, specifically about ukraine, how should the united states move forward on funding for ukraine? do you support funding ukraine at the levels that president biden has suggested in this bill? >> well, first, just on the border, i just got to point out he's not actually providing money that would stop the problem. he's providing money to process more illegal aliens coming in which i think would probably end up exacerbating and inviting the

problem. i gave a speech at the heritage foundation on friday laying out our national security strategy. we are going to focus on the indo-pacific. what biden's doing there is inadequate to deter china. that ultimately is the top threat to this country. i think russia's hostile to the united states, but i think their threat, europe is a more pressing part of their threat. so we need to have the europeans step up. some have done it. >> some have. yeah. >> no blank check on ukraine. >> you're saying no blank check, and i agree with you, and i think a lot of americans agree with you that they shouldn't get a blank check, but do you support continued funding though for the ukrainians, and if so, for how long? >> so i would not do what biden's doing which is, you know, funding pensions for bureaucrats over there, funding salaries. they're funding small business stuff. we were supportive of the defensive weaponry to be able to prevent putin from taking over the country. so as president, i'm going to leverage resources. i'm going to get the europeans

to do more. i'm going to do more on the energy side and more on china which by the way is the biggest ben factor for ukraine, but i would not just sign checks because i think what they're going to do is they want $60 billion now and i think they're going to come back at the beginning of the year next year and ask for at least another $100 billion. we've put a lot of money into this. >> right. >> he hasn't really been able to articulate a coherent strategy about how does this come to an end? i think our interest is bringing it to an end in a way that keeps russia in a box, but is not going to have us spend hundreds of billions of dol outcome that's not much different than where we are now. >> i just want to confirm because you talked about how you would spend money there. you didn't mention -- i know you did support defensive weapons for ukraine when the obama administration did not. i'm curious though, do you support weapons for ukraine now in the middle of this fight? >> well, not only that. i mean, i supported it under trump, and then i supported the initial stuff under biden, but i

think now the question is, our weapon stocks are low. how are we going to be able to meet all the contingencies, and how are we leveraging our european allies to step up and fill some of these voids? the president said, we're the united states of america. we can do all this. the reality is, is we need the set priorities. we don't have the ability to just flood every part of the world. so i would prioritize the indo-pacific. i would provide support from israel, and then i would leverage the europeans to help with ukraine and bring that to an end. >> would you still send the military weapons to ukraine at this point? >> right now? >> i would do -- i would send support that would bring it to a conclusion. i wouldn't just send if we don't have a sense of how this comes to an end, and what i think i've seen with the current administration is they're basically just saying, as long as it takes, but as long as it takes to do what specifically, and what's the ultimate end game?

i think there's a lot of republicans in congress that are asking those questions, and i think those questions deserve answers before they green light, you know, another $60 billion. >> so let me ask you this question because i think there's a growing realization inside the white house, and i think there actually has been for some time that -- and we had general milley saying this actually on the show that the ukrainians aren't going to get all the russian troops out of ukraine, and putin's not going to get to kyiv. so at some point, they're going to have to come together and figure out what the future looks like. i'm curious. what's your vision for ukraine? let's say that the boundaries stay pretty much where they are right now, and i mean, unless there's a massive spring offensive by the ukrainians, this is what the map we're looking at now, social security probably where this is going to end whether it's in a year or two years or whenever. what does ukraine look like

after that as far as their strategic relationship with the united states, with western democracies? >> nato. >> do they become a member of nato? should they become a member of the eu? are they a quasi member of nato? what does that look like after the war? >> if i could snap my fingers, i would give them back crimea, and all that from '13 and '14. there's a reality on the ground about what's going to be accomplished. what would they need to accomplish that? clearly i would not support u.s. troops being there. so there's going to be some type of a settlement at some point, and i think the key is, is one, that ukraine retains its sovereignty, and then two, that russia is not given some type of a windfall for rewarding them for their aggression, and i think it's going to require a lot of action from a lot of the european countries, the united states. we've got to get more serious about energy. we've got to get more serious about china and iran's relationship to propping up

russia, but it's probably going to end up somewhere like that. whether they're in nato or not, i don't know. i think that they clearly have value as a buffer state in between russia and nato for the united states. >> right. >> and i think that's the reason why we've supported them. >> and i would take it that a desantis administration would send a clear message to vladimir putin that even if they're not a member of nato, they come under the protection of the west, that we are not going to allow another invasion of ukraine in the future, right? >> i think it was a mistake when the president said that he would be fine with a small invasion. i think that that greenlit russia, and we will be very adamant that russia needs to be kept in its box. >> okay. >> we'll use different types of levers to be able to do that, and i think the europeans need to step up and do more to be able to ensure that as well. >> so let me ask you while bere talking about foreign policy, i'm curious you had said that

you thought that joe biden should do better on china. i've actually -- i've actually been grateful that after we have had all these presidents in the 21st century say we're going to pivot to china and start focusing on the pacific, that we've finally started to do that. if you look at the philippines and what we've done in guam, what we've done in australia, with the nuclear subs. you look at what we're doing all around. it seems we're finally starting -- in south korea, in japan. japan has agreed that they're going to up their military budget. it seems that finally started to focus on our allies in the united states flexing their muscle a bit more on china, stopping china's continued aggression there. what else would you do above that around china militarily or economically? >> well, i think you point out

something important. south korea and japan are actually getting along now. they used to never get along. >> right. >> they both see the threat by china. what japan's doing to bolster its defenses, i support 100%. in our speech on friday, we rolled out a need to be able to enact a strategy of denial of china's ambitions in the indo-pacific, and that's going to require more naval power. so we have a proposal to get to 355 ships by tend of the first term and close to 400 by tend of the second term and put us on a pathway to 600 ships over the next 20 years. i mean, ultimately, the future of the free world is going to be determined in the indo-pacific. i don't think we're doing enough to be able to blunt their ambitions and it's not just vis-a-vis taiwan, and taiwan is not just about semiconductors. if china's able to get out of that first island chain, that is going to allow them to be able to dominate the economy in the indo-pacific on the seas and

that will impact the united states of america. it will impact american families because they're not just going to do that, and then not try to export their authoritarian vision over the world and over the economy. so they're intent on being the dominant power in this world. if they get that, and it's a chinese century, that will mean less freedom and it will be bad for the united states. we need to stay ahead of them not just militarily, but also economically. we need to detangle from china, particularly strategic industries and then we need to get serious about what they have been able to do culturally in this country. for example in florida, we ban china from buying things like farmland and land near military bases. they have been very strategic about being able to exercise influence here in the united states, so we've got to combat that. >> 2024 presidential candidate florida governor ron desantis. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> thanks, guys. when we come back, we'll hear from republican senators have to say to republican senator tommy tuberville.

yesterday on the senate floor, they did not hold back. "morning joe" continues after a quick break. back "morning joe" continues after a quick break.

