forward. that's the goal. he wants the electorate to decide his fate, not a jury. and the questions for all of these judges, for judge cannon, for judge chutkan, for the judge in the hush money case, is can they force that trial schedule forward. judge cannon in florida appears not willing or able to stick by the trial schedule she set. judge chutkan seems fully able and willing to have this trial early on. that's something the president is objecting too. he has pending motions, they're trying to object to those charges and get those decided and push that trial date forward. i think it's up in the air. i would say judge chutkan's case in d.c. is going to go forward and we'll have a verdict before election. >> thank you, our thanks to chuck and vaughn as well who have pivoted over to our next hour of coverage. thank you for joining us. i'll see you back here tomorrow, same time, same place. josé diaz-balart picks up our coverage right now.

good morning, it is 11:00 a.m. eastern, i'm josé diaz-balart. we begin in new york city where tensions are flaring inside the courtroom as former president donald trump has taken the stand in the $250 million civil trial that threatens his sprawling business empire. the case centered around accusations that trump along with his two adult sons inflated various trump assets to get more favorable rates from banks and insurers. trump and his children have denied any wrongdoing, and while trump just took the stand about an hour ago, the judge already accused the former president of treating this appearance like a political rally. the judge has urged trump's lawyers a number of times to control their client. let's go right to nbc's vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse. vaughn. >> reporter: good morning, jose. donald trump just leaving here the courtroom for a morning break after a contentious first 90 minutes of donald trump on the stand and under oath, facing

questions from the new york attorney general's prosecution, but for donald trump much of this was including interjections from the judge, judge engoron who already has fined him twice for violating a gag order for attacking a member of his staff. but for this instance of donald trump on the stand, it was condemnation for the judge for giving in his words a political rally and speeches and not answering the actual questions from the new york attorney general's prosecutor. at one point, the judge ordered donald trump's own attorney, chris kise, ann lena ha baa to sit down after both were making the case that donald trump was free to answer the questions as he sees fit, that this is in their words, an unusual circumstance to have the former president of the united states and in the words of chris kise, the future president of the united states on the stand answering questions under oath and he should be able to build the narrative he sees fit. donald trump on the stand called

this an unfair trial and suggested that he was being politically targeted, which again, was met with condemnation by the judge who at multiple times had suggested that chris kise, his attorney, should pull his client aside and talk with him because he needed to answer the questions put forward by the new york attorney general's office. this is important because in the civil lawsuit, ultimately it is going to be a judge, not a jury that finds the extent to which donald trump and the other defendants, the damages that they face here, and the judge directly suggested inside of this courtroom just moments ago that he would have no choice but to take the negative inferences from donald trump's refusal to directly answer the questions from the new york attorney general's office here. this is notable coming out of this break here, we expect this break to last about ten minutes here to see the extent to which donald trump and his lawyers continue to go about answering questions very much in the same

way. donald trump will only be taking the stand today, jose. there is no day two. the attorney general's office only has hours to play with in their efforts to get substantive answers to their questions from the former president of the united states. >> one day that absolutely guarantees that it's going to be something we haven't seen before. i want to also bring in our legal analyst, catherine christian, a former assistant district attorney at the manhattan d.a.'s office. msnbc contributor, chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official, and dave aronberg, state attorney for palm beach county. dave, take us into what we've seen so far inside the courtroom. this is some intense back and forth, and the judge is not very happy. >> no, they really should have cameras in the courtroom, jose. this is ridiculous. what are they trying to hide? we need a more transparent judicial process because there's going to be so much information spread about what really went on. i know chris kise, trump's lawyer, he was a former solicitor general of florida,

well-respected. he is no political hack, so when he gets up and says that donald trump is the former and future president of the united states, he's clearly playing to an audience of one. they know that trump's goose is cooked in this case. he's losing this case in front of judge engoron, they're playing for the appeal. that's what all this stuff is about. >> so how do you play for the appeal when much of this is really about other things? i mean, the former president saying this is an unfair trial. you know, there are a lot of back and forths that have very little to do with this $250 million lawsuit. >> yeah, i think they're going to try to show that the judge is biased against him. they like to provoke the judge and use that on appeal to say we never got a fair trial in front of this judge. the fact that mar-a-lago was valued between 18 and 28 million really hurts trump to the core because, actually he's right that mar-a-lago's value is way more than that. he only has himself to blame.

