about the future of the party, heading into the 2024 presidential election. >> do you think abortion is an issue that will direct who you choose in the primaries? >> yes, absolutely. if someone was like hey, i want to impose a six-week ban, i would never vote for that person. >> i think the abortion issue is a lot bigger than most people have realized it is. you know, for republicans. >> on tuesday, the state goes to the polls. the message it sends will be felt nationwide. stephanie gosk, nbc news, delaware county, ohio. >> a confrontation with a leader of hamas that happened right in the middle of this interview, nbc's matt bradley is gonna join we had to tell us about the heated back and forth that he had. the next hour starts right now. starts right now >> i bet you a good day from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome everyone to this hour of alex witt reports. it seven pm estimate fall so

the middle east. we begin with breaking news on the israel-hamas war. here's what's new at this hour. right now, thousands are gathering in washington d.c. to protest the war, and call for a cease-fire. we will have a live report from there in just a moment for you. secretary of state, antony blinken repeats calls for a humanitarian pause in israel's retaliation in gaza. but israeli prime minister met benjamin netanyahu says no, unless it's tied to the release of hostages. there are increasing reports of attacks on palestinians, and the occupied west bank, carried out by israeli soldiers and settlers, and the u.s. is advising all americans to leave lebanon now, fearing escalations in the war. and the idf has released this new video that it says shows soldiers attacking tunnels along the gaza strip. arab leaders meeting with secretary blinken in jordan today, joining the call for humanitarian pause, echoed by thousands protesting on the

streets of london again today. and by leaders of aid agencies around the world. >> -- in the shoes of a parent, a parent of a child who is abducted, and think about what that will be like. then ask yourself, why would we not stop the violence in order to get aid in, to get started on some level of recovery to get started, to help children process this trauma. >> this new video shows delivery of bottled water to a hospital in gaza. almost 700,000 people are displaced. and without steady supplies of water, food, and fuel. americans allowed to leave gaza through the rafah border crossing in egypt say their hearts are heavy for those left behind. many children are among them. >> my dad told me to be safe. he hugged me, he kissed my forehead, because he is very

worried. he told me he loves me, and to stay safe, and always remember. >> and here's a look at the latest casualty numbers of this war, almost 9500 killed in gaza, with 32,000 wounded. more than 130 killed in the occupied west bank, more than 1900 rather wounded their. 1400 killed in israel, with more than 5400 wounded. our nbc news reporters join us now from the israel and lebanon, with all the latest developments. as i welcome you both, we'll go first to you, nbc's jay gray in tel aviv. what can you tell us about secretary of state blinken's meeting today with arab leaders, and about all the calls for humanitarian pause? >> yes, alex, one of the primary focuses of this discussion was a pause for humanitarian aid to move in more. we are seeing more food, water, medicine moving into gaza, but not nearly enough, according to the arab leaders, and secretary blinken, who said that a pause

would help that effort. here is what he talked about today. >> what we're working on now is expanding that access. making sure that more is getting to people who need it. and that we have the structure in place to be able to absorb it. to use it, distributed it,, this is exactly what we're doing. when i was in israel yesterday, this was a big purpose of my conversation with the israeli government. and it's also, as i mentioned, one of the reasons why we think it'll be important to have humanitarian pauses. >> yes, you hear him say humanitarian pause. is the arab leaders are all calling for an immediate cease-fire in the region. so what is the difference? well, if it's a cease-fire, everything stops. what secretary blinken has said, is that will give hamas time to reorganize, refortify, and be prepared once that ends. if it is some type of

humanitarian pause, that can happen regionally, there could be sections where there is a pause. as fighting continues in other areas. and it could be much shorter. and so that is something that many believe israel could ultimately agree to. they haven't, at this point, and they continue to say, the only way there will be any pause, is if all hostages are released. what the secretary of state said today, is that he believes it would be very helpful to gaining the release of those hostages, to take the pause first. a way to get them out. >> okay jay gray, thank you, a perfect setup for my next conversation. right now, joining, me admiral james -- . all right, sir, as i welcome you, we just heard from secretary of state antony blinken, who is in jordan meeting with arab leaders. how do you perceive the u.s. will right now, in the region, as it seeks to stop a broader conflict from breaking out --