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my gosh. last night, senate republicans just finally had it with tommy tuberville, and you had military veterans like joni ernst and others getting on and just eviscerating him. they held him on the floor for five hours and at one point, a republican said, just how dumb -- he didn't say how dumb can you be? he said, how dumb can we be? and he's, like, president xi is loving this, tuberville, like, vladimir putin is loving what you are doing. you are aiding and abetting the enemy is what basically his own

republican party was saying. >> yeah, and you had senators -- senator tuberville suggested that the military is bloated and that these are just desk jockeys, and you had one of the senators that we're going to hear from in just a second walking through what exactly who these men and women are, and why they're not desk jockeys to quote our executive producer, quoting "die hard," welcome to the party, pal. >> right. >> where have these senators been for the last several months? >> yeah. >> while this has been going on, they have been saying privately -- >> great question. >> -- in public they don't like it, but doing nothing about it. last night, senator tommy tuberville of alabama faced backlash from members of his own party who angrily challenged his months' long blockade. he prevented 61 military promotions for four hours. tuberville rejected each nomination as his frustrations grew. >> we have done the best that we can to honor the request of a

fellow senator that these nominations be brought to the floor and voted on individually, and i really respect men of their word. i do not respect men who do not honor their word. >> no matter whether you believe it or not, senator tuberville, this is doing great damage to our military. i don't say that lightly. this this is the norm, who the hell wants to serve in the military when your promotion can be canned based on something you had nothing to do with? >> it's simply a -- in my opinion, an abuse of the powers we have as senators to say if there's something we vehemently disagree with, that we're going to use that power to hold up the promotion of over 350 men and women in our military. >> these are the people who are kicking in doors in fluzia, shooting terrorists in the face, and we have people saying

they're desk jockeys and they're not warriors? that's just ridiculous. this is ridiculous, and it's insulting. the chinese admirals and their military, they're probably watching this debate right now going, i can't believe my luck. i can't believe our luck. maybe we should attack taiwan tomorrow. we're going to look back at this episode and just be stunned at what a national security suicide mission this became. >> so senator sullivan served in the united states marine corps for years. joni ernst served as well. you see the frustration there that again, we have been hearing privately. sometimes we'll hear mitch mcconnell say politely, i disagree with what senator tuberville is doing, but it's the way the system's set up. somehow for some reason yesterday, the dam broke and they all came out against tuberville. >> i think a lot of it has to do with the fact that you had an episode with a marine corps commandant, and by the way, i guarantee you every one of those

senators -- first of all, they were angry behind the scenes all along. >> oh yeah. >> but i guarantee you every one of those senators got calls from the pentagon going, what the holy hell are you guys doing? we've got guys being sent to the hospital now because, like, one job is enough. to just absolutely rip somebody apart, you're making them do two, three, four jobs because of this clown from alabama that even people in alabama don't support? you know the pressure coming from the pentagon with one of their own being sent to the hospital on a health issue. i mean, you know it's getting intense now. >> yeah, that marine corps leader hospitalized over the weekend. he had spoken openly days previously that he's working two jobs and simply couldn't do it. it was too much, and now we have this health episode. my understanding is talking to a few republicans involved with this yesterday, that played a

role. as of course, just the escalating crisis in the middle east. this is not a moment that the military cannot be at other than full readiness as we have two aircraft carriers in the region, and of course, there are still -- the war in ukraine and concerns about china and taiwan as well, and we saw from lindsey graham who of course, is a hawk and always been pro-military. he was very firm. dan sullivan, the strongest voice there, and mitt romney and others. they were all taking shot after shot after shot of tuberville who said he won't back down. >> joni ernst spoke quietly, but gave one of the harshest digs by saying, i don't respect men who don't keep their word. >> yeah. >> well, i mean, it really is just an absurd situation. someone should tell -- maybe they have been telling this guy, you can't play football without a roster and he's sitting there and blocking everything, and, you know, partly it's the senate rules that we've all heard about, but i've wondered why it

is that all of these officers have to have their commissions -- i mean, they have to be confirmed by the senate. it does not make any sense because as i understand it, the constitution, the appointments clause on the constitution only requires principal executives, cabinet heads to be confirm bid the senate, and by law, congress can say that everyone else can be, you know, selected by just the president alone or even by the courts of law depending on what -- >> yeah. >> here you've got thousands of people up for nomination, and it doesn't make sense. it doesn't add up with the senate rules that say one senator can insist on debate on every single one of those. i mean, the rules as they're set up now depend on good faith, and what we're seeing here is not good faith. >> just absolutely no good faith whatsoever. it has nothing to do with the military. it's gutting readiness, donny, and as you heard --

>> it's not an exaggeration. >> as you heard senator sullivan say, it would be a catastrophic suicide mission that we've put our military on, and unfortunately you have that happening in the republican -- with the republicans in the senate with tommy tuberville and then in the house, you have had house members who constantly eviscerate and attack and beat down the united states military, hate the united states military, hate the generals that run the united states military, hate mark milley when he was chairman of the joint chiefs, was so disrespectful to him it was sickening. it made me sick. nobody -- not even the most left-wing radical when i was in armed services ever treated a general or an admiral with such -- such little respect, and then you had on top of that, the fact that you have had republicans in the past saying they wish the united states military was more like the

russian military. the same russian military that tried to bum rush us in syria? two minutes later, 500 of them were dead because guess what? you know what those special ops said in syria? welcome to the party. you know? really -- do we really want our troops to be over there? let me answer that. hell no. not only our general, but anywhere across the world. do you want us to be like the russian troops or like the american troops? i remember -- i remember way back 40 -- i don't know how many years ago. i was in college. maybe it was -- what was it? an odd six, odd seven? i don't know, but anyway, it was a long time ago, and i remember even then that it was a political science course on soviet history, and, you know, we were talking about cold war and everything, and this professor happened to have a lot of experience dealing with the soviets.

he goes, they look at our soldiers regardless of what you hear. they think they're 7 feet tall. they'll never say it. they're scared to death of american marines. they want no part of it, and do you know what's changed in all of that? and nothing -- nothing because the chinese are scared of our military. the russians are scared of our military. the north koreans are scared of our military. the world is scared of our military. they quake in fear. the only people that don't seem to respect our military right now are republicans on capitol hill and the guy who's going to be the next president of the united states if the republicans have their way. it is grotesque. they stand alone in the world in their disrespect for the strength and the power and the might of america's armed services. >> well said, sir. the grotesqueness of it, the

stupidity of it, there's one thing that pretty much everybody agrees on. republican, democrat, of course -- not these knuckleheads is a respect and a love -- a reverence for the military. i can go forward to 2024 and basically think about an entire campaign military for joe biden. military for democrats. have a campaign called generally speaking where i get every general to come forward as we already have, and just come forward and said, i understand the importance of readiness. i understand the importance of defending our country, and -- >> by the way, they understand it better than you because as the senator said, we were in folusia. we were fighting across afghanistan and in iraq, tommy tuberville while you were sitting there playing appalachian state. >> so if you have the military supporting democrats, that's about as strong as an endorsement. >> not to disrespect the appalachian state at all.