he went before the property appraiser's office to say it was worth that little because he wanted to pay lower amounts in taxes. that's why he's on trial here because he artificially lowered prices, while raising it to get more favorable loans. >> does it surprise you that this -- these exchanges have been so tense so early on? >> not entirely, look, i think there are two things going on. one is theater. mr. trump and his lawyers are playing to a different audience, and one is a courtroom setting in which both the judge and the attorney general are trying t establish the facts and the law. the fact that mr. trump is being evasive is not surprising. it also is not going to help him because the judge can and will draw adverse inferences from the fact mr. trump won't answer basic questions. so what happens, jose? mr. trump loses in court. he already has and now he will be assessed penalties and

damages. he may lose the ability to do business in new york state. i take dave's point that the trump team might be playing for an appeal, but so far i haven't seen or heard anything that gives them a substantive appeal. they may be trying to goad the judge into making a mistake so they can argue he's biased, but judges are permitted to run their courtroom and are permitted to instruct witnesses to answer questions, and if mr. trump continues to fail to do that, two things, jose, one, again, the judge can infer from that refusal, from that evasion that the answers wouldn't help mr. trump. and two, i don't believe it gives them substantive grounds for appeal. >> and so katherine, interesting, and you know, kind of taking off on what he was just talking about, new reporting in rolling stone lays out some of the trump team stragyn the case citing sources familiar, quote, the former president and his lawrs are intentionally trying to

provok the judge into a nuclear level, overreaction a bizarre as it may sound, there are attorneys and political adv of trump who have told the foer president that a so-called remand order to put him custody for repeatedly breaching the judge's rulings ght be a good thing legally and cally. how does the judge navigate or deal with that, catherine? >> it's interesting that mr. kise is admitted in florida and practices in florida. that's clear. he does not understand the new york court system because this behavior by mr. trump is not a good strategy for appeal if he were to lose this entire case. and this judge, judge engoron is a very experienced judge, trial judge. he's been through everything. so what he is doing, he has actually been very patient and he's giving mr. trump enough rope. as vaughn said, this is not a jury trial. if this was a jury trial, trump

would have been shut down a long time ago because a judge would never allow this behavior in front of a jury because it would be prejudicial, and it would taint the jury, and the judge would have to constantly send the jury out of the room, back and forth, back and forth as a witness behaved this way, so trying to goad the judge, and even these -- appellate courts, they read, they hear, they can read a transcript, and they're not going to say, oh, the judge was biased. they're going to read the behavior of the witness on the stand, the behavior and the statements that come out of the attorney's mouths. so this is not a good strategy for appeal, at least not in new york city before the new york state appellate courts. >> dave, trump has argued he never defaulted on loans and there's no victim in this case. how does that argument play a part here? >> well, first off, new york law doesn't require there to be a victim who's out-of-pocket. the fact that you made fraudulent misrepresentations is enough. but also, the amount that he got as a benefit was that he got

more advantageous loans and insurance policies because he over valued his properties. that's where he got a benefit and the banks and the insurance companies got hurt. they would have had a more favorable term, if trump had just been honest about his valuation. so there were victims in this case despite the fact that trump did not default. >> yeah, and catherine, today it's donald trump day in that courtroom, but what do you think of the line of questioning today, do you think it's going to differ from what we saw in his sons' testimony last week? >> the only different is because, you know, he's not answering questions. so mr. trump does not use email, so there won't be emails from him, but they're going to try, as they did with both of his sons, show him documents that will talk about the financial statements, though he's -- his tactic, i guess, is to stick with, you know, i am, you know, wealthy. we have a great company.