does blinken's presence, does his messaging, so far, appear to be effective in brokering any kind of cease-fire or, god willing, ultimately, peace? >> a bit too soon to tell alex. but i think he is doing a good job kind of trying to strike a balance between israel on the one hand, and palestinians and other arab states on the other hand. he is trying to strike a balance between all oh continuing hostilities, and a total in place cease-fire, where this administration is encouraging israel to go. i think it's the right place, to conduct a series of humanitarian pauses. jay explained it perfectly. the difference between the two, i think he is doing a reasonably good job kind of moving the dialogue in that direction. final thought here, alex, he is also the leading edge of deterrence against iran

interfering, unleashing hezbollah, and launching additional attacks. so he has got, kind of a twofold mission, on the one hand, find balance over here, between the combatants, trying to encourage the humanitarian side. on the other hand, continue the message of deterrence for iran. it is a complicated mission. i think our secretary of state is handling it well. >> can i ask you, something that i also asked of aly rousey, when he was reporting last hour from tehran, this difference between the verbiage, if you will, although, if you have a military assessment of the difference between a humanitarian, pause and a cease-fire -- please explain that. because, from my very basic perspective here, they are just trying to get in some humanitarian aid. cease-fires, i recall, they get canceled all the time. someone lights out, there you go, the cease-fire is off. why not just allow in the aid? who cares what it is called.

>> i think you are right to simply point out that it is all about getting the aid in. and what the israelis would say, they don't want a full spectrum, total cease-fire throughout all of gaza. what the israelis want, is the capability to move the humanitarian aid up from the south, while they continue on the offensive operations of the gaza city. the problem becomes, of course, what about civilians in gaza city? and that is where i think israel is going to have to ultimately show some movement, and give those kind of temporal pauses, that can allow that aid to flow up from the south, into gaza city, and give aid and comfort to the civilians, who are still trapped in that part of the battlefield. >> so this ground operation in gaza, as you know, it has, so far, stopped short of those all out infantry and tank assault

that many expected. i'm curious why this somewhat more measured strategy, to what extent are these kind of things driven by military considerations, versus diplomatic calculations. and even public opinion. because as you know, public opinion, it seems to be turning somewhat against israel, as all of the gaza civilian casualties increase so dramatically. >> yes, you hit all three of the factors that are involved here. one, militarily, you want to move in relatively slowly, in a situation like this. because the combat on the ground is so complex. and your enemies, in this, case hamas, they could be high in buildings, they could pop up from tunnels. you are going to take a pretty measured pace going in there. you do not want a hamas formation popping up behind you from a tunnel for example. so there is a military component. secondly as you said, diplomatic component. israel is very mindful of

international opinion here. it is trying to strike a balance, without losing even more support, and you can feel that support bleeding out right now. and then, thirdly, as we were just discussing, humanitarian aid. i think partly, israel, which does not seek to deliberately kill civilians, unlike hamas, there was no cease fire for israelis three weeks ago. this was a case of understanding that the israeli defense forces are willing to do this, and willing to allow that humanitarian aid to come in. i think it is all three, alex. >> okay. as you know, blinken, just earlier renewed calls for leaders to do everything in their power to protect civilians in gaza. let's take a listen to part of what he said, sir. >> now, the united states believes all of a sudden -- would be facilitated by humanitarian pauses. we believe pauses could be a critical mechanism, protecting

civilians, getting aid in, getting for nationals out. while still enabling israel to achieve effective to defeat hamas. yesterday i spoke adapt with israeli leaders about how, when, and where such arrangements could be implemented. and what needs to be done to make them possible. today, regional partners discussed many of the same questions. >> not long after that, prime minister benjamin netanyahu said there will be no cease-fire until hostages in gaza are released. i'm curious for where you sir, stand given your vast experience. where you stand on humanitarian pause right now. and would israel end up gaining public support by effort in one? or could hamas use the time to regroup? >> it is a bit of both. but i think, on balance, if i were advising the israelis as a professional military officer, i would say, conduct these pauses. take some breaks from combat,