some of the best people i know there. north carolina -- >> it's the point. it's not military. >> they love appalachian state. some of the best people i know are from appalachian state. >> good program. >> from auburn, it's a different level and blah blah blah. go ahead. >> that's the campaign i would run generally speaking and have generals speaking because if the republicans lose military and they've lost law and order, what do they have? they don't have that much left. they have nothing left if i really think about what they have been talking about lately. >> overthrowing the government. they get that. >> the other thing with tommy tuberville is i don't know whether the republican university of stupid performative art -- the game is -- >> josh hawley. >> whether you're josh hawley -- >> calling a guy whose mom survived the holocaust an anti-semite and whose family, a great number of them were lost in the holocaust calling them an

anti-semite yesterday. >> yep. >> tuberville, us hearing about this today. >> well, matt gaetz and what he's done, here's the formula. be really stupid, be really obnoxious. be completely, completely off your rocker and get exposure on television and raise money. >> put it on your instagram, but only where you're insulting them. >> i don't know where the school is where they're teaching that. >> josh hawley insults -- >> mayorkas. >> a man whose mother survived the holocaust, i think auschwitz, and he's so proud of it he puts it up on his instagram. >> mm-hmm. >> because he's that shameless. you know he should have gone -- >> he should have said an apology. >> any humanity at all, he would have apologized. no humanity, no shame. this is your republican party. >> and that's one of the key rules to donny. never apologize here. lean into it even when you insult the son of a holocaust

survivor. lean into it and raise some money off of it. we have had a lot of people asking us, how can this be? how can one person hold up the promotions? in the united states senate, one person can hold up anything. when the senator has made his or her point, we usually move along, but tommy tuberville standing alone among his republican colleagues. as he makes this stand choosing against the united states military in its readiness and for abortion, you know, being against abortion so that members of the military cannot go state through state to have health care, what is the world thinking as it watches this? what does it look like from london, from europe? what does it look like in the middle east with all the crises that are exploding? >> okay. it reminds me of something that was said during president obama. america faces three threats in the world.

a ring china, a declining russia, and dysfunction in american politics. when he was talking to me at the beginning of the obama administration, it seemed mild compared to what it is today. tuberville shows no signs of backing down and you have the consequences of that. people in military positions who are extremely tired. they are working as this general who was hospitalized was working from 5:00 a.m. in the morning to 11:00 p.m. at night doing two jobs. you don't make good decisions when you are working those hours, and you don't make the right decisions in america's best interest. it's all part of this questioning of whether america's governable. is this a country that works still? does it work on guns? does it work on security? does it work on a senate level? does it work on being able to keep itself open? does it work on being able to pay its bills? the dysfunction, you know, is

something that is sadly being baked into the equation amongst america's allies anded a ver -- adversaries. you don't want them to get used to this dysfunction. that's not a great position to be in. >> it is so strange. you usually have -- george, you'll have countries begin to fall apart, and that will be a leading indicator of a political system starting to collapse because it can't keep up. here, you have the united states military stronger than any military in the world, and if you look at it relative to the rest of the world, this is the strongest position we've been in since 1945, the england of world war ii. you look at our economy. katty talks about it and we could have ratner talk about it. to britain and china's economy, we are light years ahead of everybody right now. i mean, the fed is doing everything it can do to tamp

down and to beat down this economy. can't do it. we keep growing. we look into the education, and yes. you've got all these other problems. administrators who won't stand up to anti-semitism. at the same time, best colleges and universities on the planet. there's not a close second. everybody across the world sends their kids here if they can because they want them to come to america. we have a crisis on the southern border and even on the northern border now. why? not because america sucks. not because america's ungovernable because if you talk to any of those people crossing the border, if you talk to people in, you know, that have immigrated here legally which is the way we have to do it -- we have to get order and do it that way. what will they tell you? they'll tell you what they have told me. they really do believe america's streets are paved with gold. they really do believe america is the last hope for a dying

world. they believe it because compared to what they're living in and where they're living, we still are, and yet why is it with all of these indicators, with teen pregnancy at the lowest rate in 70 years, with childhood poverty going down, why is it that we have a washington that we have politicians there that are so unworthy of the nation they govern? >> because people vote for these politicians, and that is, to me, the big mystery. we live in a time where the standard of living we have today is as good as any group of human beings has had in human history. >> better. better. >> i mean, everybody out there including people who don't live so well, they have their fancy google phones and whatever, and they -- we have it so good that

some people just are looking for something to gripe about, and we've developed this. i'm trying to express it. it's a form of nihilism. they want to see institutions torn down because they're envious of other people because they feel they don't have enough. they feel they don't have enough satisfaction in their lives and they vote for these people and these people cater to them and raise money by catering to their anger and their -- i don't understand the dynamic, but there's a psychology here that sickness that pervades the country. >> the way it works is these people that are talking about tearing down institutions because they're not fair, the working americans then get their money, run for office, get elected, tear down america, and -- >> and complain about it. >> pass tax cuts that help the billionaires, the

multibillionaires. that's insane. all these $25 donations going to all these nihilists that say we're going to tear down the government. they don't do anything but help billionaires get even richer. >> yeah. >> it's crazy. >> george santos. >> it's crazy. it's almost like they're all watching something that's brainwashing them. coming up, we'll recap the big developments in donald trump's many legal cases from his gag order in washington to what his own sons said in court yesterday when it comes to allegations of fraud. >> i think it's tony montana he reminds me of. >> that's what it is. >> ever seen "scarface"? >> that's straight -- >> that was a great one. we'll be right back, everyone. >> thank you. one. we'll be right back, everyone. >> thank you liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? [dog barks] oh. no it's just a bunny!