so with his sons, they had an answer, meaning the a.g.'s office, to every question they asked. when they denied something, here's a financial statement with your signature on it. here's an email with someone discussing what they told you. so that's going to be the same tack they're doing with mr. trump. mr. trump has decided he's just not going to answer questions. he's going to give speeches. i think as the day goes on, i don't think the judge is going to allow him to keep doing that. even if there isn't a jury here, and as i said, it's not a good tactic to just have your client. look, lawyers can only do so much with their clients in terms of controlling them, but if they think it's a good tactic for mr. trump not to answer questions just to give speeches, that is not going to help them on this case and certainly isn't going to help them on appeal, but the attorney general knows the answers to the questions. they were probably not expecting him to give political speeches. those speeches i actually

anticipated he would be giving outside the courtroom and he would have a sense of decorum in the courtroom. silly me. so it's a very different direct exam that i think they are getting from mr. trump. but they like it, the attorney general's office. remember, if he's shut down and cut off, you know, the a.g. is not going to complain. it's not the defense case. it's the plaintiff's case, the a.g.'s case now. >> and vaughn, so -- and to take off catherine's point that it seems like he's giving a lot of political speeches in the courtroom, how are those in trump's orbit planning to use this moment politically? >> his own attorney we should note referenced new polling here from this weekend from "the new york times" and sienna college, showing donald trump beating joe biden in several key swing states. his own attorney inside the courtroom suggested that they were not only talking about a former president of the united

states but the future president of the united states and that this, the witness being the future president of the united states in his attorney's words, led this to be an unusual circumstance in which donald trump could go off and build whatever narrative and respond however he so chooses to in response to the new york attorney general's questions. as to his political team, when you saw them just exiting the courtroom a few moments ago for this morning break, you saw his political team with him, his senior adviser, his press secretary. because for donald trump, so much of this is at the heart of why he is running for that second term. for donald trump, the highest priorities for him is taking on his political opponents were he to get back into the white house again, the politicization of the justice system in his words, and for donald trump, he is as was just outlined by catherine inside the courtroom making the case that this is nothing short of an effort of election

interference on the side of democrats. of course for donald trump, they have fund-raised off the mug shot in fulton county, and you have seen donald trump show up not only today the day he actually had to be there as a witness, but on other days to sit in the courtroom and upon leaving talking to cameras and talking about the way in which he is being targeted. you've also seen this play out on social media in which he has suggested the principle law clerk is, in his words, a political hack, and of course he has already been fined twice by this judge for attacking his principle law clerk, who we should be very clear, there's no evidence of her being a partisan hack. and yet, donald trump has told the masses, millions of his followers that he is being targeted here in the state of new york by those who are simply trying to undermine him politically. yesterday we should note was the marker of one year before the general election in 2024, and donald trump is going to use these trials to the best of his

benefit to the extent that he can. >> vaughn, those images that we just saw a few seconds ago are of the former president going back into that courtroom just minutes ago. so the break continues, but for a short period of time. everybody stay with us. we're going to go to a break, very quickly. we'll be back with much more. you're watching msnbc's coverage of what's going on in new york in the donald trump trial. g on k in the donald trump trial. dise. ...there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪far-xi-ga♪ farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar.