make them public, make them useful for the civilians, and, alex, i've done this again and again throughout my career and command in afghanistan, in libya, the war in libya, we were always ready to hit pause. for example, when the international committee of the red cross came to us during the libyan campaign, and said, hey, we need to move supplies into this particular region of libya. we were always willing to take a temporary pause in our operations to facilitate it. i do not see a downside to israel in that approach. >> big picture though, on friday, the leader of hezbollah, hassan does rolla, said the battles with israel along its northern border are intended to occupy israeli forces -- he also warned that hezbollah could escalate its involvement. so as you listen to, i'm how concerned are you that the war could spread to the west bank,

or even a wider conflict in the region? >> certainly, i am concerned. any sentient observer would be. but i'll give you three reasons i don't think this is going to spread. number one, listen to nasrallah, he really walked up to the edge of saying we are going to conduct attacks. but he did not. there will be some skirmish, but, i listen carefully to what he said, i did not hear him letting slip the dogs of war up to the north. number two, watch iran. those remarks were crafted, vetted, approved, in tehran. that tells you iran is also not ready to widen this conflict. number three, you're showing a map, off to the left to that map, in the eastern mediterranean, to american aircraft carriers, a ton of combat aircraft, likewise, air force aircraft in the theater. u.s. marines.

that is a lot of deterrence. it is pointed at tehran. i think for those three reasons, in my view, alex, knocking on wood here, it is on likely we will see a wider war here. let's call it a 10% chance, 15% of it widening. still uncomfortable, but certainly not the main thrust of where events are going to go, in my view. >> i am very glad to hear you say. it let's hope you are 100% correct sir, admiral, as always, it is a pleasure. thank you. >> what happened to lead to one of the more explosive moments in the trump, new york fraud trial? a firsthand account. and why ivanka trump's testimony matters. we are back in 60 seconds. are back in 60 seconds. i help others. but i need to help protect myself. honestly? i couldn't afford to get sick. i want to be there for this one. i can't if i'm sick. pneumococcal pneumonia is a potentially serious bacterial lung disease. you may be at risk if you're 19 to 64

with certain chronic conditions. or if you're 65 or older. don't pause a moment longer. ask your doctor or pharmacist about getting vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia today. [stomach growling] it's nothing... sounds like something. ♪when you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion♪ ♪upset stomach, diarrhea♪ pepto bismol coats and soothes for fast relief when you need it most. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. >> donald trump will take the witness stand with a 250 million dollar lawsuit against him in his company, that resumes monday. his daughter ivanka testified wednesday, and the hearing is taking a somewhat, knew an explosive turn, what the judge

issuing a new gag order, after comments about his law clerk from trump's lawyers. those comments made a note in court. nbc news investigator reporter, chloe atkins was there in that court. she joins me right now. so, what is judge arthur engoron saying about this new gag order? why is it necessary? >> the judge says this gag order is super necessary, due to the comments surrounding his law clerk. he has been very protective of his staff since the get-go of this case. he says that it is necessary because of trump's attorneys, they have made statements about his law clerk, that you know, don't hold. basically, how it kind of came to this moment, was that they went head to head over the law clerk. they said that she was biased, they said she was left leaning, and they said that the note passing between the judge and the law clerk was improper, irregular. the judge says, you know, those arguments won't hold. i have an unfettered right to communicate with my staff, and this gag order will bar you

from talking about communications between me and my staff throughout the rest of this trial,. >> that's interesting. we know -- 15 grand for breaking the, violating gag orders against him. what can the judge, what can even his lawyers do to rein him in? >> to rein trump in? >> yes. >> i think what it really boils down to is the judge has made it very clear, he will ramp up the sanctions, and keep going. at one point even threatened jail time. the last time around. so i think that weighs pretty heavy. i think this latest gag order that was brought down on friday, it reaffirms that. so at this point, i think the messaging and communication on where the judge stands, and what steps he might take if any of these orders are broken, is very clear. >> there's been a lot of focus on the fact that ivanka trump is going to be testifying on wednesday. yet she has not been with the organization since 2017, which when she that left and went to