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minute to respond. >> oh, i would, and i'm not sure i'll limit it to 60 seconds. >> that's fine. >> number one, what i found despicable is the implication that this language tremendously odious, actually it could be emblematic of the sentiments of the 260,000 men and women of the department of homeland security, number one, and number two, senator hawley takes an adversarial approach to me in this question and perhaps he doesn't know my own background. perhaps he does not know that i am the child of a holocaust survivor. perhaps he does not know that my

mother lost almost all her family at the hands of the nazis, and so i find his adversarial tone to be entirely misplaced. i find it to be disrespectful of me and my heritage, and i do not expect an apology, but i do want to say what i just articulate articulated. thank you. >> not only did he smear a holocaust survivor's son and smear a guy whose family -- a lot of his family was wiped out by the holocaust, he then put the clip up on his instagram and says, hawley smokes mayorkas. what, in the oven, josh? is that what you are saying, josh? seriously? no shame. then he goes on fox news and they do a victory lap about him

attacking a holocaust survivor's son. that is sick. that's exactly how they get away with it. >> yeah. >> and people that are watching are too stupid in this case to actually see that he's attacking holocaust survivors' families in the middle of the greatest anti-semitic campaign against jews. >> he knows what he's doing. >> where there's a war, a worldwide war against jews, and he attacks a jew, and she's shameless about it. then he goes on fox news and does a victory lap about it. >> anybody with integrity would have said, i'm so sorry. i did not know about your family's history. let's talk about the policy, but that's not who josh hawley is. >> he probably did know. >> he was there to post that clip. i smoked mayorkas. i'm going to go on fox news and

i'll do a touchdown dance about how i smoked mayorkas. >> are you really -- after you learned that his mother survived concentration camp and her family was burned in the ovens of auschwitz and other -- would you really say, i smoked mayorkas? would anybody be -- it's really -- >> sick. >> it's sick. >> it's sick. >> it's sick because he knows. >> this is how it works because they're in a safe bubble. it's from a red state or a safe district. he goes on fox news, he can post an alternate reality and raise money off of it. that's how he will get elected next time and raise money, and to our point, this is the playbook that donald trump taught him. it's don't apologize and be utterly shameless. no humanity or humility. >> there has to be some standard. if you want to fight him on the border, fair game. go after it. >> we'll do that. >> yes. go at him. >> we'll all do that. >> go at it and go sit with hannity and talk about the

border, but your context with what's happening in this country right now with anti-semitism, what's happening in the world to go celebrate an attack on a man who just told you his mother survived the holocaust, it is, it's sick. >> his voters, they don't know the truth. they're watching fox. they're listening to his -- they don't know. they think they're getting news. they think they're getting information. sorry. it's the truth. >> on the same network a couple of weeks ago, you had somebody actually saying elections don't matter on their biggest show. >> unchecked. >> elections don't matter. we're going to have to resort to violence. we're going to have to do what the north did during the civil war. we're going to have to resort to violence. elections don't matter. >> think about it. >> that's after they paid $787 million. that's after tucker carlson. that's before the billion dollar settlement coming up before them and they still let people go on their air saying elections don't

matter. we're going to have to resort to violence, and then they sit there and go, oh, wait. well, you know, they're not to be taken seriously, you know, like tucker's lawyers said, oh. nobody believes him. nobody believes him. you're not supposed to believe him. yeah, well, a lot of people did, and four cops are dead. coming up, we'll speak with israel's acare ron dermer. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." that's straight ahead on "morning joe." move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business.

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♪♪ donald trump jr. took the stand yesterday as a witness in the new york $250 million civil fraud trial. in his testimony that lasted

justt under an hour and a half- >> who does he look like there? >> okay. >> who does he look like? >> no. >> that doesn't look like him. >> serpico? >> he insisted he never worked on his father's financial statements. nobody say anything. >> i'm just curious what he looks like. >> ringo starr. >> trump junior is an executive vice president of the trump organization and acted as a trustee of a trust set up from former president trump's assets while donald trump was in office. the associated press reports at least one p of the annual financial statements bore languagest saying the trustees e responsible for the document. but donald trump jr. said he

didn't recall ever working on any of the financial statements and had no specific knowledge of them. don junior was the first of four members of the family to testify and will return to the stand today. eric trump is also scheduled to testify ttoday. ivanka trump and former president donald trump will take thedo standext week. donald trump was not in attendance for his son's testimony, but did react on his truth social page calling out the judge in the case, quote, leave my children alone. you're a disgrace to the legal profession. george conway, where do we begin? did they glean from him from the attorney general's side? >> i think they're trying to show that nobody is taking responsibility for these financial statements. the way it'ssupposed to work -- >> they're not going to take

responsibility. >> right. in a criminal case, that might work because you have to prove criminal intent beyond a reasonable doubt. the problem is this is a civil case. the statements have already been found to be false. the judge can make findings and say i don't believe that he didn't remember that, i don't believe he was relying on the accountant. the story doesn't make any sense. >> or that was negligence if he didn't remember. >> right. all he has to do is find 50.01%, more likely than not that there was fraud committed and they knowingly did that. it's easy to do. the judge will make credibility findings and say these people are all liars. >> asl we've seen in other cas that they'll try and delay it,

the trump side. can they? because this could be expensive. if he finally gets his punishment, they decide on a certain amount of money, how long can the trump side drag it out? the decision is on how much he pays, correct? >> there will be an appeal. the part of the judgment that has already been issued that cancels the business certificates of the trump companies has been stayed, understandably, because once yoe do that you can't reunscramble the eggs. they probably will get a stay pending appeal, but you have to post a large bond. it may take a couple of years for this to pan out in the appellate courts. but there's already been an interim receiver appointed. >> right. how is that impacting the business? >> they can't move assets around. they can't hide them. they're stuck. that's one of the reasons, i

think, donald is so upset and showing up at the trial every day. it's basically financial handcuffs already. who's going to loan money to these people? >> i see. george conway, thank you very much. coming up, how the war in the middle east is exposing deep divides on college campuses herc at home, often with ugly results. we'll talk about that straight ahead on "morning joe." we'll talk about that straight ahead on "morning joe. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight.

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♪♪ a few minutes before the top of the hour. welcome back. it's the fourth hour of "morning joe" now. it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. there's a lot to get to this hour, including the latest on evacuations from gaza as president biden again calls for a humanitarian pause in the israel/hamas war. meanwhile, here in the u.s., some in the jewish community are responding to the major rise in anti-semitism by becoming gun owners. we'll have new reporting on that

development. and we'll have expert legal analysis on the testimony from donald trump jr., who took the stand yesterday in his father's civil fraud trial. i believe he's coming back today. >> couldn't remember anything. >> no. always depended on the accountants for everything. more foreign nationals are expected to leave gaza today through the rafah crossing. the border with egypt reopened yesterday after qatar helped broker a deal amid international calls for a cease fire as food, fuel and medical supplies are running low in gaza. meanwhile, israel continues to move deeper into the territory, targeting hamas infrastructure and terrorists. raf sanchez has the very latest. >> reporter: overnight for the first time president biden calling for a humanitarian pause in the israel/hamas war. after being interrupted by a protester demanding a cease

fire, the president responding, quote, i think we need a pause. earlier the president said the u.s. is working to get americans out of gaza. >> working nonstop to get americans out of gaza as soon and as safely as possible. >> reporter: this morning, documents obtained by nbc news show around 400 u.s. citizens have been cleared to pass through the rafah crossing today into the safety of egypt. the border opened to civilians wednesday for the first time since the start of the war after painstaking negotiations. only a handful of u.s. citizens made it out, including a 71-year-old aid worker who came to gaza to make prosthetic limbs for children. >> i just want to throw my arms around her and hold onto her forever. >> reporter: for palestinians without a foreign passport, the only ticket out is a serious injury. this 8-year-old was one of