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19 past the hour, and back with us nbc's vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse. msnbc legal analyst, catherine christian, a former assistant district attorney at the manhattan d.a.'s office. msnbc contributor, chuck rosenberg, a former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official and dave aronberg state attorney for palm beach county, florida. so talk a little bit, vaughn, outside the courtroom. it's back in session, and the former president is on the stand, and they're focusing in now on 7 springs, his private estate in new york. >> reporter: right. this is where we're finally getting to a little bit of the gritty part here after about 90 minutes before this morning break of going back and forth between the judge and donald trump's attorneys over donald trump's lack of specifically answering questions from the new york attorney general's prosecutor, and instead in the words of the judge giving a political speech. but when we're actually looking here now, our producer adam

reiss who is inside of the courtroom, of course there are no cameras videoing this in realtime. we're following along with our producer's notes here in which donald trump was asked about the 7 springs property that was valued at $291 million, and donald trump says he acknowledges, yes, i believe that we took a tax deduction and that donald trump, he is saying, quote, i don't remember the fact that he was valuing the property at $56 million. this is where it kind of getting in property to property the new york attorney general's office is building out their case to the extent to which donald trump had signed financial records indicating that he was aware and took responsibility for the -- the assessments of the properties, but then also the extent to which he had a hand in actually determining the value here, and so we saw earlier just before the break, donald trump acknowledging that the property of his trump apartment at trump -- at the trump tower here

in midtown manhattan, was, in fact, overvalued, but he's making the case that his other properties are undervalued here. this is where the new york attorney general's office was hoping to get into the some of the specifics of these cases and getting donald trump who is under oath on the stand for today and today only on some of these questions. that is where the new york attorney general will be able to build their case out more wholly. >> catherine i'm thinking about the narrative being built there in the courtroom. interesting during this back and forth on this issue of 7 springs, one of the -- when the former president answered something, the judge had a very interest ing comment saying -- and i'm just looking for it here. trump goes on, but then the judge says, no, no, stop. you've answered the question and hopefully truthfully, and then catherine, they go into another property and this one in san francisco, 816,900,000.

there was refinancing. i'm just wondering, catherine, what's the narrative here that is being built today? >> well, the judge probably shouldn't have said hopefully truthfully, that's not a good comment for him to make during the testimony. but what the attorney general's lawyers are doing, they want mr. trump to acknowledge either, you know what? i over valued it or say what he's i guess saying that he didn't. it's actually worth more than that. so they want him under oath, on the record as with don jr. and eric to either admit what he can't deny, deny what he can't admit. it's not a perjury trap, you know. that's not the job of the a.g. to like set you up to lie. it's up to the witness to either be truthful or to not tell the truth. and what the a.g. will do, the a.g.'s attorneys will do in their summation when they

argue -- and again, it's not a jury. it will be a summation closing argument for the judge, is they will go over the testimony that even when he was under oath, he refused to acknowledge it wasn't truthful. or when we asked him a question instead of answering the question he went on about how the democrats set him up and didn't answer the question. you can take a negative inference that the answer would have harmed him, that's why he didn't answer it. the a.g. has all of their questions, and they're just waiting for trump to either tell the truth, not tell the truth or give a political speech. >> yeah, i mean, and you know, the a.g.'s office, for example, in the line of questioning, one of them was the question is let me ask it again. it seems as though they're trying to establish clearly that the former president is not interested in answering very direct questions. dave, so i'm just thinking from the defense attorney's perspective, what is it that they're trying to accomplish when it's really a lot of trump

saying this is a political attack and not wanting to answer specific questions. >> yeah, i think as chuck mentioned, this is to rally his base, but also i think it is to goad the judge to make a mistake so that on appeal they could say, see, biased judge. already it looked like the judge, as catherine said, may have said too much by saying hopefully you're telling the truth. judges don't normally do that. maybe that's exactly what trump wants to do here. notice he hasn't taken the fifth. >> not once. >> if you take the fifth in a civil trial, it creates a negative inference. on appeal it makes it harder for trump to prevail. if he can just goad the judge to just go crazy on you, you may actually have a chance. >> i was just wondering about that, the former president certainly experienced in both trials and certainly depositions. he's had over 100 depositions. chuck, what do you think that he is trying to accomplish here?