work in the white house for her father. what are they expecting her experience with trump inc. will bring? what did she do for the company? >> sure, she had, she was head of development and acquisitions of the trump organization. she was a trump executive, as was don jr. -- >> acquisition of loans? >> exactly. >> exactly? >> it's right in line of the core of this case. so she, as the -- has alleged, she was the top negotiator for the bank loans, where they were able to allegedly save millions of dollars. we expect the questioning to be about these loans that she was able to obtain for the trump organization, the transactions that took place. and also, what documentation was used to get these low interest rates. so that is what i am really interested in. and it is what exhibits are brought forward -- >> i know where you'll be all day wednesday. that's for sure. >> you'll be back here on the weekend. giving us an update. thank you chloe, i appreciate

that. well, for some legal analysis on all, this let's bring in former federal prosecutor, kristy greenberg. welcome. the judge already found donald trump and his two sons guilty of fraud. this whole quarter billion-dollar trial is to determine the actual penalty for fraud, and the toll it will ultimately take on the family businesses. will eric and don junior's testimony lesson that financial blow? were they effective in defending their actions, and those of the trump organization? >> they were not. so in addition to looking at the penalties for what the judge has already found to be business fraud, there are additional claims of fraud in terms of falsifying financial statements, insurance fraud, and so, with respect to these remaining actions, really, the two things the judges looking for is, was there and intent to defraud from any of these defendants? and was the fraud, was it

material? did the banks, did the lenders, did the insurance lie on these false statements? and so, the a.g. scored a number of points from both don junior and eric trump on both those points. don junior tried to blame accountants, i had nothing to do with putting together the statements, but there is a pivotal moment where donald trump jr. is shown an email from forbes. where they are alerting him to errors in the financial statements. in particular, airs about the actual size of donald trump's apartment, at trump tower. and what is don jr. do? he gets that email, acknowledges the email, and kelsey accountants, there are no material misstatements. the financial statement is accurate, with all of the errors that he was alerted to. >> so hang on -- was not a gotcha moment? >> yes, that is a gotcha moment. he knew about the false statements. he knew these were material. he knew they were large numbers. and he went ahead and intended

that they inaccurately say that these were, these were correct figures. >> and again, i keep asking, if they say, i'm relying on the advice of these, you know, advisers and accounts that we pay millions of dollars to, we just signed off. is that a viable defense? it essentially is ignorance, saying i didn't bother reading it, i just signed it. it's not a defense? >> just think about anytime that you're dealing with an accountant, or somebody who's helping you prepare tax returns. you give them the information, and then they can enter it into -- the information has to come from them. and there was some really great testimony with respect to eric trump, where he is confronted with emails. and with calls, showing that he knew that the appraisers are appraising the properties at far lower values than actually what ended up being in these financial statements. i mean, think about if you went to a bank, and asked for, alone and said, as collateral, my house is worth twice of what it

really is. it's just blatant fraud. this is not about, you, no accounting principles, and trying to understand details of generally accepted accounting principles, this is just plain fraud. you are making up numbers. that was pretty clear from clear evidence calls, and emails shown to eric trump. where, and his response was, well, i just didn't focus on the appraisals. i was a construction guy. >> right, he was pouring concrete, remember? pouring concrete. okay. >> right, right. >> let me ask you about judge engoron's expansion of his gag order on -- you came up with that fray trial, it is bookended by the judge, clashing with trump's attorney chris. kai aqua's, accusation's his law clerk was biased. does the trump team get anything by engaging in this back and forth with that judge? who basically, he will be making the decisions here. >> they certainly gamed nothing with the judge. i think they are creating a

particularly effective record for their appeal. it seems as though his lawyers are really acting as donald trump's pr machine. donald trump is under a gag order that he can't attack the judicial staff that this law clerk, this poor woman who is just doing her job, and so now, the lawyer seem to have taken up the mantle to do just that. really, what are they trying to do? i think they are trying to distract from, what i just talked about, which was pretty damaging testimony that the new york a.g. was able to illicit from both of his sons at trial. >> with donald trump taking the stand on monday, ivanka on wednesday, how important is their testimony? could it change the trajectory of this trial? >> i think ivanka's gonna be interesting. she is certainly going to be asked about these loans. she was the principal contact with deutsche bank, the largest lender to the trump organization, and really, she was involved in communicating