around 70 patients evacuated for urgent medical care in egypt. his family says he was injured by an israeli air strike and says his parents and grandparents were killed. bombs hit a refugee camp in northern gaza for the second time in two days, targeting what israel says was a hamas command center deliberately hidden under homes. today israeli troops continue to push deeper into the strip in their effort to crush hamas, but also taking casualties, at least 16 soldiers killed since the start of the invasion, yet more grief in a holy land that's already seen too much of it. >> meanwhile, a senior hamas official has vowed to repeat the attacks of october 7th again and again until israel is completely destroyed. >> again, we have here hamas

admitting who they are. they promised to keep raping jewish women and to keep shooting and burning jewish babies in their cribs. they promise to continue shooting young children in front of their parents and shooting parents in front of their children. the most savage attacks, they're proud of it. not only are they proud of it, there are college students in america on college campuses who are proud of it, saying looking at those videos make them feel empowered. you've got cemeteries being burned in austria. you've got jewish students being shouted down on german college campuses, saying send them to the gas chambers. in russia, they're shouting where are the jews in airports.

look at the "new york post." the paper of record for "morning joe." the "new york post," look at this image. this is happening everywhere. you have people tearing down posters of children who are being held hostage by a terrorist organization, and they're tearing it down and journalists are saying that this is an act of activism, that suddenly putting up posters of kidnapped children is activism. they didn't call that activism when they put missing kids on the back of milk cartons in the '80s and '90s. >> what is it about israel that makes people excuse this so quickly? they say you're just putting those up to provoke people to tear them down. if you see a picture of a

kidnapped child taken by a terrorist group and that baits you into tearing it down, that says everything about you, not the person who put it up. we're not going to play it, but that hamas spokesman in that interview yesterday went on at length that they'd do it again and again, it was a great day. he tried to say we didn't mean to harm civilians. the evidence speaks for itself. when people say let's have a cease fire with hamas, they just told you what they do with a cease fire. >> no cease fire with hamas, no cease fire with al qaeda, no cease fire with isis. all they do is they rebuild. they get stronger. we've seen what they do with aid. they build weapons and follow through with their promise to kill jews.

that's their entire purpose in their charter, to kill jews. >> that is their founding document, kill jews. it's been noted by others. there was a cease fire october 6th and hamas broke it. humanitarian pause, something else. we did hear president biden give an endorsement of that idea. >> what does that mean? >> it would mean an hours long pause in israeli bombing to allow some of the wounded to leave and some aid to come in. we are seeing some progress at the rafah crossing. yesterday for the first time, some foreign nationals, including a handful of americans, were able to leave. >> you know who stopped that. >> hamas. >> they don't want civilians going to safety. they want to keep hiding behind civilians. they want to hide underneath hospitals and refugee camps. they don't want palestinian families to be safe. they want them killed by jews. >> it has been an open secret in the middle east that the largest

hamas headquarters underneath a hospital in gaza. this is why israel struck at the refugee center in the last few days. they said they were harboring terrorists. the message all along has been to israel try to limit civilian casualties. there's been a lot of uproar in the region over that, but there's no question that president biden has made clear israel absolutely has the right to strike back and defend itself. >> let's bring in ron durmer. let's start with the strikes on refugee camps where palestinians were killed. can you tell us about the calculations you made in attacking a place like that? >> i want to thank all of you there for the basic moral

clarity. if you can't wholeheartedly condemn the attack that happened on october 7th, you're not for civilization. we have a lot of nuances in the middle east, a lot of nuances. but sometimes you have to draw a clear moral line. as for the attack that happened in the refugee camp, we've told everybody to leave those areas and most of the people have been out of the northern part of the gaza strip. there was about 1.1 million people before the war began. about 800,000 have left. some are in facilities like u.n. facilities and hospitals that are not being targeted. we told everyone to leave repeatedly. you saw a lot of people around that crater that are able-bodied people that should have been out of there. we have targeted to use these

weapons that can reach deep underground and hit the terrorists who are all hiding. we struck and killed them. those civilians should not have been there at all. it doesn't mean the act that israel had is not legitimate. we're targeting a terror tunnel network under the ground. we implore people to get out of the northern part of the gaza strip. go to the south. there are places in the south especially in the southwest that are safe zones where people will not be harmed. i hope they take that advice so not a single civilian has to be hurt. >> let's talk about the idea of a cease fire proposed by the u.n., for example, but also from groups across the united states, college campuses, things like that. we just discussed what the spokesman for hamas said in no uncertain terms that october 7th is the beginning and we'll do it again and again and again and just saying specifically that

the goal is annihilation of israel. what is the goal of a cease fire? >> it's like having a cease fire with isis or a cease fire with the japanese after pearl harbor or cease fire with the nazis. we have to defeat this enemy. we're going to have to eliminate hamas in gaza and make sure it no longer represents a threat to israeli people and frankly palestinians. we have to free gaza from hamas completely. any call for a cease fire is a big mistake. the issue becomes is there a pause here or there so you can get hostages out. that's a different story. i heard what the president said yesterday. it wasn't clear to me if that's what he was talking about. i think one of you said we want to make sure foreign nationals come out and aid gets in. we do that all the time. we're letting the aid get to

those areas that are the safe humanitarian zones. we're pleased that foreign nationals are being allowed to leave. there were several hundred who left yesterday. today there's supposed to be 500 including many, many americans. hamas prevented them from leaving for several weeks. israel is pleased to see them leave and i hope all of the 6,000 foreign nationals who want to leave will be able to leave that war zone. >> it's israel who has been telling palestinians to move south. it's the united states that's been pushing egypt to open the crossing so palestinians can go to safety. the organization for americans who are confused by hamas

propaganda, the organization that has been against that has been hamas. they have been against palestinians going to safety and they make these pronouncements from four seasons hotels in qatar and telling the palestinians to stay there and basically be human shields, because when a jew dies, it's great for hamas, and when a palestinian deals, it's great for hamas. ron, it's good to see you. i haven't talked to you since october 7th. we're all so sorry for what you and your country has gone through. >> thank you. >> i want to follow up on something joe biden said when he was having a press conference with the prime minister of australia. he, of course, wholeheartedly supported israel's right to defend themselves and take this war to hamas, and he will continue to do that. he did at the same time ask that extremists in the west bank not