>> well, a couple of the different answers. first, by answering questions today, he probably feels that the legal landscape around him has settled a bit. you recall, jose, that when he was first deposed in this case, he did invoke his fifth amendment right to refuse to answer questions. at that point he had not yet been charged in various jurisdictions with various crimes. now that he has and probably better understands the legal risks that he's facing, he feels like he can answer questions here. but what is he trying to accomplish here? well, it doesn't seem like he's well acquainted with the truth. he never has been. and so there's probably a value, simply in calling the judge deranged and claiming that this is a witch hunt and trying to rally supporters and raise money because he has his eyes on the different prize, reclaiming the presidency. he will not be constrained by the truth, and he will not adhere to the rules and

procedures of a court. that's to be expected. he will lose this case and he will end up having to pay some damages, maybe significantly so and perhaps lose his ability to do business in new york state. again, he has his eyes on a different venue, a different theater and a different prize. >> and vaughn, i mean, it's very clear that to donald trump what has been going on in this courtroom in manhattan is very important to him. he has been there day after day after day. there's a reason why this is different for donald trump than the other cases that he's involved in. >> right, number one, this is a civil lawsuit here in which the steak of his own family company and its ability to exist here in the state of new york is on the line. don jr. and eric trump essentially the heirs to the trump organization are also

defendants. ivanka trump who is set to testify this wednesday, she is no longer a defendant in this case here. but for donald trump this is the business over the last six decades that he had built to build his notoriety as a real estate tycoon, and now the foundation of that is being directly questioned by the new york attorney general. and the damages, which will be determined by the judge, not a jury here, but by this judge who has repeatedly condemned donald trump and his lawyers in just the last two hours is going to be the one to determine the punishments, and not only the financial penalty that they face but also the extent to which they can continue to operate as a business here. there's a lot on the line. donald trump and his family, you know, they could very well politically lose next year's election in 2024 or not even win the republican primary, but the family business is the one thing that will forever otherwise keep the trump family afloat, and on the criminal trials, there's

much more on the line. if you were to go and testify. in this case, this is now to chuck's point, this is now about trying to at least make the case to the public at large that he took on new york attorney general, letitia james, that he took on the judge overseeing this case here and that he was not going to go quietly, and instead, as he repeatedly says on the campaign trail, that he is the only thing standing in the way of the justice system taking on the american public at large. that is what he is going to walk out of this courtroom this afternoon, and he is going to be able to contend to the american public that he did on this monday afternoon. >> and so, dave, just interesting, they're now focusing in on the triplex that he has in manhattan. trump tower. and they asked him, were you involved in the valuation in 2014? no. did there come a time you felt it was too high? yes. i thought the number was too high. and they lowered it.

so it's interesting, and talk to us i guess from the legal per perspective of this. it's trying to show that in a way trump was able to dictate what the valuation of his properties were or were not? >> the triplex is a real problem for trump. that's his own apartment. >> that he has accepted that was over valued? >> he has to because it's not just over valuation, they over estimated the actual square footage. the square footage was reported as three times the real square footage. so that's not like a rounding error. >> how do you do that? how do you kind of forget that it's three times smaller? >> you know how you do it? that's called fraud, jose. it's fraud. this is not like a subjective mis-estimation. you have tripled the square footage. rulers don't lie. as a result, he's in a lot of trouble. that's why they're going to focus in on that, and of course he was involved in that valuation because he lives

there, so yeah, they got him on this one. >> that was his primary residence, and catherine, now the question is why was the valuation too high of that manhattan apartment. a broker had it at 30,000 square feet, and i have access to the roof, and when you add the roof, you're not that far from 30,000 feet. catherine, the logic there? >> it's -- if you know anything about real estate brokers, they do sort of embellish. this is ridiculous. 30,000 feet and it's -- you know, three times less, so this line of questioning is also to show how much trump was personally involved in the business, in the valuations, in these financial statements, in all of what happened and all of the fraudulent activity alleged by the attorney general. so the same with don jr. and eric jr. i mean, and eric. he was hands on, and what