what donald trump's net worth was. and deutsche bank has certain numbers that donald trump needed to continue to maintain as his net worth, in order to keep those loans. expect testimony to be relevant as to that. with respect to donald, trump i anticipate his testimony is going to be denied, deny, deny. deny the statements are not great. he's actually claiming his net worth was higher than what the judge has already found to be inaccurate. deny that anybody would rely on these statements. deny that, you know, he had any involvement, and just blame the accountant, blamed a lawyer, blame the cfo, anyone without the last name of trump. >> i'm supposed to go, but i have one quick question in regards to ivanka. if she were to speak the truth, and if that truth were to say, yeah, we inflated these things for these loans, -- does she have some sort of legal ramification of fault? --

she is not a defender in their skates. her involvement was too old to be part of this case. but, there could be other prosecutors opposite that are looking at this. so she would certainly have some exposure, potentially criminally for those kinds of statements making false statements, knowingly to a bank, that is a federal crime. >> okay. all right, thank you kristy greenberg, as always, it is good to talk with you. in the meantime, the moment matt bradley's interview with a hamas leader got contentious. nbc reporter himself joins me next with how that all went down. down they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a chromebook. now they're focused on learning knowing that their data is secure. ( ♪♪ ) right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free.

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to nbc's exclusive and ntentious if interview with a senior hamas official. he was pressed on his vowed to repeat the attacks again and again until israel was quote, annihilated. nbc's matt bradley conducted that interview. matt is joining me right now from beirut. what an interview matt. but, let's talk about the sit down, first of all, how did this come about in lebanon? i'm curious, what was the tone of this hamas official leading into, it and throughout your discussion? >> yes, alex. this is a man who i've interviewed back in the past when i used to cover this region for the wall street journal before even came to nbc news. i reached out to him, we've kind of been speaking to him throughout the last several weeks.

this is a man who, like a lot of other hamas officials who i've spoken to, feels that he and his cause have been deeply misunderstood by the west. while a lot of our viewers will consider him in his organization to be kind, of public enemy number one, he really does feel as though he wants to have a fair hearing. and so yes, you mentioned this was contentious, but we left each other smiling, and you know, he really felt as though he was grateful that out the opportunity to be heard. here's what he told me. >> did hamas kill civilians on october 7th? >> look, we never had intention or -- it is prohibited to harm, or to kill civilians. but when people went inside, there's a wide area, there's people, there's some complication -- >> will you release all of the hostages for a complete cease-fire? >> look, i think we are human

beings. we want these people to go home. we want to. and also, we want our prisoners to go home. so i think we are -- now, to have complete compromise, complete deal in order to -- either military or civilians, and their release from israeli detention centers. >> how can you ask for a cease-fire, how can you stop ask israel to stop aggression, when you go on television in lebanon, here, and say that you will continue aggression. you will continue october 7th again, and again. >> what do you want to do? to stop? >> if you're asking for a cease-fire. if you're asking for a cease-fire, it has to be two ways. >> i'm talking we want to help continue this occupation. this is our leader, to fight against the occupation. according to international law, according to all -- in europe you fight against the not sees. >> so, again, alex, after this

interview, we parted ways. i texted him, he said that it was a pleasure to speak with us. and you know, a lot of our viewers, again, are going to think of this as a meeting with the devil. but this is a man who really does believe in his cause. there are other parts of the interview that were less contentious, where he really did state the need for the world to listen to the palestinian people with more earnest-y, and with more understanding of what they've endured for generations. alex. >> okay, i understand all of this. but as i was listening to this interview, it came off as either disingenuous, or, or he has left sort of the day today if you will operations. because he is in leadership. when he says that it is not our intent in hamas to kill civilians, it is exactly what they did in a monstrous way on october 7th. how can he say that with a straight face?