do anything about palestinians that only fanned the flames of violence. do you agree with the president that israelis in the west bank need to treat their palestinian brothers and sisters with respect and show dignity? >> obviously. joe, there are other half a million people who live in the west bank. i think what the president was talking about is a very small group of people, a hundred or 200 who may try to attack this palestinian or that palestinian. when you're dealing with such a huge number of people, 500,000, you could have a very small extremist faction that could do those things. we're not going to allow anybody to target innocent civilians. it's unacceptable. when you're dealing with what we're dealing with now in gaza,

in the region, that is a tempest in a teacup. that's not the main issue. >> it's not the main issue. we've been talking about what hamas has done 98% of the time. i'm just asking you. it is so important that we do two things at once. we americans believe that the terrorists be rooted out, that hamas be destroyed, but the palestinians that are living there are shown a way forward, are given a reason to hope, to believe that maybe there's a two-state solution over the horizon after hamas is destroyed and israel actually has someone to negotiate with in gaza and in

the west bank. >> the issue is -- i'm not saying you're doing this, but sometimes this happens. you take something that is a completely marginal phenomenon and you think it's mainstream. every society, you can always have an extremist that's going to do something bad. the question becomes how does the society respond to it? does it condemn that action? does it try to spit those people out? or does it embrace it and celebrate it? >> and you've condemned it here this morning. >> i did condemn it. here's a basic moral difference. it has to be put to the palestinians not just in gaza but also in the west bank. the president of the palestinian authority has not condemned the acts of october 7th. when jews are murdered, those

actions are celebrated not just in gaza but in the west bank. that is a fundamental difference. we will not celebrate in israel the targeting of an innocent palestinian. no one does that. the society has to spit people out who would do these extremist actions. palestinians that have been educated to hate jews and destroy israel, instead of looking at the diplomatic statements made by all these officials, i'd ask you one show to devote five minutes to it, show what they're showing palestinian people on television not just in gaza but in the schools in the west bank. if we're going to have peace one day with the palestinians, we have to change this whole culture. we have to link our relations with the palestinians and our willingness to reach a political

settlement with them to a change in their entire approach and to make sure they're educating children for peace and not terror. >> thank you so much. israel's minister of strategic affairs ron durmer, good to talk to you. >> thank very much. >> thank you. a recent report by the anti-defamation league shows anti-semitic cases have climbed 388% since the hamas terror attacks. from october 7th to october 23rd, 320 anti-semitic incidents were recorded, more than half of which were linked to the war. jonathan greenblatt and william jacobson, good to have you both. >> we want you to come in at the end of every week, every friday

starting next friday to talk about this. there's a world wide war against jews, the 15 million jews that are still living. there's a war against them. unfortunately, we see a line from russians shouting at jews in the airport to jewish students in germany being chased across the campus to the shouts of "send them to the gas chambers" to cemeteries in austria being burned, jewish cemeteries in 2023, to what's happening on campuses in the united states. there are some videos that are absolutely disgusting. students at elite universities saying they feel empowered by the raping and killing and

torturing of jews on october 7th. >> yeah. i mean, to call it stunning doesn't begin to describe it. as jewish people, as myself the grandson of a holocaust survivor, i heard the stories about jews being beaten and burned in the streets of berlin or warsaw. i heard the stories of jews being mauled by cossacks. i heard the stories of jews in aleppo being suddenly overrun by neighbors wanting to tear them limb from limb. i never thought it could happen here, and yet here we are today. when you dehumanize people, when you delegitimize them, you

create the conditions in which massacres happen. we've seen this throughout jewish history. we've seen this throughout broader history. think about what happened in rwanda and bosnia. yet, there are leaders who suggest they should hold all jews responsible for what happened in the region. this is not really a war against israel versus hamas, although it is. it's not really just a war between the west and a radicalized islam, although it is. this is a war between hamas and the palestinian people. hamas for the last 15 years has built tunnels, not bomb shelters for their people. they've hoarded supplies for themselves, not their people. now they are allowing their people to be killed and killed and killed. it is just despicable. the lack of moral clarity by so many leaders in the west is stunning. you showed an image of a "new york post" headline.

i could tell you stories about what's happening on our campuses that would make your head spin. >> tell us. what's why you're here. tell us. >> i'll tell you about the story of the student at drexel university whose dorm room was set on fire because he had an israel sign on his door or the harvard student trying to walk across the quad who was visibly jewish and was literally seized and molested and assaulted by other students who screamed at him just because he was jewish. cooper union, which is a college here in new york city, there was a mob, a frenzied mob coming down the street. there were several visibly identifiable jewish students. they weren't wearing idf uniforms. the campus sec felt they could not keep them safe, so

they barricaded them in a room in the library. the mob saw this and went to the windows and banged on the windows and doors and chanted. the intifada was a series of terror attacks targeting jews in the 2000s. this is what the kids are chanting today at jews. it is inexcusable. it is unbelievable that we're seeing this. >> professor, you were a law professor at cornell, a prestigious ivy league university. how is it so many schools over the last decade or so that have taken such great care for the safety in many cases just protecting them from words or arguments they don't like to hear cannot take care with the

physical safety of jewish students? how can it be that that young student can walk across harvard's campus and be physically assaulted and those students not be expelled on the spot? what is happening with the leadership at these schools? >> there's a phrase that collapse happens slowly then suddenly. for jewish students on campus, we're in the suddenly phase of things. this has been building for 20 years. this didn't start on october 7th. you have a combination of 20 years of gross demonization of israel by groups like students for justice in palestine and by a lot of professors. multiple academic associations have endorsed that, holding israel out as uniquely evil. you have the racialization of the conflict where it's portrayed as a racial justice issue to be against israel,

which we all know is not true. so you have jewish students being squeezed and unfortunately the administrations don't seem to recognize what's happening. in some ways they have aided and abetted it, maybe unknowingly, by perpetuating racial stereotypes on campuses through diversity, equity and inclusion and other racial doctrines. jewish people feel squeezed, but this has been 20 years in the making. >> i'm so glad you said that, because it's something i know i've been talking about on this network for 20 years. jewish students, sometimes at ivy league schools, sometimes at usc, sometimes at state-run schools in the middle of america, jewish students have been targeted for decades. i've just got to ask why.