happens when they are trying to blame it on accountants, and we all know or should know that accountants prepare financial statements and prepare tax returns based on the information that their clients give to them, so if the clients give false information, the financial statements, and the tax returns will contain false information. so it's not a great defense to say my accountants did it when you're the one who provided the information that the accountants put into those financial statements, those documents. so it's -- this is what, you know, the sons, this is what the father, we don't know what the daughter ivanka's going to testify to on wednesday, but it's sort of, yes, we signed them but you know, the accountants did it. or the broker did it. >> right. and dave, i mean, it's also the fact that he actually built the

building. i was thinking if i have a 2,000 square foot house and i add the roof to it, maybe it would be 4,000 square feet, but i just can't do it like the roof. he actually was behind building this building. >> right, he's also saying that i had the disclaimers that said you can't trust anything we say. if you actually had a disclaimer that said that, he could get away with it. that's not what the disclaimer said. he built it, he lives there. he's the head of the company, you can't say i know nothing right now. >> we're going to continue to follow donald trump's testimony in his civil trial new york, and i want to thank my guests this morning, vaughn hillyard, catherine christian, chuck rosenberg and dave aronberg being with us this morning. stick around with us if you could. coming up, we're going to talk about the political implications of donald trump's legal troubles. you're watching "josé diaz-balart reports" on msnbc news. -balart repos"rt on msnbc

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key swing states that biden won in 2020. trump is up by 5 in arizon by 6 in georgia, 5 points in michigan, 11 points in nevada, and up by 4 points in pennsylvania. biden is leading by two points in wisconsin, which is essentially a dead heat there. with us now to talk more about this, tim miller, writer at large for "the bulwark" and a former communications director for jeb bush's campaign. and victoria defrancesco soto dean of the university of arkansas. victoria, let's preface this by saying we are a full year away from the 2024 election, a lot is going to happen between now and then, but if you are on the biden campaign, what do you see in this polling? >> i see a lot of problems in this poll, but i think the bigger problem is in what folks are saying in terms of the direction of the country because another poll that came out, jose, a couple of days ago was

that are we on the right track, are we on the wrong track? 76% of americans see us on the wrong track and among those obviously overwhelmingly republicans say that but 56% of democrats say that, and then 70 plus independents say that so this is a huge worry for the biden campaign, at the macro level, both are in a funk, but then when we're looking at these battleground states, this is a huge issue of concern and we still don't even know if no labels is going to run someone as a third-party candidate. but right now with all of these numbers together, there's cause for worry. >> yeah, and tim, i mean, as we're speak trump is taking the witness stand in one of the many cases against him right now. how is he somehow managing to i guess have support despite all of these legal troubles? >> yeah, i share the cause for

worry. i think that it's also important to just kind of remember here both of these guys are deeply unpopular. even if you look at that "new york times" poll, both have approval ratings in the 30s. so really the election is going to be determined, if it ends up being these two, by people that don't like both candidates. double haters as the pollsters call them. i think that trump has a greater hold on the republican party, which as we're seeing in the primary is very united behind him. i think biden's numbers are dipping among some people in the democratic coalition, younger voters, some voters of color. do some of those people come back to him once there's a real focus on a head-to-head with trump? i think probably. but i think what you're seeing right now in these poll numbers are are republicans united behind donald trump, and some of these swing voters and even some democrats frustrated with biden, either because of the economy, maybe because of foreign policy in certain cases, maybe other policies right now saying

they're not with him, but we're a year out and i don't know that the real possibility of donald trump being president again has sunk in for some of those voters. >> and tim, let's remember back to 2015, 2016 polls got it way wrong when it came to that election. >> right. >> and 2011, a gallop survey had barack obama down by 8 points to a generic republican candidate. he went on to handily win re-election. i'm just thinking how much importance should we be placing on polls a year away from the election when a lot of the things, as you say, tim, haven't sunk in yet? >> i mean, i think it's important to put them in context and perspective. to me it is okay to be a little concerned that donald trump, who tried to overthrow our democracy is winning in presidential polls right now. it's legitimate to have some concerns about that. but as you're saying, you do have to put all this stuff into context, and we have a long history, a recent history of these polls not being right. including you go back to 2016,