>> yeah, that was one of the things i was pressing him on. it is hard to believe that they didn't intend to kill civilians. the fact is though, when i speak to him about that, and when you speak with a lot of leaders of hamas about that particular issue, they will immediately bring it back to the civilians that the israelis have killed in the gaza strip. now we are talking about well more than 9000 ever since that october 7th attack who have been killed, a huge number of whom are children. so undoubtedly, innocent as well, so this is the disparity that he sees has not been represented in the west. particularly by western media. people like you and i. and he wants it to be heard. that yes, he says civilians were killed, he said things about complicated on the ground when the attack started. now obviously, that really doesn't sound very credible at all. but he does, and other leaders of hamas do bring it back to the fact that there has been a massive blood letting in the gaza strip among civilians there, to the tune of thousands. that was another thing i pressed him on.

did any of these civilians in the gaza strip ask for that operation on october 7th? did they vote for, that? they weren't party to planning, and they had no political art under divot or than hamas. alex. >> it's extraordinary, the other thing i want to take issue with, did he elaborate at all when he said we are human beings, we want these hostages to go home. did he explain any further as to that why they aren't going home? >> well yes, because he thinks that they need to be leveraged. this is something that is been clearly stated by hamas, he wants something in return. if you asked them, if you ask hamas, or other residents of gaza, even those who don't support hamas, another question of hostages, they will say that they have been held hostage by israelis in a blockaded coastal enclave for the last 17 years. so when you talk about civilians, dead in israel, they will bring it back to the civilians who have been killed in the gaza strip. if you talk about hostages who have been taken among israelis, they will bring it back to the

hostage taking among the 2.2 million people who live in the gaza strip. so, he will always have an answer for that. and it's not always something that is easy to buck up against, when he is pointing to an abiding reality on the ground, i've been to the gaza strip as many times, and i can tell you, i can speak to the personal suffering i've seen with my own eyes. he knows it too. >> we all see it for our own eyes. matt bradley, thank you so much. great conversation, and interview that you have conducted. the fallout from the israel-hamas war scene on the streets of the u.s. at this hour, thousands attending a rally. we have a live report from d.c., next on that. but first, we are going to give you a look at the sunrise, just a few minutes ago, over waikiki beach in honolulu. and why are we showing you this? because hawaii, and most of arizona don't observe daylight saving time. so they are remaining in standard time year-round. well, tonight, when the rest of us fall back to standard time, in turn our clocks back one hour, so, i mean, if you don't

like daylight saving, time you nowhere to move. that would not be a bad place, what it? place, what it?

>> breaking news with live pictures right now from d.c., where a massive rally against the israel-hamas war is underway. allie raffa is there for us. welcome again, i know you speaking with people -- to attend this rally.

what did they tell you about why they decided to make this trip? [screaming] >> what we spoke about an hour ago, this event had not really kicked off yet in earnest, but just in the last 15 or so minutes, it really has kicked off. we saw about a 30 minute period, never seen the first what's expected to be around 35 speakers start at this event. we're up to 30,000 people are expected to attend. i want to give you interviewers a bit of of what we're seeing out here. a motions, as you can see, are very raw. there are young people, elderly people, children, everyone here, they say, has a personal connection to this cause. there are some palestinians, with families stuck in gaza. some without, we've even talked to jewish people here, who are also calling for a cease-fire. in speaking to people out here, the main point they're making, is this war really transcends

politics. it goes beyond disagreements, and differences of religion, of land, that this call for a cease-fire is about basic humanitarian rights. they feel like they need it to be here today to speak for the innocent palestinians who cannot speak for themselves. i want you to take a listen to a bit of a conversation with this family, who came here from ohio last night, just for this event. >> first and foremost, cease-fire to stop the killing. and let them be, like you want any other humanitarian -- let them of the help they need to get back on their feet. >> it's a humanitarian cause. we don't need to take political sides on this. you see these moments of intimate moments of people die left and right, i think it's important -- >> i think every voice counts. anything small, coming here is a big deal. for us to know that we're all standing together. for america to know.