i've never really understood this. why is it that college professors and university presidents sit back and do nothing? again, not since october 7th, as you have said, but i talked about columbia for years in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, what was going on with the anti-semitism on that campus from college professors. why don't university presidents treat bigotry against jews the same way they treat bigotry against every other type of students? >> at cornell university in just the last decade there have been three boycott resolutions presented to student government, one of which was done over passover so the jewish students

wouldn't be able to be there. the administrations have been mostly silent about it. cornell has been good at opposing bds but there's a social justice movement and an activist part of campus which is not the majority, but cornell and other universities seem afraid of them. i think we need leadership at carnell and elsewhere that recognized the underlying problem. >> how orwellian the term social justice, these same people who proclaim themselves to be champions of social justice cheer on young women being raped and kidnapped, babies being burned to death in their cribs, being shot up at point-blank range, elderly people being

burned to death, and that being celebrated by the terrorists who are doing it who are wearing go pros so everybody can see this and celebrate the slaughter of jews. social justice warriors support this? yeah. actually, some who call themselves that do. >> yeah. it just shows you how morally bankrupt this movement is. professor jacobson got so much right. there has been a whole bds industrial complex that's settled on these universities. it's come in i think in part because of the fact that these anti-semites have dressed this up as social justice. i really appreciated what willie

said when he said they try to keep the kids safe from words. we've had this thing called cancel culture for a long time where you can get cancelled for saying the wrong thing. we need to move to consequence culture. consequence culture is that if you cheer the murder of babies, your future employer may decide they don't want to hire you or you're going to harass jewish students. guess what? you're going to get expelled. or you're going to make death threats against students threatening to shoot up the kosher dining hall? guess what? the fbi is going to knock on your door and you're going to get arrested. we need consequences where kids learn this is how the real world works. there are issues of good versus evil, and evil needs to lose.

god help us if our university presidents don't find their spines once and for all and draw a line here. >> i couldn't agree more. ceo of the anti-defamation league jonathan greenblatt and cornell professor william jacobson, thank you very much for the conversation this morning. the sharp rise in anti-semitism has prompted some in the jewish community to rethink how best to protect themselves, because in many cases they don't feel like anyone else is going to do it. sam brock is live in south florida with that part of the story. what did you find out? >> reporter: mika and joe, good morning. i found out that almost every person i spoke to told me they had no intention of owning a firearm or using a gun, but in light of the circumstances that have developed since october 7th, the anti-semitism and death threats, the burning of israeli

flags, they feel they have no choice and they are fearful for their families' safety. between the sounds of gunfire, you'll find jewish americans and israelis living here arming themselves at record rates following hamas' brutal october 7th attack and the anti-semitic threats that followed. >> i'm jewish and i have two little kids and i just want to defend myself. >> reporter: one of many jewish mothers we met now trying out firearms after seeing violent rhetoric explode on college campuses. here in miami beach, a man just slashed an israeli banner in the middle of the night, one of many

reasons moms like michelle worry about her kids walking home from school. >> who isn't upset over everything that's happening and any innocent life being destroyed is horrific. but screaming for my death because i'm a jew? no. >> reporter: at a firearm instruction class in south florida -- >> it's one of those things you don't want to need and not have. >> reporter: it's a profile of people you might not expect. >> i'm having an out of body experience sitting here. >> reporter: grandmothers and guns, not necessarily an obvious pairing. >> i just don't want to be a sitting duck if somebody comes to hurt me or my family. >> reporter: he sells firearms and offers classes and says his phone is ringing off the hook. did you see an immediate change after october 7th? >> yes. there was an uptick in jewish americans wanting to learn how

to protect themselves and their families. >> reporter: his classes went from one or two a week to one or two a day. how many of you thought you would never personally own other use a gun? it's not something many in this group have grappled with until now. this rabbi runs the only nonprofit on the west coast doing community-wide education, firearm training and security in los angeles where hundreds of people are showing up at meetings. >> since october 7th there's been an insane spike. i'm telling people before 9/11 to after 9/11 flying will never be the same. and after october 7th jewish communal security will never be the same. >> what we know about the jewish

community having experienced persecution for so many generations is that we say never again, but we can sense when things are starting to shift. we need to take actionable steps to do things in order to feel grounded, safe and in control. >> reporter: for many of these mothers, there are still reservations. >> it's scary. >> reporter: she says ultimately she probably can't wield a weapon, but many others say it's a crossroads they've been approaching for years. it's important to note it's not just incidents of anti-semitism that have spiked since october 7th. the counsel on islamic relations also note they have received more than 700 complaints since the war started. they are pleading with public officials to stop this wave of hate from spiraling more out of

control. >> nbc's sam brock, thank you for that report. >> they need to do that. it is important to remember what director wray said, willie, that jews make up 2.4% of the population and yet account for over 60% of hate crimes. >> exponentially. >> exponentially more than any other group. >> we've gotten used to living in new york city. on saturdays and friday nights you're seeing nypd just as a matter of routine outside synagogues. just to think about going to worship with your family and have that go through your head. coming up on "morning joe," donald trump jr. testifies at his father's civil trial in new york. we'll go over his day in court and what to expect from eric trump when he takes the witness stand today. from eric trump when he takes the witness stand today. rsv is in for a surprise.

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trump's lawyers are reportedly having trouble making sure they can even go to all of his trials because there are so many of them. there are court dates today in both new york and florida. never has a team of attorneys racked up more billable hours that they will not ever get paid for. >> yeah, there's that. donald trump jr. took the stand yesterday as a witness in the new york $250 million civil fraud trial. in his testimony that lasted just under an hour and a half, he insisted he never worked on his father's financial statements and relied on others, staff members to verify the accuracy of documents. don junior will return to the stand today. eric trump is also scheduled to testify today and ivanka trump and the former president will

take the stand next week. joining us now is charles coleman and dave aronberg. charles, i'll start with you. earlier we were talking to george conway about this. this trial is already costing the trump organization on many levels. everyone's trying to surmise why donald trump, the former president, is so freaked out by this one of many trials he's dealing with. but it is sort of paralyzing the business, is it not? >> of course. i think one of the things you would need to understand is that even though the judge already ruled in favor of the state on summary judgment because the judge did not render a decision in terms of the penalty, there is a lot at take in terms of trump's future around the business dealings in the state of new york. ultimately the situation could very well result in the dissolution of his businesses right here in new york city.

that's a big deal, because that's where a significant amount of his holdings come from. >> they're kind of nonfunctional now because of that looming. >> absolutely. >> hard getting loans. >> insurance, all sorts of things in terms of getting credit, being able to buy things, being able to hold assets. i would imagine we are going to see at some point a liquidation of a number of his holdings here. this is a problem if you want to continue to do business here in new york. >> of course, trump tower is here in new york city and potentially vulnerable. let's get your assessment of what we heard from donald trump jr. yesterday. it will continue today and then eric trump will take the stand. did he seem credible to you? what sort of messages was he trying to get across? >> i thought he was sergeant schultz from "hogan's heros." i know nothing, that's what he

gave off. he said he was not involved in the preparation of his father's financial statements even though he was a trustee in his father's revocable trust after he took office in 2017. if you ever watched "the apprentice" he was right there in the middle of everything and afterwards he was shown to be the heir apparent. as of yesterday, he was just unaware of everything. he's a named codefendant here along with eric, so he's got a lot to lose. ivanka is not a named defendant. she was dropped from the case. it will be interesting to see how her testimony differs. there's some word that perhaps the trump organization may try to offload the assets to ivanka, who's again not named as a defendant to try to save themselves. desperate people do desperate things. >> talk about what happened down there with judge cannon, the documents case.