but i go back to the midterms. i think that pollsters are having trouble i think gauging certain people, right? now we're not in the land line world. that's one of the things. in another thing, they're trying to gauge again people that are deeply unhappy with all of their options. you know, and you look at france, for example, there's a poll for the election where macron's numbers were worse than biden's. he ends up winning in a landslide. there's a lot of unhappiness right now in the electorate here and throughout the world. you're seeing that in the world. i think pollsters are having trouble trying to figure out how to measure if someone's saying they don't like joe biden, is that them expressing frustration with something or is that them saying they're really going to consider donald trump, and i think it's hard to kind of parse that out. >> yeah, and i mean, victoria d it as "the new york times" points out,f e former president is convicted and sentenced around 6% of vors across arizona, georgia, michigan, nevada, and wisconsin say they would switch those votes to biden.

that would be enough to decide the election. a conviction could very well, victoria, change the dynamics of this race. >> this election, the past election, they were won in the margins, right? they were won in the margins of these swing states, and i think another piece i want to add on to to what tim is saying is that we've gotten into a new normal of low poll ratings. so you know, donald trump really never went above 40% in terms of approval. biden has peaked over 40%, and you know, a couple of years ago, a couple of decades ago, that would have been untenable, but now that we see that this is the new normal, we saw that the midterm elections went a lot better for the democrats than suspected by what we saw with the low favorability with the president. so i think the point is we're in a new normal of hyperpolarized era, and within that every vote counts, and to that point, that margin in those swing states,

that's going to be pivotal. >> and i'm just wondering, tim, if -- and there is some talk if it's not joe biden as the democratic front runner for 2024, and if it's not donald trump for 2024, it would be a far different field. >> yeah, you know, generic democrat and generic republican always poll the best, right? because they're not a real person. they don't have any foibles that voters can project on. when you get into an actual situation, you know, i think if joe biden didn't run, kamala harris would most likely be the nominee, especially at this late of date. she has some unfavorability as well. if it was not donald trump and you had a nikki haley or ron desantis, do the maga voters that have turned out in huge numbers that were non-voters before 2016, do they vote for nikki haley? or do they go back to not voting? i think maybe not voting. so i'm not sure that it's as

crystal clear as some might thing that it would be better for either party to switch horse. >> to paraphrase the grateful dead, what a long strange trip it is becoming. tim miller and victoria defrancesco soto, thank you so much for being with us this morning. up next, already a contentious morning as former president trump testifies in his civil fraud trial in new york. what's been happening, the very latest when we come right back. you're watching "josé diaz-balart reports" on msnbc. ck you're watching "josé diaz-balart reports" on msnbc. introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. [camera shutter sfx] he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. [ned?] it can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing it for nearly a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions

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happening now, in a new york courtroom, former president trump testifying in his $250 million civil fraud trial and while he just began his testimony less than two houring ago, things have been contentious between trump, his legal team. the judge telling trump not to give speeches, just answer questions. back with us, vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse. former assistant district attorney and dave aaronburg. vaughn, get us up to speed on what's been going on inside the courtroom. >> in the last two minutes, again, the judge once again telling donald trump, interjecting during the questioning from the new york attorney general's prosecutor, donald trump interjecting and ordering donald trump to answer the prosecutor's questions. we have seen this play out repeatedly over the last two hours. donald trump is only going to be

on stand today so the time in which the new york attorney general's office may ask him questions is limited. in the last few minutes, he's been asked about multiple properties and we're getting to the nitty-gritty in which donald trump is being asked about the values of his properties and the extent to which he was part of the process in determining the value of the properties or the value that was put on the financial documents. what the prosecution is doing here in realtime is laying out just mar-a-lago for example from the point of purchase in which the trump's family took over the property to now and asking him about the increased value of the properties over time here. donald trump has acknowledged that the price points of his midtown apartment at trump tower was in fact over valued but he has made the case that his other