>> alex, we expect demonstrators to start marching soon. that march will extend to the sidewalks of the white house, as well as the ellipse, after that we expect a four hour vigil to be held at this park here in washington d.c.. alex. >> long day ahead. thank you for that. in the meantime, newly-released video shows what it looks like as israel takes a fight against hamas to the massive tunnel network in gaza. an expert on those tunnels joins me next. nels joins me next. pneumococcal pneumonia? i help others. but i need to help protect myself. honestly? i couldn't afford to get sick. i want to be there for this one. i can't if i'm sick. pneumococcal pneumonia is a potentially serious bacterial lung disease. you may be at risk if you're 19 to 64 with certain chronic conditions. or if you're 65 or older. don't pause a moment longer. ask your doctor or pharmacist about getting vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia today.

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warfare expert, and a scholar at the modern war institute at west point. i am glad to welcome you back to this broadcast. it was extraordinary talking with you the last time, and the level of information that you shared with us. to you now, how is israel going about destroying these tunnels? does the idf, first of, all work off of maps? gathered through intelligence? or is it through other means? are there maps that can show you exactly where these tunnels are? >> it's nice to be back, thank you for having me. what we have seen the last couple of days, it's really an attempt by the idf to try and get more information, and get closer to this very vast underground, and military system that hamas has built over the last 20 years. israel is tracking, slowly, but methodically, parts of the tunnel that it knows about, in the hope of exposing areas that it doesn't know about, in the hope of disrupting

communication of hamas inside the tunnels. and also, in the hope of gathering intelligence, finding information, perhaps maps of these tunnels -- that need to be reported, that would help israel get to the part of the tunnel network that they're less familiar with, or that might also, might also not know about. >> so, we know that at least some of the hostages, potentially most are being held underground. has israeli intelligence been able to pinpoint where they are to ensure they don't attack those areas? or would hamas presume that, and thereby move weapons? move communications? move important things they need near the hostages? >> the intelligence that the idf has, it's not the tunnel network of hamas's intelligence that has been gathered in a mosque in the last couple of years. this is something --

however, the hostage situation is different. it's something that they knew. whatever intelligence the idf might have, it has to be something that they have been able to figure out, really, since the operation began, in the attacks began. it's important to understand that tunnels really blind the idf, -- it's very difficult to know where hamas is, where the hostages might be inside the tunnel network, are they together, are they spread out over the entire network, which i presume is the case. and then to try and get intelligence about that. but again, your traditional intelligence gathering techniques do not work when it comes to the underground tunnels. the idf would have tbe very creative, and achieve what is pretty much mission impossible, which is to know what is going on below ground. >> so, is that the expectation of hand to hand combat inside these tunnels? or is israel trying to destroy them to avoid that kind of

warfare? >> there are three ways of destroying the tunnels. one, to actually, you know, know where they are, and where you can -- to the most efficient level. one method is air. this is what's typically done against tunnel threats, using powerful weapons that penetrate the ground and have a very large radius in order to strike as much as possible of the tunnel network. and the other option is to do it from the surface. this would explain why the idf is currently inside the gaza strip, trying to also address the threat from the ground, but not necessarily by going inside the tunnels. the third option is to go inside the tunnels. this is something that really should be done only as a method of last resort. potentially, as you said, to go and rescue the hostages. this is something that the idf -- soldiers might, be right, now entering areas of the tunnels that are presumably safer, as to allow entry of the idf, into,

again gather intelligence about the rest of the network. >> given the nature of these tunnels, how long can someone stay in the tunnel and remain healthy? >> alex, you and i would not be able to stay there for a very long time. it's very difficult to sustain life in a tunnel, first of all, if you didn't play in a long time, ahead in terms of how much electricity you might have, fuel, food, you know, anything that you need. water, to sustain life underground. but, also, a regular human being would not be able to bear these difficult, these harsh conditions. this confined space, the darkness, claustrophobia, it will be very difficult. what we see is that hamas has been doing it for a month already. and we can expect that they have what it takes, to conduct training, and supplies, in order to last much longer than that. but this is the result of

serious, serious training and, and having been underground for extended periods of times in the past. this is something that most forces, even special would find extremely difficult. >> i can imagine. okay, it is good to talk with you. i know i will be speaking with you again. thank you. >> a democrat member of congress just dropped a harsh method to president biden, like he is 2024 election prospects to the israel-hamas war. you probably missed it. so we're going to show it to you. o show it to you. genius! like 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more, so sam can make smart ideas, a brilliant reality! chase for business. make more of what's yours. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today.