looks like a delay down there. dave, can you hear me? >> yeah. the strongest case against donald trump -- i can hear you. >> can you hear me? three, two, one, go. >> thanks, joe. so the strongest case against donald trump is the mar-a-lago documents case, but it's also the case that is least likely to go before the election you have judge cannon there. she gave another confounding ruling yesterday, a ruling that helps donald trump that says that the codefendants are not going to have a blanket ban on seeing the classified documents in this case. the department of justice is going to have to litigate this later on a more individualized basis. it's going to delay things further. plus, she said she's open to moving this case back more because it could conflict with

the washington, d.c. case. don't expect him to try to seem a recusal, though. i think it's very interesting that judge cannon, who's a former prosecutorer, has a reputation of being proprosecution except when the defendant in front of her is donald trump. then all of a sudden she's better call saul. >> this judge is perceived as being the most friendly to donald trump. the date set now is may 20th of 2024. looks like that's going to be pushed. do you see any world where this trial goes before the election next year? >> i don't. i think that is in many respects by design. we know because she is a trump-appointed judge, early on this defense team was banking on the fact that they were going to get some favorable rulings.

everything that has happened up and until this, including the fbi and doj's investigation has been in favor of donald trump and what he's wanted to do. i suspect what we will likely see is his defense team to try and use that date because it was their earliest case brought by doj as a benchmark for when things should proceed. in d.c., judge chutkan is not going for that. she's on a different track in terms of moving her case forward. trust and believe his attorneys would love to use that and set that as the benchmark and say, hey, this is going first, so everything should follow after that, which would push all of his trials after the election, but that's not likely to happen. >> in d.c. are we going to hold pretty close to that early march date? >> i would think so. >> wow. charles coleman and dave

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there are an awful lot of characters in our show. >> how are we going to differentiate? >> great question, doug. but using these hats. >> oh! >> aren't they beautiful? >>

wow, unique two-man show. >> guttenberg, the musical. that is good stuff they play two friends bitten by the broadway bug. they realize there's very many documented about his life, they decide to fill in the blanks themselves. josh and andrew join us. >> you guys come in like a hurricane. >> yeah. >> a lot. if there's a lot going on here. >> there's a lot of nothing but love. >> it's great to be on "morning joe." >> thank you so much. >> this feels very nice because we got to announce we're doing the show on the show. >> this makes me feel very tall, which i'm not. >> and how is it working together is -- >> tough. >> tough. >> you guys know. you have to fake it until you make it. >> exactly. sometimes i don't know if you

know this, mika, but when you hear somebody calling and they're weeping on the phone, it's josh. he's like i can't deal with him. another day, another night. >> it makes me feel unsafe. >> it does make you feel unsafe. >> bubble wrap. >> this is hard for you, andrew, is it not? and it has been for a very long time. the book of mormon was 2000 -- >> that was you? you were great in that. >> thank you, you too. >> it says here that you have told friends that working with josh is the single most degrading experience. [ laughter ] >> this is inside the actor's studio where you just make shit up. >> thank you so much. >> so anyway, so the most degrading experience of your life. how? >> it often can be. no, it's very rewarding. it's very -- >> yeah, you don't mean that though. >> i don't. >> we are having the best time together. andrew and i love each other very much. >> you work together, like.

>> actually, i will tell you the truth. >> please do. >> this is the only guy i would come back to broadway with. took me a decade, you know. i was working on myself. i wanted to find an inner peace before i came back. >> how's that worked out for you? >> it hasn't. that's why i'm back here. >> still working on it. >> i'm still working on it. >> with the help of andrew i know i can satisfy that itch. >> explain the show. >> thank you. >> you're welcome. >> alex keeps screaming talk about the show. >> talk about the show. >> okay. so the show is, as you said, it's two guys who decided to write a musical. they're new fans to musical theater, and they have decided to write a historical musical about yohan guttenberg, but there's not a lot of information about yohan guttenberg so they make it up. they figure it's historical fiction. most of the show is sort of a presentation of this musical about gut guttenberg.

we do talk directly to the audience. >> here's another scene, guttenberg, the musical. >> i used to work in a nursing home. >> we still do. >> yes. and we would do these lip sync concerts for people in wheelchairs. >> they are such a great audience. >> yeah, it was mostly classics. we would do like frank sinatra, james brown, cynthia lauper. >> but sometimes we take requests. >> this one day this poker from the back of the room named fran mccalliste are. >> they have no idea what a poker is. >> in nursing home lingo, we call someone a poker if you have to poke her to make sure she's still alive. >> that's rough. >> they really love everyone, and they love musical theater, and they love to -- actually, the show is really -- it's so funny, but it's got such enormous heart, and people leave the show like feeling -- like

people have come up to us, and they're like it's like watching ted lasso on stage. it's just like you feel so good afterwards without the sports. >> there's no sports. >> but they also say it's like watching the new beckham documentary. so it's weird. >> i really want to see that. >> this is the play people -- have you seen guttenberg. it's a thing now. it's because the two of you are back together. >> it's exciting. >> fond memories. >> and yet you refuse to listen to these anonymous people. >> they're not coming. >> they've ruined my children, so i have to -- go ahead. >> open loudly a bag of twizzlers. >> how's it going so far? >> this is so good. i don't want to break up the chemistry right here. each and every night, how much are you like ad libbing, how much are you staying on the script. >> it is mostly very, very

scripted i will say. we did find out on halloween night why people don't do broadway shows on halloween night and that our theater is not soundproof. >> oh, no. >> it was very loud. so when things like that happen, we are allowed to sort of address, you know, rowdy audience members, people, you know, things happening. >> it's one of the rare shows that doesn't have a fourth wall, so we constantly can break to the audience and say things. there's also a component of the show that's really special without giving anything away, and yet giving so much away. there's a special guest at the end of -- >> yes, every night we've had nathan lane, we've had jason alexander this week. josh grobin. mika and joe are coming. >> are children allowed to see this? >> children are always welcome. anyone over 2. you don't want to bring a baby to any theater really. or pets or dogs. >> i screwed up with the book of

mormon. >> fortunately the kids were 5 and 7, okay? what are you doing? >> by the way, there were warnings all like outside the theater, don't bring children to this show. the creators of south park. >> gutenberg the musical. >> i want andrew just to hit it really quickly, orlando, three, two one. >> that's not -- i'll do it. ♪ orlando ♪ >> and that's why andrew got to sing that song and not me. >> that was pretty good. >> let's not encourage him. >> we're very excited. james earl jones theater in new york now through the end of january. josh gad, andrew reynolds. >> i'm excited even though liked behind my eyes. i cannot wait. >> that does it for us this morning. >> i'm going to soldier through it. >> ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. break.