properties were undervalued. donald trump, for her colleague, chloe, who is inside of the courtroom, for the last several minutes has been leaning back in the witness chair with his arms folded, swaying back and forth. this has been a tense two hours here between the judge, trump, and attorneys on both sides and for donald trump, he has a full afternoon ahead of answering many more questions here from a new york attorney general's office. >> and vaughn, important to state that the former president has already released his office, his campaign has released a fund raising letter out of this. >> absolutely. this is very much a part of donald trump trying to get benefit to the extent that he can from these not only the criminal trials that await him, but in this case, the civil lawsuit here. this is not the only day he's been at the courthouse.

every time he's gone in front of cameras and made the case to the public that he is defends himself from unjust prosecution and in this case, an unjust lawsuit, and for donald trump, he is instead of pleading the fifth and not answering the questions, he is in fact under oath taking the questions from the new york attorney general's office on this monday. >> vaughn in new york city. thank you so very much. catherine, what's your reaction so far? >> my reaction is he has not helped his case. this civil court case whatsoever. but that's not his goal. so his followers, his base, that's who he's speaking to. but for the civil fraud case, he hasn't helped himself. he's in fact hurt himself. many of his answers you can say were incredible and some of his answers he didn't even answer the question, which is why the judge said there would be a negative inference. so he hasn't helped his civil fraud case. he may have helped himself politically with his base. >> yeah, dave, talk about how he's using words just on the golf course in scotland, he

says, i was in no rush to build. it's the greatest golf course ever built. one of the greatest pieces of land i have ever seen. this is not exactly a specific reaction or answer to a specific question, right? what are your thoughts on this is this. >> he's not your typical defendant. he is running for president and his supporters love this. he goes up there and he's defiant and he's talking when he shouldn't be and he's bragging but that's what they love. he's playing to them. and now when the judge chastises him, it only helps him more because nothing motivated maga like grievance and mar tir. >> what's the significance of ivanka being on there? >> i think she will say she knows nothing because eric and donald trump jr. who were more involved, she was dropped from the case, they said she knew

nothing. >> so who knows something? >> according to them. they blame it on the accountants or allen weisselberg. they're going to say our hands are not dirty. a summary judgment has been ordered. this is really about damages. my biggest question is will ivanka get the assets of the trump organization before the organization is dissolved because she's not a party to this case. so conceivably, the trump organization and donald trump could unload it all into her name -- >> before this is decide? >> before the order is done to dissolve the corporation. i don't know if that's allowable but it's something i wouldn't put past them. >> catherine, jack smith is urging judge chutkan to reject the media's request to have cameras inside the courtroom. what do you think of that? >> what's basically their position is the law says

camera's not allowed. they didn't go overboard and say we didn't want cameras. they're just reciting law to the judge. they're going to be on the side of what the law says is correct as opposed to you know, we don't want the cameras in. i think you know, cameras should be in this civil fraud case so people can see actually how donald trump is acting in a court of law. and but the judge in this case decided not to. >> catherine, christian, and dave, thank you both so much for being with us this morning. that wraps up the hour. you can reach me on social media. thank you for the privilege of your time. andrea mitchell picks up with more news after a quick break. more news after a quick break. ax gels cold & flu relief with more concentrated power because the only thing dripping should be your style. plop plop fizz fizz winter warriors with alka-seltzer plus. have fun, sis! ♪♪

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right now, high stakes testimony. donald trump takes the stand in new york city in his civil fraud trial. the former president attacking the judge and new york state's attorney general even before he walked into the courtroom in a case that could bar the trump organization from doing business in new york and subject the company to hundreds of millions of dollars in fines. >> i am certain he will engage in name calling and taunts and race baiting and call this a witch