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congressman, aly bera, the member of the house foreign affairs and intelligence committee, welcomes here. i'm curious your reaction to the strong statement. how serious of a threat is it? >> i think it's pretty clear. president biden moving assets into the region, sending a strong message saying stay out of this two iranian proxy groups. saying stay out of this. i would like to see a humanitarian aid to palestinian civilians that are struggling right now to get food, water and medicine to them, but, again our mission is to make sure there's not a conflict in the middle east. >> what about stateside? fbi director, chris wray, he sounding the alarm about potential terrorist threats to the u.s.. let's take a listen together to what he said this week. he was on capitol hill. >> here in the united states, our most immediate -- individuals and small groups

will draw inspiration from the events in the middle east to carry out attacks against americans going about their daily lives. >> you are a member of the intel committee. do you agree with that assessment? and what is congress doing to monitor these potential threats both at home and abroad? >> i think we have to stay vigilant here and make sure that any domestic terror threats are snuffed out. i think the fbi is on the case. i agree with what director wray was saying. we really do have to stay aware. in my home district in sacramento county, i'm in contact with our share of police departments. we want to make sure we are watching antisemitic threats. we also want to make sure there are no domestic terror threats. >> do you have reason to believe there are elements of hamas or hezbollah in the united states on our domestic shores? >> it doesn't necessarily have to be hamas in the united states. it could be through social

media, you could see people get radicalized. we saw during the i.s.i.s. threat and so forth. again, we have to stay very concerned and vigilant to make sure that does not happen on our soil. >> so based on what you're saying, what you hope to see happen, the white house is calling on israel to pause its attacks on gaza so people can receive humanitarian aid. israel, as you know, is pushing back, saying it's not going to stop until the hostages are released. the pentagon press secretary said a cease-fire could give hamas time to regroup. we i guess the question is, is a humanitarian pause possible at this point? >> you know, again, seeing innocent palestinian civilians dying, growing without food, water, it is really tragic. i think that is what we want to do. we want to help those civilians. we're not saying don't continue to try to go after hamas. there is different ways to do that. you can use special operatives,

you can do more circle -- surgical strikes. that's not what prime minister netanyahu is indicating he's going to do. i think there's a different way to prosecute this war. without unnecessary civilian deaths. >> so politically, this war is creating division within your party. some democrats say they're disappointed that president biden has not been calling for a cease-fire. that includes your colleague, congresswoman, rashida tlaib, who posted this video. we will take a look at that now. >> we will remember in 2024. >> some might interpret that that she is saying that our president supported a genocide. i'm curious your reaction.

does this concern you relative to the 2024 election on the horizon? >> you know, president biden has done a remarkable job supporting our allies in israel. israel does have a right to exist. israel does have a right to defend itself. and again, president biden i think also understands the suffering of innocent palestinian civilians, which is why they are calling for a humanitarian pause. you know, i don't think in the middle of a war we should be worried about the next campaign, i think we should be doing what we have to do to support freedom and support right if israel to exist. >> let me ask you on a comparatively lighter note, what went down this week with the house on unsuccessfully attempting to punish two of its own. when they both were rejected. did you expect those outcomes? >> you know, i did. folks can say whatever they

want to say. i would have voted against the censure of margaret taylor greene as well. i don't agree with marjorie taylor greene. we. and then with george santos i when -- i think he's guilty, but the committee is doing their investigation and i support the innocent until proven guilty fact. i think you saw a number of democrats voting against that. i did not want to exonerate him until he was innocent, but i also think when -- >> congressman, thank you so much for your time on the saturday. i appreciate it. that will do it for me on this edition of alex witt reports. i will see one pm eastern tomorrow, yasmin vossoughian continues our coverage right now. continues our coverage right now. hey everybody, good afternoon. i'm yasmin vossoughian. we begin this hour with the israel-hamas war that started four weeks ago today. the